Resource SWSH LC Viability Rankings

[PlayerPier2]

Hello! From what I've seen and read, this might be a very unpopular opinion, but I think Growlithe deserves to be at least in the D tier.

So far, I've been trying to use it in my team with this set:

Growlithe (F) @ Berry Juice/Expert Belt
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 196 Atk / 116 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flame Charge
- Wild Charge
- Crunch/Psychic Fangs
- Substitute/Morning Sun

The other Pokémons in my team are Mienfoo, Koffing, Staryu, Ferroseed and Natu.

Albeit inconsistent and weak to super-effective attacks, Growlithe has actually helped me win a bunch of games: obviously, Flame Charge can beat opponents such as Ferroseed, Grookey, Magnemite and Sandshrew, but also help the "fire dog" get a useful speed advantage against faster foes. Moreover, this move can be boosted by Flash Fire if you can time a substitution well enough.

Wild Charge is pretty good to defeat Carvanha (if you manage to hit it before a Protect) and Tentacool, whereas Crunch can be useful to (at least) keep the powerful Abra and Frillish in check. I suppose Psychic Fangs could be good against Mienfoo, but honestly I've replaced it pretty soon.

I admit Substitute might be the weakest move of the set, as it usually doesn't bring much help in keeping Growlithe healthy enough, so I'm figuring out if Morning Sun can be a better alternative.

Also, as said before, Growlithe is very weak to super-effective moves, such as Ponyta's High Horsepower and even things like Flip Turn (maybe an Eviolite can help it out?). However, with the right set-up, it might still be a nice alternative to Ponyta itself and Magby.

What do you all think about it?

Also, this is my first post ever on the forum, so hopefully I've done everything right.

 

[Kazeiyuu]

Alright, nominating Ponyta to A (if not A+).

This thing is a near perfect Pokemon, and I don't get why it is so low
It's an insane breaker, with an excellent speed tier (and the highest base stat in LC btw) and near perfect coverage.
Flare Blitz tears through anything that doesn't resist it, and those same resist are almost always 2HKO by one of Ponyta's coverage. The only exceptions being Trace Porygon if you're running Flash Fire Ponyta, Berry Juice Onix (only one time if you get the wrong anticipation) or Thick Fat Munchlax, the two latter being very rare due to the ubiquity of Water, Grass and Fighting Types in the tier.
It is also by no mean frail, and can handle some hit, especially if you manage to get a Flame Body burn, or ar running Eviolite.
Also, being a Fire type that isn't revenge killed by almost all Diglett is just that good, at +1, Ponyta is very threatening and difficult to handle.
You can still play around it though, but still, it's a huge threat.
By the way, its only real downside is its stealth rock weakness, but is isn't even that much of an issue considering how often Ponyta runs Berry Juice.
So, yeah, definitely not a A- tier Pokemon in my opinion, and I'll also support any tiering action that is related to Ponyta.

 

[Troubadour1]

Hello! From what I've seen and read, this might be a very unpopular opinion, but I think Growlithe deserves to be at least in the D tier.

So far, I've been trying to use it in my team with this set:

Growlithe (F) @ Berry Juice/Expert Belt
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 196 Atk / 116 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flame Charge
- Wild Charge
- Crunch/Psychic Fangs
- Substitute/Morning Sun

The other Pokémons in my team are Mienfoo, Koffing, Staryu, Ferroseed and Natu.

Albeit inconsistent and weak to super-effective attacks, Growlithe has actually helped me win a bunch of games: obviously, Flame Charge can beat opponents such as Ferroseed, Grookey, Magnemite and Sandshrew, but also help the "fire dog" get a useful speed advantage against faster foes. Moreover, this move can be boosted by Flash Fire if you can time a substitution well enough.

Wild Charge is pretty good to defeat Carvanha (if you manage to hit it before a Protect) and Tentacool, whereas Crunch can be useful to (at least) keep the powerful Abra and Frillish in check. I suppose Psychic Fangs could be good against Mienfoo, but honestly I've replaced it pretty soon.

I admit Substitute might be the weakest move of the set, as it usually doesn't bring much help in keeping Growlithe healthy enough, so I'm figuring out if Morning Sun can be a better alternative.

Also, as said before, Growlithe is very weak to super-effective moves, such as Ponyta's High Horsepower and even things like Flip Turn (maybe an Eviolite can help it out?). However, with the right set-up, it might still be a nice alternative to Ponyta itself and Magby.

What do you all think about it?

Also, this is my first post ever on the forum, so hopefully I've done everything right.

I feel like Growlithe isn't the worst Pokemon to use per se. It's just outclassed. Offensively, Ponyta has the same type and ability and comes with Flare Blitz, Flame Charge, Wild Charge, and Morning Sun, just like Growlithe. However, Ponyta also comes with three key additions: better coverage, higher attack, and higher speed. Defensively, Larvesta does a better job of checking physical threats like Mienfoo and Pawniard than Intimidate Growlithe due to it's typing, ability, and U-turn.

First, let's talk about offensive Growlithe, starting with its moves. Growlithe has a few coverage moves that Ponyta lacks, such Crunch, Psychic Fangs, and Close Combat. However, none of these end up helping it too much besides Close Combat. Using Crunch, this Growlithe set only has a 0.4% chance to 2HKO Frillish - same as Wild Charge. Abra also gets obliterated by Flare Blitz, so Crunch doesn't help much in that matchup anyway. Psychic Fangs also does about the same damage to Mienfoo as Flare Blitz, and any relevant Pokemon that resists fire (even the psychic-weak Mareanie) takes more damage from Wild Charge than Psychic Fangs. Finally, Growlithe possesses Close Combat, which helps with the fire-resistant rock types of the tier in Onix and Tyrunt that aren't weak to Wild Charge. Additionally, Close Combat on this set only has a 50% chance to OHKO the fighting-weak Porygon unless it is has 0 HP and Defense investment. However, most Porygon sets run 36 EVs in Defense at the least, turning that into a 9.8% chance to OHKO.

As for the moves Ponyta has over Growltihe, High Horsepower is really the only notable addition. This also lets Ponyta deal with the aforementioned rock types of Tyrunt and Onix, just like Growlithe with Close Combat, though it also does a bit more damage to Koffing than Flare Blitz.

Second, Ponyta has a higher attack stat than Growlithe (85 attack compared to 70). This lets it do things like guarantee 2HKO standard Frillish and defensive Staryu as well as have an 88.2% chance to OHKO Mareanie with Wild Charge. Additionally, High Horsepower does the same damage to Rock types such as Onix and Tyrunt as Growlithe's Close Combat despite the lower base power. Ponyta's STAB moves like Flare Blitz and Flame Charge also do much more damage to fire-weak and neutral targets, such as a guaranteed OHKO on Defensive Foongus (Growlithe only has a 75% chance to OHKO) and a guaranteed 2HKO on LC staple Bulky Pivot Mienfoo.

Finally, and most importantly, Ponyta is much faster (90 speed compared to 60). This lets it hit the crucial speed tier of 19, speed-tying Pokemon such as Abra and Staryu and only being outsped by Diglett and Elekid at 20 speed. This is much faster than Growlithe's 16 speed, and it means that Ponyta can threaten the majority of the metagame with its combination of high speed and attack. Additionally, with the +1 speed granted by Flame Charge, it can even outspeed common scarfers like Porygon and Archen while also outspeeding common sweepers who are also at +1 speed such as Carvanha and Tyrunt and threatening them out. Growlithe, on the other hand, is outsped by relevant Pokemon such as Grookey, Mienfoo, and the aformentioned Pokemon like Abra and Staryu while also speed-tying with pokemon such as Pawniard and Larvesta. To outspeed these foes, it must use Flame Charge to get the +1 speed boost, but even then it isn't nearly as threatening due to it's lower attack.

