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To Clarify, since I will admit the point is a bit lost; I was making a general point that I believe that we should always try our utmost to preserve the generational mechanic, and that I believed the same for Dynamax, but think that in the end, Dynamax was too much and it wasn't possible to save it whilst keeping the game fun and competitive. I do not believe the same is true of Terastalisation.

Terastalisation is in my opinion balanced because it is nowhere near abusable as Dynamax was. Dynamax gave people high powered moves that directly set effects that boosted power of moves, or boosted stats, it created unstoppable snowbally mons that as others have pointed out were countered only by Dynamax, which was a problem as it made the entire game revolve around it. Terastalisation on the other hand, can be countered by anything, not just other Tera users, and I am of the opinion that the boosts you get from it, whilst still useful and powerful, are more in the realm of the power boost Pokémon get from a Mega evolution. Now, there are still issues with the Tera mechanic, which I have highlighted in my post, but I do not believe they are great enough to ban it outright, instead I think restrictions would bring it in line (but I won't elaborate further on those restrictions right now as, as mentioned by our mods, that's not the topic right now).


Ok, Barraskewda:
- Any Weather (including your own rain)
- Unburden + Terrain (One of my options, I am a Kokolucha Player)
- Trick Room
- Immunity abilities like Water Absorb and Storm Drain
- Focus Sash + Endeavor Revenge killers (My other main Counter)
- More of a soft counter, but I think Priority in General is pretty decent at chipping at it.
- Another soft counter, though they have undeniably become less good, and I will admit I personally haven't personally tested them to 100% confirm this, I feel like anything that resists Skewda and has good defences, especially in combination with Toxic/Burn and protecting moves, can also halt it to an extent.

Dragonite:
- Anything that blocks priority, particularly Tapu Lele
- Ghost types with decent defenses.
- Steel Types and Rock types with decent defenses (particularly ones that are Ground immune, Corv says Hi)
- Hazards in general help a lot.
- Again, Sash revengers are pretty decent.

Obviously, these aren't necessarily all hard counters, and there's some that are better than others, and I don't think it's worth going through every single mon as it's not productive to the discussion. The point of that point was that I personally think the strength of these Tera options is overblown.
It doesn’t matter if Tera is less powerful than dmax because dmax is probably the most broken thing to every grace OU, including deoxys attack in gen 5.
Any counters that use focus sash are invalid because this is an extremely hazard centric meta. No weather setters or terrain setters or trick room setters can switch into barraskewda. The only relevant water absorber drops to psychic fangs.
As for dragonite, it’s generally more possible to counter, but at the same time it screws over basically any kind of offence for free and most of what you’ve listed as a counter is just setup fodder
 
i honestly genuinely think the terastializing mechanic should stay.

the mechanic in itself is really fun to me and brings so much variety to the game. giving so many unused mons new potential strategies that actually make them more viable. this would make playing in this gen so much more diverse compared to any other gen because of the amount of ways tera can be used.

Defensively i would say its actually very balanced and the only change that would make it more fair would be to preview the tera type for each mon with the option to use it. covering its the mon's type weaknesses allowing them to have an easier time being defensive while also letting them still have another weakness to exploit is more than fair imo. the only reason i believe tera previews should be a thing defensively is because of setup mons unexpectedly terastializing to a resist or immune to the expected move and getting free turns to setup.

Offensively is where the actual problem with the mechanic is, for the most part its actually fine and can be countered more or less but there are a few specific cases where the 2x STAB bonus breaks the metagame. this mainly applies to a few mons that already had very high attack/special attack stats combined with very high base power moves/weather damage boost and good speed control, adding 2x stab to that makes it impossible to defend against even by type resistances. there aren't actually many that meet this criteria but the ones i noticed are Melmetal, Blaziken, Barraskewda, Floatzel, Urshifu and maybe Espathra.

And for the argument that I've seen seeing mentioning how "fun is subjective" yes that is true but removing tera would leave the game the same way as it was in gen 8 in terms of game mechanics and gen 8 nat dex has gone on for a very long time so the people who did enjoy the game without tera already had it that way for years, i think its time for the people who want a new mechanic to finally get one, especially one as unique and game changing as tera types. It will affect the competitive scene but after a few changes to balance the mechanic out it should remain fair competitively while also being a lot more enjoyable to a lot of people. (as competitive as pokemon gets anyway considering crits, status and flinches)

(btw I'm not as experienced or as knowledgeable in Pokémon showdown compared to a lot of you guys so feel free to tell me if I'm wrong)4

also idk how this works, do i just put in the voting requisites here to be able to vote or?

