Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Has anyone tried experimenting with Cryogonal as a dedicated Wake Killer? You can get some more mileage out of it with RSpin and Recover.
late response but yeah i've been using tera water cryo as my go-to wake answer. cryogonal finds its way onto just about every team i make ever since morkal cryopilled me. it can also sometimes answer other sun-team stuff, but you have to play it well—freeze-dry does massive damage to tusk and severely chunks roaring moon. i've also tried experimenting with tera blast for unresisted stab post-tera, but results are inconsistent
I’ve gotten a few comments like this across the generation just given the sheer amount I post and the the fact between here and Twitter, I include my fair share of memes and jokes. Let me just set the record straight.

I think it’s a fair grievance to be upset if you believe something is happening from someone in a position of authority and then it is taken away. I also do not think that this is the case here though as every quickban has necessitated a radar and/or public notice, likely involving a survey. In addition, Roaring Moon hasn’t been discussed for tiering action in a long while. It seemed pretty innocent to me given this, but I am sorry if any signals got crossed along the way. That’s not my intent.

My intent is just to have fun and bring the community together. So many people got talking between here, the OU room, Twitter and Discord this afternoon and that was pretty awesome, in my opinion. I think this generation so far has been among the most stressful times for me ever on Smogon, so lightening the mood and shifting the focus is always a pleasure.
for the record, you've been doing a great job and this is the most approachable and human the council has ever felt. also, you should totally stealth-lift at least one clause for afd, not tell anybody (except, you know, the rest of the council), and see how long it takes for people to realize
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
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RMT Leader
Kingambit @ Leftovers
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD / 168 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Low Kick
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance

This is a set I've been running and been having success with, still gets walled hard by Great Tusk but its to beat other Kingambits that decide not to tera. I've seen something similar in SPL, I really like Cleave a lot to be honest, but it's fine because you still have Sucker Punch, you just have to rely on it much more (which can be annoying).

252+ Atk Kingambit Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 424-500 (114.9 - 135.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
I’ve gotten a few comments like this across the generation just given the sheer amount I post and the the fact between here and Twitter, I include my fair share of memes and jokes. Let me just set the record straight.

I think it’s a fair grievance to be upset if you believe something is happening from someone in a position of authority and then it is taken away. I also do not think that this is the case here though as every quickban has necessitated a radar and/or public notice, likely involving a survey. In addition, Roaring Moon hasn’t been discussed for tiering action in a long while. It seemed pretty innocent to me given this, but I am sorry if any signals got crossed along the way. That’s not my intent.

My intent is just to have fun and bring the community together. So many people got talking between here, the OU room, Twitter and Discord this afternoon and that was pretty awesome, in my opinion. I think this generation so far has been among the most stressful times for me ever on Smogon, so lightening the mood and shifting the focus is always a pleasure.
So it was a lie, smh.

To make it up to us, ban Meowscarada so we don’t have to see its ugly ass in the tier. It’s a win for the tier and our eyesight
 
For the record, I want to make clear I have a great appreciation for the work the Tier leaders like Finch have been doing. My comments on the Roaring Moon joke were primarily from a place of concern that reaction by those not in the know would be kneejerk and result in misinformation spreading, which potentially complicates social media communication at the minimum rather than the intended laugh that was had by some here on the forum.
 
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1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
To make it up to us, ban Meowscarada so we don’t have to see its ugly ass in the tier. It’s a win for the tier and our eyesight
growing up is understanding that Cat girls are not that cool

To basically put a topic for conversation

Iron Leaves @ Choice Band
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Psyblade
- Wild Charge
- Close Combat

I have been messing with this thing for a while, and it feasts upon anything that does not have U-Turn or is named Armarouge or Gholdengo, it's heavily prediction reliant of course, and missing out on night slash is a tragedy for gholdengo, but being able to just take a brainless dump on the tier is fun

tbh, most of the time you want meowscarada, but the main difference is that no dark typing means that you can actually enter on fairy moves, and if Great Tusk does not knock off in the same turn you get in, then the tusk is basically either dead or in life support forever
 

TCTphantom

formerly MX42
So it was a lie, smh.

To make it up to us, ban Meowscarada so we don’t have to see its ugly ass in the tier. It’s a win for the tier and our eyesight
Meowscarada is the truth. One day you will see the light my child.

Speaking of Meowscarada, its a far better suicide lead than Glimmora. Yeah Glim has mortal spin and Toxic Debris, but it often feels like dead weight in some mus. I much prefer offensive Glimmora if I have to use it.
 

Duck Chris

replay watcher
is a Pre-Contributor
Lol no way, Glimm as a lead is definitely much better than meowscarda. The only real benefit to meow over glimm is taunting Orth not to shed tail for free.
Yeah gonna disagree with this heavily. The higher speed and better tusk matchup alone wins this for Meow but throw in possibility of Taunt, Sucker Punch, stronger stabs, knock off, it's just way better.
 
