The UU Metagame Distinctives of Entry Hazards

[reachzero]

One of the most interesting aspects of the discussion related to the current UU Suspects (Froslass) has been the impact of Spikes on the UU metagame. Spikes are of course nothing new to players of competitive Pokemon, since Spikes are a staple of stall in every tier--they can be put down pretty easily in Standard by such excellent Pokemon as Skarmory and Forretress. However, in the present UU metagame, Spikes are more useful than they have been in Standard; no one has ever even suggested that any OU Spiker should be a Suspect. In UU, five of the top 25 UU Pokemon are immune to Spikes; in Standard, ten of the top 25 OU Pokemon are immune to Spikes. On the whole, UU tends to be more "grounded" than Standard, and as such Spikes appear to make a greater competitive impact. However, no current UU Spiker has the reliable recovery that Skarmory has in Standard--UU Spikers must conserve their health to maximize their contribution. What is the value of Spikes in UU relative to Standard, and how do you manage UU Spikers (not just Froslass....)?

Similarly, Stealth Rock is one of the defining characteristics of 4th generation Pokemon, serving to balance the Standard metagame by keeping such strong Pokemon as Gyarados and Salamence from becoming unmanageable. However, Stealth Rock is generally less significant in UU than it is in OU, since many of the most distinctive UU Pokemon are neutral at worst at Stealth Rock (Venusaur, Milotic, Donphan, Rhyperior....). In fact, whereas weakness to Stealth Rock can mean significantly reduced usage in Standard (such as Yanmega and Weavile), in UU being Stealth Rock weak does not seem to be nearly so great a handicap; key UU Pokemon such as Moltres and Arcanine remain UU despite being weak to Stealth Rock. In fact, four of the five BL Pokemon were banned from UU regardless of their weakness to Stealth Rock: Staraptor, Abomasnow, Crobat and Yanmega. What does this say about the value of Stealth Rock in UU?

Toxic Spikes are a mixed blessing in the UU metagame, useless in certain games yet invaluable in others. Unlike Standard or Ubers, UU has a number of very viable and common grounded Poison-types, notably Venusaur, Nidoking and Nidoqueen, Drapion, Toxicroak, and even the highly underrated Venomoth. These heavily discourage the use of Toxic Spikes in UU, despite the fact that most of these can deploy Toxic Spikes themselves. The lure of Toxic Spikes is substantial, however--the metagame also features prominent bulky Water- and Ground-types that hate facing Toxic Spikes. Are Toxic Spikes useful in UU, and if so, how does one keep them from being absorbed by the ubiquitous grounded Poisons?

Finally, how good and how easy to use is Rapin Spin in the present UU metagame? Are the Spinners ahead of the Ghosts, or vice-versa?

As a short summary, the Pokemon currently allowed in UU that can set up Spikes are Cacturne, Cloyster, Froslass, Glalie, Omastar and Qwilfish.

The Pokemon currently allowed in UU that can use Rapid Spin are Armaldo, Blastoise, Claydol, Cloyster, Delibird, Donphan, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Kabutops, Sandslash and Torkoal.

 

[A.P.]

If you're going to run SpikeStacking in UU, typically, your team will be some variant of stall. Having faced teams numerous times, I think SpikeStacking is very potent and formidable in the hands of a good player.

A good SpikeStacking team in UU usually will have several distinguishable components - a SR user, a Spiker, a Toxic Spiker(optional), two Ghosts, probably a decent defensive core, and if you choose to go with a slightly more offensive approach, a powerful clean-up Pokémon. A Rapid Spinner typically is useful, to protect your own team. If you have space, Wish can work too, but there is a shortage of good Wish Pokémon available in UU.

Stealth Rock, despite all the facts you put up, is vital in UU. If those Pokémon are so dangerous with SR, others in UU, like Moltres, Honchkrow, and Swellow, would be even more without. It's a crucial asset that almost every team should run.