Capturef.PNG
 

R8

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- Any Weather (including your own rain)
- Unburden + Terrain (One of my options, I am a Kokolucha Player)
- Trick Room
- Immunity abilities like Water Absorb and Storm Drain
- Focus Sash + Endeavor Revenge killers (My other main Counter)
- More of a soft counter, but I think Priority in General is pretty decent at chipping at it.
- Another soft counter, though they have undeniably become less good, and I will admit I personally haven't personally tested them to 100% confirm this, I feel like anything that resists Skewda and has good defences, especially in combination with Toxic/Burn and protecting moves, can also halt it to an extent.
When people say "something lacks answers", it is not about the raw number of things that can be an answer to something, but moreso how reasonable would it be to include said answers in every team - since you always want some ways to deal with each relevant threat in the metagame - while having an overall functioning team. For example, if there is a pokemon (let's call it Charles) that beats every team except the ones including an LC Pokemon, it still would be broken. Sure, there are a lot of LC Pokemon and thus Charles' answers, but would it be reasonable to include one LC Pokemon in each team? No, because LC Pokemon are just awfully outclassed by fully evolved Pokemon in any other matchup.
In addition to this, if for example Charles not only loses to LC Pokemon but also loses to a good pokemon such as Heatran (But still 6-0es the rest of the metagame), it would still be not worth running because it is not reasonable to ask every team to either bring Heatran or an LC Pokemon.

Smogon wants to put emphasis on the playing skills, and if a Pokemon impact on the metagame basically is "I win unless the opponent brings one of the otherwise garbage/ultraspecific Pokemon that beats me" (So effectively removing the relevance of each players in-battling skills), it probably is not worth keeping around. Ban Charles imo.


The answers you have listed are too specific to be fit on every team, are not enough to stop Barraskewda as a whole, or are just not worth to run in general.

-Changing weather is something restricted to weather teams, and you can't assume you'll be able to reset the weather all the time, as Rain teams are very offensive, and getting a free turn against them is not always possible. Furthermore, you still have to find a way to check Barrask even when Rain isn't up, as it still a threatening Pokemon on its own right.
-Unburden+Terrain is not something you can fit on every team either EDIT: Also all of them are slower than Barrask under rain lol, and is not sufficent counterplay either: Hawlucha can only revenge kill once. Barraskewda can just switch out, and unless Hawlucha wins immediately Barraskewda will just win later in the game if that was your only way to deal with it.
-Trick room is not only restricted to a very specific kind of team built around the move, but also has a greater overall issue: Trick Room can't be up at all times, and you need a free turn to set it up. Sure, Barrask will not be a threat while Trick Room is up, but what are you going to do during the turns it is not up?
-Immunities is a quite valid point, but has two main issues:
There is only two mons that are good mons worth to run aside from being water immunities : Gastrodon and Clodsire, that aren't even that great at switching into it since physically defensive sets still can be 2HKOed by Close Combat or Drill Run respectively (252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 189-223 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO, 252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 272-322 (58.6 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Furthermore, Rain always bring Ferrothorn, so even if you manage to check Barraskewda with a water immunity, Ferro is just going to take advantage of them and set hazards.
-Focus-Sash + Endeavor is completely invalidated hazards, something pretty much every team run due to how good they are. They also can directly go on Ferrothorn to break your sash, as Endeavor is a contact move, or just click Flip Turn on barrask if this is an 1v1 situation. Counterplay should almost always take Hazards into account, as you can't assume being able to keep them off at all times, especially since removing them (if you get the opportunity to - which is not guaranteed at all) essentially gives a free turn to the opponent, which they can take advantage of to break through your team.
-Priority is kinda valid if we assume that chipping the fish would be enough to deal with it (which is not the case!), though Barrask resists some of them (Ice Shard/BPunch), however you will have to ensure that your priority user is a threat in general to rain otherwise you are just losing. Imagine if you brought M-Scizor, sack something to let M-Sciz safely get into the field, just for it to give a free switch to something like Zapdos that threaten to get an other kill, can you really say that you have enough counterplay to Barraskewda?
-There are bulky stuff that can somewhat switch into Barraskewda to take its hits, but that's the whole deal with Tera water: It hits so hard that you will have to be a bulky resist such as Toxapex and Ferrothorn to take the hit comfortably, and you will have to take into account the fact that Barraskewda can keep the momentum against them with Flip Turn if those are the only counterplay you brought to it, restricting your build options even further.


- Anything that blocks priority, particularly Tapu Lele
- Ghost types with decent defenses.
- Steel Types and Rock types with decent defenses (particularly ones that are Ground immune, Corv says Hi)
- Hazards in general help a lot.
- Again, Sash revengers are pretty decent.
-Lele can only revenge kill if it has a scarf, and has to win the FocusBlast/Moonblast vs Tera mindgame. Otherwise you could sack Lele to get terrain up but then you still need something able to revenge kill it at +1.
-About the ghost/steel/rock types : You def should give concrete examples instead of generic categories : there is a lot of bulky ghost/steel/rock types, but not all of them are really worth putting into teams. Also they need to be able to do something back to dragonite as well - which is not guaranteed, as dnite still is pretty bulky and has multiscale, and can sometimes even wall them with roost sets.
-Boots exist + Hazards do not OHKO Dragonite as well. Yeah sure they help, but you can't always assume you are going to have them up + they are obviously not enough. This is true with anything weak to rocks - not exactly on topic, but this video about protect ho-oh in dpp Ubers illustrates how ho-oh manages can be an immense threat in a metagame where removing rocks is pretty much impossible.
-I already went over sash.


