SV UU Metagame Discussion (Pre-Home)

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Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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Let's make things a bit more organised! Instead of using the current NP thread as a metagame discussion thread, we're gonna use this thread from now on. This should let us focus more on the things we're suspecting when those have their relevant threads while also making it more reasonable for people to post about whatever they're finding cool right now in here!

Some resources for your convenience:
Sample Teams
Viability Rankings
Simple Questions, Simple Answers
UU Updates

Happy posting!
 
How do you feel about the new addition of Gren to the tier? I think it can do great things here since it can fill many roles with its insane movepool and insane speed.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
I think
How do you feel about the new addition of Gren to the tier? I think it can do great things here since it can fill many roles with its insane movepool and insane speed.
Speaking as someone who doesn’t often build with Greninja, I think it’s offenses are very hard to deal with. The most threatening set to my teams are Choice specs Surf/Hydro + Grass Knot + Ice Beam + Uturn.

The reason I think this is so good is because Choice Specs works well with the very nerfed Protean and it has pretty much perfect neutral coverage. Ice Beam is surprisingly spammable if the opponent lacks Tinkaton, even spdef Gastro and Scream Tail hate taking it because the freeze chance and Gastro also has low pp recovery this gen. Of course there’s Blissey but she’s only used on stall right now.

I really don’t think Dark pulse is good on Greninja, I just don’t see what it does apart from flinches.

Back to specs though - the important thing for me is that it threatens to OHKO a ton of good defensive/ bulky Pokemon - gastro, hippo, and salamence are the most notable ones. It also threatens to ohko even more offensive pokemon. combined with the fact that nothing really switches into it well, this makes greninja a guessing game to me often (although tera water scream tail can own it by the way because of low weight).

Anyways I’m not screaming it’s broken, but this is just my thoughts as you asked for thoughts
 
How do you feel about the new addition of Gren to the tier? I think it can do great things here since it can fill many roles with its insane movepool and insane speed.
Stat checked by fairies gg noob gren

But not to make this a one liner I wonder when quaq is going to see some tiering action if any seems like a really polarizing mon currently especially with the cb rain stuff just forcing terrible endgames when rain is already such an dominant force in the meta
 
I agree with pokemonisfun on Specs Greninja with Pump/Beam/Knot/U-Turn (or Spikes) being its best set, but max special attack with Life Orb might be just as good. Water/Ice/Grass is just fantastic coverage that hits the entire tier, so switching your moves massively eases predictions against common cores used to check Specs Gren like Gastro + Wo-Chien. However, you must always run Spikes over U-Turn on Life Orb sets since you struggle to break through special walls neutrally and the recoil is not worth the tiny chip + momentum in the long run. Luckily, most of the special walls don't have hazard removal, while the ones that do cannot really do it safely.

Dark Pulse is overrated on special sets unless you are really weak to the teapot. It's decent on mixed sets since it complements Gunk Shot nicely, and you can make way more use of flinch hax with Gunk Shot poisons, but mixed sets hits like a paperbag, especially with having to split attack investments and possibly not getting the correct Protean type. I only advice mixed sets if you really want instant pressure against Fairy types. If not, then Pump/hazards/U-Turn is enough to pressure them over time.
 

Adaam

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Dark Pulse is a strong mid-ground move to click. Without it I find myself in a lot of weird 50/50s when I just want to get good progress. An example is Gren in vs Scizor with a Gastro in the back. If you drop pulse you lose huge momentum if you Surf the Gastro or GK the Sciz (you prob just die this turn too). Other stuff it’s nice for is picking off Salamence without changing to Ice type and being forced out by Sciz next turn, actually damaging Ghost Wo Chi Minh, and sick flinches

Just my two cents
 

Melt Gibson

planting gardens in the potholes
is a Forum Moderator
post about things i have been doing and feeling in the current scarlet and violet underused metagame

:pelipper: :tauros-paldea-aqua:
Been trying these two, specifically together, and holy shit the offensive pressure they create is just genuinely cruel. You ever seen Gyarados take 73% from a resisted hit? Would you like to? Perfect accuracy Hurricanes, rain boosted Surf/Hydro Pump/ Wave Crash/Aqua Jet, and you still have four in the back to cover the holes. You can build this into a Rain team if you want but I honestly think it's better if you don't since it opens up a lot more avenues in terms of your support options. Not much more to say, I just think they're neat and honestly feel a lot closer to what a lot of people say Rain is like.

:greninja:
My two cents on the discussion about what moves this thing should be slotting is that Dark Pulse is like, mandatory. I feel like Grass Knot never does quite enough damage to Slowbro between the 80 BP and 103 SpA. It also allows you an emergency Ghost resist and gives you a better way of forcing progress compared to rolling for Ice Beam freezes. Lets you hit Decidueye and Brambleghast as well without having to turn into a shitty defensive typing, in addition to giving you a better chance of not eating shit if for whatever reason you don't snag the kill. Dual STABs + Ice Beam is the way to go I think.

