Ultra Sun & Moon OU Analysis Discussion

[lydian]

It was already published but the overview still highlights the other two sets

i will edit the overview, ty for pointing it out :)

 

[bigtalk]

A better spread for defensive Volcarona would be 72 HP / 252 Def / 184 Spe with a Timid nature, so it outspeeds Z-move Lando and prevents revenge killing by maximum speed scarf Lando. More defense investment as opposed to HP helps it tank physical attacks a lot better.

Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 166-196 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 350-412 (93.8 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 183-216 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Knock Off vs. 72 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 141-166 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 72 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 297-350 (90.2 - 106.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 72 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 156-184 (47.4 - 55.9%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO

 

[lydian]

A better spread for defensive Volcarona would be 72 HP / 252 Def / 184 Spe with a Timid nature, so it outspeeds Z-move Lando and prevents revenge killing by maximum speed scarf Lando. More defense investment as opposed to HP helps it tank physical attacks a lot better.

Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 166-196 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 350-412 (93.8 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 183-216 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Knock Off vs. 72 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 141-166 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 72 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 297-350 (90.2 - 106.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 72 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 156-184 (47.4 - 55.9%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO

i guess that speed benchmark could be fine in set details, but the lack of bulk isnt't really ideal, and sure, you can mitigate it by passing the hp evs to defense. but that creates a big issue making volcarona far more vulnerable to the likes of tapu fini and ash-greninja, the former of which now can take on volcarona with much more ease, and the latter has a far easier time revenge killing volcarona:

0 SpA Tapu Fini Scald vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 108-128 (28.9 - 34.3%) -- 2.7% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Tapu Fini Scald vs. +1 72 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 108-128 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 216-258 (57.9 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. +1 72 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 216-258 (65.6 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[bigtalk]

but that creates a big issue making volcarona far more vulnerable to the likes of tapu fini and ash-greninja, the former of which now can take on volcarona with far more ease, and the latter has a far easier time revenge killing volcarona:

0 SpA Tapu Fini Scald vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 108-128 (28.9 - 34.3%) -- 2.7% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Tapu Fini Scald vs. +1 72 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 108-128 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 216-258 (57.9 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. +1 72 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 216-258 (65.6 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I was thinking about this beforehand, and I agree that Ash-Greninja and Tapu Fini can become more problematic. For nearly every other special attacker though, you get to QD at least twice before they attack you. This means they have to kill you with an attack at +2 spdef, followed up by an attack at +3 spdef. The chances of the HP investment mattering in this case are very slim, because most special attackers already fail to do 50% to a Volcarona at +2 whether it's HP invested or not.

(Also I would like to point out, because you get to +2 on Tapu Fini before it Taunts you, it's really the difference between a 4HKO/5HKO rather than 3HKO/4HKO. And in general ppl shouldn't be letting Ash happen if they have a Volc lol)

 

[TURBODERP]

A better spread for defensive Volcarona would be 72 HP / 252 Def / 184 Spe with a Timid nature, so it outspeeds Z-move Lando and prevents revenge killing by maximum speed scarf Lando. More defense investment as opposed to HP helps it tank physical attacks a lot better.

Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 166-196 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 350-412 (93.8 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Volcarona: 183-216 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Knock Off vs. 72 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 141-166 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 72 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 297-350 (90.2 - 106.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Knock Off vs. 72 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 156-184 (47.4 - 55.9%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO

The speed investment and resulting benchmark is notable, but I don't think those calcs really show tanking physical attacks a lot better. CB Knock Off is still gonna 2HKO 80% of the time instead of "nearly always", and the +2 Sucker from M-Mawile is still basically a roll.

 

[bigtalk]

The speed investment and resulting benchmark is notable, but I don't think those calcs really show tanking physical attacks a lot better. CB Knock Off is still gonna 2HKO 80% of the time instead of "nearly always", and the +2 Sucker from M-Mawile is still basically a roll.

It's a comparison between 72 HP / 252 Def and 248 HP / 112 Def, the difference is a lot more noticeable if you compare it with 248 HP / 76 Def.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Small thing but in Xurkitree’s analysis, a modest nature is sited as an ability “modest is the preferred ability for better roles against Ferrothorn and Tangrowth.”

