firepon too please
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I think you make a good point and I would say yes, but 1) I don’t believe the council will test Kyurem again 2) that assumes top players agree with me. Which they don’t.
I think realistically if Volc goes, Kyurem would just be more broken and nothing would be done about it.
What would everyone’s thoughts be on a Hazards Clause? Wherein only a single unit, of a single hazard can be up at a time. So, a choice between Rocks, a layer of Spikes, a layer of Toxic Spikes, or Webs. This would be implemented within the team builder, so outright preventing a team from running different Hazard setting moves, but allow multiple copies of, in this instance, Spikes for team members to use. In that example, Glimmorra would have to run Corrosion if the team already had Spikes, Stealth Rocks, or Webs. Same for Ceaseless Edge and Stone Axe, okay if the team already is running Spikes or Rocks respectively, restricted otherwise if not.
I’d argue that the hazards metagame isn’t so much unbalanced or uncompetitive, as it is unhealthy. Defensive Pokemon are naturally punished more by hazards because of the flat HP cost, and especially in such a power crept metagame like SV. You are constantly repositioning and addressing environmental changes like Speed Booster altering a game‘s Speed Tier, adapting to an unorthodox set, or really Tera but that is it’s own can of worms. We have spoken before at the ease of setting Hazards, and the subsequent difficulty in, not so much removing the Hazards themselves, but finding a solid core that can consistently address whatever Hazard setter, in whatever team composition, etc. Moving into DLC2, we aren‘t as hard pressed to deny hazard setting with Lando-T Taunt, or just outright obliterating whatever is right in front of you thanks to even more power creep.
Hazards aren’t less potent or fundamental to the average SV game despite this however. I argue most teams are exaggerated, either using pivots that do not care or Regen (or both), or creating team compositions that rely less on positioning and more on sheer brute force a la Arch Rain, Kyruem, whatever else we find honestly.
Interested in people’s thoughts and would appreciate any criticism. I think dropping Ubers is better as a last resort, and I felt that looking towards more fundamental aspects of the metagame and engaging with them would lead to more constructive conversation.
I’d argue that the hazards metagame isn’t so much unbalanced or uncompetitive, as it is unhealthy. Defensive Pokemon are naturally punished more by hazards because of the flat HP cost, and especially in such a power crept metagame like SV. You are constantly repositioning and addressing environmental changes like Speed Booster altering a game‘s Speed Tier, adapting to an unorthodox set, or really Tera but that is it’s own can of worms. We have spoken before at the ease of setting Hazards, and the subsequent difficulty in, not so much removing the Hazards themselves, but finding a solid core that can consistently address whatever Hazard setter, in whatever team composition, etc. Moving into DLC2, we aren‘t as hard pressed to deny hazard setting with Lando-T Taunt, or just outright obliterating whatever is right in front of you thanks to even more power creep.
Hazards aren’t less potent or fundamental to the average SV game despite this however. I argue most teams are exaggerated, either using pivots that do not care or Regen (or both), or creating team compositions that rely less on positioning and more on sheer brute force a la Arch Rain, Kyruem, whatever else we find honestly.
Interested in people’s thoughts and would appreciate any criticism. I think dropping Ubers is better as a last resort, and I felt that looking towards more fundamental aspects of the metagame and engaging with them would lead to more constructive conversation.
Is the council trolling after several pages of “unban x” discussion or are they genuinely considering unbanning one of these Ubers? If its the latter, then dear god no.
For those who keep bringing these ubers up, I have to ask.
What would these mons add that we are lacking?
Lets take a look at two unbans. DPP Latias and BW Excadrill. DPP Latias provides the tier with a strong Dragon boasting an incredible defensive profile with its bulk, Spikes immunity, and utility. BW was being overrun by Reuniclus Spikes, with no good spinners outside of Rain, the tier was in a bad spot, Drill improved it by being a spinner that can 2HKO Jellicent while having a strong offensive/defensive profile.
