Metagame STABmons

[Whitephoenixace]

so if I get reqs after at about 1-2 am est on May 1st (ladder shouldn't be gone by then) will my vote still matter if I post around that time ?

 

[drampa's grandpa]

Ayyy abusing this to have reqs earlier than I would.

reqs

shoutouts to whitephoenixace2 for leaving a match

I honestly didn't find games that hard to find, despite what other people have been saying. They take a couple minutes usually but not like ten or w/e, so it's not hard to get a good number of games in in a row.

Anyway. About espeed.

I'm having a really tough time deciding on this one tbh. I think I'm going to wait and play a bit more without being trying to get reqs before I vote.
Although this meta really shouldn't sway me either way.

Thoughts on the meta

This goes in a hide because it's not really relevant to how I voted will vote. Also I typed it first cuz it was the fun part.

Birds (or genies or giant dragonflies) are incredibly strong in this metagame. Thundurus, Aerodatyl, and possibly Pidgeot strike me as potentially banworthy.

Thundurus has 0 reliable switchins between AoA sets, Z-Focus Blast, and Taunt, and it is much more difficult to revenge without espeed. I've heard someone say that Oblivion Wing is the real problem here and I suppose that is possible. This would also nerf the sudden insurgence of Yanmega. However it wouldnt do anything about AoA sets which are, imo, nearly as strong, although not nearly as popular, and honestly I'm not sure it would change much besides it being easier to chip.

Aerodactyl has an absurd speed tier and amazing power and coverage. It has switchins (King's Shield Steela, Hippowdon / Zygarde) but they are extremely limited and counterplay to it is really difficult, as most things rely on revenge killing it or heavy prediction, and Aero usually plays as a revenge killer / wallbreaker which often pairs with slow pivoting to bring it in safetly. This was broken before espeed went away.

Pidgeot is annoying af. IMHO this is the best set:

Pidgeot-Mega @ Pidgeotite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sing
- Boomburst / Hurricane
- U-turn
- Heat Wave

Running Dual STAB is kinda pointless, you don't actually hit much you wouldn't anyway. Boomburst has more power, hits through subs, and can hit Thundurus and Rotom, while Hurricane has confusehax, hits Ghosts (fuk u Chandelure), and has overall better super-effective coverage (AKA any). Sing + U-Turn is a deadly combo. You sing their check as they switch in then U-Turn out to something like Terrakion which can pressure common Pidg switchins and force them out, giving you free damage and momentum. The best part is if you keep U-Turning every time they bring in that Pidg check they don't get to recover, and eventually it will be weak enough for Pidg or another Pokemon to KO (is that how voltturn cores work? Yes, yes it is) but at the same time they can't burn sleep turns because you keep forcing them out with your wallbreaker of choice. I ran Pidg/Terrak/Yanmega and although the rest of the team was p bad that core rocked at chipping Ttar and Chansey for Yanmega sweeps.

Yanmega might not broken, but it's an incredibly effective sweeper post-espeed. Fortunately the omnipresent Tyranitar managed to stop it pretty reliably when i was running it early in my run (sand = no sash). The fact that it pretty much demands an Accelerock user (+6 252+ SpA Yanmega Oblivion Wing vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 336-396 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO) and isn't really possible to outspeed makes it verge on broken, but I've found that preventing it from setting up can be sufficient. Shoutout volcanionisgood for hyping Yanmega and turning me onto it.

NON-BIRDS!

Literally every espeeder except Lopunny seems awful now, but Lopunny is still really fking good. 135 speed is insane, it resists the common Accelerock and doesn't need to worry about Fake Out nearly as much. Also people are less over-prepared for Normal types.

Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Head Charge / Return
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Punch / Quick Attack / Encore

I'm going to vote BAN on Extreme Speed.

While it leaving has pretty clearly left the meta in turmoil, I think ultimately Extreme Speed is too overcentralizing and broken of a move to allow in the meta, and its users too diverse and lacking in universal checks to be easily dealt with without putting undue strain on teambuilding. This will pretty clearly lead to a couple of other bans; Thundy / Owing and Aerodactyl are pretty clearly problematic imho and Pidgeot-Mega is much more annoying in a post-espeed world, but avoiding a ban just because it keeps other things from being broken is bad tiering.

I've already given my views on why espeed is problematic, see:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3587949/page-25#post-7718876
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3587949/page-25#post-7719906
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3587949/page-25#post-7739947

basically the top half of page 25 lel. I was pushing a bit harder than I probably should have there but the points stand (I hope, I only skimmed them just now :3)

I really wish people would give more of their thoughts when they post their reqs; this is a really important suspect, and it's not clear-cut at all. There has been no significant anti-ban argument and it really bothers me to ban (or not ban) something like espeed without good argument from both. sides.

 

[Mark K]

It appears I was able to abuse espeed to reqs through the daily.
Well, my experience with a post-espeed meta is very limited, so I took the liberty to read through the last couple pages to try and understand motivations behind both sides, and well I agree with dramps.
Espeed isn't broken, it has checks and counters, however they are too centralizing. I went back on my teambuilder and realized my only 2 original teams fit the archetype drampa specified perfectly. It isn't the only valid way to build obviously, other bulkier types can be very successful, but in essence, extreme speed is centralizing to an unhealthy degree and thus I will be voting ban.
Plus, the idea of playing and building STABmons without espeed sounds really fun and will be a refreshing restart while chaos dissipates.

 

[Tornadus-Therian]

I've collected all the votes for the suspect, and the results were a striking 6-0 ban. Voters were myself, drampa, fissure, mark k, light dn, and lagrossemerd. Two of the votes were collected in PMs, which I'll post if proof is needed. Therefore, Extreme Speed will now be banned in STABmons. If you want to know more about why, please refer to most of the posts for the last few pages in this thread.

My plans for the next month of laddering are to look into Aerodactyl and Thundurus-I, since they're both extremely oppressive to bulky teams without sacrificing any usefulness in offensive matchups. I'm also going to work on revamping the resources, since they're outdated by default now. I've rewritten a lot of the sample set google doc already, so the focus will be on getting the VR and sample teams up to speed. As usual, any help is welcome in those areas.

 

[Iynhe]

Well, rip my Snorlax B-Drum + Espeed team.
I really hope this will be a great meta.

 

[drampa's grandpa]

Viability noms! A lot of them! Note that these are in alphabetical order within their tiers.

Drampa Rank (The best Pokemon in the metagame)

You know what's here

Drampa (literally unbeatable)

S

Celesteela A+ --> S / A+ (Amazing defensive mon in the current meta, with some relatively less potent but still good offensive sets. Likely A+)

Thundurus-Incarnate A+ --> S (What are walls? What are stalls? What are still being good against offense? What are having 2 amazing sets that themselves have variations with different checks and counters?)

A+

A+

Aerodactyl A- --> A+ (absurd speed tier combined with high powered moves and few actual counters)

Greninja-Ash A+ --> A+ (Got better, but still not nearly S worthy. Still fucked by Chansey. Honestly I'm not sure if it was A+ worthy pre-ban, but post-ban on rain teams it is terrifying, and ofc fits well on non-rain teams as well. I mention it because it's viability has fluctuated a bit recently.)

