Metagame STABmons

EV

Banned deucer.
Setup is super cancerous and completely warps the way offense is allowed to build, which in turn dictates the way the entire metagame is allowed to build.

^In a post-Espeed world. Js we're fucked regardless, but at least Espeed is the devil we already know.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
Setup is super cancerous and completely warps the way offense is allowed to build, which in turn dictates the way the entire metagame is allowed to build.

^In a post-Espeed world. Js we're fucked regardless, but at least Espeed is the devil we already know.
This is completely flawed reasoning. Have you possibly considered that maybe banning Espeed could make set-up less unmanageable and cancerous?

btw, i am totally pro-ban for espeed, it would help make the meta a lot less stale and boring, no priority move even compares to espeed
 
Setup is super cancerous and completely warps the way offense is allowed to build, which in turn dictates the way the entire metagame is allowed to build.

^In a post-Espeed world. Js we're fucked regardless, but at least Espeed is the devil we already know.
It feels that way because you cannot revenge extreme killers through conventional means (scarfers, +1 priority, weather speed boost), and most extreme killers are near unwallable because they can afford to run coverage and lure walls for other ekillers to sweep. Counterplay to other types of sweepers outside of fakespeed are severely underexplored because using ekiller spam just beats all other forms of sweeping and more.

The way the meta is now is similar to the pheromosa OU meta. Why bother using other sweepers or entire archetypes (like weather being invalidated) when you can just use pheromosa? Replace the word pheromosa with extreme killers, and this is the current state of STABmons. This is the state of an unhealthy metagame. Ekiller spam invalidates most other forms of offense and has a strong matchup spread against everything else. Ban espeed and more forms of offense and defense can actually be truly viable (won't have to splash celesteela/lando on every fat team). And if down the road there are a couple other individual sweepers that are too strong for the tier, then suspect those too. The metagame has potential for a lot of diversity, but espeed is choking it.

On an side note, many of these ekillers would run quick attack if espeed is banned and still be threatening lol. They'd just require chip to sweep like an actual sweeper should require, which the current ekillers don't.
 
Setup is super cancerous and completely warps the way offense is allowed to build, which in turn dictates the way the entire metagame is allowed to build.

^In a post-Espeed world. Js we're fucked regardless, but at least Espeed is the devil we already know.
Is team support that big of a concern? Mono Stabmons has espeed banned and all the same threats, but rather than being broken there is only 1-2 setup sweepers of any note. Rregular Stabmons even has more anti setup options, from Unaware to Ditto to Transform to Mimikyu to phazing to physical walls to prankster. I've seen plenty of espeedless teams that nonetheless aren't setup bait for sweepers.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
This is completely flawed reasoning. Have you possibly considered that maybe banning Espeed could make set-up less unmanageable and cancerous?
This seems... unlikely. It nerfs exactly one type of set-up sweeper, Espeed spammers, and simply removes the best form of revenge killer for all the rest.

However I think it's important to note that we've banned basically all the really op set-up moves. Shift Gear, Shell Smash, Geomancy, Belly Drum, and Lolacupressure are limited to their original mons leaving Tail Glow, Quiver Dance, Dragon Dance, and Swords Dance as good setup moves that are being distributed. I was going to go through them all but I'm not sure that would help. Basically I agree with QT and Kurai; there is other counterplay it's just not used because of how good Espeed is. Try scarf Latios, Scarf/Band Terrakion, Band Dragonite or Zygarde, Weavile, Ash-Greninja, Band Tyranitar, etc etc. None of these are less than good in the current metagame except maybe Dragonite.

I think you* should open your mind to a suspect of Espeed. Not a qb obviously; this is an extremely important part of the meta and the effects on the metagame would be good to see, but I think doing nothing about it is ignoring the elephant in the room, so to speak.

Also unrelated but what are we doing about the Rotom mechanics TI wanted us to change? And what would that mean for Oricorio and Silvally?

