Metagame Sword and Shield CAP Metagame Discussion

shnowshner

You've Gotta Try
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Books def a bit too strong IMO but they also have a pretty important place in the metagame and I think it'd be best to identify the good things both provide while cutting off anything that feels too overbearing or cheap.

There's a boatload of angles to approach this question from and I don't think there's a necessarily wrong route to take, yet that shouldn't stop us from pursuing the best option available.

Anyway I would've posted sooner but wanted a better way of organizing my thoughts, so check out this really cool and opinionated spreadsheet file I've been working on that goes into a bit of depth on where things are with these two right now. I don't consider either as unmanageable from a teambuilding perspective, but I do think both have a tendency to get out-of-hand if just one or two things go wrong during a match, moreso for Prologue, and limiting their capability to gain advantage or just making them less threatening as a whole is a good way forward.

Keep in mind I've played a grand total of maybe 10 SS CAP games this months (reblog if ur burnt out of ss), so I'm mostly basing this off experience and having watched every SS game in CAPPL, along with word-of-mouth. Bottom line is it'd be a waste to leave these untouched when the general mood around them is discontent, and I'd love to end up with a generation where all our recent CAPs contribute more to the game than they take away.
 

spoo

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I think EBook's position right now is hard to make heads or tails of. People's opinions of it tend to heavily lean one way or the other in my experience; between BB recoil, a weakness to rocks, sometimes further cutting its HP with substitute, and really limited OHKO power, it often seems like its turns are more often spent setting up and clicking Roost than ever actually attacking. Coupled with the fact that a bunch of the upper tiers outspeed and threaten it – Weav, Dragapult, Volt Koko, Tornadus-T, etc – it can be an easy mon to dismiss. On the other hand, setup with Tinted Lens BB feels straight unfair at times, and many of its "paper checks" (excuse the pun) fall flat in game. Whether this means landing one Gunk poison on Zapdos, SubCoil beating Ferrothorn, defense raises allowing you to beat Melmetal/Weavile, PP stalling Skarmory behind a sub (or just critting it), +1 BB -> +0 BB having a roll to break Toxapex (or get rocks up), etc... well, it's surprising how little is actually safe vs it, with a lot of stuff like Zapdos and certain Steels being set-dependent answers. It's not like it has a shortage of entry opportunities, either, being able to hard switch into mons like Lando/Clef/Corv/Argh/Kartana if rocks aren't up. Personally I lean towards it being slightly overtuned still, though as I said, I think it's a trickier case.


The much more clear-cut mon in my opinion is Base Venomicon. IMO this is the #1 issue with SS CAP by no small margin after the Pyroak nerf. It has almost single-handedly made teambuilding a huge headache with its checks being so few in numbers, leading to a lot of tournament squads being outright bad vs it. Whether this is due to intentional negligence – "my opponent won't bring it" – or is a slip of the mind in the builder, I can't say. For example though:

Screen Shot 2022-09-02 at 12.43.54 PM.png

atrax madara vs baloor w1
TrickScarf Fini and Encore Astrolotl is the main Book counterplay here; the former is far from reliable for obvious reasons, and while the latter is way better than having nothing, you're still in a poor position if Venom attacks as Astro switches in. There might not be an abundance of setup opportunities with other teammates like SD camel pressuring Venom quite well, but depending on the unrevealed Melmetal and Chomp sets, it's more than possible to find good turns – having no Knock Off user also helps Book's case a lot in this matchup.

Screen Shot 2022-09-02 at 12.44.28 PM.png
clean vs ikaishi w1

The SD camel, Air Balloon Heatran, and Taunt Tornadus-T will help a little against Venom but ultimately not enough; counterplay looks shaky at best to me, likely resorting to sacking Koko for ~70% of Venom's health and trying not to let it Roost up again for free.

Screen Shot 2022-09-02 at 12.44.47 PM.png

tnm vs rsq w3
Another team that relies on a faster Encore user to keep Book in check, this time as a Colossoil. Being able to slow pivot Colo in with Corviknight is extremely useful and probably works long enough for you to secure an advantage, so the matchup looks playable enough; though, just the fact that this team needs to run Encore Colossoil is telling of the awkward choices Venom can force in the builder (hell, I've used Imprison Venom as an answer before), and in a more drawn out game, Encore's 8 PP may not be cutting it.

