Outright ban had ~10% support, Sir Quixote. If you despise terastalization this badly, there are OMs and prior gens available.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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adding on to what others have said about illusion counterplay, just pay attention to what items your op runs. If that hdb volc comes in and suddenly takes 12% from rocks it’s pretty easy to decipher that its zoro, same can be applied with lefties.
another thing while less common is protect scouting, some mons run protect with lefties to scout choice moves but it can also help against zoro, Volc using shadowball seems pretty off.
while some could argue it’s “uncompetitive” as Eeveeto said its on a super frail mon that dies to like any chip and can be pressured from coming onto the field when hazards are up.
another thing while less common is protect scouting, some mons run protect with lefties to scout choice moves but it can also help against zoro, Volc using shadowball seems pretty off.
while some could argue it’s “uncompetitive” as Eeveeto said its on a super frail mon that dies to like any chip and can be pressured from coming onto the field when hazards are up.
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Yeah what's this cat girl crap? Meowscarada has a 87.5% male ratio.
HUMANIZED CAT GIRL, ideal for degenerates
Can snipe tusk with Leaf Storm, but sacrifices some good firepower in almost anything else
has spikes and t spikes for some reason, but no rocks
has taunt, knock off and sucker punch, good utility options
is faster
Immune to prankster bullshit
Am I forgetting something?
As for the illusion discussion as has been said by others illusion isn't really busted since only 2 mons have access to it and one isn't really good even with it and the other isn't outright broken with it. I haven't found illusion to difficult to work with since it tends to be pretty obvious when it's a Zoroark in hiding. That said it can ruin your day if your opponent is clever about it or you have no skill. Shed Tail I find annoying but I dunno if it's outright broken with Orthworm like it is with Cyclizar but if it gets suspected later you won't see me complaining.
Honestly, even if I know that it's zoro I still have trouble with it, scarf trick really hurts my walls, and the STAB boosted by 
or NP is really scary. I don't think it should be banned as it's decently easy to play around, but it's worth looking into.
Speaking of it, has anyone considered boots utility zoro? It means hazard damage doesn't give it away and it gets WoW, knock, hex and u turn...
Anyways just a thought that might be bad because it's so frail.
or NP is really scary. I don't think it should be banned as it's decently easy to play around, but it's worth looking into.Speaking of it, has anyone considered boots utility zoro? It means hazard damage doesn't give it away and it gets WoW, knock, hex and u turn...
Anyways just a thought that might be bad because it's so frail.
Zoroark-Hisui @ Leftovers
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Bitter Malice
- Flamethrower
Only used this a handful of games, but I can already tell this is gonna be a strong set. Zoroark forces a lot of switches, letting it easily set up a sub, even on its potential counters thanks to illusion. From there it can set up Nasty Plot or spam Bitter Malice. Bitter Malice is pretty OP since its dropping the opponent's Attack stat, giving Zoroark not completely terrible survivability, particularly against defensive Pokemon such as Garganacl. I think it pairs pretty well with other Nasty Plotters like Hydreigon.
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Bitter Malice
- Flamethrower
Only used this a handful of games, but I can already tell this is gonna be a strong set. Zoroark forces a lot of switches, letting it easily set up a sub, even on its potential counters thanks to illusion. From there it can set up Nasty Plot or spam Bitter Malice. Bitter Malice is pretty OP since its dropping the opponent's Attack stat, giving Zoroark not completely terrible survivability, particularly against defensive Pokemon such as Garganacl. I think it pairs pretty well with other Nasty Plotters like Hydreigon.
I just saw Gambit rose to S in viability. We really need Home ASAP.
It is also god tier on Nat Dex, I'm kinda worried of it becoming even more powerful with tutors on the DLCs.
its got pursuit in natdex, which it isnt gonna get in any dlc or home
This is taking an oceanic amount of piss. Illusion is an ability that has done absolutely nothing to salvage regular Zoroark's viability in OU in any generation. In this replay here, this battle would have gone the exact same way even if it was Unovan Zoroark. In fact, it might have actually gone a little better if it was Unovan Zoroark since Garg wouldn't have resisted its Dark STAB. The other player just did a really terrible job responding to Zoroark once it played its hand. Shed Tail, I'm kind of with you on. But coin flip Acupressure sets are not the way to prove its imbalance. It's an unreliable gimmick that the other player just didn't handle well and they let Tsareena snowball for way too long.