 

[craing ;_;]

Hi, I use the onsite analyses more often than the average person and I can't help but notice a lot of issues I have with it. since they are an important resource for the entire community, I figured I would offer some insight on things that need to fixed in order to align with what the current sm metagame is like. I'll be doing this alphabetically from top to bottom ou all the way down since I have experience using every viable mon in ou that has deserved an ou analysis.

megazam - slash modest after timid, modest if your team doesn't need to speedtie timidzam, and doesn't need to revenge kill lopunny or ash gren(you speed tie ash gren with modest).

lozam - remove psyshock, put shadow ball as move 3 and in move 4 hp fire with hp ice slashed after. mention recover in moves. lozam is too frail to make use of recover and more often than not is better off spamming powerful atks. it doesn't really need recover against pex since scald is a 5hko and lo zam should not at all be your heatran switchin because at most it switches in once or twice.

blacephalon - remove choice scarf set entirely and mention it in OO, put choice specs set first and sub cm after. mention max sp atk and max spe on sub cm over the current spread which boosts speed upon kill in set details. this spread optimizes its wallbreaking potential if a team prioritizes that over the offense match up.

specsblace - remove flamethrower as a slash and mention in moves. specs blace is a hit and run mon, more often than not you're going to spam overheat or fire blast for damage over flamethrower with shadow ball as its form of consistent neutral stab. hp ground blanket covers heatran and tyranitar which are bigger issues than what hp grass hits. eliminating those two allows it to spam fire moves relatively freely.

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Blacephalon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Overheat / Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Grass
- Trick

celesteela - looks fine good job.

chansey - this pokemon can run any number iteration of sets that essentially fits what it's needed to do on the team it's on. soft-boiled and seismic toss are mandatory, however its other 2 slots are dependent on what a team needs. because of the high variance in set permutations, i believe two sets are required for this mon otherwise its set would be overrun with slashes. therefore i suggest splitting its two sets into stealth rock and support for easier simplification. also when running thunder wave, mention that it should run 16 evs in speed to outspeed max speed heatran after paralyzed. for its support set, mention toxic and thunder wave in moves as an option if your team doesn't require either wish or cleric support and would rather have a status move instead. mention confide in OO if your team is unable to deal with cm set up mons such as subcmblace, cmsplitmag, cmrefreshlati, clef and reuni.

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Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled
- Toxic / Heal Bell / Thunder Wave
- Seismic Toss

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Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Wish
- Heal Bell
- Seismic Toss

megazardx - slash dragon claw after earthquake on the dragon dance set. +1 dclaw still threatens the 2hko onto pex (+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 177-208 (58.2 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery) and allows it to hit important targets in rotom garchomp and lati, whilst retaining better neutral coverage in general. mention that dragon claw should not however be run if it is on a team using tapu fini as a defogger since misty terrain halves its damage output. also mention dd+3atks over roost being a viable option on offensive teams. last but not least, mention adamant in set details since it still outspeeds the standard scarf landorus spread after a dragon dance, but is not recommended as it wouldn't be able to revenge kill or speed tie with threats it normally would be able to with a jolly nature. mention fire punch and outrage in OO as a recoil-less alternative to flare blitz and outrage to have a leg up vs stall. remove the 3 attacks set entirely.

EDIT: also mention will-o-wisp and toxic in OO, wisp being able to neuter its usual switch ins such as tyranitar, landorus, swampert, etc. and toxic giving it a means to break stall and hit bulky waters in general.

megazardy - slash fire blast after flamethrower, mention that fire blast secures certain ohkos that flamethrower does not such as vs lele and fat landorus and that it is a more desirable option on teams that prioritize damage over longevity. slash defog after solar beam. zardy has much more opportunity cost associated with it and defog offers extra security vs hazards and alleviates pressure off its partners to remove rocks for it. for example having defog allows it to switch into ferrothorn as it sets up rocks and defog after(also has the added benefit of outdefogging tspike pex if paired with another defogger). mention that having another means of removal is imperative when using zardy, whether it is the one doing so or two other partners.

i'll do the rest later, mostly cuz i have a headache from trying to fix clefable lol.

 

[S. Court]

i'll do the rest later, mostly cuz i have a headache from trying to fix clefable lol.