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crying vs micaiah w3
Non-AV Future Sight Slowking (+2 cane 2hkos) is about all that crying can use to pressure Venom here, maybe being able to get a big Knock Off with LO Kartana early and keeping it low with rocks; probably one of the scarier Venom matchups out of the few I've listed.

Screen Shot 2022-09-02 at 12.45.46 PM.png

potatochan vs tnm w5
This was a team I built for potatochan week 5, and unfortunately I couldn't get the concept to work while still being safe against Venom. We were pretty sure TNM wouldn't load it, though, and rolled with it anyways. Sometimes this works out, and it isn't a horrible strategy in tournament play, but you know that you're always rolling the dice by willingly sacking the matchup against one of the tier's best winconditions. Flatly though, if every team in the metagame was truly well-prepared against Venom, I think we would witness an extraordinary drop off in team diversity because of how small its pool of checks is. Way too many builds/concepts simply cannot be safe against it and either have to be scrapped or loaded with a lot of risk, and it's extremely frustrating to face that dilemma between creative freedom and being fully prepared.

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atha vs snaga w4
This was also a team I built that the Crawlers ended up using twice I believe; there's no explicit hard check to Venom here, instead relying on a combination of Encore Astro, SD camel, and Volt Koko to outplay as best as possible. As quz already said, despite the team carrying a number of mons that theoretically pressure Venom well, Venom is frighteningly good at still threatening to win the game outright. This kind of gets at the heart of the issue – Venom as a pokemon demands reactive as opposed to proactive counterplay. While you can often answer something like Venom-E by keeping up momentum and suffocating it out of the match, asking the same for base Venom is a tall order; realistically, without a dedicated answer that can reliably and repeatably switch in and force Venom out (which this team doesn't exactly have), you're in a tough position. And the number of Pokemon that can accomplish this is just too low right now.
---
I'm not implying that these teams are all 6-0s waiting to happen; moreso that even in "top-level play" we see teams either purposefully or accidentally forgoing checks because of how inherently difficult it is to answer, and the suboptimal choices it can force you to make in the builder or in-game (encore on random mons, desperately sacking something like koko to force it out, etc) are often more than enough to win without a full sweep.

While Saharaja's release arguably made Venom worse, i.e. one of its most common setup opportunies (Lando) is less common & SD Raja can threaten it quite well, it's also forced some other changes that are to its benefit. Notably, Rotom-W lost almost any reason to run Nasty Plot or Thunder Wave sets; Slowking-G got worse as a whole; Astrolotl has more reason than ever to drop Encore for Wisp; Argh and offensive Grasses (huge bait) are rising in usage.

Now, Book is far from the best mon in the tier; it's still only A rank and certainly has its limits. Hurricane is a silly move that holds Venom back from real consistency, and one of its better checks in Zapdos is the strongest it's been in a long while. There are some matchups where Venom can never do anything because it's stonewalled by a healthy Zapdos/Slowking-G, is too busy fulfilling defensive duties to ever set up, gets Knocked and vortexed on, etc. (Though there are also games where you score one timely confusion on Zapdos and immediately win). But the constraint it has in the builder alone is enough to warrant action to me. Venom is in as good of a position as ever and I think time has only proven that it should have been nerfed months ago.
 

dex

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Venomicon-E is the much larger issue at hand than Venomicon. Here is why:

Venomicon is, undoubtedly, excellent at winning matchups it really shouldn't; it sort of acts like a slow Blaziken in that regard. Its snowballing potential, between its powerful Hurricane and Stamina, is pretty sick. However, it can be offensively pressured by a number of mons; the introduction of Saharaja into the tier has greatly eased building with answers to it. Now, Saharaja alone does not stop it from doing what it wants, but it does help. The combination of offensive checks to it being prevalent and its reliance on Hurricane I think leaves it in a fine but not great state. While I don't think any changes to it are completely necessary, it would be ok to see a smaller nerf, most likely in the form of removing Earth Power.

