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Should we allow Melmetal in the base meta?


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Aegislash seems concerning, if it was left unchanged from gen 7, then it's going to be basically the go to ghost type of this year's VGC (tho dynamax hurting it more than helping it could keep it at least incheck), and with singles, i cannot see it being allowed on OU at all, it's at the very least getting suspect tested, if not quickbanned. Ribombee seems cool for hyperoffense webs and stuff, now that smeargle is gone, you kinda have no choice lol. Regular sableye could be great in UU but it's going to get mutilated in OU, his stats are just too low.
 

Zneon

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With Sirfetch'd being Farfetch'd new evolution. I have a great feeling about Farfetch'd in LC, with the lower power level and half of the dex being cut means half of its checks/counters are gone. Meanwhile, its 90 attack is pretty great and with the Stick item, it will prove to be a real nuisance especially for bulky waters since Farfetch'd would just spam Stick Leaf Blades, which give an 100% crit rate because of its crit ratio. Having fantastic priority in First Impression going to be a problem for Abra on the switch in (if it even gets added) and brave birds will do serious damage to the fighting types in the tier. I don't know how dominate it will be in LC but from what I can speculate it will be very solid. This is Stick, we have to talk about the other things, since the power level is so low in LC, it can be used as a scarfer, an eviolite user for utility, U-turn to pivot, Wish and Tailwind for support, SD to sweep under sticky web, Sub SD, Knock Off for removing items, great priority in First Impression. My main point is that this mon has insane versitility, which doesn't matter in any other tier because of its awful stats, but in LC its stats are just right for it to be at home with the other LC mons. Here are a few god awful sets I made, with its pretty sweet movepool, you can do what your heart desires really.
083.png

Farfetch'd @ Stick
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 76 Def / 180 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Leaf Blade
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
083.png

Farfetch'd @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 100 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- Leaf Blade
- Poison Jab
083.png

Farfetch'd @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 76 Def / 180 SpD / 36 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Defog
- Knock Off
- Tailwind
- U-turn
083.png

Farfetch'd @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 116 Atk / 180 SpD
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Wish
- Tailwind
083.png

Farfetch'd @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Level: 5
EVs: 116 Atk / 180 SpD
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Knock Off
 
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Isn’t stick and max happiness a 100% crit? Since stick sets crit rate to 2 (50%) and max affection doubles crit chance. I could be wrong about this understanding of the mechanics.

Forgive me if I misunderstand things.
 

Eve

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Isn’t stick and max happiness a 100% crit? Since stick sets crit rate to 2 (50%) and max affection doubles crit chance. I could be wrong about this understanding of the mechanics.

Forgive me if I misunderstand things.
Affection is an ingame value and isn't linked to Happiness, it's linked to whatever the Poke Amie equivalent is
 

Zneon

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Isn’t stick and max happiness a 100% crit? Since stick sets crit rate to 2 (50%) and max affection doubles crit chance. I could be wrong about this understanding of the mechanics.

Forgive me if I misunderstand things.
That's affection, if I recall correctly
 

Egor

нет, товарищ генерал, это вы даёте
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:sm/aegislash:
I completely agree that this thing should be banned. While Aegislash doesn't make for a good Dynamax abuser, its bulk and sheer power between two formes, versatility in sets (physical and special breaking variants, SubToxic, some other defensive variants), and constant 50/50s against it contribute to Aegislash's unhealthiness for the metagame, just like in 6-7 gens.

:sm/lucario:
Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed / Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Meteor Mash / Earthquake

Swords Dance Lucario is a nice breaker, revenge killer, and even cleaner vs some bulkier teams thanks to several priority options, setup move, and decent Speed tier. Also being able to hard check Weavile is something cool. Another appeal of Lucario is that it doesn't need Dynamax in order to do its job. Moreover, Lucario kinda hates being Dynamaxed because this mechanic doesn't let Lucario use priority moves. I believe that Swords Dance is the best Lucario set in this metagame, comparing to potential others like Nasty Plot and Choice items: Vacuum Wave is inferior to Extreme Speed or Bullet Punch because it can't hit Gyarados and Ghosts, and Choice lock just prevents Lucario from breaking defensive backbones efficiently.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Very, very small update inbound:

https://www.gameinformer.com/2019/1...be-among-pokemons-most-challenging-encounters

If you take a look at the first screenshot in this article, Throh is confirmed! Its inclusion was already very likely seeing as Sawk's appearance has been known for a while and I doubt it'll be very good on its own, but hey, if there are any diehard Throh fans out there who wouldn't do anything involving SWSH until its return was confirmed without a shred of a doubt, well there you go.
 