I think maybe you just don't like SV OU. Like, at all. And that's fine, I don't like everything in it either. But between the Tera suspect overwhelmingly showing the community wants Tera and no one taking your side here, I think maybe your time would be better spent elsewhere.
Well in ND it can use Z moves and it has pursuit for whatever sick reason so that makes it more obnoxious, let’s hope they don’t give it more tools with tutors.
I honestly don’t understand what was going through the mind of the GF employee who came up with the idea of giving an evolution to Bisharp as if it needed lol. I demand evolutions for Weavile, Scizor and Gliscor, they need them too!
This is funny bc judging by the results - if there was ban or no ban, it would likely swing more in favour of no ban due to the overwhelming majority of action being Team Preview and Outright Ban being a very far second.
I think by and large most people ARE actually more okay with Tera than they were back when the suspect was ongoing - there's rarely any discussion on it aside from a few less-than-common posts like yours. It's clearly shown to be a good way to adapt to a meta (Tera anything Clodsire being the glue that keeps a lot of the meta in check) and creates unique ways of dealing with threats. Not to say there isn't shit that abuses Tera because there absolutely is - but I think mostly it has found its place without being super overwhelming.
I personally agree a lot with that sentiment. In my opinion the reason the inherent "50/50" nature of Tera was much more discussed in the first months has mostly been due to the metagame being so offensive and the threats so powerful that having one wrong "guess" easily could legitimately lose you the game on the spot.
My main worry more recently however (even though quite unpopular it seems) has actually been with Tera Blast as a move. I consider it the aspect of Tera that is the most "matchup-fishy", as its role most of the time is to allow offensive mons to select their checks in a way that I personally find excessive (looking in particular at the fire moth, the chess piece and the ghost dragon). In addition even though it may not be relevant now, in the future of home and new DLC the aspect of giving certain mons access to coverage they may not be balanced around should be considered.
It may be my personal bias as a player frustrated from the jank in mid-ladder hell but it is my opinion at the moment.
Generally speaking, National Dex comparisons to OU are incomplete and not fully representative. Too many other variables at play in that format relative to this one. Best we do not assign much weight like that.
Uh... no? Zoroark did pretty much nothing, and abc played it well by going into Pex for the Toxic, followed by the switch into Garg. If anything, abc was unlucky to get the SpDef drop, but it wasn't as tragic due to Pex's Regen. I agree that Zoroark is annoying, but it's definitely manageable if you know how to play around it, and this replay actually shows that.
Fair enough, I also believe that Shed Tail deserves a suspect so this is the only point I actually agree on.
Again, you chose the worst possible replay to showcase your point lol. The Tera was absolutely useless at that point, since Moonblast was doing 32% max and Tsareena had a x2.33 boost to its evasion. It could have kept spamming Acupressure and Synthesis, without a worry on this world. Also, as JunkoAJ said, judging by the results of the suspect test Tera would have gotten no action, if the options were to either go for a hard ban or not, since the majority of the action players voted for the team preview (like I did).
It's okay to dislike the current state of the meta, but going as far as calling us dumb for not agreeing with you is going a bit too far.
In the end, there’s no chance we touch Illusion at this exact moment in time. I do not think we need to beat a dead horse by having a half dozen people quote respond to one minority opinion. Let’s move on.
It was mostly a conversation starter- and my semi-weekly bemoaning about Tera which I honestly can't help lmao.
I was very clear that I don't think Illusion is broken in practice but technically it's an uncompetitive ability.
It's an interesting and thought provoking concept- it's akin to the Magnezone-M-Pull conversation.
Same thing w Shed Tail, on paper it's v uncomp but it's on a slow mon that can usually only do it once.