TLDR:
Generally, making a list of stuff that beats a Pokemon is NOT a sufficient argument, otherwise you could argue that absolutely anything is worth unbanning. For example, i could go like:

Hey guys, we should unban Primal Groudon from natdex OU because there is a lot of counterplay to it! Like:
-Any faster ground type threaten it with ground moves (Landorus-T, Iron Treads, Garchomp, Great Tusk, etc...)
-Lati twins wall most of its sets, and outspeed it
-Any set lacking fire moves is dealt with by steels immune to ground (corv, skarm, bronzong, celesteela, orthworm (lol)).
-It is very slow, a lot can outspeed it and kill it once chipped, especially since it is much less bulky specially speaking.
-Neutral to rocks and has no recovery, so probably quite easy to chip
-Focus Sash (or anything bulky enough to take a hit) + Counter
-Solrock and Lunatone resist its stab combination, and wall any set without toxic/solarbeam/SD
-Ditto can revenge kill any set
-Golduck is faster and can kill it with a water move since it ignores Desolate Land

-...

This is fucking Primal Groudon though. Every single thing in the game has multiple counterplay options, but what matters in the end is : are those options really reliable enough? And if they are, is it reasonable to fit one of these options in every team? What if those options make my team significantly worse in other MUs?
 
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Still been playing rounds with this on ND and I still am not convinced (and I don't think I ever will be) that Terastal as a mechanic is the full problem. I have played several battles experimenting with Terastallizing, and I still believe the Mechanic can hinder you as much as help you. Losing a pokemon just after you Terastallize it is already a serious issue as it robs you of the chance to use it again. Not to mention, you can't terastallize pokemon that have Z-moves or Mega-Evolve, which in itself is a smart decision. What a lot of people are calling "dumb luck" seems to me like careful strategy a lot of the time. The "It doesn't matter if I know if I'm unprepared" argument doesn't hold a lot of water to me either. There are points in chess where you aren't in checkmate, but your opponent is still definitely going to win just by having an advantage. I think Terastallizing is still a very strategic aspect of the metagame.

I continue to maintain my assertions that Terastal should not be banned, as it should have first tried to have limits and balances placed on it (especially when I still believe there are simple and effective fixes that will work. I know people say that's not the point of this thread but I do think knowing there are better ways to go about it is a good argument against the ban)
 
Dynamax gave people high powered moves that directly set effects that boosted power of moves, or boosted stats, it created unstoppable snowbally mons that as others have pointed out were countered only by Dynamax, which was a problem as it made the entire game revolve around it. Terastalisation on the other hand, can be countered by anything, not just other Tera users, and I am of the opinion that the boosts you get from it, whilst still useful and powerful, are more in the realm of the power boost Pokémon get from a Mega evolution.
I think the impact of Terastilize is being underspoken honestly. While not as blatantly apparent as Dmax, tera still lets pokemon gain immense power through same type tera and, without specific counterplay (i'll touch on this in a moment), those mons can spiral out of control quickly. It can also very easily let set up sweepers turn would be checks into opportunities to sweep by changing into an advantageous type, and there usually is only so much the opponent can do (and sometimes not much at all). This ability to beat pokemon that on paper should beaf them instead, isn't that different from dmax's capacity to let mons beat their checks, by granting boosted HP to take hits and powered up stabs that grant stat boosts.

There is a sentiment i've seen that some pokemon aren't meant to boost certain stats as a balancing tool, so by granting them the access to do so through such tools (dmax) it throws that balance out. This also is true of type match ups. Pokemon aren't designed to be able to beat certain types of pokemon normally, but through terastilize they can flip bad match ups and win.

As far as comparing it to mega evolution, that is much more rigid a mechanic and change, and such the way you play around a mega pokemon is generally the same wag you would any pokemon. Counterplay is very laid out through their stats and typings and this can't change suddenly, unlike terastilize which has many possibilities for pokemon.

- Any Weather (including your own rain)
- Unburden + Terrain (One of my options, I am a Kokolucha Player)
- Trick Room
- Immunity abilities like Water Absorb and Storm Drain
- Focus Sash + Endeavor Revenge killers (My other main Counter)
- More of a soft counter, but I think Priority in General is pretty decent at chipping at it.
- Another soft counter, though they have undeniably become less good, and I will admit I personally haven't personally tested them to 100% confirm this, I feel like anything that resists Skewda and has good defences, especially in combination with Toxic/Burn and protecting moves, can also halt it to an extent.
Okay so first, i wanna say thank you for honestly responding with answers. This helps make discussion flow and be more constructive. Now then,

