Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking

I know I couldnt think of another simple - manipulator
That makes me wonder: 1. how did you miss Simple Gorebyss/Huntail (SmashPass), Simple Smeargle (Shift Gear/Shell Smash/Quiver Dance/TAIL GLOW+Baton Pass), Simple Venomoth (QuiverPass?), and 2: how good would those be?
 
So, I was thinking on the original purpose of the thread, to take a bad pokemon (for OU) and try to come up with something that can make it viable.
I thought of him:

This guy is a serious threat in NU but in OU it has so many problems that i doubt anyone has ever considered using it.
Swellow, once he activates guts, is actually really powerfull but lacks a way to get past steel- and rock- types, so:
what if swellow learned Flare Blitz, Close Combat, or Superpower (only one)?

Flavor-wise, for Flare Blitz I could argue that swellow is obviously based on a swallow, which is the bird that represented Japan's WWII kamikaze planes, so a gutsy flaming bird coming at you at full speed (383 max) hitting you and eating a nasty recoil sounds appropiate. Close Combat could be justified because its fellow bird Staraptor gets it, while superpower is learned by Braviary.

I think a set would look like this:

Swellow Toxic Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 4 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz / Close Combat / Superpower (whichever move it gets, I like Flare Blitz more)
- U-turn / Quick Attack

I'm too lazy for calcs right now but maybe later if somene else find this interesting.
 
So, I was thinking on the original purpose of the thread, to take a bad pokemon (for OU) and try to come up with something that can make it viable.
I thought of him:

This guy is a serious threat in NU but in OU it has so many problems that i doubt anyone has ever considered using it.
Swellow, once he activates guts, is actually really powerfull but lacks a way to get past steel- and rock- types, so:
what if swellow learned Flare Blitz, Close Combat, or Superpower (only one)?

Flavor-wise, for Flare Blitz I could argue that swellow is obviously based on a swallow, which is the bird that represented Japan's WWII kamikaze planes, so a gutsy flaming bird coming at you at full speed (383 max) hitting you and eating a nasty recoil sounds appropiate. Close Combat could be justified because its fellow bird Staraptor gets it, while superpower is learned by Braviary.

I think a set would look like this:

Swellow Toxic Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 4 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz / Close Combat / Superpower (whichever move it gets, I like Flare Blitz more)
- U-turn / Quick Attack

I'm too lazy for calcs right now but maybe later if somene else find this interesting.
Staraptor hits harder than Swellow thanks to Reckless and the ability to use a Choice Band, and can also be faster than Swellow by donning a Choice Scarf. Close Combat>Superpower, but Staraptor hits harder on its Close Combat anyway. Staraptor also doesn't have to take Toxic Orb damage, although Double-Edge and Brave Bird means it isn't going to be living that long anyways.

Close Combat Swellow might be interesting in tiers below OU though. But it still can't get past Gligar, lol.
 

Codraroll

Cod Mod
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
So is everyone ignoring my "what if"? Because if Serperior had all the listed stuff it would be devastating and Pokemon I noticed that can also may wall the Serperior is Skarmory and Heatran, except the fact that Heatran is really hurt by CC and Superpower.
It looks... well, I understand you want to make Serperior good, but this seems like total overkill.

And why would you want to use Coil on a Contrary set?
 
What if Kyruem-B had it's HP and Speed stats switched around?
Flavour wise, doesn't make heaps of sense but when it changes into it's new form but the joining of 2 forms allow it to move faster? Grasping at flavour straws here, not gonna lie.

But competitively, how do we think it could fair? Defensively it gets crippled more so. Losing 30 base HP points is a lot and doesn't change it's weakness to rocks and Bullet Punch. Yet offensively, you get the fastest dragon in Pokemon outside of Choice Scarf. You now out speed Dugtrio, Alakzam and Starmie. Spec Keledo can no long keep SPAMing Secret Sword cause now you are fast enough to KO back with outrage.

It would make KB better late game and would be a good wall breaker allowing more EVs into it's attacking stats but priority still kills it.
 

