STAB STABmons

I have had some fun using this stabmons kingdra set and I want to see if others would too.

Kingdra
Ability: Sniper
Item: Leftovers/Scope Lens
Nature: Adamant/Jolly
Evs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute/ Focus Energy
- Surging Strikes
- Dragon Darts

Surging strikes crits with every hit and the ability sniper will boost every hit.
 

Dusk Mage Necrozma

formerly XenonHero126
I have had some fun using this stabmons kingdra set and I want to see if others would too.

Kingdra
Ability: Sniper
Item: Leftovers/Scope Lens
Nature: Adamant/Jolly
Evs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute/ Focus Energy
- Surging Strikes
- Dragon Darts

Surging strikes crits with every hit and the ability sniper will boost every hit.
Scope Lens and Focus Energy are moot when your main attack auto-crits: although Scope Lens helps with Dragon Darts, imo Life Orb gives better mileage. I do like the idea though. I personally run a banded set with Surging Strikes, DDarts, Flip Turn, and Iron Head Kingdra gets a very disappointing amount of coverage moves :(
 
Scope Lens and Focus Energy are moot when your main attack auto-crits: although Scope Lens helps with Dragon Darts, imo Life Orb gives better mileage. I do like the idea though. I personally run a banded set with Surging Strikes, DDarts, Flip Turn, and Iron Head Kingdra gets a very disappointing amount of coverage moves :(
Yeah I wasn't thinking about that at the time with the scope lens and focus energy when surging strikes already crits, kingdra is already kinda slow so maybe scarf instead of band. But yeah good idea. When I used kingdra like this I never ran focus energy or scope lens, I ran sub/leftovers but maybe you could run lum berry for any statuses instead of sub/leftovers and instead of using substitute you can replace it with another coverage move.
 
How would you guys go about making Eruption Heatran work consistently?

I've tried drought heat rock Blacepholon with Mind explosion and then sending in Chlorophyl Heatran. But I feel like Other weathers like Primordial Drizzle are very common ways to stop it. How would you guys go about making the idea work more consistently against enemy weather?
 

Ducky

Aw Phooey
is a Contributor to Smogon
How would you guys go about making Eruption Heatran work consistently?

I've tried drought heat rock Blacepholon with Mind explosion and then sending in Chlorophyl Heatran. But I feel like Other weathers like Primordial Drizzle are very common ways to stop it. How would you guys go about making the idea work more consistently against enemy weather?
I think you are talking about STAAABmons, which has its own thread here, or you can talk about it in the OMM Megathread, OMM Discord, or the OMM Room.
 
Here's some scrambled ramblings from me to supplement the new survey.

Reviewing potential issues

Final Gambit / No Retreat
:ss/urshifu-rapid-strike:

Probably the two biggest issues I can think of in STAB at the moment individually, but I'd particularly like to highlight the combination of using both at once, as I feel like these two get considerably more broken once you pair them with eachother. The ability to just completely get rid of a hard counter for an opponent as well as threaten a sweep by just using No Retreat makes this a particularly insane combination. Not only that, but Urshifu-R isn't even the only user of this tactic - I've tried it out with Keldeo and Kommo-o too, and I figure such a combination is also viable on Buzzwole as well.

As for individually, No Retreat can be seen as a way to just instantly seal an endgame without much hassle. Fissure has done it with Terrakion, I've done it with Buzzwole, FC has pulled off a similar thing with Keldeo, all of which have tended to near instantly end a game even with good revenge killing mechanisms. No Retreat simply makes a mon too bulky to really handle via conventional means, gives them a speed boost enough to outspeed most Choice Scarf users, and the lack of super-effective priority on Fighting-types makes them impossible to handle offensively - you must have a defensive answer to a No Retreat user, or you will lose the game near instantly. Answers to these exist, but outside of Toxapex there isn't really a global answer - and as I've mentioned before, the combination of No Retreat and Final Gambit together can be used to get rid of what few walls you have to a sweep.