Landorus-Therian S --> A+ (While still very good doesn't have the ubiquitous utility it used to, and relies too heavily on Intimidate for bulk making it set-up bait for some mons including Zygarde (unless HP Ice). Also fuck Thundy.)

Terrakion A- --> A / A+ (Absolutely terrifying to switch into without a dedicated wall, and a valuable strong priority user post-espeed, especially with all the birds. Loves the relatively lower viability of Lando-T.)

Tyranitar A --> A+ (STOP CALLING ME OVER-RATED. Amazing revenge killer, Pursuit trapper, bird-spam check, and bulkymon. Suffers from poor defensive typing and slow speed.)

A

Lopunny-Mega A+ --> A / A-(While it lost the ability to push past other priority it's still absurdly fast with perfect neutral coverage on its stabs (what's a Shedinja). I've said all along that Swords Dance buffed this mon more than Espeed, and I think that this meta has proved me right. It is a nice check for some very strong mons rn, including non-Scarf Terrakion (non-band with pre-mega rocks damage 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 206-246 (76 - 90.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) and Tyranitar, but hates all the Yanmega.

Pidgeot-Mega A- --> A / A+ (Reliable sleep is much rarer now, and no FakeSpeed is great for Pidg. Possibly A+)

Yanmega B+ --> A (very threatening sweeper rn, very sr weak, hates all the accelerock, sometimes has trouble setting up without good prediction)

A-

Buzzwole B --> A- (Amazingly bulky physical wall, a staple on stall, good pivot with decent offensive presence, one of the few Zyg counters, why was this ever in B. Weakness to Flying, Fire, and anything special makes it not worthy of higher than A-.)

Ferrothorn A+ --> A- (Strength Sap is pretty meh, with Chansey / Sableye-Mega basically stopping it from healing at all. Hazard removal is really easy. Punishing contact and being bulky with good typing are still good niches but imo not A+ or even A worthy)

Tapu Fini A- --> A- / A (Still a great bulkymon, still hampered by Moonlight being not so great, but now being an unsleepable Pidg counter is very relevant. Idk whether it should move or not.)

B+

Altaria-Mega A- --> B+ / B (Losing espeed really hurt, but it's still a decent wallbreaker.)

Beedrill-Mega B- --> B+ (The fact that it outspeeds the viable unboosted meta besides Mega Zam, Accelgor, and Mega Sceptile (the latter two of which it ties and are barely viable anyway) is more relevant than ever. It also is one of the few Pokemon that still has strong priority in First Impression.

B

Serperior B+ --> B / B- (Gonna be up front: I haven't used this recently. But it lost Spore and birds are everywhere and two of them even carry sound moves to go through its subs.)

B-

Accelgor UR --> B- / C+(The best in webs leads)

Ninjask UR --> B- / C+ (Also the best in webs leads)

C

Aron UR --> C (Surprisingly not complete ass with FEAR.)

Unranked

Bewear
Diggersby
Snorlax
Ursaring

Things that got their viability 100% from espeed. Lax and Bewear might maintain some marginal viability but I think until we see that they should be taken off.

Edit: unranking former espeeders seems to be getting pushback so what In would like to ask is: where do you guys see each of them? They're certainly way worse than before (although imo ursaring was too low before).

 

[Jajoken]

I haven't logged in since the site redesign, but I will not stand this INJUSTICE. I will not be SILENT.

Defensive Bewear, with Recover/Circle Throw/Toxic/filler, is the ONLY switch-in to Tyranitar in the game and is BETTER than some lame-ass offensive Extreme Speed sweeper. If it is unranked because of the Espeed ban I will PERSONALLY break into ihhca's house and reprogram his teddy bear to pummel him in his sleep.

:angery:

(Also, I'd be interested to test out Fake Out + Quick Attack on Pokemon that relied on Fakespeed. It's a 1/3 drop in power but that's still the strength of one Espeed. I wouldn't throw out all the old Normal types quite yet)

 

[Seraph's Fire]

I do have to absolutely disagree with unranking all of the old espeed users; diggersby in particular still hits like a truck on its own, and snorlax can still be a very effective late game cleaner with a belly drum + quick attack set once certain mons have been removed. I've never used Bewear so I can't speak either way on it, but on paper it seems like it can be still be a useful tank.

A lot of their sets may be gone and they certainly deserve to drop, but not to be unranked. I'm actually interested to see if a Z-Sketch (which is a +1 all stats z-move) Diggersby set could be effective. Its speed isn't bad at all at +1 (outspeeds everything except accelgor, which is only relevant to set sticky webs, and mega-alakazam) and its bulk isn't awful at +1 either.

My personal favorite fakespeeder, Braviary, is probably dead though. I used it for Defiant and powerful flying STAB (+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Braviary Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 313-370 (81.9 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), but without extreme speed I can't see it being worth running.

Anyway, my stances on some of Drampa's other noms:

Celesteela and Thundurus-I: Definitely agree; I think that Cele's rise is long overdue, and Thundurus adores a FakeSpeed free meta.

Landorus-Therian: Not sold either way on this one. I'm inclined to say that it should stay in S, however; you have to remember that Lando-T can run a lot more than just its bog standard defensive set: It can still run Double Dance, SD, RP, CB, scarf, et cetera. It still has every trait that makes it good in standard with the addition of reliable recovery, the ability to burn contact attackers, and powerful flying STAB.

Lopunny-Mega: I have to disagree here; Lopunny-Mega actually receives a net buff, in my opinion, with the loss of espeed; before, it either ran espeed itself or lost to it, but now its stellar speed is even more effective (especially since it resists both accelerock and sucker punch) and it can run Head Charge as its normal STAB, which is a huge damage upgrade from espeed. I'm still not sure it's worthy of S, but it definitely shouldn't fall below A+.

Pidgeot-Mega: Definitely deserves A+; playing against it has always been a gamble due to its reliable sleep and high power STABs, and it lost most of its offensive checks with the espeed ban. I actually feel the mega pigeon is rather restricting to teambuild for and play against, but I'm far from sold that it's broken or uncompetitive.

Here's a few noms I had in mind:

Camerupt-Mega: Unranked > B/B-
Dents every switch in except Chansey heavily with Blue Flare + Earth Power + HP Ice. In particular, can switch into anything defensive Celesteela can do (0 SpA Celesteela Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 88-105 (25.5 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO) and force it out. Even defensive rotom-w is 2HKO'd by Blue Flare, meaning that it's hardly a safe switch in. Basically every offensive mon on the viability ranking (with one or two exceptions, like araquanid) takes minimum 50% from one of camerupt's moves, and most of them are OHKO'd outright. It also gets Shore Up for its last move slot, letting it keep itself healthy on forced switches. It's not stellar because it's so painfully slow and 4x weak to water, but it's a terror offensively and simply eats teams if TR is on the field.

Hide

Camerupt @ Cameruptite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spd
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Shore Up

Chandelure: Unranked > B/B+
How was this not ranked already? Chandelure has been a premier scarfer in STABmons since its debut; blue flare and moongeist beam both hit hard off of 145 special attack and have great coverage, complemented by something like HP Ice or Energy Ball, and it can run utility options in its last slot such as Trick to cripple Chansey and Destiny Bond to take out an offensive mon that it can't outright KO in a pinch. Its immunity to Normal isn't as valuable without espeed around (especially since Mega-Lopunny has Scrappy), but Chandelure is still very solid overall.

