Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[Bold School]

I think your characterization of Raging Bolt is off; it virtually only appears as a booster CM mon, or occasionally as lefties. It doesn't really function as a pivot or glue mon at all, even though you can technically use it that way, for the most part you're probably not going to.

Eh. I have tested both an Assault Vest slow pivot set with Volt Switch and a Grassy Seed Body Press set. Both seem to work fine. There is certainly room for Bolt to function as a pivot or a glue mon.

I don't agree with many of Storm Zone's takes lately, and a 1 seems a bit low even to me, but I do at least agree with them that Raging Bolt isn't a problem and can be a glue mon. Even the main set fits on a lot of different teams with only minor tweaks like Tera type or Weather Ball being included or not.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Morning Sun + Teleport Solgaleo is totally healthy in OU and by itself would be good for the meta... the problem is the offensive Solgaleo sets aren,t healthy at all, this lion has way too high offensive movepool and can kill in miriad ways, even with Special sets (gets CM + Stored Power + Morning Sun or Specs + Steel Beam or Agility + Meteor Beam). Under screens, its also one of the best Weakness Policy users to ever exist.

Nope, Solgaleo doesn,t belong to OU. Out of current Ubers, only Zamazenta Crowned and Giratina-A have a (very minor) case for being OU, but currently the moment hasn,t arrived for them to be tested.

I think Giratina-A is a no, the coverage and stab combo Giratina has as a whole is too good. Literally only Zamazenta Crowned and Lugia have actual very minor cases for dropping and with tera I don't see either being anywhere near okay in the tier as long as tera is still allowed.

 

[Heatranator]

Here's a revolutionary idea, how about we don't unban any mons and we have an actually good metagame for once?

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

stall is by far the hardest to build because good stall teams have to have an answer for almost anything in the tier

…don't all good teams have to have an answer for almost anything in the tier?

 

[heileone]

…don't all good teams have to have an answer for almost anything in the tier?

At the current moment it is way harder to build defensive teams because its harder to defensively answer stuff right now. Before DLC 2 it was the reverse, with the lack of offensive threats making it a lot harder to break defensive cores(This is why gholdengo was so good, you could afford it a lot of the time without being offensively overwhelmed).

 

[Heatranator]

At the current moment it is way harder to build defensive teams because its harder to defensively answer stuff right now. Before DLC 2 it was the reverse, with the lack of offensive threats making it a lot harder to break defensive cores(This is why gholdengo was so good, you could afford it a lot of the time without being offensively overwhelmed).

I would say the oppposite. Building defensive teams, in this case I'm talking about stall, is much easier since you don't have to offensively check as many mons as you would in more offensive teams. Sure, HO teams are easy to build because you don't have to worry about defense, but if you want to have any sort of defensive backbone while offensively threatening teams, then building offense is harder. It's because so many really defensive mons such as blissey, skarmory and dondozo check so much of the metagame that creating a sound structure is relatively easier than building offensive teams.
Of course, building stall teams isn't easy, but it isn't the hardest team style to build right now. I would think it of like a bell curve, the more you try to get an equilibruim of offense and defense, the harder teambuilding gets.
Unrelated meme

 

[ianlazerbeem]

…don't all good teams have to have an answer for almost anything in the tier?

To an extent, but with Teams that apply offensive pressure you can predict well and outplay the opponent to overcome bad matchups, using momentum to your advantage to place the opponent in a position where they're playing reactively, even if they have an on paper advantage. With stall, if you don't solve your problems in the builder, there's very little agency you have on the battlefield and you kind of just get walked all over - stall tends to create a lot more "yeah there's absolutely nothing I can do about that" positions

Are you saying stall is harder to build than offense? With stall you need to answer things defensively with specific mons and their attributes. With offense you need to answer mons with mostly positioning as well which is arguably more difficult to take into account.

You need to answer EVERYTHING defensively with specific mons and their attributes - you need to figure out how to best do this with 6 Pokémon, 6 Tera types, and 24 moves. I would disagree on "more difficult to take into account" - the option to position gives you much more flexibility in the builder that stall doesn't really have.

 

[Venuesaur]

Eh. I have tested both an Assault Vest slow pivot set with Volt Switch and a Grassy Seed Body Press set. Both seem to work fine. There is certainly room for Bolt to function as a pivot or a glue mon.

I don't agree with many of Storm Zone's takes lately, and a 1 seems a bit low even to me, but I do at least agree with them that Raging Bolt isn't a problem and can be a glue mon. Even the main set fits on a lot of different teams with only minor tweaks like Tera type or Weather Ball being included or not.

You can use it this way, and I have too. You can also use gouging fire as a defensive mon. The point is that, when I run into this mon on the opposing team, its probably cm booster/lefties. It's its flagship and most common set by far, so I'm weighting it like thats the set it will likely be.