:scream tail: :alomomola:
Had a debate in the UU room on which one of these is the better Wish passer and I think Scream is ahead by a decent margin. Easier to fit on teams, fast, very annoying to force progress against (Alom is too, but not quite as much so IMO), and a Dragon immunity (!) all really help its case here. I also just feel really awkward trying to put Alomomola on anything I build, I just feel like unless you're playing stall/semi-stall/really slow balance then it just ends up being a momentum sink that goes nowhere or otherwise has its role filled better by a different bulky Water. I will admit it does have the benefit of not doubling upon fat Psychics and filling the role of Scream and Slowbro at the same time though. Is it just not my speed? I think that might be the case here.

:bisharp:
I think this thing is really bad. Between the bulls, Quaquaval, Hippowdon, PsyTerrain, and more and more fat by the minute, it's just so impossibly hard to slot this onto teams. Competition as an offensive Dark is tight, now having to go up against Greninja in addition to Iron Jugulis, Tyranitar, and Lokix, and you... kinda lose to all of them. Magnezone is surging in usage right now and it turns you into a fine red mist. I saw Easter Bliss had a set they came up with that was Pressure RestTalk stall, but I still have my doubts about it. I genuinely struggle to see what Bisharp's place in the metagame is right now.
 
So I see Dragalge got ranked on the VR? What are the structures it slides into? Is it just fairy + magnezone or is their a broader scope for it as a wallbreaker?
 
So I see Dragalge got ranked on the VR? What are the structures it slides into? Is it just fairy + magnezone or is their a broader scope for it as a wallbreaker?
Dragalge does pretty much require magnezone support but in general it's rare to see it on the cm fairy + zone structures. The main role dragalge has is setting t spikes although even though it generally runs leftovers it's still very difficult to switch in on without tinkaton. You don't see it much with cm fairies largely because tspikes aren't really helping them win faster/easier and you end up having to fit two slower pokemon who are lacking in synergy. With that said scream tail is a solid partner for dragagle, providing wish support while also benefitting from tinkaton getting trapped without having some of the drawbacks of sylveon and florges. Overall though dragalge + zone functions pretty independently from other magnezone structures while having a solid place in the metagame.
 

Melt Gibson

planting gardens in the potholes
is a Forum Moderator
So I see Dragalge got ranked on the VR? What are the structures it slides into? Is it just fairy + magnezone or is their a broader scope for it as a wallbreaker?
See Liz's post above, but it also fits on structures that use Hex Gengar since it adds another huge special breaker while also offering TSpikes support to free up a slot on Gengar. The threat of eating an Adaptability Draco Meteor makes it very effective at getting a free layer and just immediately fucking off.
 
The Current State of SV UU

Following the dnb result on sandy shocks I wanted to talk a bit about the current state of the tier, because I feel there are several issues at the moment. I know that with home coming soon many people feel that tiering action between now and then is unnecessary as it may have to be reversed after, but I still wanted to talk about some of the issues this tier has and hopefully it at least helps people organise their thoughts on what the biggest problems are now and what our priorities should be in a post home landscape if the meta stabilises to something similar.

1. Psychic Terrain
I don't have a major problem with the existence of terrain teams in general, however I feel that they are currently much too strong for what they are. In terms of pokemon bans, I think polteageist and hawlucha are both somewhat overpowered, and I actually feel more strongly about hawlucha being banworthy than polteageist. Hawlucha at +2 is nightmarish to deal with, its counterplay is so shaky and depending on if it runs sub or taunt it can have completely different counterplay, although sub is generally preferred at the moment. Sub also allows it to fish for hax (hurricane misses, for example, hawlucha is actually favoured to dodge one) far too easily in my opinion. Finally, tera letting it avoid priority under psychic terrain while also allowing it to flip the script on its checks just feels completely insane atm. Polteageist in general feels more manageable, but it's probably far too easy for it to cheese certain mus. I'd also like to mention on terrain extender, which I saw Sirwings propose a ban on last night, which might be another way to nerf the style. Armarouge is also incredibly annoying in forcing certain mons not to attack unless they give it a free speed boost, although i feel its role is often more as an enabler of the style than an abuser which it makes it less banworthy in my opinion. Overall the main reason I list psychic terrain at the top here is that it will likely continue to exist in some capacity after home and the success of similar psyterrain teams in ou lends support to the idea that this style is simply too strong in uu, where defensive counterplay is far more limited.

2. Pelipper
The longer rain is in the tier the more I begin to feel that, similarly to psychic terrain, it's just too strong for what it is. The biggest problem in dealing with rain is it feels borderline impossible to account for both the physical sweepers in barraskewda and floatzel as well as the hurricane spammers (in particular specs iron jugulis) and to a lesser degree golduck. I honestly feel rain is a bigger problem than terrain in the current meta, but I view it as more likely to get new answers after home comes out and there's also a reasonable chance pelipper rises at some point.

