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Suspect SV AAA Suspect #3: gold rush (Gholdengo)
- Thread starter UT
- Start date
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ladder is fucking miserable, lost 3 times to the most random shit from people with negative gxe (who the HELL runs ice spinner psychic fangs armor tail chien pao and dazzling great tusk which i ran into TWICE)
i find gholdengo to be insanely overpowered. well baked body on it can be absurdly punishing because a +2 def boost completely flips matchups against most of its checks. you cant even reliably ground coverage it bc earth eater is so good on it too. you can't check it with your own bproof gholdengo bc it's bulletproof too. bliss can get scarftricked, yellow magiced or set up on if it isnt unaware so it's an uphill battle. to be blunt, if you're losing w/ this mon and the opp doesn't have their own, you're prob just bad. the versatility on this thing is insane and it's a laughably easy ban for me, it's probably the vote i'm most sure about on my time in this site and i literally laddered for mega gallade in sm uu.
on a side note, orthworm/shed tail, bax, great tusk, iron moth and dnite are all insanely broken as well. half of these things should be qb votes imo, but we're so close to a new meta anyway so w/e.
Team used
I've seen a lot of points about how Gholdengo's set variety makes it extremely difficult to deal with. I've also seen a lot of people calling for bans on Baxcalibur and Dragonite due to their setup sets being extremely difficult to check. As such, we should unban Imposter. Doing so would provide a powerful scouting tool and setup check, alleviating these problems./j
Confirming, Team used, not that good but cool things going on, talon is a beast again
Will edit post later with more complete thoughts, but will be voting Ban, Gholdengo is way too restricting offensively, great glue but like look at how it can just elect to beat every defensive option if it wants to. I see him too much, and i see him decide the games hes in too much. Its joever for gholdenblower
Leaning towards Ban.
Ty to LordBox and AlexSaysBruh123 for posting their teams. They are really good uwu.
Houndstone should be banned.
Last edited:
Confirming as AAAGJ Fearless (the secret is using Taylor Swift alts)
I am less decided than I thought I would be, but leaning ban. I used a lightly modified QT team, thanks again friend.
I am less decided than I thought I would be, but leaning ban. I used a lightly modified QT team, thanks again friend.
Team used, personally this works really well for me and my playstyle but you can change it up if you want. Flowchart is generally lead Orth if there are no Fire-type special attackers on the other side, Shed Tail into either Polt or Hari depending on MU, and 90% of the time you autowin. If they have something like DesoLand Moth, lead Dragonite, click DD once, then hard into Orth, I promise you no one expects it.
Ghold is bullshit and this fact is pretty obvious, but I wanna quickly talk about how stupid Shed Tail is. So many balanced mons (Ceruledge, Polteageist, Hariyama, Lucario, Baxxicalbur) become ultra-broken with the free turn that Shed Tail provides. Ex: something like EE Wisp Rotom-Wash can switch into Bax normally, but Shed Tail throws that counterplay out the window and turns counters into setup bait. That, in essence, is what makes Shed Tail so broken. On top of that, Shed Tail HO has so many options at its disposal to ruin even the most niche counterplay, like CM Armarouge if your team hates priority, or Prankster Orth + a Fire immunity if you wanna say "fuck you" to Iron Moth leads. Preparing for the endless possibilities that Shed Tail provides is an absolute nightmare in builder, and while Shed Tail HO can't run all of its 20-30 powerful breakers at once, simply denying the Shed Tail in the first place is a difficult task since giving Orth one free turn can mean game against even well-built teams and good players. A lot of the mons that people are calling broken like Bax and Gengar only because broken when supported by Shed Tail imo, and I would like to see a quickban on it after this suspect ended, because having to ladder this shit a second time for a Shed Tail suspect is not something I don't think anyone enjoys.
Also I noticed this late but why were the reqs changed for this suspect? It increased from 75 GXE last time to 78 GXE.
combination of meta is more stable + ladder is more active; 75% GXE for a ladder getting 125k plays seems silly.