Clefable is receiving a revamp, so don't pay attention to this analysis now lol

 

[craing ;_;]

Clefable is receiving a revamp, so don't pay attention to this analysis now lol

all due respect that revamp looks like it needs a revamp in itself.

clefable - extremely versatile mon that is able to curtail itself towards fixing a lot of issues for a team. as such, i don't believe just two sets do it justice. I believe the following four deserve their own analyses: physically defensive, specially defensive, life orb, and unaware. the unaware set looks fine, just slash cm after heal bell so that it can beat opposing set up sweepers it otherwise wouldn't be able to break, however the other sets are outdated and were only relevant during a zygarde metagame. in OO, give mention to encore on magic guard sets as a means for clef not to be set up fodder while also providing safe switchins to other members as well as a cosmic power charge beam set as it is a win con that is in itself hard to break but has trouble breaking itself.

physdefclef - max phys def allows it to function as a semi-reliable pivot into sdchomp, medicham, heracross, weavile, lopunny, swampert, hawlucha and kommo-o. calm mind can more or less guarantee that rocks are staying up while thunder wave helps neutralize potential threats and set up sweepers. also mention that if running thunder wave, give clefable 16 evs in speed to outspeed lele and kyu-b after paralyzed. toxic i believe deserves a slash since it functions the same as twave but has different targets and is a much less passive option than its other two moves. some off the top of my head are rotom, zapdos, swampert, volcarona, tapu bulu, mew, tangrowth, latias and landorus. in moves, mention flamethrower, knock off and wish as alternative options as they all have their uses.

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Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind / Thunder Wave / Toxic

spdefclef - this clefable is much more support orientated and functions moreso as a check to threatening special attackers. with sp def, it allows it to semi-reliably pivot into alakazam, kyurem, diancie, ashgren(especially if its surf), latios, avmag, torn, amongst others. this spread allows it to live a +2 acrobatics from hawlucha while retaining enough sp def to deal with the aformentioned threats. since this is set is pure utility, all the moves in the 4th slot are there to help support the team, with calm mind allowing it go toe to toe with opposing calm minders since it has the benefit of twave. in moves, mention stealth rock if the team has no other sr setter and seismic toss as a way to deal reliable chip vs enemies that moonblast wouldn't be able to break such as toxapex and magearna. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-427331 here it is clutching a win in spl vs fatty balance.

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Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 84 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Thunder Wave
- Moonblast
- Knock Off / Calm Mind / Wish

loclef - a personal favorite since this is a set that i popularized. life orb clef is an extremely potent balance and bo breaker that can dismantle a lot of common cores whilst being unexpected to say the least. the ev spread optimizes for as much damage output as possible while outspeeding and ohkoing standard mawile with fire blast. thunderbolt is able to 2hko pex after rocks, and has enough pp so that it can't recover stall it out, while also being able to chip heatran and surprise ko pelipper. in moves, mention flamethrower as a more reliable alternative, but being able to secure the guaranteed ohko vs mawile and spdef ferrothorn is too good to pass up. also mention calm mind over fire coverage with thunder over tbolt, as this set would be extremely nasty for stall and fat to deal with.

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Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Moonblast
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt

I'll post more tomorrow since the next couple are going to be annoying.

 

[JetpackPotatoes]

From Magnezone's analysis:"An EV spread consisting of 136 HP / 24 Def / 156 SpA / 192 Spe can be run to take a +2 Sucker Punch from Mega Mawile after Stealth Rock damage. " The speed investment hits 204 speed as modest or 224 speed as timid, both of which are irrelevant benchmarks that are over/under invested for opposing mons. The HP investment also means protect variants of Ferrothorn need more chip for Magnezone to beat it. Taking these details into account, I propose a spread of 24 HP / 128 Def / 140 SpA / 216 Spe with a modest nature. This spread outspeeds max investment adamant crawdaunt, puts as much into HP as possible without increasing leech seed recovery, still always survives a +2 sucker punch from Mega Mawile after rocks. If outspeeding Crawdaunt is deemed as irrelevant, then a spread of 24 HP / 128 Def / 180 SpA / 176 Spe would still outspeed Mega Mawile. Also, for the standard Z move spread and the Specs spread, would running 8 HP / 4 Def be overall more beneficial? The small cut in Spa wouldn't affect rolls much; an alternative cut in speed, while losing out on the opportunity to speed tie max spe zones, would lose little else.