Hide

Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare
- Moongeist Beam
- Energy Ball / Hidden Power Ice
- Destiny Bond / Trick / Memento

Mega-Heracross: Unranked >B-/B
Mega Heracross doesn't gain a whole lot from STABmons, but it can fulfill the same roles as it does in standard; it hits hard with its high power STABs and a sky high attack stat, and it can either run Swords Dance to break down walls or Heal Order to take advantage of its good physical bulk.

Hide

Heracross @ Heracronite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pin Missile
- High Jump Kick / Drain Punch
- Rock Blast
- Swords Dance / Heal Order

Roserade: Unranked > B-/B
Roserade is a seriously underrated offensive mon; it's basically the only viable non-mega user of Seed Flare (and Mega-Venusaur doesn't even run it all of the time), which is a stellar move. One could argue that Shaymin gives it some competition, but Shaymin lacks dual STAB, has less power, and can't run Technician HP Fire for a pseudo-flamethrower like Roserade can. My favorite set that I've run is a Grassium Z set that outspeeds and OHKOs defensive Lando-T with Bloom Doom and chunks a lot of other mons (such as having a decent chance to KO Toxapex with BD + Seed Flare, OHKOing Tyranitar-Mega, OHKOing Zygarde after Stealth Rock, et cetera). It suffers from being walled by Celesteela and Heatran, but can break through several other steels such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory with its fire coverage. Additionally, it can chip physical attackers with Spiky Shield or set Spikes/TSpikes.

Hide

Roserade @ Grassium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Spiky Shield / Spikes / Toxic Spikes

 

[G-Luke]

Spore: For the ESpeed suspect test ladder I've played 40 games atm (here's a screenshot of the alt I used) and I never really had a problem with Spore. You have good grass types like Tapu Bulu, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur to absorb them, status "absorbers" like Chansey and Misty Terrain to work with it. Heck, the Rotom I have on my team doesn't even have Spore. I think it should neither be banned nor suspected because it's not that broken.

This right here bought me to tears

 

[drampa's grandpa]

I do have to absolutely disagree with unranking all of the old espeed users; diggersby in particular still hits like a truck on its own, and snorlax can still be a very effective late game cleaner with a belly drum + quick attack set once certain mons have been removed. I've never used Bewear so I can't speak either way on it, but on paper it seems like it can be still be a useful tank.

A lot of their sets may be gone and they certainly deserve to drop, but not to be unranked. I'm actually interested to see if a Z-Sketch (which is a +1 all stats z-move) Diggersby set could be effective. Its speed isn't bad at all at +1 (outspeeds everything except accelgor, which is only relevant to set sticky webs, and mega-alakazam) and its bulk isn't awful at +1 either.

My personal favorite fakespeeder, Braviary, is probably dead though. I used it for Defiant and powerful flying STAB (+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Braviary Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 313-370 (81.9 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), but without extreme speed I can't see it being worth running.

Anyway, my stances on some of Drampa's other noms:

Celesteela and Thundurus-I: Definitely agree; I think that Cele's rise is long overdue, and Thundurus adores a FakeSpeed free meta.

Landorus-Therian: Not sold either way on this one. I'm inclined to say that it should stay in S, however; you have to remember that Lando-T can run a lot more than just its bog standard defensive set: It can still run Double Dance, SD, RP, CB, scarf, et cetera. It still has every trait that makes it good in standard with the addition of reliable recovery, the ability to burn contact attackers, and powerful flying STAB.

Lopunny-Mega: I have to disagree here; Lopunny-Mega actually receives a net buff, in my opinion, with the loss of espeed; before, it either ran espeed itself or lost to it, but now its stellar speed is even more effective (especially since it resists both accelerock and sucker punch) and it can run Head Charge as its normal STAB, which is a huge damage upgrade from espeed. I'm still not sure it's worthy of S, but it definitely shouldn't fall below A+.

Pidgeot-Mega: Definitely deserves A+; playing against it has always been a gamble due to its reliable sleep and high power STABs, and it lost most of its offensive checks with the espeed ban. I actually feel the mega pigeon is rather restricting to teambuild for and play against, but I'm far from sold that it's broken or uncompetitive.

Here's a few noms I had in mind:

Camerupt-Mega: Unranked > B/B-
Dents every switch in except Chansey heavily with Blue Flare + Earth Power + HP Ice. In particular, can switch into anything defensive Celesteela can do (0 SpA Celesteela Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt-Mega: 88-105 (25.5 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO) and force it out. Even defensive rotom-w is 2HKO'd by Blue Flare, meaning that it's hardly a safe switch in. Basically every offensive mon on the viability ranking (with one or two exceptions, like araquanid) takes minimum 50% from one of camerupt's moves, and most of them are OHKO'd outright. It also gets Shore Up for its last move slot, letting it keep itself healthy on forced switches. It's not stellar because it's so painfully slow and 4x weak to water, but it's a terror offensively and simply eats teams if TR is on the field.

Hide

Camerupt @ Cameruptite
Ability: Solid Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spd
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Shore Up

Chandelure: Unranked > B/B+
How was this not ranked already? Chandelure has been a premier scarfer in STABmons since its debut; blue flare and moongeist beam both hit hard off of 145 special attack and have great coverage, complemented by something like HP Ice or Energy Ball, and it can run utility options in its last slot such as Trick to cripple Chansey and Destiny Bond to take out an offensive mon that it can't outright KO in a pinch. Its immunity to Normal isn't as valuable without espeed around (especially since Mega-Lopunny has Scrappy), but Chandelure is still very solid overall.

Hide

Chandelure @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blue Flare
- Moongeist Beam
- Energy Ball / Hidden Power Ice
- Destiny Bond / Trick / Memento

Mega-Heracross: Unranked >B-/B
Mega Heracross doesn't gain a whole lot from STABmons, but it can fulfill the same roles as it does in standard; it hits hard with its high power STABs and a sky high attack stat, and it can either run Swords Dance to break down walls or Heal Order to take advantage of its good physical bulk.

Hide

Heracross @ Heracronite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Pin Missile
- High Jump Kick / Drain Punch
- Rock Blast
- Swords Dance / Heal Order

Roserade: Unranked > B-/B
Roserade is a seriously underrated offensive mon; it's basically the only viable non-mega user of Seed Flare (and Mega-Venusaur doesn't even run it all of the time), which is a stellar move. One could argue that Shaymin gives it some competition, but Shaymin lacks dual STAB, has less power, and can't run Technician HP Fire for a pseudo-flamethrower like Roserade can. My favorite set that I've run is a Grassium Z set that outspeeds and OHKOs defensive Lando-T with Bloom Doom and chunks a lot of other mons (such as having a decent chance to KO Toxapex with BD + Seed Flare, OHKOing Tyranitar-Mega, OHKOing Zygarde after Stealth Rock, et cetera). It suffers from being walled by Celesteela and Heatran, but can break through several other steels such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory with its fire coverage. Additionally, it can chip physical attackers with Spiky Shield or set Spikes/TSpikes.

