You forgot Cryogonal and Hitmonlee.
Basically nobody disagreed with my post, could we have some support please? :)
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The UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter PK Gaming
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You forgot Cryogonal and Hitmonlee.
Basically nobody disagreed with my post, could we have some support please? :)
I second the opinion that crygonal is awesome, is it is virtually impossible to spinblock: 252+ SpA Cofagrigus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Cryogonal: 78-94 (22.74 - 27.4%) -- possible 5HKO, it has access to instant recovery as well as haze to stop set-up sweepers and its special bulk is comparable to that of snorlax/umbreon. Admittedly, its physical defense is weak as shit and so it does require some support to use (Crobat resists the fighting types that would otherwise ruin Cryogonal's day and really appreciates the lack of SR) but its still a solid B-Rank poke IMO.
I have yet to test Cryogonal, so I can't really comment on that matter. What does it pair well with?
As for Magneton: I find SubRise to be extremely powerful, but the one thing that bothers me to no end is the fact that most teams carry 2 Ground-types so one HP would not cut it. The biggest problems Magneton has are Umbreon, P2 and Swampert which is mildly annoying, seeing as those three are used fairly often. You'd have to run Charge Beam for Umbreon, Volt Switch for P2 and HP Grass for Swampert. In other words, it is impossible to get past those buggers without giving up the power and coverage of BoltBeam or dualSTABs
As for Magneton: I find SubRise to be extremely powerful, but the one thing that bothers me to no end is the fact that most teams carry 2 Ground-types so one HP would not cut it. The biggest problems Magneton has are Umbreon, P2 and Swampert which is mildly annoying, seeing as those three are used fairly often. You'd have to run Charge Beam for Umbreon, Volt Switch for P2 and HP Grass for Swampert. In other words, it is impossible to get past those buggers without giving up the power and coverage of BoltBeam or dualSTABs
Warb: Slowbro makes for a nice partner, as his physical defense compliments Cryogonal's enormous base 135 SDef nicely. Moreover his typing allows him to shrug off the fighting and fire-type (and even steel-type?) attacks that are aimed at his buddy crygonal whilst the absence of entry hazards makes regenerator all the more useful. Finally, the fact that both of them have access to Recover and Slack Off respectively means that this defensive core is quite hard to wear down. I'd be quite interested to see what the rest o' y'all think...
Cryogonal also works well with a Life Orb set in my opinion, but the Special Defensive set seems superior over it (?).
Another good partner for Cryogonal (and Slowbro) is Choice Band Flygon, as it takes on specially defensive threats that Cryogonal (nor Slowbro without Psyshock) easier, it's resistant to Stealth Rock and immune to Spikes hazards as well as the fact that it can U-Turn back and forth. Finally, Flygon's 4x weakness to Ice is covered by Cryogonal (and Slowbro) very well respectively, making good synergy between them. (Just my opinion)
Another good partner for Cryogonal (and Slowbro) is Choice Band Flygon, as it takes on specially defensive threats that Cryogonal (nor Slowbro without Psyshock) easier, it's resistant to Stealth Rock and immune to Spikes hazards as well as the fact that it can U-Turn back and forth. Finally, Flygon's 4x weakness to Ice is covered by Cryogonal (and Slowbro) very well respectively, making good synergy between them. (Just my opinion)
Hitmonlee has already been debated several pages back metal sonic.
As for cryogonal...I think C-rank would be fair, though I'd be more in favour of an offensive set with life orb and HP ground. If you predict correctly, you can 2HKO every spinblocker in the tier (I think), which is pretty damn good IMO, since other spinners require foresight or are hopeless vs ghosts (for reference, defensive cofagrigus is a 50/50 chance to be 2HKO'd without hazards, but still pretty good considering).
The near non-existent physical defensive, and somewhat prediction reliant nature does give it flaws, but otherwise, I'd say its a great spinner which can actually inflict damage unlike the other spinners of UU...
As for cryogonal...I think C-rank would be fair, though I'd be more in favour of an offensive set with life orb and HP ground. If you predict correctly, you can 2HKO every spinblocker in the tier (I think), which is pretty damn good IMO, since other spinners require foresight or are hopeless vs ghosts (for reference, defensive cofagrigus is a 50/50 chance to be 2HKO'd without hazards, but still pretty good considering).