Weather: as counterplay to Skewda this simply isn't reasonable because this depends on having a weather setter that replaces rain, which isn't something you just slap on.
Unburden: This is again, very dependant on teams since Unburden users can only fit on certain teams generally.
Trick Room: Also generally a team thing, as you aren't slotting trick room on a random mon generally.
Immunities: We have a shortlist of viable immunities, and neither are greaf into Skewda anyways, with psychic fangs beating Clod and Close Combat beating Gastro (unless it runs physdef, which isn't really ideal anyway).
Focus Sash+Endeavor: this strategy as a whole is not reliable due to the existence of hazards.
Priority: This can work in theory, but the way rain teams are structured it is entirely possible to switch to another teammate to absorb the hit (ex. Mscizor which invited Zapdos).
Tanking: This again is technically possible but there is again an extreme shortlist of actual switch ins, which I think is limited to pex, ferro and slowbro, and all three can be pivoted on with Flip Turn to bring in a different teammate to threaten them.

- Anything that blocks priority, particularly Tapu Lele
- Ghost types with decent defenses.
- Steel Types and Rock types with decent defenses (particularly ones that are Ground immune, Corv says Hi)
- Hazards in general help a lot.
- Again, Sash revengers are pretty decent.
Priority Block: this pretty sure is limited to just Lele, who needs a scarf to win and this match up has other issues.
Bulky Ghosts/Steel/Rock: you can bring one who can take a hit, but they have to also be able to hurt Dnite back enough.
Hazards: Boots
Sash: See above on why this doesn't work.

In general, simply listing ideas to handle a mon is not enough on its own. You should always consider metagame context, how these options are overall and how this impacts your building. In general, many of your Barra suggestions are very match up dependant and thus not really reasonable. And Dnite is just a case of overtly restrictive on building and battle.

tacking this on at the end because I saw it

I have played several battles experimenting with Terastallizing, and I still believe the Mechanic can hinder you as much as help you. Losing a pokemon just after you Terastallize it is already a serious issue as it robs you of the chance to use it again.
With all due respect, this kind of claim should be backed by replays demonstrating such scenarios because the likelihood of losing a tera mon just after terastilizing it is so low... I don't think i have ever seen it happen in over 150 games. You can't tera mons who mega or have zmove sure... But how is that relevant to terastilize.

What a lot of people are calling "dumb luck" seems to me like careful strategy a lot of the time. The "It doesn't matter if I know if I'm unprepared" argument doesn't hold a lot of water to me either.
Again... This isn't really refuting arguments people have made. Your chess comparison also doesn't really work. You can't suddenly turn a bad position into an advantage by turning a chess piece into another. The variance of tera is not comparable.
 

Capfoo

formerly Captain Combusken
When people say "something lacks answers", it is not about the raw number of things that can be an answer to something, but moreso how reasonable would it be to include said answers in every team - since you always want some ways to deal with each relevant threat in the metagame - while having an overall functioning team. For example, if there is a pokemon (let's call it Charles) that beats every team except the ones including an LC Pokemon, it still would be broken. Sure, there are a lot of LC Pokemon and thus Charles' answers, but would it be reasonable to include one LC Pokemon in each team? No, because LC Pokemon are just awfully outclassed by fully evolved Pokemon in any other matchup.
In addition to this, if for example Charles not only loses to LC Pokemon but also loses to a good pokemon such as Heatran (But still 6-0es the rest of the metagame), it would still be not worth running because it is not reasonable to ask every team to either bring Heatran or an LC Pokemon.

Smogon wants to put emphasis on the playing skills, and if a Pokemon impact on the metagame basically is "I win unless the opponent brings one of the otherwise garbage/ultraspecific Pokemon that beats me" (So effectively removing the relevance of each players in-battling skills), it probably is not worth keeping around. Ban Charles imo.


The answers you have listed are too specific to be fit on every team, are not enough to stop Barraskewda as a whole, or are just not worth to run in general.

