Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

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Nominating Heracross for C-Rank
D-Rank? Really?
Heracross has a lot of potential in OU: it's two STABs give it excellent coverage, and Moxie/Guts means that Heracross hits hard. Heracross also gets any coverage necessary and can moxieball any team unprepared for it.
It can also run a variety of sets, from Guts All Attacker to Sub+3 Atk Moxie, so it has versatility too.
This I believe warrants C-Rank : "Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks."
 
Nominating Heracross for C-Rank
D-Rank? Really?
Heracross has a lot of potential in OU: it's two STABs give it excellent coverage, and Moxie/Guts means that Heracross hits hard. Heracross also gets any coverage necessary and can moxieball any team unprepared for it.
It can also run a variety of sets, from Guts All Attacker to Sub+3 Atk Moxie, so it has versatility too.
This I believe warrants C-Rank : "Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks."
Seconded. Two awesome base-120 STABs coming off of 125 Attack is seriously no joke. Banded Heracross is one heck of a wallbreaker, Scarfed Hera is awesome late-game with Moxie as well as a nasty revenge killer, and Substitute+3 attacks eases prediction and still hits hard with its good coverage. Also, since its abilities are not obvious upon switching in, the opponent could end up trying to burn what he thinks is MoxieCross and get hit in the face with a Guts-boosted 120 BP STAB. It even has fairly decent defenses for an offensive 'mon, though you don't want to use it as a tank or anything like that.

That being said, its speed really, REALLY hurts it. This is possibly the ONLY thing keeping it out of the top tiers of OU, because without a Scarf, it's not outspeeding anything, and it's too easy to switch in a Pokemon on a Choice-locked move, especially because Bug- and Fighting-type STABs have such good super effective coverage that many teams prepare by carrying defensive checks to them. Also, its typing is pretty bad defensively in OU because of powerful Psychic-types running around and nearly everything having Fire-type coverage, as well as its glaring 4x weakness to Flying (which isn't all that common, but it means that Skarmory completely mauls Heracross both defensively and offensively even when minimally invested in Attack).

Also, I love the term "MoxieBall."
 
Heracross really has a tough time to differentiate itself from the other fighting types in OU, it seems like the definition of a D-Rank to me..
Remember C-rank was recently cleaned up and I don't want to see it turn into a huge mess again, its only real noticeable niche is megahorn and being a guts pokemon that resists Breloom's dualstab.
It's too slow to abuse moxie very well.
 

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Heracross really has a tough time to differentiate itself from the other fighting types in OU, it seems like the definition of a D-Rank to me..
Remember C-rank was recently cleaned up and I don't want to see it turn into a huge mess again, its only real noticeable niche is megahorn and being a guts pokemon that resists Breloom's dualstab.
It's too slow to abuse moxie very well.
I will actually back Heracross for C rank. Heracross's distinction is being a Fighting type that can break through a bulky psychic type. Cresselia (popularized in sun), Reuniclus, and to lesser extents Latias and Starmie. What's most notable about this ability is that Heracross wipes the floor with Celebi-- which is often relied on to beat Keldeo and check Terrakion. The fact that Landorus-T stomps Hera flat and Jelli can most wall it is an issue-- but we're talking about C rank. Keldeo + Hera can beat every single fighting check besides Jelli, who is a weaker check to both of them.
 
Requesting move of Durant up to C tier. Durant can barely outpace the Swords of Justice and proceed to KO them. Durant also has enough speed to utilize a Choice Scarf effectively. And if Hustle's accuracy drop is of concern, Durant can run a Hone Claws+3 attacks set. Even though its movepool is sort of bare, it has enough coverage with Superpower and Rock Slide. Here are some calcs against some of the premier physical walls:
  • 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 129-152 (44.17 - 52.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44.95 - 53.21%) -- 92.58% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 308-364 (87.5 - 103.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Zapdos: 264-312 (68.92 - 81.46%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 244 HP / 248+ Def Gliscor: 160-190 (45.45 - 53.97%) -- 65.23% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 168-198 (40 - 47.14%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes
  • 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Superpower vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Jirachi: 189-223 (46.78 - 55.19%) -- 74.22% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Thunder Fang vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 254-300 (63.02 - 74.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Although Deoxys-D is in Ubers, this calc shows the power of Durant's CB set:
  • 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 270-318 (88.81 - 104.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Durant is walled by most Jellicent unless it carries the rare ThunderFang, and Jellicent can proceed to burn Durant with Scald. However, Durant is truly an underestimated threat, and that's why I would like to see it move up to C tier. (Was this good?)

