Other Pre-DLC SV Monotype Metagame Discussion

[Rebelpyroflame]

That's a good point. What are the main threats in this generation and what is the best counters for them? Just saying, having a list might be useful both practically and for future reference

 

[Neko]

That's a good point. What are the main threats in this generation and what is the best counters for them? Just saying, having a list might be useful both practically and for future reference

Disclaimer: This is not the most extensive list, but this gives you an overview of the following Pokemon. New techs are invented daily, so some Pokemon may seem scarier or less threatening over time!!!!

Personally, the biggest offensive threats in the metagame rn are: , , , and . You have to have a plan for these, else you'll have a bad time with these.

Flutter Mane and Greninja, Special attackers galore

Flutter Mane and Greninja share nearly the same profile as Specs attackers that hit really hard, and there really aren't good defensive counters for it. Show me a healthy Clodsire and Flutter Mane and Greninja 2HKO'es it with ease with the correct coverage move. So-called swap-ins like Corviknight, Toxapex, and Gastrodon can get gutted by these two if they have the correct move (and Greninja only needs 4-5 while Flutter needs like...7 moves). Because of these reasons the only reliable way to deal with these is by outspeeding and OHKO'ing them, or by having a ridiculously good defensive core that you forget that special attackers exist....in case of Flutter Mane anyway.

Oh, and these guys aren't always using Choice Specs, they can use Choice Scarf to decimate frailer teams (eg. Dragon, Fighting), but with a Choice Scarf they can dealt with defensively.

Has the second fastest speedtier, 405, making it almost mandatory to either:

1.)Predict the incoming move correctly and force it out

[Ground's defensive core has the most breathing room against Flutter Mane]
[Poison's defensive core]
[A sponge + immune to Thunderbolt, which FM packs for Corv]
/ [Usually safe, but Flutter Mane can pack Energy Ball + Thunderbolt if it wants to]

2.)Sack something then revenge-kill it with a Physical Choice Scarf user, an Assault Vest user, or Priority user

Phys Choice Scarf users are plenty, some of it includes:
More niche, lure sets include: (Heavy Slam),
Assault Vest:
Priority Users that deal 90+ to FM:

Is technically less deadly due to its speedtier leaving it outsped by Kilowattrel, and Meowscarada, aside from Flutter Mane, Chien-Pao, and Dragapult. However, this guy is in 2 of the best monotypes ever, and by breaking or pressuring walls, it opens up for its team to go brr. Pokemon that deal with Flutter Mane, with the exception of Ground's defensive core handle it well, and tons more of Choice Scarf and Priority users handle it better due to its weakness to Mach Punch and lower Special Bulk.

Chien-Pao

Refer to this post for Chien-Pao

Pokemon that deal with Chien Pao

Bug: (First Impression beats Dark anyway)
Dark: (takes one in a pinch) (If it has no Sacred Sword)
Dragon:
Electric: (Personally don't use it, but is so thick so :D)
Fairy: (That now sometimes uses scarf)
Fighting: (literally almost everyone)
Fire: (This is also a bad matchup for dark)
Flying: (Defensively) / (Offensively)
Ghost: / (If it locks in to Ice Shard to kill Flutter Mane) (If no sucker punch)
Grass: juleocesar
Ground: (Defensively) / (But Ground had a problem with Weavile last gen, too)
Ice: (is scarf...)
Normal: (but like, Normal isnt good)
Poison: (defensively) /
Psychic: (They have a weavile problem last gen too)
Rock: (Accelerock)
Steel: (if not banded) / (if no sucker punch)
Water: (now running Jolly for Fluttermane anyway)

Kingambit

Is the guy. Sometimes I even take a second look every time I damage it, as if it had an Assault Vest on to eat that stuff. Anyway, if you have a Fighting- or Dark-type that isn't OHKO'ed by it at Max Supreme Overlord that can OHKO / deal a lot of damage back you're usually safe. Alternatively, Iron Defense Corviknight also helps, as well as our resident Unaware users in Dondozo and Skeledirge (which usually outspeeds it) helps too.
Fighting- or Dark-types: (probably one of the reasons why you should run it on Dragon)
Defensively:

Miscellaneous offensive threats vary per type, but these include , , , , , , , ,
Threat against Poison and Ground (non-Quagsire variants) specifically, outspeeding it with Scarf Iron Moth / Glimmora / Iron Treads helps. Phazing it with Ting-Lu or Toxapex helps.
Guts teams that cannot hit extremely hard on the onset more, with Hatterene being able to wear down Poison, Bulky Water, and Ground teams, while Espathra can be an annoying last-mon standing even in the Dark matchup if you didn't preserve Kingambit. Fortunately, both of these are kinda taken advantage of by Steel-types, so make sure these don't die. Alternatively, Choice Specs Shadow Ball makes quick work of them.
Threats against Water and Dark teams. Sableye and Azumarill, Pokemon that are immune to Breloom's moves, helps as long as you don't get hit by the wrong move, as well as your own priority user in Chien-Pao. Breloom is also decidedly slow, so something like Quaquaval can revenge-kill it. On the other hand, Specs Scovillain doesnt really have a switch-in for most Water and Dark teams unless they have Azumarill or Hydreigon, but its slow even under the sun, which allows Scarf Meowscarada to deal with it. Resetting the weather is also an option for Water teams.
Fire.
Are stallbreakers, so you kinda have to be proactive with them if ever. Take note RM and Ghold also have other sets such as Choice Scarf though.

The biggest defensive threats, on the other hand (which you should really be prepared for or it walls your team or sets 10000 hazards and shuffles you to death): . You deal with these by hitting them hard enough, which is viable since we went through those scary offensive threats earlier. Taunt helps, especially against Dondozo, luring and heavily maiming it helps [eg. Freeze-Dry Baxcalibur and Quagsire], statusing it helps [eg. Corrosion Glimmora and Corviknight]

Aside from those listed above, the following Pokemon can be annoying in the correct circumstances: , , , , . You deal with them the same way as you would deal with the defensive mons.

I hope this helps, even though I didn't expound on as much on the defensive mons. You can ask a follow-up question if anything is confusing

 

[Dragapult]

Not so fast! I activate my trap card:

edited my DLC pickups post on the previous page with the list of relevant mons arriving in home so as to have all the information on un-dexiting compiled in one place

 

[Dragapult]

Additionally, ninja'd by Neko here but wanted to give our new pickups from the announcement time to settle in before committing to a post.

Instantly the most important mon on Normal. Normal however is still basically unplayable as it is little more than dancing around with no end product, and will likely stay that way until the arrival of Ursaluna, Meloetta, and the Porygons later this year (...and even then...) On Ghost it slides into the lineup as a supplementary Choice mon allowing for the usage of other sets on Flutter Mane and Gholdengo. It has been discussed extensively already but Zoroark's Ghost immunity makes it the defining threat in the Ghost mirror as well as opens up trickery in other matchups where opponents might guess wrong and find themselves dealing with a different threat than expected.
Viability verdict: S on Normal, A- on Ghost

A much needed additional special threat for Dragon teams with the added niche of being neutral to Chien-Pao's Ice STAB. This mon functions best on Dragon as a Choice user, providing Dragon a more streamlined answer to Dondozo than either of Specs Dragapult or Hydreigon. Dragon's struggles with hazards means this mon can also opt into running Heavy Duty Boots so as to reduce on Cyclizar. On Water this mon functions in the Keldeo role, providing offensive Water teams a supplementary special attacker to lighten the load on Greninja. It also serves as an insurance policy in the Fire matchup, pretty much winning given Torkoal's ubiquity.
Viability verdict: A on Dragon, B on Water

A very weird mon to evaluate due to it being available on two lesser seen types. It boasts very good stat spread offset by an unfortunate 4x weakness to U-Turn, a notable demerit on two already questionable defensive types. I do not have much experience with Grass though imagine Iron Leaves would be one of the first mons in the builder due to its ability to reliably OHKO every mon on Poison at +2 (Skuntank dies to +2 Close Combat, Clodsire is a guaranteed OHKO with a bit of hazard chip.) On Psychic it is slightly cramped by the necessity of Gallade as a scarfer in the Dark matchup, and appears to function best in either a physical wallbreaker (SD + 3 attacks) or SD + Trailblaze role.
Viability verdict: S/A on Grass, B on Psychic

Additionally, ninja'd by Neko here but wanted to give our new pickups from the announcement time to settle in before committing to a post.