Venomicon-E is, in fact, the bigger problem. The posts above mention that there is abundant offensive counterplay to Venomicon-E, holding it back from being truly broken. While that is partially true, that does not affect Venomicon-E as much as you would think. As has been seen throughout CAPPL, Venomicon-E offense has taken a backseat to Venomicon-E hyper offense due to the fact that it can't usually flat sweep anymore without Swords Dance. However, what it does do incredibly well, is wallbreak. More specifically, Venomicon-E is, for all intents and purposes, the absolute perfect partner for Cawmodore on HO. Their defensive checks line up almost perfectly, letting Venomicon-E, which has no intention of sweeping, easily open the door for Cawmodore to sweep. It is incredibly limiting to build with multiple defensive counters to both. Venomicon-E is what needs to be looked at more. The fact that it is more easily offensively checked does not matter as much to it as it does to other fast Pokemon. Venomicon-E, from the onset of a match, has no intention of ever sweeping. Its job is purely to break the game open and die (it literally does Plasmanta's concept way better than Plasmanta ever could). Nerfing Venomicon-E is difficult, however. I'm not sure if removing set-up is the right way, but that is probably the first thing to look at.
 

Baloor

Tigers Management
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Post CAPPLE Loor Takes Lightning Round

The Books

Clumping them together because what im going to say is a just a general statement on both of them. In their current state I find both of these guys more than manageable in game, however, that doesn't mean they aren't unhealthy. My single biggest issue with this meta is how over prepared you have to come for both of them (they share similar but different ish checks lol). It can make building sometimes really cancer. Found myself scrapping a lot of ideas in CAPPL due to matchup into these guys alone despite the teams having no other actual problems. They bring a very offensive over-centralizing to building that should be dealt with a nerf. fwiw my opinion on the both of them is; Veno-E tends to be more stressful in builder than normal Veno but normal veno tends to be more consistent on most builds unless its pretty offensively orientated.

Saharaja

This dude is lowkey broken. Insane utility mon that defensively soft checks everything in the tier defensively that can also snowball and sometimes auto win? It has some more reliable forms of counterplay that aren't as demanding in builder than the books so its not as obvious but frankly I think he does way too much right now. Stat adjustment probably makes sense for this guy since you don't really wanna remove its main niche in rapid spin (why does it learn this) could also probably drop some random utility shit like thunder wave (why does a camel have this)

Spikes BO / Balances

This is the strongest playstyle in the tier right now. I personally prefer arghonaut over other setters due to being defensively insane but ferro astro also work. Astro and Raja being popular removals really benefits the playstyle as you can knock these guys and overwhelm them pretty easily. I also really like ghost types like pult on this type of build due to libra and raja clicking spin a lot. did i mention arghonaut is fucking insane, this dude is unkillable i swear.

Astrolotl

I love the design of this guy to death, hes so cute but i have a few comments about him. In semis before I eventually subbed out i was trying out a lot of astro builds. I feel his current place on the VR is overselling him a bit. He does whats advertised, the ultimate utility mon but that also has its flaws. I feel astro builds tend to really lean on astro to glue it together but he can get overwhelmed a lot due to how offensive the meta is, and with saharaja just coming out, i feel astro tends to not get a lot of room to breathe and to do his typical gameplan atm. Good mon still but not as safe as A+ might suggest.

HO (Veil / Strata / TW / 4v4 etc...)

All this cheese strat shit is very strong here. Tons of options to take advantage of and I swear i was finding something new every day. this is part of the reason i feel argho is so strong because its so no nonsense into these builds and can force a playable matchup just for existing.

Cawm

this guy is silly and i can understand why playing vs it is a cap rite of passage. mentioning this outside of the ho comment mostly because i wouldnt be opposed to slight adjustment. forces a lot of games to be game planned around it (similar vein to leki in ssou) which can be catastrophic in some scenarios when you play agaisnt a game and something that has similar counterplay, this is why the bird spam ho strats are so strong. this is kinda a lol new cap guy take but it does feel like one missplay vs cawm and your entire game goes to shit real fast.