Oh yeah. I also support the move of Heracross up to C. It can easily mess with Celebi and Lati@s with it's stupidly powerful STAB Megahorn and demolish Steel-types like Ferrothorn with CC.
 
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Requesting move of Durant up to C tier.
I think even though Durant looks good on paper, it's high-risk vs. high-reward. It's fast, but just barely not fast enough. If you use a Scarf, it's easy to bring in something that resists it and forces it out. With a Band, it's more powerful but more things (Lati@s, Starmie, Gengar, or anything scarfed) can easily revenge kill it or force it out. It takes special hits like tissue paper. And of course, there's 80% accuracy on everything, which is alleviated by Hone Claws, but good luck setting that up with said Special Defense. It's not necessarily a bad Pokemon, but the fact that the most common Pokemon in OU can easily check or counter it is not kind to it, and by trying to compensate for one of its weaknesses (Speed that falls one short of the coveted 110 mark, horrendous Special Defense, 80% accuracy on all moves) it opens up another hole that your opponent can easily exploit.
 
I think even though Durant looks good on paper, it's high-risk vs. high-reward. It's fast, but just barely not fast enough. If you use a Scarf, it's easy to bring in something that resists it and forces it out. With a Band, it's more powerful but more things (Lati@s, Starmie, Gengar, or anything scarfed) can easily revenge kill it or force it out. It takes special hits like tissue paper. And of course, there's 80% accuracy on everything, which is alleviated by Hone Claws, but good luck setting that up with said Special Defense. It's not necessarily a bad Pokemon, but the fact that the most common Pokemon in OU can easily check or counter it is not kind to it, and by trying to compensate for one of its weaknesses (Speed that falls one short of the coveted 110 mark, horrendous Special Defense, 80% accuracy on all moves) it opens up another hole that your opponent can easily exploit.
Yeah. What you said is true. It is very flimsy on the special side, and some common Pokes wall it, but with some team support, it can sweep like a truck. For example,
  • -1 252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 189-223 (49.6 - 58.53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I really think the high risk is worth it. After all, OHKOing Max HP Max Defense Bold Ferrothorn is no small feat. So Durant is not C tier, it is C- tier.
 
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Has anyone played with Physical Sweeper Greninja? I figured a move involving Fling/Acrobatics/U-Turn/Something for coverge or annoyance like waterfall could be interesting.
 
Nominating Heracross for C-Rank
D-Rank? Really?
Heracross has a lot of potential in OU: it's two STABs give it excellent coverage, and Moxie/Guts means that Heracross hits hard. Heracross also gets any coverage necessary and can moxieball any team unprepared for it.
It can also run a variety of sets, from Guts All Attacker to Sub+3 Atk Moxie, so it has versatility too.
This I believe warrants C-Rank : "Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks."
I agree with this. It is actually a very viable moxie scarfer. (Is outclassed in this role by mence) but it's guts set can work too, as well as its SD set. That and it's my favourite pokemon, so I'm a little biased but I do agree with you.
 
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Alright, with the release of the 6th generation, I think its time we discuss whether our current ranking are suited for our "final rankings". Personally, I am satisfied with our current rankings, but I believe that a few changes should be made.

