Metagame SV Ubers UU Metagame Discussion (Ditto, Lunala, Iron Treads and Terapagos Dropped)

[Joseph Gomes]

Still a bit early, but Lugia is coming back within 2 weeks, and will be a major defensive backbone to the tier. Will help a lot of people who struggle with offense

 

[Pabloaram]

I think , and his necrozma twin, (the 3 version) and Maybe gonna join UUbers in december plus there gonna be some drops tomorrow

 

[KineSquared]

I think , and his necrozma twin, (the 3 version) and Maybe gonna join UUbers in december plus there gonna be some drops tomorrow

just to clarify, new DLC2 mons don't drop to ubers UU until january. We need to know what's most used in regualr ubers to determine what is ubers UU worthy

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

just to clarify, new DLC2 mons don't drop to ubers UU until january. We need to know what's most used in regualr ubers to determine what is ubers UU worthy

and if i'm correct, that means that even the below-ubers ones aren't being added until january, so the meta will not change outside of rises and drops for the rest of the year. we're stuck with this extremely limited amount of zacian counterplay until 2024 unless we either take action on it or mount a coordinated effort to increase its usage in ubers. (i vote for the second one because that's the way funnier method of kicking something out of a usage-based tier)

 

[cyrtie]

Would Lugia even be good here? I feel like the recovery move pp nerf would hold it back even here, but I suppose we will see what moves it gets

 

[njnp]

Last Respects is the most uncompetitive element currently in the tier. This move gets stronger and stronger with each fainted party member, increasing by 50 base power. Starting at 50 bp, if Houndstone (the current only abuser, as every other abuser was quick banned) is the last remaining Pokemon, it wields an unprecedented 300 BP STAB move. Even with just a few Pokemon remaining, you can witness it still unleashing a potent 200/250 BP STAB move. This is also not accounting for the fact it can make the move even stronger with tera ghost. Managing this becomes challenging, especially if you lack a Normal-type Pokemon, as even those resistant to its Ghost stab attacks can be overwhelmed by its sheer power. Let's not forget that Houndstone also has a strong poltergeist 110BP stab attack it can fire off before even needing any party member to faint to gain power. While Houndstone may lack some desirable attributes, it has fantastic utility in will o wisp and trick on scarf sets. Houndstone has the versatility currently not only being a power sand sweeper but also being a nice late game revenger/cleaner with its scarf set partnered with Fluffy making contact priority moves bounce off. We have seen so far Houndstone shine on Sand, As a scarfer, Wall, & TR abuser.

Enough about Houndstone though, it may be the main abuser right now but it isn't the main problem Last Respects is. Last Respects has already allowed to main water abusers to be removed from the tier and has enabled a rather mediocre Pokemon in Houndstone to carry the weather of Sand and enabled teams to get a free built in balance/stall ender with not much in its way but ironically its own teammates not allowing it to gain more power.

Last Respects is an uncompetitive move and we don't have all the tools that Ubers has at its disposal to curtail it. We don't have contentious weather changers like Koraidon & Kyorge. We don't have sucker punch revengers such as Kingambit or Chien Pao. We already have such enormous threats such as Zacian, Arceus Fire/Poison, and Palkia-O we currently have to curtail. Now, we do have tera normal users such as Arceus and Dragonite but needing to rely on Tera to handle this problem speaks to how troublesome it is. This uncompetitive move in the tier should be removed so we can focus more of our attention on handling those issues instead of dealing with uncompetitive elements such as Last Respects.

TLDR, Ban Last Respects the move, Unban Basculegion F and hopefully we M some day

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Last Respects is the most uncompetitive element currently in the tier. This move gets stronger and stronger with each fainted party member, increasing by 50 base power. Starting at 50 bp, if Houndstone (the current only abuser, as every other abuser was quick banned) is the last remaining Pokemon, it wields an unprecedented 300 BP STAB move. Even with just a few Pokemon remaining, you can witness it still unleashing a potent 200/250 BP STAB move. This is also not accounting for the fact it can make the move even stronger with tera ghost. Managing this becomes challenging, especially if you lack a Normal-type Pokemon, as even those resistant to its Ghost stab attacks can be overwhelmed by its sheer power. Let's not forget that Houndstone also has a strong poltergeist 110BP stab attack it can fire off before even needing any party member to faint to gain power. While Houndstone may lack some desirable attributes, it has fantastic utility in will o wisp and trick on scarf sets. Houndstone has the versatility currently not only being a power sand sweeper but also being a nice late game revenger/cleaner with its scarf set partnered with Fluffy making contact priority moves bounce off. We have seen so far Houndstone shine on Sand, As a scarfer, Wall, & TR abuser.