The near non-existent physical defensive, and somewhat prediction reliant nature does give it flaws, but otherwise, I'd say its a great spinner which can actually inflict damage unlike the other spinners of UU...
Timid Cryo vs OTR Cofag
252 SpA Life Orb Cryogonal Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Cofagrigus: 157-187 (49.21 - 58.62%) -- 69.53% chance to 2HKO
So that's a 2HKO with Stealth Rocks up, wow. It's got great speed too. It outspeeds Banded Flygon, the grass types, and non-Scarf Victini.
252 SpA Life Orb Cryogonal Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Cofagrigus: 157-187 (49.21 - 58.62%) -- 69.53% chance to 2HKO
So that's a 2HKO with Stealth Rocks up, wow. It's got great speed too. It outspeeds Banded Flygon, the grass types, and non-Scarf Victini.
TCTphantom
formerly MX42
inb4 cyro becomes uu
But yea, Cyro is best spinner in uu imo. Only competition is Blastoise. Recover, speed, and offensive pressure are its pros over toise.
But yea, Cyro is best spinner in uu imo. Only competition is Blastoise. Recover, speed, and offensive pressure are its pros over toise.
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
Hitmontop is still quite good, it beats a lot of spinblockers like cryo does, but it has solid stats, great ability, deals real damage like cryo.
Cryo still has to overcome its typing, its offensive movepool, its physical defense, and the fact that it's a spin blocker weak to SR, hitmontop can be just as good.
It compliments hail that does well in UU, and it's solid, but it's not the best.
Cryo still has to overcome its typing, its offensive movepool, its physical defense, and the fact that it's a spin blocker weak to SR, hitmontop can be just as good.
It compliments hail that does well in UU, and it's solid, but it's not the best.
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Cryo gets more chances to spin than any other spinner in the tier (it's immune to ground, it's fast with good special defense, it forces out things like zapdos and nidos, it has recover) but it gives a lot of things easy switchins like chandelure/victini and it has little supportive presence outside of spinning, without the ability to phaze/SR like other spinners, plus it loses straight up to virtually every SR setter. As someone whose highest ever ladder alt was achieved with a cryo team, I do think it is the second best spinner (blastoise is the best, but it competes with far better bulky waters) but really not that good in general.
"Cryogonal is one of the few Rapid Spin users in the Underused metagame with reliable recovery. It has a very good Special Defense stat, and its ability Levitate helps make it the second best spinner in the metagame, surpassed only by Claydol."
Shoutouts to the Smogon article. Lol. But in order to actually put some substance in this post, I never used Cryogonal before. All the stuff it's got going on is pretty interesting, and Ice + Ground (Hidden Power) coverage gives it a pretty wide spread of Pokemon to take on in just 2 moves alone which is kinda solid even if the output isn't the most desirable. Are there any key special attackers Cryogonal loses to, though?
Shoutouts to the Smogon article. Lol. But in order to actually put some substance in this post, I never used Cryogonal before. All the stuff it's got going on is pretty interesting, and Ice + Ground (Hidden Power) coverage gives it a pretty wide spread of Pokemon to take on in just 2 moves alone which is kinda solid even if the output isn't the most desirable. Are there any key special attackers Cryogonal loses to, though?
TPO3
Never practice; Always perform.
Cryogonal definitely has some potential. I've played against PIF before when he was using it back in the day, and the offensive spinner does do pretty well. But I feel like B-rank is just a bit high. While having Levitate is great for being immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes (and Earthquake too I guess, even though any other physical attack at all takes you out.), you have to remember that there's ~3 spikers and ~2 Toxic Spikers in the tier. The main thing Cryogonal is going to be spinning away is Stealth Rock, which it is weak to. Even with base 135 Special Defense, if rocks are up, switching Cryogonal in is going to be difficult. It's going to be taking a total of 50% from pretty much anything. If you have to drop a turn on Recover, you're not doing your job, which is rapid spinning.
