Metagame SV Draft League General Discussion

insane to see this come to fruition after how many years of separate communities. lgi everyone!

the valiant:iron valiant:, mane:flutter mane: and chien-pao :chien-pao: are banned as hell lmao, wondering about booster energy cause the possibilities are nuts
Booster Energy seems pretty fair to me, one time use item (almost similar to the terrain seeds but needs a bit less setup and you can somewhat choose the stat you boost). I think it'll be a good item with some use but nowhere close to broken.
 

fortunate sun

formerly PapaMax
Booster Energy seems pretty fair to me, one time use item (almost similar to the terrain seeds but needs a bit less setup and you can somewhat choose the stat you boost). I think it'll be a good item with some use but nowhere close to broken.
this is perhaps true, ig it'd be moreso the mons themselves im concerned about lol. add roaring moon to that, the dd energy set is ridiculous
 
Booster Energy seems pretty fair to me, one time use item (almost similar to the terrain seeds but needs a bit less setup and you can somewhat choose the stat you boost). I think it'll be a good item with some use but nowhere close to broken.
idk if these mons will be busted but iron valiant about to be the best sweeper OAT bruh.

if I had to guess:
chien-Pao most likely busted but idk i have to see it in a meta with no tera
valiant seems like a goated sweeper but busted iffy as well
flutter mane looks really good but not busted in draft imo but maybe with the right partners
 
Hello Smogon Time to 'hf ' with Sunday Violent and the meta rn is feelin like playin some action packed game in the emulator with legendaries lookin like characters from game of thrones LOL. But let's see stuff cuz patience ain't the :ss/klefki: to success, it's pure skill.
 
as a concept tera seems super super broken for draft leagues but we can’t know without practical evidence. rn most leagues are testing using Tera captains and banning terablast which is probably the best way to test it atm
 

jeronipuff

Man made the web, you don't need a name.
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
how do you feel about tera in draft leagues? How should it be implemented in your opinion?
it's tough to say, it could be done to where you know what mons can tera and you choose the tera they will be but there's a lot of complexity in that because there clearly are some mons that benefit on a much larger scale than others... does that further effect their pricing idk
 
Ye it's super hard to say so early into the gen how tera SHOULD be handled. Z move captains 2.0 in "Tera-captains" seems like the optimal way to me for sure, picking what specific types they could tera into before hand might also be funny. Hard to say.

Gen 9 pricing is gonna be scuffed asf anyway because powercreep is nuts in every format except like fucking LC imo. Shit like spec was already buffed, it could still SLAY with some tera shit, Regieleki possibly getting bolt beam will also be fucking stupid to prep against. Cannot wait for leagues overpricing spec in gen 8 to finally feel something too.

it's tough to say, it could be done to where you know what mons can tera and you choose the tera they will be but there's a lot of complexity in that because there clearly are some mons that benefit on a much larger scale than others... does that further effect their pricing idk
This is absolutely me trying my best to sound somewhat like ik wtf is going on.
 
I know I'm days late on it but in regards to tera but imo its completely busted even in draft and the hoops to jump through to make it even remotely competitive are questionable at best if they will work

Why It is Broken
Just so its clear the thing that completely breaks tera is the type altering mechanic, being able to just change your typing forever on the fly with no penalty completely invalidates any reasonable counterplay, checks no longer are checks but just victims to the whims of whatever it decides to turn into and then you have to guess (this is best seen in current OU with annihlape running tera water to cheese past a mon that would otherwise stop its sweep and instead loses to it or garganacl's ghost body press set and of course roaring moons sudden stab acrobatics) If you guess the tera in teambuilding wrong you will lose, even if its right you still now are burning prep for that sweeper to turn into literally anything or just hoping your tera user counters their tera user. The other use of tera, a stab bonus essentially giving you adaptability, is extremely good as well but I don't think its totally game breaking (borderline on some mons but that can be solved with pricing/tiers/etc) it also has absolutely no drawbacks.

Ok so just limit Tera to STAB only
See the problem is you can't. Even if you make it stabs only it still creates heavy guessing games for dual type mons and makes them mono type and removes things from being able to check it on top of getting stronger attacks. Giving adaptability to certain high powered offensive mons is also extremely difficult to deal with and will cause a complete overhaul to tiering. This limitation would only serve to invalidate defensive tera play and devolve the mechanic into sweepers or choiced breakers essentially serving as a superpowered version of z moves that allows you to take extra hits from something that should have beaten you but now you don't.

