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Resource Union Street - Casual Discussion Thread
- Thread starter TMan87
- Start date
I decided to move this discussion here, as it's more pertinent to this thread than to the Movepool Feedback thread. I think that the idea of widescale Level Syncing could be difficult to reconcile with certain competitive aspects of our game. What incentive does a player have to advance their Pokemon to the higher levels if said Pokemon will be more likely to be demoted in serious PvP matches? Obviously, it's important to give a fighting chance in competitive formats to newer players and to players who can't dedicate enough time to BBP to fill several profile posts with Level 4 Pokemon, but I wonder if we'll see a reduction in attempts to progress once players realize that their rewards are impermanent; e.g. that—to use an arbitrary example—the "maxed" (Mega) Gengar that took several Facilities worth of grinding to obtain is effectively "stuck" at level 1 or 2 when they try to use it in the next tournament.
I don't think level syncing will be used in that way. PvP modes are stated (at least internally) to be ones where you can actually make full use of the toys you earned through facilities; I believe it to be the place to use that Mega Gengar, actually. At the very least that stands for TLG where no upper level boundary is in place right now.
PvP may be restricted to lower levels on some occasions, sure (special formats or more beginner-focused PvP, maybe), but to think that you will never be able to use your more powerful mons does not line up with the intended direction of the Level system.
PvP may be restricted to lower levels on some occasions, sure (special formats or more beginner-focused PvP, maybe), but to think that you will never be able to use your more powerful mons does not line up with the intended direction of the Level system.
i really doubt that lower level syncing will be as widespread as you're suggesting. the general rule since forever has been more prestigious events = higher leveled mons, and gen 9 so far has been no exception to this. you want a legend? you want advanced techniques? get some high level mons and storm in.
the idea of level syncing, as far as i'm aware, is to increase accessibility in events to people without high-leveled mons. we're already seeing this with some tower matches, another example is if there's some massive tournament then we'd want newbies to be able to participate. this would probably be accomplished by having a lower-leveled pool with decreased rewards.
the idea of level syncing, as far as i'm aware, is to increase accessibility in events to people without high-leveled mons. we're already seeing this with some tower matches, another example is if there's some massive tournament then we'd want newbies to be able to participate. this would probably be accomplished by having a lower-leveled pool with decreased rewards.
Currently, there is very limited counterplay to Sleep at low levels, creating situations where all you can do is sit there and use Snore (which is a pretty bad move) as your opponent puts you to Sleep repeatedly. Slower mons are in an especially rough spot as they can't even get a Safeguard or Taunt off first without spending the combo token to combine it with a priority move, and even then the first Sleep could come in a combo itself to bypass Taunt and guarantee its accuracy, and Safeguard, being a screen, can be removed with Brick Break, Psychic Fangs, or Defog.
I think there needs to be something in place to prevent chain-sleeping in particular, such as adjusting the wake-up time, or granting sleep immunity for a turn after waking up.
Here are a couple examples of this happening in practice to show this isn't just doomer posting:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...taurus-lv1-b5p3-singles.3712983/#post-9456040
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/realgam-tower-theever.3713757/#post-9476041
I think there needs to be something in place to prevent chain-sleeping in particular, such as adjusting the wake-up time, or granting sleep immunity for a turn after waking up.
Here are a couple examples of this happening in practice to show this isn't just doomer posting:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...taurus-lv1-b5p3-singles.3712983/#post-9456040
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/realgam-tower-theever.3713757/#post-9476041
I agree with TheEver here. The issue seems to be that Sleep was both directly and indirectly buffed during the generational shift: the randomness of its duration was removed in favor of the longer option, and its primary and secondary counters were nerfed in various ways; as an example, Safeguard was never before considered a removable screen. A direct change to sleep could definitely resolve this problem simply and efficiently.
I can't help blaming this trend on the loss of our premier anti-Sleep options, though. In essence, there are two critical flaws with Gen IX Sleep Talk. First, the move is available only at "endgame" or "post-game" levels of development, coming online four levels after sleep itself. This is a rare contradiction of the pre-release design philosophy of making counterplay options available within 1 level of the moves they're supposed to beat. While reliable reliable sleep protection still exists within this range thanks to the existence of Magic Coat, this move's comparatively sparse distribution is insufficient to balance sleep's current effectiveness.
Second, Sleep Talk is being pushed out of viability due to changes to "lottery" moves' selection mechanisms. The threat of taking what often amounted to one of four 8+ BAP SE attacks from Sleep Talk tempered the sleep condition quite well, leaving it as a potent defensive option when ordering second with Pokemon whose learnsets were already full of traditional sub-eating moves. In contrast, new restrictions slash Sleep Talk's damage output, as surprisingly few damaging moves that cost <5 EN are available at lower levels, and they all struggle to compete with the 15-damage ceiling imposed on oncoming hits from a player aiming to preserve the condition: in the "design standard" matchup between two Pokemon with 8 (Special) Attack and 6 (Special) Defense, a sleeping attacker that's lucky enough to find a super-effective, STAB- and Silk Scarf-esque-Item-boosted attack deals 22 damage at maximum. While a +7-damage spread is useful, it is quickly undermined by the fact that Sleep Talk can only call an individual move once per battle, often resulting in BAP and type effectiveness becoming less ideal as the battle progresses; therefore, a Sleep Talk user is promptly stuck sifting through a dwindling movepool for diminishing results.
This is ignoring the dearth of useful Status moves that fulfill Sleep Talk's EN criterion. Phazing moves are an attractive way to escape a chain sleeper, but work only once before a Pokemon is limited to direct attacks and single-stage boosting moves. Moreover, if this happens to occur in an otherwise good matchup, the sleeping Pokemon's player is forced to sacrifice their advantage and (likely) switch out against the sleep setter's replacement, effectively inverting the outcome through the use of a single status.
I can't help blaming this trend on the loss of our premier anti-Sleep options, though. In essence, there are two critical flaws with Gen IX Sleep Talk. First, the move is available only at "endgame" or "post-game" levels of development, coming online four levels after sleep itself. This is a rare contradiction of the pre-release design philosophy of making counterplay options available within 1 level of the moves they're supposed to beat. While reliable reliable sleep protection still exists within this range thanks to the existence of Magic Coat, this move's comparatively sparse distribution is insufficient to balance sleep's current effectiveness.
Second, Sleep Talk is being pushed out of viability due to changes to "lottery" moves' selection mechanisms. The threat of taking what often amounted to one of four 8+ BAP SE attacks from Sleep Talk tempered the sleep condition quite well, leaving it as a potent defensive option when ordering second with Pokemon whose learnsets were already full of traditional sub-eating moves. In contrast, new restrictions slash Sleep Talk's damage output, as surprisingly few damaging moves that cost <5 EN are available at lower levels, and they all struggle to compete with the 15-damage ceiling imposed on oncoming hits from a player aiming to preserve the condition: in the "design standard" matchup between two Pokemon with 8 (Special) Attack and 6 (Special) Defense, a sleeping attacker that's lucky enough to find a super-effective, STAB- and Silk Scarf-esque-Item-boosted attack deals 22 damage at maximum. While a +7-damage spread is useful, it is quickly undermined by the fact that Sleep Talk can only call an individual move once per battle, often resulting in BAP and type effectiveness becoming less ideal as the battle progresses; therefore, a Sleep Talk user is promptly stuck sifting through a dwindling movepool for diminishing results.