The tier, even in its current state is fine, and we can resolve the issues within the meta without dumping ubers.
Could you imagine how braindead I’d be to have Solgaleo clicking Knock and Teleport to bring in a big wallbreaker. With Mola its at least exploitable and a bit passive. You are not one-shotting the 137/107/89 bulk pivot with Knock Off and reliable recovery. I’ve witnessed the Gen 8 Clef meta. We don’t need another bulky Steel, the ones we have are perfectly fine. We don’t need more Knock Off, every OU team has at least 1 or 2.
Or how bout Giratina? How the fuck are you keeping hazards off with this thing around? With Ghold you have a strong spinner that can beat it via Knock and STAB Headlong Rush. Giratina is bulky enough to live a fucking +2 hit from Chien-Pao, Tusk ain’t getting past this shit. Also no you can’t Defog cause Pressure lets you out stall its pp long-term. We don’t need this.
Don’t even get me started on Chi-Yu. Why would we want this? We got several ways to break Balance. Specs Tera Fire Overheat has no switch ins and all it would do is make people run HO or SpD Dachsbun. Can we stop crying about Balance being good rn?
I’m not going to tell people to stop with the discussions, but consider that the tier doesn’t need an unban and some of them might make the meta even worse like Giratina. If you wanna mess around with mid Ubers, there’s a tier called UUubers you can play right now.
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the post immediately before this: "hey lily gimme a list of bad ubers and we'll announce that we discussed them just to fuck with people lmao"
Hazards aren't a problem in a meta with tusk, boots, and lower ghold usage with stuff like ace, hatt, treads, maus and corv too. This restriction is also very arbitrary, if hazards are broken they should be banned, if not then nothing should be done.
Hazards are some of the only counterplay to playstyles like Sun for these defensive teams, limiting monsters like CB Gouging Fire that otherwise claim 6 kills and are only beaten with hazards+positioning.
I'd argue this is more of a point against hazard clause if anything, hazards are one of the easiest forms of universal counterplay and help vs all of these things. Limiting hazards restricts the counterplay to the majority of Pokemon.
I've used meloetta, and meloetta-p isn't bad. Sure, it requires a turn to setup, but with the 20% chance to get a sleep proc, it can be threatening. Then you have a 128/128 monster that can cc so much of the tier. In that regard, its cc is better than zama. Going full physical or special on meleotta I think is a waste of time. However, going mixed is really good on it and allows it to decimate some teams.
I've used t-wave Gambit, so I'll talk about it.
T-wave Gambit
I used this all the way back in the gliscor meta, and also more recently, and its a pretty darn good set. It does cripple a lot of mons, but losing kowtow hurts. However, this set does have a lot more midgame utility, and it can be suprising. One thing I would reccommend is don't immediately t-wave. That is going to not work well, especially if they have tusk. If there gambit answer is a ground type, just don't click the move, it won't do anything. Even if it isn't a ground type, then not clicking it allows you to see how they respond to gambit. Next time gambit threatens a sweep in their eyes, click t-wave. That will absolutely destroy the counter and make them have to deal with gambit much more immediately. Anything below about 320 speed will be outsped if you use max speed. A good partner to this set is hex ghold. Ghold and gambit do share a lot of the same checks/counters, and gambit t-waving them boosts ghold's hex to extreme levels. This also means that ghold itself doesn't have to run t-wave, allowing it to fit a coverage move in more easily. I would say this isn't gimmicky, its a genuinelly good set.
But I do like the other sets, I might try out AV Scizor some time.
I recommend reading this guide on dealing with Spikes.
Not only is this clause a bad idea, but also unnecessary. Removing hazards is not hard and playing around them ain’t either. If you let them get 3 Spikes up, that’s a teambuilding or skill issue. Tusk is incredibly consistent at spinning. Cinder shuts down offensive hazard stack while Hatt shits on many bulky hazard stacking builds. Corv is another option. Even in the Ghold matchup, you U-Turn and punish them with a switch to Darkrai, Hoopa-U, or Samu, especially if its Ghold Balance. Some of the good teams you see don’t even run hazard removal or spam Boots. Its a matter of not playing passively so they have less chances of actually getting hazards up.