First off, I think that Zapdos and Bronzong need to be dropped down to C-tier. In the previous BW2 metagames, these Pokemon were amazing on stall and balanced teams due to their ability to counter the two major threats at the time (Landorus-I and Tornadus-T), making their position in Mid B-Rank understandable. In the current metagame, however, these two Pokemon are extremely niche in OU tier, countering a rather small number of threats. Obviously these Pokemon are still relevant in the metagame to check these threats, but Zapdos and Bronzong's overall lack of utility compared to other Pokemon (Rotom-W, Jirachi, etc.) makes me believe that these two Pokemon should ultimately dropped down to C-Rank.

Next, I believe Salamence should be dropped down to High B-Rank. Obviously Salamence is still very good in the tier, but in the current metagame, I am more inclined to rank it as a High B-Rank Pokemon due to several flaws. Its SR and priority weaknesses are two major things holding it back, especially considering that Salamence has to switch in and out constantly with its most popular set (Choice Scarf) unless it uses Outrage. Its two viable sets also suffer from certain flaws that limit its overall viability. The DD set can utilize the switches that CS forces to setup DDs and sweep, but suffers from being revenge killed very easily by opposing Choice Scarf users (Chomp, Terrakion, Keldeo) and being overall inferior to those of Dragonite. The CS set on the other hand, makes for a fantastic late game sweeper, but has to rely on Outrage to get that first boost, making it vulnerable to Steel-types and opposing Scarfers and is generally inferior to other Choice Scarf users in terms of revenge killing. Mixed sets are irrelevant in the current metagame, as it is inferior to many other more relevant mixed attackers (Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, Keldeo).

Finally I believe that Moltres should be upgraded to Mid B-Rank. From my experience, Moltres is the best Hurricane spammer in OU due to several factors. Moltres's access to Agility make it a formidable sweeper and it can get the first Agility up due to its typing, giving it resistances to key attacking types such as Bug, Steel, Fire, Fighting, and an immunity to Ground. That very same typing also gives it a resistance to the two most common priority moves it the OU Metagame: Mach Punch and Bullet Punch, as well as an Ice Shard neutrality. Moltres also has that STAB Fire Blast to eleminate common Steel-types that other Hurricane Spammers have trouble with, most notable Ferrothorn and Jirachi, as well as function is other weather weathers. Moltres definitely has some terrible flaws, such as being weak to SR, having low Speed before an Agility, and weaknesses to common attacking types, but its positives make it a Mid B-Rank Pokemon.

PK Gaming What are your thoughts on these nominations for our final rankings?
 

PK Gaming

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Don't worry, i'm definitely considering your changes in the viability thread. They're all valid suggestions, I just want to be 100% sure.
 
Nominating Scolipede for C- or D-Rank. A base 112 Speed suits the job of a speedy spiker, and it isn't outclassed by Accelgor due to Toxic Spikes. Espeon is put under pressure because of STAB Megahorn. On hyper offensive teams, it can also run a Swords Dance set to sweep once faster threats have been removed. T-spikes don't affect it and are destroyed, making it easier for other sweepers to do their jobs. It can even surprise some of its checks with a SubSalac set, especially if dual screens + Memento support is being used.
 
Nominating Scolipede for C- or D-Rank. A base 112 Speed suits the job of a speedy spiker, and it isn't outclassed by Accelgor due to Toxic Spikes. Espeon is put under pressure because of STAB Megahorn. On hyper offensive teams, it can also run a Swords Dance set to sweep once faster threats have been removed. T-spikes don't affect it and are destroyed, making it easier for other sweepers to do their jobs. It can even surprise some of its checks with a SubSalac set, especially if dual screens + Memento support is being used.
how is scolipede not outclassed by accelgor

Scolipede has low bulk so it usually won't be able to set up two layers of toxic spikes, forry and tentacruel can do that job better. Also remember that Starmie outspeeds it unless Scolipede carries a Choice Scarf for some reason, ohkoes it with Psyshock and then spins. Accelgor can just shit over Starmie with Bug Buzz since it's much, much faster. Espeon can be handled by Accelgor as well. And let's not forget about Final Gambit.