-Changing weather is something restricted to weather teams, and you can't assume you'll be able to reset the weather all the time, as Rain teams are very offensive, and getting a free turn against them is not always possible. Furthermore, you still have to find a way to check Barrask even when Rain isn't up, as it still a threatening Pokemon on its own right.
-Unburden+Terrain is not something you can fit on every team either, and is not sufficent counterplay either: Hawlucha can only revenge kill once. Barraskewda can just switch out, and unless Hawlucha wins immediately Barraskewda will just win later in the game if that was your only way to deal with it.
-Trick room is not only restricted to a very specific kind of team built around the move, but also has a greater overall issue: Trick Room can't be up at all times, and you need a free turn to set it up. Sure, Barrask will not be a threat while Trick Room is up, but what are you going to do during the turns it is not up?
-Immunities is a quite valid point, but has two main issues:
There is only two mons that are good mons worth to run aside from being water immunities : Gastrodon and Clodsire, that aren't even that great at switching into it since physically defensive sets still can be 2HKOed by Close Combat or Drill Run respectively (252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 189-223 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO, 252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 272-322 (58.6 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Furthermore, Rain always bring Ferrothorn, so even if you manage to check Barraskewda with a water immunity, Ferro is just going to take advantage of them and set hazards.
-Focus-Sash + Endeavor is completely invalidated hazards, something pretty much every team run due to how good they are. They also can directly go on Ferrothorn to break your sash, as Endeavor is a contact move, or just click Flip Turn on barrask if this is an 1v1 situation. Counterplay should almost always take Hazards into account, as you can't assume being able to keep them off at all times, especially since removing them (if you get the opportunity to - which is not guaranteed at all) essentially gives a free turn to the opponent, which they can take advantage of to break through your team.
-Priority is kinda valid if we assume that chipping the fish would be enough to deal with it (which is not the case!), though Barrask resists some of them (Ice Shard/BPunch), however you will have to ensure that your priority user is a threat in general to rain otherwise you are just losing. Imagine if you brought M-Scizor, sack something to let M-Sciz safely get into the field, just for it to give a free switch to something like Zapdos that threaten to get an other kill, can you really say that you have enough counterplay to Barraskewda?
-There are bulky stuff that can somewhat switch into Barraskewda to take its hits, but that's the whole deal with Tera water: It hits so hard that you will have to be a bulky resist such as Toxapex and Ferrothorn to take the hit comfortably, and you will have to take into account the fact that Barraskewda can keep the momentum against them with Flip Turn if those are the only counterplay you brought to it, restricting your build options even further.



-Lele can only revenge kill if it has a scarf, and has to win the FocusBlast/Moonblast vs Tera mindgame. Otherwise you could sack Lele to get terrain up but then you still need something able to revenge kill it at +1.
-About the ghost/steel/rock types : You def should give concrete examples instead of generic categories : there is a lot of bulky ghost/steel/rock types, but not all of them are really worth putting into teams. Also they need to be able to do something back to dragonite as well - which is not guaranteed, as dnite still is pretty bulky and has multiscale.
-Boots exist + Hazards do not OHKO Dragonite as well. Yeah sure they help, but you can't always assume you are going to have them up + they are obviously not enough. This is true with anything weak to rocks - not exactly on topic, but this video about protect ho-oh in dpp Ubers illustrates how ho-oh manages can be an immense threat in a metagame where removing rocks is pretty much impossible.
-I already went over sash.


TLDR:
Generally, making a list of stuff that beats a Pokemon is NOT a sufficient argument, otherwise you could argue that absolutely anything is worth unbanning. For example, i could go like:

Hey guys, we should unban Primal Groudon from natdex OU because there is a lot of counterplay to it! Like:
-Any faster ground type threaten it with ground moves (Landorus-T, Iron Treads, Garchomp, Great Tusk, etc...)
-Lati twins wall most of its sets, and outspeed it
-Any set lacking fire moves is dealt with by steels immune to ground (corv, skarm, bronzong, celesteela, orthworm (lol)).
-It is very slow, a lot can outspeed it and kill it once chipped, especially since it is much less bulky specially speaking.
-Neutral to rocks and has no recovery, so probably quite easy to chip
-Focus Sash (or anything bulky enough to take a hit) + Counter
-Solrock and Lunatone resist its stab combination, and wall any set without toxic/solarbeam/SD
-Ditto can revenge kill any set
-Golduck is faster and can kill it with a water move since it ignores Desolate Land

-...

This is fucking Primal Groudon though. Every single thing in the game has multiple counterplay options, but what matters in the end is : are those options really reliable enough? And if they are, is it reasonable to fit one of these options in every team? What if those options make my team significantly worse in other MUs?
This is precisely why I said that going into hyper-specific examples isn't super helpful, as it gets away from the point of the thread and the discussion on Terastalisation's balance, but a couple of responses:
  • Yes, Weather and TR are specific archetypes, but I did also list options available to, I am pretty sure, all of the main team types, so I don't think it's fair to say that the potential answers I gave are not widely applicable.
  • On the Sash/Hazards side, yes, hazards are indeed common, but if you're building a team without Hazard removal in 2022 then I don't know what to tell you. Reliably getting hazards off the field is not necessarily always easy, but it's also not as impossible as you claim in my opinion and from my experience. Even better, there are plenty of ways to play where you can stop hazards from even going up, which again has been my experience and how I approach the matchup usually.
Basically, I think the options I presented are reliable enough. I'll agree to disagree on that point though, I can only talk from my POV and what my experience of it has been.

To bring it back to the actual topic at hand though, because again these are hyper-specific examples, I think what I am ultimately saying is that Pokemon is often a matchup game, sometimes you load into a team and realise your chance to win that game is very slim, and that's ok. You cannot expect to win every match, some you will lose and there's not much you can do about it, because your matchup is bad. What you can do is make sure that the games that could go either way are ones you win.