So, in my opinion, there is literally no situation in which an offensive Growlithe is more effective than an offensive Ponyta. How about a defensive Growlithe set, however?

Here is an theoretical defensive Growlithe set I came up with:

Growlithe @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 36 Atk / 236 Def / 36 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp


This set aims to use Growlithe's access to Intimidate and Will-O-Wisp in order to be a physical tank. This set lets it check offensive threats such as Mienfoo and Grookey while also punishing in Water type switch ins such as Staryu and Mareanie with damage from Wild Charge. With these EVs, a -1 Mienfoo only does 28-36% with High Jump Kick while a -1 Grookey can only do 24% damage max with Knock Off if Growlithe still has its Eviolite. Growlithe can then threaten these Pokemon out with Will-O-Wisp. Finally, Morning Sun is there for longevity to let Growlithe take hits throughout a battle.

On paper, this set seems actually pretty decent. However, this set is outclassed by another defensive fire type: Larvesta. Larvesta has three key differences that let it perform better than Growlithe in this role: type, ability, and U-Turn.

Larvesta's partial bug typing crucially lets it resist the fighting type attacks that are common in this tier from Fighting types such as Mienfoo and gives it a double resistance to Grass, letting it easily counter non-Acrobatics Grookey. This means that Larvesta almost always takes less damage from the Pokemon it is meant to check than Growlithe. The only things Growlithe can claim over Larvesta in its typing is that it takes only 25% damage from Stealth Rock compared to Larvesta's 50% as well as a weakness to Flying. Due to its helpful resistances, however, I would argue that the benefits of Larvesta's typing FAR outweigh the drawbacks.

Second, Larvesta's ability Flame Body is a much better deterrent to physical attackers than Growlithe's Intimidate. When a Growlithe switches in on a Pokemon like Mienfoo and Grookey, the -1 Attack much more often only helps the Growlithe take hits than the rest of its team. These Pokemon will commonly want to switch out or U-Turn to avoid a Will-O-Wisp burn, so unless one correctly predicts a switch or punishes an expected U-Turn from these Pokemon, Growlithe's teammates don't benefit from the damage debuff granted by the Intimidate as often as Growlithe does. Flame Body, on the other hand, gives the user a much higher chance of leaving a Pokemon like Mienfoo or Grookey with a burn than just hoping they stay in and get burned by Will-O-Wisp. Plus, it can punish a Fake Out or U-Turn much more effectively by increasing the opportunities for a burn on the Pokemon. Plus, the Pokemon will stay burned the rest of the battle, meaning that Larvesta's teammates will be able to take hits from them regardless of whether the Larvesta was just in last turn (such as is the problem with Intimidate Growlithe). Finally, Intimidate means that Growlithe is unable to check Pawniard because it gives it a free Attack boost from Defiant. Larvesta has no such issue and can switch into Pawniard safely.

Finally, Larvesta's access to U-Turn lets it act as a defensive pivot rather than just a tank, letting the user get momentum in the battle. If a Pokemon like Mienfoo or Grookey is worried about being burned, it will switch out. If one U-Turns on that switch, the user can bring in a Pokemon that can threaten whatever Pokemon the opponent switched into, giving the user an immediate advantage in the battle. Growlithe is unable to provide this niche and must rely on reads to get momentum on switches. Additionally, while Growlithe can punish switch ins like Staryu and Mareanie with damage from Wild Charge, Larvesta can simply U-Turn to another teammate who can threaten them without worrying about recoil damage.

In conclusion, Growlithe offers no sort of niche whatsoever and is outclassed by Ponyta offensively and Larvesta defensively. Thus, I believe that Growlithe should remain Unranked on the LC Viability Rankings.


P.S. This is also my first post on the forum, so let me know if I've done it all right!

 

[PlayerPier2]

I feel like Growlithe isn't the worst Pokemon to use per se. It's just outclassed. Offensively, Ponyta has the same type and ability and comes with Flare Blitz, Flame Charge, Wild Charge, and Morning Sun, just like Growlithe. However, Ponyta also comes with three key additions: better coverage, higher attack, and higher speed. Defensively, Larvesta does a better job of checking physical threats like Mienfoo and Pawniard than Intimidate Growlithe due to it's typing, ability, and U-turn.

First, let's talk about offensive Growlithe, starting with its moves. Growlithe has a few coverage moves that Ponyta lacks, such Crunch, Psychic Fangs, and Close Combat. However, none of these end up helping it too much besides Close Combat. Using Crunch, this Growlithe set only has a 0.4% chance to 2HKO Frillish - same as Wild Charge. Abra also gets obliterated by Flare Blitz, so Crunch doesn't help much in that matchup anyway. Psychic Fangs also does about the same damage to Mienfoo as Flare Blitz, and any relevant Pokemon that resists fire (even the psychic-weak Mareanie) takes more damage from Wild Charge than Psychic Fangs. Finally, Growlithe possesses Close Combat, which helps with the fire-resistant rock types of the tier in Onix and Tyrunt that aren't weak to Wild Charge. Additionally, Close Combat on this set only has a 50% chance to OHKO the fighting-weak Porygon unless it is has 0 HP and Defense investment. However, most Porygon sets run 36 EVs in Defense at the least, turning that into a 9.8% chance to OHKO.

As for the moves Ponyta has over Growltihe, High Horsepower is really the only notable addition. This also lets Ponyta deal with the aforementioned rock types of Tyrunt and Onix, just like Growlithe with Close Combat, though it also does a bit more damage to Koffing than Flare Blitz.

Second, Ponyta has a higher attack stat than Growlithe (85 attack compared to 70). This lets it do things like guarantee 2HKO standard Frillish and defensive Staryu as well as have an 88.2% chance to OHKO Mareanie with Wild Charge. Additionally, High Horsepower does the same damage to Rock types such as Onix and Tyrunt as Growlithe's Close Combat despite the lower base power. Ponyta's STAB moves like Flare Blitz and Flame Charge also do much more damage to fire-weak and neutral targets, such as a guaranteed OHKO on Defensive Foongus (Growlithe only has a 75% chance to OHKO) and a guaranteed 2HKO on LC staple Bulky Pivot Mienfoo.

Finally, and most importantly, Ponyta is much faster (90 speed compared to 60). This lets it hit the crucial speed tier of 19, speed-tying Pokemon such as Abra and Staryu and only being outsped by Diglett and Elekid at 20 speed. This is much faster than Growlithe's 16 speed, and it means that Ponyta can threaten the majority of the metagame with its combination of high speed and attack. Additionally, with the +1 speed granted by Flame Charge, it can even outspeed common scarfers like Porygon and Archen while also outspeeding common sweepers who are also at +1 speed such as Carvanha and Tyrunt and threatening them out. Growlithe, on the other hand, is outsped by relevant Pokemon such as Grookey, Mienfoo, and the aformentioned Pokemon like Abra and Staryu while also speed-tying with pokemon such as Pawniard and Larvesta. To outspeed these foes, it must use Flame Charge to get the +1 speed boost, but even then it isn't nearly as threatening due to it's lower attack.

So, in my opinion, there is literally no situation in which an offensive Growlithe is more effective than an offensive Ponyta. How about a defensive Growlithe set, however?

