Announcement SV National Dex Suspect 9: Dream On

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sealoo

PaulGod
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:sv/darkrai:


Merry Christmas! The National Dex OU Council has decided to suspect Darkrai down from Ubers for the ninth test of Generation 9.

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For the next stage of the suspect process, we have Darkrai coming down from Ubers. It's no secret that Darkrai has been a name thrown out a lot when thinking of potential Ubers that could be deemed OU-worthy, so it was placed as an item on the most recent tiering survey. After five days once the votes were tallied up, Darkrai had received a 3.41/5, with a resounding amount of people heavily supporting the notion of some sort of tiering action being taken on it. As such, we deemed as a council that a suspect test would be appropriate.

Darkrai's offensive traits are astounding, sporting a 135 Special Attack in tandem with a stellar 125 Speed allowing it to get a jump on common Pokemon in the current meta, such as Iron Valiant and Tornadus-T. Furthermore, access to Nasty Plot turns it into an incredibly dangerous wincon with an array of coverage to complement Dark Pulse, such as Sludge Bomb and Focus Blast. With Z-Moves also being a potential option for Darkrai, it has access to a terrifyingly strong one time Dark-type attack with Darkinium Z equipped, but it can also run Fightinium Z to turn Focus Blast into a reliable option for destroying Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Mega Mawile. It can also effectively wield Terastallization to become a Poison-type most notably, which can turn the tables of revenge killers such as Choice Scarf Urshifu-R, Choice Scarf Tapu Lele, and Zamazenta. Alternatively, it can drop Nasty Plot for a fierce all out attacker set wielding Ice Beam to reliably OHKO Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Garchomp.

However, Darkrai is not without its flaws. Its Speed, while good, still leaves it behind common metagame threats such as Tapu Koko, Mega Lopunny, and Zamazenta. This is not to mention common Choice Scarf users such as Tapu Lele, Urshifu-R, and Kartana. While it can Terastallize to flip these matchups, it leaves it without a Z-Move and often relying on a relatively weak move in Dark Pulse to break through neutral targets. Furthermore, 70/90/90 bulk while not terrible, is certainly not good and leaves it with even worse matchups into the aforementioned revenge killers. Darkrai also lacks a real ability, with Bad Dreams being highly situational accompanied by Darkrai itself having to rely on Hypnosis to induce sleep, which is incredibly unreliable especially when considering Darkrai's frailty. Defensively, Pokemon such as Alomomola and Toxapex can scout all out attacking variants while Nasty Plot can suffer versus Zamazenta and often find itself missing the ability to OHKO the omnipresent Landorus-T or Gliscor.

Given the litany of options to revenge kill Darkrai and appropriate pivots or checks to it found on many teams, the council feels it is just to suspect Darkrai.

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  • Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
  • The table for this can be found below:
    [*]
    GXEminimum games
    8050
    80.249
    80.448
    80.647
    80.846
    8145
    81.244
    81.443
    81.642
    81.841
    8240
    82.239
    82.438
    82.637
    82.836
    8335
    83.234
    83.433
    83.632
    83.831
    8430
  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be ND9DRK. For example, I could sign up as ND9DRK sealoo.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular National Dex ladder for this suspect test, and Darkrai will be legal throughout the entire suspect test.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • The suspect test will run for approximately two weeks, lasting until January 7th at 11:59 pm (GMT-5), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will open after 24 hours to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Here's a list of rules that we expect all posters to follow:
  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the National Dex Council and the National Dex Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokémon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
    • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokémon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokémon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result of this suspect, then so be it.
    • This is not the place to complain about the suspect process. Please PM Kyo or Kaede if you have any questions regarding this, and any broader questions about this test.
Keep in mind that the outcome of our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.
 
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I was one of the people who said Darkrai would ruin the tier and I’ve unfortunately been proved wrong. While it has a good speed tier (383), it is honestly pretty lacking in power. With such low defenses, it gets one shot back by a number of strong attackers while failing to OHKO them first:

:charizard-mega-y:
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 237-280 (79.7 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darkrai in Sun: 310-366 (110.3 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:Ogerpon-wellspring:
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 186-219 (61.7 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 272-320 (96.7 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

:gouging-fire:
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gouging Fire: 285-336 (81.1 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Gouging Fire Heat Crash (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 295-348 (104.9 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The list continues, my point is that Darkrai, while threatening, can’t actually pick up OHKOs for a sweep even at +2. Even if it doesn’t get outright KO’d in return, Darkrai finds itself getting chunked for big damage while the enemy pivots out into a real check. It also gets outsped by very common choices like Zamazenta, Lopunny, and Koko, not to mention the million scarfers that beat it into oblivion.