 

[craing ;_;]

diancie - this analysis doesn't at all do this mon justice. diancie is an extremely potent mega with stellar offensive typing, stats and ability. why is the only set listed a protect+3 atks or sr+protect+2 attacks when this is a pokemon with no actual hard counter? first of all protect is extremely overrated and isn't at all mandatory like it was in oras to get the immediate speed boost. its sole function is to reliably enable magic bounce and to scout moves but more often than not, coverage is much more useful for a mon that has the speed and the wherewithal to threaten a majority of the metagame. secondly, while diancie is one of a few pokemon that can threaten a majority of defoggers and get up rocks vs stall, it can perform much more roles than that for a team. it is by no means a reliable sr setter because of its frailty and is in fact often paired with pokemon who are stealth rock weak themselves, as they appreciate its ability to deter rocks with magic bounce. as such, it is a bit nonsensical to give this mon the role as the sr setter when the whole idea is to keep rocks off(why get up rocks and take damage or die when they can get up rocks later which you will probably defog). because of this, it is important that you mention that even if you do run diancie, it often still necessitates defog support as it has trouble switching in to most common hazard setters. also remove calm mind in OO, there are better cm users in the tier and diancie has better options.

offensive - i took some liberties in altering the set, however i believe this is what it should look like. this is an offensive set sporting strong coverage and choice in utility between protect and stealth rock. protect obviously to scout and mega evolve safely, with stealth rock as a means to threaten teams diancie can't by itself break. as for coverage, moonblast and earth power should be self-explanatory but hp ice is preferred as it ohkos both nonyache landorus and gliscor, both of which can threaten the ohko back and get up rocks. hp fire is also slashed if your team has trouble dealing with scizor and ferrothorn mostly. in moves, mention diamond storm as it has strong neutral coverage, but is for the most part obsolete considering that the main targets it hits are threatened with stealth rock (do mention that it should run a hasty nature if so). also mention the combination of stealth rock+protect if your team doesn't need the coverage and would rather prefer the extra utility it provides.

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Diancie @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Protect / Stealth Rock
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire

alloutattacker - by sporting 4 attacks at the cost of utility, this opens up a lot of opportunities for diancie to break down walls it otherwise couldn't. by running 5 hp ivs with endeavor, diancie secures the 2hko vs chansey at full hp with the combination of endeavor+diamond storm. because of its naturally low hp, endeavor is also a nice cover all option vs most walls that that typically switch in, chunking them in the process and potentially putting them in 2hko range of any one attack. as such, it allows it to be useful even when it is low on hp. the rest of its coverage is dependent on your team, what you want to hit and are otherwise weak to. pairing this with strong special attackers that would be annoyed by similar walls makes the best use case for this set(cough volcarona). in moves, mention that one can forgo endeavor and opt to run an extra coverage slot if one desires to do so. also give a special mention to nature power since diancie is an excellent abuser of terrain. pairing it with koko allows it to break apart celepex with ease, bulu granting it passive recovery, a neutrality to earthquake and destroying bulky waters like gastrodon and rotom, and lele dealing with pesky poison types in pex, amoonguss, and venusaur.

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Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 5 HP
- Endeavor
- Diamond Storm
- Earth Power / Moonblast
- Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire

sub+endeavor - this set is a major boon for offensive builds as it performs similarly to a suicide lead. what it does exactly is more or less guarantee something to be extremely weakened while denying hazards with the combination of substitute+endeavor and magic bounce. it is best abused by forcing a switch or staying in on something that won't kill it, so it is ideal to not mega evolve in certain situations to take less damage from any one hit. the fact that it can keep rocks up, deny hazards and weaken anything despite typing disadvantage makes this deserving of its own set.

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Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Stealth Rock
- Endeavor
- Diamond Storm

sandexcadrill - in moves, mention stealth rock over swords dance. this relegates the role of a fast support mon that can control the hazard game for a team and is especially useful if your team doesn't have a better sr user(exca is most often paired with ttar, but ttar can run av, cb, or even mega dd and can't really fit rocks). also mention normalium z with giga impact as an alternative coverage in moves but don't give it a slash. this gives it coverage to hit rotom, pelliper and zapdos, while sporting better neutral coverage over z iron head. air balloon and leftovers both deserve a mention in the event that another member has a z crystal. air balloon allows it to not be forced out by ubiquitous ground types (especially if your team is weak to them which sand usually is) and leftovers allows it to switch in more often and shrug off any chip damage from hazards or resisted attacks. give mention to a choice scarf set in OO.

ferrothorn - why the fuck does its analysis not have stealth rock LOL. this is already giving me a headache just from looking at this. first of all, while spikes is extremely limited in distribution, stealth rock is usually the superior hazard on ferrothorn unless your team already has another sr user, especially considering that it pressures common defoggers such as torn and zap. secondly, dual stab ferrothorn is rarely ever used in favor of its other support moves but first, give mention to double hazard ferrothorn in the event that a team prefers to double down on hazard stack over the utility of its other moves. remove worry seed in OO, there is little to no use case for that over its limited moveset. mention rocky helmet and 50% berry in OO as alternative items to hold. mention bulldoze in OO to hit heatran and magnezone. also in your mention of chople berry in set details, explain that either twave or gyro ball(but not both) are acceptable accompaniments considering that gyro allows it to check bulu, lele, medicham, lopunny, heracross and alakazam.