Samtendo09

Ability: Light Power
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Very, very small update inbound:

https://www.gameinformer.com/2019/1...be-among-pokemons-most-challenging-encounters

If you take a look at the first screenshot in this article, Throh is confirmed! Its inclusion was already very likely seeing as Sawk's appearance has been known for a while and I doubt it'll be very good on its own, but hey, if there are any diehard Throh fans out there who wouldn't do anything involving SWSH until its return was confirmed without a shred of a doubt, well there you go.
I understand that we do need a full confirmation, but I mean who could be surprised? Seeing Sawk in the game but not Throh would be very odd considering they are counterparts, even if they aren't all that memorable. I will not expect them to have viability improved, though, since there's still other Fighting-types that are more competent for the Gen 8 Regional OU.
 

Eve

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I don't think we'll be getting much more completely new stuff in this livestream, but if we do I'll post about it. But for now-
Shiinotic and Trevenant join the meta! I doubt either will have much of an impact honestly- their typings match up pretty badly against a lot of threats.
We also have what I'm practically certain is Galarian Ponyta- depending on what type it ends up being, we could definitely try and add the galarian pony line to the meta! This also means that due to our rulings, Rapidash will be part of the meta- we should probably wait for absolute certainty, but I'm not sure I can be bothered when it seems so obvious
 

G-Luke

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Hey hey hey, psss, gamefreak, gamefreak gamefreak gamefreak, i know this may be hard to understand, but i want you to do something for me ok? just one small thing, not a big deal, it doesn't require too much effort and it would make me happier than the dex coming back

Add a button to skip both cutscenes and ingame turns, the first one is selfexplanatory, the second one would make online play much faster and actually worth playing over showdown.
This isnt the place to rant about your misgrievances with Gamefreak. Its not only missing the point of the Pet Mod but is useless in general, since GF won't ever see it
 
I posted it because of the online mode of the games and stuff (i want to try and get a good placement on VGC regionals), but fair enough, my bad.

For something actually on the topic, i have 0 hopes for shiinotic, it still has his same awful typing and lackluster stats, his only saving grace is strenght sap, and he is kinda outclassed on that rol anyways lol, i perfectly see this thing landing on the bottom of the barrel in terms of tiers. For kantonian rapidash, there's better fire types out there to use but could be useful on lower tiers or maybe even find a niche, but not much else. Trevenant is a gimmick and will probably always be a gimmick unless permanent weather comes back, as he lives and dies because of the sun, metaphorically and literally.
 
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Now I shall be taking a look at promising Tailwind setter in Doubles. We don't know if Corviknight would learn Tailwind yet, so I won't be covering it as Corviknight might be one of those Flying-types that lacks it.

:sm/mew:

Mew will be one of the best supporters in the format with its well-rounded stats and versatile movepool. Mew also stands out compared to other Tailwind setters with its unique combination of Fake Out, Transform and Stealth Rock. Expect Dark-type Pokemon and moves to be common as these can pressure Mew.

Mew @ Mago Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 68 Def / 40 SpA / 36 SpD / 104 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fake Out/ U-turn
- Transform/ Stealth Rock
- Ice Beam/ Thunderbolt
- Tailwind

This spread allows Mew to outspeed an unboosted Jolly Gyarados, either Transforming into it or strike Thunderbolt on it. Doubles prefer recovery berries over Leftovers unless it has Leech Seed. Fake Out can be handy for providing momentum to its ally, though you do need to be careful using it as Dynamax is immune to flinching.

:sm/hydreigon:

With Gen 8 having less powerful Fairy-type which previously held it back to worry about (so far), Hydreigon may saw a resurgence in usage, serving as an answer to the aforementioned Mew and Aegislash. Unfortunately, it suffers from 4 moveslot syndromes as it's unable to run all its coverage moves, Taunt and Roost at the same time.

Hydreigon @ Eject Pack/ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor/ Flamethrower
- Tailwind
- Protect

Taking advantage of the brand new Eject Pack that switches Hydreigon out after using Draco Meteor. However, this can be easily exploitable by Intimidate, so it's best to use it when the opponent can't trigger Intimidate. Life Orb works best on Dynamax Hydreigon since it not only fails to OHKO Mew without Dynamax but also triggers its berry.

252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Mew: 246-290 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Mew: 320-377 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:sm/togekiss:

Hey look, if Mew struggles against Hydreigon, then it would struggle against Togekiss with its resistance to its STAB, there's always will be bigger fish. It also happens to be one of the few Pokemon with Follow Me, redirecting any attack that its ally would be weak to as well as Heal Pulse. And in conjunction with Serene Grace, Air Slash will have a high chance of flinching after Tailwind. Unfortunately, it's stuck with Dazzling Gleam as its only viable Fairy-type attack, which it doesn't run. Doubt that Gen 8 would finally give Togekiss Moonblast, but it would be a neat surprise if it does.