Here is an theoretical defensive Growlithe set I came up with:

Growlithe @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 36 Atk / 236 Def / 36 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp


This set aims to use Growlithe's access to Intimidate and Will-O-Wisp in order to be a physical tank. This set lets it check offensive threats such as Mienfoo and Grookey while also punishing in Water type switch ins such as Staryu and Mareanie with damage from Wild Charge. With these EVs, a -1 Mienfoo only does 28-36% with High Jump Kick while a -1 Grookey can only do 24% damage max with Knock Off if Growlithe still has its Eviolite. Growlithe can then threaten these Pokemon out with Will-O-Wisp. Finally, Morning Sun is there for longevity to let Growlithe take hits throughout a battle.

On paper, this set seems actually pretty decent. However, this set is outclassed by another defensive fire type: Larvesta. Larvesta has three key differences that let it perform better than Growlithe in this role: type, ability, and U-Turn.

Larvesta's partial bug typing crucially lets it resist the fighting type attacks that are common in this tier from Fighting types such as Mienfoo and gives it a double resistance to Grass, letting it easily counter non-Acrobatics Grookey. This means that Larvesta almost always takes less damage from the Pokemon it is meant to check than Growlithe. The only things Growlithe can claim over Larvesta in its typing is that it takes only 25% damage from Stealth Rock compared to Larvesta's 50% as well as a weakness to Flying. Due to its helpful resistances, however, I would argue that the benefits of Larvesta's typing FAR outweigh the drawbacks.

Second, Larvesta's ability Flame Body is a much better deterrent to physical attackers than Growlithe's Intimidate. When a Growlithe switches in on a Pokemon like Mienfoo and Grookey, the -1 Attack much more often only helps the Growlithe take hits than the rest of its team. These Pokemon will commonly want to switch out or U-Turn to avoid a Will-O-Wisp burn, so unless one correctly predicts a switch or punishes an expected U-Turn from these Pokemon, Growlithe's teammates don't benefit from the damage debuff granted by the Intimidate as often as Growlithe does. Flame Body, on the other hand, gives the user a much higher chance of leaving a Pokemon like Mienfoo or Grookey with a burn than just hoping they stay in and get burned by Will-O-Wisp. Plus, it can punish a Fake Out or U-Turn much more effectively by increasing the opportunities for a burn on the Pokemon. Plus, the Pokemon will stay burned the rest of the battle, meaning that Larvesta's teammates will be able to take hits from them regardless of whether the Larvesta was just in last turn (such as is the problem with Intimidate Growlithe). Finally, Intimidate means that Growlithe is unable to check Pawniard because it gives it a free Attack boost from Defiant. Larvesta has no such issue and can switch into Pawniard safely.

Finally, Larvesta's access to U-Turn lets it act as a defensive pivot rather than just a tank, letting the user get momentum in the battle. If a Pokemon like Mienfoo or Grookey is worried about being burned, it will switch out. If one U-Turns on that switch, the user can bring in a Pokemon that can threaten whatever Pokemon the opponent switched into, giving the user an immediate advantage in the battle. Growlithe is unable to provide this niche and must rely on reads to get momentum on switches. Additionally, while Growlithe can punish switch ins like Staryu and Mareanie with damage from Wild Charge, Larvesta can simply U-Turn to another teammate who can threaten them without worrying about recoil damage.

In conclusion, Growlithe offers no sort of niche whatsoever and is outclassed by Ponyta offensively and Larvesta defensively. Thus, I believe that Growlithe should remain Unranked on the LC Viability Rankings.


P.S. This is also my first post on the forum, so let me know if I've done it all right!

Very interesting explanation!

I admit I first started using Growlithe because neither Larvesta (my first choice), nor Ponyta were helping me getting results.
Maybe I just didn't know how to set them up properly... : D

 

[Horus13]

Nominating Clobbopus to D
While it isn't a very good option for attacking or defense, it has access to technician boosted circle throw, which can be used to stop most sweeps when used with a focus sash. This is the moveset I use:

Clobbopus @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 212 Atk / 36 Def / 196 SpD / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Circle Throw
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Pain Split

Close combat and sucker punch together are useful for when you don't want to force your opponent out, and pain split is useful for healing if you have the option. Overall, it's not a good pokemon, but it has a useful niche in the format, especially against swords dance grookey, carvanha, dragon dance tyrunt, and belly drum users.
It's most useful when paired with a pokemon that runs spikes and/or stealth rocks for chip damage, but everyone should run one of those anyway.
If I'm completely wrong which I'm sure I am someone please explain why.

 

[JustNot]

D -> C
Attention citizen of baby tier, most importantly Fiendlan Fitzgerald Houndour. I, the Minccino guy, am here to bring justice for this dapperly looking chinchilla
#CinnoForC

the set i am using currently

Minccino @ Life Orb
Ability: Skill Link
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tail Slap
- Knock Off
- Triple Axel
- Substitute/U-turn
Minccino literally can’t do damage without life orb skill link so that’s obvious. Max speed and attack to outspeed 17s and hit hard. Tail slap is bread and butter, hits almost literally everything and does massive damage. Knock off cripples most mons. Triple axel hits Tyrunt, Onix and Foongus harder. I always think that U-turn is useless on Minccino, usually U-turn is used to scout switches but most of Minccino switch ins have contact punishers (example: Larv, Ferro, bulky Pony) so why not subsitute? If Ferro switches in to a sub you get a free knock without getting paralyzed/knocked. If Frillish switches in you can ko it without getting burned. With flame body users I don’t really know, Minc really just loses bad to both of them, best bet’s to double switch

what does it do?

Simple. IT STRONK BABY FUCK YEAH. OHKOs MIENFOO AFTER A LAYER OF SPIKES. OHKOs MAREANIE AFTER 2 LAYERS. OHKOs UR MOM AFTER NO CHIP. All jokes aside though Minccino is good at pressuring the opponent with it’s god levels of strength. Imagine a Minccino facing your slightly chipped Mienfoo, you either have to sack Mienfoo or let it knock ur Ferro which enables sweepers like fire fangless Tyrunt. That’s really the only thing it does but it’s damn dimmadome good at doing it

well then what’s it’s weaknesses?

Just outspeed it lol, this boi is literally paper it dies to EVERYTHING exactly why they should give it speed boost and ooh ooh maybe fire punch too. Ok i am getting ahead of myself. Another weakness is that it can’t switch in this fraile, but hey, nothing ever stopped Abra from switching in. All you need is a u-turner. As for outspeeding, trapping and priority move weakness you can’t really do anything about that. Maybe just load up on evio Ponies and SD Grook to beat that

WHY BOI SHOULD BE C

this is the meat and bone of this whole post. Listen to me as I explain why it should be C
well FIRST OF ALL. Minccino’s not bad bruh, if it finds an opportunity to switch in something’s dropping or getting knocked. Which is super valuable, and it’s not even hard to get it in. Since it’s mostly in spikestack you can sack Dwebble to get it in too
SECOND OF ALL. WHICH IS THE BIGGEST FUCKING REASON. WHY THE FUCK IS BUNNELBY C, THIS IS BULLSHIT. BUNNELBY IS WAY FUCKING WEAKER THAN MINCCINO AND HAS LOWER SPEED. YEAH IT HAS PRIORITY AND BETTER BULK, DOESN’T HELP THE FACT THAT ITS COMPLETELY DESTROYED BY MIENFOO INSTEAD OF DESTROYING MIENFOO LIKE MINCCINO. HELL BUNNELBY’S QUICK ATTACK IS STILL 50% CHANCE TO KILL ABRA. WHICH IS PATHETIC
EVEN IF MINCCINO’S NOT GETTING C I AM DRAGGING THIS STUPID FUCKING BUNNY WITH ME DOWN TO D TIER. EVEN UNRANKED #FUCKBUNNELBY