This is ignoring the dearth of useful Status moves that fulfill Sleep Talk's EN criterion. Phazing moves are an attractive way to escape a chain sleeper, but work only once before a Pokemon is limited to direct attacks and single-stage boosting moves. Moreover, if this happens to occur in an otherwise good matchup, the sleeping Pokemon's player is forced to sacrifice their advantage and (likely) switch out against the sleep setter's replacement, effectively inverting the outcome through the use of a single status.
pasting this round of updates from the #minor-announcements channel from the discord:
posting these in the casual thread is a temporary measure. i don't want to post patch notes for a handbook that isn't finished.
really hoping to avoid any early instances of "changed this rule" "changed it back" "changed it again" "changed it yet again" that can happen when a fresh rule is being hammered out, in the permanent patch note record on the handbook.
that said, i also fleshed out much of r2.5 "The Switching Phase". direct spelling/grammar feedback to the bug report thread; and balance feedback to this thread here. much of the work was trying to ensure the rules produced some sort of coherent result at all in battles with three or more teams, or with two or more trainers per team.
brief notes on topics above:
my thoughts on status here and here remain true.
i see thoughts along the lines of, "this status warps the game, because not every pokemon can answer it." that's literally the point of the changes. that means that the status charges are working correctly.
there are armies of pokemon capable of helping your team with status. there are pokemon with safeguard, which completely prevents major status and select other nasties, for four whole rounds. there are pokemon who can remove all major status, from all of your team members, including your benched team members. there are mons with natural cure or shed skin or early bird. you will have to run them, or status will body you. you'll have to buy and run a Lum Berry, or an Electric Seed or Misty Seed, or Adventure Rules that gives you stacking damage forever for each negative stat stage or status you have inflicted on you.
these counter-options demand that you spend your action, or your combo token, to enact them... just as status does. their strength is exactly that of the status conditions that they combat. and they exist early. safeguard is Level 1. aromatherapy and heal bell are Level 1.
it is correct that these options are not on every Pokemon, and if you want to fight status, your team will have to include status-fighting Pokemon or your backpack will have to include status-fighting items. it is ALSO true that these options come at an opportunity cost, taking valuable slots where you could be running bulky or damaging Pokemon, or you could be running damage-racing or matchup-controlling items.
GOOD. THEY SHOULD.
by running all beefslabs, you should be by necessity choosing to forego what those mons tend to lack, which is support tools. by taking metagross, who offers screens and an entry hazard as its primary form of team support, you are foregoing something like bronzong, which can do that, set up safeguard, spread confusion, paralysis and sleep, and iron defense body press up in front of dangerous physical attackers. what metagross can do in those situations, is hit things. maybe try to control matchups with pursuit and block. maybe manipulate speed. there's a tradeoff to be made.
the point is, in order for utility mons to see any use, their utility has to be strong enough to give a shit about. arguments can be made that a given status is too sacky, or to universally applicable, or too mindless. arguments that are essentially complaints, about having to consider status, will be politely ignored.
you might point out that certain truly cracked mons like dragonite possess winning statlines with safeguard, heal bell, screens, and so on. well, buy them. use them, prepare for them. there will always be a strongest mon. it might be dnite, or a mon that beats it, or an unrelated mon. dnite knowing heal bell, or ttar knowing thunder wave, or garchomp knowing spikes is not sufficient cause for me to nerf heal bell, thunder wave, or spikes into uselessness because a high-stat mon "might abuse" it.
what it means is that dnite can role-compress bruiser and cleric into one team slot for you, so your other teammates can be, say, hazard setters and a wall, or another bruiser and a pivot, and so on. you might use garchomp as a bruiser + hazard setter, and a more dedicated cleric. but you're gonna want a cleric, or have a really good reason not to have a cleric.
you already want hazard removal, or have a really good reason not to have a hazard remover. you already want a statblock, or a good reason not to have a statblock. status is the same deal. now there will be foes attacking you via the angle of status, and you will have to either deal with it or lose.
this wall of text got a bit away from me, but I tried to get into serious detail with this post. tl;dr - i will be doing work to clarify the use case of each status. i will not be doing any work to weaken status, and you should not expect such.
posting these in the casual thread is a temporary measure. i don't want to post patch notes for a handbook that isn't finished.
really hoping to avoid any early instances of "changed this rule" "changed it back" "changed it again" "changed it yet again" that can happen when a fresh rule is being hammered out, in the permanent patch note record on the handbook.
that said, i also fleshed out much of r2.5 "The Switching Phase". direct spelling/grammar feedback to the bug report thread; and balance feedback to this thread here. much of the work was trying to ensure the rules produced some sort of coherent result at all in battles with three or more teams, or with two or more trainers per team.
brief notes on topics above:
- sleep users of note, by descending bst, are as follows: [link 1] [link 2]
- we're in agreement that the scariest things on these lists are gallade and necturna, who are in the sing/hypnosis list and aren't hitting that shit without help (and have better things to be doing), right?
- consensus on the sleep powder/spore list, is that these pokemon could use a potent turn-stealing move to swing their damage races against existing statblock titans (much like how they're designed to use these moves to buy turns in-game, in exchange for sheer bulk or power)
- these pokemon are gaining a step of advantage to attack, or to set up, each time they land sleep uninterrupted. but they are doing so at a genuine cost to tempo, by burning precious steps within a deadline -- steps until their opponent can switch to an answer, or even steps before their opponent orders second -- repeatedly applying sleep and making no progress for that step. they accrue turn advantage when left alone, but their rate of progress is slower than other threats, which is a tangible and meaningful trade-off. they can spend their combo token to get their sleep off, but given that a mon's combo token is essentially a free non-damaging turn on any mon, that too is a meaningful resource. they aren't getting these turns "for free" in any format except switch=off.
- from those points, i conclude that sleep is strong but appropriately so, as an intended strength of the mons that have it. if adjustments happened, it would be reducing the coin-flip of hitting hypnosis, and i'd likely be leaving sleep powder and especially spore alone. i'm open to a once-per-subject-per-round restriction if changes are needed after that, but that's about it.
- it also wouldn't be adjustments to sleep talk. making its usefulness diminish over time is intended. "sleep talk users" shouldn't be a proactive gameplan. sleep talk is your plan c or d against status when other measures fail. this then segues nicely into general status talk.
- general status notes:
- people wanted ways to threaten the opponent other than being big and beefy, and doing more damage and taking less. and wanted ways for non-statbrick mons to shine. guess what; those pokemon quite often dispense status. the key to making such mons' contributions valuable is making status potent, and that means getting status inflicted on you has to suck serious ass. it has to suck just as bad as taking a bunch of damage sucks. if you can comfortably ignore it, in your teambuilding and in your matchup positioning, then it's not a meaningful contribution, and the pokemon built around it do not matter!
- that means making each status more potent in its niche. two examples, where i get to use the rare *third* indent, that are performing well:
- poison! i really like where poison has ended up. it has both high-synergy users (bulky pokemon that can stall) and high-value targets (those same bulky pokemon that naturally last several turns; it's fine if the users and targets overlap). its strong use cases are clear and its weak use cases are clear. full marks!
- burn! another very clear case of when you should use it, and when you shouldn't. its user synergy is a bit situation-dependant (e.g. are you even facing a physical attacker, and does -12 bap on average even change the hits it takes to KO you), and it has the clearest targets of any status in the game. near-full marks.
- both of these statuses often see both general use in combinations (attack + wisp to live for 1 extra turn is much better than raw wisp); and see standalone use by their high-synergy users (dusknoir can live 2 or 3 more turns in front of a super-effective burned attacker compared to an unburned one, due to their already massive defenses.)
my thoughts on status here and here remain true.
i see thoughts along the lines of, "this status warps the game, because not every pokemon can answer it." that's literally the point of the changes. that means that the status charges are working correctly.
there are armies of pokemon capable of helping your team with status. there are pokemon with safeguard, which completely prevents major status and select other nasties, for four whole rounds. there are pokemon who can remove all major status, from all of your team members, including your benched team members. there are mons with natural cure or shed skin or early bird. you will have to run them, or status will body you. you'll have to buy and run a Lum Berry, or an Electric Seed or Misty Seed, or Adventure Rules that gives you stacking damage forever for each negative stat stage or status you have inflicted on you.
these counter-options demand that you spend your action, or your combo token, to enact them... just as status does. their strength is exactly that of the status conditions that they combat. and they exist early. safeguard is Level 1. aromatherapy and heal bell are Level 1.
it is correct that these options are not on every Pokemon, and if you want to fight status, your team will have to include status-fighting Pokemon or your backpack will have to include status-fighting items. it is ALSO true that these options come at an opportunity cost, taking valuable slots where you could be running bulky or damaging Pokemon, or you could be running damage-racing or matchup-controlling items.