It also has minor 4mss, on choice sets it wants Trick but really likes the coverage of Ice Beam, on nasty plot sets it still likes Ice Beam but focus blast and sludge bomb are both crucial.

Overall, I don’t think this meta is very favorable to Darkrai at the moment. We have a lot of fast offense running around which it doesn’t match up well into. I will say that Nasty Plot variants are a nightmare for bulkier balance/stall teams without Clodsire, who I consider its only reliable defensive wall. In another time, Darkrai could be seen as problematic but for now I unfortunately cannot see a world where it gets banned.

(Please restore dark void to its former glory and also give darkrai better stab. Maybe a move super effective vs fairy, or perhaps one that instakills any pokemon not Darkrai. Thanks game freak in advance)
 

Kyo

In Limbo
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My initial thoughts on Darkrai: :sm/darkrai:

Darkrai @ Choice Specs
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast
- Trick/Knock Off

This is the set I've been using the most and having the most success with. Essentially like having a specs Hydreigon but actually slightly stronger and the speed tier is so underrated. Speed ties with Weavile and they risk being 2hko'd if you tera, have any chip, or click sludge bomb so it's really only susceptible to pursuit trapping from Ttar. Fast trick users are quite good in current meta imo as a catch all to stop various setup mons. Having knock off as a 4th move though is fantastic as well. Very simple to predict switch ins like garg, pex, clod, chansey, etc and start chipping them down without needing to lose your specs.

Darkrai @ Psychium Z
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Bomb
- Hypnosis
- Nasty Plot

Completely unreliable but the potential to rng through certain teams can't be denied. Arguably even a bit uncompetitive but it falls flat on its face too often.

Darkrai @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot

Good wallbreaker, nothing crazy but it's viable for sure. NP Hoopa Unbound wishes it had this speed tier.

Other sets I haven't used yet: scarf, subplot, some kind of 4a non-choiced? I doubt any of these are good besides maybe subplot. Tldr final thoughts after the first ~40 something hours I think this mon is probably not broken but is at least an A rank if not A+ threat that needs to be respected.

edit: I'm about halfway through my reqs rn 14-1 I'll drop a team I've been using
Mola Aegi Balance (pokepast.es)
 

Kyo

In Limbo
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
National Dex Leader
I don't play the tier and only faced Darkrai three or so times, however, I've talked with other players and it doesn't seem as that big of a deal. It needs to use NP to do big damage and even then doesn't break stall or even bulky pokemon that can KO it back. Idk about offense but I'm pretty sure offensive teams can just outspeed it/take a hit and KO it back.

https://pokepast.es/b1574942edb8c122

I was given this team, it's not very good but I'm pretty sure good players will be able to fix it or smth.

View attachment 587666
Announcement - SV National Dex Suspect 9 - Voter Identification Thread | Smogon Forums

Suspect reqs should be posted in this thread ^ make sure you read the OP before posting, thanks :)
 
After getting reqs and playing for a bit on the ladder I've come to the conclusion that Darkrai isn't really busted. The meta is not kind to it, and most offense teams will have no problems outpacing it with things like Booster Valiant/Boulder, priority, and the like. A good stall team with Unaware Clodsire should also be able to wall any NP sets effortlessly, although Trick from choiced sets could annoy them. Generally I think balance teams are the ones that might struggle the most with Darkrai. However, that being said I still don't want Darkrai in the tier, and I will explain why. What exactly does Darkrai contribute to the metagame, besides being something that you can get cheesed by if you're unlucky or careless? If Darkrai is allowed in the tier, I'm sure some players will try some cheesy Z-Hypnosis or Hypnosis+Tera sets to try to steal games in tours. I think freeing Darkrai increase the tier's overall volatility with things like Hypnosis accuracy and matchup dependence.

Here's a thought question: would you still consider testing Darkrai in the tier if it still had an intact 80% accurate Dark Void? What difference does the Dark Void nerf make for the opponent if Darkrai does manage to land Hypnosis (you realistically only need to successfully induce sleep once in a fast-paced game)? Can relying on a move's lower accuracy really be considered "counterplay"?
 