All these of course are subject to debate and change as they settle in and the meta continues to evolve.

 

[wkxkevin]

A- on ghost is flat out not true. Ghost has absolutely no switchins to any ghost type moves outside of dark types, both of which are terrible pokemon. Plus, 2 moves in its movepool stands out: uturn and knock off. Here is a list of pokemon with switch moves on ghost: Dragapult(uturn), oricorio sensu(uturn), rotom-normal(volt switch). That's right, the only viable user of a switch move is dragapult, the other 2 are terrible. Now take knock off: banette, sabeleye. As you can see, both are kinda bad, especially bannette. The access to those moves is absolutely invaluable and gives zoroark-h a ton of utility that ghost is lacking. I ran choice band but specs might still be the way you don't need to run a physical set to run knock off and uturn.

TLDR: A- is criminal, to me this pokemon is basically required, or close to it. I would put it S-, but I will be fine with A+. I will absolutely be against the decision of anything A or below. This thing is a lot more valuable than imo even dragapult itself.

 

[Dragapult]

The mon that I think is not getting enough attention for being a focal point of dark's power level is Kingambit. Kingambit provides more to the dark team in my opinion than any of the above listed mons (including Chien Pao). Kingambit is an incredibly strong sweeper with base 135 atk and Supreme Overlord. Kingambit also provides defensive utility with its good bulk of 100 HP 120 Def 85 Sp Def and in its typing of Steel Dark only being week to Fighting, Ground, and Fire. This combination of offensive presence combined with bulk and good defensive typing allows it to differentiate itself from the other premier physical offensive threats of Lokix, Chien Pao, and Meowscarada. Kingambit has good STABs with Kowtow Cleave, Iron Head, and Sucker Punch, and Kingambit has reasonable coverage options of Brick Break, Zen Headbutt, and Stone Edge. Kingambit also has the ability to boost its incredibly high atk even further using SD. For these reasons, Kingambit can switch in on opposing threats, set-up, and sweep using a combination of its STABs and coverage moves to take-out defensive options and sucker punch to take out more offensive checks.

Some more nuanced points:

Dark lacking hazard removal tends to force it into a more offensive playstyle overall. This playstyle means that many threats on dark teams are frail and fast. Kingambit helps to patch over this weakness by being a very offensive mon that still has quite good bulk. This defensive utility is vital to the success of many dark teams since Kingambit can take a few hits without losing momentum.

Kingambit is also quite oppressive to many types. My experience in Monotype is largely in Poison, Ghost, Dark and Ground, so I will restrict my thoughts to those four. But, from playing dark, I have watched Kingambit essentially solo other types like dragon, ice, and flying. When playing Poison, Kingambit can essentially break through any of your defensive options while your offensive don't check it terribly well in late game. Kingambit (5 allies fainted) does 43%-50% to pex and with SD that suddenly becomes 85%-100%. This means that you are in a game of 50/50s where should you haze or recover or attack with the pex and Kingambit will ultimately win this exchange. Clodsire ignores Kingambit SD but it still get 2HKO'd from full by Kingambit even with full defense investment and only does ~45% with EQ in return, so it is not an effective counter. The only offensive checks that handle Kingambit on poison are Salazzle and Wisp Iron Moth. Salazzle must deal with some 50/50s to check Kingambit because Sucker Punch from Kingambit will OHKO it while if it tries to get behind a sub, Kingambit can continually break subs with its other offensive moves (like Kowtow Cleave). Additionally, flamethrower only does 82%-96% to Kingambit so 2 are required to take it out. Wisp Iron Moth is a more clean Kingambit check but less effective in many other match-ups than scarf or specs Moth. For Ghost, playing around Kingambit involves burning it with Skeledirge or Sableye or tricking it with Gholdengo, but even with that counter play burnt Kingambit will likely pick up more value against ghost than would be expected of most mons in a given matchup. Additionally, Kingambit revenges essentially every ghost mon between Kowtow Cleave and Sucker Punch. For Dark mirror match-ups, Kingambit is quite important because it is a defensive piece that takes fast U-turns well, which the rest of the dark team tends not to do particularly well. Kingambit's bulk also allows it to take a hit from an opposing fast frail sweeper and revenge it or use sucker punch to take out a damaged sweeper. For Ground, they possess the most effective counterplay to Kingambit of these four types, so I would not say it is not particularly effective in that match-up. That said. Due to Kingambit's enormous attack stat, it can still find good value in the Ground match up by Sucker-Punching down Iron Treads, Sandy Shocks or Garchomp from half as well as being able to eat an EQ from Iron Treads or Garchomp. It can also find value from pressuring Quagsire or Clodsire with Kowtow Cleave meaning that even in one of its hardest match-ups, it still has good opportunities to find value.