hazardsetter - unfortunately ferrothorn is more or less the same as chansey in that it has a lot of viable set permutations that work depending on one's team, but I'm going to have to compile this all in one set considering it wouldn't make sense to divvy it up into several so forgive me for the clutter despite it being necessary. disregarding the hazard slot, i'm going to go through all the set permutations and explain why they work or don't work: gyro+whip works as obvious dual stab; protect+gyro is viable since gyro has better neutral coverage overall and the things you would need to hit with power whip more or less get stalled out with the combination of leech seed and protect; protect+whip is not viable however as it would render it walled completely by grass types; gyro+knock and whip+knock both work with either stab being used depending on what you need to hit since knock is a coverall option; twave+whip works especially since twave neuters the targets that gyro ball would hit; twave+gyro is not viable because obviously you nerf your own damage output. power whip is not at all mandatory as you make it out to be on the current analysis. just because it would keep water types more in line and make them easier to check, it leaves you open to other targets that it wouldn't necessarily be able to deal with. it all really depends on what your team is weak to and would need to use as a result of that.

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Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Sassy / Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock / Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball / Thunder Wave / Knock Off
- Power Whip / Protect / Knock Off

garchomp and friends coming soon, this is taking a lot longer than i expected,,,

 

[craing ;_;]

garchomp - remove mention of z outrage on the offensive sr set. the whole point of sd sr chomp is so that it can threaten every hazard deterrent in the game and it needs z stone edge to do that. that being said, i believe sd z outrage is deserving of its own set which i will later get into. remove dragon tail as a slash on the tankchomp set, roar accomplishes the same thing more or less with 100% efficiency. in moves, give mention to stomping tantrum if paired with tapu bulu, flamethrower as a more reliable alternative to fire blast, endure to rack up chip damage vs physical attackers and rock tomb as a way to threaten taunt tornadus, charizard and volcarona. in set detail, mention a bulkier spread allowing it to take on physical attackers much more handier such as excadrill, lopunny, kartana, scizor and tyranitar with a minimum speed benchmark of modest tran, but more speed to deal with base 80's is also acceptable. for mega sd, remove adamant entirely. jolly is too important to give up speed wise and remove stealth rock as well. while garchomp is a potent sr setter, the whole point of mega sd is to punch holes and potentially sweep and if your team is using sd megachomp it most likely has alternative sr setters(sand), otherwise this is just an inferior set to sd sr z rock chomp for the most part. slash fire fang after substitute, as it is a more flexible and reliable option to use to hit things like bulu, celesteela, skarmory, scizor and kartana, especially if sand is not up. also slash sand veil after rough skin. since this set is most likely going to be used with sand, sand veil is helpful in regards to easing set up and compliments substitute moreso than rough skin. for the mixedmegachomp revamp talah , is there any ohkos or 2hkos that megachomp avoids by running -def over -spdef nature? i personally prefer running -spdef since i prefer not being 2hkod by scarf landorus eq, being able to live a +2 eq from opposing chomp, and in general just taking on common physical attackers that garchomp can usually counteract such as steela, ferro, exca, sciz, ttar, tini, etc (also helps taking priority better). it still avoids the 2hko from rotom and fat torn with a -spdef nature so i would change the desired nature to rash with naive slashed after in case one prioritizes the speed more. in moves, give mention to earth power over earthquake if tapu bulu is run as a partner and stone edge over stealth rock as a means to more reliably dent flying types such as torn, zap and zard (mention that this mixed 4 atks set is best abused with sand support however). i would also give mention to life orb>garchompite as a potential item but don't give it a slash. life orb essentially gives it the same damage output as mega(with the added bonus of a stronger earthquake) and is a niche option if a team desires the mixed wallbreaking prowess but already has a mega slot. in OO, mention poison jab as a way to check tapu bulu as well as a choice scarf set (i personally think this deserves its own set but don't think you guys would appreciate the extra work for something relatively niche) being applicable because of its stellar speed stat.