I'd also like to point out that ice is really really bad defensive typing. If you look at the Special Attackers from both S and A rank, there are 13 Special Attackers. Quite a few of them will beat Offensive Cryogonal all the time, and even more have the potential to do so either with support or with prediction moves. OTR Cofagrigus is the only one that really loses out if Cryo opts to run the defensive set intead, but then Zapdos and Shaymin outspeed while Raikou can use it as setup bait barring a freeze. Cryo can be threatening under the right circumstances, since its combination of Special Attack, Speed, Levitate, and instant Recovery can be toyed with, but I think it just needs too much support for it to really be up in B-rank, where other mons are.
I'd also like to point out that ice is really really bad defensive typing. If you look at the Special Attackers from both S and A rank, there are 13 Special Attackers. Quite a few of them will beat Offensive Cryogonal all the time, and even more have the potential to do so either with support or with prediction moves. OTR Cofagrigus is the only one that really loses out if Cryo opts to run the defensive set intead, but then Zapdos and Shaymin outspeed while Raikou can use it as setup bait barring a freeze. Cryo can be threatening under the right circumstances, since its combination of Special Attack, Speed, Levitate, and instant Recovery can be toyed with, but I think it just needs too much support for it to really be up in B-rank, where other mons are.
Cryogonal does have access to Haze to stop Raikou from setting up on it, though admittedly it will take up Toxic's moveslot and render it helpless against stuff like Slowbro and Snorlax. A severe case of 4MSS as seen here.
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Pursuit vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Cryogonal (switching out): 314-370 (107.9 - 127.14%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Darmanitan U-turn vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Cryogonal: 257-304 (88.31 - 104.46%) -- OHKO after stealth rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Abomasnow Ice Punch vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Cryogonal: 195-230 (67.01 - 79.03%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
12 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Cryogonal: 214-253 (73.53 - 86.94%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
How can something that can't take any sort of physical hit be B rank for a support role?
252 Atk Life Orb Darmanitan U-turn vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Cryogonal: 257-304 (88.31 - 104.46%) -- OHKO after stealth rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Abomasnow Ice Punch vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Cryogonal: 195-230 (67.01 - 79.03%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
12 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Cryogonal: 214-253 (73.53 - 86.94%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
How can something that can't take any sort of physical hit be B rank for a support role?
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pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
i humbly ask that pif rank be deleted and when it is this post to be deleted too
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
at least put a better looking guy up please
Kokoloko is a total babe magnet I have no clue what you are talking about.
Actually my buddy (who I guess y'all know as Serene Silk) is a big fan of both Magneton and Cryogonal and I have a lot of experience playing against the two pokes.
On Magneton: I think we're both in agreement that Analytic Choice Specs is actually its best set. Steel Trapper is not bad and is definitely worth using on a very specific kind of team, but Specs is just too strong. Analytic triggers on switches, which synergizes perfectly with Volt Switch.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 200 SpD Snorlax: 178-211 (38.61 - 45.77%)
compared to
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 200 SpD Snorlax: 121-144 (26.24 - 31.23%)
Steel trapper isn't bad and is definitely a niche but Specs hits so hard and with Flash Cannon demolishing Gligar and Flygon, Magneton is free to run HP Grass to destroy Swampert without losing coverage. Either move wrecks Rhyperior of course.
It's not what I'd call a top tier threat but with Analytic its excellent typing giving it an additional STAB and some amazing resistances with some bulk allowing it take stuff like Outrages and Bolt Beam means it definitely has a niche.
Cryogonal can be really annoying with its high speed and instant recovery but in addition to its no physical bulk as said it has poorly placed and insufficient resistances- which defensive Pokemon should really be contributing to the team. It is also highly susceptible to rocks and status. I think it's definitely usable as with its recovery it can spin and heal again and again on bulky waters, especially if you're the spdef set. IIRC no other spinner usable in UU has reliable recovery. Unless Delibird gets Roost lol. So I think it's definitely usable on a team that can really make it shine.