GOOD. THEY SHOULD.
by running all beefslabs, you should be by necessity choosing to forego what those mons tend to lack, which is support tools. by taking metagross, who offers screens and an entry hazard as its primary form of team support, you are foregoing something like bronzong, which can do that, set up safeguard, spread confusion, paralysis and sleep, and iron defense body press up in front of dangerous physical attackers. what metagross can do in those situations, is hit things. maybe try to control matchups with pursuit and block. maybe manipulate speed. there's a tradeoff to be made.
the point is, in order for utility mons to see any use, their utility has to be strong enough to give a shit about. arguments can be made that a given status is too sacky, or to universally applicable, or too mindless. arguments that are essentially complaints, about having to consider status, will be politely ignored.
you might point out that certain truly cracked mons like dragonite possess winning statlines with safeguard, heal bell, screens, and so on. well, buy them. use them, prepare for them. there will always be a strongest mon. it might be dnite, or a mon that beats it, or an unrelated mon. dnite knowing heal bell, or ttar knowing thunder wave, or garchomp knowing spikes is not sufficient cause for me to nerf heal bell, thunder wave, or spikes into uselessness because a high-stat mon "might abuse" it.
what it means is that dnite can role-compress bruiser and cleric into one team slot for you, so your other teammates can be, say, hazard setters and a wall, or another bruiser and a pivot, and so on. you might use garchomp as a bruiser + hazard setter, and a more dedicated cleric. but you're gonna want a cleric, or have a really good reason not to have a cleric.
you already want hazard removal, or have a really good reason not to have a hazard remover. you already want a statblock, or a good reason not to have a statblock. status is the same deal. now there will be foes attacking you via the angle of status, and you will have to either deal with it or lose.
this wall of text got a bit away from me, but I tried to get into serious detail with this post. tl;dr - i will be doing work to clarify the use case of each status. i will not be doing any work to weaken status, and you should not expect such.
I want to clarify that my issue is not with Sleep as a whole, but with what I'm calling chain-sleeping. I have no issue with Sleep being a strong tool in the kit of a mon.
I think it's fair to expect having turns taken away by status/conditions. I also think it's fair to expect to be able to act at least sometimes, and Sleep currently has the potential to take away all of a mon's turns, or at least all of their useful ones (you're not winning battles spamming Protect and Snore). Yes, the counterplay options do exist, but the opponent will also play smart and can maneuver their sleep spammers into matchups where they can spam sleep to cheese away turns freely, and support them with mons that can remove Screens and Terrain, or remove a Chesto or Lum Berry, etc (and they may just be able to do it themselves too). Even if you're not 100-0ing something with Sleep > move > Sleep > move > so on, you can certainly accumulate enough of an advantage in what really feels like a cheap way.
Again, I want to reiterate I'm specifically focused on this one particular use of the Sleep condition being unfun to deal with, that is the whole chain-sleeping thing. My gripe is not with Sleep as a whole. I think there's a healthy middle ground between "sleep is strong, I should keep it in mind when teambuilding/ordering" and "holy shit can I get a turn in edgewise please". I like the idea of the once-per-round-per-mon limit, I think a status that puts your opponent mostly out of commission for two turns is still plenty strong with it.
I think it's fair to expect having turns taken away by status/conditions. I also think it's fair to expect to be able to act at least sometimes, and Sleep currently has the potential to take away all of a mon's turns, or at least all of their useful ones (you're not winning battles spamming Protect and Snore). Yes, the counterplay options do exist, but the opponent will also play smart and can maneuver their sleep spammers into matchups where they can spam sleep to cheese away turns freely, and support them with mons that can remove Screens and Terrain, or remove a Chesto or Lum Berry, etc (and they may just be able to do it themselves too). Even if you're not 100-0ing something with Sleep > move > Sleep > move > so on, you can certainly accumulate enough of an advantage in what really feels like a cheap way.
Again, I want to reiterate I'm specifically focused on this one particular use of the Sleep condition being unfun to deal with, that is the whole chain-sleeping thing. My gripe is not with Sleep as a whole. I think there's a healthy middle ground between "sleep is strong, I should keep it in mind when teambuilding/ordering" and "holy shit can I get a turn in edgewise please". I like the idea of the once-per-round-per-mon limit, I think a status that puts your opponent mostly out of commission for two turns is still plenty strong with it.
Can we re-add Safety Goggles to BBP with their ingame effect of blocking weather damage and powder moves? I'm not sure why we nuked it in the first place, and more counterplay to Sleep Powder and Spore sounds like a good thing.
Along similar lines, I remember there had been an idea for Heavy Duty Boots where the holder would remove an entry hazard on sendin (possibly after taking the effect of the hazard? It was a while ago) that had been discarded because it put on the wrong kind of pressure for a player to have that in their profile. Now that we have the backpack system, an item like this seems like it could be viable again.
Along similar lines, I remember there had been an idea for Heavy Duty Boots where the holder would remove an entry hazard on sendin (possibly after taking the effect of the hazard? It was a while ago) that had been discarded because it put on the wrong kind of pressure for a player to have that in their profile. Now that we have the backpack system, an item like this seems like it could be viable again.
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the sheet is done: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19qo1Pj4oN_OMN2vnMeR7ZlH-ej3YoxfQGCQAuwLb0a4/edit?usp=sharing (this will live on my profile)
i wish it was a little easier to list only fully evolved pokemon that nobody owns, but honestly this game isn't that big, if you just think of a random mon then odds are no one has it.
there was a bit of discussion about first send vs second send in tlg affecting the outcome, but in practice the winrates were about equal. that said, looking at the games i noticed first send and second send definitely favored different strategies.
first send is definitely the more aggressive of the two. you start with a mon that's really annoying to order against, because it either beats the entire opposing team or just has a lot of tricks, then you try to secure a decisive advantage quickly with second order and finish the opponent off while they're unable to switch the following round. when you aren't using this strategy, you're kind of ceding advantage to second send.
second send, on the other hand, is a lot more matchup control-focused. you go with your best answer to the opposing threat, then your main goal is to follow the opponent when they switch out to their counter (or prevent them from switching entirely). the first sender, of course, will typically use their own eject button/sticky barb/etc to throw a wrench in this, though more aggressive options definitely exist (one example being megas, which try to just crush all opposition with overwhelming stats).
looking forward to league circuit!
i wish it was a little easier to list only fully evolved pokemon that nobody owns, but honestly this game isn't that big, if you just think of a random mon then odds are no one has it.
there was a bit of discussion about first send vs second send in tlg affecting the outcome, but in practice the winrates were about equal. that said, looking at the games i noticed first send and second send definitely favored different strategies.
first send is definitely the more aggressive of the two. you start with a mon that's really annoying to order against, because it either beats the entire opposing team or just has a lot of tricks, then you try to secure a decisive advantage quickly with second order and finish the opponent off while they're unable to switch the following round. when you aren't using this strategy, you're kind of ceding advantage to second send.
second send, on the other hand, is a lot more matchup control-focused. you go with your best answer to the opposing threat, then your main goal is to follow the opponent when they switch out to their counter (or prevent them from switching entirely). the first sender, of course, will typically use their own eject button/sticky barb/etc to throw a wrench in this, though more aggressive options definitely exist (one example being megas, which try to just crush all opposition with overwhelming stats).
looking forward to league circuit!
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I'd like to add to TheEver's point regarding chain sleeping being an issue. There's nothing preventing Yawn from being used on a sleeping target, meaning that a battle could easily go like this:
Round 1: Yawn - X - X
Round 2: Protect - X - Yawn
As long as the opponent cannot hit through Protect or doesn't have status/sleep immunity, they can't do a thing! That's definitely an issue.
I think a good solution to this would be for Yawn to fail against already sleeping targets, or something along those lines.
I will attach my battle vs Snarguffle as an example here.
Round 1: Yawn - X - X
Round 2: Protect - X - Yawn
As long as the opponent cannot hit through Protect or doesn't have status/sleep immunity, they can't do a thing! That's definitely an issue.
I think a good solution to this would be for Yawn to fail against already sleeping targets, or something along those lines.
I will attach my battle vs Snarguffle as an example here.
Most of the new status conditions seem intriguing. I'm just glad you tweaked paralysis away from a (20 per counter)% chance of action loss before my Realgam Tower run could be affected!