Stole NToTheN's team to get this. It was a heck of some games and took me actually multiple alts since I just figured I might as well restart. This tier feels very match-up heavy and I suppose that's a little ironic coming from someone thats a PH main and leader but it really feels heavy in this area to me. There are many pokemon I find are problematic Moth's BAX, Chien-pao to a smaller degree, Tusk, HOUNDSTONE, and Gold are also among these. But also as I laddered I usually didn't find myself screwed by Gold as much as many other random mons. It's actually a large number of pokemon that can just run a specific set and screw your teams over or at least give heavy favor to the other side. Bax and Houndstone actually straight-up auto-win games sometimes and those are by far the 2 worst mons I have faced. This current style of a meta I think Gold is fine actually. Because there's so many mons that can do similar things and just run all sorts of sets that win games or give heavy favor in the match up.. But also I find the defensive utility even on this really aggressive pokemon to be helpful in this meta. It's for sure an S-rank mon but I don't find it any more of an issue than Tusk Moths or other extremely hard-hitting attackers in some games. So for now leaning towards do not ban and leaning more towards a suspect on houndstone and bax. next.
Why imo Joe Gholden should be B
First off, i love this mon. Hes very cool. Its like the AAA Aegislash we never had. Doublade was so lame. But maybe AAAegislash wasnt a thing for a reason. Ghost/Steel is busted. It has like what 5 immunities 20 resistances or something. This mon is Magearna, has like infinite defensive utility. But the offensive sets are too crazy. And thats not to take away from the defensive sets, because these 2 bleed over very easily. Every set is providing a high amount of defense/offense. You have to prep for it all anyways because with its great defensive capabilties, it will get many turns and bust through your team. Very hard to limit with offensive cplay. Obv if you're running HO you can limit it to one trade.
Before i get into the abilities of the sets, ill preface by saying you can reasonably get away with any of the above EV combination, move combination, and item on any of these
First sets: Well-Baked Body / Earth Eater
Probably the most "okay" sets on this mon, and definitely the most splashable by virtue of providing the most defensive utility. These ones are great because they provide a wall to numerous very dangerous mons, and can very easily fit onto any team, and start the offensive gameplan. It is very easy to make both offensive and defensive cores with these. They get the most amount of turns, and thus the most free np's and such. If you dont have a gameplan you will lose, many teams flat out lose to a +2 defense WBB gholdengo. Since the options for actually killing these sets are so limited, they benefit the most from a resist berry to claim a free mon. Also insane longevity, great damage output even without EV's/Item. What makes Gholdengo such a good wall from others, is its the complete opposite of passive, making it much more effective in every game. EE in particular can also effectively spinblock Great Tusk without being a giga unviable mon like drifblim, making hazard stack more potent. These 2 sets together truly blanket check so much of the metagame, in an unhealthy manner imo.
Next set: Magic Guard
This one (and its derivatives like steelworker, beads of ruin) for me, are what really push this mon over the edge. The damage output is simply ridiculous, and there are no good checks, let lone short term checks, let alone actual counters, and dont @ me with some ultra bad blissey set. By virtue of being a Molden Goeseph, it still packs immense defensive utility and gets plenty of opportunities. In particular it completely abuses Garganacl, without needing a covert cloak (which other gholden sets are by far the best user of cloak btw, since they least need their item). If you think there is defensive answers to this thing, there arent. You cant even really midground or like send in a guy once to take a hit and scare out.
Now despite these calcs, there are a couple things that may prove annoying, but luckily Joseph learns every coverage move it needs. And more importantly, you can really afford these moves on Magic Guard, since the base damage output is so high i dont believe you need Nasty Plot, or another non attacking move. Recover 3a sets work quite well. Dazzling Gleam is my favorite, since it lures and deletes roaring moon out of the game much quicker to open up other partners. Focus Blast is another option to snipe all the darks especially Kingambit, though less needed since you beat them all anyways. It does beat Regenvest Iron Treads however which. Psyshock snipes Iron Moth. You can also run Thunder wave + Hex sets on MG, really making life difficult for these "checks" and gets around SPDEF BULLETPROOF GHOLDENGO, which literally only exists to beat other Gholdengo and yet still loses to some of the sets.
Together, these 3 (and more) sets make teambuilding incredibly restrictive. What can you actually add to your team that doesnt lose to some Gholdengo set? And im not even talking niche random sets that are bad arguments, these are all very real and common options. If you think your team is good against Gholdengo, it isnt. You've likely just not been put into practice by a good team/player.
Next, i'll go over individually some of the more popular checks, and illustrate their faults, and the myriad of situations they can end up losing in gameplay. Now they all (for the most part) fare better against the non offensive sets, but that is not to say the defensive sets also dont have options.