On a good SpikeStacking Team, the best two Pokémon to run are typically Spiritomb and Froslass (you'll want to use the all-out attacker Tomb as your lead, seeing as otherwise it's too vulnerable to set-up). Foresight Hitmontop (and to a lesser extent, Foresight Blastoise, and Odor Sleuth Donphan) is too big of a nemesis to warrant not going down this route. By this token, Froslass is probably the premier Spiker on a SpikeStacking team (Proslass in particular is a good set). Qwilfish is the second best, for its ability to laugh at most Waters, while using both Spikes, and Toxic Spikes. Double Ghost may be a bit much to pass up on, though. IMO, Nidoqueen is another solid option, because of its ability to set up both SR and Toxic Spikes; freeing up other spots on your team. Donphan is another good option.

Other good choices on a SpikeStacking team include things that can take advantage of it - Blastoise can Roar/Spin (Surf/Rest for filler), Arcanine also can Roar, and is a solid defensive presence. Clefable can be used to some success as a Cleric/Healer, while Venusaur can find uses in almost any type of team. Just a theorymon statement, but Glaceon, with its Roar/Heal Bell/Wish, can be another good Stall Pokémon, with decent attack even without investment (Ice Beam).

Finally, the clean-up Pokémon. I haven't faced any SpikeStacking teams that use one, but IMO, Swellow, RP Rhyperior, and Honchkrow are probably among the best. However, most teams will likely have to give up their Double Ghost synergy to fit this in, unless you run something like NP Missy. Again, this is all theorymon, I don't even know if a more offensively inclined SpikeStacking team would actually work.

So my theoretical good bog standard SpikeStacking Stall team:

Spiritomb/Froslass/Nidoqueen/Arcanine/Blastoise/Venusaur

Other options:
Donphan
Qwilfish
Clefable
Glaceon

Beating a SpikeStacking team is just like any other Stall; take out their cornerstone, and exploit the one gap there. Here, though, the first key is to remove the Double Ghost, so you can spin if you have a Spinner. If you can't remove the Ghost, you're most likely screwed between Shuffling/Hazards. Otherwise, you'll just have to try and pound the opposition.

Just my thoughts. Heh, I'm inclined to make a team myself now.

Nice thread, Reach. Should produce good discussion.

 

[Heysup]

I'm sure by now we all know my view on entry hazards, mainly on offensive teams.

I think Pokemon in UU have a much easier time getting Spikes up than in any other tier. I also think that Spikes is far more dangerous (broken, if you will) in UU because of all of the Grounded walls, but most importantly, the inability to spin. Specifically, I think this applies to Froslass.

With Pokemon such as Froslass occupying the lead position, nothing is stopping you from carrying another Ghost that won't overload the rest of your team. For example, Rotom is one of the best Swellow, Gallade, and Honchkrow checks, and it also blocks Rapid Spin. Don't get me started on Froslass being able to block spin itself either ^_^, because I strongly believe it can based on my experiences (and even theory shows it does).

Another thing I think most people completely ignore when addressing the ability to keep spikes on the field are Pokemon I like to call 'anti-spin' Pokemon. 'Anti-Spin' Pokemon are Pokemon such as Gallade, Blaziken, Moltres, Honchkrow etc who absolutely wreck the opponent if they try to take a turn to Rapid Spin. Also, Pokemon such as Venusaur and Jumpluff also help, since they can Sleep the Pokemon trying to Spin, or force them to take Sleep with Pokemon they will need later. These Pokemon function as excellent tools to keep Spikes on the field without even remotely "trying too hard".

That's what I think about Spikes in a nutshell.

Toxic Spikes are...well...lets just say Venusaur is the #1 used Pokemon right now.

Stealth Rock is Stealth Rock. It is a necessary evil to keep Swellow, Moltres, and Honchkrow in check.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Regarding Froslass in particular, I think there a couple of factors about it that differentiate it from other Spikers. First is the ability to both spinblock and spike at the same time. This is relevant because if you had a situation in OU with Foretress and Skarmory on the field at the same time, the Foretress would happily set up its own hazards while spinning away Skarmory's. Now try spinning Froslass' spikes as it lays them down and you start to see a problem emerge. Another point, related to this, is Froslass' ability to directly threaten and force out the most common spinners in UU (Donphan and Claydol). While Rotom-a does threaten Foretress and Starmie, it does so _without_ the ability to set up spikes itself. So basically, once Lass gets some spikes down, if you try to spin them, it'll just come in, force out your spinner, and lay MORE spikes down. All the while your spinner, who lacks reliable recovery, takes increasing hazard damage. And then there's the hail factor. Anyone who's played against a HaxLass in hail can tell you just how easily it can get three layers down and how impotent you usually are to stop it.