The SD set can't really find opportunities to set up thanks to its crap typing and bulk, and 90 base attack isn't that great either. The SubSalac set has massive coverage problems.
 
Looked through S and A ranks and find that that's where the vast majority of the pokes that top players I've played against use, so feel it really reflects the metagame well in that way.

Only one that gets a bit of a puzzled look from me is Gengar. Its especially frail defenses lead to a lot of 2HKOs from neutral coverage, there is a more solid defensive spinblocking option in Jellicent for stall, and plenty of more effective and more powerful special sweepers. For these reasons its hard to use Gengar in many teams, and I don't really face much trouble when against him due to the aforementioned lackluster power and frailty. Its a poke with a neat set of immunities and a well deserved reputation in previous gens, but I'm not sure if he has had a great influence in BW OU. Nominate to drop it into B rank.
 

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Time for one final update.

Update
Haxorus B ==> B-
Heracross D ==> C
Moltres C ==> B-

Haxorus: Haxorus is unquestionably a B- rank Pokemon.
heracross: Heracross though, I tossed the idea around of using Heracross in OU to a couple of tournament players. While the majority of them saw it as a gimmick, most of them would agree that it's a gimmick that can do some damage with Moxie.
Moltres: It's probably one of the hardest Pokemon to use in OU, but the payoff for using it can be huge. It's actually fairly nasty Pokemon to face on rain teams.

In regards to the Pokemon I didn't change
Zapdos & Bronzong: The common sentiment was that while both of these Pokemon lost their primary niche when Tornadus-T got banned, they were still capable of functioning in OU as decent support Pokemon. They're unique in that while they play similarly to several Pokemon, nothing outright outclasses them, hence the reason why they're still B-rank.
Salamence: I don't think I could justify dropping Salamence. While it's true that most of its sets suck, the Scarf set is a threat that you should always keep in the back of your mind, especially on teams that stack Dragon-types. Bottom line, I couldn't get anybody to sign on moving this down.

So overall, I didn't make any significant changes. Some would argue that it doesn't change enough and that's certainly a valid claim. But I would argue that "constantly" changing a tier list does more harm than good. I think overall, we hit our mark in regards to building an accurate tier list for BW OU. I'll be the first to admit that this tier isn't perfect, but I think the margin of error is more than acceptable.

Feel free to keep posting on this thread, but I won't be updating this list in the near future.

Au revoir!
 
#1:

Nominating Heatran for A+ rank

"yes but heatran's main stab is weakened by rain"
Yeah and Keldeo's main stab is weakened by sun so by that logic it should also be A rank

Heatran has an excellent base 130 special attack and Steel-typing which makes it a great counter to all those entry hazard users and annoyers such as Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Forretress etc and has an amazing weather trapper set to lure in Politoed and shit all over it, making it an amazing weapon for sun teams. That steel-typing, cominbed with its great defenses could also allow it to run a specially defensive set. It's much better than crap like Venusaur and Gyarados, pokes who can't work outside of their preferred weather.

#2:

Jirachi should be A+ rank

I really don't think it deserves s rank tbh. It's just not powerful enough to get past its counters (air balloon heatran, hippowdon, slowbro...), and on paper it's versatile, but it really could only be labeled as a "jack of all trades, master of none" pokemon. Jirachi is a pokemon that is overprepared for, that's why it's S rank. Politoed and Tyranitar have the advantage of bringing weather on the field, while Keldeo has an amazing base 129 special attack, SECRET SWORD, and an excellent typing.
 
I'd be fine with Jirachi remaining S rank. You have to consider its versatility. I'd say its easily the most versatile mon, and all its sets are all pretty threatening. What it does lack in, however, is a single large stat. 100 across the board is good, but offensively I sometimes find it to lack what I want of it. This isn't much of a big factor to moving it down, however, since it's typing is still solid and has a pretty good speed I'd like to keepit at the top. The set that I'd personally find the most effective is scarf, due to a fast u-turn and solid coverage (flinchhaxlol). It certainly is a "master of none" when it comes down to it, but damn is it good at what you want it to do. The only pokemon in S rank with no real "counters" I'd say is Keldeo, as the other two are due in large part to weather, which secures there spot. Since Jirachi is the only mon I find to be close as standalone solid as Keldeo, IMO Jirachi stays S.
 