The Z comparison
Every so often I'll see people try and compare tera to Z and while I understand why at a surface level (both significantly enhance sweeping/breaking) and want to treat it like z moves. There are a few problem with this though.
1. Z moves are single use. You could play around z by baiting/protecting then going from there. Tera last till you die
2. The Item slot. You trade your item for the nuclear ability of Z moves. Tera cost you nothing except what maybe a couple of resistances but in exchange you lose weaknesses as well on top of the STAB and you get to run choice items/life orb/etc
3. The controversy around Z to begin with, while not an opinion I agree with alot of people really did not like z moves (there is a reason mega evolutions are constantly brought back despite not being in gen 8 at all and z was left behind) because its ability to allow mons to BS past checks. This is that but to a new extreme. I'll fully admit this has nothing to actually do with the mechanic but rather the community at large but things are sometimes done not because its a good idea but because the community wants to.

TL, DR
Tera cannot be allowed in its full form in draft even with a captain. The only possible viable solution is captain + stabs only but this will still prove to be way too strong especially on dual types who can remove weaknesses to get a way stronger stab option that will overrun any defensive counterplay by power and offensive counterplay by type change and boosting. If the type change didn't happen it could be possible to save. Apologies if I'm all over the place typing out long nonsense is not my strong suit I get distracted and go 12 different directions at once.
 
I know I'm days late on it but in regards to tera but imo its completely busted even in draft and the hoops to jump through to make it even remotely competitive are questionable at best if they will work

Why It is Broken
Just so its clear the thing that completely breaks tera is the type altering mechanic, being able to just change your typing forever on the fly with no penalty completely invalidates any reasonable counterplay, checks no longer are checks but just victims to the whims of whatever it decides to turn into and then you have to guess (this is best seen in current OU with annihlape running tera water to cheese past a mon that would otherwise stop its sweep and instead loses to it or garganacl's ghost body press set and of course roaring moons sudden stab acrobatics) If you guess the tera in teambuilding wrong you will lose, even if its right you still now are burning prep for that sweeper to turn into literally anything or just hoping your tera user counters their tera user. The other use of tera, a stab bonus essentially giving you adaptability, is extremely good as well but I don't think its totally game breaking (borderline on some mons but that can be solved with pricing/tiers/etc) it also has absolutely no drawbacks.

Ok so just limit Tera to STAB only
See the problem is you can't. Even if you make it stabs only it still creates heavy guessing games for dual type mons and makes them mono type and removes things from being able to check it on top of getting stronger attacks. Giving adaptability to certain high powered offensive mons is also extremely difficult to deal with and will cause a complete overhaul to tiering. This limitation would only serve to invalidate defensive tera play and devolve the mechanic into sweepers or choiced breakers essentially serving as a superpowered version of z moves that allows you to take extra hits from something that should have beaten you but now you don't.

The Z comparison
Every so often I'll see people try and compare tera to Z and while I understand why at a surface level (both significantly enhance sweeping/breaking) and want to treat it like z moves. There are a few problem with this though.
1. Z moves are single use. You could play around z by baiting/protecting then going from there. Tera last till you die
2. The Item slot. You trade your item for the nuclear ability of Z moves. Tera cost you nothing except what maybe a couple of resistances but in exchange you lose weaknesses as well on top of the STAB and you get to run choice items/life orb/etc
3. The controversy around Z to begin with, while not an opinion I agree with alot of people really did not like z moves (there is a reason mega evolutions are constantly brought back despite not being in gen 8 at all and z was left behind) because its ability to allow mons to BS past checks. This is that but to a new extreme. I'll fully admit this has nothing to actually do with the mechanic but rather the community at large but things are sometimes done not because its a good idea but because the community wants to.

TL, DR
Tera cannot be allowed in its full form in draft even with a captain. The only possible viable solution is captain + stabs only but this will still prove to be way too strong especially on dual types who can remove weaknesses to get a way stronger stab option that will overrun any defensive counterplay by power and offensive counterplay by type change and boosting. If the type change didn't happen it could be possible to save. Apologies if I'm all over the place typing out long nonsense is not my strong suit I get distracted and go 12 different directions at once.
I agree with most of the sentiments in this post. I feel like there are quite a lot of bad arguments when it comes to tera, which comes from desperation of wanting to implement a new mechanic into our metagame.