 

[Bella]

D -> C
Attention citizen of baby tier, most importantly Fiendlan Fitzgerald Houndour. I, the Minccino guy, am here to bring justice for this dapperly looking chinchilla
#CinnoForC

the set i am using currently

Minccino @ Life Orb
Ability: Skill Link
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 36 Def / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tail Slap
- Knock Off
- Triple Axel
- Substitute/U-turn
Minccino literally can’t do damage without life orb skill link so that’s obvious. Max speed and attack to outspeed 17s and hit hard. Tail slap is bread and butter, hits almost literally everything and does massive damage. Knock off cripples most mons. Triple axel hits Tyrunt, Onix and Foongus harder. I always think that U-turn is useless on Minccino, usually U-turn is used to scout switches but most of Minccino switch ins have contact punishers (example: Larv, Ferro, bulky Pony) so why not subsitute? If Ferro switches in to a sub you get a free knock without getting paralyzed/knocked. If Frillish switches in you can ko it without getting burned. With flame body users I don’t really know, Minc really just loses bad to both of them, best bet’s to double switch

what does it do?

Simple. IT STRONK BABY FUCK YEAH. OHKOs MIENFOO AFTER A LAYER OF SPIKES. OHKOs MAREANIE AFTER 2 LAYERS. OHKOs UR MOM AFTER NO CHIP. All jokes aside though Minccino is good at pressuring the opponent with it’s god levels of strength. Imagine a Minccino facing your slightly chipped Mienfoo, you either have to sack Mienfoo or let it knock ur Ferro which enables sweepers like fire fangless Tyrunt. That’s really the only thing it does but it’s damn dimmadome good at doing it

well then what’s it’s weaknesses?

Just outspeed it lol, this boi is literally paper it dies to EVERYTHING exactly why they should give it speed boost and ooh ooh maybe fire punch too. Ok i am getting ahead of myself. Another weakness is that it can’t switch in this fraile, but hey, nothing ever stopped Abra from switching in. All you need is a u-turner. As for outspeeding, trapping and priority move weakness you can’t really do anything about that. Maybe just load up on evio Ponies and SD Grook to beat that

WHY BOI SHOULD BE C

this is the meat and bone of this whole post. Listen to me as I explain why it should be C
well FIRST OF ALL. Minccino’s not bad bruh, if it finds an opportunity to switch in something’s dropping or getting knocked. Which is super valuable, and it’s not even hard to get it in. Since it’s mostly in spikestack you can sack Dwebble to get it in too
SECOND OF ALL. WHICH IS THE BIGGEST FUCKING REASON. WHY THE FUCK IS BUNNELBY C, THIS IS BULLSHIT. BUNNELBY IS WAY FUCKING WEAKER THAN MINCCINO AND HAS LOWER SPEED. YEAH IT HAS PRIORITY AND BETTER BULK, DOESN’T HELP THE FACT THAT ITS COMPLETELY DESTROYED BY MIENFOO INSTEAD OF DESTROYING MIENFOO LIKE MINCCINO. HELL BUNNELBY’S QUICK ATTACK IS STILL 50% CHANCE TO KILL ABRA. WHICH IS PATHETIC
EVEN IF MINCCINO’S NOT GETTING C I AM DRAGGING THIS STUPID FUCKING BUNNY WITH ME DOWN TO D TIER. EVEN UNRANKED #FUCKBUNNELBY

So to be honest, im not in favor of this. Let me explain why in two simple steps.

1: The steels.
Ah yes, Ferro and Pawn. Two mons that completely stop Mincinno in its tracks. Ferroseed especially fucks with Cino since iron brabs removes like.... 60% of your Health with LO recoil LMAO. Also, Pawn (and Priority in general), stops it.

2: 19 Speeders.

In my opinion the biggest issue with Mincinno is the fact it cant reach 19 Speed. As such, Ponyta, Abra, and Staryu all are major issues to it. SashBra only needs a bit of chip to OHKO you, and LO Abra 15/16 times OHKOs you.
236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Minccino: 18-22 (81.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
156 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Minccino: 21-27 (95.4 - 122.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

What about Ponyta? Well Ponytas often run Flame Body, which cripples Mincinno hard. Also you get OHKOd by Blitz lol.
236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Minccino: 21-25 (95.4 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Staryu actually has a slightly worse Matchup to Mincinno in the 1v1, mainly due to the fact its OHKO move can miss. Either way it forces you out.

116 SpA Life Orb Staryu Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Minccino: 21-27 (95.4 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
please also understand most, if not all, viable teams will have at least 1-2 of those Pokemon, meaning almost every team will have a Mincinno check..

 

[Ash3r]

UR → D tier
I used Litwick for a while for LCLT and think it should atleast be D tier on the VR

What does litwick do?

Who does Litwick check?
Litwick is the best switch into Koffing as it can only 3HKO litwick as litwick threatens to 2HKO back with psychic and discouraging steels and psychic types from switching into litwick’s super effective STABs, Litwick also walls charmander and larvesta resisting or being immune to their attacks, and checking grass types like grookey and foongus with an ohko

What can Litwick do with its type?
Being a ghost type, litwick can avoid getting trapped by diglett or trapinch, Litwick’s immunity to fighting moves can discourage mienfoo from using HJK and risking the recoil. With Flash Fire, Litwick’s STAB attacks become even stronger 2HKO’ing or OHKO’ing most non-resists.

Lastly, Litwick can cripple physical attackers switching into it such as darks like carvanha and pawn, grounds/rocks like mudbray, tyrunt, onix.

The set

Berry juice (Litwick) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Flash Fire
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 156 Def / 76 SpA / 156 SpD / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Shadow Ball
- Psychic
- Will-O-Wisp
Berry Juice gives litwick a form of recovery over pain split and can let litwick run will-o-wisp freely no longer needing pain split.
Litwick uses flashfire to gain an immunity to fire moves letting it come in on fire type attacks from natu, charmander, vulpix, and larvesta boosting its own fire moves and forcing them out and getting a quick flash fire boosted overheat to deal big damage on the opponent’s team
36 Speed let’s litwick outspeed ferroseed and foongus
Overheat is Litwick’s main STAB move that’ll 2HKO most pokemon. Shadow ball is the next STAB for use against natu and on pokemon that resist fire types. Psychic hits the poison and fighting types for super effective damage without Litwick lowering its Special attack with overheat. And lastly, Will-O-Wisp cripples physical attackers

Note: Fire blast/Flamethrower can be run over Overheat to avoid the special attack drop

Checks and Counters

Water types like Carvanha and Staryu threaten Litwick with an OHKO and force it out, Knock off users like the ever prevalent mienfoo, pawniard still hit Litwick hard and ferroseed could discourage it switching in with knock.

Why Litwick shouldn’t be UR

Litwick may not be able to beat mienfoo but it can surely support it, after what I mentioned earlier about litwick beating Koffing and Larvesta two thorns in the side of mienfoo, and deal with natu to an extent can solidify Litwick as a niche teammate for Mienfoo

That said, I'd like to hear why Litwick has remained UR so far and thoughts on it

 

[Supergum]

Friendly reminder about what Fiend said in this post, when the D rank was introduced:

Please let's avoid spending too much time trying to hash out the differences between D and C. Please do NOT nominate new Pokemon for the D rank.

I think there's much better uses for people's time than discussing the viability (or lack thereof) of mons that will realistically see next to no serious usage either way.