They can as well drop some random coverage move, run Twave/Hex, or just outlast you. I will concede though that not every set will win, and sometimes yeah it can just be blanked all game. But thats on the user, and they decided that was worth the other benefits in teambuilding.
Roaring Moon: Cant even ohko, 0 ev Gholden meaning they can always choose to take the hp trade down, def cant vs defensive sets. Literally loses to WBB if it got the +2 defense procc. Loses to Magic Guard over time by raw damage. Annoyed by twave and dazzling gleam. Really hates hazards being up and rocky helmet partners as well. All and all still probably the best check :P
Kingambit: Needs a very specially defensive set, has no recovery outside of leftovers. Btw doesnt even ohko with 0 ev, no boosting item/ability kowtow cleave. Sniped by Focus Blast. More importantly, does not have a pivoting move or recovery. Gets walled infinitely by Body press Corv and Great Tusk. Very easy to wear down, also hates spikes.
Iron Moth: Well-Baked Body moment... hates twave too. Sniped by Psyshock too but i will concede that option sucks. Probably 2nd best check?
Ting-Lu: Loses to WBB if it gets +2. Loses to Earth Eater because yeah. Loses to Magic guard by raw damage.
Bulletproof Gholdengo: Loses to hex but thats it. I think its pretty telling that this set both exists, is real, and kinda common. Centralizing much?
Iron Treads: Actually really solid, loses to EE in a 1v1 but if you can volt switch out to a revenge killer thats good. However, this mon is quite far from viable itself, and gives up the much coveted regen slot, not beating too much else.
Blissey: You're using blissey in gen 9 aaa..... Also you need the very passive and utility lacking cm + shadow ball set to beat any set with NP. By far the most hurt by trick Gholdengo as well.
Im sure i probably missed some, but this small sample is a good way to illustrate how truly shaky everything is. Ofc Gholdengo cant be everything at once, but niether can you. And they can build the rest of thier team to cover the holes.
One fun thing to notice is, how terrible (most) these mons are into Regenerator Great Tusk, being helplessly walled and giving up free turns. The combination of Gholden + Tusk is probably on 130% of teams by now. Not a good look when Tusk is volt blocking your Iron Treads.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The unpredictability aspect is one i dont personally rate too highly, but is definitely a factor and makes it very annoying. Not all teams are blessed with the room to be able to scout these things out. To quote Isaiah, "an unrevealed gholdengo is quadruple ubers" or something like that. You can guess the set from preview, just not every time. Especially when theres mons like a Corviknight as well on the team, you truly cant know until revealed. What you really cant guess is the moveset and the intricacies like the item. Trying to scout is giving up Np's. But the guessing argument in general i think doesnt really matter. What does it matter if you know its set if it still beats you anyways.
On a broader note, to wrap up this long ramble, this mon is way too restricting on the teambuilder imo. Very hard to build a team with every set in mind. What i personally do, is just shut my eyes and pretend some things arent real so i dont have to account for them (bring focus blast vs me for a free win). Even worse, i think this is a mon that gets even better in the gameplay than in the builder. Sometimes it can just stonewall your opponent from ever making progress. Because of how maleable it is, entire gameplans and strategies can be built around it that take effect in gameplay, slowly winning out over even its checks. The mon doesnt always sweep, or even take a kill but it doesnt neccesarily have to have a great impact on the game. Every time its in it forces the opponent to play in a way you can potentially capitalize on. Way too influential in every game, warping id say.
Is it really holding things together, or is it just Jolden Giuseppe's world and we are living in it?
Btw just because it keeps Baxcalibur from killing everything doesnt mean its healthy
First off, i love this mon. Hes very cool. Its like the AAA Aegislash we never had. Doublade was so lame. But maybe AAAegislash wasnt a thing for a reason. Ghost/Steel is busted. It has like what 5 immunities 20 resistances or something. This mon is Magearna, has like infinite defensive utility. But the offensive sets are too crazy. And thats not to take away from the defensive sets, because these 2 bleed over very easily. Every set is providing a high amount of defense/offense. You have to prep for it all anyways because with its great defensive capabilties, it will get many turns and bust through your team. Very hard to limit with offensive cplay. Obv if you're running HO you can limit it to one trade.