I am going to piggyback off of your points a bit, but there are three main aspects to terastallizing that make it broken in my opinion:

1. The Flexibility of the Mechanic.
Every game there is the possibility of 6 different Pokémon on a team that can be terastallized into any typing. It also allows players to decide who to terastallize on the fly, based off of how the game plays out. This can be unreasonable for people to be prepared for.

2. The Offensive Potency
Whether it is giving Regieleki ice stab so it can hit grounds or giving Dragapult an adaptability boost to hit even harder, there is no denying how easy it is to offensively create progress with terastallizing.

3. The Bulky Set-Up Potency
Being able to change your defensive typing on the fly while also still keeping the STAB of the original typing is such a boon for potential late game win conditions. Pokémon like Dragonite can get completely passed their x4 weakness and make it incredibly hard to revenge them.

Now I would like to go back to your point of the only possible viable solution, being to have tera type captains that are only allowed to utilize their stabs. Having tera type captains naturally fixes most of the first problem, and limiting it to STAB does help the second and third problem, but to varying degrees. The point I disagree with, however, is that this is the only solution. I believe that between our naturally more customizable format and the inherit flexibility of terastallizing, it is very plausible to come up with multiple solutions to help balance the mechanic.

To use your own idea, we can further restrict the Pokémon that become imbalanced in that ruleset, likely the more speedy, versatile Pokémon like Dragapult. While I do agree that this mechanic is a lot stronger than Z moves and do not have the same opportunity cost, that does not mean we can't balance it like Z moves. If Z moves were the only thing that made a Pokémon ban worthy, there was always the option to just ban Z moves on that specific Pokémon. If the faster, stronger Pokémon are banned from using the mechanic, the slower ones can be more reasonably counterplayed by abusing their speed.

I'd imagine there are going to be a lot of different rulesets that are going to be tried, with some of them failing and others hopefully succeeding. Regardless I think it will be a fun ride and I am personally looking forward to it!
 
Regarding Terastallizing in Draft Leagues

I'd like to very clearly start with stating that one of the great things about Draft Leagues is that every single league can use and enforce the rules that they, and their participating players, have agreed on. This means that there are draft leagues where people have only played with the Pokémon available in the Gen VIII games, leagues where people have used all Pokémon available from Gens I-VIII (including Megas), and even league where moves that have been cut from the game (such as Hidden Power or Pursuit) are allowed and usable within these leagues. I am a great proponent of all these leagues, as this means that there is a league for people with all kinds of interest. I haven't even mentioned yet that there are draft leagues with different ban lists, doubles leagues, Little Cup leagues, etc. Draft Leagues come in all shapes and forms.

That being said, I am here today to speak on behalf of allowing terastallizing in Draft Leagues, albeit in a restricted format. This is merely aimed to inform and advice owners and admins of Draft Leagues (as well as perhaps spark a discussion), and I of course expect that people are going to agree, disagree, and will organize and play in the ways that they prefer.

Precedents

Before Gen IX, there have been multiple gimmicks. Gen V had gems, but I am going to skip Gen V in this example, since, to my knowledge and experience, Draft Leagues only rose to prominence (and perhaps even existence) starting in Gen VI, XY/ORAS. In this generation, Mega Evolution was introduced.

From what I have seen, read, and experienced, leagues generally allowed players to draft 1 Mega Pokémon (either from a pool of Mega Pokémon, or, in a points based system, having these Megas all be worth some amount of points out of the total amount of points available to the players to draft from). This in itself was a slight restriction, though I doubt many players would see it this way; drafting multiple Mega Pokémon generally wasn't seen as optimal, since this Pokémon had to hold the Mega Stone, and it would mean you could only ever Mega Evolve one of these 2 or more drafted Megas. Mega Pokémon were not generally regarded as a broken mechanic, though some Mega Pokémon were individually banned from most Draft Leagues, such as Mega Lucario, Mega Salamence, or Mega Metagross. The banlist of course could be different from league to league. There were also differing rules between leagues whether or not you had to Mega Evolve your drafted Mega Pokémon on the first turn it went for a move or not. This was particularly interesting in regards to Mega Diancie (which goes from base 50 speed to base 110 speed and loses a lot of bulk when it mega evolves) and Mega Gyarados (which has a ground immunity as long as it is not mega evolved, and gains a psychic immunity -as well as bulk- when it does). There are other cases, such as Garchomp having 10 more base speed before Mega Evolving, or Mega Altaria having access to Natural Cure before mega evolving, but I think the point stands: There is a definite competitive difference between having to click the Mega Evolve button the first time the Mega of the team clicks a move, and not having to do so. This rule, regarding whether or not players have to Mega Evolve the first turn they clicked a move or not, was still discussed in generation VII, where Mega Evolutions reigned supreme still. Proponents of the rule said that the players specifically drafted the Mega Evolution, not the base form, and were therefore not allowed to stay in the base form. Opponents of the rule said it took away some part of what makes competitive Pokémon competitive: Making choices that influence the state of the game. I am not here to argue either way.