Hide

Roserade @ Grassium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Spiky Shield / Spikes / Toxic Spikes

Just a couple comments

Landorus-Therian: Not sold either way on this one. I'm inclined to say that it should stay in S, however; you have to remember that Lando-T can run a lot more than just its bog standard defensive set: It can still run Double Dance, SD, RP, CB, scarf, et cetera. It still has every trait that makes it good in standard with the addition of reliable recovery, the ability to burn contact attackers, and powerful flying STAB.

I find that offensive Lando-T isn't amazing. It's not a bad mon, but I don't think those sets deserve to be held up next to its bulky one. The only one I ever find worrisome in the slightest is Scarf, and it's very reliant on its dual stab for all offensive sets which means Pokemon like Rotom and Steela come in on it very easily, while things like Thundy (which is not something u want to be giving free switch-ins to) can offensively abuse Lando-T.

Chandelure should certainly be ranked. I think B or B- would work. It hates Ttar so much though it's not even funny.

I haven't used those other mons but it would help a lot if you got some replays of you playing solid teams with them so we can see what they do. Keep in mind that birds are omnipresent right now and both Rose and Cross get eaten by birdspam.

Also that mcross set looks a little janky so here are a couple I built based on pure theorymon.

SD Sweeper that wants more moves

Heracross-Mega @ Heracronite
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Mach Punch
- Close Combat / Pin Missile
- Rock Blast / Pin Missile

Bulky Offensive Pivot

Heracross-Mega @ Heracronite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature / Brave Nature
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- First Impression / Mach Punch
- Rock Blast

Buzzwole but bad

Heracross-Mega @ Heracronite
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Heal Order
- U-turn
- Circle Throw
- Knock Off / Toxic / Counter

Virginia gave me sass for this one.

Two totally legit sets

Heracross-Mega @ Heracronite
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Heal Order
- Secret Sword
- Bug Buzz

Heracross-Mega @ Heracronite
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Vacuum Wave
- Bug Buzz
- Secret Sword

Honestly in most cases cross is hard to justify using over Buzzwole, a much better mon, and Heracross is just too slow to effectively pull off the SD sets that are its best bets at standing out.

 

[Tornadus-Therian]

I haven't logged in since the site redesign, but I will not stand this INJUSTICE. I will not be SILENT.

Defensive Bewear, with Recover/Circle Throw/Toxic/filler, is the ONLY switch-in to Tyranitar in the game and is BETTER than some lame-ass offensive Extreme Speed sweeper. If it is unranked because of the Espeed ban I will PERSONALLY break into ihhca's house and reprogram his teddy bear to pummel him in his sleep.

:angery:

(Also, I'd be interested to test out Fake Out + Quick Attack on Pokemon that relied on Fakespeed. It's a 1/3 drop in power but that's still the strength of one Espeed. I wouldn't throw out all the old Normal types quite yet)

I've actually used this a set similar to this early in the gen, and it was pretty bad. I think I used Milk Drink/Circle Throw/Ice Punch/Extreme Speed. Solidly half the physical mons in the meta either hit Normal/Fighting super effectively or don't care about Fluffy. Even with Fluffy, it wasn't bulky enough to justify over Buzz or Lando, which both have better typing. I found Furfrou to be more consistent, if a bit more passive. If you really want these mons in C with like Mudsdale, then I'll consider it.

I've read through the VR changes and moved some things around. Has anyone actually used Mega Heracross? I'm happy to rank it if I can see some replays to justify its place, but I'm not going to VR a theorymon.

First pass VR changes:

Celesteela A+ --> S

Thundurus-Incarnate A+ --> S

View attachment 115010 Aerodactyl A- --> A+

Pidgeot-Mega A- --> A+

Ferrothorn A+ --> A

Terrakion A- --> A

Swampert-Mega B+ --> A-

Tangrowth A --> A-

Yanmega B+ --> A-

Beedrill-Mega B- --> B

Chandelure ur --> B

Kabutops ur --> C+

Accelgor ur --> C+

Diggersby, Ursaring, Bewear, Snorlax --> ur

With espeed gone, I definitely expect to see more Hawlucha and Volcarona. I don't know where they'll fall, but they definitely deserve usage. There are a few mons I'm iffy on, like Azumarill, Serperior, Altaria, Landorus-T, and TTar, so in general I aired on the side of not moving things. I'd also like to rank Mew, because it's just a good mon that I've been using, but I'm waiting until I have more games with it. Same with Shed, since it's currently dominating OU.

I'm working on some samples. If people want to test these teams with me or have me look at their teams, hit me up. I've posted them for now, and have made a few passes through the sample sets and role compendium. The sample sets have been sucking up most of my time since they're , so sorry if it doesn't look like I've been updating things as quickly as I should.

 

[Tornadus-Therian]

I think part of the problem was your set. I'm not really sure what Ice Punch is supposed to accomplish--Toxic is a mandatory slot as far as I'm concerned. Few Steels want to take a Circle Throw, and few Poisons threaten you, so in my experience, it's been the most reliable status spreader on my stall team. Extreme Speed is also pretty pointless without investment.

It's true that a lot of things hit Normal/Fighting super effectively, but I think you're underestimating Bewear's bulk. Here are things I've stayed in on:

252 Atk Technician Marshadow Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Bewear on a critical hit: 182-216 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Bewear: 180-212 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I understand how bulky it is; I used it for a while. If you just consider the physical attackers that are in A- or higher, it flat out loses to everything except for Lopunny, TTar, Swampert, and Jolly Scarf Landorus-T. It still loses to Lopunny, Landorus, and Swampert if there's 1 layer of spikes up, or Lando is Adamant, SD, or Z move. It loses to CB Aero, Sub Zygarde (which is what Ice Punch is for), Lets Snuggle Mimikyu, Terrakion, Altaria, Zard-X, Hoopa, Mawile, and Medicham. I think pokemon like Quagsire, Toxapex, Celesteela, Buzzwole, Skarmory, Mew, and Landorus have a much better matchup spread against these threats because they have massively better typing and better bulk against non-contact or Fire-type moves.

 

[Jajoken]

(Sorry, my posted published before I finished it--not used to the new posting system on this forum :P)

It's true that a lot of things hit Normal/Fighting super effectively, but I think you're underestimating Bewear's bulk. Here are things I've stayed in on:

Hide

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Bewear: 180-212 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Bewear: 186-218 (41.8 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Bewear: 135-164 (30.4 - 36.9%) -- 59.1% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Bewear: 174-206 (39.1 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Technician Marshadow Storm Throw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fluffy Bewear on a critical hit: 182-216 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

More importantly, none of Bewear's "competition" that you listed is anywhere near as reliable at checking Tyranitar. Bewear actually resists Rock, which not only shuts down Tyranitar's STAB but reduces chip damage from repeated Stealth Rock switch-ins. Defensive Landorus and Buzzwole may be able to avoid a 2HKO, but unless you keep them at full, checking TTar over the course of a match is a lot harder. I haven't used Furfrou but a strong Circle Throw (even uninvested) is one of the draws to using Bewear in the first place, making it one of the better phasers IMO.