Hazards are important from stopping monsters like Wogre or Specs Kyurem from getting free switch ins.
it's important to note that some playstyles require a more aggressive approach to hazard control than the guide makes note of. weather teams, for example, tend to hinge on a mon that's weak to rocks (atales, torkoal, or pelipper) getting multiple switch-ins over the course of a game while not holding boots, and often employ breakers that also don't use boots. i personally get around this by stacking hazard control—for example, on a sun team you might see me running both tusk and hatterene and putting rapid spin on the torkoal for good measure
Do people still really have more to say about dropping Ubers than the next suspect mon?
What do people think about Tera Dragon Volc?
What do people think about Tera Dragon Volc?
My man, you can‘t just assume someone doesn’t understand or is incapable of recognizing solutions to a problem, that is absurdly patronizing. I know people go to the forums and parrot rhetoric because they didn’t understand something on the ladder, you can’t always assume that.
I am speaking from the perspective from alleviating strain on defensive backbones. The metagame is extremely centralized and not exactly in a pleasant place for creative or interesting defensive innovations. I pointed out in my post the inherent flat HP cost with Hazards, there’s an argument that lowering by restricting Hazards allows for more longevity, explicitly with forgoing Boots for Leftovers if deemed necessary. Moreover, if the main way of addressing threats like Gouging Fire and Waterpon is obstructing their progress via hazards, then aren’t the Pokemon themselves an issue? If anything, aren’t they reinforcing because they encourage using hazards to address them?
That’s my point, it feels like Hazards are a catch-all solution that ends up constricting the meta and encouraging these exaggerated, explosive playstyles that are exhausting the player base. If I am wrong, please confront that rather than giving me a guide.
Thank you for the non-post. I specifically stated that because I am potentially wrong, and would like to be challenged and have my perspective changed. Even if it’s patiently false through discussion, at least it leads to constructive and efficacious output.
Not thanks for being brave???? why post????
He gave you a good response and listed reasons why a hazard clause would not be a good idea.
Defensive mons are not impacted more by a hazards metagame, in fact I would say it benefits them. Offensive mons are more limited due to the fact they have less opportunities to break a defensive core or have to use HDB in order to not cut down on their HP, thus reducing their damage. If we look on the defensive side of things, while yes, a few defensive mons do have to run HDB, lots don't. We can see this with ting-lu, who while it does appreciate not being chipped, prefers lefties over them. Most defensive mons also have recovery, even if hazards weren't around not having recovery means you are a worse defensive mon. Thus, defensive mons can afford to not run HDB.
While yes, these mons are potentially overpowered, it stops general offensive structures from overwhelming the meta. Let's look at weavile, a mon that is not overpowered. With this hazard clause, it could run another boosting item such as life orb a lot easier. This would make it a lot more threatening. Hazards are the easiest way to threaten offensive teams. Again, as 658Greninja said, hazard removal is not hard. Tusk is one of the best hazard removers in the tier, and an amazing defensive mon. Teams don't have to go out of their way to use it.
It feels like you're not looking at the defensive side of hazards, they are a catch all solution to offensive teams. Defensive teams can deal with hazards a lot easier.
I would also like to add, but what if you get encored into spikes? Would you just lose the game since you got 2 layers up? This feels like the sleep discussion again, trying to find a compromise when one isn't needed.
saying you're taking any criticism instead of just constructive criticism is the internet equivalent of taping a "kick me" sign to your own back
A hazards clause would be a massive violation of tiering policy (unless you ban all hazards, in which case why). It's an even bigger violation of cart accuracy, and you don't even have some archaic side Pokemon game to justify its existence. Sleep Clause was finally axed, and hazards aren't that big of an issue in the tier right now. If it does rise to be an issue, we can examine its setters (Gliscor in DLC 1) or their enablers (Gholdengo since... forever), but a blanket hazards clause is never going to be implemented no matter the state of the metagame.