Gholdengo @ Leftovers / Covert Cloak / Choice Scarf / Choice Specs / Life Orb / Colbur Berry / Shuca Berry / Air Balloon
Ability: Well-Baked Body / Earth Eater / Magic Guard / Bulletproof / Water Absorb / Steelworker / Beads of Ruin / Levitate / etc etc
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: Literally everything
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball / Hex
- Make It Rain / Steel Beam / Thunder Wave / Substitute / Dazzling Gleam / Focus Blast / Psyshock
- Nasty Plot / Trick / Recover / Make It Rain / Substitute / Dazzling Gleam / Focus Blast / Psyshock
- Recover / Nasty Plot / Trick
Now this is more for visual sake, and some options less good than others but now i'll be getting more into the actual sets, how they each excel, and how they all interlace together to create such a constricting grip on the metagame:
Ability: Well-Baked Body / Earth Eater / Magic Guard / Bulletproof / Water Absorb / Steelworker / Beads of Ruin / Levitate / etc etc
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: Literally everything
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball / Hex
- Make It Rain / Steel Beam / Thunder Wave / Substitute / Dazzling Gleam / Focus Blast / Psyshock
- Nasty Plot / Trick / Recover / Make It Rain / Substitute / Dazzling Gleam / Focus Blast / Psyshock
- Recover / Nasty Plot / Trick
Now this is more for visual sake, and some options less good than others but now i'll be getting more into the actual sets, how they each excel, and how they all interlace together to create such a constricting grip on the metagame:
First sets: Well-Baked Body / Earth Eater
Probably the most "okay" sets on this mon, and definitely the most splashable by virtue of providing the most defensive utility. These ones are great because they provide a wall to numerous very dangerous mons, and can very easily fit onto any team, and start the offensive gameplan. It is very easy to make both offensive and defensive cores with these. They get the most amount of turns, and thus the most free np's and such. If you dont have a gameplan you will lose, many teams flat out lose to a +2 defense WBB gholdengo. Since the options for actually killing these sets are so limited, they benefit the most from a resist berry to claim a free mon. Also insane longevity, great damage output even without EV's/Item. What makes Gholdengo such a good wall from others, is its the complete opposite of passive, making it much more effective in every game. EE in particular can also effectively spinblock Great Tusk without being a giga unviable mon like drifblim, making hazard stack more potent. These 2 sets together truly blanket check so much of the metagame, in an unhealthy manner imo.
Next set: Magic Guard
This one (and its derivatives like steelworker, beads of ruin) for me, are what really push this mon over the edge. The damage output is simply ridiculous, and there are no good checks, let lone short term checks, let alone actual counters, and dont @ me with some ultra bad blissey set. By virtue of being a Molden Goeseph, it still packs immense defensive utility and gets plenty of opportunities. In particular it completely abuses Garganacl, without needing a covert cloak (which other gholden sets are by far the best user of cloak btw, since they least need their item). If you think there is defensive answers to this thing, there arent. You cant even really midground or like send in a guy once to take a hit and scare out.
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Roaring Moon: 160-188 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This mon has been seeing a big increase in usage lately, primarily for this pokemon and even then Steel Beam is outpacing regenerator, +2 Steel Beam almost ohkos, nobody uses this bulky of a roaring moon set, and you dont even Ohko back with crunch/throat chop, meaning they can always elect to stay in and break through
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Moth: 175-207 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Moth: 152-179 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Moth: 285-335 (94.6 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
One of the actual better checks, since it can threathen back, outspeed, and kinda take the hits. But youre forced to constantly heal, and its really shaky relying on this when WBB is so popular. Still would rate it one of the best Gholdengo Checks tbh.