Enough about Houndstone though, it may be the main abuser right now but it isn't the main problem Last Respects is. Last Respects has already allowed to main water abusers to be removed from the tier and has enabled a rather mediocre Pokemon in Houndstone to carry the weather of Sand and enabled teams to get a free built in balance/stall ender with not much in its way but ironically its own teammates not allowing it to gain more power.

Last Respects is an uncompetitive move and we don't have all the tools that Ubers has at its disposal to curtail it. We don't have contentious weather changers like Koraidon & Kyorge. We don't have sucker punch revengers such as Kingambit or Chien Pao. We already have such enormous threats such as Zacian, Arceus Fire/Poison, and Palkia-O we currently have to curtail. Now, we do have tera normal users such as Arceus and Dragonite but needing to rely on Tera to handle this problem speaks to how troublesome it is. This uncompetitive move in the tier should be removed so we can focus more of our attention on handling those issues instead of dealing with uncompetitive elements such as Last Respects.

TLDR, Ban Last Respects the move, Unban Basculegion F and M

Would a suspect test be considered? To get community opinion

 

[njnp]

Would a suspect test be considered? To get community opinion

I would like to quick ban Last Respects so we can focus on a Zacian suspect, but that's just my personal opinion and doesn't reflect the council's general view.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Would Lugia even be good here? I feel like the recovery move pp nerf would hold it back even here, but I suppose we will see what moves it gets

I expect it to be much better than it would be in Ubers. Defog (if it keeps it), Thunder Wave and Whirlwind are pretty good for its bulk. Mainly just being a wall which is much needed

 

[FrostyRandom]

Last Respects is the most uncompetitive element currently in the tier. This move gets stronger and stronger with each fainted party member, increasing by 50 base power. Starting at 50 bp, if Houndstone (the current only abuser, as every other abuser was quick banned) is the last remaining Pokemon, it wields an unprecedented 300 BP STAB move. Even with just a few Pokemon remaining, you can witness it still unleashing a potent 200/250 BP STAB move. This is also not accounting for the fact it can make the move even stronger with tera ghost. Managing this becomes challenging, especially if you lack a Normal-type Pokemon, as even those resistant to its Ghost stab attacks can be overwhelmed by its sheer power. Let's not forget that Houndstone also has a strong poltergeist 110BP stab attack it can fire off before even needing any party member to faint to gain power. While Houndstone may lack some desirable attributes, it has fantastic utility in will o wisp and trick on scarf sets. Houndstone has the versatility currently not only being a power sand sweeper but also being a nice late game revenger/cleaner with its scarf set partnered with Fluffy making contact priority moves bounce off. We have seen so far Houndstone shine on Sand, As a scarfer, Wall, & TR abuser.

Enough about Houndstone though, it may be the main abuser right now but it isn't the main problem Last Respects is. Last Respects has already allowed to main water abusers to be removed from the tier and has enabled a rather mediocre Pokemon in Houndstone to carry the weather of Sand and enabled teams to get a free built in balance/stall ender with not much in its way but ironically its own teammates not allowing it to gain more power.

Last Respects is an uncompetitive move and we don't have all the tools that Ubers has at its disposal to curtail it. We don't have contentious weather changers like Koraidon & Kyorge. We don't have sucker punch revengers such as Kingambit or Chien Pao. We already have such enormous threats such as Zacian, Arceus Fire/Poison, and Palkia-O we currently have to curtail. Now, we do have tera normal users such as Arceus and Dragonite but needing to rely on Tera to handle this problem speaks to how troublesome it is. This uncompetitive move in the tier should be removed so we can focus more of our attention on handling those issues instead of dealing with uncompetitive elements such as Last Respects.

TLDR, Ban Last Respects the move, Unban Basculegion F and M

I will respectfully disagree as I personally feel there is a more defining and worse part of the metagame as a whole, EKiller Arceus from any normal typing, mostly Fireceus. This specific set can turn around the entire momentum of a game and can consistently reverse 6-0 if the victim of this set does not have a specific counter. The fact Nebula and I had to specifically find Sableye to hard counter this pokemon shows to just how hard the set and pokemon itself is to counter, and even then Sableye isn't guaranteed to stick around every game due to its natural fraility. Last Respects can be played around easier imo as Cyclizar is a common pokemon used for its utility and with Houndstone being the only viable user, it relies on sand or fluffy sets and both can be taken advantage of by a good special attacker, especially Sand Rush sets after sand ends, as Tyranitar or Hippowdon are not guaranteed to stick around too long either, more Tyranitar with that issue. EKiller Arceus is very easy to keep around otherwise with its access to Recover and excellent natural bulk. Sure, tera ghost could counter the strategy but that sacrifices a possible more useful tera type on a pokemon, like a tera water on palafin, or tera fairy on a palkia origin, etc. While I understand why you think Last Respects is the most uncompetitive thing in the tier atm, I believe this threat should be tackled first before we worry about Last Respects, though Sand will be on the rise after DLC2 with Excadrill returning so i'd assume we would take a look at Last Respects as a move if Houndstone becomes too much to handle then.