swordsdance - now this is a set that i have been liking a lot as of late. this particular garchomp set is geared towards breaking down the more common bo and balance builds that are high in usage. this set differentiates itself from the standard sd sr z rock set by virtue of having a stronger nuking option in z outrage. with z outrage, it is able to render common switchins such as landorus, tangrowth, latias, rotom, mew and much more not actually a switchin. being able to more or less guarantee a ko after a sd opens a lot of opportunities in breaking apart the rest of the opponents team, whether for garchomp itself or its teammates. substitute is the preferred filler move to avoid status, leech seed, and most importantly easing prediction with z outrage; forcing them to stay in to break its sub. fire fang is slashed after as a way to hit mainly tapu bulu, skarmory, and celesteela(this dies to +4 z however) for substantial damage.

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Garchomp @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Substitute / Fire Fang

gliscor - i would honestly change the gliscor spread so that it at the very least creeps adamant max speed landorus, if not base 80s since it does not lose much evs in doing and i would argue those are threats that are just as threatening as heatran. i would also mention a slightly more physically defensive spread of Jolly 244 HP / 100 Def / 28 SpD / 136 Spe on the stealth rock set, allowing it guarantee live a +2 z rock from garchomp and +1 flare blitz from charizard, while also helping it take hits from the likes of excadrill, lopunny, mawile and tyranitar. it still is able to switch into non z heatran, magnezone and fat torn despite the lack of spdef investment. also mention that if checking physical attackers is less of a concern, putting the evs allocated in defense into spdef to let it better handle special attackers is also viable. for the defog set, remove taunt as a slash. mono eq gliscor with no other way to threaten things that aren't annoyed by eq with taunt is actually terrible. put knock off as the first slot with toxic slashed after, knock allowing it to break hazard setters easier such as toxapex, ferrothorn and landorus with toxic as a means to dissuade set up and to break down walls. mention a subtoxic set in OO, but say it's often outclassed in lieu of its other sets and that it necessitates more support to deal with more things it would be put in check by.

i was also planning to do greninja, but then i saw its analysis... -_- and garchomp took it all out of me so i'll save that sucker for next time.

 

[talah]

It avoids the 2hko from heatran magma as well as Aah Gren pump after a Spike, I think a few other things which I can't find on phone rn. I have been using Rash a bit more & do agree w u on it, though.

Ep>eq is something i do disagree on, I've used all of eq/tantrum/ep with Bulu and while going ep has its advantages, it is generally not quite as good as EQ, even with Bulu. Pex can eat one, regen out and survive the next one, AV Mag becomes a pivot into it, it does a lot less to Fini, etc. This IS nullified in terrain, so it does depend on the team, the Bulu set and terrain uptime.

the 4 attacks set does not deserve to be slashed, but could be in OO - it's far too niche to mention in the main analysis.

And since I did say that, your posts are very appreciated and you raise a lot of great points, however, some of your suggestions fall into that "bit too niche" category. You have to remember, on site analyses are mostly targeted towards newer players & cater to them more than anyone. Some slashes would get too confusing, some sets would be used more than they should, since a lot of new players don't have the experience to identify exactly why something is slashes the way it is. For example, you mention slashing Moonblast on Diancie; while you or anyone experienced in the meta can understand why that's the way it is, a lot of new players will not. Even if we incorporate the why into the analysis as eloquently as possible, it will still cause issues & it will still confuse.

Mentions like that, while not wrong per se are not worth to be written in due to that. Again, we do appreciate your work on this a ton and I can't stress that more, I just wanted to explain why we can't really implement everything you suggest.

 

[craing ;_;]

thanks for the feedback, i forgot that this is moreso catered towards beginners and simplifying these sets to the lowest common denominator is more preferable over comprehensively analyzing a mon in its entirety. i will attempt to the best of my ability to try to streamline the rest of these analyses that are left. i do agree that i may have went a bit overboard on diancie so i apologize for that. i'm just really anal and nitpicky when it comes to sets in general so feel free to take what i say with a grain of salt. as for garchomp however, mag shouldn't even switch in on garchomp unless under unique circumstances, and earth power has the benefit of not being affected by willowisp from rotom, scald from toxapex, and isnt affected by intimidate. also, an uninvested eq from a megachomp with no way to boost isn't going to net any crucial ohkos or 2hkos that earth power wouldn't unless vs like u said avmag and maybe avtar. im not saying earth power deserves a slash, just a mention in moves. also it isn't completely forced out by pex like you said with earth power, nor should fini be a concern since, as i said before, earth power should be run with bulu otherwise i agree that eq is the superior option. terrain uptime in general is actually very relevant considering that it really does limit garchomp's ability to switch in as often as it can if its running eq but i digress. it also has the benefit of not running a -def nature. also i never said stone edge should be slashed with stealth rock, but i will compromise and say that mixed 4 atks should be mentioned in OO at the very least.