One point to consider against Kingambit is that Roaring Moon is a physical threat on dark that has defensive utility as well, but I would argue that Kingambit is better in this realm because of steel being a better defensive type than dragon and Kingambit being tankier on the physical side. Additionally, Kingambit hits much harder than Roaring Moon when factoring in Supreme Overlord and Kingambit has access to STAB priority of sucker punch, which Roaring Moon does not. Therefore, Kingambit is more threatening to frail and fast sweepers than Roaring Moon is.

Overall, I would advocate for a Suspect Test of Kingambit in the near future since I believe it is a more problematic mon on dark than is Chien Pao or any other mon in this type.

Sorry for such a long post. Please let me know your thoughts.

It's taken me a long while to get around to this point but I'm now also of the opinion that there should be strong consideration for a Kingambit suspect in the near future. The mon distorts the fuck out of matchups by compelling you to hold onto whatever mon on your team is capable of eating a +2 Supreme Overlord Sucker in the endgame, granting it significant indirect sway over proceedings in both the early and mid-games. I wanted to restart discussion on this mon as a few months into the meta it seems to me to be, alongside Greninja, the most oppressive mon in an otherwise stable tier and by now many of us have played dozens of games against Dark given its popularity on ladder and in tour play.

In a vacuum this makes Kingambit not much different from most elite endgame sweepers with priority, but Kingambit's team support renders it perhaps the biggest beneficiary of this generation's Defog restrictions given Sab-Lu's proficiency at establishing and maintaining field control. Types which do not have a viable Defogger (most of them) face significant pressure to either run Boots on everything (Kingambit check included) or break TingSab while getting worn down by chip/Meowscarada/Greninja in order to get off a Rapid Spin before Kingambit and Chien-Pao clean you in the endgame. Though Kingambit does not exert significant pressure in the builder because teams must build with both Dark and Steels in mind regardless I think it exerts an unhealthy amount of influence in most Dark games and will only continue to do so as additional members of the League of Evil are added to the game. As the above user pointed out offensive types in particular tend to struggle: screens are no longer popular in the meta, the distribution Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave are poor, and most types other than Water, Poison, and Ground simply do not have the defensive resources to simultaneously fight off Dark's breakers while maintaining enough health to not lose to Kingambit at the end of the game. And yes, while Substitute sets can force the game into a 50/50 allowing both sides the chance to win the best users of Substitute in a world where Kingambit does not exist are historically early/mid-game breakers which tend to not be around when Kingambit is at its most oppressive.

Greninja on the other hand was immediately stupid upon introduction and should have been suspected weeks ago if not for the tournament schedule.

 

[Starfox.]

It's taken me a long while to get around to this point but I'm now also of the opinion that there should be strong consideration for a Kingambit suspect in the near future. The mon distorts the fuck out of matchups by compelling you to hold onto whatever mon on your team is capable of eating a +2 Supreme Overlord Sucker in the endgame, granting it significant indirect sway over proceedings in both the early and mid-games. I wanted to restart discussion on this mon as a few months into the meta it seems to me to be, alongside Greninja, the most oppressive mon in an otherwise stable tier and by now many of us have played dozens of games against Dark given its popularity on ladder and in tour play.