*Edit: talking to ev here not yung dramps lel
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
I'm sorry for double posting but I've got a bit I've been waiting to say and it's been awhile and now I'm finally back on a computer sooo

1) The viability rankings need a pretty complete refurbishing. I have a lot of thoughts on this but this should probably overall wait until after the suspect because otherwise it's wasted effort. However I do think ihhca needs to not be in charge of it cuz he's p dead (sry ihhca ;-;) (Ihhca is back so him being in charge of viability is cool ;) yay for returning) and for now it would be nice to see at the very least Porygon-Z taken off (literally banned lel) and Tyranitar moved to A+, because it's p metadefining rn.
I'm really too lazy and tired to defend these thoughts atm but can defend them if needed. I'm also open to changing my mind about most of them, so long as you don't try to tell me Lando-T isn't S or something and so long as u provide decent reasoning.
S
Lando-T (stay)
S- (I do think we need an S- rank, as a couple of the A+ mons stand out as better than the rest to me as more meta-influencing, flexible, and dangerous)
Celesteela (from A+)
Tyranitar (from A)

Borderline
Thundurus (Probably A+)(from A+)

A+
Diggersby
Greninja-Ash
Lopunny-Mega
Toxapex
Zygarde (everything here was already A+)

A
Aerodactyl
Chansey
Ferrothorn
Heatran
Magearna
Medicham-Mega
Pidgeot-Mega
Terrakion
Venusaur-Mega (yes it lost spore but it's still an incredible all-round tank with decent offensive presence that's very annoying to take down without Flying or Psychic moves)

borderline:
Buzzwole (probably the best single tank for dealing with the physical meta and one of the only mons that can actually counter common Diggersby sets, yes even LO Fire Punch loses when Buzz switches in +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 184+ Def Buzzwole: 328-387 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, 0 Atk Buzzwole Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diggersby: 356-420 (114.4 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO. EVs taken from Buzzwoles uber physical wall set, not recommended. CC > Hammer Arm but I'm lazy.)
Mimikyu (Has fallen off, but for a one trick pony it has a damn good one trick.)
Rotom-W (No Spore anymore. How much does that matter? Good question.)

That's it I'm lazy

Things idk about that were in the above ranks:
-Greninja: does this actually have a notable niche over Ash-Ninja in STAB? There's basically no opportunity cost to using Ash-Ninja other than slightly weaker coverage and I guess losing the defensive benefits of Protean but Greninja is made of paper anyway.
-Diancie-Mega: Again; is there a reason this is so high in the first place? I feel like I would have trouble justifying its use over Terrakion/Aerodactyl/Ttar as an offensive rock type in general and has the opportunity cost of being a mega.

2) Please suspect Extremespeed alongside Diggersby.
If set-up proves to be incredibly broken without Extremespeed we can vote no ban, but I doubt it will be. Things like Yanmega aren't reliably dealt with by Fakespeeders anyway, barring LO Diggersby (which has to play mindgames with Protect woops and if Yan has sash Diggers just loses). Setup isn't balanced in STAB only because of Fakespeed, in fact atm Fakespeed seems like the most unbalanced setup.

The best set-up sweepers in the tier (barring Fakespeeders) are probably Thundy and Zygarde. I don't see either of these becoming broken post-espeed honestly; Zygarde especially already isn't revenge killed by most espeeders while Thundy is beaten notably by Accelerock Tyranitar along with being revenged by a good number of scarfers/Accelerock mons/Ice Shard mons. Looking at the viability rankings now the only pokemon I see potentially being broken in a post-speed world are possibly Ash-Ninja and Thundy, and we won't know until we try out the meta. I also don't think that keeping something so obviously overcentralizing as Espeed is worth it for a couple pokemon.

honestly I'm fking tired of going out of my way to run weird sets like 148 def Aerodactyl and 68/252 def Accelgor just to live specific Espeeds / Fakespeeds. If I wanted that I'd go to 1v1 :3

I know a lot of this is a rehash of what has been previously said but I think it's really important because basically everybody I talk to thinks that suspecting or banning Espeed is the way forward. I would like to hear... well anything really, but specifically why it you think it shouldn't happen, if you still think that way (besides it makes setup op, which I've addressed twice now), and if not, what and when is going to be done about it..

3) unban tapu lele yeaaahhhh go communism good night new york

Edit: lol April fools don't unban lele
 
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A few of my thoughts:

1) I'm back and I don't see myself leaving again unexpectedly any time soon. Yay!

2) Since P-Z and Spore were banned, I'm looking to update the VR again, since I think a lot of Grass types are a lot worse now. I've removed PZ already. Any input is welcome.