 

[viivian]

…don't all good teams have to have an answer for almost anything in the tier?

the threat overlap that's come from this gen (plus movepool cuts and the recovery PP nerf) makes it much harder to build stall since you have to account for kyurem, gouging fire, ogerpon-W, mixed dragapult, heatran, rillaboom, walking wake, taunt roaring moon, etc. in some capacity when teambuilding. besides maybe heatran i don't think it's impossible for stall to beat any of these pokemon, however depending on your team's structure you're likely gonna have a bad time against at least a few of them

 

[SweetLou32]

Haven't looked at the forum in a while and we're still talking about unbanning ubers for the 4th month in a row lol. This forum just repeats itself why do we even have it.

 

[SDK03]

>Blissey in OU again

This format is genuinely irredeemable. How many times will it take before we take a hammer instead of a scalpel to the problem pokemon

Dude, Blissey’s still kinda ass. It only ever rises up when cracked Special Attackers (like Raging Bolt and Volcarona’s reintroduction) come along. Nothing to really care that much about tbh, and stall is kind of carried by Gliscor anyways.

Haven't looked at the forum in a while and we're still talking about unbanning ubers for the 4th month in a row lol. This forum just repeats itself why do we even have it.

I think it would improve a lot if we just banned the words “Lugia”, “Solgaleo”, “Mewtwo”, “Deoxys-Normal” and “Ho-Oh”.

 

[Heatranator]

Dude, Blissey’s still kinda ass. It only ever rises up when cracked Special Attackers (like Raging Bolt and Volcarona’s reintroduction) come along. Nothing to really care that much about tbh


I think it would improve a lot if we just banned the words “Lugia”, “Solgaleo”, “Mewtwo”, “Deoxys-Normal” and “Ho-Oh”.

Who tf is talking about dropping Mewtwo or Deoxys-Normal.

 

[Eeveeto]

I think Giratina-A is a no, the coverage and stab combo Giratina has as a whole is too good. Literally only Zamazenta Crowned and Lugia have actual very minor cases for dropping and with tera I don't see either being anywhere near okay in the tier as long as tera is still allowed.

I mean, 100 Base Special Attack + that bulk is really good, but unlike Lugia, it does bring something good to the meta as a Defogger vs which Gholdengo can,t safely switch-in. Its unlikely to come, but after Zamazenta Crowned I think its the best idea if we are into unbanning something. All the rest of the Ubers Tier is a hard no (except Lugia, but Lugia doesn,t bring literally anything positive to the meta at all).

 

[viivian]

stop talking about unbanning boxart legendaries man that is quite literally the last thing we need rn. please do something productive instead of arguing why koraidon would be balanced in OU

 

[j0nathan]

Yeah let's stop talking about Ubers.

Galarian Moltres was banned from UU. Does anybody have experience using that Mon in OU and is it any good?

 

[the23rdpower]

I can't blame people for thinking unbanning super legends would be neat in cases where it could potentially work but some suggestions really seem quite ridiculous, lol

 

[Heatranator]

Yeah let's stop talking about Ubers.

Galarian Moltres was banned from UU. Does anybody have experience using that Mon in OU and is it any good?

It would be so much better if it had roost, as then it could levarage its decent bulk to get more beserk boosts. Right now, its just outclassed by mandibuzz, which has the same typing but much better bulk and utility, which is more useful than the power goltres provides. Not a bad mon, but there is a reason why its D rank, its outclassed by the 7 other dark types in the tier.

 

[cyclonez_]

It would be so much better if it had roost, as then it could levarage its decent bulk to get more beserk boosts. Right now, its just outclassed by mandibuzz, which has the same typing but much better bulk and utility, which is more useful than the power goltres provides. Not a bad mon, but there is a reason why its D rank, its outclassed by the 7 other dark types in the tier.

gamefreak making the (honestly smart) balance decision to withhold reliable recovery from goltres in the same dlc they gave us calyrex-shadow will always be amusing to me

 

[Heatranator]

gamefreak making the (honestly smart) balance decision to withhold reliable recovery from goltres in the same dlc they gave us calyrex-shadow will always be amusing to me

I would say "oh but it doesn't have many coverage moves, so it can't be that broken".
Then I remembered in the same DLC, they released spectrier, who got banned despite having no coverage, unless you wanted to run mud shot, which lmao, you ain't glimmora.

 

[viivian]

gamefreak making the (honestly smart) balance decision to withhold reliable recovery from goltres in the same dlc they gave us calyrex-shadow will always be amusing to me

they also """balanced""" calyrex-shadow in its debut gen by giving it only two subpar moves to hit dark types only to give it the option to gain free STAB on fighting/fairy moves. i still need to know what game freak was cooking when distributing caly-S's stat spread

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I think it would improve a lot if we just banned the words “Lugia”, “Solgaleo”, “Mewtwo”, “Deoxys-Normal” and “Ho-Oh”.

there really haven't been serious arguments about the latter three (no one actually believes that shit because they're actually good in higher tiers), it's the first two and gira-a that are the main problems. just blacklisting those three mons would make a world of difference. hell, even solgaleo and gira-a largely don't have unban proponents anymore because they've demonstrated viability in uubers

 

[TCTphantom]

In terms of productive discussion, Gouging Fire is getting its test next week. I think we should discuss how dumb it is, but let's also disucss someting even more important: the suspect song. There are so many good fire based songs that I will dedicate time to listing them.