I think some of the changes to Sleep are unnecessary, though. Sleep's power level was generally appropriate for the stated status-friendly design philosophy; the problem was that low-level counterplay was weak or absent, leading to an exaggerated dominance of certain strategies at those levels. By hindering repetitive sleep spam through the addition of a "cooldown" period—although someone will have to explain to me how a Pokemon can be afflicted by 2a-sleep twice in a single round when it hasn't woken up by the time its foe can use the move again—and likely earlier access to Uproar, the least competitive aspects of the status seem to have been resolved.
To that end, the other modifications seem gratuitous. Restless tokens seem to restrict a Sleep user's options just a little too harshly; yes, entry hazards and elite stat-boosting moves are enticing "rewards" for landing the status, but Snore/Sleep Talk chip and Sleep healing result in a worsened damage spread. Moreover, this passive healing blunts the chip damage inflicted by other conditions, which is often a major contribution to the damage and threat of the status users for whom Sleep is the best defense against foes that can't be handled by Burn. Finally, certain moves' new guaranteed 1-action Sleep duration is inherently flawed from a balance perspective, as it forces an artificial, Speed-related dichotomy upon Sleep users: fast Pokemon can only use these moves defensively, but slow Pokemon can reap this benefit while also enjoying a free action to set up or fire off their strongest attack.
It's also worth noting that Nightmare is an ostensibly unintentional victim of these decisions. The existence of passive Sleep healing means that Nightmare's new effect is giving its user access to "old" Sleep, sans 16-damage wake-up floor, at the cost of 50-100% of its target's sleep actions in a given round or a combo counter. This issue is exacerbated by the fact that ~2/3 of the Pokemon capable of learning Nightmare and a Sleep move are stuck with the newly nerfed Hypnosis. As a result, you're only gaining ~2 actions of "benefit" from most uses of Nightmare.
tl;dr Most of the status changes since the start of Gen IX have encouraged a dynamic and interesting metagame, but the newest Sleep revamp seems like an overreaction and has broad, negative implications on the the average Status user's intra-movepool cohesiveness.
I think some of the changes to Sleep are unnecessary, though. Sleep's power level was generally appropriate for the stated status-friendly design philosophy; the problem was that low-level counterplay was weak or absent, leading to an exaggerated dominance of certain strategies at those levels. By hindering repetitive sleep spam through the addition of a "cooldown" period—although someone will have to explain to me how a Pokemon can be afflicted by 2a-sleep twice in a single round when it hasn't woken up by the time its foe can use the move again—and likely earlier access to Uproar, the least competitive aspects of the status seem to have been resolved.
To that end, the other modifications seem gratuitous. Restless tokens seem to restrict a Sleep user's options just a little too harshly; yes, entry hazards and elite stat-boosting moves are enticing "rewards" for landing the status, but Snore/Sleep Talk chip and Sleep healing result in a worsened damage spread. Moreover, this passive healing blunts the chip damage inflicted by other conditions, which is often a major contribution to the damage and threat of the status users for whom Sleep is the best defense against foes that can't be handled by Burn. Finally, certain moves' new guaranteed 1-action Sleep duration is inherently flawed from a balance perspective, as it forces an artificial, Speed-related dichotomy upon Sleep users: fast Pokemon can only use these moves defensively, but slow Pokemon can reap this benefit while also enjoying a free action to set up or fire off their strongest attack.
It's also worth noting that Nightmare is an ostensibly unintentional victim of these decisions. The existence of passive Sleep healing means that Nightmare's new effect is giving its user access to "old" Sleep, sans 16-damage wake-up floor, at the cost of 50-100% of its target's sleep actions in a given round or a combo counter. This issue is exacerbated by the fact that ~2/3 of the Pokemon capable of learning Nightmare and a Sleep move are stuck with the newly nerfed Hypnosis. As a result, you're only gaining ~2 actions of "benefit" from most uses of Nightmare.
tl;dr Most of the status changes since the start of Gen IX have encouraged a dynamic and interesting metagame, but the newest Sleep revamp seems like an overreaction and has broad, negative implications on the the average Status user's intra-movepool cohesiveness.
Most of the Pokemon using nerfed Hypnosis have incredible combo options with it to blank a turn and gain advantage. Separating them from the intentionally-designed middling Grasses built around status is important.
I feel like I should indicate that Nightmare already disallows its subject from recovering HP or En.
also, is it sufficiently clear that most sources of sleep are tracked in the subject's turns? you mention "action" durations, which have no rules meaning. r7.1 has further details on durations.
I feel like I should indicate that Nightmare already disallows its subject from recovering HP or En.
also, is it sufficiently clear that most sources of sleep are tracked in the subject's turns? you mention "action" durations, which have no rules meaning. r7.1 has further details on durations.
Here's a funny and hastily written python script for reffing a doubles flash between two Nidokings and Nidoqueens.
Usage: python bbp.py [battler1] [battler2] [which battler ordered first (1 or 2)]
Code:
import sys
import random
if __name__ == "__main__":
battler1 = sys.argv[1]
battler2 = sys.argv[2]
battler1_orders_first = True if sys.argv[3] == "1" else False
damage_str = "(10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24"
damage_crit_str = "(10 + 3 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 27"
damage = 24
damage_crit = 27
king1_hp = 90
king2_hp = 90
queen1_hp = 95
queen2_hp = 95
print(
'''
[center][u][b]Round One[/b][/u][/center]
[left][b]Team {battler1}[/b]
:ss/Nidoking:
[b]Nidoking[/b]
[b]HP:[/b] 90
[b]EN:[/b] 100
[b]Type:[/b] Poison/Ground
[b]Ability:[/b] Poison Point/Rivalry
[b]Stats:[/b] 7/6/6/6/85
[b]S/W:[/b] 3/4
:ss/Nidoqueen:
[b]Nidoqueen[/b]
[b]HP:[/b] 95
[b]EN:[/b] 100
[b]Type:[/b] Poison/Ground
[b]Ability:[/b] Poison Point/Rivalry
[b]Stats:[/b] 7/6/6/6/76
[b]S/W:[/b] 3/4[/left]
[right][b]Team {battler2}[/b]
:ss/Nidoking:
[b]Nidoking[/b]
[b]HP:[/b] 90
[b]EN:[/b] 100
[b]Type:[/b] Poison/Ground
[b]Ability:[/b] Poison Point/Rivalry
[b]Stats:[/b] 7/6/6/6/85
[b]S/W:[/b] 3/4
:ss/Nidoqueen:
[b]Nidoqueen[/b]
[b]HP:[/b] 95
[b]EN:[/b] 100
[b]Type:[/b] Poison/Ground
[b]Ability:[/b] Poison Point/Rivalry
[b]Stats:[/b] 7/6/6/6/76
[b]S/W:[/b] 3/4[/right]
[center][hide=Calculations]'''.format(
battler1=battler1, battler2=battler2
)
)
tie_winner = battler1 if battler1_orders_first else battler2