3) I don't have an issue with ESpeed itself, but I'm open to suspecting it wholesale. I'm interested in seeing what the metagame would look like without it. I'm also on board with a Diggersby suspect, since it has a huge amount of offensive role compression. Personally, I think Ursaring is a 1 for 1 replacement for it on every team, so I'm not really sure how much would change. I also think that Thundurus-I and Aerodactyl are the most broken things in the meta right now, but a lot of that is my personal bias from playing bulky teams.

4) You don't need ESpeed to win. I've found more success playing Full Stall recently than my previous Semistall and Balance teams. I'm currently quintuple peaked on ladder mostly with Stall, which at least shows that ESpeed-free teams are viable. If I'm playing balance or offense, I'll probably bring a FakeSpeeder because there's no real reason to forgo such a powerful, versatile tool.

5) That said, I agree with most of what's bring said about the strengths of ESpeed and its impact on the metagame. I mostly think that these sentiments are exaggerated due to peoples' unwillingness to play truly bulky teams with honest to god Diggersby counters, like Counter Skarmory and Mega Slowbro. But I understand that most people don't actually want to play these teams and shouldn't feel undo pressure to switch archetypes.

6) Please ladder more. It's not hard to get a game right now; there are usually 1-5 games going on depending on what time of day it is.

Again, I'm gonna give the VR a good look soon. Any noms are welcome.
 
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EXTREME SUSPECT TESTING!
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FEATURING EXTREME FONT CHOICES!
It has come time to suspect one of STABmons most notorious moves: Extreme Speed. This move is the best priority available to any reasonable Pokemon, and is easily paired with Swords Dance and/or Fake Out to let offensive Pokemon bypass speed tiers. It provides Pokemon like Diggersby, Altaria, and Lopunny with immense offensive role compression, since it is powerful enough to knock out fairly bulky Pokemon after a boost or chip from Fake Out, and has high enough priority to go first in almost every situation. It is a strong enough option that even Pokemon like the late Porygon-Z and Sylveon have run it off of 80 and 65 Base Atk to great effect. Many people feel that this move is putting a stranglehold on what can viably sweep, since many Pokemon simply fail the "FakeSpeed" test and are prone to getting revenge killed from full. Many people also find it difficult to build reasonable teams that can check the wide range of Pokemon trying to sweep with Extreme Speed, since they collectively have extremely diverse coverage options (from Protective Pads Fire Punch, to Pixilate Boomburst, to suddenly being at +6).

The suspect will last until the end of the month. The requirements are 80 GXE and a 30 game minimum on an alt with "espeed" in the name. There will also be a few suspect tours between now and then, with the winners getting reqs without needing to ladder. Extreme Speed will be banned on ladder. Tagging The Immortal to let me know if there's anything I'm missing or that seems off about this. Thanks!
ESP eed
FooESpeed
espeedfoo
Fooe Spe EdBar
Foo
ESpee
ESPfooEED
speedE
P.S. I'm holding off on VR moves until after this is completed, since it seems counterproductive to potentially move things twice. Noms are still very welcome.
 
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anaconja

long day at job
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
It has come time to suspect one of STABmons most notorious moves: Extreme Speed. This move is the best priority available to any reasonable Pokemon, and is easily paired with Swords Dance and/or Fake Out to let offensive Pokemon bypass speed tiers. It provides Pokemon like Diggersby, Altaria, and Lopunny with immense offensive role compression, since it is powerful enough to knock out fairly bulky Pokemon after a boost or chip from Fake Out, and has high enough priority to go first in almost every situation. It is a strong enough option that even Pokemon like the late Porygon-Z and Sylveon have run it off of 80 and 65 Base Atk to great effect. Many people feel that this move is putting a stranglehold on what can viably sweep, since many Pokemon simply fail the "FakeSpeed" test and are prone to getting revenge killed from full. Many people also find it difficult to build reasonable teams that can check the wide range of Pokemon trying to sweep with Extreme Speed, since they collectively have extremely diverse coverage options (from Protective Pads Fire Punch, to Pixilate Boomburst, to suddenly being at +6).

The suspect will last until the end of the month. The requirements are 80 GXE and a 30 game minimum, with a few suspect tours between now and then. Extreme Speed will be banned on ladder. Tagging The Immortal to let me know if there's anything I'm missing or that seems off about this. Thanks!