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 190-224 (47 - 55.4%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Literally 2 shotting one of the bulkiest steels in the game with a resisted move, you have to really lean into the spdef to "handle"
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kingambit: 133-156 (32.9 - 38.6%) -- 4.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 218-257 (76.4 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 442-523 (150.8 - 178.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 142-168 (56.5 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinderace: 209-247 (69.4 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
All of our offensive darks/fires, cant even switch in more than once if at all on a resisted hit
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl in Sand: 343-406 (84.9 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 239-282 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 547-645 (126 - 148.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Great Tusk: 367-433 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 277-328 (53.8 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Random Defensive stuff, obv without a steel resist being fat doesnt help you
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 179-211 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 187-222 (46.8 - 55.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You dont even need to guess when youre infront of these mons, dont bother risking a shadow ball into a dark type, just click the steel beam and kill the corv in front of you and the mon behind it
This mon has been seeing a big increase in usage lately, primarily for this pokemon and even then Steel Beam is outpacing regenerator, +2 Steel Beam almost ohkos, nobody uses this bulky of a roaring moon set, and you dont even Ohko back with crunch/throat chop, meaning they can always elect to stay in and break through
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Moth: 175-207 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Moth: 152-179 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Moth: 285-335 (94.6 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
One of the actual better checks, since it can threathen back, outspeed, and kinda take the hits. But youre forced to constantly heal, and its really shaky relying on this when WBB is so popular. Still would rate it one of the best Gholdengo Checks tbh.
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 190-224 (47 - 55.4%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Literally 2 shotting one of the bulkiest steels in the game with a resisted move, you have to really lean into the spdef to "handle"
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kingambit: 133-156 (32.9 - 38.6%) -- 4.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Greninja: 218-257 (76.4 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Meowscarada: 442-523 (150.8 - 178.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chi-Yu: 142-168 (56.5 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinderace: 209-247 (69.4 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
All of our offensive darks/fires, cant even switch in more than once if at all on a resisted hit
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl in Sand: 343-406 (84.9 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 239-282 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 547-645 (126 - 148.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Great Tusk: 367-433 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ting-Lu: 277-328 (53.8 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Random Defensive stuff, obv without a steel resist being fat doesnt help you
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 179-211 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 187-222 (46.8 - 55.6%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You dont even need to guess when youre infront of these mons, dont bother risking a shadow ball into a dark type, just click the steel beam and kill the corv in front of you and the mon behind it
Together, these 3 (and more) sets make teambuilding incredibly restrictive. What can you actually add to your team that doesnt lose to some Gholdengo set? And im not even talking niche random sets that are bad arguments, these are all very real and common options. If you think your team is good against Gholdengo, it isnt. You've likely just not been put into practice by a good team/player.
Next, i'll go over individually some of the more popular checks, and illustrate their faults, and the myriad of situations they can end up losing in gameplay. Now they all (for the most part) fare better against the non offensive sets, but that is not to say the defensive sets also dont have options.
They can as well drop some random coverage move, run Twave/Hex, or just outlast you. I will concede though that not every set will win, and sometimes yeah it can just be blanked all game. But thats on the user, and they decided that was worth the other benefits in teambuilding.
Roaring Moon: Cant even ohko, 0 ev Gholden meaning they can always choose to take the hp trade down, def cant vs defensive sets. Literally loses to WBB if it got the +2 defense procc. Loses to Magic Guard over time by raw damage. Annoyed by twave and dazzling gleam. Really hates hazards being up and rocky helmet partners as well. All and all still probably the best check :P
Kingambit: Needs a very specially defensive set, has no recovery outside of leftovers. Btw doesnt even ohko with 0 ev, no boosting item/ability kowtow cleave. Sniped by Focus Blast. More importantly, does not have a pivoting move or recovery. Gets walled infinitely by Body press Corv and Great Tusk. Very easy to wear down, also hates spikes.
Iron Moth: Well-Baked Body moment... hates twave too. Sniped by Psyshock too but i will concede that option sucks. Probably 2nd best check?
Ting-Lu: Loses to WBB if it gets +2. Loses to Earth Eater because yeah. Loses to Magic guard by raw damage.
Bulletproof Gholdengo: Loses to hex but thats it. I think its pretty telling that this set both exists, is real, and kinda common. Centralizing much?
Iron Treads: Actually really solid, loses to EE in a 1v1 but if you can volt switch out to a revenge killer thats good. However, this mon is quite far from viable itself, and gives up the much coveted regen slot, not beating too much else.
Blissey: You're using blissey in gen 9 aaa..... Also you need the very passive and utility lacking cm + shadow ball set to beat any set with NP. By far the most hurt by trick Gholdengo as well.
Im sure i probably missed some, but this small sample is a good way to illustrate how truly shaky everything is. Ofc Gholdengo cant be everything at once, but niether can you. And they can build the rest of thier team to cover the holes.