Here are a few replays of the team I've used Bewear on, so I'm not talking out my ass:

Hide

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-599905230
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-599909598
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-599912397
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-599940122
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-599965200
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7stabmons-599995198

I don't have any qualms about using unranked mons (#1 Tsareena user on the ladder, which I admit is now totally useless, but we had a good run) but personally I think Bewear has a very solid niche in the metagame and has served me well on stall.

Unrelated, but is there any discussing of a retest on Belly Drum? I think the problematic aspect of keeping it around was BellySpeed, but if there are any other users the utterly break the game even without it, I'd be interested to hear them.

 

[Tornadus-Therian]

A new month, a new set of mons to potentially suspect.

This month I would like to focus on improving resources and taking a look at everyone's (least) favorite birds: Thundurus-I, Aerodactyl, and M-Pidgeot. They all basically have the same problem: defensive play against them is extremely unreliable and they're fast as hell.

Thundy's standard Taunt/NP/OWing/X set has VERY few defensive checks, the most generally viable of which are SpD Pixie Plate Sylveon and several TTar sets, like Scarf, Band, and Mega. Unfortunately Sylveon is liable to get OHKO'd by bolt strike, and everything short of max/max Mega TTar gets OHKO'd by superpower. Other more niche checks tend to have poor matchup spreads outside of Thundy and still lose to several of its sets. Non-mega Diancie cannot avoid the 2hko from bolt strike. Rhydon cannot avoid the 2hko from focus blast. Stunfisk would win the matchup if it had better stats to either do enough damage to keep Thundy from setting up to +4 and just outhealing Stone Edge or Discharge, or enough bulk to invest in attack and not die to neutral coverage.

Choice Band Aerodactyl just clicks Head Smash and watches everything that doesn't resist drop. Occasionally it clicks Brave Bird to watch Ferrothorn die, or Accelerock to kill yanmega. Even more occasionally it actually gets walled by Hippowdon or Rhydon, if it doesn't pack Aqua Tail. And rarest of all, you find someone trying to convince people that Mega Steelix, Def Bronzong, and Mega Aggron are viable pokemon.

Mega Pidgeot is a bit of a different beast, since it's largely gotten around the whole "sleep moves are busted" thing with No Guard Sing. I am happy to either just get rid of Sing, and any other sleep moves that people have a problem with new mons learning. Or look at Mega Pidgeot as the problem itself. Pokemon like SpD Celesteela, Sylveon, Heatran, and TTar are great until they're asleep (bring back scarf sleep talk heatran y/y), and pokemon like Tapu Fini and Chansey lose the long game because they cannot keep taking hits or they get steadily whittled by boom -> sleep -> pivot or just sleep -> pivot.

TL;DR: run Rhydon and Stunfisk to beat all these mons and cry at how bad they are

pls discuss

 

[drampa's grandpa]

A new month, a new set of mons to potentially suspect.

This month I would like to focus on improving resources and taking a look at everyone's (least) favorite birds: Thundurus-I, Aerodactyl, and M-Pidgeot. They all basically have the same problem: defensive play against them is extremely unreliable and they're fast as hell.

Thundy's standard Taunt/NP/OWing/X set has VERY few defensive checks, the most generally viable of which are SpD Pixie Plate Sylveon and several TTar sets, like Scarf, Band, and Mega. Unfortunately Sylveon is liable to get OHKO'd by bolt strike, and everything short of max/max Mega TTar gets OHKO'd by superpower. Other more niche checks tend to have poor matchup spreads outside of Thundy and still lose to several of its sets. Non-mega Diancie cannot avoid the 2hko from bolt strike. Rhydon cannot avoid the 2hko from focus blast. Stunfisk would win the matchup if it had better stats to either do enough damage to keep Thundy from setting up to +4 and just outhealing Stone Edge or Discharge, or enough bulk to invest in attack and not die to neutral coverage.

Choice Band Aerodactyl just clicks Head Smash and watches everything that doesn't resist drop. Occasionally it clicks Brave Bird to watch Ferrothorn die, or Accelerock to kill yanmega. Even more occasionally it actually gets walled by Hippowdon or Rhydon, if it doesn't pack Aqua Tail. And rarest of all, you find someone trying to convince people that Mega Steelix, Def Bronzong, and Mega Aggron are viable pokemon.

Mega Pidgeot is a bit of a different beast, since it's largely gotten around the whole "sleep moves are busted" thing with No Guard Sing. I am happy to either just get rid of Sing, and any other sleep moves that people have a problem with new mons learning. Or look at Mega Pidgeot as the problem itself. Pokemon like SpD Celesteela, Sylveon, Heatran, and TTar are great until they're asleep (bring back scarf sleep talk heatran y/y), and pokemon like Tapu Fini and Chansey lose the long game because they cannot keep taking hits or they get steadily whittled by boom -> sleep -> pivot or just sleep -> pivot.

TL:DR; run Rhydon and Stunfisk to beat all these mons and cry at how bad they are

pls discuss

I would like to note that Thundurus cannot boost to +4 against Stunfisk because Stunfisk has the godly move Eerie Impulse.

In all seriousness though Thundurus is obscenely broken. The best checks to its Nasty Plot sets are murdered by All-Out-Attacker sets. The most you can really say is it can't run everything at once. It is also really hard to revenge short of Band Ttar thanks to Oblivion Wing preventing it from getting worn down into range of priority over the match.

Aerodactyl is also broken, but marginally less so imo. What really sets it apart from other nukes is its obscene 130 base speed, making it capable both of wallbreaking and cleaning. Because its really only spamming its stabs it has a lot of flexibility in the last two slots. Yanmega a problem? Run Accelerock. Hippo / Rhydon? Aqua Tail. Need Stealth Rock and can't fit it elsewhere? Sure, why not. However because its very reliant on contact moves I find that it can be worn down or crippled if not played carefully, but that this often requires sacking a mon. I think I saw ppads aero theorymonned somewhere so that could be cool.

No comment on Mega Pidgeot yet.

EDIT: Mega Pidgeot has counterplay, but it's rather limited (Tapu Fini and SpD Sableye-Mega being two of the only stops that don't lose major momentum to sleep, while Chansey can abuse Natural Cure). Its ability to sleep almost any Pokemon and its high powered STAB moves mean that actual switchins without abusing Sleep Clause are few and far between. I don't think Pidgeot is as broken as the other birds I mentioned, but I do think that it's problematic.

I've seen Sing cited as the source of the problem and I'm not sure how I would feel about a Sing ban v a Pidgeotite ban. On the one hand, Sing is clearly only a problem on Pidgeot. Banning Sing doesn't really fit into the OU ban policy; it's banning one aspect of a Pokemon in order to nerf it, rather than banning the problem Pokemon. On the other hand, I do think that banning Sing will make the meta lose the least while removing the problematic element (fast, accurate sleep). I also think that this ban could be justified by the other tools Pidgeot brings to the table, including its speed tier, high powered drawback-free moves, and access to pivoting.

 

[Akumeoy]

Kommo-o @ Kommonium Z
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Clanging Scales
- Secret Sword
- Flash Cannon

So I had Sub Zygarde on a team, and consequently I needed something that can lure in Sylveon and Mega Altaria, and then I remembered that Kommo-O gets Soundproof... turns out that, on top of answering those two, Kommo-O can easily sweep unprepared teams after a universal +1 boost; while it won't always land OHKOs, +1 on both sides makes it surprisingly difficult to take down in one go. Clanging Scales also lets it check most Zygarde sets even after they get up sub. It struggles with stuff like Fini and Celesteela, so you'll need to remove those first, but don't let that stop you. Also take out Mimikyu first for obvious reasons (Flash Cannon doesn't OHKO at +1).