Togekiss @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Tailwind
- Follow Me
- Protect

As stated before, Togekiss takes advantage of Tailwind by spreading flinch with Air Slash. It can afford to invest more in bulk to take advantage of Follow Me better and Air Slash is more for flinching anyway. For now, Togekiss shouldn't invest in speed as I don't think there would be anything it could outspeed pre-Tailwind.

:sm/braviary:
Given its moderate success in VGC 18 (DOU has Tornadus), Braviary can counter Intimidate with Defiant, making the player think twice while facing against it.

Braviary @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Superpower
- Tailwind
- Protect

Brave Bird is its hardest hitting move with good neutral coverage and KO Hitmontop no matter what. Superpower is for Tyranitar, Hydreigon and Ferrothorn. Not much else to say other than I want to see if it's worth exploring bulkier spread for it with other items such as 50% pinch berries or terrain seeds (preferably Psychic and Misty).

Any suggestions and feedbacks are greatly appreciated!
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Two things:

1. The Poll
Kinda forgot about this, now did I? Looking through the results, it seems like people are OK with including as many fully-evolved Pokemon as possible such as Obstagoon, Duraludon and Drednaw for speculation purposes, relying on guessed stats and movepools with little evidence to back them up. If Ezaphs would like to weigh in on this that'd be great.

2. Aegislash
Discuss this fearsome threat. We've had a few battles with it and it seems as scary as ever, but do you think we should give it more of a chance in the altered landscape or should we just get the quickban overwith?
 
Two things:

1. The Poll
Kinda forgot about this, now did I? Looking through the results, it seems like people are OK with including as many fully-evolved Pokemon as possible such as Obstagoon, Duraludon and Drednaw for speculation purposes, relying on guessed stats and movepools with little evidence to back them up. If Ezaphs would like to weigh in on this that'd be great.

2. Aegislash
Discuss this fearsome threat. We've had a few battles with it and it seems as scary as ever, but do you think we should give it more of a chance in the altered landscape or should we just get the quickban overwith?

1-Im OK with the speculation mons and stuff but please only allow them on a different ladder, just so we can still have a meta with only the stuff we reliably know.

2-Quickban, now, if aegislash was a problem on the past 2 gens then in this one he is even worse,the king of 50/50s now lives in a meta that lacks the firepower to do any significant damage to it, and the extra HP and power of dynamax, even though doesn't make him the best abuser for sure, allows him to improve his longevity and be able to both pick up a KO it normally wouldn't be able to and boost its special , and he can max guard twice and be vulnerable to damage only once (most of the time on shield form), so he still can do his shenanigants.
 

Zneon

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1 - that's all fine, like luisar said, allowing them on a different ladder would be nice

2- yeah this thing should be quickbanned from day 1, considering that gen 8 is probably going to have a much lower power level compared to gen 6/7, and aegislash was already broke for ou, this thing is going to be much better and not in a good way, this thing still has a great typing, forces 50/50s which determines who wins or loses, has nice versatility whether it is special, physical or defensive with toxic and be switch forms from being extremely bulky to an absolute crazy sweeper that is nearly impossible to revenge kill, this speaks to how unhealthy it was and will be in meta, so yeah this thing should be quickbanned
 

Samtendo09

Ability: Light Power
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1. Including the other Pokemon with minimal information would be neat, but only in a different ladder, something called Assumption Ladder.

2. If Aegislash was banned back in Generation 6 and 7 and the power level is much lower compared to Gen 6 and especially Gen 7, it will remain banned in Gen 8 because all of its tools are retained, and the Dynamax mechanic changes nothing as Aegislash can benefit from it as much as other viable Pokémon are able to.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Yeah, it seems the response to the Aegislash question is about what I was expecting. I myself am fairly confident it's too OP and that the meta changes help it far more than they hamper it. At this point, I'm just waiting for Ezaphs to give the green light to a quickban. In the meantime, why not give Doublade a whirl?

Also, to clarify, assuming the extra mons are implemented there won't be a new ladder. Instead, we'll add an "Experimental Viability Ranking" to the spreadsheet, which'll list the new additions on there. The current meta will still remain the standard, with this being relegated to a side meta role as implied by the "Experimental" description.
 

Eve

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Yeah, it seems the response to the Aegislash question is about what I was expecting. I myself am fairly confident it's too OP and that the meta changes help it far more than they hamper it. At this point, I'm just waiting for Ezaphs to give the green light to a quickban. In the meantime, why not give Doublade a whirl?

