Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Hey y'all, full survey results will be released soon, but recently following the survey's results and an internal council vote, we've decided it'd be a disservice if we didn't give Scizor a shot in the frying pan.
Those in favor of a Scizor ban generally fall into one of two camps. The first think that its combination of set versatility (Choice Band, bulky SD, three attacks, HO SD, etc), longevity with its great defensive typing and rRoost, and potential to close out games with SDBPBPBP makes it fundamentally broken and too strong for the tier, even in a vacuum. While there are several strong checks to certain Scizor sets in the tier, many of them are either exploitable through weakness to hazards or susceptible to being caught off guard by a different Scizor set (including off-meta Swords Dance picks like Bug Bite, Superpower, Dual Wingbeat, or U-turn). The other group may not find Scizor to be as inherently oppressive, but believe that it constrains team-building by necessitating multiple checks, very specific sets and item choices, and limiting the ability to adequately check other threats because it has such a centralizing presence in the builder. While other top offensive threats also require careful consideration while crafting a team, Scizor’s unique combination of defensive and offensive traits make it harder to cheese through and often requires specific targeted building to check.
With that said, there are still many, many checks to Scizor. Salamence is as good as ever and obliterates Scizor with a brutal Flamethrower, completely walling anything Scizor can do; Cobalion is in its greatest position possibly ever and doesn't care for Scizor one bit most of the time. Celesteela, Thundurus-T, Skarmory, Azelf, Hydreigon, Keldeo, Moltres, Noivern, both Nidos, Galarian Slowbro and more all carry moves that absolutely destroy Scizor, and they were running them regardless of the bug's presence in the tier; many argue that this makes it so Scizor isn't actually an extra significant strain on teambuilding. On top of that, denying Scizor from progressing is not a huge challenge; it needs significant hazard support to break through much of anything, and even then it revolves around getting a lot of turns right. Combine that with the fact that it actually creates a lot of defensive holes in a team by virtue of being a Steel-type that doesn't resist Rock or Flying, and you end up with a Pokemon that many consider broken that ends up flopping into a lot of matchups, and frequently being passed up in favour of other Pokemon that can do a similar job more reliably.
So, here we are. We leave this in your hands - should Scizor's presence remain in the tier or not?
The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.
GXE
minimum games
80
50
80.2
49
80.4
48
80.6
47
80.8
46
81
45
81.2
44
81.4
43
81.6
42
81.8
41
82
40
82.2
39
82.4
38
82.6
37
82.8
36
83
35
83.2
34
83.4
33
83.6
32
83.8
31
84
30
Other than that, the test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UU12S (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UU12S Lily to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.
Participants will have until Sunday, July 31st at 7:00 PM GMT -4 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. PLEASE DO NOT POST YOUR CONFIRMED SUSPECT RESULTS HERE - there is a dedicated thread for identifying your suspect results. Happy laddering!
Scizor isn’t broken nor is it harder the account for than other top threats like Primarina, Cobalion, and Keldeo. If it were broken, we’d see many instances of it breaking teams after a Swords Dance like how Aegislash would after Substitute/Swords Dance, or G-Moltres after an Agility.