Regarding why hazards are so effective in general, I think it has a lot to do with the sheer number of walls and bulky defenders they bring into ko range. Stealth Rock's ability to check several absurdly dangerous threats, like Moltres and Swellow, is apparent. But less apparent is its ability to guarantee those same Pokemon multiple kills they otherwise would not have. Off the top of my head, Moltres gets kills on mixed wall Milotic and Slowking with rocks and some spikes, and Swellow gets kills on defensive Magneton (I hate this fact) and defensive Milotic. That's major, and I think is a big reason that these two Pokemon are seeing such huge spikes in usage. Without easy to set difficult to spin hazards, they just weren't getting the kills they needed to get, and now they are.

 

[ToF]

Froslass isn't even the best spin-blocker in my opinion, nor is it the 'best spiker'. Spikers should be chosen based on team structure and team needs, not simply by slotting one spiker that's used more than others. In my opinion, if you wanted the 'best spiker', Omastar is a better pick than Froslass because it threatens the common Rapid Spinners similarly to Froslass without giving up so much bulk. Froslass's spin-blocking ability isn't even necessary since it can stop most spinners (barring Blastoise) already.

Spinning isn't the easiest thing in UU, at least in the past it wasn't. As people know, I took all precautions to keep my layers of spikes up; from what I see currently, people think Spiritomb, Mismagius, or Froslass are enough to keep spikes up alone. All three are too frail in my opinion to do their job alone regardless of what EV spread's you use, and once they are gone, you basically just lost the game.

Stall adapts to the metagame just like any other team. Expect to see more Tricking ghosts if Offensive teams pack checks to stall like Foresight Hitmontop or other common Foresight spinners.

 

[IronBullet]

Getting down several layers of Spikes, in my opinion, is easier in UU more than in any other tier, and also harder to keep off the field.
This is mainly due to the top Spiker in UU, Froslass, also being able to function as an Spin-Blocker, specifically Prolass, and it's ability to set up hazards without fearing any spinning efforts from the opponent.
The fact that SpikeStacking opens up many potential sweeps simply because it brings into KO range even the most determined walls speaks volumes about how dangerous it is.

Toxic Spikes is, right now, probably the most unreliable entry hazard in UU due to Venusaur being #1 in usage.

Stealth Rock....a necessity in UU, thanks to the birds of terror: Moltres, Honchkrow and Swellow. It keeps these guys in check, but also gives them the ability to defeat pokemon they wouldn't have been able to without hazard support.

Hazards are definitely dangerous in UU, and definitely easier to set up and keep up as well.

 

[FlareBlitz]

ToF, Lass might not be the best spinblocker or the best spiker (although the latter point is arguable) but the fact that it can do BOTH at the same time is what makes it so good.

 

[Synre]

I think the spike situation is fairly unique in DPP UU - I'd be hesitant to compare it to any other game. The pacing in DPP UU, as I'm sure we're all aware, is loads slower than DPP OU. Even with some of our offensive suspects the raw team sweeping, defensive-Pokemon-destroying power just isn't what it is in OU, and as such matches take more turns, have more switches, and thus the impact of entry hazards is quite a bit greater.

I think I'd place the speed of the game somewhere between GSC (which only had one layer of 12.5% Spikes) and ADV (which had only the modern day Spikes), though it varies quite a bit by playstyle, and I think trends more toward the former metagame. The whole voting/suspect process tends to be a lot less lenient on offense Pokemon than defensive ones, and I think already we have a game where the good stall/spike teams are very effective(partially since their opposition usually isn't super prepared for it). The UU Pokemon in this gen probably have the tools to keep us away from GSC style stall, but stall is a lot more effective in this tier than any I've seen in a long time. There are a lot of teams that do really well(on the ladder at least, I guess) by loading up on defensively oriented Pokemon and a spiker and just making the safest move every turn, which is something that is almost impossible in DP's OU this gen with powerhouses like Salamence flying around.