In a vacuum this makes Kingambit not much different from most elite endgame sweepers with priority, but Kingambit's team support renders it perhaps the biggest beneficiary of this generation's Defog restrictions given Sab-Lu's proficiency at establishing and maintaining field control. Types which do not have a viable Defogger (most of them) face significant pressure to either run Boots on everything (Kingambit check included) or break TingSab while getting worn down by chip/Meowscarada/Greninja in order to get off a Rapid Spin before Kingambit and Chien-Pao clean you in the endgame. Though Kingambit does not exert significant pressure in the builder because teams must build with both Dark and Steels in mind regardless I think it exerts an unhealthy amount of influence in most Dark games and will only continue to do so as additional members of the League of Evil are added to the game. As the above user pointed out offensive types in particular tend to struggle: screens are no longer popular in the meta, the distribution Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave are poor, and most types other than Water, Poison, and Ground simply do not have the defensive resources to simultaneously fight off Dark's breakers while maintaining enough health to not lose to Kingambit at the end of the game. And yes, while Substitute sets can force the game into a 50/50 allowing both sides the chance to win the best users of Substitute in a world where Kingambit does not exist are historically early/mid-game breakers which tend to not be around when Kingambit is at its most oppressive.

Greninja on the other hand was immediately stupid upon introduction and should have been suspected weeks ago if not for the tournament schedule.

Let's also not forget that in a lot of cases, even hanging onto mons that resists Sucker Punch or Defensive walls with five allies fainted after an SD isn't always even reliable. Here are some calcs:

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 279-329 (89.7 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flamigo: 297-350 (97.3 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chien-Pao: 278-327 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 393-463 (98.4 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO. It also can live a max defense Body Press, even with no HP investment: 252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 420-495 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Low Kick is also a viable option to take out slower, defensive mons that would resist Sucker Punch.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 544-642 (105.8 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 414-488 (81 - 95.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Overall, I generally agree with Dragapult and Bryceyyy's posts. I think Kingambit is obscenely strong and a prime candidate for a suspect test.

 

[Scarfire]

Let's also not forget that in a lot of cases, even hanging onto mons that resists Sucker Punch or Defensive walls with five allies fainted after an SD isn't always even reliable. Here are some calcs:

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 279-329 (89.7 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flamigo: 297-350 (97.3 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chien-Pao: 278-327 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 393-463 (98.4 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO. It also can live a max defense Body Press, even with no HP investment: 252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 420-495 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Low Kick is also a viable option to take out slower, defensive mons that would resist Sucker Punch.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ting-Lu: 544-642 (105.8 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 414-488 (81 - 95.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Overall, I generally agree with Dragapult and Bryceyyy's posts. I think Kingambit is obscenely strong and a prime candidate for a suspect test.

Personally more in favour of seeing actual replays showing this impact in high level games; calc walls seem intimidating but showing a +2 mon with 5 dead homies boosted clicking stab attack into frail resists and getting a ROLL to kill doesn't seem like enough of a measure for power.

Obviously I will not pretend like its bulk and power and the comeback potential isnt as fucked up strong as it is, but actual in-game examples are needed to spark serious suspect discussion imo.

 

[pikachu<3]

It's taken me a long while to get around to this point but I'm now also of the opinion that there should be strong consideration for a Kingambit suspect in the near future. The mon distorts the fuck out of matchups by compelling you to hold onto whatever mon on your team is capable of eating a +2 Supreme Overlord Sucker in the endgame, granting it significant indirect sway over proceedings in both the early and mid-games. I wanted to restart discussion on this mon as a few months into the meta it seems to me to be, alongside Greninja, the most oppressive mon in an otherwise stable tier and by now many of us have played dozens of games against Dark given its popularity on ladder and in tour play.