i'll finish qcing some mons later today after my brain becomes unbroken from all of this lol.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Another small thing I found is in Gastrodon’s analysis, Celesteela is mentioned as a potential check due to the possibility of Giga Drain which it doesn’t run “Celesteela, while it often doesn’t do much to Gastrodon, can sometimes carry Giga Drain.” Mention how Leech Seed annoys and forces out Gastrodon eventually or just cut Celesteela out altogether. Same for Tapu Koko except it’s Grass Knot, it hasn’t seen very much use and I don’t think it deserves a mention.

 

[Jordy]

We'll gradually be implementing changes to the analyses on-site, I'll use this post to summarize all the changes that are and aren't made.

• Alakazam
  • A Modest nature was put in Set Details rather than as a slash because we felt that there aren't enough teams that don't really desire a Timid nature to warrant a slash.
  • Psyshock has been removed from the Life Orb set.
  • Shadow Ball is now the 3rd move and Recover has been removed.
  • Hidden Power Fire and Hidden Power Ice have replaced Recover.
• Blacephalon
  • Choice Scarf has been moved to Other Options.
  • Choice Specs has been moved to the first set.
  • The Choice Specs set has been changed to the following:
    • move 1: Fire Blast
      move 2: Shadow Ball
      move 3: Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Grass
      move 4: Trick
    • We decided against slashing Overheat with Fire Blast for analysis purposes.
    • I also used this opportunity to defluff Moves.
  • 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 has also been added to Set Details on Blacephalon's Subsitute + Calm Mind set.
• Chansey
  • While Chansey can indeed be run on different teams, we felt that having 2 different sets was rather redundant.
    • Rather than slashing stuff, we decided that mentioning other options in Moves would be better.
  • Wish and Thunder Wave are now mentioned as options in Moves now.
  • I've used this opportunity to remove some redundant fluff in Moves and Set Details.
• Mega Charizard X
  • Dragon Claw has been slashed with Earthquake.
  • 3 Attacks + Dragon Dance is now a mention in Moves as a viable option.
  • An Adamant nature did not get a mention for analysis purposes. Additionally, we felt like it didn't offer much anyway.
  • Fire Punch, Outrage, Will-O-Wisp, and Toxic are now mentioned in Other Options.
  • While Dragon Dance is definitely the more viable and threatening set right now, we think that 3 Attacks + Roost is definitely still viable enough to have its own set considering how differently it plays from its Dragon Dance set.
• Mega Charizard Y
  • Fire Blast has been slashed with Flamethrower.
  • Defog is now slashed with Solar Beam.
• Mega Diancie
  • Will be getting revamped.
• Excadrill
  • Stealth Rock is now mentioned in Moves.
  • Giga Impact + Normalium Z has been added to Moves too.
  • Air Balloon has been added to Set Details.
  • We were generally unsure about adding Choice Scarf to Other Options, could you provide a bit more context?
• Ferrothorn
  • Stealth Rock is now backslashed behind Spikes, as we felt like you generally get more out of Ferrothorn with Spikes, while enough teams with Ferrothorn can fit Stealth Rock on another Pokemon.
  • I adjusted the slashing according to your suggestion.
    • I also added a line at the end of Moves that suggests that you should be considerate when picking what moves Ferrothorn should run because it can offer various forms of support.
  • Gyro Ball is now mentioned as an option on Chople Berry sets.
  • Worry Seed has been removed from Other Options.
  • Rocky Helmet, Iapapa Berry, and Bulldoze are now mentioned in Other Options.
• Garchomp
  • All mentions of Dragonium Z + Outrage have been removed and it's been moved down to Other Options.
  • Dragon Tail has been removed from TankChomp, as it is vastly inferior to Roar.
  • Stomping Tantrum, Flamethrower, and Rock Tomb are all mentioned in Moves now.
    • Endure is mentioned in Other Options.
  • 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 Spe with a Jolly nature is now mentioned in Set Details.
  • On the Mega Swords Dance set, Stealth Rock has been removed.
  • Fire Fang is now backslashed behind Substitute.
  • A Jolly nature is now the sole nature on the Mega Swords Dance set.
  • Sand Veil has been slashed.
• We'll discuss this more, but Choice Scarf and Swords Dance + Dragonium Z Garchomp aren't going to get a set currently.
• Gliscor
  • The universal spread is now 244 HP / 52 Def / 76 SpD / 136 Spe with a Jolly nature to outspeed Hoopa-U, Adamant Landorus-T, and Timid Heatran.
  • A more physically defensive spread (244 HP / 100 Def / 28 SpD / 136 Spe) is now mentioned in every Set Details.
  • Taunt has been removed from Defog Gliscor in favor of Knock Off.
  • SubToxic has been added to Other Options.