That said, it can still get it up once, which I think is an issue we might want to look into more.
Forum was focused around a tepid "best lead" convo and some posts about Cryognal before I posted lol
You can have a bias and issues w me as a player but don't try to force the narrative or topics of a forum- let the thread develop organically.
Your role as a volunteer is to step in when things get egregiously off-topic or inappropriate.
For all your posts talking about burnout and heavy work load, trying to micromanage the forum seems like an odd choice.
I can come in here and say "Ban Tera" religiously every other week if I want, but again, I honestly think meta is in a bad spot and I want to discuss some of the smaller reasons why with my community; such as shed tail and illusion mind games that I don't feel add anything positive- and the players who post on this forum decide when that conversation reaches a natural conclusion.
Well the point of the player using Tsareena was that if a trash mon can set up behind a free sub then good mons can really abuse it lol
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I have no gripes with you as a player as I have never seen you play and only seen you post the handful of recent times; there is nothing more to this.
I am glad you are posting and hope you continue, but topics sometimes need to shift.
That is not the job description of a moderator and it is not your position to determine what moderators do and do not do. My role as a volunteer is to make sure this thread runs well, and my role as a council member entails reading the posts of this thread sometimes to help formulate substantive opinions.
When I see one topping approaching dead-end territory, I will try to shift gears. I have done this many times this generation and you, the person who brought up this specific topic, just happen to be the only person to object. Funny how that works.
Politely, shut up and mind your own business.
I don't think that's true whatsoever as we had a match gen 8 where you actively got upset at the outcome and called me an ass.
Also heard you were the driving force for the no-tera private room request being denied, but that's rumor so we can move on.
We're saying the same thing- making sure the thread runs well is literally to step in when things get egregiously off-topic or inappropriate. That's been the standard bare minimum of a forum mod since forums have been around. If you want to add extra responsibilities such as help formulate opinions that's your prerogative, but we would be fine without it if you wanted to take a break.
That's your subjective opinion, there could have been another 2 pages of thought-provoking conversation and posts on the subject. Just because you personally, subjectively, think it was approaching a dead end doesn't mean it was. Also, if it reaches a dead end, then so be it lol. Another poster will start a new topic- aka letting a forum develop organically vs micromanaging the flow of conversation. I have seen you do it many times and it's been kinda weird each time.
It's everyone's business? You actively bemoan your role and its responsibilities on this very forum, which I'm sure are taxing, truly.
I've posted how I appreciate your hard work, how I respect it and your role- and we can agree to disagree on topics, but take it easy bro. You and the council only have a few weeks until all hell breaks loose post-Home. I'm literally just saying enjoy your down time lol.
I haven’t done anything with regards to PS or the OU room besides shitpost and link suspects/bans in ages. I only have my @ because I am a tier leader; this “rumor” is entirely untrue and I did not offer a comment on it (and I wasn’t even in the talks whenever discussion may have transpired). We have a ton of people who are more dedicated to the room that handle that side, and it’s just not my personal interest. So no, I was not a driving force behind any room being denied or accepted.
I also have no recollection of ever playing you or talking to you prior to this generation, but that also sounds like me so I don’t doubt it.
I am going to make this very simple: I don’t know you, I don’t dislike you, and I don’t have any issue with you posting. My issue lies in you trying to tell me how to perform my duties as a moderator and tier leader with the tone you apply. Other posters have cited the same grievances via post reports and messages to me, so I am doing my job both representing myself and parties interested in my section. I still want you to post and encourage you to do so, but there are lines that you need to work on not crossing. I am saying this with the most respect possible as your underlying points and arguments hold a good amount of merit, but other factors are detracting from the perceived value of your posts to many.
If you wish to offer constructive criticism, my PMs are always open, but grouping it the way you are isn’t a good look.
Thank you for not taking it too personally.
My personality type likes to argue for mental exercise and fun and rarely has any true emotion behind it-especially online.
However, this isn't the place for that, I can agree with that.
Once again you have illustrated why the community puts it's trust in you and has been doing well under your leadership.