As an example, I use a few teams but there is one I play most often with and have had the most success with (It's KokoLucha, BB Greninja, Endeavor Lead Infernape, Great Tusk and Kartana for those curious), when playing with this team I often struggle against TR teams, I can win against them maybe 10% of the time and even then I have to play perfectly. Some people might experience or see this and feel like TR is too strong, or Melmetal (the main problem mon on TR) is too strong, or even that Tera is too strong, because they struggle against it. But I don't think that's a good analysis of why I often lose that matchup. I lose that matchup because it matches up poorly into Trick Room. I can either patch up that hole in my team (typically at the cost of making another matchup worse), or I can just accept I'm losing those most of the time, take the L and focus instead on the games where I win on matchup, or where the fight is more even. And I think that's reasonable, personally.

From my experience of Natdex so far, I have seen tons of different team types, I truly think that Pokémon is so broad now that I don't believe you ever can have the perfect team for every matchup you will encounter. This is actually one thing I think Terastalisation really helps with; a well-placed Tera type can turn a massive weakness for a specific Pokémon or even team Archetype into something that isn't as much of a problem anymore.

Basically, I don't think it's reasonable to ban a mechanic just because one or two Pokémon are too good under it, the responsible thing to do in my opinion is to ban that which is broken. And from what I have personally seen and experienced playing the game with Tera in, it's individual Pokémon that are too good under Terastalisation, not the mechanic. So yes, I will be voting do not ban, although I do once again want to state that I think restrictions should be considered regardless once the time is right, and obviously I do also think some individual Pokémon may need to be looked at once the tiering on Terastalisation has been finished.

Anyway, I think I have said my piece, I will fully accept that people won't agree with me on this, but guess what, I'm ok with that too. Just wanted to give my 2 cents on this, probably won't be checking this thread again so I would kindly advise people not to respond directly to me as you won't get a response.
 
Basically, I don't think it's reasonable to ban a mechanic just because one or two Pokémon are too good under it, the responsible thing to do in my opinion is to ban that which is broken. And from what I have personally seen and experienced playing the game with Tera in, it's individual Pokémon that are too good under Terastalisation, not the mechanic.
I disagree - when multiple mons are broken because of it, it's much simpler to just target the common denominator and get rid of it. It makes ten billion percent more sense than to have to ban a shitload of mons to try and fail to save Terastallization. Having the mons take the fall instead is nothing but a band-aid solution that ignores the real problem.

Pokemon is often a matchup game, sometimes you load into a team and realise your chance to win that game is very slim, and that's ok. You cannot expect to win every match, some you will lose and there's not much you can do about it, because your matchup is bad. What you can do is make sure that the games that could go either way are ones you win.
Sure, Pokemon is a matchup game, but Terastalize only makes things more volatile because your check to a certain mon could instead be turned into setup fodder. Basically, it allows ppl to pull a get out of jail free card out of their asses by turning a good matchup for their opponent into a bad one abruptly.

I still believe the Mechanic can hinder you as much as help you. Losing a pokemon just after you Terastallize it is already a serious issue as it robs you of the chance to use it again.
Theoretically, yes, but I wouldn't expect that to happen very often in practice.

What a lot of people are calling "dumb luck" seems to me like careful strategy a lot of the time. The "It doesn't matter if I know if I'm unprepared" argument doesn't hold a lot of water to me either. There are points in chess where you aren't in checkmate, but your opponent is still definitely going to win just by having an advantage. I think Terastallizing is still a very strategic aspect of the metagame.
The chess analogy makes no sense, as you cannot change a bad situation into a more favorable one just because you turned one chess piece into another.

I continue to maintain my assertions that Terastal should not be banned, as it should have first tried to have limits and balances placed on it (especially when I still believe there are simple and effective fixes that will work. I know people say that's not the point of this thread but I do think knowing there are better ways to go about it is a good argument against the ban)
Exactly what "fixes" Terastallize? Because I think that it's not fixable at all. I've seen some restriction options in the OU thread on it, but I'm not convinced any of them will actually fix it.
 
Not much to discuss here. Unrestricted tera is absurdly broken in Natdex and there are two dozen mons which can flip Uno Reverse card and win the game from right there. Not just that there are a gazillion tera users, each of the viable mon often has more than 3 viable Tera types.

Any prediction becomes completely useless as there are ensure so many different mons to prepare for. And tera is a mechanic that will keep adapting to remain unpredictable.

OU has a lower power level and much smaller dex size, so there are fewer number of tera abusers. Not the same case in Natdex. Even an OU style restriction won't work here.

So yeah, ban it is.
 
I've failed reqs, and given the activity going on in my (and many other's) lives for the next few days, I don't think I can start a new alt and get them before the test is over. As a result, I hope that the least I can do is persuade everyone voting DNB to reconsider.

First of all, there are too many Tera abusers to count. Of course, every mechanic will have abusers, but they should be balanced. Take a look at Z Moves last gen. One of the premire abusers was offensive Heatran, who could run several Z moves effectively, like Firium, Steelium, and Grassium. This was healthy for the metagame, as it allowed for offensive Heatran to be something to ponder for the other player. Is their team weak to Gastro? Maybe they need something to nuke Gliscor? Sure, it isn't easy, but rewarding critical thinking is far from a bad trait.