Stall

With argho being such a strong mon it shocked me that in my attempts in using stall and seeing it used in the tour, its not actually a good playstyle as it stands. Sure I lost to it, but I also brought 0 breakers. I think this stems from just how strong a lot of the mons in this tier are where you cant get away with giga passive builds. There might be some exploring still because I feel the stall build attempts are just recreating ssou stall teams

Cyclohm / Kitsu / Naviathan / Jumbao / Scylant / Crucibelle / Revk

Just listing some of the caps I tested out a bit thanks to fog mostly lol. I feel all of these guys are pretty underrated currently and deserve some more exploring.
 
So some friends and I were looking into CAP for the first time in a while, and one of them said that "Necturna had been nerfed and couldn't use Sketch anymore". As far as I had known, it wasn't able to Sketch 8th gen moves due to Sketch not existing in SwSh, but old-gen moves were still fair game (provided Necturna Clause was still followed).
Which is true?
 

SHSP

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So some friends and I were looking into CAP for the first time in a while, and one of them said that "Necturna had been nerfed and couldn't use Sketch anymore". As far as I had known, it wasn't able to Sketch 8th gen moves due to Sketch not existing in SwSh, but old-gen moves were still fair game (provided Necturna Clause was still followed).
Which is true?
You've got it right, Nect can still sketch one move from pre-gen 8. It can't use gen8 moves, moves that don't exist in Gen 8 such as Tail Glow, and it can't use Sketch itself in-game. For future smaller questions like this, use this thread- https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/simple-questions-simple-answers.3647171/
 

Brambane

protect the wetlands
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For the majority of my time playing Gen8 CAP, the status quo for high-caliber CAP teams where builds with only 1 or 2 CAPs, if any. There was an old meme back on Meras for CAPPL that "the best CAP teams don't have any CAPs on them." This is hyperbolic, but speaks to the state of metagame, knowledge/perspectives of the playerbase, and relative power of CAPs at the time. CAPPL was a big part of this development (which despite being a manager, I ended up swamped IRL so I didn't get to play as much as the meta as I wanted :blobsad:)

In the days leading up to the send-off tour, and really at the tail-end of this CAPPL , the first "CAP heavy" metagame seems to be emerging. I don't think we live in a world where any user except poopidoopi can pull off 6 CAP teams, but teams with 3 or 4 CAPs are much more standard. To fathom a guess why, the accretion of small changes happening in OU, role-compressing utility CAPs like Saharaja, HO favorable CAPs like Pyroak and Cawmodore, and anti-metagame CAPs like Arghonaut and Statagem have all come together for a perfect CAP-favored habitat. I can't think of a time in Gen 8 where so many CAPs felt on the higher end of viable.

Arghonaut's brief vacation during the Scholastic Book Fair ™ is over and the game's greatest Weavile and Tyranitar answer has found its place on teams again. This mon just saves you a lot of headscratching in the builder with its no-nonsense response to top threats and ability to force Knock Off onto mons like Torn-T, Venomicon-P and Zapdos. Arghonaut is also kind of techy; with 110 Attack and good natural bulk, Arghonaut can play a bit of a breaker/wall hybrid similar to Buzzwole with Future Sight support. I don't expect this to the new hot thing, but in high-stakes tournaments like the send-off being able to surprise CM Clef with a comfortable Gunk Shot 2HKO has its place on teams.

Despite an Arghonaut resurgence, Syclant seems to be in a pretty good place. Mountaineer lets it switch in on Diamond Storm and threaten Saharaja with its Ice STAB. It's Speed makes it a reliable response to Ebook and puts Torn-T on edge. It remains a great momentum Pokemon and a solid Choice item user. I am also a fan of Protective Pads; being able to go unpunished for clicking U-turn and Triple Axel against Ferrothorn and Zapdos is delightful. It's also a surprisingly good Spiker due to its ability to force switches. This Pokemon has a lot of flexibility and plays a bit like a Weavile that doesn't have to try to double against an Arghonaut switch-in.