3. Quaquaval/Gyarados/Scizor
It's hard to know how gyarados or quaquaval would fair in a post pokemon home uu but I think both are just way too polarising right now, quaquaval preys on so much of the meta and is way too difficult to deal with unless you have slowbro or a water immunity. With just water flying coverage gyarados can rip through most of the meta and it has no difficulty finding set up oppurtunities due to it's typing and bulk combined with intimidate. When it comes to scizor, I voted do not ban when this was being tested and I really feel that was a mistake in hindsight. If this mon gets roost with home as is rumoured then it just becomes even more versatile and probably has no place in the tier.

I'm sure there are things I missed here that other people feel strongly about but these are the most pressing issues in the tier in my opinion, I really hope we can see action on something here in the near future but I also understand if we hold off on anything else until home. I don't think the tier is all that bad at the moment in spite of its issues, it's just very match up fishy as a result of a lot of broken check broken interactions in my experience. Ultimately the last two suspect results feel like a result of that, where no one can really agree on which element is problematic and needs to be banned. I hope we can see more tiering surveys in the future which might help to determine what people feel most strongly about, as i definitely think we could've improved the tier by testing and potentially removing certain pokemon sooner, but I also appreciate that something like this could've seen gengar banned months ago, when over time the meta shifted to where I don't even think it's very good.

In conclusion for all its flaws this tier is fun for the most part and I'm looking forward to getting some new toys when home drops, Hopefully over the coming months it continues to improve until I don't need to make posts like this.
 

Monky25

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Been a looong time since I made a usage stats post, but with UU Open being the biggest individual UU tour of the year I couldn’t resist gathering usage stats to illustrate current meta trends for Round 2. I think there’s a fair amount to be said about these usage stats and I figured I would share my thoughts on some things that stood out to me. I also combined the multiple form Pokemon like Polteageist, Toxtricity, Florges, and Maushold since they’re basically the same Pokemon and tiered the same. I also merged the Indeedee since they’re also practically the same. Despite the large sample size, these stats aren’t perfect, as sample teams were used in a fair amount of games, but I still think they’re indicative of metagame trends for the most part and I think you’ll find that as well.