As much as Flamethrower would help on this set, Taunt + Flash Cannon is necessary for actually breaking MAlt and Sylveon, who could otherwise just stall it out. An alternative version of the set, with Bulletproof > Soundproof and Flamethrower > Flash Cannon, would be better suited for taking on things like Celesteela, Landorus-T, Mega Scizor, and Magearna. I haven't tested that, though.

 

[drampa's grandpa]

I've been tentatively trying out an old friend recently to see if it could possibly be viable post-Espeed

am i still viable? (Ursaring) @ Sitrus Berry / Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum / Swords Dance
- Quick Attack
- Fire Punch / Close Combat
- Return / Facade

This gal (I used the female sprite lul) really misses Espeed, as goes without saying. However I've found that Quick Attack has been enough to KO many offensive Pokemon after rocks (with Belly Drum set ofc), while speed investment allows it to outpace defensive mons (with 0 investment) base 86 Speed or lower, which misses Lando-T, but just passes 0 speed Rotom-A (and Lando-T is likely not running anything that's incredibly threatening to you if it's defensive).

I haven't tried Flame Orb SD yet but it's theoretically an option without the one-time power but with more revenge-kill capabilities and the ability to set up more than once. It's also almost as strong unless Bdrum Ursaring get's burnt.

This of course can have some trouble setting up, but the meta is much less prepared for normal priority than it was before the main form of normal priority was banned for some strange reason. If you do manage to set up with rocks on the field it's not easy to stop.

There are of course ways to beat it; it's neither op nor meta-defining nor even a top tier mon. If you run Close Combat any ghost hardwalls (I run it with a Pursuit trapper, specifically Ashninja, I swear it's viable), Quagsire walls if it's not Facade or lolSeedBomb. Faster priority, especially Mach Punch, beats it. But the best way to beat it imo is to just keep enough offensive pressure on that it can't safely set up.

some calcs

Quick Attack:
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 396-466 (138.9 - 163.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 384-453 (128.4 - 151.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 303-357 (111.8 - 131.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 313-370 (96.9 - 114.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl: 203-239 (67.4 - 79.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Altaria-Mega: 264-312 (74.5 - 88.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (post-mega rocks)
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Altaria-Mega: 264-312 (74.5 - 88.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (pre-mega rocks)
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Quick Attack vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 244-288 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Return:
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 501-591 (165.3 - 195%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+5 252+ Atk Ursaring Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 493-582 (129 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 450-531 (111.6 - 131.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Coverage:
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 404-476 (101.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 682-804 (193.7 - 228.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

EDIT: I would also like to propose swapping Altaria-Mega and Sylveon in the viability rankings. Sylveon is one of the best glue mons in the tier rn, as an amazing hazard remover, cleric, and bulkmon. I find myself slotting it in on almost every team that has any semblance of a defensive core recently. It's one of the only real counters to Nasty Plot Thundurus (not physical sets though). Altaria-Mega is a decent wallbreaker that hits hard with Boomburst, but I find it pretty mediocre post-espeed. It's best niche imo is a good matchup against Keldeo and Greninja against for facing down rain teams (or against them on non-rain, they're good mons). If rain becomes less common then it currently is I could see it falling farther.

tl;dr
Altaria-Mega A- --> B+
Sylveon B+ --> A-

 

[Funbot28]

Ok so we got our ladder back so its time to use my trusty Max Revive. (Aka lets talk about the meta and what I personally feel should be done to move forward).

The Current Metagame:

I feel the current meta is pretty dominated by the above listed mons, where wallbreakers such as Aerodactyl and Thundurus lack much counterplay given how the former has access to an essentially free 150 BP STAB move which blows most of the meta coupled with another great high BP STAB move for coverage, while the ladder can either run setup boosting sets, full physical / specially offensive sets, or a mixture of the two to great success, heavily limiting the amount of defensive checks it has depending on what set is chooses to run. Other setup boosters such as Work Up Mega Pidgeot and Dragon Dance Zygarde are also extremely good right now since they can bypass their respective checks through Sleep and Recovery + good bulk respectively. Celesteela is just a fat wall that can single handheldly check the majority of threats in one slot while being annoying through the use of stuff like Beak Blast, Anchor Shot and Oblivion Wing (this isn't even going into offensive sets which are not only usable but quite viable). The combination of all these threats to cover puts quite a strain on teambuilding at the current moment imo as even staple defensive pivots such as Rotom-W, Landorus-T, Tangrowth, and Toxapex struggle to reliably account for all the aforementioned threats due to the versatility of these threats which enables them to bypass their answers in most regards.

I feel this issue was enhanced pretty significantly after the Espeed ban as most of these offensive checks lost a means of properly checking them without needing to resort to defensive pivots that can sometimes not fit onto certain teams as well, skewing the team's structure as a result. At the moment I personally feel balance to be incredibly hard to build especially when one needs to consider other miscellaneous yet popular threats such as Yanmega, Ash-Greninja, and offensive Landorus-T.

What can be done?

I do not want to start going on a bandwagon and start banning Pokemon mindlessly if it is not necessary. However, I do feel key threats such as Aerodactyl and Thundurus have been given too much free reign and should be considered to be looked into in hopes of creating a somewhat more stable metagame for the time being. Other stuff such as Mega Pidgeot and Anchor Shot can be considered consequently, but I really feel the stone bird and electric genie should be brought up first. What are your guys thoughts?

Also Electrify Zeraoara is a meme plz stop using it

 

[Roldski32]

I've been playing a lot of STABmons for many times and I would like to share my opinion about these pokemon.

Indeed, this thing hits very hard when equipped with Choice Band. I only see a few pokemon that could switch-in on Head Smash, and they're vulnerable to its other STAB or its coverage. And its high Speed makes it hard to outsped it outside of Choice Scarf user. Some Steel-types have a secondary typing that prevent it from resisting either Rock or Flying like Celesteela and Ferrothorn. I almost never encountered a Mega-Steelix, which can counter Aerodactyl thanks it being able to resist its dual STAB and avoid a 2HKO from band Earthquake thanks to its massive Defense stat. Maybe because its takes up a Mega Slot.

Most Zygarde I encounter runs Substitute,Shore Up,Dragon Dance and Thousand Arrows. And some people might think Zygarde is easily walled by Grass-Types and Bug-Types due to the fact that it often runs Thousand Arrows as its sole attacking move. However, both Bug and Grass are weak to the common Flying-Types in the tier, considering many of them are top-threats. With Sylveon now running specially defensive often and sometimes forgoing Leftovers for Pixie Plate, It is vulnerable to get 2HKOed by unboosted Thousand Arrows after Stealth Rock.

Thundurus-I is still broken to me. The post-Espeed ban benefits him a lot and it has a lot of viable sets to bypass its checks. I feel like we should suspect test this first before the others. Sometimes, I was able to brings this and set-up against Ferrothorn, Skarmory and defensive Celesteela.