After getting reqs and playing for a bit on the ladder I've come to the conclusion that Darkrai isn't really busted. The meta is not kind to it, and most offense teams will have no problems outpacing it with things like Booster Valiant/Boulder, priority, and the like. A good stall team with Unaware Clodsire should also be able to wall any NP sets effortlessly, although Trick from choiced sets could annoy them. Generally I think balance teams are the ones that might struggle the most with Darkrai. However, that being said I still don't want Darkrai in the tier, and I will explain why. What exactly does Darkrai contribute to the metagame, besides being something that you can get cheesed by if you're unlucky or careless? If Darkrai is allowed in the tier, I'm sure some players will try some cheesy Z-Hypnosis or Hypnosis+Tera sets to try to steal games in tours. I think freeing Darkrai increase the tier's overall volatility with things like Hypnosis accuracy and matchup dependence.

Here's a thought question: would you still consider testing Darkrai in the tier if it still had an intact 80% accurate Dark Void? What difference does the Dark Void nerf make for the opponent if Darkrai does manage to land Hypnosis (you realistically only need to successfully induce sleep once in a fast-paced game)? Can relying on a move's lower accuracy really be considered "counterplay"?
This is such a cope argument it makes me feel I'm back at OU pre-DLC2. If a Pokémon ain't broken or unhealthy to the tier there's no such thing as "what it brings to the tier", if it ain't broken it should be unbanned end of question. Darkrai is not a broken mon with no Counters or checks or if they exist are shaky or low tier shitmons, a match up fish mon who forces the tier to adapt to it, something which forces you to use extremely niche or bad pokemon to not get screwed by it, overcentralized to the point you be at worse not using it or using it invalidates an entire playstyle or type. Darkrai ain't broken, offensively and defensively there are many ways to keep it in check and honestly the hypnosis set is such a garbage set, Valiant could pull the same thing it does but better why it doesn't? Because if you miss you're screwed, the one mon who can pull it of nicely is Xurkitree and that's because Electric is a way more synergic type than dark and Bolt+Ground/Dragon coverage coming of SpA that huge is nasty.
Now to your questions:
Would you still consider testing Darkrai in the tier if it still had an intact 80% accurate Dark Void?
No. The difference of 60 to 80 is HUGE. Is like asking why people bother using Flamethrower but not inferno who has guaranteed Burn and higher power but 50 chance of miss.

What difference does the Dark Void nerf make for the opponent if Darkrai does manage to land Hypnosis (you realistically only need to successfully induce sleep once in a fast-paced game)?
That's the thing IF you can hit. It's a coin-flip and if you're wrong you lose the mon and even if you land it's not guaranteed you win since there's an entire team you yet to face.

Can relying on a move's lower accuracy really be considered "counterplay"?
The tier has plenty of ways to keep Darkrai in check on its good sets NP+3 and Scarf, the idea of needing a "counterplay" to a bad set is preposterous. The tapus are everywhere and two of the makes hypnosis useless, stall doesn't care about sleep, offensive teams have ways around fast threats because we're in a booster meta so having a way around fast special threats like Valiant and Volca is a must. No good team in the tier is getting threatened by it. I ask people don't let something which is clearly not broken to be in the shadow realm because you dislike it facing it. I hate facing stall, Alomomola, Gliscor, Zard-Y, MChan, and others but they still have their place in the meta and so is Darkrai.
Closing thoughts: Ban Terastalization, that's one thing it has no place here.
 
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Closing thoughts: Ban Terastalization, that's one thing it has no place here.
I don't appreciate your brusqueness but ig all is forgiven for this line

EDIT: Also I'm aware Hypnosis sets are bad, and I would probably never use them since the accuracy is too low, but sooner or later somebody is going to try to cheese with it and happen to get lucky.
 

Oculars

REVERSE SHAMONE
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EDIT: Also I'm aware Hypnosis sets are bad, and I would probably never use them since the accuracy is too low, but sooner or later somebody is going to try to cheese with it and happen to get lucky.
Theres already a million things you can cheese with and get lucky, i could run around with Z-Flash block sub leech seed ferrothorn + swagger sub protect clefable and cheese past all kinds of things but its not consistent, could even run zap cannon dragonite and cheese all kinds of stuff but none of these sets are consistent which is what matters I mean they even have an entire mon called sub glare serp that can cheese any of its counters assuming good hax. Hypnosis/sleep powder sets are overhyped, something like venusaur can outspeed nearly everything in sun and hit 82% wide lens sleep powders but it still isnt broken in the tier.
As for what darkrai contributed to the tier its a great special sweeper with nasty plot sets that offers a good speed tier for webs teams and BO teams alike, it does well into common alomomola + gking + ferrothorn + bird cores which will freshen up the metagame a bit by changing these to check darkrai. This tier has no real strong special dark type attackers outside of greninja and it would be nice to have one that can boost stats.
 
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