My rambling aside, the above is relevant because no gen of this pacing has ever had so many entry hazards available before - Stealth Rock alone completely redefined OU, and it existing in a slower game, in addition to Spikes are pretty devastating. I'm pretty ambivalent on including Toxic Spikes in the general complaint since they're so easy to remove, but I think how easy it is to remove both Toxic Spikes and to spin the other spikes away can be misleading.

There's a few pretty respectable Rapid Spinners in this tier - I've enjoyed Donphan a lot ever since he's dropped down, and I know a lot of people have had success with Blastoise, Claydol, and Hitmontop, but regardless of which spinner you are using it is not as though you can just waltz on in and spin away against a team that's run by someone competent enough to win games consistently. Most of the good stall teams are running set-ups that make it very difficult to even get a spinner in(especially the two ground types), enough so that you either have to take a big risk to do so, or have to make a series of switches to create a safe situation for your spinner to come in on. This is true even for bringing in your Posion-type to remove Toxic Spikes, since even if you manage to get in and remove the spikes, if you take most or all of your health bar to do it you've lost as much or more than you've gained.

You taking a risk to get your spinner in is a win for the stall team, since one or two little mistakes are all it tends to take for you to get the wrong Pokemon worn down enough that you have little hope of winning if the stall is still healthy, especially since if your enemy has the hazards up you're at least going to be averaging 20% damage (and usually much more than that) for just bringing your spinner in on a switch. Having to switch multiple times to set up an opportunity up for your spinner is even worse, since in addition to wearing your spinner down, you're helping out the opposition by wearing down your other team members as well. It's worth noting, too, that none of the spinners have reliable recovery which makes their responsive role in battle difficult to pull off more than a few times.

Even once you get in, spinning is tricky, since basically every stall team is carrying at least one ghost, often two with Spiritomb or Mismagius helping out spiker Froslass, which are all good Pokemon in this tier in their own right. It's hard to discuss this without throwing too much theorymon in, but like I've mentioned in the other topics, the effects of how the Dragon- and offensive-based OU metagame has trickled down makes the situation really ideal for stall teams here, since the BST of the defensive Pokemon is so much higher than the offensive ones since so many defensive Pokemon that can't hack it in OU. This leads to a metagame where the pacing of the game slows down to a point where the entry hazards have never been stronger in any other metagame or generation, because in addition to the defensive Pokemon helping to overpower the walls, they hit much harder than you'd expect from "walls" in their own right due to just being all around stronger Pokemon, too. Even "defensive" Pokemon like Milotic have base 100 spa, as does Tangrowth and Regirock's attack, for instance. That is, of course, on top of defensive stats that are as high or higher than that of most of the offensive Pokemon in this tier. These juicy stats go a long way into making it even more difficult to switch into defensive teams repeatedly amongst entry hazards, and makes the defensive teams that much more threatening in the early stages of the battle as they set up.

Even seeing more offensively oriented teams running Spikes is pretty interesting with the Froslass leads getting a couple lairs down pretty consistently, with the team then applying enough pressure to make it difficult to fit in a spin, though I'd have a hard time creating an objective complaint on that end. Interesting how versatile the Froslass use has gotten, though. I kind of intentionally didn't say too much about any of the individual spikers since the landscape could change dramatically with the upcoming vote, but I think Froslass has in practice been far and away the best, as much as some other spikers have advantages "in theory."

 

[Stagnant]

More and more Spike stacking teams every day. I've seen quite a few more double-ghost strategies as well. Or perhaps they've been more noticeable since I'm currently using a Pursuit'r. Anyways, I've came to the conclusion that using a Rapid Spinner is futile if you don't have a Pursuit user to clean up the trash (the ghosties).

 

[Scoopapa]

Spinning is definitely more difficult recently than it used to be. I run a team that relies heavily on spinning, and it's had more difficulty recently than it's ever had before. Froslass certainly makes things difficult, but the fact that Froslass makes Spikes so easy to get down is also making many people use an additional spin blocker.