Now I've been running this balance-like team for months and i'm still managed to win many battles with it even on tournaments room, especially reaching finals many times. For my experience, Yes, Balance teams can be hard to build. I'm struggling with Choice Band Aerodactyl that I often end up sacking my Landorus-T just to burn it. I also have major problem against opposing Thundurus-I. Its rather difficult to cover these threats when making a Balance team in my opinion.

Edit : I don't get why everyone i fought is always setting up Sticky Web against this team of mine with 3 Flying-Types, 1 Levitate and a Chansey.

 

[Funbot28]

Now with OMWC rolling around....

version 3.0
​

Welcome to O.T.R.! The council has been hard at work gathering intel about dangerous threats roaming the STABmons ladder. In this post, you'll see what threats we are keeping a close watch on, and the likelihood of said threats to be banned based on their distances. After a few days of laddering and discussion from the date of this post, the council will reconvene and announce which of the following targets have been eliminated.

Thundurus <5m
An amazing setup sweeper and wallbreaker with it's Nasty Plot and Mixed Defiant sets respectively. Thundurus has recently demonstrated its choke-hold on the metagame due to the lackluster amount of counterplay there can be towards it. A high Speed stat in combination with the ability to shut down defensive threats via Taunt and setup boosts enables Thundurus to threaten both offensive and defensive playstyles alike. The council believes this to be the most pressing suspect at the moment.

Terrakion <15m
Terrakion is another amazing wallbreaker that takes advantage of its great offensive STAB combo to nearly threaten every defensive wall in the tier. Boosting sets utilizing a Choice Band or Swords Dance + a STAB Z-Move turns Terrakion into one of the most difficult threats to switch into in the tier without resorting to niche checks such as Palossand. It does get outspeed by faster threats such as Mega Lopunny, Aerodactyl, and Greninja, however Terrakion's dominance over more defensive teams is why we believe it should be looked at.

[distant threat detection - additional reconnaissance required]

Ash-Greninja < 30m
Ash-Greninja may have a harder time transforming into it's Ash forme in standard play at times due to the lackluster power before transforming. However, in STABmons it can abuse its new access to moves such as Nasty Plot, Water Spout, and even Steam Eruption to have a much more easier time setting up. Even offensive checks may be taken out via Water Shuriken if they have been weakened enough. Once it nabs a KO, Ash-Greninja may lack many defensive checks besides hard counters such as Tapu Fini, Tangrowth, and Tapu Bulu. However, it may still have a difficult time transforming with the aforementioned threats present, which is why it is a suspect worth debating upon.

Pidgeot-Mega < 50m
Mega Pidgeot has always been a a great mega choice in the STABmons metagame due to its access to reliable Sleep inducer in Sing alongside a powerful spammable STAB in Boomburst alongside coverage in Heat Wave. With this in mind, Mega Pidgeot can break down even its defensive checks if luck is on its side, and can still pivot out against its check with U-turn if it struggles. Still, pokemon such as Tyranitar, Heatran, Aerodactyl, and Celesteela still prove to be great answers to it which is why it is a suspect with a greater distance.

Leave your thoughts in the thread about the above suspects in mind. Council feedback will be given once significant discussion has been acquired.

 

[Akumeoy]

Now with OMWC rolling around....

version 3.0
​

Welcome to O.T.R.! The council has been hard at work gathering intel about dangerous threats roaming the STABmons ladder. In this post, you'll see what threats we are keeping a close watch on, and the likelihood of said threats to be banned based on their distances. After a few days of laddering and discussion from the date of this post, the council will reconvene and announce which of the following targets have been eliminated.

Thundurus <5m
An amazing setup sweeper and wallbreaker with it's Nasty Plot and Mixed Defiant sets respectively. Thundurus has recently demonstrated its choke-hold on the metagame due to the lackluster amount of counterplay there can be towards it. A high Speed stat in combination with the ability to shut down defensive threats via Taunt and setup boosts enables Thundurus to threaten both offensive and defensive playstyles alike. The council believes this to be the most pressing suspect at the moment.

Terrakion <15m
Terrakion is another amazing wallbreaker that takes advantage of its great offensive STAB combo to nearly threaten every defensive wall in the tier. Boosting sets utilizing a Choice Band or Swords Dance + a STAB Z-Move turns Terrakion into one of the most difficult threats to switch into in the tier without resorting to niche checks such as Palossand. It does get outspeed by faster threats such as Mega Lopunny, Aerodactyl, and Greninja, however Terrakion's dominance over more defensive teams is why we believe it should be looked at.

[distant threat detection - additional reconnaissance required]

Ash-Greninja < 30m
Ash-Greninja may have a harder time transforming into it's Ash forme in standard play at times due to the lackluster power before transforming. However, in STABmons it can abuse its new access to moves such as Nasty Plot, Water Spout, and even Steam Eruption to have a much more easier time setting up. Even offensive checks may be taken out via Water Shuriken if they have been weakened enough. Once it nabs a KO, Ash-Greninja may lack many defensive checks besides hard counters such as Tapu Fini, Tangrowth, and Tapu Bulu. However, it may still have a difficult time transforming with the aforementioned threats present, which is why it is a suspect worth debating upon.

Pidgeot-Mega < 50m
Mega Pidgeot has always been a a great mega choice in the STABmons metagame due to its access to reliable Sleep inducer in Sing alongside a powerful spammable STAB in Boomburst alongside coverage in Heat Wave. With this in mind, Mega Pidgeot can break down even its defensive checks if luck is on its side, and can still pivot out against its check with U-turn if it struggles. Still, pokemon such as Tyranitar, Heatran, Aerodactyl, and Celesteela still prove to be great answers to it which is why it is a suspect with a greater distance.

Leave your thoughts in the thread about the above suspects in mind. Council feedback will be given once significant discussion has been acquired.

It seems worth noting that Terrakion notably receives Accelerock and Mach Punch, two priority moves that greatly improve its matchup vs. offensive teams. The faster threats mentioned -- Aerodactyl, MLop, and Thundurus -- all fear one of the two moves. It's a potent revenge killer as well as a wallbreaker.

 

[drampa's grandpa]

I personally find Thundurus to be an absurdly difficult threat to properly counter. It has some reliable checks in Tyranitar and Aerodactyl (and other, less common Pokemon like Weavile) while Pokemon like Greninja can revenge it depending on the set (Full health Water Spout or Ice Beam will always kill an uninvested Thundy) but nothing can reliably switch in and win. The fact that it has two extremely good sets that cover both sides of the offensive spectrum make it really hard to play against. Anything that doesnt OHKO it or resist Oblivion Wing will likely lose to the special set, and thanks to the draining effect Thundurus won't even be significantly weakened making it really hard to revenge kill. It also heavily pressures Defoggers thanks to the possibility of it being Defiant, and I can't think of a Spinner that wants to allow it in. Overall it's incredibly difficult to beat Thundurus reliably without relying on either revenge killing or on different checks for each set, which then creates problems in that you have to scout it.

tl;dr Thundy having two top tier sets with entirely different answers is too much, pls ban.