Make Muk Meta

Checks Wake, Volc, Zoro-H, special Valliant, and any other special attacker

Drain Punch 2 shots Gambit and you can like 2 Kowtow Cleaves (w/o any SO boosts)\

Great for Drag Stacking Teams

Muk @ Assault Vest
Ability: Poison Touch
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Atk / 108 Def / 120 SpD
Careful Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Fire Punch
- Ice Punch

Edit - I peaked 1600 with this set
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
:Glimmora:
Can snipe tusk with Energy Ball
can remove hazards with mortal spin and cripple the opponent in the process
has rocks, spikes and t spikes, although thanks to its ability, you only really need rocks unless you're in a hazard stack HO
has an extra coverage move, power gem, earth power and sludge wave all good options
Has some options to shit on hatterene
better bulk

:Meowscarada:
HUMANIZED CAT GIRL, ideal for degenerates
Can snipe tusk with Leaf Storm, but sacrifices some good firepower in almost anything else
has spikes and t spikes for some reason, but no rocks
has taunt, knock off and sucker punch, good utility options
is faster
Immune to prankster bullshit


Am I forgetting something?
 

viivian

OU's sweetheart
is a Tiering Contributor
yeah both of them have their own niches that set them apart from each other. don't see how one is blatantly better as a lead pokemon than the other when they both have very valuable niches over the other that makes them more desirable as a lead in some scenarios and less desirable in others
 

Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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UU Leader
I actually think Meowscarada is a much better lead than Glimmora because of the lines it gives you when you're setting up other threats as HO so often tends to do. Glimmora is great at getting everything up instantly, but from there you're still facing the full brunt of whatever your enemy can throw at you and you have to deal with potential Toxics, Thunder Waves, Wisps and whatever else from stuff like Rotom and Toxapex. Glimm is also much more reasonable to prepare for since, depending on the team comp, you can even just anti-lead it with Tusk and deny it anything beyond a single TSpike. Meow on the other hand beats pretty much every common remover you're going to see (it doesn't KO them other than Tusk but it does prevent them from getting em up), and then doing something like Taunting a Toxapex, Orthworm or Amoonguss which turns otherwise awkward lines into very comfortable ones, hugely helpful in getting the ball rolling. Meowscarada also prevents you from being setup fodder for mons that just farm HO a bit like SubNP Hydreigon, Curse Garganacl etc. and has the leg up in the lead matchup against stuff like Greninja, so overall I feel it's just a much better choice. Glimm is ofc still good just bc sometimes you want that absolutely huge volume of hazards but it's generally unnecessary and imo leads to much worse scenarios in-game when using it.
 
Lead Meow has been effective vs me since it has taunt + can outright KO anti-leads like Valiant with Leaf Storm. However, I don't like using it. Always feels like you have to deal w/ 50/50s since faster mons like Pult just outright KO it w/ darts unless u Tera, U-Turn from Corv ain't fun, etc. Admitting I haven't used it enough & haven't expiremented using Tera on it, but Tera Dark Black Glasses just feels much better to me since Knock is hard for many Pokemon to switch into and it's Sucker Punch completely owns key threats like Pult, Floatzel, Wake, etc.

Idk if Glimmora is better or not, but I will say that Toxic Spikes are lethal vs many teams that don't have Clodsire or Iron Moth to absorb them.
 
Meow has a better match up against most Tusk and Gholdengo sets, while Glimm can beat Hatt. However the best lead for me is Tera Ghost Ting Lu, yeah, you use your tera on it, but all the job he gets done is worth. Even can 1vs1 Hatt after tera (but it isn't optimal).
 
Meta in terrible state.

1) Shed tail is uncomp as all hell lol (sorry to the dude who was saying Worm should be banned after post-Cyc ban and the room flamed him and said Worm is fine. We were wrong bro.)
Don't really need to write an essay on this one- wild how it took years to realize baton pass will never be balanced, and then allow this shit to run rampant. At one point we thought Pao was fine, and we were wrong. It's that time again to not be a weird fuck w a weird fuck ego and admit you were wrong lol. I was wrong about Worm. Your turn.

2) Illusion is legit uncompetitive af. I personally don't have too much of an issue w it since your average player just leads w it and it's v obvious. In the hands of a good player it is uncomp. Like on paper, u can't argue that it's a competitive ability. The fact that it's normal/ghost is also great for an Illusion mon for various, obvious reasons.
There are situations where you don't know if it's X mon or Zor. If it's X mon u need to hit it w A move or u lose, if it's Zor u need to hit it w B move/switch or u lose. It pairs really well w setup attackers such as Nite, since you're forced to play around a Dragon Dance or a Nasty Plot.
Again, personally I don't struggle w Illusion too much; however- it's not a competitive, balanced ability and definitely doesn't add anything positive to this dumpster fire meta.