Round 2

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Sandy Shocks       |  127 |  35.28% |  53.54% |
| 2    | Tinkaton           |  122 |  33.89% |  53.28% |
| 3    | Scizor             |  119 |  33.06% |  47.06% |
| 4    | Talonflame         |  105 |  29.17% |  53.33% |
| 5    | Gastrodon          |   92 |  25.56% |  45.65% |
| 6    | Salamence          |   91 |  25.28% |  52.75% |
| 7    | Wo-Chien           |   87 |  24.17% |  52.87% |
| 8    | Tyranitar          |   71 |  19.72% |  47.89% |
| 9    | Cyclizar           |   66 |  18.33% |  63.64% |
| 10   | Hippowdon          |   65 |  18.06% |  55.38% |
| 11   | Quaquaval          |   63 |  17.50% |  36.51% |
| 12   | Slowbro            |   58 |  16.11% |  58.62% |
| 13   | Decidueye          |   55 |  15.28% |  45.45% |
| 14   | Iron Jugulis       |   53 |  14.72% |  41.51% |
| 15   | Scream Tail        |   42 |  11.67% |  47.62% |
| 16   | Alomomola          |   41 |  11.39% |  51.22% |
| 17   | Greninja           |   40 |  11.11% |  57.50% |
| 17   | Pelipper           |   40 |  11.11% |  30.00% |
| 19   | Gengar             |   35 |   9.72% |  51.43% |
| 19   | Quagsire           |   35 |   9.72% |  51.43% |
| 21   | Donphan            |   34 |   9.44% |  44.12% |
| 22   | Magnezone          |   33 |   9.17% |  51.52% |
| 23   | Tauros-Paldea-Aqua |   32 |   8.89% |  53.12% |
| 23   | Polteageist        |   32 |   8.06% |  55.17% |
| 25   | Hawlucha           |   28 |   7.78% |  60.71% |
| 25   | Indeedee-F         |   28 |   7.78% |  54.55% |
| 27   | Mimikyu            |   26 |   7.22% |  69.23% |
| 27   | Slither Wing       |   26 |   7.22% |  61.54% |
| 29   | Rotom-Heat         |   25 |   6.94% |  52.00% |
| 30   | Pawmot             |   24 |   6.67% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Haxorus            |   23 |   6.39% |  43.48% |
| 32   | Gardevoir          |   22 |   6.11% |  59.09% |
| 32   | Maushold           |   22 |   6.11% |  50.00% |
| 34   | Noivern            |   21 |   5.83% |  47.62% |
| 35   | Brambleghast       |   20 |   5.56% |  45.00% |
| 36   | Armarouge          |   19 |   5.28% |  68.42% |
| 36   | Gyarados           |   19 |   5.28% |  26.32% |
| 38   | Sylveon            |   18 |   5.00% |  55.56% |
| 38   | Kilowattrel        |   18 |   5.00% |  38.89% |
| 40   | Floatzel           |   17 |   4.72% |  35.29% |
| 41   | Florges            |   14 |   3.89% |  83.33% |
| 41   | Toxtricity         |   14 |   3.89% |  50.00% |
| 43   | Grafaiai           |   13 |   3.61% |  30.77% |
| 43   | Rotom-Mow          |   13 |   3.61% |  30.77% |
| 43   | Espeon             |   13 |   3.61% |  30.77% |
| 46   | Tauros-Paldea-Blaze |   11 |   3.06% |  36.36% |
| 46   | Hariyama           |   11 |   3.06% |  27.27% |
| 46   | Tsareena           |   11 |   3.06% |  18.18% |
| 49   | Gallade            |   10 |   2.78% |  70.00% |
| 49   | Lucario            |   10 |   2.78% |  60.00% |
| 51   | Blissey            |    9 |   2.50% |  55.56% |
| 51   | Oricorio-Pom-Pom   |    9 |   2.50% |  22.22% |
| 51   | Barraskewda        |    9 |   2.50% |  11.11% |
| 54   | Lycanroc-Dusk      |    8 |   2.22% |  87.50% |
| 54   | Bisharp            |    8 |   2.22% |  75.00% |
| 54   | Cloyster           |    8 |   2.22% |  62.50% |
| 54   | Dragalge           |    8 |   2.22% |  50.00% |
| 54   | Golduck            |    8 |   2.22% |  37.50% |
| 59   | Weavile            |    7 |   1.94% |  71.43% |
| 59   | Iron Thorns        |    7 |   1.94% |  71.43% |
| 61   | Lokix              |    6 |   1.67% |  16.67% |
| 61   | Forretress         |    6 |   1.67% |   0.00% |
| 63   | Ditto              |    5 |   1.39% |  60.00% |
| 63   | Tatsugiri          |    5 |   1.39% |  60.00% |
| 63   | Altaria            |    5 |   1.39% |  40.00% |
| 63   | Staraptor          |    5 |   1.39% |   0.00% |
| 67   | Brute Bonnet       |    4 |   1.11% |  50.00% |
| 67   | Coalossal          |    4 |   1.11% |  25.00% |
| 69   | Froslass           |    2 |   0.56% | 100.00% |
| 69   | Samurott           |    2 |   0.56% |  50.00% |
| 69   | Klefki             |    2 |   0.56% |  50.00% |
| 69   | Lycanroc           |    2 |   0.56% |  50.00% |
| 69   | Grimmsnarl         |    2 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 69   | Pincurchin         |    2 |   0.56% |   0.00% |
| 75   | Glaceon            |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 75   | Lilligant          |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 75   | Abomasnow          |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 75   | Cetitan            |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 75   | Farigiraf          |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 75   | Mudsdale           |    1 |   0.28% | 100.00% |
| 75   | Glimmet            |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 75   | Drednaw            |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 75   | Muk                |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 75   | Murkrow            |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 75   | Zoroark            |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 75   | Braviary           |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
| 75   | Flamigo            |    1 |   0.28% |   0.00% |
Some things that stood out to me include
:Gengar: Gengar was sitting at 19th place tied with Quagsire, which is certainly a sight to see considering there were calls to ban it for a long time this generation that didn’t really disappear until the drops. Speaking of the drops, Cyclizar, who currently is in a phenomenal 9th place, really hinders it as a faster, Shadow Ball deterrent. In the top 10 there are generally a lot of Pokemon that hinder Gengar a lot as well. Sandy is bulky enough to eat a Choice Specs Shadow Ball and KOes back, Tinkaton handles it, Talon is faster and picks off Gengar after some chip, Scizor revenge kills it, Gastrodon checks it, Salamence also takes a Sludge Bomb and can punish an Energy Ball, Wo-Chien deters Shadow Ball spam, same with Tyranitar although most sets are offensive, and Hippowdon also checks it well. Its lack of bulk requires a lot of support to get on the field, and while that may not be an issue with our plentiful pivots, it still has to predict properly every time or risk getting punished hard. Doesn’t help Scream Tail or Alomomola which are very common on basically any balance structure scouts the move with Protect as well, foes that Gengar would normally love to KO. Other sets lack the immediate raw power and are more difficult to pull off. Seeing Gengar this low is a surprise, but comparing its place in the metagame to everything above it it’s not hard to see why.
:Decidueye: I did not expect this Pokemon to be so high; I don’t use Decidueye too much and knew it was a good Pokemon but I was certainly surprised to see it above Pokemon like Iron Jugulis, Scream Tail, and Alomomola. After watching some games, however, I can get behind the hype. Useful defensive typing with valuable support in Knock Off and Defog, synergizing with common Pokemon like Hippowdon, Salamence, and Talonflame, and maintaining a good offensive presence all make Decidueye potent in the metagame right now. Most foes hate the combination of Leaf Storm + Knock Off, as without Wish support Tinkaton, Salamence, and Scizor can be worn down much easier without their items.
:Pawmot: Seeing an A+ ranked threat be this low certainly raises questions about its ranking. More of a topic for the VR thread, but I’ll still talk about it in this post. While potent, Pawmot lacks the raw splashability seen by Pokemon like Wo-Chien, Scizor, Talonflame, and Tinkaton. It's got a good Speed tier but gets run over by offense badly. One of the scariest Pokemon in the tier but also is pretty mid-high risk despite the very high reward.
:Gardevoir: and :Sylveon: If tiering was based on usage stats, both of these Pokemon would make UU by usage. Gardevoir is both a great Choice Specs and Choice Scarf user, taking the route of a very offensive Fairy-type to drop anything that isn’t a Tinkaton really when using specs or being a rare good Choice Scarf user. Mystical Fire is still an option for Tinkaton as well, meaning it doesn’t need Magnezone support. As for Sylveon, we all know what it does so I won’t repeat it again, but it making the cutoff while Florges did not is due to the sample teams featuring Sylveon. Both are basically the same though with minor differences, so both Sylveon and Florges alongside Gardevoir are shown to be becoming a part of the UU metagame.
Closing the post off, I’ll go the other way and show Pokemon that would not be UU by usage using the thought experiment of usage being based on these stats: :espeon: :tauros-paldea-fire: :tsareena: :gallade: :lucario: :bisharp: :lokix: :forretress: :staraptor: :samurott: :grimmsnarl: :typhlosion: :toedscruel:

These make sense for the most part, with the only surprise being Lucario, which makes sense because of Scizor’s dominance but it’s still a fairly strong sweeper right now. While a few others like Espeon and Fire Tauros are still solid Pokemon in the metagame that are just a little more niche, the rest range from mediocre to outright unviable. Toedscruel in particular didn’t get used once last round which shows just how dogshit it is. Please let it and the other shitters drop. I hope this post was enjoyable to read. Feel free to share your own thoughts on some cool trends shown from open as well as your own personal experiences. It’s tiring being upset about the tier so try to look for the good side of things.
 
Hi!
I just want to raise the question of the omnipresence of rainteams.
It honestly just starts being as annoying as in Gen5 OU.

3/4ths of the fights I have are against the same Pelipper/Kilowattrel/Floatzel "cores".
Not only it is redundant, but also this is getting annoying. OK, every tier has its most used pokemons. Hello Great Tusks.
But here, it's just teams that keep spamming no-miss-hurricane and switching out on Kilowattrel on electric attacks.
This just makes the metagame less interesting to play.
 
Has anyone tried out the Hisuian NFEs? Of the three, Qwilfish-H seems like the most interesting addition between its relatively unique type combo and eviolite + intimidate bulk. Barb Barage also seems like a decent means of making progress.
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
Hello people, im 1LDK, my favorite mon Chesnaught dropped to UU, so I decided im gonna become a tourist and spent the vacations here, so uh, I have little to no idea about the meta so im gonna do some questions so I can get some info

1) How do you guys feel about the state of the meta, from what I know, you guys had a big problem with rain, but pelipper rose so how you guys feel about that
2)
Inteleon moved from OU to UU
Orthworm moved from OU to UU
Zoroark-Hisui moved from OU to UU

do you guys thing one of these has a use?

3) what are the meme sets

4) any mons from HOME that you expect dropping?
 
Hello people, im 1LDK, my favorite mon Chesnaught dropped to UU, so I decided im gonna become a tourist and spent the vacations here, so uh, I have little to no idea about the meta so im gonna do some questions so I can get some info

1) How do you guys feel about the state of the meta, from what I know, you guys had a big problem with rain, but pelipper rose so how you guys feel about that
2)
Inteleon moved from OU to UU
Orthworm moved from OU to UU
Zoroark-Hisui moved from OU to UU

do you guys thing one of these has a use?

3) what are the meme sets

4) any mons from HOME that you expect dropping?
Sup bro welcome to uu certified big fan of chesnaught here so to answer your questions

1:Meta currently was dominated by Rain and Psychic Terrain HO (personally hate these archetypes) but yeah certainly expecting the meta to at the least slow down a lil and come to a balanced state

2: Shit mon doesn't really have a place considering Gren's in the tier and it can't do anything other than turn when it walled whereas Gren can do that and tspike. If it retained Focus Energy some kool gimmicks could have been found out but alas to NU it goes

3: Personally I have been preaching Big Orth's gospel from the second it left the tier as the best physical glue we could have asked for and a better steel alternative to Tink but upon much further inspection I really dunno where Orth will fit on most team's, It's super finnicky on balance and BO so its more of a semi stall, stall type mon but I would love to be proven wrong. Still It has a great typing and synergizes well with ground weak threats and completely walls most if not all DD sweepers which is always nice.


4: Hisui-ark will probably be pretty good in the meta disguising as a fighting weak mon and baiting in fighters will be great and it has a ton of movepool variety my personal fave set on it will probably be Sub WoW Hex Knock, Disguising as something like quag to bait in mons like wochien for free knocks and wisp and it could have a pretty speed wisp at that makes this mon to me really epic cannot wait to see it in the tier

Not a real big meme set guy but there was this one dude running Wigglytuff on ladder with Wish Protect T-wave Sing lmfao, Anywho glad to see you here in uu (even if its only vacation -_-) Great to see u here and hope u do grate thing with Chesnaught!
 