In generation VII, Z-moves were introduced. This was yet another strong mechanic introduced that leagues handled differently than others. Most leagues I have seen, have decided on having players appoint one (or more!) "Z-Captain(s)". This means that only this or these Pokémon were allowed to use Z-moves. This restriction was placed on many Draft Leagues for the reason that they felt it was impossible to make a counter draft against all possible Z-moves. If they know what Pokémon can carry the Z crystal, they can prepare for it in their drafting. Of course, the teams often had quite obvious Z-move users of choice. Kartana, for example, was a great user of Z-moves, since it very simply allowed it to power through it would-be checks, such as Zapdos, Tornadus-T, Mega Scizor etc., with the likes of Z-Giga Impact for a 200 base power move or Z-Sacred Sword for a 175 base power fighting type move. Even the choice to allow Z crystals in this format is, to this day, discussed about whether it is broken or not. Something else to consider in generation VII is that the fact that all teams could have a Mega Evolution and a Z-Move user on the same team, nerfed Knock Off and Trick as moves, since Knock Off would be 65 base power rather than 97.5, and also did not knock an item versus either of them, and trick would flat out fail versus either (making it a harder move to lock into on choice users). Z-moves have been, and still are, incredibly powerful tools that allow sweepers or wallbreakers to get a kill on their opponent with more ease, and also call for more guesswork. Even if you know the Pokémon in front of you is carrying or can carry a Z Crystal, that does not mean they have to click it this turn. They can still predict you to switch on the Z-move. This can definitely call for 50/50 situations. Another thing about Z crystals, is that many different leagues banned the usage of omniboosting Z-moves, such as Z-Celebrate, as this was seen as uncompetitively good; broken. Some leagues banned the usage of Mewnium Z, others did not.

In generation VIII, things start getting a little bit wild. With the introduction of Dynamax and Gigantamax comes the strongest mechanic yet. The added bulk, the added power to the moves and the additional effects moves get, made Dynamax and Gigantamax very hard to argue in competitive singles. Giving a single Pokémon all these boosts without drawback (no item restriction, as was the case for Z-move/Mega) made it too good. I have personally not seen a single league that has allowed dynamax in a serious setting, though I would be surprised if they didn't exist. I have followed VGC loosely, and have seen and understood that in a doubles format, it seems fun and at least somewhat balanced. In singles, it made it way too easy to sweep the opponent with the offensive or speed boosts when paired with setup moves before Dynamaxing. Pokémon even became immune to weight-based moves such as low kick or grass knot, which sometimes is the only good coverage option opposing Pokémon might have for the Dynamaxed Pokémon.


Current affairs

As it stands, the OU council and Smogon as a whole is discussing on whether or not to allow Terastallizing in their format. Now, regardless of what the outcome of that is, Draft Leagues are, and will make their own choices regarding Terastallizing. We have restricted the usage of Mega Pokémon when Smogon did not. We have restricted the use of (possible) Z-Move userswhen Smogon did not. We have played with the rules we deemed to be both competitive and fun. We have seen and showed that these rules work, and allow both opponents to create the best working draft against the other.

Why Terastallizing is not uncompetitive in Draft League

Unlike Dynamaxing, Terastallizing does not boost any stats. No bulk is gained upon clicking the button, and no extra benefits are to be had from clicking a move, other than its intended purpose of doing damage or doing its status. There is, of course, a difference in power in regards to a move suddenly gaining STAB whereas before it did not, or a STAB move suddenly gaining more power due to the opponent Terastallizing into one of their existing STAB types. Besides this, there is a huge difference in defensive typing, as a Flying type becoming Steel suddenly resists rock instead of being weak to it, or a Fire type becoming Grass is suddenly the one threatening the Water Type rather than vice versa. Mind you, this newly gained Steel Type Pokémon is now weak to Ground Moves, where it before was immune! This newly gained Grass type is now weak to Ice, rather than resisting it. The new typing is not perfect, though it often benefits the user in the current situation. I am not here to argue that Terastallizing isn't strong. I am saying we have a very easy power to limit it. The precedent is right there with Z-Moves: We appoint a Tera captain.