Pikachuun

the entire waruda machine
What if Kyurem-B got STAB on Fusion Bolt (but still has Dragon/Ice typing)?

Think about it. Kyurem-B is literally the fusion of Zekrom and Kyurem, so it only makes sense that it should get the same STAB bonus that Zekrom gets.

So what do I think will happen? This will finally be the nail in the coffin for Kyub in OU. With a STAB 100 BP Physical attack (It's not ice but so what), this behemoth will finally get the double physical STAB it dreamed of. Everything else is the same, including Fusion Bolt's electric typing. Just look at the difference!
Before:
252+ Atk Life Orb Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 218-257 (66.66 - 78.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
After:
252+ Atk Life Orb Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 328-385 (100.3 - 117.73%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This STAB boost turns that 2HKO that Skar can easily take advantage of and stall out your PP to a clean OHKO, bypassing Sturdy thanks to Teravolt!
Unfortunately, the Outrage/Fusion Bolt core is stopped by Forretress and Ferrothorn, which can easily be worked around with Hidden Power Fire, a classic move on its mixed set.

So what do you think will happen?
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
What if Castform had a stat spread of 70/70/70/115/70/125 when in weather forms?
Pretty much anything would be better if you gave it blistering Speed and an above average SpA stat. It would be a potent revenge killer for any Weather team though, seeing as it has outstanding coverage and can abuse powerful STAB moves like Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, Blizzard or Ice Beam, and Thunder or Thunderbolt for coverage, while also outspeeding a majority of the tier. It would still be very weather dependent however, so keeping weather up would be a priority if you want to abuse this thing to its greatest potential. It would be a decent Pokemon, but not amazing.
 

ShootingStarmie

Bulletproof
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I got this idea while watching a Balanced Hackmons game.

What if Registeel, Regirock, and Regice got Recover?

I think Registeel and Regirock both have a lot of potential. Registeel has a pretty cool mono steel typing and titanic special and physical defense. Regirock would be an extremely good tank in SandStorm, as it has a base 200 defense stat and a base 100 SpDef stat which is boosted by Sandstorm. Both can set up SR, use Thunder Wave, and obviously reliable recovery. Regice I think could have some potential in OU, as it's incredible SpDef set can not be ignored. However, being weak to SR, and not really supporting the team much, I don't see it happening. So yeah, what do you guys think?
 

BurningMan

fueled by beer
It would make them better, but not OU viable. Their problem is that they simply lack any offensive presence similar to Chansey/Blissey making them easy to set-up on by alot of things that won't get crippled by T-Wave (quite a lot of things). Registeel still faces competition from Jirachi which has inferior defensive stats, but a way better move pool that allows it to be a much better team supporter. Regirock and Regice still have the worst defensive typings in the game and there isn't much they can actually stop in the tier as almost every sweeper hits them for SE damage, now before you bring out the damage calcs and tell me how they even survive super effective Stab attacks; yes i know they got amazing defensive stats and will survive these hits, but not with nearly enough health to be any useful after that since they are turtle slow so even paralyzed threats can 2HKO them before they can get health back with recover.
 
Curse + Recover Regirock in sandstorm is definitely worth a look, the main problem being that it's still vulnerable to Scald burns and Toxic
 

Chou Toshio

Over9000
is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
What if Castform had a stat spread of 70/70/70/115/70/125 when in weather forms?
Again, I'd appreciate it if we could avoid just adjustments to base stats-- it doesn't make for much creativity or interest. In fact, I'm going to change the OP to reflect this right now.
 

Legitimate Username

mad tales of a bloodthirsty corviknight
is a Top Artist Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I've used Registeel a lot in DPP UU, and ever since then I've been hoping with all my heart that Game Freak gave Recover to that thing. Just look at this.

252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 154-182 (42.3 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 146-172 (40.1 - 47.25%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Seriously, this guy can wall KYUREM-B of all things. The main problem is that outside of Thunder Wave (which is still very useful), it can't really retaliate, relying on Seismic Toss to hit most things. Its weaknesses to Fighting and Ground can easily be capitalized on, although it does have the gift of a rain based metagame to help deal with fire attacks.