In a vacuum this makes Kingambit not much different from most elite endgame sweepers with priority, but Kingambit's team support renders it perhaps the biggest beneficiary of this generation's Defog restrictions given Sab-Lu's proficiency at establishing and maintaining field control. Types which do not have a viable Defogger (most of them) face significant pressure to either run Boots on everything (Kingambit check included) or break TingSab while getting worn down by chip/Meowscarada/Greninja in order to get off a Rapid Spin before Kingambit and Chien-Pao clean you in the endgame. Though Kingambit does not exert significant pressure in the builder because teams must build with both Dark and Steels in mind regardless I think it exerts an unhealthy amount of influence in most Dark games and will only continue to do so as additional members of the League of Evil are added to the game. As the above user pointed out offensive types in particular tend to struggle: screens are no longer popular in the meta, the distribution Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave are poor, and most types other than Water, Poison, and Ground simply do not have the defensive resources to simultaneously fight off Dark's breakers while maintaining enough health to not lose to Kingambit at the end of the game. And yes, while Substitute sets can force the game into a 50/50 allowing both sides the chance to win the best users of Substitute in a world where Kingambit does not exist are historically early/mid-game breakers which tend to not be around when Kingambit is at its most oppressive.

Greninja on the other hand was immediately stupid upon introduction and should have been suspected weeks ago if not for the tournament schedule.

I'd like to focus on one part right here:

The mon distorts the fuck out of matchups by compelling you to hold onto whatever mon on your team is capable of eating a +2 Supreme Overlord Sucker in the endgame,

Why are we trying to live a +2 sucker punch endgame? This has not ever been the primary way of checking gambit for the vast majority of types, and obviously if you limit your checks to such a narrow frame of reference it's going to make the mon look a lot stronger than it actually is.

The simple truth is that Kingambit is a mon that has problems getting work done early and mid-game, has an exploitable x4 weakness, along with other x2 weaknesses to common attacking types in fire and ground, is vulnerable to Spikes, and is over reliant on Sucker Punch to hit the vast majority of the metagame. All of these traits can be taken advantage of, which leads to an extensive list of checks and counters. Consider:

- Psychic teams and some Normal Teams don't even care about sucker punch due to Psychic terrain, making revenge killing Gambit fairly trivial.
- Common users of Trick (Rotom, Gholdengo, etc) can screw with Gambit's sweeping abilities by tricking it a choice item, at which point it can no longer use Sucker Punch effectively.
- Encore users (tinkaton, maushold, etc) make it effectively impossible for gambit to sweep.
- Wisp users can burn Gambit before it suckers (ex: Skeleridge; has Unaware to boot)
- Basically any good user of Substitute (Gholdengo, Volcarona, Gengar, Skeleridge, Salazzle, Scovillan, etc), or Shed Tail (Specs Overheat Cyclizar, Bpress Orthworm) can force Gambit into unfavorable 50/50s where the Sub user wins 80% of the time
- Destiny Bond bypasses Sucker Punch and is an easy way to guarantee Gambit dies
- Faster Priority (Mach punch Pawnot/Breloom, Water Shuirken Specs Greninja on Rain), can OHKO or 2HKO Gambit while bypassing Sucker Punch
- Disguise
- Because Kingambit is usually the last mon out, you can just not give it the opportunity to ever set up late game. This works particularly well when using a type like Fire. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-1774591388-89seq2wkot87idc58v9g6dmn5drib3vpw provides a good example of this. While Fire is the best at this, other types are also capable of this with good positioning.

None of these checks ever rely on tanking a +2 Sucker Punch, and to ignore them entirely suggests that you're not taking the full scale of Kingambit's checks and counters into account.

 

[TDanger]

i just wanna say that mono normal seems use\able right now, not great but definitely usable

 

[wkxkevin]

i just wanna say that mono normal seems use\able right now, not great but definitely usable

Imagine scrappy fighting type.

 

[Neko]

Imagine scrappy fighting type.

tbf said scrappy Fighting-type is currently only on two types, but Physical attackers that just hit hard deals with Normal just as well. They dont necessarily need to go for Close Combat if you can kill them all with Icicle Crash / Earthquake / Psyshock for instance

 

[wkxkevin]

tbf said scrappy Fighting-type is currently only on two types, but Physical attackers that just hit hard deals with Normal just as well. They dont necessarily need to go for Close Combat if you can kill them all with Icicle Crash / Earthquake / Psyshock for instance

that was meant to be a joke

 

[Giyu]

Greetings monotypers, I don't typically post here but after looking through some of the Kingambit discussion posts, I felt like giving some input on the matter.