So what's the deal with Politoed being S-rank? I can't find it in the thread
Tornadus-T, technically, should be A-tier since it requires heavy rain support. But the thing is, once there is rain (and Politoed being in S-tier says a lot), T^2 is easily S-tier/suspect. Especially with Heatran builds now diverging from defensive sets to more offensive ones, as well as Jirachi being seen a lot less since Chompie's back. So, your two solid checks are now gone.

Keldeo in my mind should be borderline between A and B. It's power in rain + fighting STAB coverage is undeniable, but Hydro Pump being 80% accurate is very iffy. WIthout rain, it's like a SpA Terrakion with an 80% STAB move...or Surf. With Keldeo's lackluster defenses, a miss can be very costly.

Deoxys-D perhaps for S-tier (but by no means broken).

Tyranitar...should be B tier with all them fighting coverage moves running around like syphilis.
Nah, fighting attacks used to destroy Tyranitar, especially special attack fighting moves, but with a mega evolution or assault vest, it can take even a focus blast from the Pokemon that it threatens that would otherwise OHKO it without Chople Berry.
 
So what's the deal with Politoed being S-rank? I can't find it in the thread

Nah, fighting attacks used to destroy Tyranitar, especially special attack fighting moves, but with a mega evolution or assault vest, it can take even a focus blast from the Pokemon that it threatens that would otherwise OHKO it without Chople Berry.
This is a Black and White disscussion thread. Assault Vest and Mega Evolutions do not exist currently.
 

HeIIraiser

tough like igglybuff
Not sure if this is still open to changes, but I wanted to share some thoughts about Garchomp:

Garchomp: A+ Rank ---> S Rank

Garchomp is a fantastic pokémon in BW OU. Having awesome stats, excellent speed, many possible movesets (SD 3atks, SR 3atks, SR SD 2atks, SR Dragon Tail, Sub SD, Choiced), many possible items (Yache Berry, Rocky Helmet, Focus Sash, Salac Berry, Dragon Gem, Life Orb, Leftovers, Choice Band, Choice Scarf), a very good ability (Rough Skin) and being one of the most reliable (if not the most reliable) Stealth Rock users, I believe Garchomp should move to the S Rank.

Garchomp fits in many playstyles in the current BW OU metagame:

*Rain Offense 1 (Politoed, Starmie, Latios, Garchomp, Ferrothorn, Gyarados)
*Rain Offense 2 (Politoed, Starmie, Keldeo, Garchomp, Thundurus-T, Ferrothorn)
*Sandstorm Offense 1 (Tyranitar, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Latios, Jirachi/Ferrothorn)
*Sandstorm Offense 2 (Tyranitar, Garchomp, Dragonite, Conkeldurr, Starmie, Ferrothorn)
*Sandstorm Balanced (Tyranitar, Garchomp, Gengar, Skarmory, Reuniclus, Gastrodon)
*Hyper Offense 1 (Azelf, Garchomp, Terrakion, Scizor, Salamence, Dragonite)
*Hyper Offense 2 (Breloom, Garchomp, Starmie, Scizor, Dragonite, Volcarona)
*Hyper Offense 3 (Froslass, Garchomp, Breloom, Scizor, Keldeo, Alalazam)
*DragMag HO (Garchomp, Dragonite, Magnezone, Jirachi, Latios, Kyurem-B)
*Hail Balanced (Abomasnow, Starmie, Reuniclus, Garchomp, Heatran, Reuniclus)

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Now let's take a look on the statistics (top10) of two high level tournaments where the current BW OU tier was used: Smogon World Cup (SWC) and Smogon Premier League (SPL):

Smogon World Cup:



Garchomp is #2 in usage and is the pokémon with the best win rate in the top5.
Garchomp has more usage than Tyranitar, Keldeo and Politoed, all rank S Pokémon.
Garchomp has more win rate than Jirachi, Tyranitar, Keldeo and Politoed, all rank S Pokémon.