In draft, information is everything. Knowing what Pokémon your opponent could Terastallize, and preparing for this the best ways possible is, in my opinion, the heart and soul of playing in Draft Leagues. We have previously seen that by taking away much of the guessing factor by appointing a single (or a few) user(s) of the mechanic, preparations can be made to try and counter this. Z-Captains were, if I may be so bold, a success. Yes, they were powerful, but also limited and could be seen coming from afar. If teams are allowed to appoint a single Tera-Captain, I think this can turn out to be fair, competitive, and fun. Something to keep in mind is that there may very well be some Pokémon that become too strong to handle with Terastallizing. We can only truly find that out through testing and trying. We can also ban these specific Pokémon, or not allow them to be chosen as Tera-Captain. The fun part of Draft Leagues is that we can complex ban anything we want, unlike Smogon.

Additionally, Draft Leagues can themselves decide on whether or not Terablast should be allowed in a League where Terastallizing is allowed. I myself think this adds on to the fun of Terastallizing, but I can understand opponents of this move, since it gives Pokémon infinite coverage moves.

Give Terastallizing a chance, in the form of Tera-Captains.
 
I think people might be focusing too much on reimplementing previous solutions just for the sake of familiarity, rather than playing to the strengths of the format. Only having a single Mega to draft made sense, because only one of your pokemon could be a mega anyway. It would be wasteful to pick two pokemon that could NEVER be on the same team together, so building the draft around it made sense. The issue with Z-moves was their scale. There were just too many options to cover every case, so limiting it to one pokemon and its small handful of usable Z-moves made sense. Again, building around the meta.

Trying to shoehorn Tera into the same setup wont work well, imo. It would still lead to too much variety on each Tera-captain. If you limit it to STAB-Tera, instead you run into a different issue. Not all Pokemon prefer to be STAB Tera, and some VERY MUCH do prefer it. All this will do is force people into picking the latter group of pokemon more heavily for their Tera-captains, and while consistency is important, lack of flexibility runs directly counter to the entire concept of the draft format.

So, I'd make an entirely different suggestion. Play in the space more. Don't draft Tera-captains. Draft Tera Types themselves. At the end of all your pokemon picks, each team gets to pick X types to use as Tera types. I personally would recommend 3 types, as this allows a good balance of Defensive, Bonus STAB, and New STAB Tera Types. This allows coaches to introduce some more flexibility into their team to counter bad matchups, while also limiting the pool enough to not make countering it blind luck. I feel like that would be the healthiest design space to work in, outside of petmods to change out Tera Types work at a baseline level.
 

chimp

Go Bananas
is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I think people might be focusing too much on reimplementing previous solutions just for the sake of familiarity, rather than playing to the strengths of the format. Only having a single Mega to draft made sense, because only one of your pokemon could be a mega anyway. It would be wasteful to pick two pokemon that could NEVER be on the same team together, so building the draft around it made sense. The issue with Z-moves was their scale. There were just too many options to cover every case, so limiting it to one pokemon and its small handful of usable Z-moves made sense. Again, building around the meta.

Trying to shoehorn Tera into the same setup wont work well, imo. It would still lead to too much variety on each Tera-captain. If you limit it to STAB-Tera, instead you run into a different issue. Not all Pokemon prefer to be STAB Tera, and some VERY MUCH do prefer it. All this will do is force people into picking the latter group of pokemon more heavily for their Tera-captains, and while consistency is important, lack of flexibility runs directly counter to the entire concept of the draft format.

So, I'd make an entirely different suggestion. Play in the space more. Don't draft Tera-captains. Draft Tera Types themselves. At the end of all your pokemon picks, each team gets to pick X types to use as Tera types. I personally would recommend 3 types, as this allows a good balance of Defensive, Bonus STAB, and New STAB Tera Types. This allows coaches to introduce some more flexibility into their team to counter bad matchups, while also limiting the pool enough to not make countering it blind luck. I feel like that would be the healthiest design space to work in, outside of petmods to change out Tera Types work at a baseline level.
I like this idea but I feel like 3 is too much. I think 1 type is good enough. Draft is already so match-up based; the thought of having to prep for, say, four different Garchomps, four different Chi-yus and four different Iron Valiants just feels like too much in my opinion. I think the scale problem you mentioned with Z-Moves applies quite a bit to Tera as well, so I really have no issue with a Tera Captain. Maybe Tera CaptainS; no need to necessarily limit it to one Pokemon, maybe assign point value’s to making a certain Pokemon a captain.
 