Why are we trying to live a +2 sucker punch endgame? This has not ever been the primary way of checking gambit for the vast majority of types, and obviously if you limit your checks to such a narrow frame of reference it's going to make the mon look a lot stronger than it actually is.

The issue with combating Kingambit is that the only time it's actually used is in the endgame. Dark's ability to maintain offensive pressure and basically control the momentum is the reason Kingambit will be able to succeed in most matches. Access to a multitude of breakers like Chien-Pao, Meowscarada, Greninja, and Hydreigon as well as entry hazards from Ting-Lu (Also spin-blocked by Sableye) render teams easily withered down and not defensively stable enough to check Kingambit. If you ask me, the Pokemon is actually as strong as it looks.

The simple truth is that Kingambit is a mon that has problems getting work done early and mid-game, has an exploitable x4 weakness, along with other x2 weaknesses to common attacking types in fire and ground, is vulnerable to Spikes, and is over reliant on Sucker Punch to hit the vast majority of the metagame. All of these traits can be taken advantage of, which leads to an extensive list of checks and counters.

While yes, it's susceptible to Spikes due to the lack of hazard control on Dark, Sableye is still capable of preventing them from being set in the first place and as I said earlier, Dark pressures teams so immensly, setting up entry hazards can be very risky. You're not typically seeing Kingambit mid-game, let alone early-game, it's simply not even required in most cases to appear. Sure, weaknesses can be exploited but they are irrelevant if Kingambit has a priority move boosted by Supreme Overlord, potentially a held item, and Swords Dance. While yes, Kingambit is reliant on Sucker Punch, it doesn't really need to use it that much due to the opponent's team probably already being withered down.

- Psychic teams and some Normal Teams don't even care about sucker punch due to Psychic terrain, making revenge killing Gambit fairly trivial.
- Common users of Trick (Rotom, Gholdengo, etc) can screw with Gambit's sweeping abilities by tricking it a choice item, at which point it can no longer use Sucker Punch effectively.
- Encore users (tinkaton, maushold, etc) make it effectively impossible for gambit to sweep.
- Wisp users can burn Gambit before it suckers (ex: Skeleridge; has Unaware to boot)
- Basically any good user of Substitute (Gholdengo, Volcarona, Gengar, Skeleridge, Salazzle, Scovillan, etc), or Shed Tail (Specs Overheat Cyclizar, Bpress Orthworm) can force Gambit into unfavorable 50/50s where the Sub user wins 80% of the time
- Destiny Bond bypasses Sucker Punch and is an easy way to guarantee Gambit dies
- Faster Priority (Mach punch Pawnot/Breloom, Water Shuirken Specs Greninja on Rain), can OHKO or 2HKO Gambit while bypassing Sucker Punch
- Disguise
- Because Kingambit is usually the last mon out, you can just not give it the opportunity to ever set up late game. This works particularly well when using a type like Fire. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-1774591388-89seq2wkot87idc58v9g6dmn5drib3vpw provides a good example of this. While Fire is the best at this, other types are also capable of this with good positioning.

- Psychic and Normal teams basically already lose to Dark, regardless if Kingambit is used or not.
- Kingambit is rarely even using Sucker Punch against Rotom-W due to Will-O-Wisp and Gholdengo is pressured by teammates considerably, Focus Blast is not always used as well.
- Tinkaton is generally not used over Klefki and Maushold is used on Normal which has little to no chance beating a well played Dark team.
- Will-O-Wisp is definitely a good way to halt Kingambit but Skeledirge is typically creeped against and hates Kowtow Kleave.
- Substitute is definitely one of the better methods as well, however, some of the Pokemon you listed aren't really seen using it, Orthworm is just Sableye food and Choice Specs Cyclizar is pushing it.
- There aren't many Destiny Bond users but if Kingambit is using Sucker Punch most of the time, it would just fail.
- Mach Punch is a good point, however, Water Shuriken Greninja is just simply non-existent.
- Mimikyu is definitely great but it's very difficult to preserve for end-game due to the nature of Ghost needing to use it constantly in the Dark matchup and Fairy needing a way to shutdown Swords Dance Chien-Pao in a pinch.
- Other than Tauros and Torkoal, Kingambit really doesn't need Swords Dance for Fire as Supreme Overlord gives it all the boosts it needs. I do believe that maroon could have played that slightly better by instantly switching into Ting-Lu on the Iron Moth and preserving Hydreigon but the replay does portray your point.