tie_loser = battler2 if battler1_orders_first else battler1
crit1 = random.randint(1, 24)
crit2 = random.randint(1, 24)
crit3 = random.randint(1, 24)
crit4 = random.randint(1, 24)
crit5 = random.randint(1, 24)
crit6 = random.randint(1, 24)
crit_str1 = "%d, %d, %d" % (crit1, crit2, crit3)
crit_str2 = "%d, %d, %d" % (crit4, crit5, crit6)
damage_str1 = damage_str if crit1 != 1 else damage_crit_str
damage_str2 = damage_str if crit2 != 1 else damage_crit_str
damage_str3 = damage_str if crit3 != 1 else damage_crit_str
damage_str4 = damage_str if crit4 != 1 else damage_crit_str
damage_str5 = damage_str if crit5 != 1 else damage_crit_str
damage_str6 = damage_str if crit6 != 1 else damage_crit_str
if (battler1_orders_first):
queen1_hp = queen1_hp - damage if crit1 != 1 else queen1_hp - damage_crit
king2_hp = king2_hp - damage if crit2 != 1 else king2_hp - damage_crit
queen2_hp = queen2_hp - damage if crit3 != 1 else queen2_hp - damage_crit
queen2_hp = queen2_hp - damage if crit4 != 1 else queen2_hp - damage_crit
king1_hp = king1_hp - damage if crit5 != 1 else king1_hp - damage_crit
queen1_hp = queen1_hp - damage if crit6 != 1 else queen1_hp - damage_crit
else:
queen2_hp = queen2_hp - damage if crit1 != 1 else queen2_hp - damage_crit
king1_hp = king1_hp - damage if crit2 != 1 else king1_hp - damage_crit
queen1_hp = queen1_hp - damage if crit3 != 1 else queen1_hp - damage_crit
queen1_hp = queen1_hp - damage if crit4 != 1 else queen1_hp - damage_crit
king2_hp = king2_hp - damage if crit5 != 1 else king2_hp - damage_crit
queen2_hp = queen2_hp - damage if crit6 != 1 else queen2_hp - damage_crit
print(
'''[b]Step One[/b]
{tie_winner}'s Nidoking used Earthquake! (7 EN)
Crits: {crit_str1}/24
Damage ({tie_winner}'s Nidoqueen): {damage_str1}
Damage ({tie_loser}'s Nidoking): {damage_str2}
Damage ({tie_loser}'s Nidoqueen): {damage_str3}
{tie_loser}'s Nidoking used Earthquake! (7 EN)
Crits: {crit_str2}/24
Damage ({tie_loser}'s Nidoqueen): {damage_str4}
Damage ({tie_winner}'s Nidoking): {damage_str5}
Damage ({tie_winner}'s Nidoqueen): {damage_str6}'''.format(
tie_winner=tie_winner, tie_loser=tie_loser,
crit_str1=crit_str1, crit_str2=crit_str2,
damage_str1=damage_str1, damage_str2=damage_str2, damage_str3=damage_str3,
damage_str4=damage_str4, damage_str5=damage_str5, damage_str6=damage_str6
)
)
crit1 = random.randint(1, 24)
crit2 = random.randint(1, 24)
crit3 = random.randint(1, 24)
crit4 = random.randint(1, 24)
crit5 = random.randint(1, 24)
crit6 = random.randint(1, 24)
crit_str1 = "%d, %d, %d" % (crit1, crit2, crit3)
crit_str2 = "%d, %d, %d" % (crit4, crit5, crit6)
damage_str1 = damage_str if crit1 != 1 else damage_crit_str
damage_str2 = damage_str if crit2 != 1 else damage_crit_str
damage_str3 = damage_str if crit3 != 1 else damage_crit_str
damage_str4 = damage_str if crit4 != 1 else damage_crit_str
damage_str5 = damage_str if crit5 != 1 else damage_crit_str
damage_str6 = damage_str if crit6 != 1 else damage_crit_str
if (battler1_orders_first):
king1_hp = king1_hp - damage if crit1 != 1 else king1_hp - damage_crit
king2_hp = king2_hp - damage if crit2 != 1 else king2_hp - damage_crit
queen2_hp = queen2_hp - damage if crit3 != 1 else queen2_hp - damage_crit
king2_hp = king2_hp - damage if crit4 != 1 else king2_hp - damage_crit
king1_hp = king1_hp - damage if crit5 != 1 else king1_hp - damage_crit
queen1_hp = queen1_hp - damage if crit6 != 1 else queen1_hp - damage_crit
else:
king2_hp = king2_hp - damage if crit1 != 1 else king2_hp - damage_crit
king1_hp = king1_hp - damage if crit2 != 1 else king1_hp - damage_crit
queen1_hp = queen1_hp - damage if crit3 != 1 else queen1_hp - damage_crit
king1_hp = king1_hp - damage if crit4 != 1 else king1_hp - damage_crit
king2_hp = king2_hp - damage if crit5 != 1 else king2_hp - damage_crit
queen2_hp = queen2_hp - damage if crit6 != 1 else queen2_hp - damage_crit
print(
'''
{tie_winner}'s Nidoqueen used Earthquake! (7 EN)
Crits: {crit_str1}/24
Damage ({tie_winner}'s Nidoking): {damage_str1}
Damage ({tie_loser}'s Nidoking): {damage_str2}
Damage ({tie_loser}'s Nidoqueen): {damage_str3}
{tie_loser}'s Nidoqueen used Earthquake! (7 EN)
Crits: {crit_str2}/24
Damage ({tie_loser}'s Nidoking): {damage_str4}
Damage ({tie_winner}'s Nidoking): {damage_str5}
Damage ({tie_winner}'s Nidoqueen): {damage_str6}'''.format(
tie_winner=tie_winner, tie_loser=tie_loser,
crit_str1=crit_str1, crit_str2=crit_str2,
damage_str1=damage_str1, damage_str2=damage_str2, damage_str3=damage_str3,
damage_str4=damage_str4, damage_str5=damage_str5, damage_str6=damage_str6
)
)
crit1 = random.randint(1, 24)
crit2 = random.randint(1, 24)
crit3 = random.randint(1, 24)
crit_str1 = "%d, %d, %d" % (crit1, crit2, crit3)
damage_str1 = damage_str if crit1 != 1 else damage_crit_str
damage_str2 = damage_str if crit2 != 1 else damage_crit_str
damage_str3 = damage_str if crit3 != 1 else damage_crit_str
if (battler1_orders_first):
queen1_hp = queen1_hp - damage if crit1 != 1 else queen1_hp - damage_crit
king2_hp = king2_hp - damage if crit2 != 1 else king2_hp - damage_crit
queen2_hp = queen2_hp - damage if crit3 != 1 else queen2_hp - damage_crit
else:
queen2_hp = queen2_hp - damage if crit4 != 1 else queen2_hp - damage_crit
king1_hp = king1_hp - damage if crit5 != 1 else king1_hp - damage_crit
queen1_hp = queen1_hp - damage if crit6 != 1 else queen1_hp - damage_crit
print(
'''
[b]Step Two[/b]
{tie_winner}'s Nidoking used Earthquake! (7 EN)
Crits: {crit_str1}/24
Damage ({tie_winner}'s Nidoqueen): {damage_str1}
Damage ({tie_loser}'s Nidoking): {damage_str2}
Damage ({tie_loser}'s Nidoqueen): {damage_str3}
{tie_winner}'s Nidoqueen, {tie_loser}'s Nidoking, and {tie_loser}'s Nidoqueen fainted.[/hide][/center]'''.format(
tie_winner=tie_winner, tie_loser=tie_loser,
crit_str1=crit_str1,
damage_str1=damage_str1, damage_str2=damage_str2, damage_str3=damage_str3
)
)
king1_en = 86 if king1_hp > 0 else "KO"
king1_hp = king1_hp if king1_hp > 0 else "KO"
king2_en = 86 if king2_hp > 0 else "KO"
king2_hp = king2_hp if king2_hp > 0 else "KO"
print('''
[center][u][b]Round One[/b][/u][/center]
[left][b]Team {battler1}[/b]
:ss/Nidoking:
[b]Nidoking[/b]
[b]HP:[/b] {king1_hp}
[b]EN:[/b] {king1_en}
[b]Type:[/b] Poison/Ground
[b]Ability:[/b] Poison Point/Rivalry
[b]Stats:[/b] 7/6/6/6/85
[b]S/W:[/b] 3/4
:ss/Nidoqueen:
[b]Nidoqueen[/b]
[b]HP:[/b] KO
[b]EN:[/b] KO
[b]Type:[/b] Poison/Ground
[b]Ability:[/b] Poison Point/Rivalry
[b]Stats:[/b] 7/6/6/6/76
[b]S/W:[/b] 3/4[/left]
[right][b]Team {battler2}[/b]
:ss/Nidoking:
[b]Nidoking[/b]
[b]HP:[/b] {king2_hp}
[b]EN:[/b] {king2_en}
[b]Type:[/b] Poison/Ground
[b]Ability:[/b] Poison Point/Rivalry
[b]Stats:[/b] 7/6/6/6/85
[b]S/W:[/b] 3/4
:ss/Nidoqueen:
[b]Nidoqueen[/b]
[b]HP:[/b] KO
[b]EN:[/b] KO
[b]Type:[/b] Poison/Ground
[b]Ability:[/b] Poison Point/Rivalry
[b]Stats:[/b] 7/6/6/6/76
[b]S/W:[/b] 3/4[/right]
[center][b]Rewards[/b]:
{battler1}: +2 TC, +3 RC, -2 JC
{battler2}: +2 TC, +3 RC, -2 JC
Me: +3 RC, +6 JC[/center]
'''.format(
battler1=battler1, battler2=battler2,
king1_hp=king1_hp, king2_hp=king2_hp, king1_en=king1_en, king2_en=king2_en
)
)Usage: python bbp.py [battler1] [battler2] [which battler ordered first (1 or 2)]
Round One
Team Ooraloo
Nidoking
HP: 90
EN: 100