3) Tera. Lmfao kings what are we doing. Council, please ffs just make the next suspect ban or no ban. The restrictions convolute the issue and unfairly give pro-tera an advantage. Activate all the neurons and synapses on this one boys.

Below replay from beyond based player Pinecoishot is the perfect example of everything wrong w this meta:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1828280442-a7outbctjh3er2pgbyj8fp7pcqs3zp2pw

Abuses Illusion? Check.

Abuses Shed Tail? Check.

Abuses Tera? Without a doubt.

But this player is just using the tools they were given and have access to.

In the short term, a QB on Shed Tail/Worm and a QB on Illusion for the sake of principle.
Long term, simple ban/no ban Tera suspect a week before Home or sooner.
 

Nashrock

be happy
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Any idea on Iron Jugulis? I've been using this set recently. As the nickname suggests, it does everything well except that hurricane never hits in front of tusk/valiant.

0 Accuracy (Iron Jugulis) @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Hurricane
- Flamethrower
- Taunt
 
Long term, simple ban/no ban Tera suspect a week before Home or sooner.
My brother in Christ at some point, you really have to ask yourself whether current gen OU is something for you. Being dissatisfied with the state of the meta is fine and wanting a different outcome for the tera suspect is too, but having a constant, raging hateboner for a meta and the decisions made by it's playerbase in a suspect test has to make you ask at some point if playing last gen OU or a different meta is better for you
 
My brother in Christ at some point, you really have to ask yourself whether current gen OU is something for you. Being dissatisfied with the state of the meta is fine and wanting a different outcome for the tera suspect is too, but having a constant, raging hateboner for a meta and the decisions made by it's playerbase in a suspect test has to make you ask at some point if playing last gen OU or a different meta is better for you
My esteemed brother in Christ Almighty, please avoid Reddit-tier "hateboner".
This is a meta discussion thread young King.
I come here periodically to express the aforementioned topic.

Please focus on the actual points I made- it was made simple for players to respond- I even numbered them for you.

Do you think Shed Tail is competitive?
How do you feel about Illusion?

Very, very simple stuff here.

When Tera is banned we can look back on these posts w fond memories and laugh at how people actually wanted this in the meta.

In the meantime, my brother in Christ who died for the world's sins, stick to the points made and address them correctly.
Do better. I'll show you how.

"decisions made by it's playerbase in a suspect test"
New toy syndrome and lack of foresight of average players. March 2023 if you think Tera is balanced and comp l2p, idk how else to put it.

"playing last gen OU or a different meta is better for you"
Why would I abandon a current meta that could be fixed by simply having another Tera suspect and a QB on Shed Tail?
 
Idk about you, but I always forget how ilussion works and always kill zoroark with no trouble thanks to brainless knock off spam and beyond the immunitys, it cant take anything to save its life
Players literally just lead it w sash and I'm ok Zoroark lmao...
However, technically, it's uncompetitive af.
I literally don't care if it stays but idk how a council dedicated to a balanced and competitive metagame hasn't at least looked at this issue.
 

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
Players literally just lead it w sash and I'm ok Zoroark lmao...
However, technically, it's uncompetitive af.
I literally don't care if it stays but idk how a council dedicated to a balanced and competitive metagame hasn't at least looked at this issue.
Probably because it's not an issue. Like Illusion is a dumb ability sure, but it's not causing major issues in the metagame, nor is it really taking any skill out of the game itself.
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
Players literally just lead it w sash and I'm ok Zoroark lmao...
However, technically, it's uncompetitive af.
I literally don't care if it stays but idk how a council dedicated to a balanced and competitive metagame hasn't at least looked at this issue.
Okay so im im phone so sorry if bad writing

In a tecnicalitty, yes, it could be regarded as a uncompetitive mechanic

Here is the thing, nobody cares. Because its attached to no broken pokemon. Think about Stakeout, in theory, it effectevly punishes you for switching into a resist because of the damage and you get plowed, but the are no pokemon with that ability that are into OU

Ilususion is easily played around and restricted to 1 mon

And when does ilusions get shatered, you get salty, which is a bad transition for BAN GARGANACL WOOO
 
Illusion would be uncompetitive in a better Mon that Zoroark. Just like Shed Tail was uncompetitive on Cyclizar but not on Orthworm despite what some people say. A lot of things that can be uncompetitive/broken depend on the Mon getting them, no one would have ever thought about banning Sand Veil or Snow Cloak if the only ability holders were Wugtrio and Glaceon Beartic.
 
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