In conclusion, I do think that Kingambit can be really difficult to shutdown so I wouldn't be opposed to a suspect test, however, there are ways to hinder it such as using Trick (not many cases but they exist) and Will-O-Wisp as well as some Pokemon like Tauros-Blaze, Great Tusk, and Quaquaval.

 

[Gorechomp]

Mono Electric is so bad it can’t even beat Water anymore. Tapu Koko helped them so much. You hate to see it

 

[Ultraman1]

Mono Electric is so bad it can’t even beat Water anymore. Tapu Koko helped them so much. You hate to see it

In the future , we will have Zapdos , Raichu Alola and Regieleki but no Koko :(((

 

[Gorechomp]

In the future , we will have Zapdos , Raichu Alola and Regieleki but no Koko :(((

Those guys definitely help (plus Thunderus) but man, Electric took a hit. Easily one of the best type last gen with loads of auto-wins, now struggles against its own advantages. At least fairy got nerfed too ‍.

 

[wkxkevin]

In the future , we will have Zapdos , Raichu Alola and Regieleki but no Koko :(((

Here is the problem, alola rachu absolutely needs terrain. When your terrain setter is as slow as pincurchin, you have a huge problem. Personally I think the cornerstone of electric is koko, zapdos and zeraora. Zapdos is comming back is nice. Iron hands kinda replaced zera but is very slow. Then there is koko. Without koko, you have no way of reliably dealing with dragon and your e-terrain setter is so slow that even azumarill outspeed which is a huge problem. Especially important this gen because water gains access to wake. Without koko, ur not reliably dealing with wake spamming hydro steam + draco.

 

[wkxkevin]

Roast Me!!!

 

[Dead by Daylight]

View attachment 508314
Roast Me!!!

It's a Fairy-type, How mean can its look be? It's literally a dead hairstyle.

 

[Pengairxan]

Roast Me!!!

I am going to need clarification on why you came to this and what it is exactly meant to counter.
Since it is completely screwed against strong attackers which can obliterate it like Garchomp, Chien-pao, Fluttermane, Iron Valiant, Gholdengo and Iron Hands just to name a few. And against any Ghost-type or mon that runs U-turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot and I believe Shed Tail they just can just leave for free with no worries. Even against walls it isn't the best option since they can just set up hazards, put it to sleep/Paralyze it or still just threaten to kill it anyway.

 

[wkxkevin]

I am going to need clarification on why you came to this and what it is exactly meant to counter.
Since it is completely screwed against strong attackers which can obliterate it like Garchomp, Chien-pao, Fluttermane, Iron Valiant, Gholdengo and Iron Hands just to name a few. And against any Ghost-type or mon that runs U-turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot and I believe Shed Tail they just can just leave for free with no worries. Even against walls it isn't the best option since they can just set up hazards, put it to sleep/Paralyze it or still just threaten to kill it anyway.

I don't think you got the premise of the post.

It's a Fairy-type, How mean can its look be? It's literally a dead hairstyle.

See this is more like it.

 

[Pengairxan]

I don't think you got the premise of the post.

I think my roast came out wrong lmao.
Still how do you take one of the best offensive ghosts of all time, look at its moveset and the meta and go "One Perish Trap to matchup poorly into this meta please!" And more importantly, does it even matchup well into anything?

 

[Gorechomp]

View attachment 508314
Roast Me!!!

This man want to be perish Trap Azumarill so bad.

 

[wkxkevin]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-1845889360

On low ladder, you can trap clod :D\

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9monotype-1845893194-h9koxgwwsyn1aogmevtkraqmx37l260pw

or pex