Cdijk16

Cdijk21 on PS!
is a Pre-Contributor
Hello people, im 1LDK, my favorite mon Chesnaught dropped to UU, so I decided im gonna become a tourist and spent the vacations here, so uh, I have little to no idea about the meta so im gonna do some questions so I can get some info

1) How do you guys feel about the state of the meta, from what I know, you guys had a big problem with rain, but pelipper rose so how you guys feel about that
2)
Inteleon moved from OU to UU
Orthworm moved from OU to UU
Zoroark-Hisui moved from OU to UU

do you guys thing one of these has a use?

3) what are the meme sets

4) any mons from HOME that you expect dropping?
1. I'm happy that Pelipper has left the tier. Rain was a very restrictive archetype to account for in the builder. It forced BOs and Balance into very specific cores to not get completely destroyed.
2. I'm thinking of using Chestnaught with Spikes/Spiky Shield/Leech Seed/Body Press on Spikes BO teams.
3. I'm excited to use Hisui-Ark alongside Fighting weak mons like Bisharp, Tyranitar etc
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
Chesnaught @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spe
Impish Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Drain Punch
- Spikes
- Leech Seed / taunt / Spiky Shield

So this is a quick cooking session, nothing much really, but I think this is a cool set, I have little idea of the overall meta, but from the viability rankings this can hit Sandy, wo chien, gastro, gren, hippo, quagsire, quaquaval, slowbro, ttar, mola, maus and zone, now, of course this one thing is just hit, and the other is switching in, but I guess none of these mons would like to switch in chesnaught so that's okay. tera steel is to avoid toxic and flips the most amount of matchups, and the last move can be one of the 3 for added utility, I don't think Synthesis is good in this tier because Ttar, and with no quick recovery, Rocky Helmet doesn't seem as cool, but it can still work. And the speed out speed no speed wo chien, so you can see his live reaction

Like I said, I have no idea of this meta, and I'm probably looking like a clown, but I hope this helps a little
 

Cdijk16

Cdijk21 on PS!
is a Pre-Contributor
Chesnaught @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spe
Impish Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Drain Punch
- Spikes
- Leech Seed / taunt / Spiky Shield

So this is a quick cooking session, nothing much really, but I think this is a cool set, I have little idea of the overall meta, but from the viability rankings this can hit Sandy, wo chien, gastro, gren, hippo, quagsire, quaquaval, slowbro, ttar, mola, maus and zone, now, of course this one thing is just hit, and the other is switching in, but I guess none of these mons would like to switch in chesnaught so that's okay. tera steel is to avoid toxic and flips the most amount of matchups, and the last move can be one of the 3 for added utility, I don't think Synthesis is good in this tier because Ttar, and with no quick recovery, Rocky Helmet doesn't seem as cool, but it can still work. And the speed out speed no speed wo chien, so you can see his live reaction

Like I said, I have no idea of this meta, and I'm probably looking like a clown, but I hope this helps a little
I feel like this has a niche over Bramble thanks to it's better bulk. It lacks a lot of stuff like Rapid Spin, Strength Sap, Ghost typing, but i still think it has a niche. I feel like a lot of the same partners as Brambleghast apply here since they're so similar. You propably also want a way to pressure Defog Talonflame as it has a very easy time removing hazards vs this.
 
Some brief thoughts on the latest drops

:zoroark-hisui: I thought this mon would be dumb as hell but so far it's kind of whatever, it has a lot of the same issues as gengar in struggling to get onto the field at times, although its improved movepool and illusion mindgames makes it clearly superior to gengar in my opinion. I could still see this being ridiculously annoying long term when paired with mons such as maushold or quaquaval as it's a great lure for their checks but I haven't seen it do much yet. Definitely a solid mon but doesn't seem like anything special.

:orthworm: I wasn't really playing the first time this dropped so I'm not too familiar with it, I've also yet to see it on ladder. Maybe it can carve out a niche seeing as we have so few steel types but it seems very ordinary and I don't see much of a reason to use it.

:chesnaught: I can't see this mon being able to run synthesis, even with pelipper rising likely making weather slightly less omnipresent. That leaves leech seed as its only recovery which could actually be pretty good given its ability to threaten wo chien and sit on a lot of defensive mons, making it kind of a massive nuisance for a lot of balance teams. The big problem is in order to make use of this you have to find some way of removing decidueye or else you have a completely dead slot if you face it. Seems very inconsistent and lacks longevity vs offense which will likely mean it struggles to make its presence really felt, but it seems ok.

:inteleon: Just use greninja.
 
Initial thoughts on new stuff + sets I have used.