 

[Ash3r]

ah I see I didn't know my bad

 

[Ash3r]

Can I just edit the post to nominate from UR to C tier?

 

[Pamplona]

Nominating Gossifleur from UR to C

Set used:

Gossifleur @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 116 Def / 36 SpA / 196 SpD / 36 Spe
Modest Nature
- Giga Drain
- Pollen Puff
- Sleep Powder
- Rapid Spin

Gossifleur occupies an interesting utility spot in the metagame that is not reserved by any other pokemon as it inherits a complete kit of support options that other pokemon don't quite have all of.

Here are some of the traits that Gossifleur has all of:
1. Grass Type Rapid Spinner -- Gossifleur can remove hazards against Ferroseed and threaten spin blockers with giga drain and sleep powder. Also can chip away at ferroseed with pollen puff.

2. Regenerator -- Allows gossifleur to not worry about getting hit when removing hazards or worrying about having to use a turn using synthesis vs drilburs earthquake.

3. Sleep powder -- Covers gossifleurs passiveness and makes it harder to set up on. Also means that pokemon that it can't threaten through coverage (i.e Koffing) can be threatened by being slept.

4. Pollen puff + Giga drain combo - Interesting move that threatens grookey, carvanha, and abra while also being completely safe vs trapping pokemon or to deny Natu roosts especially if knocked. Works well in the current meta and can clean up those late game matchups.

What separates it from its competition:
(The reoccurring theme: They don't possess all the support options gossifleur can come with nor the typing)

Rapid Spinners
- Has no access to healing, sleep, and its pure ground typing means it can't safely remove hazards vs ferroseed or threaten frillish until items are removed or their hp is low.

- Pretty rough vs ferroseed as you often just spin and then watch the hazards come back up. Also needs some help to finish off frillish and can't threaten to put it to sleep.

Passive regenerators:

- Foongus has the advantage of being a fighting resist but the poison typing grants gossifleur an advantage to deny carvanha sweeps. Foongus also can't rapid spin and with its moveset does not want to fight ferroseed.

- Grass typing means we will not be seeing gossifleur get trapped as much. It's a lot easier to earthquake kill a mareanie than it is to first impression kill a gossifleur. Poison typing also invites a carvanha sweep. Also lacks the sleep option.

This is not to say gossifleur completely outclasses any of these pokemon by any means, it's meant to say that gossifleur occupies its own unique niche that has relevance.

Replays:
vs Laroxyl
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1656074008

Gossifleur makes this endgame painful for the opponent and shows how it can be a threat vs current trends in the metagame.

vs Igor Shesterkin
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8lc-1656044763

Gossifleur showing that it can be very annoying for ferroseed, and this is a ferroseed who still has its eviolite in tact.


Some of the limiting factors that I think prevent Gossifleur rising higher is that it would still appreciate extra bulk, more speed, and more coverage options. It's still very much serviceable in its current state and should be looked at more when teambuilding. It's a good flex option to round out a squad, covering general holes that its aforementioned competition can't quite achieve.

 

[Berks]

I've thought similarly about Gossifleur for a long time, and would like to add that it forms an excellent core with Larvesta by both beating Waters (especially Frillish) and removing hazards. Larvesta on the rise should be a boon to all spinners, but especially to a Grass-type spinner. Plus, if you can trap an opposing Fire-type, it gets very much more difficult to get rid of.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I've thought similarly about Gossifleur for a long time, and would like to add that it forms an excellent core with Larvesta by both beating Waters (especially Frillish) and removing hazards. Larvesta on the rise should be a boon to all spinners, but especially to a Grass-type spinner. Plus, if you can trap an opposing Fire-type, it gets very much more difficult to get rid of.

I mean, the flip side is true: Larvesta is a good invalidate of Gossifleur since it can burn it and get off a free U-turn. Defog would also render it somewhat useless, as is the case on many Larvesta teams.

 

[JustNot]

So to be honest, im not in favor of this. Let me explain why in two simple steps.

1: The steels.
Ah yes, Ferro and Pawn. Two mons that completely stop Mincinno in its tracks. Ferroseed especially fucks with Cino since iron brabs removes like.... 60% of your Health with LO recoil LMAO. Also, Pawn (and Priority in general), stops it.

2: 19 Speeders.

In my opinion the biggest issue with Mincinno is the fact it cant reach 19 Speed. As such, Ponyta, Abra, and Staryu all are major issues to it. SashBra only needs a bit of chip to OHKO you, and LO Abra 15/16 times OHKOs you.
236 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Minccino: 18-22 (81.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
156 SpA Life Orb Abra Psychic vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Minccino: 21-27 (95.4 - 122.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

What about Ponyta? Well Ponytas often run Flame Body, which cripples Mincinno hard. Also you get OHKOd by Blitz lol.
236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Minccino: 21-25 (95.4 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Staryu actually has a slightly worse Matchup to Mincinno in the 1v1, mainly due to the fact its OHKO move can miss. Either way it forces you out.

116 SpA Life Orb Staryu Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Minccino: 21-27 (95.4 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
please also understand most, if not all, viable teams will have at least 1-2 of those Pokemon, meaning almost every team will have a Mincinno check..

Minccino’s job isn’t to outspeed 19s or kill steels, it’s to force mons out so it’s teammates can capitalize on it. If your Minc is facing a chipped Foo ur either sacking the most important mon in the team or getting ur Ferro knocked
But I kinda did forget to mention 19 speeders and Grookey problem. Most 19 speeders (flame body Pony being an exception) isn’t even a “check” either since they can’t switch in. Hell if you’re a fucking psychopath you can run thunder wave to shit on Pony switch-ins, it’s stupid but it works
Man why did they remove wake up slap :(

 

[Horus13]

Nominating Wooper from UR to at least C

Set:

Wooper @ Eviolite
Ability: Unaware
Level: 5
EVs: 156 Atk / 76 Def / 236 SpD
Impish Nature
- Aqua Tail
- Earthquake
- Yawn
- Recover

Utility:
Wooper is great for disrupting and forcing switches from set up sweepers like tyrunt and shell smash mons. Yawn also forces switches from pokemon that could counter it, recover helps it regain lost health which works especially well at stalling out mons with low pp moves. Earthquake and waterfall are almost completely unresisted except against grass types. Once its checks are removed, its extremely hard to remove, especially with yawn + recover. Grass type moves are uncommon to be run on any mon that isn't a grass type, which is extremely good for Wooper, and grass is its only weakness. Its by no means a sweeper, but can hold on late game supporting a sweeper in a 2v4, 2v3, or even a 2v5 if you get lucky and your opponent has low health. It provides incredible support for any sweeper, especially fast or priority sweepers like Grookey and Ponyta, as well as countering poison types for Mienfoo.

Checks:
Grass types like Grookey are its biggest checks, but Natu and Mienfoo can also brute force their way to a KO, though it will take time and PP from their psychic/high jump kick, however, if either of those switch in on an aqua tail or earthquake for Mienfoo, Wooper can deal big damage back, as it 3HKOs them. It also struggles to deal damage against Startyu, but Staryu struggles to deal high enough damage to it to counter Wooper's recover. Abra can also 2HKO Wooper, but Wooper OHKOs it with both aqua tail and earthquake, so as long as it doesn't switch in on an Abra it's ok

Options:
Wooper can run infestation over yawn for utility as a trapper, which can help you trap mons like Ponyta that may otherwise sweep your team and stop Natu . It can also run protect as more of a Mienfoo counter, because most Mienfoo will only be able to deal high damage with high jump kick. Waterfall can also be swapped for aqua tail for a crit chance.