The last thing I want is for my valid points to be buried under, whatever it is, my tone for starters.
I wanted to talk about shed tail and illusion but somehow ended up in conflict again. I'll take your and others advice going forward, starting with taking a break from gen 9.
Once again, thanks for your time, patience, and work you put in for this community.
termnal
formerly Lpow12
Ok so what kind of teams are y'all using iron moth on? Its probably my favorite paradox mon besides sandy shocks but I keep finding that I would rather have a mon other than Moth when I am actually using it. If I'm some boots variant I would rather have volcarona and I would rather have something like wake or pult if I'm running specs. It rose in the vr update but I can't seem to find a team/build where it feels better like the best choice for a team.
From Theorymon standpoint, something to try is Torkoal + Specs Iron Moth Tera Fire + EJECT BUTTON PINCURCHIN for comparable to Chi Yu nukes that delete everything. Of course, such a structure has big limitations, since you have 2 mediocre Mons in it and you are pretty forced to put either Hatterene or Tusk in the team (maybe both), but the nukes probably do delete standard Pex and everything less bulky than it.
I usually use it in BO teams, since it offers great wallbreaking support with Specs. Corviknight is a nice partner since it covers most of Moth weaknesses, besides being a great defensive wall that can check most of the physical mons that may threaten it (Moth has a good special bulk, so those aren't that much of a problem). Corvi can also run Defog as support to get rid of the hazards on your field, although you could always just slap a Tusk on your team and call it a day. Meoscarada is another good teammate that resists many of Moth weaknesses (Psychic, Ground, Water) and viceversa (Bug, Fighting, Poison, Ice, Fire, Fairy), and can pivot around with Banded U-turn to pressure the opponent. A Band+Specs offensive core can easily wear down your opponents if they don't play carefully. Rotom does pretty much the same, being a good Ground immunity and being able to check defensive threats with Wisp, while also pivoting around with Volt Switch. Or you could just use a Sun team and nuke everything that isn't immune to a Sun Boosted STAB Overheat coming out of a 140 base SpA with Specs, which is an evergreen.
In general, Moth is a great wallbreaker that does wallbreaking stuff, so you should always use it accordingly. In my opinion it's best used as an instant nuke with Specs, I never liked the Agility set that much but to each their own.
termnal
formerly Lpow12
Thats fair I always feel like specs Moth plus specs Wake is to prediction reliant on sun but maybe its time to load up more sun to terrorize ladder. The bo idea I like I guess I just haven't found the combination that feels "good" into the meta right now. There are just a few to many times where I feel like man I wish I had a mon that outsped valiant or meowscarada or Roaring Moon in this slot, I'll mess around with the stuff a little more cause I love me some MOTH.
I would like to gather some of your thoughts regarding a specific Pokemon that's shaping the Metagame right now :
Kingambit @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Flying / Fire / Dark / Fairy
EVs: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head / Low Kick / Tera Blast
We need to talk about Kingambit.
Who can confidently say they've never been reversed swept by a single Kingambit ?
While this Pokemon in itself seems easy to deal with while building your team, you all know that you won't click Earthquake nor Close Combat safely against him with your Great Tusk.
Indeed, the unpredictability of Kingambit's Tera Type leads to undesirable gameplan conditions that will bait you into choosing the wrong strategy :
- Will-O-Wisp users such as Volcarona, Cinderace, Skeledirge, Rotom and Dragapult are all denied by Kingambit's Tera Fire
- Super Effective Attacks in Earthquake, Close Combat, or other moves are twisted into Resistances by Kingambit's Tera Flying or Fairy
- Defensive Options in the form of Dondozo, Iron Defense Corviknight or other defensive strategies relying on Teracristallization can be overwhelmed by Iron Head's Flinch, Critical Hits and by Kingambit's Tera Dark
While it's true you can force the opponent to use their Tera and then adapt to the Kingambit's variant, it is not difficult for a smart player to first wear down your whole team to put it in range of a +2 Kingambit, and then attempt to set up their Kingambit with a preserved Tera against your would-be check.