Smogon Premier League:



Garchomp is #4 in usage and is the pokémon with the best win rate in the top5.
Garchomp has more usage than Keldeo and Politoed, all rank S Pokémon.
Garchomp has more win rate than Jirachi, Tyranitar, Keldeo and Politoed, all rank S Pokémon.

I would also like to point out July's statistics for 1760 BW OU:


Here we can see that Garchomp is #2 in usage.

This is not a coincidence. Garchomp is an amazing pokémon in BW OU, fitting many kinds of teams and always getting its job done.

Garchomp doesn't even need to run +Speed nature to get it's job done, since +Speed is only useful to Speed Tie another Garchomp (Garchomp x Garchomp is very rare in BW OU) and outspeed the rares Modest Keldeo and Nature +Speed Kyurem-B, Kyurem, Thundurus-T, Haxorus, Jirachi and Hydreigon.

Now let's take a look in some calcs:

From Garchomp:

+1 252 Atk Dragon Gem Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 100+ Def Landorus-T: 391-462 (102.35 - 120.94%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Landorus-T switching in the Swords Dance)

+1 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 100 Def Landorus-T in rain: 432-510 (113.08 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Landorus-T switching in the Swords Dance during rain)

+2 252 Atk Dragon Gem Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Hippowdon: 391-462 (93.09 - 110%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (Hippowdon switching in the Swords Dance)

+2 252+ Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 140+ Def Ferrothorn: 231-273 (65.62 - 77.55%)

252+ Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 360-426 (89.1 - 105.44%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO (classic spdef Jirachi)

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 237-279 (90.45 - 106.48%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (standard lead Breloom)

----------------------------

Against Garchomp:

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 257-304 (71.78 - 84.91%)

252 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 290-343 (81 - 95.81%)

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 292-344 (81.56 - 96.08%)

0 SpA Landorus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 244-288 (68.15 - 80.44%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite ExtremeSpeed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 153-181 (42.73 - 50.55%)


Garchomp is an amazing Stall Breaker.
This is a game I had against Harsha in World Cup r1: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-13939
Getting a Swords Dance there was key for my win, since it killed Forretress and weakened Hippowdon.

My World Cup game against Bad Ass, where Garchomp destroyed Landorus-T: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-13998

My SPL game against Marth, where Garchomp with a different moveset destroyed Landorus-T: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-1533


Nevertheless, Garchomp is also very good against offense, as you can see in my SPL game against MarceloDK: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-1038
It can be used both as early game SR user (like MarceloDK did in this game) and late game sweeper (like I did in this game).
Garchomp can also be very durable during the match, putting pressure the whole game.

As a bonus, Garchomp also beats 1v1 the majority Jirachi movesets, which is considered to be the best BW OU pokémon.
To finish my analysis, I would also want to point out that Garchomp is way better than Keldeo in the current BW OU metagame, so it's unfair for Keldeo to be in S rank while Garchomp is not.
While bringing one or more Keldeo checks (Latios, Latias, Starmie, Rotom-W, Celebi, Tentacruel, Venusaur, Scarf Gothitelle, Toxicroak) or counters (Jellicent, Amoonguss, Slowbro, Slowking) to any important BW OU match is a must, Garchomp can beat some of its checks (Landorus-T, Gliscor, Hippowdon) and counters (Skarmory loses to Fire Blast variants), being able to get a kill in most matches and easily putting Stealth Rock on the field when needed.

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tl;dr: Garchomp should go up to S rank.