On Magneton: I think we're both in agreement that Analytic Choice Specs is actually its best set. Steel Trapper is not bad and is definitely worth using on a very specific kind of team, but Specs is just too strong. Analytic triggers on switches, which synergizes perfectly with Volt Switch.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Magneton Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 200 SpD Snorlax: 178-211 (38.61 - 45.77%)
compared to
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 200 SpD Snorlax: 121-144 (26.24 - 31.23%)
Steel trapper isn't bad and is definitely a niche but Specs hits so hard and with Flash Cannon demolishing Gligar and Flygon, Magneton is free to run HP Grass to destroy Swampert without losing coverage. Either move wrecks Rhyperior of course.
It's not what I'd call a top tier threat but with Analytic its excellent typing giving it an additional STAB and some amazing resistances with some bulk allowing it take stuff like Outrages and Bolt Beam means it definitely has a niche.
Cryogonal can be really annoying with its high speed and instant recovery but in addition to its no physical bulk as said it has poorly placed and insufficient resistances- which defensive Pokemon should really be contributing to the team. It is also highly susceptible to rocks and status. I think it's definitely usable as with its recovery it can spin and heal again and again on bulky waters, especially if you're the spdef set. IIRC no other spinner usable in UU has reliable recovery. Unless Delibird gets Roost lol. So I think it's definitely usable on a team that can really make it shine.
Not much to say on Magneton cause Lovelace covered any thoughts I have on it basically.
As much as I like Cryogonal, it definitely needs team support so I could never really see it being higher than C rank.
Cons:
1.) Predictability: You are going to be running Ice Beam, Rapid Spin and probably Recover for sure. Then you are left to run either HP (Ground or Electric) or Haze. Now if you drop Haze, some other team member will have to pick up the phazing so anything that sets up is taken care off. However if you don't pick up HP Ground Electric, you severely limit what you can stay in on. (I don't know why HP Fire is listed on Smogon and HP electric isn't since Cryogonal has such an easy time switching into scald and take very little damage from it. Not even sure why you'd want to stay in on a steel type anyways since almost all steels hit physical and Cryogonal isn't going to take any physical hit period, and especially a super effective one at that)
2.) Terrible Defense: yeah, not much is needed to be said on this. It can barely even take weak physical Not Very Effective hits, let alone Neutral ones. This leaves it extremely vulnerable to Pursuit and common priority moves which is pretty terrible. Also the fact that it's weak to both Fighting and Fire attacks in a Tier where almost every team has 1 of each is also terrible.
3.) SR weakness: for a spinner, this is pretty terrible, especially since SR is so common and pretty easy to set up. This combine with the fact that it will generally be forced to switch out fairly quickly (due to physical attackers and etc) means it'll be taking this damage everytime and you have to waste a turn recovering.
Pros:
1.) Highly specially defensive: Means it can easily switch into most special types and easily spin. It can take special hits without too much fear.
2.) Recovery: It's the only spinner in the tier with reliable recovery. This means as long you play it smart, Toxic and Burns aren't as big of a deal and it can heal damage it takes fairly quickly.
3.) Offense: High speed and a very usable Special Attack stat make it viable enough to use on more offensive/balanced teams, much like Kabutops except Specially rather than physically.
4.) Immunity to spikes: A very large boon to have on a spinner, since unlike all the other spinners on the tier, levitate prevents it from taking status due to toxic spikes and it also isn't taking damage from regular spikes.
Basically, the Cons it has are too strong for it to really be any higher than C, but it's Pros due give it a very useful niche so if your team supports it right, you can be better of using it over some of the other spinners.
Also curious as to why Kabutops isn't ranked. I thought it was before. Did it get accidentally deleted or something? It's another viable rapid spinner that has offensive presence + priority stab.
As much as I like Cryogonal, it definitely needs team support so I could never really see it being higher than C rank.