One fun thing to notice is, how terrible (most) these mons are into Regenerator Great Tusk, being helplessly walled and giving up free turns. The combination of Gholden + Tusk is probably on 130% of teams by now. Not a good look when Tusk is volt blocking your Iron Treads.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The unpredictability aspect is one i dont personally rate too highly, but is definitely a factor and makes it very annoying. Not all teams are blessed with the room to be able to scout these things out. To quote Isaiah, "an unrevealed gholdengo is quadruple ubers" or something like that. You can guess the set from preview, just not every time. Especially when theres mons like a Corviknight as well on the team, you truly cant know until revealed. What you really cant guess is the moveset and the intricacies like the item. Trying to scout is giving up Np's. But the guessing argument in general i think doesnt really matter. What does it matter if you know its set if it still beats you anyways.
On a broader note, to wrap up this long ramble, this mon is way too restricting on the teambuilder imo. Very hard to build a team with every set in mind. What i personally do, is just shut my eyes and pretend some things arent real so i dont have to account for them (bring focus blast vs me for a free win). Even worse, i think this is a mon that gets even better in the gameplay than in the builder. Sometimes it can just stonewall your opponent from ever making progress. Because of how maleable it is, entire gameplans and strategies can be built around it that take effect in gameplay, slowly winning out over even its checks. The mon doesnt always sweep, or even take a kill but it doesnt neccesarily have to have a great impact on the game. Every time its in it forces the opponent to play in a way you can potentially capitalize on. Way too influential in every game, warping id say.
Is it really holding things together, or is it just Jolden Giuseppe's world and we are living in it?
Btw just because it keeps Baxcalibur from killing everything doesnt mean its healthy
First time playing AAA. I'm a bit iffy on Gholdengo. I like the wide set variety in defensive Earth Eater/Levitate variants, but also with offensive Magic Guard + Life Orb/ Choice Scarf variants. Personally, I'd vote ban because it's too inconsistent to check without diving into random Pokemon counters like unaware Umbreon or Bulletproof Gastrodon. Even with a mediocre Speed tier it's still excellent at whatever it does and is very hard to stop with a free turn.
Baxcalibur is another Pokemon I find to be very oppressive. Has enough bulk to take +1 Dnite ESpeed (w/o LO) and supposed checks like Unaware Pokemon and Toxapex aren't consistent at stopping it. It's easy to setup late-game and sweep given how easy support from Knock Off and how quickly Pokemon can get chipped.
I just want to say I used both of these yesterday, bulletproof gastro also swagdabs on ironmoth, and it gets spikes and sr this gen so I don't think it's that bad, also anyone who plays the tier knows I'm an umbreon user, real casual about it
anyways in hopes that my comment doesn't get deleted I would like to just give my opinion on the topic, not that anyone really cares but, yea gholdengo is very strong maybe ban worthy, but there are answers, even spedef regen great tusk among many others, people just can't handle putting a special wall on their team I guess, I'm more confused and concerned about bax and cheinpao, which have absolutely ridiculous power, I'm running stamina corvik currently just for bax, literally one mon, although it helps 1hko chein after a stamina boost with bodypress, what are the alternatives, do we really have to use avalugg, I don't know man, also gholdengo with earth eater was one of the bax counters so now that's gone as well, hmmmm
The issue is that there really aren't. Let's take a look at some calcs to show how fucked your special wall is against Gholdengo, the basic sets at that:
252 SpA Life Orb Gholdengo Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Great Tusk: 212-251 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 213-252 (53.3 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gholdengo(lol): 204-242 (53.9 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Iron Moth: 180-213 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 718-846 (155 - 182.7%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns
I think you get the picture. But wait, what about Ting-Lu? That's a special wall that eats Gholdengo's hits for breakfast! And it can click Earthquake to hit it! First up, Ting-Lu is quite specific and passive against the rest of the metagame aside from Gholdengo. Secondly, it's Earth Eater, and you're taking like 55 from a Make It Rain. Or what about Bulletproof Gholdengo? Well, they could be TWave + Hex or Bulletproof themselves. Roaring Moon? Steel Beamed to the shadow realm by MGLO. Toxapex? PP stalled by Sub sets. There just isn't a good Gholdengo answer to me, and I think offensive threats should have a consistent answer. If they don't have a consistent answer, they should be linear and easy to abuse with your own offense. Gholdengo is neither of these things, and therefore, I think it is unhealthy.