 

[Leo Justice]

Last Respects is the most uncompetitive element currently in the tier. This move gets stronger and stronger with each fainted party member, increasing by 50 base power. Starting at 50 bp, if Houndstone (the current only abuser, as every other abuser was quick banned) is the last remaining Pokemon, it wields an unprecedented 300 BP STAB move. Even with just a few Pokemon remaining, you can witness it still unleashing a potent 200/250 BP STAB move. This is also not accounting for the fact it can make the move even stronger with tera ghost. Managing this becomes challenging, especially if you lack a Normal-type Pokemon, as even those resistant to its Ghost stab attacks can be overwhelmed by its sheer power. Let's not forget that Houndstone also has a strong poltergeist 110BP stab attack it can fire off before even needing any party member to faint to gain power. While Houndstone may lack some desirable attributes, it has fantastic utility in will o wisp and trick on scarf sets. Houndstone has the versatility currently not only being a power sand sweeper but also being a nice late game revenger/cleaner with its scarf set partnered with Fluffy making contact priority moves bounce off. We have seen so far Houndstone shine on Sand, As a scarfer, Wall, & TR abuser.

Enough about Houndstone though, it may be the main abuser right now but it isn't the main problem Last Respects is. Last Respects has already allowed to main water abusers to be removed from the tier and has enabled a rather mediocre Pokemon in Houndstone to carry the weather of Sand and enabled teams to get a free built in balance/stall ender with not much in its way but ironically its own teammates not allowing it to gain more power.

Last Respects is an uncompetitive move and we don't have all the tools that Ubers has at its disposal to curtail it. We don't have contentious weather changers like Koraidon & Kyorge. We don't have sucker punch revengers such as Kingambit or Chien Pao. We already have such enormous threats such as Zacian, Arceus Fire/Poison, and Palkia-O we currently have to curtail. Now, we do have tera normal users such as Arceus and Dragonite but needing to rely on Tera to handle this problem speaks to how troublesome it is. This uncompetitive move in the tier should be removed so we can focus more of our attention on handling those issues instead of dealing with uncompetitive elements such as Last Respects.

TLDR, Ban Last Respects the move, Unban Basculegion F and M

Personally, I'd say that Fluffy Houndstone is far more problematic than Sand rush houndstone. The main reason for that is that fluffy makes it so incredibly tanky and it allows it to act as a great defensive physical wall, while dealing upwards of 80% to legendary pokemon like Dialga, That thing takes like 30% from a Zacian's play rough. I don't even think Crunch is a guaranteed 2HKO without band or LO. I am unsure if taking out Houndstone would completely take out sand, with abusers like Sand force Landorus-I and Sand Veil Garchomp allowed.

Trick room is a very interesting option for Houndstone, since it acts like Ursaluna on steroids at the end of the game. I think this in particular is probably the most problematic set at the moment since it gets both the benefits of being extremely fast with TR and extremely bulky with Fluffy, making revenge killers like Rillaboom's Grassy glide or Palafin's Jet Punch fail to deal significant damage.

I am down to doing a suspect test or a QB vote on last respects, though I don't know how the community in general feels about it since the survey we conducted before the tier launched was before Houndstone took such an increase on usage (It went from barely being above the 4.52% cutoff rate to being on the top 20 most used pokemon during this month following the ban of basculegeon-F).