Type: Poison/Ground
Ability: Poison Point/Rivalry
Stats: 7/6/6/6/85
S/W: 3/4
Nidoqueen
HP: 95
EN: 100
Type: Poison/Ground
Ability: Poison Point/Rivalry
Stats: 7/6/6/6/76
S/W: 3/4
Nidoking
HP: 90
EN: 100
Type: Poison/Ground
Ability: Poison Point/Rivalry
Stats: 7/6/6/6/85
S/W: 3/4
Nidoqueen
HP: 95
EN: 100
Type: Poison/Ground
Ability: Poison Point/Rivalry
Stats: 7/6/6/6/76
S/W: 3/4
Team Skiddo
Nidoking
HP: 90
EN: 100
Type: Poison/Ground
Ability: Poison Point/Rivalry
Stats: 7/6/6/6/85
S/W: 3/4
Nidoqueen
HP: 95
EN: 100
Type: Poison/Ground
Ability: Poison Point/Rivalry
Stats: 7/6/6/6/76
S/W: 3/4
Nidoking
HP: 90
EN: 100
Type: Poison/Ground
Ability: Poison Point/Rivalry
Stats: 7/6/6/6/85
S/W: 3/4
Nidoqueen
HP: 95
EN: 100
Type: Poison/Ground
Ability: Poison Point/Rivalry
Stats: 7/6/6/6/76
S/W: 3/4
Step One
Skiddo's Nidoking used Earthquake! (7 EN)
Crits: 7, 11, 20/24
Damage (Skiddo's Nidoqueen): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Ooraloo's Nidoking): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Ooraloo's Nidoqueen): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Ooraloo's Nidoking used Earthquake! (7 EN)
Crits: 22, 12, 6/24
Damage (Ooraloo's Nidoqueen): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Skiddo's Nidoking): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Skiddo's Nidoqueen): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Skiddo's Nidoqueen used Earthquake! (7 EN)
Crits: 19, 10, 4/24
Damage (Skiddo's Nidoking): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Ooraloo's Nidoking): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Ooraloo's Nidoqueen): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Ooraloo's Nidoqueen used Earthquake! (7 EN)
Crits: 24, 22, 5/24
Damage (Ooraloo's Nidoking): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Skiddo's Nidoking): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Skiddo's Nidoqueen): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Step Two
Skiddo's Nidoking used Earthquake! (7 EN)
Crits: 9, 21, 10/24
Damage (Skiddo's Nidoqueen): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Ooraloo's Nidoking): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Ooraloo's Nidoqueen): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Skiddo's Nidoqueen, Ooraloo's Nidoking, and Ooraloo's Nidoqueen fainted.
Skiddo's Nidoking used Earthquake! (7 EN)
Crits: 7, 11, 20/24
Damage (Skiddo's Nidoqueen): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Ooraloo's Nidoking): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Ooraloo's Nidoqueen): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Ooraloo's Nidoking used Earthquake! (7 EN)
Crits: 22, 12, 6/24
Damage (Ooraloo's Nidoqueen): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Skiddo's Nidoking): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Skiddo's Nidoqueen): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Skiddo's Nidoqueen used Earthquake! (7 EN)
Crits: 19, 10, 4/24
Damage (Skiddo's Nidoking): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Ooraloo's Nidoking): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Ooraloo's Nidoqueen): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Ooraloo's Nidoqueen used Earthquake! (7 EN)
Crits: 24, 22, 5/24
Damage (Ooraloo's Nidoking): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Skiddo's Nidoking): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Skiddo's Nidoqueen): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Step Two
Skiddo's Nidoking used Earthquake! (7 EN)
Crits: 9, 21, 10/24
Damage (Skiddo's Nidoqueen): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Ooraloo's Nidoking): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Damage (Ooraloo's Nidoqueen): (10 + 3 + 10 + 7 - 6) * 1.5 * 2/3 = 24
Skiddo's Nidoqueen, Ooraloo's Nidoking, and Ooraloo's Nidoqueen fainted.
Round One
Team Ooraloo
Nidoking
HP: KO
EN: KO
Type: Poison/Ground
Ability: Poison Point/Rivalry
Stats: 7/6/6/6/85
S/W: 3/4
Nidoqueen
HP: KO
EN: KO
Type: Poison/Ground
Ability: Poison Point/Rivalry
Stats: 7/6/6/6/76
S/W: 3/4
Nidoking
HP: KO
EN: KO
Type: Poison/Ground
Ability: Poison Point/Rivalry
Stats: 7/6/6/6/85
S/W: 3/4
Nidoqueen
HP: KO
EN: KO
Type: Poison/Ground
Ability: Poison Point/Rivalry
Stats: 7/6/6/6/76
S/W: 3/4
Team Skiddo
Nidoking
HP: 18
EN: 86
Type: Poison/Ground
Ability: Poison Point/Rivalry
Stats: 7/6/6/6/85
S/W: 3/4
Nidoqueen
HP: KO
EN: KO
Type: Poison/Ground
Ability: Poison Point/Rivalry
Stats: 7/6/6/6/76
S/W: 3/4
Nidoking
HP: 18
EN: 86
Type: Poison/Ground
Ability: Poison Point/Rivalry
Stats: 7/6/6/6/85
S/W: 3/4
Nidoqueen
HP: KO
EN: KO
Type: Poison/Ground
Ability: Poison Point/Rivalry
Stats: 7/6/6/6/76
S/W: 3/4
Rewards:
Ooraloo: +2 TC, +3 RC, -2 JC
Skiddo: +2 TC, +3 RC, -2 JC
Me: +3 RC, +6 JC
Ooraloo: +2 TC, +3 RC, -2 JC
Skiddo: +2 TC, +3 RC, -2 JC
Me: +3 RC, +6 JC
Last edited:
Oh, you're right about Nightmare; I thought it only worked against Rest's healing for some reason.
You're perfectly explicit on sleep durations. This is a case of me being old and slipping into the previous generations' terminology.
-------------------------------------
As a final point of contention involving Sleep, I've noticed that Comatose now allows its users to super-regenerate 1/6 of their HP in healing each round. Is this intentional?
comatose should have a line reducing the amount of HP and En the user gains from sleep (but they should still enjoy quite a lot of recovery via sleep)
i would say i'm pretty interested in helping out with raid zone right now. it's completely new, looks cool, and i (kinda) know what i'm talking about when it comes to this discussion due to reffing a bunch of season's beatings. so i wanna do a little game design post
Why does the Raid Zone exist? What does it have to offer over other facilities?
What can we learn from Season's Beatings?
What can we learn from other facilities?
How should low-level (L1-L2) raids be designed?
Here's an example phase for a low-level Armarouge boss (with normal-level stats, those being 5/7/9/6/75). I'm assuming that either the encounter is 2 phases, or it's 3 phases with opportunities to heal.
How should higher-level (L3-L4) raids be designed?
Here's an example phase for a high-level Cloyster boss (stats are 7/13/6/4/70). Cloyster might not be the best Raid Boss because of how hard it shuts down physical attackers, I'm just rolling random mons as examples.
Even something as toned down as this still looks pretty threatening; getting past this phase on its own would be challenging for a lower-level party. It might need even more toning down to become actually reasonable in the context of a multi-phase fight.
How can we consistently get people to ref these?
alright that's all i got for now
Why does the Raid Zone exist? What does it have to offer over other facilities?
- Teaming up with another player against enemies is a lot of fun and helps with getting to know others.
- Having 4 mons on the field at once allows for some really neat strategies and synergy.
- The aspect of a strong enemy that can be debuffed but not fully restrained is interesting.
What can we learn from Season's Beatings?