• Firework - Katy Perry: This is a great choice. Mainstream as hell, and Gouging Fire is a firework as in its a literal bomb that explodes all over the other team.
• Fire - The Crazy World of Arthur Brown: Oldie choice and a bit obscure, but this song slaps and come on, its called fire and its gouging fire
• Through the Fire and the Flames - Dragonforce: Imma be real, I know jack about the band, but this song kicked my butt in Guitar Hero III (the best guitar hero game), so that alone mkaes it a good suspect song.
• I'm On Fire - Bruce Springsteen: Its the boss. You gotta respect the boss. Gouging Fire is also on fire.
• Burn - Usher: The dude just played the superbowl, one of his best songs could be a good suspect pick for this mon.
• We Didn't Start the Fire- Billy Joel: We did not start the fire, a giant dinosaur dog did.
• Disco Inferno - The Trampps: Burn bay burn, OU's an inferno.
• Light my fire - The Doors: I am running out of puns

I swear if we get some garbo like Heat Waves I am going to vote DNB out of spite. I was denied Bad Moon Rising twice now for two moon related mons.

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Ok in an actual serious discussion, I am glad Gouging Fire is the next test. I feel like there is a lot more community unity towards testing it than other candidates. Both Roaring Moon and Ogerpon Wellspring also have vocal proponents for their tests, but right now I doubt either of them would be able to hit 60% reliably. The Kyurem test has me a bit shook; I think that its gonna be hard for some of these borderline cases to get a test where they will get above the cutoff. Wellspring had a massive gap between qualified and general: I could easily see it having a similar fate to Kyurem, who had similar scores from the qualified playerbase but managed to cling to OU still. I think as scary as some of these mons are, they just do not have the same united front that Gouging Fire has right now. Maybe in another few weeks things could change, but I think testing Gouging right now was a great call by the community at large.

 

[Heatranator]

In terms of productive discussion, Gouging Fire is getting its test next week. I think we should discuss how dumb it is, but let's also disucss someting even more important: the suspect song. There are so many good fire based songs that I will dedicate time to listing them.

• Firework - Katy Perry: This is a great choice. Mainstream as hell, and Gouging Fire is a firework as in its a literal bomb that explodes all over the other team.
• Fire - The Crazy World of Arthur Brown: Oldie choice and a bit obscure, but this song slaps and come on, its called fire and its gouging fire
• Through the Fire and the Flames - Dragonforce: Imma be real, I know jack about the band, but this song kicked my butt in Guitar Hero III (the best guitar hero game), so that alone mkaes it a good suspect song.
• I'm On Fire - Bruce Springsteen: Its the boss. You gotta respect the boss. Gouging Fire is also on fire.
• Burn - Usher: The dude just played the superbowl, one of his best songs could be a good suspect pick for this mon.
• We Didn't Start the Fire- Billy Joel: We did not start the fire, a giant dinosaur dog did.
• Disco Inferno - The Trampps: Burn bay burn, OU's an inferno.
• Light my fire - The Doors: I am running out of puns

I swear if we get some garbo like Heat Waves I am going to vote DNB out of spite. I was denied Bad Moon Rising twice now for two moon related mons.

-----------------------------------------------

Ok in an actual serious discussion, I am glad Gouging Fire is the next test. I feel like there is a lot more community unity towards testing it than other candidates. Both Roaring Moon and Ogerpon Wellspring also have vocal proponents for their tests, but right now I doubt either of them would be able to hit 60% reliably. The Kyurem test has me a bit shook; I think that its gonna be hard for some of these borderline cases to get a test where they will get above the cutoff. Wellspring had a massive gap between qualified and general: I could easily see it having a similar fate to Kyurem, who had similar scores from the qualified playerbase but managed to cling to OU still. I think as scary as some of these mons are, they just do not have the same united front that Gouging Fire has right now. Maybe in another few weeks things could change, but I think testing Gouging right now was a great call by the community at large.

Great song choices, I especially like Through the Fire and the Flames, because I freaking love that song.
Though I honestly would be happy with any song since I got the song choice I wanted for Arch with London Bridge is Falling Down, which I predicted beforehand.

 

[SaphirOmega]

Made a fun team ealier today and had a modest success with it (top500) :
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/hatterene-gambit-trick-room-core-ft-nu-top482.3738023/

 

[sims796]

Great song choices, I especially like Through the Fire and the Flames, because I freaking love that song.
Though I honestly would be happy with any song since I got the song choice I wanted for Arch with London Bridge is Falling Down, which I predicted beforehand.

It's also extremely appropriate. It describes everything about Gouging. Fire, Dragon, and how it'll burst your entire team into flames.