Also, to clarify, assuming the extra mons are implemented there won't be a new ladder. Instead, we'll add an "Experimental Viability Ranking" to the spreadsheet, which'll list the new additions on there. The current meta will still remain the standard, with this being relegated to a side meta role as implied by the "Experimental" description.
Aegislash is quickbanned! That mon is dumb. I've had enough of my TR getting bodied by it.

I think the best way to go about experimental mons is to have people post "submissions" for them- this includes provided movepools, stats and anything else not already known about the Pokemon. HP stats must be able to match with any seen in game footage or screenshots- given the several times we've seen Duraludon it's also safe to assume it has Base 80 HP, so that's what we'll go with for all submissions on that one. Remember to justify your submissions, and also don't go insane- it's probably better to have the mon be niche than all of them being overpowered!
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Lemme give this submission thing a whirl rq before I head off to sleep

image.jpg

60 / 125 / 125 / 58 / 92 / 60 or 50 (520 or 510 BST)
Farfetch'd Movepool + Bulk Up, Close Combat, Focus Blast, Sacred Sword, Superpower
Compatible with Stick

From the outset, screenshots show Sirfetch'd's HP isn't much better than base Farfetch'd. Meanwhile, its weight and Flying type loss seem to imply very little speed gain, if not a drop. The stats are what can be expected from this + its physiology, and its moves are standard Fighting fare aside from Sacred Sword, which the design explains well enough.

image.jpg

88 / 120 / 81 / 50 / 81 / 110 (530 BST)
Linoone Movepool + Dark Pulse, Night Slash, Sucker Punch, Taunt, -Belly Drum, Extreme Speed

BST is derived from mons with pre-evos with BST around Linoone's level like Walrein, Aggron and the Alola starters. Moves are normal dark stuff aside from Knock Off b/c no tutors yet, and I doubt it'll get either Belly Drum or Espeed for balancing reasons, especially not the latter.

Image result for duraludon sprite
(ignore extra mons this was only decent sized sprite I could find)
Duraludon
75 / 50 / 90 / 131 / 64 / 75 (485 BST)
Dialga's Movepool - Ancient Power, Aura Sphere, Blizzard, Brick Break, Bulk Up, Earth Power, Hyper Voice, Ice Beam, Overheat, Power Gem, Roar of Time, Stealth Rock, Thunderbolt, Thunder, +Autotomize, Metal Claw, Steel Beam
Steel Beam: 140 BP Special Steel Mind Blown clone

HP, SpA and Speed are estimated from screenshots and battle footage. BST is the same as Drampa, Druddigon and Turtonator, and movepool can be inferred from its Steel/Dragon status.
 
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image.jpg

Sirfetch'd
62 / 135 / 100 / 68 / 72 / 60 (497 BST)
Steadfast / Defiant
+Bulk Up, Sacred Sword, Earthquake, Meteor Assault
Meteor Assault: Fighting, Physical, 160 BP, 100% Acc, 10 PP (16 max), user must rest on the next turn

I don't see this mon getting CC, unfortunately. I do definitely see it getting Earthquake, though. Keeping Speed low under the same principle as Yung Dramps. I think its Attack will be higher, though: at least Escavalier level, if not more.

image.jpg

Obstagoon
93 / 130 / 81 / 65 / 81 / 80 (530 BST)
Reckless / Guts / Adaptability
+Swords Dance, Dark Pulse, Night Slash, Sucker Punch, Taunt, Knock Off, Obstruct; -Belly Drum, Extreme Speed
Obstruct: Dark, Status, 100% Acc, 5 PP (8 max), +4 priority, user protects itself from damage. When attacked, inflicts 1.3x damage that would've been taken onto the attacker. Chances of failing rises as it's used in succession

Speed is absolutely dropping on this one, in exchange for decent to great everything else. Incineroar gets SD so this thing does too. Everything about this mon screams Knock Off, so I'm assuming it will be a level-up move. Obstruct is interesting but I can't imagine it will be very useful. I'm guessing that Goon is going to keep both Bdrum and Espeed, just because it still makes sense flavor-wise. But I'm taking it off anyway, cuz it's bullshit.
 
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Famitsu has showcased some artwork for Galarian Ponyta. We don't know its type yet but Ponyta has a new ability called Pastel Veil, which prevents it and the ally from being poisoned, and can cure it if a Poisoned ally switches in. Unless Galarian Rapidash happens to be bulkier than its regular counterpart, that doesn't sound useful. And in Doubles, Max Moonfall can generate Misty Terrain to prevent all status from occurring, thus making Pastel Veil less useful in most situations.

EDIT: It's pure Psychic-type.
 
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