- Adds do a good job at spicing up the fight, so you aren't just fighting the same Pokemon all the time. There's also the question of do you go for the adds first or the boss. (I think everyone using Volkraken should definitely have taken out Caribolt first, lol)
- We have a pretty good place to start for boss HP. Prepared teams can typically deal up to 150 HP/round (75/step) to a mon with 11 defenses with all-out attacking. I think it's ok to have an opening phase take one or two rounds to complete for example (with 200 HP).
- Slot management is really cool.
- It makes sense to have the challengers lose if either player loses.
- SB was obviously very difficult, due to several factors.
- The King's stats were very high, at 12/11/12/11. Even weak moves like Confusion and Mega Drain were doing 12-15 damage.
- There was a synergistic and very dangerous add (Boomburst Caribolt). Targeting it down was inefficient due to the King also owning you at the same time.
- The King acted four times every step.
- Player Pokemon had pretty much no opportunity to escape damage or recover in an efficient manner. (Protect is not efficient, you're leaving your teammates open to attack without contributing.)
What can we learn from other facilities?
- It's very important to have multiple places to challenge (similar to Tierno/Trevor/Shauna for example), especially at low levels. This is to prevent weaker Pokemon from getting locked out of progression by bad matchups.
- The new backpack can be applied pretty interestingly here. I'm thinking players bring a backpack in, then between boss phases they can "re-equip" their mons. Like for the opening phase you can have Choice Band to blitz through, then replace that with a Sitrus Berry to heal. (The Sitrus Berry is then consumed and can't be re-equipped later.)
- I also wonder if TLR items (potions, other medicines) have a place here. For a lot of Pokemon (Guts users and generally frail ones especially come to mind), expecting them to spend 12-16 (or more!) steps in danger and survive is a tall order, no matter how watered down the encounter is.
- Dynamax should probably be easier to get than the legends. Legends should require a dedicated team, techniques should require a synergistic but not specifically tailored team.
How should low-level (L1-L2) raids be designed?
- These should generally be very lenient, but without getting completely bulldozed by stronger Pokemon (if possible).
- SB had four phases, these should have three or even two. Having a dedicated starting and final phase is probably unnecessary. (random -> random -> final, starting -> random are some examples)
- The Raid Boss's actions should be less frequent and/or less impactful. For example, there could be only 3 slots, and Slot 4 would just go unscathed. Also, if the Raid Boss is using a particularly dangerous move (like a strong spread move), it could eat up multiple of their actions.
- Be careful with major status. If the challenger's physical guy gets burned then that sucks for them.
Here's an example phase for a low-level Armarouge boss (with normal-level stats, those being 5/7/9/6/75). I'm assuming that either the encounter is 2 phases, or it's 3 phases with opportunities to heal.
Phase Boss HP: 200
When the encounter enters this phase: Create a Clawitzer add, and give the Raid Boss a Ring Target, discarding any current held item they might have.
Boss Behaviors:
Slot 1: Armor Cannon / Psychic / Incinerate
Slot 2: Calm Mind / Night Shade / Flash Cannon
Slot 3: Energy Ball / Confuse Ray / Will-O-Wisp
Clawitzer Behaviors:
Water Pulse ~ Dark Pulse
IF you cannot use Water Pulse THEN use Bubble Beam.
IF you cannot use Dark Pulse THEN use Dragon Pulse.
When the encounter enters this phase: Create a Clawitzer add, and give the Raid Boss a Ring Target, discarding any current held item they might have.
Boss Behaviors:
Slot 1: Armor Cannon / Psychic / Incinerate
Slot 2: Calm Mind / Night Shade / Flash Cannon
Slot 3: Energy Ball / Confuse Ray / Will-O-Wisp
Clawitzer Behaviors:
Water Pulse ~ Dark Pulse
IF you cannot use Water Pulse THEN use Bubble Beam.
IF you cannot use Dark Pulse THEN use Dragon Pulse.
How should higher-level (L3-L4) raids be designed?
- These should demand the use of a bit more synergy and strategy. Players should not be able to win by only spamming attacks.
- Similar to Pike, Safari, and HUA, players should have to carefully manage their HP. Also, status can be a lot more widespread here due to the increased range of counterplay.
- There's more room for the Raid Boss (and their adds) to experiment with other strategies like modifying players' abilities, held item manipulation, setting up their stats, changing the weather, and stuff like that.
- There's no need to be as harsh as Season's Beatings, unless a big legendary or something is on the line.
- Maybe there could be a rule that the same mon can't spend 2 consecutive rounds in Slot 4, so you can't just have a glass cannon that's never exposed to any danger. This is somewhat mitigated by spread moves and adds though, and by weakened mons competing with frail ones for the slot.
Here's an example phase for a high-level Cloyster boss (stats are 7/13/6/4/70). Cloyster might not be the best Raid Boss because of how hard it shuts down physical attackers, I'm just rolling random mons as examples.
Phase Boss HP: 250
When the encounter is in this phase: Reduce damage the Raid Boss takes from attacks by (4 * number of adds remaining).
When the encounter enters this phase: Create a Poliwrath add and a Torterra add.
Boss Behaviors:
While there are 2 adds remaining:
Slot 1: Surf / Blizzard / Hydro Pump
Slot 2: Clamp / Toxic / Captivate
Slot 3: Aqua Ring / Light Screen / Brine
While one or more adds have fainted:
Slot 1: Surf / Blizzard / Shell Smash
Slot 2: Icicle Spear / Rock Blast / Pin Missile
Slot 3: Aqua Ring / Avalanche / Brine
Poliwrath Behaviors:
Brick Break ~ Waterfall
IF you cannot use Brick Break THEN use Focus Blast.
IF you cannot use Waterfall THEN use Surf.
Torterra Behaviors:
Earthquake ~ Earthquake
IF you cannot use Earthquake THEN use Rock Slide.
IF you cannot use Earthquake and Rock Slide THEN use Wood Hammer.
When the encounter is in this phase: Reduce damage the Raid Boss takes from attacks by (4 * number of adds remaining).
When the encounter enters this phase: Create a Poliwrath add and a Torterra add.
Boss Behaviors:
While there are 2 adds remaining:
Slot 1: Surf / Blizzard / Hydro Pump
Slot 2: Clamp / Toxic / Captivate
Slot 3: Aqua Ring / Light Screen / Brine
While one or more adds have fainted:
Slot 1: Surf / Blizzard / Shell Smash
Slot 2: Icicle Spear / Rock Blast / Pin Missile
Slot 3: Aqua Ring / Avalanche / Brine
Poliwrath Behaviors:
Brick Break ~ Waterfall
IF you cannot use Brick Break THEN use Focus Blast.
IF you cannot use Waterfall THEN use Surf.
Torterra Behaviors:
Earthquake ~ Earthquake
IF you cannot use Earthquake THEN use Rock Slide.
IF you cannot use Earthquake and Rock Slide THEN use Wood Hammer.
Even something as toned down as this still looks pretty threatening; getting past this phase on its own would be challenging for a lower-level party. It might need even more toning down to become actually reasonable in the context of a multi-phase fight.
How can we consistently get people to ref these?
- The elephant in the room for raids is that most people find them too much work to ref. (source: oora questioned my sanity for taking all the season's beatings)
- Thus, we probably should be paying refs a lot. I think the Season's Beatings reward of 3 TC/3 RC/2 JC per phase is pretty good honestly. Others might disagree on this though.