As someone who uses Porygon2 a lot, I think that Registeel would be of similar value as a mixed wall. It's not quite as bulky, and isn't as threatening offensively, but it has the advantage of the many resistances that Steel typing brings, letting it wall certain threats with greater ease. It definitely won't be OU, but it'll still have use as a bulky pivot.
 
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 154-182 (42.3 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 146-172 (40.1 - 47.25%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Taking non-stab attacks from a powerful but fairly infrequent threat isn't really a fair example.


252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 212-252 (58.24 - 69.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 318-374 (87.36 - 102.74%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 304-359 (83.51 - 98.62%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Registeel: 152-182 (41.75 - 50%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 198-234 (54.39 - 64.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Aside from Heatran, all of these pokemon can set up on Registeel, with Thunder Wave being the only thing Registeel can threaten with. I also used Registeel in 4th gen, but that was back when having some attack investment meant that carrying Ice Punch and Thunder Punch could allow it to take out some of the strongest threats in the game. I think Registeel's salvation would come in the form of an ability change, rather than a movepool change. Pure Power, Analytic or even Download would allow Registeel to not be set up fodder to some extent.
 

Legitimate Username

mad tales of a bloodthirsty corviknight
is a Top Artist Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Eh, I think that walling the most unwallable threat in the game is an achievement in itself. Of course it's hampered by a Fighting-type metagame and lack of offensive presence, so it wouldn't be OU. With defensive pivots, you generally switch them in on something that can't 2HKO it (choice/Outrage locked dragons are a big example), and threaten them out, as Thunder Wave is enough of a deterrent for that. Access to Recover would prevent such threats from being able to wear Registeel down should they stay in. Of course switching in on Terrakion is a bad idea. As I said before, Registeel would not be OU, but it would definitely have a niche as a pivot, especially in rain. Also, Huge Power is kind of a stupid prospect (Azumarill with only base 50 Atk can abuse it), although Analytic would be pretty interesting.
 
I have no comment on the previous suggestions but here's one I've always thought about it.


What if Gengar got Aura Sphere?

Gengar@Black Sludge
Timid Nature, 252 Sp.Atk 252 Spd, 4 Def
-Shadow Ball
-Substitute
-Disable
-Aura Sphere

How would this affect it? Would it be better than Focus Blast?
 
I have no comment on the previous suggestions but here's one I've always thought about it.


What if Gengar got Aura Sphere?

Gengar@Black Sludge
Timid Nature, 252 Sp.Atk 252 Spd, 4 Def
-Shadow Ball
-Substitute
-Disable
-Aura Sphere

How would this affect it? Would it be better than Focus Blast?

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 328-390 (81.18 - 96.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 250-296 (61.88 - 73.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 252-299 (71.59 - 84.94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 190-224 (53.97 - 63.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Only significant difference is missing out on the potential OHKO on max SpD Ttar after SR. Nothing really game changing, it just means not having to clench your butt every time you click Focus Blast.
 
it would probably make him quite a bit better, aura sphere has more PP than focus blast along with more accuracy

having to rely on focus blast sucks, now that he would have a reliable move, he would be much scarier
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
I think it would make gengar worse.

Simply because of how much weaker it is

But how much more ideal it is.

Focus blast sucks for consistency, but it is fantastic when it hits, and it only takes a bit of good luck for it to do some major work with it.
 

Legitimate Username

mad tales of a bloodthirsty corviknight
is a Top Artist Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I don't really understand how the addition of a new move could make possibly it worse, considering that Gengar isn't losing anything. Especially since Focus Blast's average base power is only 84 (aka less than 90) when factoring in accuracy, and Strykeypoo's calcs showed that Aura Sphere still has the power to do almost everything Focus Blast can. There's no more reason to use Focus Blast over Aura Sphere than there is to use Blizzard over Ice Beam on a non-Hail team.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top