More soon..

 

[NotInMyChristianServer]

I noticed how in Stealth Rock Gliscor set, on Team Option U-turn get's mentioned as the set's main point, as it isn't even slashed, just a modest mention in moves.

Paragraph in question

"Late-game cleaners such as Mega Lopunny and Swords Dance Mega Pinsir appreciate Gliscor's ability to wear down the opposing team with both Stealth Rock and repeated U-turns into wallbreakers. Additionally, other users of U-turn and Volt Switch, such as Tapu Koko and Mega Scizor, can form a VoltTurn core with Gliscor and maintain offensive pressure throughout the game."

I propose to tweak said section to mention defensive pivots/walls that appreciate Gliscor's typing, ability or other atributes:

My Propose

Defensive pivots that cover Gliscor's weakness to Ice and Water are greatly appreciated, such as Rotom-Wash, Toxapex, Tapu Fini, Ferrothorn and Assault Vest Magearna. Likewise, other Pokémons that dislike getting their items removed, such as Clefable and the aforementioned Tapu Fini and Magearna make for excellent partners.

 

[bigtalk]

Jordy Why would you slash Solar Beam on zard y, a large part of its offensive prowess comes from the fact that it can threaten non-pex water types. Focus Blast is more expendable no?

 

[Jordy]

bigtalk Mega Charizard Y absolutely has to be able to hit Mega Tyranitar, Tyranitar, and most importantly, Heatran to be considered as a Defogger to begin with. Dropping Solar Beam is definitely the best possible thing to do because Water-types like Tapu Fini and Rotom-W are worn down pretty easily. Besides, while they can be annoying, they're not particularly hard to cover with the rest of your team.

 

[Johnny's Pouch]

On scolipede's analysis, it says that it runs a jolly nature to outpace choice scarf latios and keldeo, both of which are nonexistent in ou currently. If thats all scolipede needs to outpace, can scolipede at least have an adamant nature slashed with jolly?

 

[Mellow]

On scolipede's analysis, it says that it runs a jolly nature to outpace choice scarf latios and keldeo, both of which are nonexistent in ou currently. If thats all scolipede needs to outpace, can scolipede at least have an adamant nature slashed with jolly?

outspeeding scarf kart is probably too important

 

[xapx]

To add on Mellow, you also get outsped by base 100s like volc and zard x and jolly mpert in rain which sucks

 

[TURBODERP]

bigtalk Mega Charizard Y absolutely has to be able to hit Mega Tyranitar, Tyranitar, and most importantly, Heatran to be considered as a Defogger to begin with. Dropping Solar Beam is definitely the best possible thing to do because Water-types like Tapu Fini and Rotom-W are worn down pretty easily. Besides, while they can be annoying, they're not particularly hard to cover with the rest of your team.

Yup, what you said is pretty true-it's not like Rotom-Wash and Tapu Fini are also diverse offensive threats that are hard to cover and must be accounted for in team-building (on the level of Greninja or Magearna).

Also, Focus Blast still does a ton to Rotom-Wash, and it doesn't even eat Fire Blast THAT well (32-38%). Yes, Zard Y is forced out after (and without Solar Beam Fini laughs at you), but it's not like Rotom-Wash can come in forever (even more so if it's not Pain Split), especially if you have SR up.

Plus, until Defog becomes mainstream on Zard Y, I don't think you'll really see a lot of higher-ladder players stay in with a Rotom-Wash or Tapu Fini on a Zard Y, because of the risk-reward ratio being heavily lopsided: losing those opens up holes for stuff like Kyurem-Black/whatever sweeper to come in and wreak havoc, while at full, Zard Y lives any hit from Fini/Rotom-Wash (assuming it's not Waterium-Z Rotom).

 

[Alumn]

I don't know if this is an error but we talk about Ice Beam for Ash-Greninja when he doesn't have that on the set.