P.S. I'm holding off on VR moves until after this is completed, since it seems counterproductive to potentially move things twice. Noms are still very welcome.
Extreme Speed is not actually banned on the ladder, might want to fix that
 
STAB reqs.png

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It turns out that the min games isn't doing anything right now, since you need to be almost exactly 30-0 to get 80.0 GXE with how low the average ladder is. We'll see if this continues through the rest of the month, although I doubt it will. I laddered with a new team of Terrak/Aero/Zygarde/MVenu/Rotom-W/Heatran for the first 25 games, and then my stall team for the last 8. My losses came from the standard crits coming at inopportune times, which is normal for playing bulky teams. Overall I like how the meta functions without espeed. CB Aerodactyl seems like a problem mon to me, although Defensive Hippo/Zygarde do well against it, but that's a discussion for after the suspect. I'm gonna hold off on voting for a while, I think, while I get used to running Choice Scarf on my teams again.

It was quite easy to get games on ladder for the most part. I saw 7 simultaneous games at one point. There were a few times that I had to wait maybe 30 seconds toward the end, but overall there was high activity :toast:.

I've deleted my previous posts and consolidated their info into the initial post.
 
The current reqs seem a bit extreme, so I'm turning them down to 75 gxe, still over 30 games. The daily STABmons tour this sunday will count as a suspect tour; whoever wins gets reqs for free. If you can't make this, let me know what a better time would be, and if there's enough of a consensus I will organize another suspect tour in the <<stabmons>> room.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
The current reqs seem a bit extreme, so I'm turning them down to 75 gxe, still over 30 games. The daily STABmons tour this sunday will count as a suspect tour; whoever wins gets reqs for free. If you can't make this, let me know what a better time would be, and if there's enough of a consensus I will organize another suspect tour in the <<stabmons>> room.
Ayyy abusing this to have reqs earlier than I would.

reqs

shoutouts to whitephoenixace2 for leaving a match

I honestly didn't find games that hard to find, despite what other people have been saying. They take a couple minutes usually but not like ten or w/e, so it's not hard to get a good number of games in in a row.

Anyway. About espeed.

I'm having a really tough time deciding on this one tbh. I think I'm going to wait and play a bit more without being trying to get reqs before I vote.
Although this meta really shouldn't sway me either way.

This goes in a hide because it's not really relevant to how I voted will vote. Also I typed it first cuz it was the fun part.



Birds (or genies or giant dragonflies) are incredibly strong in this metagame. Thundurus, Aerodatyl, and possibly Pidgeot strike me as potentially banworthy.

Thundurus has 0 reliable switchins between AoA sets, Z-Focus Blast, and Taunt, and it is much more difficult to revenge without espeed. I've heard someone say that Oblivion Wing is the real problem here and I suppose that is possible. This would also nerf the sudden insurgence of Yanmega. However it wouldnt do anything about AoA sets which are, imo, nearly as strong, although not nearly as popular, and honestly I'm not sure it would change much besides it being easier to chip.

Aerodactyl has an absurd speed tier and amazing power and coverage. It has switchins (King's Shield Steela, Hippowdon / Zygarde) but they are extremely limited and counterplay to it is really difficult, as most things rely on revenge killing it or heavy prediction, and Aero usually plays as a revenge killer / wallbreaker which often pairs with slow pivoting to bring it in safetly. This was broken before espeed went away.

Pidgeot is annoying af. IMHO this is the best set:

Pidgeot-Mega @ Pidgeotite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sing
- Boomburst / Hurricane
- U-turn
- Heat Wave

Running Dual STAB is kinda pointless, you don't actually hit much you wouldn't anyway. Boomburst has more power, hits through subs, and can hit Thundurus and Rotom, while Hurricane has confusehax, hits Ghosts (fuk u Chandelure), and has overall better super-effective coverage (AKA any). Sing + U-Turn is a deadly combo. You sing their check as they switch in then U-Turn out to something like Terrakion which can pressure common Pidg switchins and force them out, giving you free damage and momentum. The best part is if you keep U-Turning every time they bring in that Pidg check they don't get to recover, and eventually it will be weak enough for Pidg or another Pokemon to KO (is that how voltturn cores work? Yes, yes it is) but at the same time they can't burn sleep turns because you keep forcing them out with your wallbreaker of choice. I ran Pidg/Terrak/Yanmega and although the rest of the team was p bad that core rocked at chipping Ttar and Chansey for Yanmega sweeps.