Pyroak's nerf and a somewhat more hostile metagame has slowed down this freight train of of a sweeper, but not stopped it. Ferrothorn remains absolute Pyroak food and it can brute force through most physical attackers without much issue. The SpDef nerf feels like Pyroak now consistently gets only 1 or 2 KOs a game instead of 3 (if not winning outright.) May SpDef Argh, Toxic Protect Garchomp, bulky Torn-T, Beamers and FlySpam HO continue to grace your builder.

Equilibra's return to Bulletproof means an already rising Pokemon now has even more teams it fits on! I expect to see a lot of Equilibra floating around. Or not floating around, as case may be.

Astrolotl is still great. Perhaps not quite as dominant as before, but there is always a place for the master of offensive utility and customization. From Scarf Healing Wish (the Cawmodore/Pult/Weav revenge killer!) to Defog to TWave to Encore, there is almost always a way to fit Astrolotl on a team aside from like rain and sun lol. It might not be the BEST Pokemon for its teamslot, but it will bring something valuable to the table anyways.

New blood for the send-off tour brought Guts users with them. Colossoil and Naviathan haven't been top threats for a while, and they likely still aren't, but the amount of power these two bring to a team cannot be denied. Colossoil seems exceptionally potent on the double Ground builds for its ability to midground well with Guts boosted Facade and Knock Off. I would definitely be wary of these two and prep accordingly.

Beamers aren't the craze like a few months ago, but they still work and Stratagem continues to fit on offense because of it. It's Speed and coverage make it a great anti-metagame Pokemon that doesn't need to pop its Beam to be a useful offensive threat. Offensive teams appreciate a Pokemon that can revenge kill or pressure Weavile, Venomicon-E, and the slowly reviving NP Torn-T. Levitate and Grass coverage lets it shoehorn into a reasonable Saharaja check, although it has to be wary of the AV Horn Leech set which has picked up traction with newcomers to the tier.

Venomicon-P and Venomicon-E are dominant forces, although we will have to see how they fair post-nerf. No team is "fully" prepped for these two as they stand; read this thread the see why. And with FlySpam HO a thing alongside Veil, Cawmodore continues to prey upon the unprepared and its counters weakened by books, Moltres-G, or even honorary bird Kartana.

Saharaja has put on the vest; while not the explosive sweeper like Swords Dance, it takes pittance from most special attackers, trades well with Arghonaut and other camels thanks to Horn Leech, and can get Rapid Spin off pretty consistently. Otherwise, the camel continues to be one of the best Swords Dance users and spinners in the format. We will see if it can keep that up after its PPL changes.

And there are plenty of other CAPs that have their niche uses on teams. Cyclohm's unique place as a physically bulky Electric-type with Heal Bell and/or Ice-type coverage cannot be replicated by any other Pokemon. Fidgit continues to rock unique Speed control with Trick Room and Tailwind. Aurumoth remains a inconsistent offensive presence, but absolutely devastating when it hits the mark. Revenankh is in a similar boat; once dominant, the return of Argh in addition to Books make balance and HO more hostile to it than ever. If the now active (and more competitive!) ladder is any indicator, Jumbao seems to be picking up some use again on teams that can "confidently" deal with Glowking and books... and sun teams for better or worse. And of course whenever the ladder is active, Snaelstrom comes out of its shell to get smacked around.

Krilowatt seems to have completely fallen out of favor, and I don't miss it. Fuck Krilowatt go back to BDSP.
 
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shnowshner

You've Gotta Try
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So it's been a bit since we decided on the Venomicon nerfs, and though we're still very early in the period of implementation, I have been looking at what mons would benefit most from these two being knocked down a fair bit. I've come to realize that perhaps the biggest nerf to Epilogue is that Prologue was also nerfed, and this has broadly effected how you cover for these two Pokemon.

Just as an example, running PhysDef Flame Body Heatran was a good way to pressure Epilogue, being immune to Gunk Shot and threatening a Burn in response to Brave Bird, but Prologue's Earth Power could easily dispatch Heatran. If you wanted better odds against Prologue, you'd run an offensive Air Balloon set – which was much easier for Epilogue to bust through unscathed. Now, you can run defensive Heatran as an Epilogue check/pressure, and still match up very strong into Prologue.