Final Gambit is kinda awkward in a metagame with few Ghosts - they can make otherwise weak mons in balance matchups like Keldeo or Buzzwole instantly threatening if they are not needed as speed control. Though this does not necessarily make Final Gambit broken as a singular move, it does significantly increase the viability of many mons that would otherwise suffer with hard answers, like the aforementioned Urshifu-R. The simple potential to lure an important defensive mon with something like Buzzwole (or even Kommo-o, as I've toyed with a bit) is fairly unhealthy as is. As a side-note, it is also worth mentioning that Octolock is legal in STABmons, so the combination of Octolock + Final Gambit can perform a similar role to No Retreat + Final Gambit.

Aerodactyl
:ss/aerodactyl:
Aerodactyl isn't really that big of a deal to me. Not only is it vulnerable to chip damage in multiple forms, despite being able to dodge the main form of chip damage in recoil, it also isn't a CB Weavile-tier nuke that just 2HKOs everything that's in front of it. Adaptations such as increase in Mudsdale, Slowbro and Excadrill usage and the general formation of teams (Seismitoad + Tyranitar, RH Ferrothorn, King's Shield Heatran) all tend to signal that the metagame is moving away from Aerodactyl, and that teams are generally getting better prepared for its breaking antics, even if that is through Regen pivoting + RH half the time. Do try out Adamant LO DD on HO though, the speed of this thing is insane and as a breaker it's not even half bad.
Cinderace
:ss/cinderace:
It's become pretty evident throughout OMPL that Cinderace isn't really much of an issue, but given there were some early sparks about it, I'd still like to look into Cinderace, and why, like Aerodactyl, it is finding itself going out of the metagame. The general increase in Toxapex & Mudsdale usage means that Cinderace has to pick its moves a lot more carefully - for example, it often wants Fire Lash for Toxapex and co., but this is beaten by Mudsdale, and Sacred Fire tends to lose to Toxapex. Additionally, the increase in usage of King's Shield in general makes it a lot harder to use as a bulky offense breaker. Pretty good anti-offense mon outside of this though, still worth running

Underrated Pokemon

Heatran
:ss/heatran:
I stumbled upon this mon again during the later half of OMPL just by pure co-incidence. I remembered that a specific Heatran set I used to use (Magma Storm / Earth Power / Doom Desire / King's Shield) actually matched up very well now that Slowking and Rotom-Wash usage were down from the last few weeks, paired it up with an interesting Rotom-C set, and watched it absolutely decimate builds with a slower approach to them. King's Shield also made it so that Heatran was very difficult to approach offensively, as breakers like Aerodactyl, Cinderace and Tyranitar don't really want to attack into a King's Shield. Because of King's Shield + Doom Desire and the chip from Magma Storm, it's also very easy to put Doom Desire into a good position where it will be able to hit the opponent in a bad spot most of the time. In general, I think the synergy of Heatran + Tyranitar is actually REALLY powerful in the current metagame, and I expect to see Heatran rise pretty significantly over the next few weeks.

Later on, I started using Flame Body variants of this mon, and it turned out these were even better than the Flash Fire variants at punishing physical breakers who wanted to start smacking things right out of the gate. It also helps that Flame Body Heatran can punish Flip Turns, making the residual from Magma + King's Shield even more powerful. Further yet, dropping King's Shield for Taunt or Toxic can make some switchins hilariously easy to punish - in particular, Taunt allows Heatran to get past Teleport as an answer to its stallbreaking shenanigans, and often forces burns via Flame Body as its checks try to escape.

Latios
:ss/latios:

Scarf Latios is very good speed control at the moment. Lots of HOs just hate dealing with high power Dragon Energy lategame, and if not needed, Latios can still mess around with most balances just via Trick + Lunar Dance / HWish support. Occasionally you can use Specs, particularly if you're working with Doom Desire Heatran, but Scarf is the main reason Latios has started rising to prominence.
Mudsdale / Runerigus
:ss/mudsdale::ss/runerigus:

Both of these mons occupy the same slot, because they're pretty similar in how they both interact with the metagame, as defensive Ground-types that both have a particular niche in staving off certain offensive threats. Runerigus is excellent as it is capable of dealing with HO extremely well, making players second guess when they should be setting up, and often times being able to wall all 6 members of a HO due to its access to Spectral Thief. However, its matchup vs bulkier teams can leave more to be desired, outside of blocking Tornadus-T's U-turns. Mudsdale, on the other hand, is a lot better of a defensive threat against more common attackers like LO Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, Cinderace and Excadrill, and as such has seen a greater amount of usage. Additionally, Mudsdale is excellent at setting Spikes, being able to stall out common removal like Tornadus-Therian, and dissuade certain removal like Sylveon.
Zeraora
:ss/zeraora:
Zeraora is a very potent form of speed control in this metagame. At least on par with Aerodactyl, better than Cinderace, and has a considerably better matchup as a revenge killer. Even just going with the standard Bulk Up variant, it's pretty easy to batter yourself through common pivots like Seismitoad, Buzzwole and Ferrothorn, and this is a mon that's capable of doing that nearly every game with how easy it is to get in on even something as scary as Tyranitar. The extra power provided by Bolt Strike is also amazing to get past some annoying fatmons like Clefable who pretend to answer the mon, even if it comes at the cost of some reliability. If deemed necessary, Zeraora is also capable of throwing on techs like Grass Knot or Toxic on the final slot, making many of the decent answers to Zeraora like Hippowdon and Mudsdale play a very dangerous pivot game. That being said, there are some niche mons that Zeraora really just can't touch, like Runerigus and Nidoking - so unlike other strong speed control mons like Cinderace and Aerodactyl, this is more of a mon that just takes advantage of the metagame state, rather that being something that has all of its strong elements independent to itself.

Recently, I've been messing around with CB Toxic Zeraora, and in part due to the Mudsdale rise, I've been finding it a highly effective variant right now. Whilst it doesn't exactly beat Mudsdale and Runerigus, it chips them significantly more if you're able to get the right moves off, and is capable of 2HKOing even the bulkiest Buzzwole after Stealth Rock.

Team Structures

Heatran + Rotom-C Double Trap Bulky Offense (Sample submission)
https://pokepast.es/1496d7d940ee29f1

The goal of this build is to use both Heatran and Rotom-C to force defensive builds into bad positions, which Buzzwole can easily capitalize on. As Heatran's answers tend to be bulky waters in the current metagame, Rotom-C ends up taking advantage of the chip damage that is caused by Doom Desire and Magma Storm to its own advantage by switching into these waters and trapping things itself.
(Alternates: Lati > Rotom-C)
 

in the hills

spreading confusion
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Thanks everyone for the survey responses! Here's the results below:
1656783261709.png

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TL;DR of the results
-Metagame was rated a 7.35/10, with over half of the recipients rating it an 8 or higher. This is a bit lower than expected from conversations had throughout OMPL, but the rise in Final Gambit may have played a part in this result.
-Final Gambit rated 2.05/5 on the healthiness scale, with 47.1% of participants thinking it is fine in the metagame and 88.2% supporting immediate action.
-No Retreat rated 2.47/5 on the healthiness scale, with 58.8% of participants thinking it is fine in the metagame and 64.7% supporting immediate action.
-Aerodactyl rated 3.26/5 on the healthiness scale
-Toxapex rated 3.41/5 on the healthiness scale
-Other calls of action were Precipice Blades, Landorus-Therian, and Tapu Koko unbans and an Excadrill ban

Overall the results are about as expected, the combination of Final Gambit and No Retreat has been very dominant lately and people would like to see action taken on it, while support for action against Toxapex and Aerodactyl are more scattered. It's of note that while Final Gambit and No Retreat did have strong support, the support for a Final Gambit ban was almost universal and received no argument on the opposing side. No Retreat on the other hand did have arguments both ways and had more mixed support. Considering all of the arguments, the council voted on both Final Gambit and No Retreat, while deciding to hold off any decision on Aerodactyl and Toxapex until more of a consensus could be made.
Votes:
BylethFcin the hillsLBDCpannuRESULT
Final GambitRESTRICTRESTRICTRESTRICTABSRESTRICTRESTRICT (4-0-1)
No RetreatDNRDNRABSDNRDNRDNR (0-4-1)
First off, as you can see we have two new voters here. I'd like to take a moment to welcome LBDC and pannuracotta to the council! Excited to have you both on board.
Regarding the results, we agree at the time we'd like to hold off on No Retreat until we can better assess its impact in a Gambit-less metagame. There is some agreement amongst the council in some of the points made about No Retreat, namely the potential to sweep in the right matchup and the added constriction in having to decipher what set you are facing when considering No Retreat, but we feel that these aspects can better be assessed now that fighting type checks are no longer severely restricted by the threat of Final Gambit. We will hold another vote on No Retreat in a week or two to decide its fate in the new meta.
So with that, Final Gambit has been restricted from STABmons! Tagging Kris to implement.