Overall
While Wooper is still incredibly niche, it has access to a decent movepool, counters basically every sweep except swords dance Grookey, and supports nearly every powerful mon in the meta other than maybe Carvanha and Diglett who are weak to Grookey. The biggest problems with it are its low attack and speed, however those are less important for the niche Wooper fills as a support mon.

 

[Drifting]

This thread has gone a little bit... off the rails, so I'm posting this in order to reframe the discussion to meta relevant Pokemon as opposed to nominating Roggenrola to D-Rank because he hard-counters Hoothoot or whatever.


Natu: A+ Rank > S- Rank (or S)

This is a little bit controversial and something I've said before, but I think this mon is clearly S-Tier at this point. It's usage in LCPL was an insane 60%+, has great coverage and utility, and like Mienfoo makes basically every team better.

The argument against this would be that Mienfoo is better and on every team (sans HO), which is true, but I think the idea that Mienfoo being a god means Natu can't also be a god is flawed. In a tier with a similar situation to ours, Ubers, where Yvetal has literally 100% usage, NDM and Eternatus are included in S-Tier. Likewise in DPP LC, Gligar received 10% less LCPL usage than Munchlax but is of course still also S-Tier in the VR.

All rambling aside though, I'd probably still rather opt to create an S- tier for Natu. It's absolutely better than the other A+ mons and is on quite literally the majority of teams.


Larvesta: B+ Rank > A- Rank

I think everyone agrees on this one. Larvesta has glown up in a major way with recent results, with Poisonless structures feeling surprisingly strong and viable in the meta. It definitely feels way more in line with the A mons than the B ones. I don't think I need to say too much though I think everyone is on the same page about this one.


Tyrunt: A- Rank > A Rank

mon is broken as fuck. next.


Magby: B Rank > B+ Rank

see above


Farfetch'd-Galar: C Rank > B- Rank

This mon feels like a one-hit wonder with the CMDoge team, but that hit is really good if you get what I mean. Putting this thing below Stunky feels illegal (even if I think stunky is actually really good).


Timburr: B Rank > B+ Rank

This mon sticks out like a sore thumb in the crowded B-Rank, and he is for sure better than his peers. This mon can do a lot (set-up sweep, remove hazards, strong priority, etc), has two very scary abilities, is a staple on a lot of archetypes and is just generally quite good. Don't let the fact that Mienfoo outclasses him make you think this mon isn't epic.


Staryu: A- Rank > A Rank

I'm a lot less confident in this one ngl, but I think Staryu is just really good, quite versatile, and fits on a lot of teams, I personally think it's just as good as the mons in A (and probably better than Mareanie tbh).


Onix: B+ Rank > B Rank

I'm always talking about how much I hate this mon. I know the Remoraiders notably used him with some success, I know I'm biased but putting him with mons like Mudbray and Dwebble doesn't feel right.


Golett: D Rank > C Rank (or higher? )

He's good I promise.

***

I wrote these quite quickly and they obv don't reflect my full thoughts on these mons, nor the VR as a whole, so if anyone has any questions about something that is (or isn't) listed I'm willing to answer, and if you don't agree with all of these that's fine, but I personally feel confident in these shifts.

Hope this generates some good discussion.

 

[TheShoddyStrawman]

This thread has gone a little bit... off the rails, so I'm posting this in order to reframe the discussion to meta relevant Pokemon as opposed to nominating Roggenrola to D-Rank because he hard-counters Hoothoot or whatever.


Natu: A+ Rank > S- Rank (or S)

This is a little bit controversial and something I've said before, but I think this mon is clearly S-Tier at this point. It's usage in LCPL was an insane 60%+, has great coverage and utility, and like Mienfoo makes basically every team better.

The argument against this would be that Mienfoo is better and on every team (sans HO), which is true, but I think the idea that Mienfoo being a god means Natu can't also be a god is flawed. In a tier with a similar situation to ours, Ubers, where Yvetal has literally 100% usage, NDM and Eternatus are included in S-Tier. Likewise in DPP LC, Gligar received 10% less LCPL usage than Munchlax but is of course still also S-Tier in the VR.

All rambling aside though, I'd probably still rather opt to create an S- tier for Natu. It's absolutely better than the other A+ mons and is on quite literally the majority of teams.


Larvesta: B+ Rank > A- Rank

I think everyone agrees on this one. Larvesta has glown up in a major way with recent results, with Poisonless structures feeling surprisingly strong and viable in the meta. It definitely feels way more in line with the A mons than the B ones. I don't think I need to say too much though I think everyone is on the same page about this one.


Tyrunt: A- Rank > A Rank

mon is broken as fuck. next.


Magby: B Rank > B+ Rank

see above

:farfetch
Farfetch'd-Galar: C Rank > B- Rank

This mon feels like a one-hit wonder with the CMDoge team, but that hit is really good if you get what I mean. Putting this thing below Stunky feels illegal (even if I think stunky is actually really good).


Timburr: B Rank > B+ Rank

This mon sticks out like a sore thumb in the crowded B-Rank, and he is for sure better than his peers. This mon can do a lot (set-up sweep, remove hazards, strong priority, etc), has two very scary abilities, is a staple on a lot of archetypes and is just generally quite good. Don't let the fact that Mienfoo outclasses him make you think this mon isn't epic.


Staryu: A- Rank > A Rank

I'm a lot less confident in this one ngl, but I think Staryu is just really good, quite versatile, and fits on a lot of teams, I personally think it's just as good as the mons in A (and probably better than Mareanie tbh).


Onix: B+ Rank > B Rank

I'm always talking about how much I hate this mon. I know the Remoraiders notably used him with some success, I know I'm biased but putting him with mons like Mudbray and Dwebble doesn't feel right.


Golett: D Rank > C Rank (or higher? )

He's good I promise.

***

I wrote these quite quickly and they obv don't reflect my full thoughts on these mons, nor the VR as a whole, so if anyone has any questions about something that is (or isn't) listed I'm willing to answer, and if you don't agree with all of these that's fine, but I personally feel confident in these shifts.

Hope this generates some good discussion.

My thoughts on the matter are thus.
Most of these I'm pretty fine with. Larvesta up to A- seems fair, especially with how debilitating burns are against Mienfoo and Grookey. Giving set-up sweepers a single turn can spell disaster. Fetch'd Galar I'm with moving to B-, but its still pretty eh.

The Timbs is... surprisingly good. Mienfoo has a lot of Utility, but Timbs has Mach Punch (For Carv and Tyrunt), Defog (cause spike stack is around) and then you have Knock to soften up the enemy team and Drain to keep yourself healthy. Even when I'm using the Specially Defensive spread on Timbs with Bulk Up, it takes a surprising amount of hits. Seriously, its really bulky. Give it a turn or two and It'll become exceedingly dangerous. If it keeps being as good as it is, I'd consider nominating it for A-.

Scarf Golett is just... eh mostly. You can't use Knock Off otherwise Poltergeist (one of the main reason you want to use it) becomes unusable. Dynamic Punch is pretty cool, but also you have a severe Knock Off weakness yourself. C tier seems acceptable but it seems like it could also stay in D tier.

The main choice I disagree with is Natu.

Its got great utility, but it can be a definite liability. You mentioned how Tyrunt and Magby are broken. Natu gives them a free turn and can't do much in return. Drilbur is on the rise in usage, and with Mold Breaker Stealth Rock, Magic Bounce isn't doing anything. It really easily dies to Carv Crunch, whereas something like Abra can use Substitute to turn the situation into a 50/50 as opposed to being forced to switch or click U turn. Dwebble doesn't really care about Natu's Magic Bounce and just kills it anyway.