Chesnaught @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Ghost / Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 Spe
Impish Nature
- Drain Punch
- Leech Seed
- Spikes
- Taunt

Chesnaught is an okay addition to the tier though it really doesn't do anything all that amazing defensively from initial testing. It is one of the best pivots we have into CB Tyranitar (which is great) + it can check Pawmot and Quaq, though all of them have access to coverage to break past. I specify CB Tyranitar because if you pivot this Pokemon into Tera Flying DD Tyranitar you just become setup fodder without Stone Edge or Taunt. To me, it suffers some pretty significant 4MSS, which is what holds it back the most for me. I think defensive sets are just bad without Taunt because you fall victim to the previous scenario I mentioned but you also can't do anything to Decidueye. Decidueye can't touch you back unless they want to tech Hurricane now but it will just permanently Defog on you, removing all the progress this mon attempts to create with Spikes. Taunt + Leech Seed also lets you actually be a nuisance to Wo-Chien (assuming it has Tera) preventing it from using Rest and Leech forcing it out at some point. Not having Wood Hammer does suck but Taunt hinders most of the bulky Grounds anyways. I agree with the above posts that Synthesis is just hard to fit without it being dead-weight. I gave this one enough Speed for Florges just in case but you can go slower to only hit Wo-Chien.

Chesnaught @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Drain Punch
- Trailblaze
- Stone Edge

I had fun laddering with this under screens even if I only managed to pull off a sweep with it in a few games (DD Tyranitar kept stealing the show). There aren't many Belly Drum options down here besides Hariyama and Chesnaught got a new toy in Trailblaze meaning it doesn't have to run Salac Berry + Sub to make up for the mediocre Speed tier. At +6 Trailblaze at least isn't a completely weak move so in the few games I got to pull off the combo it was cool. It genuinely has a lot of opportunities to get the initial BD off, it just usually struggles to then get the needed Trailblaze Speed boost if you don't have your Tera up. I ran Stone Edge because it lets you beat Mence and Talon but you can probs try some more defensive options too. SD is probably better but it isn't as fun :D


Zoroark-Hisui @ Choice Specs
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower / Hyper Voice
- Grass Knot / Focus Blast
- U-turn / Trick

Zoroark-Hisui @ Life Orb / Focus Sash
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Grass Knot / Focus Blast

Zoroark-H more or less outclasses Gengar for me for most of its sets and that is mainly because Illusion + 3 Immunities lets you get away with a lot of stuff. It forces mind games and can net progress in scenarios Gengar usually isn't capable of doing. I have primarily been running Grass Knot as it removes Gastro and hits Tyranitar very hard. The downside is being walled by Cyclizar and Blissey but if you disguise as a Fighting-type you can usually bypass that problem. I don't think NP is that amazing and usually suffers the same issues I think Gengar has, though Illusion lets you get more opportunities to get that setup opportunity to wallbreak.

It has access to Knock Off so it can run physical pivot sets but I have no experience with it myself, might just be worse than Jugulis though. You can run Hex + Wisp but I think Gengar excels more at this with Tspikes imo. Choice Scarf is probably usable though again I don't have experience testing it.


Haven't used it and I can't see too many reasons to either. So much of the tier just punishes how weak a Steel-type is on the SpD side that I've always defaulted to Tink in the builder. It does have Spikes and walls Hippo so it'll have a niche probably. Maybe ID sets will be a thing though I imagine it would be very Tera-reliant to actually win games.


It does what Specs Greninja does but worse. It lost Focus Energy so it can't even do sets with Scope Lens + Sniper and attempt to crit through everything. No reason to use it.
 

Melt Gibson

planting gardens in the potholes
is a Forum Moderator
Some brief thoughts on the latest drops

:zoroark-hisui: I thought this mon would be dumb as hell but so far it's kind of whatever, it has a lot of the same issues as gengar in struggling to get onto the field at times, although its improved movepool and illusion mindgames makes it clearly superior to gengar in my opinion. I could still see this being ridiculously annoying long term when paired with mons such as maushold or quaquaval as it's a great lure for their checks but I haven't seen it do much yet. Definitely a solid mon but doesn't seem like anything special.
Really not sure what Quaquaval checks you lure besides Slowbro?? Then again that is like, the only real check to it, so whatever. I do think that this is gonna give Maushold a new lease on life though, regular Zoroark already did the job decently imo and this is just better in every regard.


Haven't used it and I can't see too many reasons to either. So much of the tier just punishes how weak a Steel-type is on the SpD side that I've always defaulted to Tink in the builder. It does have Spikes and walls Hippo so it'll have a niche probably. Maybe ID sets will be a thing though I imagine it would be very Tera-reliant to actually win games.
I think that honestly Orthworm is a pretty poor user of Tera seeing as its typing is the biggest thing it brings to the table. Also, despite being weak on the SpDef side, it's only weak to Fighting and Fire, the former only having Focus Blast to speak for it and the latter not having the widest breadth of representation at the moment. You still probably drop to resisted hits with good chip but you only have to live one to be annoying.

Expect a post on the new stuff when I get home from work tomorrow!! Very cool drops even though I'm bitter over no Elefun.
 

Melt Gibson

planting gardens in the potholes
is a Forum Moderator
woooo june shifts!!!