bulletproof gastro, bulletproof pex, unaware chansey/blissey/umbreon/clodsire, that iron moth set in the calc can win clearly, even more so if it was av regen, or desolate land, we aren't even getting into purifying salt paired with double steel resists or things like that, how about bulletproof rotom w, you quad resist steel and none of the other moves can really get you, things like this that people just aren't exploring at all
we're running into the fallacy of it using every set at once, I run mixed pex, mixed unaware umbreon and regen boots spedef great tusk on the same team and the only time I've ever had a problem with it was a specs tinted lens and I still ended up winning
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It should be noted all of these are rather rare, niche, and some like Bulletproof Pex is basically just for Ghold which isn't a good sign of how healthy a mon is (yeah you use it because you love fat but a lot don't for good reason given how passive they all are). It's also kinda funny but Unaware Blissey can be broken by Steelworker Ghold with chip (from experience), Clodsire by Psyshock, etc*. Yeah sure it can't run every set, but all of the sets, EE, WBB, Steelworker, Tinted Lens, MGLO, Beads of Ruins with random coverage are all viable and good options which, accounting for in the teambuilder, is kinda stupid when I need to pull out the Bulletproof Rotom, which isn't even consistent LOL. (Yes I run Psyshock on MGLO, Iron Moth is an ultra annoying obstacle otherwise. Also are we meant to be talking here and not just here on the main thread?)
I don't know, of course I have a different perspective because I only run stall but I figure that perspective isn't really being shared here much so it might be useful, I think rotom w and gastro can fit on pretty much any team, but some people might not be considering them at all
Bulletproof Gastrodon is extremely niche and basically JUST for Gholdengo and Gengar. Same applies to Toxapex. Chansey, Blissey, and Umbreon are all also extremely niche. Unaware Clodsire runs into Psyshock. Iron Moth loses to Well-Baked Body. Bulletproof Rotom-Wash is a set I have genuinely NEVER seen brought up until now.
There’s a reason you don’t see these sets, and that’s opportunity cost. Sure, you could invest into a Bulletproof Water to beat Gholdengo, but then you’re far worse against so much else in the metagame. If you’re Bulletproof, you aren’t Regenerator or Vessel of Ruin or an immunity. Does this seem worth it or healthy? If you let Kyogre into AAA, you can just beat it with a Water Absorb Magnezone. However, this isn’t healthy, because Kyogre can force Water Absorb Magnezone into every single team. The same applies for Gholdengo, but to a lesser extent. If you need to put a Bulletproof Pokémon on a team just to check it(half the time you won’t even check it because it can PP stall you), it’s probably not a good thing.
I don't want to argue with you or be construed as rude, but I really don't think gastrodon is that much of a stretch for a balance team, you also counter iron moth which is very popular, rotom w as well, I will concede that the other options are more defensive and more niche, but I still think they should be considered if you're having trouble with gholdengo, of course unless it gets banned
There is a simple reason why you don’t see Gastrodon: it’s outclassed. Yes, it does a decent job at checking Iron Moth and Rotom Wash. However, there are other Pokémon that can do that but just better(see: Garchomp, Clodsire, Iron Moth). It does get hazards, but a lot of things can set hazards now, and it’s not particularly hard to clear them when the top 2 in the meta are both hazard clearers. Aside from this, what can Gastrodon do? I guess it checks Gholdengo, but even that’s shaky if it’s Earth Eater or Trick. Wait, if one of the best Gholdengo checks is shaky at best, why is it worth checking it at all? Why beat Gholdengo defensively in the first place? Why not just run hyper offense?
my answer would be if it's earth eater or trick, I know it isn't steel beam, and then my other mons like unaware umbreon or spedef great tusk can come in more easily now that the specs is gone, also, I don't know for certain that gastro would lose vs earth eater, I'd have to recheck the moveset, if it's earth eater then rotomw should beat it, and if it's well baked then gastro and great tusk with spedef beat it
mons like blissey, chansey, umbreon etc counter multiple mons, so I wouldn't say they are only there for gholdengo
if you're running offense then you should be able to fit rotomw on the team, has para support for timid ghold if you need it, rotomw has always had utility I think you'd be hardpressed to find a game where rotom wash can do nothing other than counter ghold
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