- Players probably don't need to be paid too well-- if a facility offers EXP it will receive attention. So some TC/RC payment but not as much as Season's Beatings I think.
alright that's all i got for now
further cross-posts from #minor-announcements; some being paraphased. i've been asked why these long lists of minor revisions aren't patch notes yet, and it's simply that the handbook is unfinished. however, these are almost all DAT changes, so they could probably make it to the patch list with little issue beyond dressing them up.
switching:
updated to allow assymetric switch rules based on the team; such as a player team being allowed to switch and an NPC team being disallowed. all mentions of switch rules should have been updated to query the switch rule of a given team or teams.
rule 3.2: ("effect types")
updated to include a sub-category of triggered effects called "power-modifying triggered effects". effects may refer to this category.
relevant rules text:
this ability underwent work to clarify that it refers to "hits" as they are dealt by attacks, rather than in the plain english "didn't miss" sense.
there was a moment of shared confusion among players, where they thought sheer force stopped all triggered effects relating to the attack, including those that grant power bonuses or power penalties "when a mon attacks". those effects don't trigger as a result of hits (effects that DO would say "when the user is hit super-effectively" or "when the user hits a defender with an attack"), so sheer force has no interaction with such effects.
current (updated) text:
rule revised to better define an "attacker". much of 8.x overall was written up to better define when a Pokemon attacks, becomes an attacker, becomes a defender, pays costs for actions, and so on.
rotom
rather than using the Signature Moves column, the formes were changed to have Traits that cause them to know the appropriate move while they are in the appropriate forme. this clarifies what happens to those moves when Rotom changes to a different forme.
commander, minus, etc
abilities that function while benched were clarified to state they don't function while the user or the specified benched Pokemon, as appropriate, is fainted.
sealed
adjusted the wording of the Sealed condition to support effects sealing "one or more" moves; and to support stacking Sealed. specifically:
the prior implementation overly benefitted older-generation Pokemon, and was poorly suited to do anything but trade an action with careless opponents.
essentially reversed the implementation of this move. rather than forbidding any opponent from attempting or executing a move known by the user, for a short duration; this move now instead accepts any single move as a parameter as it did in gen 8. that move no longer needs to be known by the user.
imprison now grants the user a status until they leave play (rather than for 2 turns), and no Pokemon in play (rather than just opponents) can't attempt or execute the declared move.
metronome
now fails unless the move was ordered in the first order post of a round. in exchange, the called move no longer needs to share a type with the user.
entrainment
now replaces the subject's abilities with one declared ability, from among the user's abilities. if no ability is declared, the first ability of the user is assumed.
king's rock
corrected to use stench's phrasing. no functional change.
razor wind
the old text is, in part, as follows:
new text of the condition granted by razor wind:
foresight, odor sleuth, miracle eye:
implemented an "iIdentified" condition for these moves to inflict, so that future effects can imitate them easily. each move adds their specific immunity-ignoring effect text to the instance of Identified that they create
Tauros
The Tauros breeds now have their correct names in the DAT, and Raging Bull now correctly becomes Fighting-type for Tauros-Paldea.
comatose
halved the healed hp and en from their perma-sleep. (as stated in posts above)
marvel scale
to have parity with Guts, Flare Boost and so on, this was changed to grant 5 additional defense.
bad dreams
now prevents all hp and en recovery of sleeping opponents.
swagger
now specifies a confusion duration of 1 turn. this should alleviate complaints of having to sub for combos involving such a widely-distributed move. as with other statuses, confusion should demand a substitution *often*. But not always, lest it become the second coming of Bide.
switching:
updated to allow assymetric switch rules based on the team; such as a player team being allowed to switch and an NPC team being disallowed. all mentions of switch rules should have been updated to query the switch rule of a given team or teams.
rule 3.2: ("effect types")
updated to include a sub-category of triggered effects called "power-modifying triggered effects". effects may refer to this category.
relevant rules text:
sheer force
this ability underwent work to clarify that it refers to "hits" as they are dealt by attacks, rather than in the plain english "didn't miss" sense.
there was a moment of shared confusion among players, where they thought sheer force stopped all triggered effects relating to the attack, including those that grant power bonuses or power penalties "when a mon attacks". those effects don't trigger as a result of hits (effects that DO would say "when the user is hit super-effectively" or "when the user hits a defender with an attack"), so sheer force has no interaction with such effects.
current (updated) text:
rules 8.3
rule revised to better define an "attacker". much of 8.x overall was written up to better define when a Pokemon attacks, becomes an attacker, becomes a defender, pays costs for actions, and so on.
rotom
rather than using the Signature Moves column, the formes were changed to have Traits that cause them to know the appropriate move while they are in the appropriate forme. this clarifies what happens to those moves when Rotom changes to a different forme.
commander, minus, etc
abilities that function while benched were clarified to state they don't function while the user or the specified benched Pokemon, as appropriate, is fainted.
sealed
adjusted the wording of the Sealed condition to support effects sealing "one or more" moves; and to support stacking Sealed. specifically:
- disable:
adjusted to specify any move; the subject then has that move Sealed even if they do not know that move - cursed body:
corrected the duration of inflicted seal to last "until the subject leaves play", to match other sources of seal. - torment:
adjusted to inflict Sealed. seals the moves executed by the defender in the current and in the prior round
the prior implementation overly benefitted older-generation Pokemon, and was poorly suited to do anything but trade an action with careless opponents.
essentially reversed the implementation of this move. rather than forbidding any opponent from attempting or executing a move known by the user, for a short duration; this move now instead accepts any single move as a parameter as it did in gen 8. that move no longer needs to be known by the user.
imprison now grants the user a status until they leave play (rather than for 2 turns), and no Pokemon in play (rather than just opponents) can't attempt or execute the declared move.
metronome
now fails unless the move was ordered in the first order post of a round. in exchange, the called move no longer needs to share a type with the user.
entrainment
now replaces the subject's abilities with one declared ability, from among the user's abilities. if no ability is declared, the first ability of the user is assumed.
king's rock
corrected to use stench's phrasing. no functional change.
razor wind
the old text is, in part, as follows:
this ability doesn't work as written. (there is no definition for what effects "affect" which pokemon). correcting the wording to better clarify what it does.
new text of the condition granted by razor wind:
this does mean that no drain or recoil occurs as a result of hitting a defender charging razor wind (new), and still means that on-hits that cancel charge moves don't work on razor wind (as before). these changes mirror the changes made to sheer force, helping to clarify for players what constitutes a triggered effect.
foresight, odor sleuth, miracle eye:
implemented an "iIdentified" condition for these moves to inflict, so that future effects can imitate them easily. each move adds their specific immunity-ignoring effect text to the instance of Identified that they create
Tauros
The Tauros breeds now have their correct names in the DAT, and Raging Bull now correctly becomes Fighting-type for Tauros-Paldea.
comatose
halved the healed hp and en from their perma-sleep. (as stated in posts above)
marvel scale
to have parity with Guts, Flare Boost and so on, this was changed to grant 5 additional defense.
bad dreams
now prevents all hp and en recovery of sleeping opponents.
swagger
now specifies a confusion duration of 1 turn. this should alleviate complaints of having to sub for combos involving such a widely-distributed move. as with other statuses, confusion should demand a substitution *often*. But not always, lest it become the second coming of Bide.
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Having played (and lost against Zuki), I want to highlight what I think may be a viable strategy against her: hazard stacking.
Zuki is already kind of weak to phazing due to her strong point being her absurd stat boost with EE, but she also has no defense against hazards save for Espeon's Magic Bounce or Magic Coat given that she cannot spin or Defog them away.
In addition, my preliminary calcing shows that Flareon is actually a big threat in this sim, and taking 15 damage every time it gets into the field, in addition to damage from poison, would cut its life expectancy significantly. The same goes for Glaceon (I did not realize Glaceon was kind of stacked, also Barometer Snow Cloak Mud-Slap is just rude).
As a more general, untested piece of thought, packing Clear Smog might trivialize the sim, as without boosts the Eevelutions are rather weak, though their movepools are not to be underestimated. They don't have Substitute either so they can't protect reliably against Clear Smog.
For reference I am now 0-3 against Zuki. :(
Zuki is already kind of weak to phazing due to her strong point being her absurd stat boost with EE, but she also has no defense against hazards save for Espeon's Magic Bounce or Magic Coat given that she cannot spin or Defog them away.
In addition, my preliminary calcing shows that Flareon is actually a big threat in this sim, and taking 15 damage every time it gets into the field, in addition to damage from poison, would cut its life expectancy significantly. The same goes for Glaceon (I did not realize Glaceon was kind of stacked, also Barometer Snow Cloak Mud-Slap is just rude).
As a more general, untested piece of thought, packing Clear Smog might trivialize the sim, as without boosts the Eevelutions are rather weak, though their movepools are not to be underestimated. They don't have Substitute either so they can't protect reliably against Clear Smog.
For reference I am now 0-3 against Zuki. :(
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Question: Is it okay if I do a realgam tower run if I don't have the JC but will when I'm done reffing?
You can but you cannot claim the rewards of the run unless you have enough JC . Also you cannot start the 2nd realgam run until you claim your first run