Furthermore, Heatran has a crippling flaw, in that it is very slow. There were faster Z abusers, like Weavile and Greninja, but Greninja relies on super effective attacks and the high BP Z moves for damage, while Weavile needed to sacrifice some valuable utility in Knock Off (we'll expand on that later) and needed to find proper setup opportunities to be as threatening as possible.

Tera is different, however, in the way that, unlike Z crystals, which have a 1-turn effect and have reasonable, albeit very high base powers, last for the entire game, so even a lower boost over the course of 1 turn, will be made up for with overall damage dealt. And damage is dealt. If you can lure out a Z with a resist, for example, you might take more than half, but unless the opposing mon can ko you from there, it's a won interaction, and even if you were threatened to be koed, you can always switch and heal up later. Tera doesn't exactly work like that. When something terastallizes, sometimes even the bulkiest of answers can't stand up to it. Tera Water Floatzel/Skewda in the rain 2hkoes almost all resists, besides niche alternatives, like Tangrowth and Slowbro, or straight immunities, who often don't want to eat a CC/Psyfangs, like WA Clod and Gastro. Again, this would be bearable if it was a one-time thing, but it isn't. From the moment they tera, it's the opponent who's playing defensively, and they're playing that game poorly. Well, okay, but that's just 2 rain abusers. Sure, they're 2 completely unproblematic rain abusers pre-tera, but hey, if it's just 2, it can't be that bad, right?

Banded Tera Steel Melmetal has almost no switchins besides 4x resists, and the few that do are crushed by it's coverage. The only true switchin is Rotom-Wash, but that mon is very suspectible to chip, and it doesn't exactly love eating banded Superpowers, either. Tera Ghost Dragapult has very few resists and they're all somewhat niche at best, Tera Normal DNite has effectively 120 BP priority, and shuts down a lot of once-exploitable weaknesses, Tera Fighting Zamazenta can't be contained by this tier's common fighting resists, Annihilape, with it's great bulk, often has hitting it with super effective attacks as it's main counterplay, but when those weaknesses can be deleted it doesn't matter, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Another thing that must be mentioned is opportunity cost. Sure, a Heatran or Washtom could run a Z set, but then you miss out on the longevity provided by Leftovers. Maybe Zapdos could run Flyinium, but you miss out on it's ability to pivot due to a lack of Heavy Duty Boots. Serperior could run Normalium but then you lose to Chansey 1v1/can't abuse the hell out of Defog, etc. Now, often these decisions could be clear, but there's another thing: other Z abusers. Running 2 Z abusers significantly hinders one of your mons due to effectively not having an item slot, so often, you need to pick one. With Tera, what's stopping you from running a beneficial Tera? They have no item slot, the only downside to running a Tera is that A: you can't mega evolve (most Megas are completely diff mons compared to their pre evos,) B: you can't Z (usually the answer is to just Tera), or C: you can't use a diff Tera type. The primary competiton to Terastallization is Terastallization. Needless to say, that's too much.

But wait, why can't you defensively tera? Isn't that too, a powerful tool? While yes, you could, forcing something to defensively Terastallize is actually fairly beneficial on the opponent's end with smart building. Let's say Heatran was your main check to, say, Serperior, but it was Tera Dark to effectively handle Pult. So, Pult comes in, and you Tera Dark and beat it 1v1, but wait, now Serp can come in and completely wreck your team. This means that you effectively need to run 2 checks to the same mon, and in a tier where there's as many threats as here, that's not doing any favors.

Now, I don't have a conclusion, but, for the person who so desperately does not want to be directly responded to (which is fine since I don't have the time to give an analysis on what they said, there's only one part that truly bugs me,) if you unironically think that it's a good idea to make a game as complex and competitive as mons an rps like game where matchup fishes are around every corner and games are decided at team preview, I sincerely hope that you talk to other players about that. Because that sounds like a horrific metagame, one not worth touching with a 39 and a half foot pole.
 
Don't mean to make it a one liner, but tera needs to go, no restrictions, clauses or whatnot. The sheer unpredictability factor, the constant 50/50s etc make this thing inherently uncompetitive in my opinion. Fun? For sure. But the same could be argued for dynamax, flinch strategies (e.g.,with king's rock maushold), baton pass etc etc. As many have pointed out, there's a reason some things have the types and/or base stats that they do, and randomly altering them, even if ur opponent has the necessary information on team preview, does create an unhealthy metagame. And that's without accounting for the superstab parameter etc etc. Whilst terastal is not as openly broken as dynamax, it's not far behind, specially cause, unlike dynamax, it is permanent, the defensive component is far outweighted by the offensive one and the sheer unpredictability is simply too much, not least because of today's power level. It's not comparable to,say, team preview up to,and including, gen 4,mainly because a)even if u didn't know ur opponent's pokemon, u could make an educated guess, and b)the overall power level was such that one wrong guess or move rarely had the potential to outright cost u the game.
In short, terastal, even if it is fun and interesting as a mechanic, simply cannot exist in a metagame balanced around 6v6 singles
 
Last edited:

Unowndragon

不是很懂我的固有厄运
is a Tiering Contributor
UPL Champion
I always want to say, Regarding Tera, only ban/do not ban is an absurd decision.
It can learn OU,have 4 choice about Tera

I agree that offense tera is very destructive in meta games,But you have to blame game freak, not tera itself for this problem!