Would also like to thank everyone for the support lately and am very happy to see the ladder more active and more people interested in the tier! Let's keep it up!
 
Accelgor @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Toxic Spikes
- Spikes/Bug Buzz
- Final Gambit

I've been using this set lately and it surprised me that it was actually kinda good.It can set up hazard while block Defog and Rapid Spin with Final Gambit possibly kill one of the opponent pokemon.Accelgor doesn't have Stealth Rock and The fastest pokemon learn Rapid Spin and wasn't helping Accelgor plus it can only fit on a HO team but i think it's a fine pokemon.
 
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pannu

THE GONG OF KNOCKOUT
is a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
hi all! with my ssnl run over i wanted to discuss some meta takes and cool starts / sets i tried out. ngl i mostly reused from ompl but the few teams i did build were cool IMO! I wont be going into super much detail abt specific mons, unless i wanted to talk about specific techs or other interesting aspects of a set, as i wanna write a VR nom post sometime soon.

:ss/pelipper: Rain :ss/barraskewda:

For the earlier rounds i wanted something to catch less experienced players off-guard, and also something that can beat HO and bulkier teams with relative ease, and so the idea of Rain teams came to me. Now, while i did at first think that rain sounded god awful in a toxapex/seismitoad heavy meta, i ran some tests and it ended up working out quite well, i think the team was 3-1 for me when i ended up bringing it to the tour. Here is the team i used.

Theres a few minor things that STAB-rain benefits from, Ferrothorn having reliable recovery outside of Leech Seed and Thundurus-T being able to run Hurricane come to mind, However the main thing that makes Rain a playstyle worth using in STAB is the insane amount of powerful water-type moves available. A staple of SS rain is Barraskewda, which insane Speed-tier and hard-hitting Water-type STAB makes it a menace against offense teams. Surging Strikes is an INSANE upgrade compared to Waterfall, alot of Pokemon that barely live a rain boosted Waterfall just drop to Surging Strikes. Keldeo with Water Spout is also an insanely powerful nuke in the rain, and Water Shuriken is a nice priority move, which i was using on Pelipper and Keldeo.

Heres a few replays to help show off my point

Vs. Career Ended for R4 winners. Im facing a HO team, normally this would be incredibly threatening but Barraskewda just dismantles his team with relative ease, frankly i think its impossible to build an offense team that doesnt lose to Barraskewda.

Vs. Abriel for R7 losers. A good game for showing how truly insane the breakers on Rain are, Keldeo forces a KO whenever it comes in, and Barraskewda is able to KO a buzzwole, only requiring minimal chip.

Vs. Andy for R8 Losers. Seismitoad, Zeraora, AV Slowking, and Zarude. An incredibly scary MU for rain which, on paper, looks near unwinnable, However, some aggressive reads lets me win this difficult MU, showing that most MU's are outplayable.

I'm sure there's other breakers you can run on rain, i personally haven't tried any however. Ludicolo, Crawdaunt, and Mantine all seem passable.

:ss/clefable:

Why do we run Glare on CM Clef in this tier? That set honestly seems like massive cope to me. Like, i get it, you can spread para and reliably and Glare Excadrill on the switch in, but Mono Moonblast seems incredibly passive, especially with AV / Haze pex being so common. CM LO With Thunder is the set I've been using, its really good, especially in the current meta, where all our Steels either cannot hurt Clefable, or Get worn down incredibly quickly by repeated Moonblasts. Shore up Excadrill is still an issue as you cant beat it, but teammates that handle it like CG Ferro or Mudsdale are good teammates with CM Clefable Eitherway. I think that Rapid Spin/Stealth Rock + Calm Mind is still good FWIW, wanting to pressure entry hazard setters / removers is a reasonable thing, but Glare on CM is terrible, please dont run it.