Though, Kingambit is prown to Trick Users in Rotom, Iron Valiant and Gholdengo, fears Spore from Amoonguss, Breloom or Brute Bonnet and has to avoid getting consistently crippled by eventual Hazards and sheer burst from Specs Dragapult's Draco Meteor or Gholdengo's Make it Rain.
Kingambit can also be surprised by Low Kick users such as Meowscarada or Kingambit itself, and Choice Specs Iron Valiant is a solid choice to Revenge Kill it due to its x4 resistance to Sucker Punch.
Kingambit seems important in the current Metagame as an offensive option to check Dragon / Ghost Typed attacks, it is very splashable on any team thanks to its typing allowing him to freely come in Defensive Pokemons such as Toxapex, Slowking or Amoonguss.
Over the last 5 SPL Weeks (Post Chien-Pao Ban), only Kingambit has managed to maintain positive Win Rate (above 50%) with a decent top 3 usage and tends to become the 2nd most used Pokemon of this tournament after Great Tusk.
Knowing new Pokemons will be added soon, there's no time for a new Suspect Test.
However, regarding the metagame in its actual state I definitely think it has the making of a Suspect-Worthy Pokemon.
Now I would like to know the following about your thoughts :
- What do you think about Kingambit in the current Metagame ?
- What are your ways to deal with Kingambit in most of your teams ?
Thanks for your attention !
Kingambit @ Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Flying / Fire / Dark / Fairy
EVs: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head / Low Kick / Tera Blast
We need to talk about Kingambit.
Who can confidently say they've never been reversed swept by a single Kingambit ?
While this Pokemon in itself seems easy to deal with while building your team, you all know that you won't click Earthquake nor Close Combat safely against him with your Great Tusk.
Indeed, the unpredictability of Kingambit's Tera Type leads to undesirable gameplan conditions that will bait you into choosing the wrong strategy :
- Will-O-Wisp users such as Volcarona, Cinderace, Skeledirge, Rotom and Dragapult are all denied by Kingambit's Tera Fire
- Super Effective Attacks in Earthquake, Close Combat, or other moves are twisted into Resistances by Kingambit's Tera Flying or Fairy
- Defensive Options in the form of Dondozo, Iron Defense Corviknight or other defensive strategies relying on Teracristallization can be overwhelmed by Iron Head's Flinch, Critical Hits and by Kingambit's Tera Dark
While it's true you can force the opponent to use their Tera and then adapt to the Kingambit's variant, it is not difficult for a smart player to first wear down your whole team to put it in range of a +2 Kingambit, and then attempt to set up their Kingambit with a preserved Tera against your would-be check.
Though, Kingambit is prown to Trick Users in Rotom, Iron Valiant and Gholdengo, fears Spore from Amoonguss, Breloom or Brute Bonnet and has to avoid getting consistently crippled by eventual Hazards and sheer burst from Specs Dragapult's Draco Meteor or Gholdengo's Make it Rain.
Kingambit can also be surprised by Low Kick users such as Meowscarada or Kingambit itself, and Choice Specs Iron Valiant is a solid choice to Revenge Kill it due to its x4 resistance to Sucker Punch.
Kingambit seems important in the current Metagame as an offensive option to check Dragon / Ghost Typed attacks, it is very splashable on any team thanks to its typing allowing him to freely come in Defensive Pokemons such as Toxapex, Slowking or Amoonguss.
Over the last 5 SPL Weeks (Post Chien-Pao Ban), only Kingambit has managed to maintain positive Win Rate (above 50%) with a decent top 3 usage and tends to become the 2nd most used Pokemon of this tournament after Great Tusk.
Knowing new Pokemons will be added soon, there's no time for a new Suspect Test.
However, regarding the metagame in its actual state I definitely think it has the making of a Suspect-Worthy Pokemon.
Now I would like to know the following about your thoughts :
- What do you think about Kingambit in the current Metagame ?
- What are your ways to deal with Kingambit in most of your teams ?
Thanks for your attention !
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