AngularPenny5

[Spheal Squad]
I already explained how hazards do very little if nothing because not only up to 4 of the members of the core can have reliable recovery
This is about Ting Lu and Dondozo right? Neither of them has reliable recovery? Hazards will wear them down a lot especially if they're constantly switching.
 

Lady Writer

on the tv
is a Tiering Contributor
I decided to move the discussion here since you are right about that thread not being for discussions.
the reason why I didn't move it to the discord server is because here the comments stay while in discord they dissapear,also in discord it is hard to break down long comments.



oops, I didn't "ignore them" its more like I commented on them on vmunes and I forgot to copy-paste that part on your comment.
the suggestions you mentioned often either come at a big opportunity cost or just aren't viable.
I already explained how hazards do very little if nothing because not only up to 4 of the members of the core can have reliable recovery but also the owner of the core may have a defogger,and defog can only be blocked by gholdengo which is a pokemon that not everyone can afford.
if you're not willing to take the suggestions of the people who have responded to your ill-advised claims then draft probably isn't the format for you
 
is the ban list of the draft ever going to be updated? I am asking because dondozo and ting-lu are hard to break walls if you are not well prepared and they can make all shorts of defensive cores with other pokemon so there should be some way to either fully or partially ban them.
sorry but this gen draft became apart of smogon instead of being independent from it like before. and as we all know smogon is in a toxic loveless one-sided marriage with stall so atm it seems very unlikely that any stall mons or cores will be limited for the foreseeable future . fun always dies by smogon hands
 

Concept Everything

Neko no Ensekan
is a Pre-Contributor
sorry but this gen draft became apart of smogon instead of being independent from it like before. and as we all know smogon is in a toxic loveless one-sided marriage with stall so atm it seems very unlikely that any stall mons or cores will be limited for the foreseeable future . fun always dies by smogon hands
Each draft league has their own rules, tiering decisions, banned items and banned Pokémon, this is undisputed wherever you decide to participate. This isn’t a concept exclusive to the Smogon Draft League. Draft leagues are still independent from Smogon and the same goes for the Smogon Draft League, they do not represent each individual draft league across the Internet.

The bans and initial tiering decisions were at first decided by the staff who also play draft formats. Users were more than able to suggest bans or tier shifts, which in fact got a few Pokémon’s points changed or outright banned. Community input and suggestions were recommended, you cannot say the entirety of Smogon is in a “toxic loveless one-sided marriage with stall” simply because you are ill prepped vs a balance team and didn’t actually think about your team composition or what it is weak to.

You cannot realistically expect everyone participating in the tournament to not have actual drafts, good pokemon, or decent cores when everyone is playing to win.
 
Each draft league has their own rules, tiering decisions, banned items and banned Pokémon, this is undisputed wherever you decide to participate. This isn’t a concept exclusive to the Smogon Draft League. Draft leagues are still independent from Smogon and the same goes for the Smogon Draft League, they do not represent each individual draft league across the Internet.

The bans and initial tiering decisions were at first decided by the staff who also play draft formats. Users were more than able to suggest bans or tier shifts, which in fact got a few Pokémon’s points changed or outright banned. Community input and suggestions were recommended, you cannot say the entirety of Smogon is in a “toxic loveless one-sided marriage with stall” simply because you are ill prepped vs a balance team and didn’t actually think about your team composition or what it is weak to.

You cannot realistically expect everyone participating in the tournament to not have actual drafts, good pokemon, or decent cores when everyone is playing to win.
sigh another shill who sold there once youthful soul to smogon conglomerate. pokemon should be about fun and whats so fun about playing 325turns vs a rest talk dondozo paired with leftovers protect ting-lu and wish protect sylveon. also the smogon kickoff tour is a very popular event for draft and will likely define the pre-home meta. if an OP stall teams ends up winning then what style becomes the most popular? absolutely appalling, im so appalled i will close my computer so i wont be appalled anymore
 

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