Having more condensed checks for these two is honestly a massive improvement for dealing with them, since their typing generally means using similar mons to handle them, but their approach to breaking teams is completely different. Now, finding something that can reasonably handle both at once is reasonably achievable. It was following this train of thought that I looked to Magnezone in particular: it's quad-resistance to Flying and Poison Immunity was obviously appealing before, but it fell under the same trap many prior "Venomicon checks" fell under, which was that, while good against the one form, it wasn't safe from the other. Earth Power, and the backup Mystical Fire, both threatened it from Prologue, and in some far-future scenario I wouldn't even be surprised if Epilogue ran it solely for this matchup. In this post-coverage world we live in, Magnezone looks like Venomicon's worst shared nightmare.

First of all there's this treat of a calc:

252 Atk Vile Vial Tinted Lens Venomicon-Epilogue Brave Bird vs. 132 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 64-76 (20.3 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Seriously, there is nothing else in the entire meta that can just, live Epilogue Brave Bird this easily. It'd be a miracle if it weren't obvious game mechanics. Here's another epic calc you may already know about:

0 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Venomicon: 188-224 (50.2 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I cannot tell you how happy this makes me. It's such a perfect damage threshold even if you could get by with a 50% chance.

Now this isn't to say Magnezone isn't still flawed: I'm talking about a Pokemon that's been defined entirely by trapping Steel types and then hoping it might contribute afterwards. Sure, SS CAP has no shortage of good Steels, and the Body Press set is fairly good at dealing with them no matter how scuffed it is compared to clicking the Hidden Power Fire button of old. Electric/Steel is pretty poor coverage, however, and Body Press doesn't exactly help much unless you've already boosted to +6 or something. Still, Prologue's nerf gives the mon more of a defined purpose: having a Pokemon that can eliminate or force damage onto the likes of Ferrothorn, Corviknight, Melmetal, and so on, while also being a pretty strong switch-in to the books, is a good niche to have.

With Magnezone looking more valuable, I then asked, what mons appreciate having a teammate that can break down Steels and comes in rather freely into Venomicon? And it was with this question I realized that CAP's favorite bullying target might make a small resurgence, and that mon is none other than Rillaboom. It languishing in B-rank doesn't really sell the situation IMO: this mon is genuinely such a pain to use in CAP. It's got most of the normal setbacks: Steel-types, Flying-types, Buzzwole, but now introduce Astrolotl, Venomicon, Pyroak, even Cawmodore into the mix. Locking into a Grass-type move is a massive pain. This mon really struggles to fit into the metagame when it gets abused at every angle, and inviting in both Venoms would often spell disaster for Rilla and its team. Despite being B-rank, any discussion on it sounded as if you were talking of a D-rank mon, in theory usable but no one is brave enough to dare.

I've done some rudimentary testing and found that Rillaboom + Magnezone feels quite solid and having this general Venomicon answer significantly reduces the threatload Rillaboom faces when it wants to go for a move. This wasn't really possible when Venomicon's Earth Power simply removed Magnezone from existence, but now that Earth Power itself has been removed this looks like a promising core to work off of, and as is true in OU play, once you KO or weaken Rillaboom's major roadblocks, the monkey claims.

I decided to slap this alongside a Sand core since Excadrill likes having Corviknight removed and Rillaboom can threaten Rotom well enough, and the team's done decently in tests despite being rough around the edges. I have no doubt that a more solid team structure could make this duo work, as the fundamentals behind it are pretty sound. Body Press Venomicon might become an issue if that picks up as a popular anti-Steel option, but then it's running Body Press and you might have something else that deals with it better as a result.

There's almost certainly more that's going to rise in popularity following these changes, and we've yet to really see how Miasmaw fares with its new lease on life, but already I can see the start of significant metagame shifts following the Venomicon nerf solely based on the fact that I actively wanted to use Rillaboom in CAP.
 

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