It is, again, nearly impossible to switch into SD Z-Terrakion. Building this OMWC has impressed upon me the difficulty of properly preparing for this monster. While it does have some proper answers they are sparcer then you'd think.
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 333-393 (79.8 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Doublade works but has no recovery. Palossand works but lolsucks otherwise. Revenge killing with stuff like Mlop works,, but thanks to STAB priority options and Diamond Storm Defense boosts is made more difficult than in standard. Scarf Lando-T works but is vulnerable to being chipped. Bulky Band Zygarde also works but has a similar issue, and cant switch in more than once (without band it loses if they boost twice then CC).

On the other hand, Terrakion faces some practical roadblocks. It is heavily reliant on its Z move to break many walls, and once spent is much less threatening. It is fairly predictable, so while the options for prepping for it are fairly limited, they are pretty consistent. Scarfers and fastmons not weak to rock and without paper defenses often act as reliable checks to Terrak, and it is usually forced to SD to gain its sky-high levels of offense, meaning that being forced out often leaves it with more turns when a SD can be predicted and abused for chip or a KO.

I don't know if I'm actually pro-ban on Terrakion. It's 100% an offensive juggernaut. Defensive counterplay is very limited. But that's true for a ton of Pokemon in STABmons, and I'm not sure I see Terrak as standing far enough above the rest to warrant a ban. Not sure I don't see it either though :3

While Ash-Ninja can acheive ridiculous levels of power (252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 318-375 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO) I personally find that it requires too much support to reach it's peak levels of bork. Nasty Plot, being Ash'd (obv), Water Spout, and Rain (less this as it's still amazing outside of rain) all contribute to it's absurd power levels, and I don't think any should be assumed. It's too frail to reliably set up Nasty Plot, needs to already pose an offensive threat to the opposing team to Ash itself, has to be babied to maintain its powerful spouts, and obviously stuff hits really hard in rain. My biggest problem with Ash-Ninja personally is its ability to flinch past otherwise reliable answers. I personally lean against banning this.

F*ck fast and reliable sleep. While Pidg has answers there's like 1.5 of them (Chansey and kinda Sleep Talk Scarftran but lol) that doesn't hate being slept. Pidg can then spam attacks or pivot all over its answers. Pidg being present in a game basically turns the match into "what can I sleep fodder" versus "can I sleep the right thing" which is honestly not much about skill and more about guessing right. There are some ways around this; Tapu Fini can keep Misty Terrain down and prevent sleep, although it's not a very reliable answer to Mega Pidgeot (252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Fini: 142-168 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery) especially since Boomburst has more PP than Moonlight.

I don't think Pidg is broken; really I don't, but I think there's a solid argument for it being uncompetitive due to its speed, its reliability, and the fact that it can pivot (thus avoiding the burning of Sleep turns against things it cant KO).

I may add more thoughts on these later, or fish up some replays.

 

[Akashi]

Now with OMWC rolling around....

version 3.0
​

Welcome to O.T.R.! The council has been hard at work gathering intel about dangerous threats roaming the STABmons ladder. In this post, you'll see what threats we are keeping a close watch on, and the likelihood of said threats to be banned based on their distances. After a few days of laddering and discussion from the date of this post, the council will reconvene and announce which of the following targets have been eliminated.

Thundurus <5m
An amazing setup sweeper and wallbreaker with it's Nasty Plot and Mixed Defiant sets respectively. Thundurus has recently demonstrated its choke-hold on the metagame due to the lackluster amount of counterplay there can be towards it. A high Speed stat in combination with the ability to shut down defensive threats via Taunt and setup boosts enables Thundurus to threaten both offensive and defensive playstyles alike. The council believes this to be the most pressing suspect at the moment.

Terrakion <15m
Terrakion is another amazing wallbreaker that takes advantage of its great offensive STAB combo to nearly threaten every defensive wall in the tier. Boosting sets utilizing a Choice Band or Swords Dance + a STAB Z-Move turns Terrakion into one of the most difficult threats to switch into in the tier without resorting to niche checks such as Palossand. It does get outspeed by faster threats such as Mega Lopunny, Aerodactyl, and Greninja, however Terrakion's dominance over more defensive teams is why we believe it should be looked at.

[distant threat detection - additional reconnaissance required]

Ash-Greninja < 30m
Ash-Greninja may have a harder time transforming into it's Ash forme in standard play at times due to the lackluster power before transforming. However, in STABmons it can abuse its new access to moves such as Nasty Plot, Water Spout, and even Steam Eruption to have a much more easier time setting up. Even offensive checks may be taken out via Water Shuriken if they have been weakened enough. Once it nabs a KO, Ash-Greninja may lack many defensive checks besides hard counters such as Tapu Fini, Tangrowth, and Tapu Bulu. However, it may still have a difficult time transforming with the aforementioned threats present, which is why it is a suspect worth debating upon.

Pidgeot-Mega < 50m
Mega Pidgeot has always been a a great mega choice in the STABmons metagame due to its access to reliable Sleep inducer in Sing alongside a powerful spammable STAB in Boomburst alongside coverage in Heat Wave. With this in mind, Mega Pidgeot can break down even its defensive checks if luck is on its side, and can still pivot out against its check with U-turn if it struggles. Still, pokemon such as Tyranitar, Heatran, Aerodactyl, and Celesteela still prove to be great answers to it which is why it is a suspect with a greater distance.

Leave your thoughts in the thread about the above suspects in mind. Council feedback will be given once significant discussion has been acquired.

thundy should be suspected at least imo, thundy puts so much pressure on teambuilding for teams and it has almost no counters
physical sets beat lando and other grounds and special sets with taunt just dominate stall or bulky teams that depend on chans. there isnt much counter-play to thundy, the best answers to thundy are zera/chans/mlatios/latias,rotom-h and ttar but they are checks at best and they are all bypassed by coverage/taunt. however it can be outplayed and its easy to make out its moveset

terrakion shouldnt even be here, i have never had a problem with this mon personally nor have i seen it do anytime that can be deemed to be worthy of a suspect. terrakion is a simple mon, sd zmove is the only noticeable set worth talking about honestly. with the high surge of mega latios/latias/slowbros/scarf defensive lando i have yet to see terrakion perform on the same level as anything that has been mentioned above.
scarf lando just shut its down permanently

ash greninja is up in the air for me, i have used it a ton and its only good in the rain. i have seen some np z move/np water shuriken techs come to play and it had alot of impact but not enough to put it on the suspect bench

mega pidgeot, now alot has beeen downplaying this mon, this mon i believe should suspected as well, spammable stabs with no drawbacks a simple 3 attacks+roost can really make a team drop even if u pack every pidge check in the book along with sleep

 

[Ahhhhhh......Clefable.]

Out of curiosity (and apologies if I've missed this somewhere else,) but will the new special moves from Pokemon Let's Go (Sappy Seed / Bouncy Bubble / Buzzy Buzz etc.) be available for use in STABmons? They seem game breaking and overwhelming, way too good, but I still wanted to ask.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Out of curiosity (and apologies if I've missed this somewhere else,) but will the new special moves from Pokemon Let's Go (Sappy Seed / Bouncy Bubble / Buzzy Buzz etc.) be available for use in STABmons? They seem game breaking and overwhelming, way too good, but I still wanted to ask.

No, as STABmons is an USUM based metagame. if they ever make it to gen 8, they will probably be looked at individually since not all of them look gamebreaking.