 
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Definitely throwing support behind the above nomination. Not much I can really add (that was a good post and a great explanation), but I do want to bring up something Chou Toshio posted back in that old "Top 10 Titans of the 5th Gen OU Metagame" thread:

I just want to point out that "staple GOOD Pokemon" such as Garchomp, Terrakion, Keldeo, Genosect, Darkrai, and Landorus-I (pre-ban) have a major impact on the game, even if it's not often at the forefront of people's mind (I'd say Jirachi also kind of fits this bill starting in BW2). Pokemon that really, have it all-- typing, stats, ability, powerful/good moves, and good abilities. All they lack is some stat, some function, some capability or quality that breaks the game-- keeps them from being an Excadrill, Deo-S, Shaymin-S or Swift Swim Kingdra (Garchomp's SS sets were found to eventually have had this quality). Often though, these Pokemon are much more independent (of need for support), and perform more consistently than their more broken counterparts, who often rely on weather or some other condition or luck to show their truly broken colors. This consistency of performance, this reliability, is what makes "staple Pokemon" so important to the metagame-- SHAPING the metagame.

A set-up Blaziken, Venusaur, Kingdra, Gyarados, or Tornadus-T may be more devastating. The support from a Darkrai sleep or a Deo-S may have the potential to break the opposing team in half-- and you might be 6-0'd by Shaymin-S should it get lucky. Bringing a Dugtrio might let you kill many a Ninetales, win many a weather war, and pull off many a win. But, there is ALWAYS a risk to building too heavily on a strategy, and relying too heavily on risky and "abusive" strategies-- because you worry if your high risk members can consistently out compete and out perform Pokemon that are FUNDAMENTALLY good-- staple Pokemon. These Staple Pokes, that almost always perform consistently; always forcing you to weigh the risk.

No matter the era, no matter the metagame-- every time you put a Kyurem-B, Venusaur, or Excadrill on your team you have to ask yourself, "why am I using this over [Garchomp, Terrakion, Keldeo, Genosect, Lando-I, etc.]". Even when you KNOW Excadrill's Speed decides many a game, there's that nagging voice in the back wanting to hedge bets, wanting to choose the much less risky, much more independent Garchomp. At the very least, you try to include a number of Staples alongside high risk performers-- to support, and hedge bets. It's in this way that Staple Pokemon shape the metagame, putting massive influence despite not being its most obvious element (like weather or hazards).

Consistently performing Staple Pokemon shape the metagame-- because they are the standard to which ALL OTHER Pokemon must be judged. You can say that Staple Pokemon define the metagame by drawing the base line that judges whether other Pokemon are good or not-- whether they deserve use in OU or not. Of these Staples,Genosect is the absolute best-- the most powerful, the most consistent. But... not the most influential.

Out of these, I'd have to say the most influential is Garchomp. Really, Garchomp is the first of its kind to even exist-- the first Pokemon to have such a flawless typing, movepool, and stat spread that you constantly ask yourself why you're NOT using it. Sure, in BW all these others came to being as well-- but Garchomp was also the standard to which ALL OF THEM were judged. Is Terrakion's Stone Edge strong enough, do its attacks hit hard enough, is that base 6 Speed important enough to excuse its extra weaknesses (and reliance on Stone-miss) compared to Garchomp? Is rain's boost and mixed attacking good enough to excuse the hole in Keldeo's STAB coverage compared to Garchomp? Is Genosect's versatile movepool and STAB U-Turn enough to excuse the poor Speed in a Speed metagame and Choice Scarf competition that was DEFINED by Garchomp.

Even Pokemon like Excadrill and Deo-S found themselves on the wrong side of broken... in large part because they could too easily out speed CS Garchomp.

Staple Pokemon define the meta-- they have a profound impact on its shape. Out of these, none has shaped the meta, and shaped people's expectations-- even shaping the way we judge other staple Pokemon-- more than Garchomp.