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Would Lugia even be good here? I feel like the recovery move pp nerf would hold it back even here, but I suppose we will see what moves it gets

the average power level is quite lower here than regular ubers. 90/90 attacking stats are unacceptably passive in ubers but not that bad in this environment, and 106/130/154 bulk (plus multiscale!) is a much more meaningful thing to throw around. i think luigi would be serviceable here, especially since you can get rid of its not-great typing by clicking a button. lugia also has some neat utility techs i can see being used—thunder wave is obviously good for speed control, whirlwind is extremely useful against setup sweepers (especially when you naturally resist both stored power and body press), and even future sight might see some usage because that move's underrated as hell. i am very excited for lugia

Houndstone (the current only abuser, as every other abuser was quick banned)

technically, basculin-white-striped can use it also, which actually adds to your point because even that is a genuinely terrifying scarf user with tera ghost (it actually outspeeds sand rush houndstone and hits harder thanks to adaptability). last respects is broken on everything that gets it. i initially thought that maybe the power level of this tier might be enough to constrain it, but i was wrong—all the counterplay i've tested is falling short in other meta-relevant areas (for example, bloodmoon's 140-power move off of 135 spa is a lot less impressive in a tier where origin palkia exists)

 

[njnp]

I will respectfully disagree as I personally feel there is a more defining and worse part of the metagame as a whole, EKiller Arceus from any normal typing, mostly Fireceus. This specific set can turn around the entire momentum of a game and can consistently reverse 6-0 if the victim of this set does not have a specific counter. The fact Nebula and I had to specifically find Sableye to hard counter this pokemon shows to just how hard the set and pokemon itself is to counter, and even then Sableye isn't guaranteed to stick around every game due to its natural fraility. Last Respects can be played around easier imo as Cyclizar is a common pokemon used for its utility and with Houndstone being the only viable user, it relies on sand or fluffy sets and both can be taken advantage of by a good special attacker, especially Sand Rush sets after sand ends, as Tyranitar or Hippowdon are not guaranteed to stick around too long either, more Tyranitar with that issue. EKiller Arceus is very easy to keep around otherwise with its access to Recover and excellent natural bulk. Sure, tera ghost could counter the strategy but that sacrifices a possible more useful tera type on a pokemon, like a tera water on palafin, or tera fairy on a palkia origin, etc. While I understand why you think Last Respects is the most uncompetitive thing in the tier atm, I believe this threat should be tackled first before we worry about Last Respects, though Sand will be on the rise after DLC2 with Excadrill returning so i'd assume we would take a look at Last Respects as a move if Houndstone becomes too much to handle then.

So, I'm not suggesting in the post there aren't scarier Pokemon, I'm highlighting what I view to be the most uncompetitive element for tier health overall. As I stated in my post we already have enormous threats such as Zacian, Arceus Fire/Poison, and Palkia-O. We will look into those threats I would like to remove an element that adds nothing to the tier before tackling those Pokemon to make it a better tiering experience. Cyclizar usage being high doesn't help with last respects as its mediocre bulk can't come into a body press or play rough from the dog. As far as Arceus we will see what the usage stats dictate as if we get Giratina back, it will be a big blow to Arc Killer lovers.

 

[Magcargo]

is a good and healthy metagame presence that we should preserve at all cost. We should axe the dog before the move imo.

 

[FrostyRandom]

So, I'm not suggesting in the post there aren't scarier Pokemon, I'm highlighting what I view to be the most uncompetitive element for tier health overall. As I stated in my post we already have enormous threats such as Zacian, Arceus Fire/Poison, and Palkia-O. We will look into those threats I would like to remove an element that adds nothing to the tier before tackling those Pokemon to make it a better tiering experience. Cyclizar usage being high doesn't help with last respects as its mediocre bulk can't come into a body press or play rough from the dog. As far as Arceus we will see what the usage stats dictate as if we get Giratina back, it will be a big blow to Arc Killer lovers.

I understand what you are saying and while I certainly respect the opinion, I just personally think Last Respects is not as uncompetitive as the EKiller arcs running around are. While Giratina could certainly be dropping, slotting that onto every team could certainly provide some trouble for more offensively biased teams and even certain balance teams, as I remember how it was a necessity on stall before it got banned due to usage. While you are correct about the Cyclizar thing, it being so high usage means that it will be on a lot of teams to counter play the Last Respects user, as most are running a choice item with Last Respects such as Choice Band. Fluffy is a more annoying set to deal with but then gets opened up to more burn opportunities from faster defensive mons with Will o Wisp, like Moltres. I just believe that EKiller spam is a worse aspect of the metagame than one viable abuser of Last Respects is at this moment.

 

[Magcargo]

I understand what you are saying and while I certainly respect the opinion, I just personally think Last Respects is not as uncompetitive as the EKiller arcs running around are. While Giratina could certainly be dropping, slotting that onto every team could certainly provide some trouble for more offensively biased teams and even certain balance teams, as I remember how it was a necessity on stall before it got banned due to usage. While you are correct about the Cyclizar thing, it being so high usage means that it will be on a lot of teams to counter play the Last Respects user, as most are running a choice item with Last Respects such as Choice Band. Fluffy is a more annoying set to deal with but then gets opened up to more burn opportunities from faster defensive mons with Will o Wisp, like Moltres. I just believe that EKiller spam is a worse aspect of the metagame than one viable abuser of Last Respects is at this moment.