Cons:
1.) Predictability: You are going to be running Ice Beam, Rapid Spin and probably Recover for sure. Then you are left to run either HP (Ground or Electric) or Haze. Now if you drop Haze, some other team member will have to pick up the phazing so anything that sets up is taken care off. However if you don't pick up HP Ground Electric, you severely limit what you can stay in on. (I don't know why HP Fire is listed on Smogon and HP electric isn't since Cryogonal has such an easy time switching into scald and take very little damage from it. Not even sure why you'd want to stay in on a steel type anyways since almost all steels hit physical and Cryogonal isn't going to take any physical hit period, and especially a super effective one at that)
2.) Terrible Defense: yeah, not much is needed to be said on this. It can barely even take weak physical Not Very Effective hits, let alone Neutral ones. This leaves it extremely vulnerable to Pursuit and common priority moves which is pretty terrible. Also the fact that it's weak to both Fighting and Fire attacks in a Tier where almost every team has 1 of each is also terrible.
3.) SR weakness: for a spinner, this is pretty terrible, especially since SR is so common and pretty easy to set up. This combine with the fact that it will generally be forced to switch out fairly quickly (due to physical attackers and etc) means it'll be taking this damage everytime and you have to waste a turn recovering.
Pros:
1.) Highly specially defensive: Means it can easily switch into most special types and easily spin. It can take special hits without too much fear.
2.) Recovery: It's the only spinner in the tier with reliable recovery. This means as long you play it smart, Toxic and Burns aren't as big of a deal and it can heal damage it takes fairly quickly.
3.) Offense: High speed and a very usable Special Attack stat make it viable enough to use on more offensive/balanced teams, much like Kabutops except Specially rather than physically.
4.) Immunity to spikes: A very large boon to have on a spinner, since unlike all the other spinners on the tier, levitate prevents it from taking status due to toxic spikes and it also isn't taking damage from regular spikes.
Basically, the Cons it has are too strong for it to really be any higher than C, but it's Pros due give it a very useful niche so if your team supports it right, you can be better of using it over some of the other spinners.
Also curious as to why Kabutops isn't ranked. I thought it was before. Did it get accidentally deleted or something? It's another viable rapid spinner that has offensive presence + priority stab.
They don't as far as I know, PsYch071c, doesn't like them
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
Kabutops is easily one of the best rain sweepers in the tier, +2 stone edge with life orb is capable of OHKOing quite a few bulky water resists, though a number only after stealth rocks, including but not limited to shaymin, kingdra, blastoise, and qwilfish after intimidate. Suicune, and slowbro remain narrow 2HKOs, virizion and empoleon are both OHKO'd or a narrow miss of an OHKO by waterfall in the rain, depending on the spread. Aqua jet KOs 252/120 sableye to avoid priority WoW.
Other than that it OHKOs and outspeeds the entire tier as jolly, and up to base 105 + nature choice scarf users as adamant, without issue using waterfall, and has the defenses to stand up to most priority. Because it has the capacity to sweep the entire tier without ludicrous set up, perhaps it is worthy of A even. It does at least 80% to the best defensive water resists in the tier, that's really not asking for all that much in the way of wearing down if you ask me.
Rocks, rain, and a swords dance can clean sweep a lot of teams, lackcing rocks with a bit of wear on key counters a sweep is also very feasible. Failing that, just in the rain offensive presence is not lacking without a boost, and even out of the rain the strength of aqua jet is real.
Other than that it OHKOs and outspeeds the entire tier as jolly, and up to base 105 + nature choice scarf users as adamant, without issue using waterfall, and has the defenses to stand up to most priority. Because it has the capacity to sweep the entire tier without ludicrous set up, perhaps it is worthy of A even. It does at least 80% to the best defensive water resists in the tier, that's really not asking for all that much in the way of wearing down if you ask me.
Rocks, rain, and a swords dance can clean sweep a lot of teams, lackcing rocks with a bit of wear on key counters a sweep is also very feasible. Failing that, just in the rain offensive presence is not lacking without a boost, and even out of the rain the strength of aqua jet is real.
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I wouldn't go quite so far as A-Rank, as the SD + Swift Swim Set is only as devastating as you make out on full rain teams, as Kabutops will usually get KO'd if he attempts to set up both dances, or at least be in LO-suicide range. Fair enough, if rain is up and he can force a switch, he can decimate most teams that haven't got a solid answer to him, however he does require a decent amount of team support to function, thus putting him in the 'offensive niche' category. Just my opinion, you can take it or leave it. :3