Gee, hazards sure have been suddenly constraining and powerful in gen 9 out of the blue. If only there was a reliable way to remove them...
My main argument was that hazards are not a problem in tier and that counterplay to it is not limited, hence why I posted the guide. Most teams in SV OU are built to keep hazards out or minimize the effects of hazards. This isn’t even unique to Gen 9. There have been several teams from Gen 3 to Gen 6 simply don’t have removal, yet find success, and its not just HO.
Balance structures are doing great rn, better than ever. Players have remembered that Tusk is a really consistent form of hazard control and great mon in general, they started branching out from the standard Boots Spam Balances to more diverse Balance teams. Again, Corv as a Defogger is fine, as long as you pair it with good breakers that exploit Ghold it should be fine.
Also I want to state that I didn’t mean that hazards were the only ways of dealing with breakers like Wogre and Kyu, but hazards are often the best ways at dealing with them for Balance. Its been like that since the inception of hazards. A hazard clause would unironically nerf fat structures for no good reason because they often bank on chip damage to make progress, especially Stall.
SV OU is not an HO-infested meta like how GSC isn’t all Stall, but if you play overly passive, you’re going to play punish. Balancing safe and aggressive plays is important. Spikes incentivizes this, and I don’t see a problem with that.
I don't want this to come off as creepy or anything but in the absence of Morkal, need my intake of creativity once in a while. "Forgive me Father, for I have sinned." I am a fiend for this shit bro that's why I'm still in this forum. Also, you got a history of posts like this every so often so I ask you:
MAKE THIS A SERIES. I NEED Innovations & Concepts in OU as my alternative to Morkal posts. Where is he? Dunno, but, please do this for the sake of good forum content. A really, really long time ago in DLC 2 beginnings, I theorycrafted Mirror Coat Alomomola. It's an interesting option since mola is typically not very specially bulky. Except I also used Light Screen because Volcarona was really annoying. Though, this was just me personally
Good post. Will like
tested quite a bit with this. Any reqs for dealing with Garg? Feels like it 6-0’s the team. Especially Tera fairy defensive
There are a few ways to deal with it from what I could see.
Firstly, alomomola can take a salt cure for the team and regen the damage off. If it comes into something that is not salt cure, it can get a wish off.
Secondly, hoopa-u threatens Garg a lot. Knock + psychic noise destroys Garg, which will get chipped and destroyed. Aggressively use hoopa against it (though playing against Garg you always should be aggressive)
Finally, ogerpon can encore Garg into a useless move such as Id. From there you can either reposition or start fishing for ivy cudgel crits.
Of course, this is not as easy as it seems. You do need to play around it, but the team can deal with it decently well. It's just a bit of a difficult matchup.
also, if you can bait tera on something else and double into it, tusk can just click headlong rush and it can't set up or recoverspam fast enough to win the interaction
Yeah I found mola makes like negative progress and Ogerpon doesn’t do enough damage against defensive Garg. My problem is typically that Hoopa works but gets chipped very easily by salt cure+hazards.
Mola can usually stall it out a decent amount. It's not aiming to beat it purely, just take damage so teammates can do the damage without being chipped. Ogerpon can at least try to do some damage, but it's main deal is to lock Garg into something it doesn't want to. For example, if you chip Garg down into recover range, that is free entry for ogerpon as it can waste recover pp, forcing a switch.
This team looks like it doesn't directly deal with Garg, that is a weakness of it, but moreso by forcing it to be in situations it doesn't want to. I'd say a general scenario for that would be chip it down with tusk, and then when it gets into recover range, switch to ogerpon. As stated above, Garg struggles a bit with tusk.
Clef sometimes runs knock too on stall.
ok but consider: only legal source of sleep