If we're talking about "influence", I think enough can be said here. Garchomp is the gear at the center of the OU wheel, the "mark zero" of Pokemon power rankings in OU. Pokemon that are obviously weaker than it are almost always decidedly OU-- not broken. Pokemon that are obviously better than it find themselves under severe scrutiny-- even when they are not broken (see: Keldeo). Pokemon that are weaker/less consistent than it must have some capability that makes them more dangerous under the right conditions (see: Dragonite, Volcarona, Gyarados). Even defensive Pokemon have to be at least as bulky as Garchomp, or have more resistances, in order to truly be a good OU wall. It is the Pokemon by which all other Pokemon are judged. Even banned it had this position, and its importance is clear in our effort to bring it back.

By having those incredible stats, incredible typing, incredible movepool-- but STILL not being "broken", Garchomp has become a central cog of the metagame that shapes our expectations. As a central cog, Garchomp really pushes the envelope on OU's power standard. Without Garchomp as that standard-- let's just imagine if a Pokemon like Gyarados was the standard instead-- I think we'd be looking at the formation of an overall much weaker OU.

Inversely, I guess it was made pretty clear that people didn't want a metagame where Genosect was the central cog to which others would be judged.

As a staple, Garchomp has done so much, and influenced us so much, in building the OU we have today.
The big thing I want to emphasize here is the fact that Garchomp has generally been one of the most consistently great Pokemon to ever exist in BW OU. In fact, it's virtually flawless. Sometimes I sit and wonder how Garchomp's BST isn't higher than 600. Somehow Game Freak managed to create a Pokemon with great physical power, enough special power to get the job done (i.e. nailing Skarmory and friends with Fire Blast), great bulk that puts even some defensive Pokemon to shame, and a solid speed stat with that little extra that lets it beat things like Thundurus-T and Jirachi, and all with just 600 base stat points. It has a great movepool including strong STABs with excellent neutral coverage, plenty of coverage moves for specific checks, Stealth Rock, Dragon Tail, etc. Its typing is very useful both offensively and defensively, and it even has a cool ability in Rough Skin as well. Honestly, what real weak points does Garchomp even have? Even as far as typing weaknesses go, it only has two to worry about, which is pretty awesome. Even then, Garchomp is more than capable of using type resist berries to lure in Pokemon that rely on moves of those types to dispatch of Garchomp and take them down. The only real "problem" with Garchomp is that sometimes it may wish that it had a little more speed here or a little more power there, but it still has more than enough of both to make it one of the top offensive Pokemon out there. Then there's the fact that, as yan[sogeking] mentioned, Garchomp has exceptional versatility regarding the viable sets it can run, and it fits on a wide variety of playstyles. There are just so many teams where you can fit a Garchomp somewhere with some set and it will succeed, which has led to its remarkable tournament success (which, again, yan[sogeking] has done a great job of analyzing). Due to its versatility (both in number of viable sets and in the ease it has fitting onto a variety of teams), its near flawless nature, and the way that it has shaped the metagame and succeeded in tournament play, I want to agree that Garchomp be raised to S-Rank.
 
Damn, that garchomp post was superb, backing that sheit all the way.

Also nominating Mamoswine for A+.

Mamo is so damn good in the current meta, where dragons run rampant, and stuff like Breloom and belebi are amazing.

It's also a suberb SR Setter, and Icicle Crash allows it to BS other common setters.

It's just all around Great.
 
Garchomp for S Rank

This may sound like bandwagon ing but I agree. I got into battling around the time BW2 came out and I just wanna say Garchomp is one of my favorite competitive mons. Amazing typing, movepool, stats give it just enough bulk to set up SR, enough power to muscle through Landorus-T and Skarmory, and enough speed to outpace Jirachi, probably the best mon in BW2. The options it has are as said before, near limitless: SD w Life Orb and 3 Attacks to sweep, SR and Rocky Helmet to punish U-Turners, Dragon Tail+SR to rack up damage, Choice Scarf to outrun stuff like Keldeo and the Lati twins, Choice Band for power.....he can do anything, he's almost as versatile as Tyranitar (and that's saying something). Garchomp belongs in S rank, seriously.
 
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