Choice Items aren't needed on Houndstone. Last Respects is dealing so much damage in most cases, that you can get away with running another item like Boots, which makes Houndstone significantly more difficult to counter, esp when combined the ability to switch moves. I've seen a few variants of this with Tera Blast Fighting that pick up free KOes even at a middling number of mons dead (like 2 - 3) which makes counterplay to this strategy a bit more difficult. That being said, I personally haven't struggled with Houndstone too much myself, as I am running Garganacl on my main team, which is a very poor match-up for Houndstone at a middle number of Last Respects deaths and can set it self up to sweep vs Houndstone's Team if needed.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Choice Items aren't needed on Houndstone

what, you don't know about the specs mud shot set?

 

[Negative Charge]

I think the bar for move bans in this tier should be pretty high. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to pack a Tera normal somewhere on your team, especially given the prevalence of Tera EKillers being very viable. To a certain extent I think this is just something we should have to account for in the builder in an Ubers format. It’s strong and centralizing but so are many other elements.

 

[Just A Shroom God]

what, you don't know about the specs mud shot set?

but if you close your eyes

does it almost feel like nothing's changed at all?

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I think the bar for move bans in this tier should be pretty high.

so do i, but from my experience, last respects clears that bar

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to pack a Tera normal somewhere on your team, especially given the prevalence of Tera EKillers being very viable.

this is true, but tera normal isn't reliable set-in-stone counterplay anymore. the possibility of being forced to burn tera early aside, houndstone's not running choice items as much these days, so your tera normal ekiller might end up getting wisped and whittled down by a supereffective body press

To a certain extent I think this is just something we should have to account for in the builder in an Ubers format. It’s strong and centralizing but so are many other elements.

that was my argument too until i tried accounting for it in builder and realized that a lot of last respects' traditional non-tera counterplay doesn't actually exist in this meta

 

[Pabloaram]

I think qb Last Respect is the way to go.. Both Houdstone and Basculin White doesnt exist or have a good niche after LR is nuke of the tier + this open up the use of the Both Basculegion form...

The only common ghost resist is Garga or Darkceus with both get chiped out by bpress and they have competition in his roll specially Darkceus with the other superior Arceus form in Fire and Poison.

Also i also think Zacian needs to at least be suspected. Outspeed the full uninvested metagame and he is still uncheckable....

Tldr QB Last Respect SUSpects Zacian

 

[BoingK]

We're saved

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

View attachment 575580
We're saved

ok i think we might actually, no exaggeration, be saved. gira-a convincingly answers sneasler and tera poison can also solidly check zacian and magearna, corv is the literal only thing that can switch into both zacian's play rough and ground tera blast (red card anyone?), and dozo is fat enough (and unaware enough) to defensively check zacian, sneasler, and physical arceus sets. this is straight-up the best-case scenario. i'm breaking out the champagne for this one

 

[vesp]

ok i think we might actually, no exaggeration, be saved. gira-a convincingly answers sneasler and tera poison can also solidly check zacian and magearna, corv is the literal only thing that can switch into both zacian's play rough and ground tera blast (red card anyone?), and dozo is fat enough (and unaware enough) to defensively check zacian, sneasler, and physical arceus sets. this is straight-up the best-case scenario. i'm breaking out the champagne for this one

In October ran tera fire so couldn't just wisp it. Mag doesn't need answers, if you're losing to double dance you're getting skill diffed+there are 2 new defoggers to remove mag's spikes. and both have horrific mus into I wouldn't be shocked if Gterrains ceases to be viable.

 

[Magcargo]

View attachment 575580
We're saved

Corv and Tina will be great additions. Hazards are so fucking broken in this tier that ANY removal options will be better than nothing.

People might laugh at Corv due to its poor Gholdengo MU, but A) the best hazard setters being steel-type create some synergy issues with Dengo and B) Corviknight has some of the best anti-Dengo support in this tier compared to OU in Chi-Yu, which can easily use Ghold as an oppurtunity to pick up free KOes with Overheat. Giratina-A will naturally do fine vs Dengo with Shadow Ball.

Corv and Dozo do great vs Zacian, but as a Moltres Enjoyer, this may be bad, as Zacian will now be running Wild Charge to snipe all three.