I will stick to my point of view. I am against ban tera, or I am against all actions to ban the current special mechanism of gen.
(such as gen8 dymax,although i really think dymax is awful on single battle)

Now that we have come to a new game environment that subverts common sense, we should have taken action to adapt to metaname, instead of thinking about going to ban when we saw an overly supermodel mechanism. In this way, everything can not be changed - it is still the same as in the past, seemingly thriving, but in fact, it is just a stale rule.

I object that ban tera has nothing to do with tera itself, but for the game itself, we are essentially a pokemon player. The second is to participate in various tours to prove our own players. Many players also enjoy the current game process because they can feel the fun. From the perspective of competition, tera is really bad, but compared with dymax, we still have room for manoeuvre, because he does not force you to use ditto to fight against dymax, You will not always be able to spe+1, atk+1.etc. For most pure game players, tera can feel fun. For the format of nationaldex, which can make up for our regret, it can also let us enjoy the theme and fun of gen9.

Maybe I said this sentence is quite offensive, but I think our traditional perception of 6v6 should be modified in different generations. This is anyone's game, not someone else's game.


At least for me, it is more important to let more people feel fun and undivided than my own feeling of losing the game. Based on the above reasons, I will definitely choose DO NOT BAN. This is not a question of whether tera is broken, but a question of more players' sense of experience and not letting people gradually enter the formats have a sense of separation.

If we ban Tera,it let gen9 nd become gen8 nd plus,although it have some change,but in fact, there is no change in the kernel.We still have to confront recovery, which shortens the time(8pp recover/soft boiled),or some offense/defense/balance duels. It seems that the number of PMs has increased, but the combat mode still follows the old pattern. It just seems that the number of PMs has increased. The unchanged strategy remains unchanged.




Welcome to refute my ideas. I am still very firm in my own ideas.
 
I always want to say, Regarding Tera, only ban/do not ban is an absurd decision.
It can learn OU,have 4 choice about Tera

I agree that offense tera is very destructive in meta games,But you have to blame game freak, not tera itself for this problem!

I will stick to my point of view. I am against ban tera, or I am against all actions to ban the current special mechanism of gen.
(such as gen8 dymax,although i really think dymax is awful on single battle)

Now that we have come to a new game environment that subverts common sense, we should have taken action to adapt to metaname, instead of thinking about going to ban when we saw an overly supermodel mechanism. In this way, everything can not be changed - it is still the same as in the past, seemingly thriving, but in fact, it is just a stale rule.

I object that ban tera has nothing to do with tera itself, but for the game itself, we are essentially a pokemon player. The second is to participate in various tours to prove our own players. Many players also enjoy the current game process because they can feel the fun. From the perspective of competition, tera is really bad, but compared with dymax, we still have room for manoeuvre, because he does not force you to use ditto to fight against dymax, You will not always be able to spe+1, atk+1.etc. For most pure game players, tera can feel fun. For the format of nationaldex, which can make up for our regret, it can also let us enjoy the theme and fun of gen9.

Maybe I said this sentence is quite offensive, but I think our traditional perception of 6v6 should be modified in different generations. This is anyone's game, not someone else's game.


At least for me, it is more important to let more people feel fun and undivided than my own feeling of losing the game. Based on the above reasons, I will definitely choose DO NOT BAN. This is not a question of whether tera is broken, but a question of more players' sense of experience and not letting people gradually enter the formats have a sense of separation.

If we ban Tera,it let gen9 nd become gen8 nd plus,although it have some change,but in fact, there is no change in the kernel.We still have to confront recovery, which shortens the time(8pp recover/soft boiled),or some offense/defense/balance duels. It seems that the number of PMs has increased, but the combat mode still follows the old pattern. It just seems that the number of PMs has increased. The unchanged strategy remains unchanged.




Welcome to refute my ideas. I am still very firm in my own ideas.
Ah yes, once Tera is banned, it'll be the exact same as Gen 8 National Dex. You know, the Gen 8 National Dex with Torn, Mage, and Pult all unbanned. The Gen 8 National Dex with several unaware Pokémon who far outclassed their predecessors. The Gen 8 National Dex with Gholdengo, Zamazenta, Kingambit, Espathra, Annihilape, and Glimmora. The Gen 8 National Dex where Landorus could inflict burns and where Garchomp and Gastrodon learnt spikes. The Gen 8 National Dex where Urshifu could use Swords Dance and where Heavy Duty Boots were the de-facto item for defensive Pokémon. /s
 
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