:zoroark-hisui:
This thing is really, really cool. Kinda see the argument for Gengar+, but I think that they just have differing use cases. The added Fire coverage is extremely welcome, as is the option of STAB Tera Blast, although I think Hyper Voice is in most cases better since Zoroark-H's main use of Tera is just for higher burst damage. The defensive utility and general annoyance of Illusion is off the fucking walls, three good immunities and only one weakness let your disguises effectively bait large portions of the metagame and open the floodgates to whatever other offensive threats you have on board. Special sets, either Specs or SubHex, seem to be the way to go since your physical STAB options suck outside of the odd Body Slam. You could theoretically only run Normal STAB and fill out the rest of your slots with U-Turn, Low Kick, and Knock Off to fill a role similar to regular Zoroark, but at that point I think you're failing to capitalize on what makes this mon special. There are a plethora of good moves you can use for tech here, Grass Knot being a personal favorite of mine, but even Knock or Low Kick on special sets is viable imo. I think there are very few matchups where this thing isn't a complete and total pain in the ass, even if it never comes out the fear factor of dissuading your opponent from clicking buttons is very very strong.

:orthworm:
Another Steel is cool! It's passive and does have some yikes matchups, the SpDef notably being quite shitty, but access to a lot of valuable moves and a Ground immunity make a decent attempt at making up for it. I wish it had a status move in the back, being able to spread burns or poison or something would make this a lot more effective at its job. I do think that you have potential to cheese out things that can't really break you with Body Press, you get solid damage out of it especially with continued hazard stacking which is the one thing Orthworm is actually really good at. Very nice paired with Scream Tail too, Wormtail Balance was and still seems to be very solid as a structure. Coil sets seem worse than others but definitely do have their applications.

:chesnaught:
Worse than I expected it to be :( When it wins, it wins by a landslide, but there are just a lot of matchups where this becomes a complete dead slot and you're stuck playing a 5v6. I think Spikes on it is really bad, you have zero pressure versus any relevant removal options outside of the odd tech like Stone Edge, and you really don't wanna be giving up slots so easily on a mon with god awful 4MSS. The good matchups versus things like Band TTar, Quaquaval, Pawmot, and Wo-Chien are still great, but a lot of stuff does give you a rough time. Synthesis and Leech Seed as recovery both have their own unique problems that lead to neither of them being as reliable as you'd like in practice as well. It's okay, but not much more than that.

:inteleon:
lol
 

ThatOneApple

A Bit Fruity
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
:Zoroark-Hisui: My first look at this thing had me worried that itd be broken on the basis that it was gengar but better, however gengar itself has been struggling more as of recent and this mon does struggle in some similar ways. Its a bit difficult to get on the field just like gengar and has some matchups it really needs to avoid if it doesnt have the right move. However, unlike gengar, it has the tools for some of these matchups, u turning out of ttar, additional coverage in flamethrower for tink, knock to help in some longer games where gengar would struggle to get much done outside of fish for sludge bomb poisons. Overall a nice addition to the tier as i havent seen anything to crazy bar some mind game shenanigans.

:Chesnaught: Nice addition to the tier, packs bulk, a great defensive type for the tier, and a nice movepool with things like ironpress and stab wood hammer. Spikes sets didnt take off the way i expected them too but theyre still a fine option if you have the teammates to back it up, as well as the fact that it dumpters :cyclizar: 1v1 and thus can keep spikes up against it. A solid ttar and wo chien check and can answer choiced gengars and zoroarks that only have shadow ball and focus blast for their attacks well. Fun mon and im looking forward to seeing what else people do with it

:Orthworm: Our funny worm is back and is doing his funny worm stuff. Is a bit passive overall but its a nice ttar check as well as being a ground immune steel to help vs quag is nice... not that it actually kills quag but it can get some hazards up and play the long con so... yeah, a bit of an awkward mon in that regard but hey it owns the other bulky grounds quite well if it sets up with ironpress. Kind of a weird addition to the tier but im sure itll do fine

:Inteleon: :worrywhirl:
 

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I thought Zoroark-Hisui was going to be as meh like its regular counterpart but I guess I was wrong. Zoroark-H isn't the scariest threat in the tier for sure but it's not bad either. Its typing is actually quite nice as it offers some decent speed control and Disguise works well with Normal + Ghost typing. I've been messing with Specs / Nasty Plot and even some obscures things such as SD + 3 special attacks (Shadow Ball + Flamethrower + Grass Knot) + Expert Belt in order to lure in some Pokémon. This last set works well alongside Quaquaval because it lures in Slowbro and Quagsire and allows Zoroark-H to OHKO them. It's also a decent lure to Salamence if you're running Icy Wind even tho this means you sacrifice some coverage for it.


Chesnaught is a great addition to the tier. Finally we have a Pokémon that shits on Wo-Chien like no one else. It's a good Spikes setter and an overall good defensive Pokémon while not being passive thanks to Wood Hammer + Body Press. Synthesis is nice, Leech Seed is cool, Taunt is legit..so yeah, that's cool ! I've been trying to use a SD + Trailblaze versions alongside Drain Punch + Rock Slide and...it's fine.. I guess ? It's fun to surprise an opponent but it's not incredible either.


Quick reminder : this Pokémon can run Heal Bell now which means Stall teams should have a better place in the current metagame !
 
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