Its still good, as its a ground immunity that can run a few different sets, but I don't think its quite S- tier.

Also on the subject of Carv, I think it can be moved to A-.

Is it bad? No. The meta has adapted to it and people know what it can do. Its just become much harder to use as a general offensive threat. Morelull is a hard stop, and people know how to preserve their Priority and or Defensive check to ensure Carv is limited. Its also quite prediction reliant, meaning that its pretty high risk high reward. Like with Natu, you either Protect on the switch out or you get bonked by a U turn and nearly die.

Thats all I really have to say for now. Hopefully this helps the conversation.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Also on the subject of Carv, I think it can be moved to A-.

Is it bad? No. The meta has adapted to it and people know what it can do. Its just become much harder to use as a general offensive threat. Morelull is a hard stop, and people know how to preserve their Priority and or Defensive check to ensure Carv is limited. Its also quite prediction reliant, meaning that its pretty high risk high reward. Like with Natu, you either Protect on the switch out or you get bonked by a U turn and nearly die.

Thats all I really have to say for now. Hopefully this helps the conversation.

I agree with all your other points except Carvanha. Sure, Morelull is a hard counter, but Carv isn’t used as a breaker. It’s a cleaner, and teammates such as Acrobatics Grookey and Magby take advantage of stuff like Morelull to possibly win the game.

I’m on mobile, so more to come.

 

[Shandeur]

I'll throw my two cents into the thread here real quick on other's opinions.


Natu is very, very good yes, but I don't believe it's of the same level as Mienfoo. This is due to several reasons.

1. Magic Bounce user that loses to or is punished by every Stealth Rock setter in the tier.

Pawniard can Knock it and can survive Heat Wave from full, Ferro can Knock, Drilbur ignores Magic Bounce entirely and Onix can just maul it with Head Smash/Rock Blast. One of the best (if not the best) traits of Magic Bounce is denying Rocks/Spikes, and every Rocker in the tier can punish Natu for trying to bounce back rocks. This requires prediction to get right, and can lead to bad results for you if you mispredict.

2. Stealth Rock Weakness + Combined with statement Number 1.

When combining these two factors together, it can feel prediction realiant to get its full potential. Without it, you just have a Pokemon with okay bulk.

3. It is able to be exploited easily.

Drilbur completely stuffs Natu, due to Mold Breaker + Rock Move. Carvanha can some in on its Psychic or Heat Wave, but not U-turn so it's less of a case of that. The biggest thing it lets in though, is Pawniard. Pawniard clicks Knock Off vs Natu and whatever the switch-in may be. Whether it be Mienfoo, Koffing, Diglett, whatever. It forces progress, and Natu has to both get chip on Pawniard and then predict it coming in and hit it with a Heat Wave to beat it. It can also Stealth Rock in it's face due to Knock Off. If it U-turns though, Natu is generally in a better position.

I don't think Natu is bad, not at all. I just think it shouldn't be S, personally.

TLDR: Natu (imo) doesn't seem to always do its job and kind of feels like a weak link whenever I put it on a team.

Now for a few mons that I'll quickly go over.


Carvanha is fine where it is. Yes, Morelull is rising in popularity, but that's one Pokemon that can get Flip Turned on into one of Carv's common partners. (I.E: Koffing)


This thing is fucking broken. You give it one free turn and it can win games at a drop of a hat. Trapinch's usage going down has really helped it, but Drilbur can check it in a pinch.


Like Tyrunt, it's insane. I've tried out Onix and believe in shouldn't drop as it is a surprisingly good check to this thing. I missed a HJK and had to sacrifice about half my team when it didn't have screens up.


Staryu is surprisingly still good. I've even been trying out Life Orb on it, and it's really, really strong. Doubling out to a Fighter/Fire on the Ferro is just as easy as clicking LO Analytic Hydro Pump. The other sets are still amazing too.


He is okay. That is all. (The sprite is sick though.)

TLDR 2: Carv is stay, Tyrunt and Magby should rise, Staryu should rise, Golett could stay the same or rise, idc.

 

[Wynaut Main]

So I've been testing out some non-meta pokemon for fun and whatnot in the ladder and I have come across one of the most surprisingly underrated Pokemon I've seen in all of the competitive metas I've played. This discovery might have been in LC but its ability was extremely infuriating in many gens' OU and hasn't seemed to slow down at all over the years:

Solosis should be in at least C-tier, heck, I would even argue B or B-. Here's why:

Magic Guard is a very good ability in this meta. Everything seems to want to set up rocks, spikes and toxic poisoning from the getgo and tear through everything after they take the chip damage. Paralysis is annoying but how can you get the one thing that annoys you if you're poisoned and can't even take damage from it? This is the beauty of Magic Guard. Even if you don't like Magic Guard, it gets the also-ever-loved Regenerator and immunity to powder moves like Sleep powder and Spore, Sandstorm and Hail damage in Overcoat. But wait: There's more!

So you know the monarch of the meta at the moment, Mienfoo? Solosis is bulky enough on Eviolite to take a knock off easily (under 48% to around 67%), and then merc the poor thing with a Psyshock or possibly even Psychic, only doing upwards of 66% on the bulky pivot set the meta loves so much and with a chance of taking it out completely if rocks are in play. People love running poison types like Foongus and Maraenie because of their ability to check Mienfoo as well, but little ol' Solosis here annihilates them too! The best part is that this is on only 76 special attack EVs, freeing up EVs to take to your Defenses if you wanted (and it's a really good idea too.) It would possibly be a nightmare if running more investment, but I haven't tested.

Sure, its speed isn't the greatest, but so what? That doesn't stop it from decimating the fighting and bulky poison types that pop up so much in the meta, swapping in without consequences concerning hazards and being able to tank some of the most concerning moves coming from common pokemon for players that want to use such an interesting pick.

This could be just from my experience, but hazards seem to be on almost every team in the meta and answers seem fairly few. Even though the ones that are there are really good at what they do, why should you have to bother and watch out for things, swap in, spin or defog, and swap out and risk losing the spinner or defogger when you have something capable of ignoring them altogether? Common psychic-weak types are a staple in the competitive scene, and even though what we have is good, what if we could tackle both without losing space? It also has room to run some really good coverage to other types, such as Flash Cannon, Energy Ball, and the completely-accurate Shock Wave. Throw in access to Calm Mind and sustainability in Recover, and you have the little green boi and an underrated pick in competitive Gen 8 Little Cup.

 

[TheShoddyStrawman]

So I've been testing out some non-meta pokemon for fun and whatnot in the ladder and I have come across one of the most surprisingly underrated Pokemon I've seen in all of the competitive metas I've played. This discovery might have been in LC but its ability was extremely infuriating in many gens' OU and hasn't seemed to slow down at all over the years:

Solosis should be in at least C-tier, heck, I would even argue B or B-. Here's why:

Magic Guard is a very good ability in this meta. Everything seems to want to set up rocks, spikes and toxic poisoning from the getgo and tear through everything after they take the chip damage. Paralysis is annoying but how can you get the one thing that annoys you if you're poisoned and can't even take damage from it? This is the beauty of Magic Guard. Even if you don't like Magic Guard, it gets the also-ever-loved Regenerator and immunity to powder moves like Sleep powder and Spore, Sandstorm and Hail damage in Overcoat. But wait: There's more!