Yanmega might not broken, but it's an incredibly effective sweeper post-espeed. Fortunately the omnipresent Tyranitar managed to stop it pretty reliably when i was running it early in my run (sand = no sash). The fact that it pretty much demands an Accelerock user (+6 252+ SpA Yanmega Oblivion Wing vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 336-396 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO) and isn't really possible to outspeed makes it verge on broken, but I've found that preventing it from setting up can be sufficient. Shoutout volcanionisgood for hyping Yanmega and turning me onto it.

NON-BIRDS!

Literally every espeeder except Lopunny seems awful now, but Lopunny is still really fking good. 135 speed is insane, it resists the common Accelerock and doesn't need to worry about Fake Out nearly as much. Also people are less over-prepared for Normal types.

Lopunny-Mega @ Lopunnite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Head Charge / Return
- High Jump Kick
- Ice Punch / Quick Attack / Encore
 
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drampa's grandpa

cannonball
is a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
In regards to the Pokémon that are being discussed here in STABmons I wanted to comment on my point of view towards them as well:

Porygon-Z: This bad boy is absolutely busted. Adaptability Boomburst with either Specs or (if you wanna be an absolute madman) Nasty Plot with Normalium is disgusting.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 328-386 (46.7 - 54.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 622-732 (88.6 - 104.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (OHKOing a Chansey with a Special Attack is ridiculous even if it's a Z-Move)
I'd vote for a quickban on this bad boy.

Mega Lopunny: Even though it is indeed a really strong Pokémon, I don't think it should be banned. One Pokémon that can cripple Lopunny really bad is Beak Blast Lando-T. One Lando I've used to get the reqs for the ESpeed suspect test that I think really deals with Lopunny is a Sash one
Landorus-Therian @ Focus Sash
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Beak Blast
- Precipice Blades
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
Beak Blast on the Ice Punch, Lopunny is gone and you can still get a last ditch effort Intimidate (Landorus is not a main asset on my team so I don't usually need it unless my team matchup against my opponent proves me the opposite). I know it's not the best Landorus set here in STABmons (I don't like the Shore Up defensive Lando one even though I do know it's really good). In conclusion, I honestly don't think Lopunny should be banned.

D I G G E R S B Y T H O ?: Everyone's favorite fat bunny and Sky Williams's favorite Pokémon. Diggersby has shown that it's a pretty powerful Pokémon with Huge Power + SD + ESpeed + Precipice Blades and more. However, my opinion towards Diggersby is the exact same as Lopunny (TL;DR: It's powerful, but it's definietly not busted). I don't think Diggersby should be straight up banned, however, a suspect test wouldn't be bad on it.

Rotom: Without a doubt the most versatile Pokémon in STABmons, Rotom is definietly a staple if you want to glue that defensive backbone or if you want a bulky special attacker. I honestly think that it's really good... but doesn't deserve the boot.
Rotom is good, but it's not busted and definietly can be dealt with. I can't mention any true counters at the top of my head, but I think that Toxic Chansey can be one because, since it's Chansey, it doesn't take damage from special attacks (PZ is another story). Not sure if this comparison is valid, but I would compare Rotom in STABmons with Landorus-T in OU in this sense: It has ten millon viable sets and the Pokémon can do ten million things, but it is definietly manageable and it's not broken in the meta. So, no ban or no suspect test for Rotom imo

Spore: For the ESpeed suspect test ladder I've played 40 games atm (here's a screenshot of the alt I used) and I never really had a problem with Spore. You have good grass types like Tapu Bulu, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur to absorb them, status "absorbers" like Chansey and Misty Terrain to work with it. Heck, the Rotom I have on my team doesn't even have Spore. I think it should neither be banned nor suspected because it's not that broken.
Those are neither the things being suspected nor do you fulfill the reqs to vote in the current suspect (which is on Extreme Speed, and which you need 75% gxe in 30+ games to vote on.)

As Tzop said out of those things pz and spore were banned, while the espeed suspect is a partially a result of the diggers/lop discussion.
 
Those are neither the things being suspected nor do you fulfill the reqs to vote in the current suspect (which is on Extreme Speed, and which you need 75% gxe in 30+ games to vote on.)

As Tzop said out of those things pz and spore were banned, while the espeed suspect is a partially a result of the diggers/lop discussion.
Oh. Didn't notice the gxe before I started to get the reqs lol
My bad
 

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