Here's 2 Teams I've been using with CMLO clef:
Cinderace + CG ferro VoltTurn Balance
CB Aerodactyl Semistall

:ss/seismitoad:
Seismitoad @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Water Absorb
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 Spe
Impish Nature
- Thousand Waves / Toxic
- Shore Up
- Flip Turn
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
Speed investment on Seis is an interesting thing i played around with, notably i used this on a team which was very weak to CB / Offtar, being able to outspeed and heal up on Tyranitar is an incredibly valuable thing if you can afford to drop all that bulk. This Team would be a good example of that, where Blissey / Steelix form a defensive core which would allow seis to drop alot of bulk. Another interesting thing on this team is...

:ss/kyurem:

...Triple Axel Kyurem! I think this was a set i got while balling ideas with lydia? idunno. The main concept is that Triple Axel does more damage to Blissey, letting you 2HKO it. Ice Beam is a move I find myself never really clicking either way, so running this isnt a massive opportunity cost. Aside from the previously posted team, this is another TripAx Kyu team I've been enjoying.

:ss/melmetal:

Really random thing but i think that Melmetal has potential to be a very threatening mon in the tier, and its definitely underrated. ToxTect is the main set I've been using, and its really good IMO. Being able to force chip onto Seis and other physically defensive staples is very good for teammates like Cinderace or Torn-T. Its Defensive utility is also pretty cool being able to stomach a hit and in return KO a lot of relevant offensive threats in the tier. Heres a Melm team i used in SSNL which i think shows off what it can do pretty well.

:ss/ferrothorn: Spikes Balance :ss/clefable:
Another one im gonna keep quick, cause its kinda vague, but i think that Spikes Balance is an incredible archetype in the current meta, there's really few viable Ghost-types in the tier, which means that nearly nothing stops Clefable, Excadrill, or Blissey from Rapid Spinning. This basically means that you should be able to keep your hazards up while denying your opponent theirs, which Entry Hazard weak breakers that themselves appreciate Entry Hazards being up, like Kyurem, Keldeo, and CB Weavile greatly appreciate. This is something ill definitely try to explore more in the future

Heres a few other teams i wanted to dump but couldn't fit a good way to put into the post:

https://pokepast.es/a0bcd77262b0b0e0 DemonMew + Aromatherapy beats every Dark- and Steel-type in the Tier, bar flinches. Seems like a powerful wincon with Aromatherapy support.

https://pokepast.es/37dcf16fd6fc8af2 A team i never got to bring but NPglowking seems fun in te tier, CG ferro is an incredible wincon to pair it up with.

https://pokepast.es/4247b5dc9802cdc9 Double LO + BU zera. Honestly a mostly standard team but i do think that Spikes on OffTar being able to wear-down Its own, Reuniclus, and Zeraoras checks makes this team kinda annoying to deal with. Also in theory Drain Punch Zeraora beats Twave Flip Turn Seis 1v1

im out, see y'all in OMWC!
 

in the hills

spreading confusion
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Giagantic

True Coffee Maniac
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
OM Leader
Here is a team for you all (I don't normally post): https://pokepast.es/ef4a8721f14024bf

Tyranitar @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Body Press
- Sucker Punch
- Shore Up

Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Thousand Waves
- Swords Dance
- Rapid Spin

Buzzwole @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Body Press
- First Impression
- Roost

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare
- Eruption
- Earth Power
- Flash Cannon

Latios (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Clanging Scales
- Psystrike
- Mystical Fire
- Aura Sphere

Seismitoad @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
Careful Nature
- Flip Turn
- Thousand Waves
- Toxic
- Shore Up

Goal is to break down teams with smart switches and getting Latios and Heatran in to achieve this, pivoting with the defensive Buzzwole and Seismatoad and finally sweeping with Excadrill. There are multiple different changes you can make to mix up the team which include changing the scarf Heatran to specs or running Fiery Dance + Scarf, running Scarf Latios instead of specs and so forth but the team should handle most threats regardless. You can add Stealth Rocks to Seismitoad's set if you want but I generally find it best to just keep up the pressure without taking the time to set them up, Thousand Waves + Toxic is great for beating incoming Seismitoad's and Flip-Turn helps keep up momentum.
 

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