So you know the monarch of the meta at the moment, Mienfoo? Solosis is bulky enough on Eviolite to take a knock off easily (under 48% to around 67%), and then merc the poor thing with a Psyshock or possibly even Psychic, only doing upwards of 66% on the bulky pivot set the meta loves so much and with a chance of taking it out completely if rocks are in play. People love running poison types like Foongus and Maraenie because of their ability to check Mienfoo as well, but little ol' Solosis here annihilates them too! The best part is that this is on only 76 special attack EVs, freeing up EVs to take to your Defenses if you wanted (and it's a really good idea too.) It would possibly be a nightmare if running more investment, but I haven't tested.

Sure, its speed isn't the greatest, but so what? That doesn't stop it from decimating the fighting and bulky poison types that pop up so much in the meta, swapping in without consequences concerning hazards and being able to tank some of the most concerning moves coming from common pokemon for players that want to use such an interesting pick.

This could be just from my experience, but hazards seem to be on almost every team in the meta and answers seem fairly few. Even though the ones that are there are really good at what they do, why should you have to bother and watch out for things, swap in, spin or defog, and swap out and risk losing the spinner or defogger when you have something capable of ignoring them altogether? Common psychic-weak types are a staple in the competitive scene, and even though what we have is good, what if we could tackle both without losing space? It also has room to run some really good coverage to other types, such as Flash Cannon, Energy Ball, and the completely-accurate Shock Wave. Throw in access to Calm Mind and sustainability in Recover, and you have the little green boi and an underrated pick in competitive Gen 8 Little Cup.

Unfortunately, gotta disagree with you.

First, abilities. Yes, they are good, but Overcoat would rarely see usage. Weather that deals damage isn't common in LC. Sand is invalidated by Grookey on the whole due to Grassy Surge creating Terrain, which halves Earthquake's power. Secondly, Grookey has access to Grassy Glide, which gives it a priority attack that hits Sand Rush mons hard. Hail is really niche due to Alolan Sandshrew not being the most reliable of sweepers. Magic Guard, on the other hand, has seen a good amount of use on Abra.

Solosis already has tough competition with Abra off the bat, as they both have the same special attack stat of 105. Abra also has a great speed stat of 90, allowing it to reach 19 which outspeeds the entirety of the tier, minus Diglett, Elekid which both outspeed it. It speed ties with Staryu, Magby and Ponyta. Solosis already has a hard time justifying its usage with Abra already, just on base stats.

Then comes into what I'm calling Gen 1 Pokemon Syndrome, where Pokemon Introduced in Generation 1 just get... the weirdest moves ever? Like seriously. Abra gets Mega Kick and Mega Punch. Its very dumb.

However, the main point in me bringing this up is that Abra's movepool is very large. Its 2 main checks in the tier, Ferroseed and Pawniard both have quadruple weaknesses. Ferroseed has Fire and Pawniard has Fighting. This is relevant because Abra has access to Fire Punch, Drain Punch, Submission, and Focus Punch. Therefore Abra can bypass its checks if it has the correct coverage. Solosis, unfortunately, does not have this kind of coverage. Therefore both Ferroseed and Pawniard can come in on it and either get a free Knock Off into your team, removing Eviolite or another important item, or set up entry hazards.

Secondly, Hazard Control. Little Cup has... not too much in terms of hazard control. We have Rapid Spinners in Drilbur and Staryu and then Defog Timburr... and thats kind of it. Its not necessary by any means, but if you're worried about it, try running one of those instead. Each have their own merits.

Finally, a problem very unique to Little Cup, is the existence of trappers. These are Diglett and Trapinch . Arena Trap isn't banned. Abra is currently at A tier on the Viability Rankings due to this. Getting a kill on your opponents team is great, but what happens if you can't take too much advantage of it afterwards? Hypothetically, lets say that Solosis has killed something on your opponent's team. If either Trapinch or Diglett are on the enemy team, then Solosis will and cannot escape due to the trapping. Also you might get outsped by Trapinch, funnily enough. Therefore you can't even deal much damage to a possible Trapinch before it claims your Solosis. Abra could shore this weakness up by using a Shed Shell as its held item. This worked because it was fast enough to outspeed the common Knock Off users (plus its defenses are really weak so if it did get knocked off it'd just die anyway), so it could preserve its item. Solosis's speed doesn't allow such a liberty.

In conclusion, Solosis is too slow, has a too shallow move pool, and has to compete with Abra for a team slot. As a result of these factors, I do not think Solosis should be added to the VR. Its unfortunate cause its a really cool concept for a mon. Hope this helps explain why its not on there.

 

[spuds4ever]

Been a long time since I've played LC but I've been enjoying getting back into it, the meta is quite narrow and fast paced but there's still room for innovation as is evident from some tournament games I've seen. Got a few nominations to make myself.

Mareanie to drop to A- at least. Think this mon is way too passive to keep up with the speed of LC, it is significantly worse than both foongus and frillish imo which are its main competition for this slot unless you're playing into a very t-spike weak team. Firstly it gets trapped by diglett which is really bad for any defensive mon, secondly it doesn't bring any immediate threat to force/limit switches with its weak knock off like foongus or frillish do with spore/wisp. Could drop ferro for similar reasons but ferro's typing and ability to stop any sweep with t-wave AND spikes being better than t-spikes are all enough to mark it as a better mon.

Timburr to rise to B+ while it needs to be played more conservatively than mienfoo and not having u-turn/regen/speed is serious downside, mach punch, guts, and defog all provide very distinct utility that makes it a great glue mon especially for offensive teams like sun that appreciates all these things. The other competition it has for this role is grooky who's grassy glide hits much harder as a revenge killing tool, but timburr provides a lot more defensive utility with it's typing and aforementioned extra moves.

Shellder to rise to B- good cleaner, has a niche over tyrunt in that it's not revenged by timburr, sash abra or LO grook which are offense's main forms of speed control outside of scarfers which it also all outspeeds at +2. It's bulk and typing is also good enough that it can comfortably set up on most physical attackers which tyrunt can't. 4th slot options in rapid spin and explosion is also pretty good.

Finally, is sinistea really worth being ranked? weak armor seems too small a niche for even C for a mon with no movepool outside of plot.

fiend edit: please dont put your text color to black (or white) - unreadable on dark mode. use the eraser button

 

[Shandeur]

C -> B-/B

I'll keep it short: Life Orb + Amazing Coverage is insane. Brave Bird really helps vs Larv, and can catch other Fighters on the switch. Knock weakens switchins, like Koffing and Mare. Also, this calc.

236 Atk Life Orb Farfetch’d-Galar Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 76+ Def Koffing: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO

Yeah.

If you really hate Shellos you could run Leaf Blade, or even run Leek if you want. It's been going up recently, especially because CMDoge made a team with it and said team won LCPL.

 

[TheShoddyStrawman]

:ss/farfetch
C -> B-/B

I'll keep it short: Life Orb + Amazing Coverage is insane. Brave Bird really helps vs Larv, and can catch other Fighters on the switch. Knock weakens switchins, like Koffing and Mare. Also, this calc.

236 Atk Life Orb Farfetch’d-Galar Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 76+ Def Koffing: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 37.1% chance to 2HKO

Yeah.

If you really hate Shellos you could run Leaf Blade, or even run Leek if you want. It's been going up recently, especially because CMDoge made a team with it and said team won LCPL.

I second this cause you can also run a scarf set that can just keep clicking Close Combat because Scrappy hits Frillish. It also helps you pressure opposing Koffing which would open up your Mienfoo. This should also be included with Timburr rising to B+, as I think Timburr is better overall due to its bulk and utility.