But…we don’t. At least, not in any frequency that screams “BAN ME PLEASE.” It undoubtedly ends up on winscreens, but no more often than the aforementioned top Pokemon. This will be the most virginous thing I’ve done in a while, but here’s an analysis of how Scizor performed in every UUSD game:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-635927 - 3 attacks Scizor clicks 7 moves in 67 turns. It Knocks off Hippo/Tang’s item and that’s it. Hydreigon steals the show this game, while Scizor’s role is just chipping for a while.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-635980 - 3 attacks Scizor makes good progress this game, removing a lot of items (notably Celesteela). A closer inspection shows that Scizor was only able to do this much damage after Conk lures Salamence AND Slowking burned Hippowdon AND CC Zarude lured Cobalion. Scizor was indeed useful, but the distinction between useful and broken is crucial to make.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-635900 - SD Knock Scizor removes a couple items and dies before claiming a single kill. It’s held in check by Hydreigon + Cobalion. The latter being a stupidly common and strong check, and it even outshines Scizor by picking apart chlo’s team.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-636669 - A Scizor mirror. Xujing’s Scizor merely knocks a Drill before being walled by Salamence and sacked to Conk. Misa’s 3 attacks Sciz knocks a Skarmory and cleans a <20% Zarude and Salazzle. Another useful but clearly not broken game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-636907 - 115 turn game. Umbry’s Scizor doesn’t attack until turn 67. By then, Expulso’s team is Toxiced, Burned, and chipped. Amoonguss still keeps SD U-Turn in check, but his outs are so low that anything really cleans him.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-636912 - 46 turn Scizor mirror. Lyss’ Scizor Knocks the opposing Scizor’s item and dies later on. Passion’s Scizor doesn’t do much either besides force Lyss’ out. Even then, there was a Mandibuzz, Keldeo, and Glowbro to stop it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-637895 - SD Scizor on the winscreen. But did it win on its own, or influence the game so much on its own to be deemed broken? Maybe. There was a 50/50 at the end Misa needed to get right to sweep. She also required Cobalion’s KO with Skarmory if she wanted to ever break it. Glowbro and Rotom also had to die. I think this was just a well played game by both sides, and don’t think Scizor tilted the scales heavily in Misa’s favor.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-637472 - Here we see one of the off-meta sets mentioned in the OP: SD LO with Bug Bite. What does it do? Chip Mandibuzz and Slowking. If Bulu was not flinched by Gyarados, Scizor would have lost once again (granted it did get Burned, but it was beneficial in letting Gyara get the DD off for free)
You can obviously find examples of SD Sciz dominating a game - I will never argue against that. But the objective truth is that it is not broken. It’s just not winning enough games at a high enough frequency.
Then there’s the argument of it being too restrictive in the builder. This is also a dubious point. The OP outlines a comprehensive list of checks, and more importantly, really good Pokemon. Cobalion and Salamence are top tier in their own right. It’s not hard to fit one on a team. Then there’s the large amount of softer checks and Pokémon whose viability is tied to its presence (like Rotom-H). Nothing screams “I’m so niche that I only exist for Scizor,” like Palossand did for Terrakion.
I lastly want to address the mindset of there being “too many threats” to account for, so let’s just ban one and see what happens. Not only is this entirely against how we tier on this site, but it’s also unprovable. We don’t know if the meta will improve after a ban, and anyone claiming otherwise can not argue this in good faith. Removing a Pokémon has two negative consequences: we no longer have access to a tool in the builder, and we indirectly buff many Pokémon. If Scizor goes, we lose a Steel-type with recovery, Knock Off, and most importantly, priority in a damn slow tier. Not only that, other threats will get better, and to what extent is unknown (see Cobalion’s recent meteoric rise after Aegi went). I ask those who currently think we need to ban a threat for the sake of it to please reconsider.
I will be very easily be voting no ban myself. Save the bug
OMG, venu wrote another post on his phone about a kids game? no way!!!
This is just unedited but w/e
I think at this point I'm voting DNB. Sciz is great and offers a lot of utility but it also has a lot holding it back. It's basically pigeonholed into either BP/knock/roost/SD or U-turn, unless you're on hyper offense. While you theoretically can replace knock, it's really uncommon; knock brings a lot of utility and can punish flying switchins that otherwise destroy it. Things like superpower/bug bite/dwb are usually, I'd argue, worse? Dwb is admittedly a 120 bp flying move in a tier with 2 true steels, and superpower can lure in coba, but is almost strictly worse otherwise, and no other steel actually is weak fighting in this tier; also you hard lose to any flying in this tier. Bug bite helps break darks and grasses, which you beat anyways except for Mandi, which it doesn't help you against. Also bug is a bad offensive type in general. Knock gives you the option to punish non- skarm flyings, which is huge, and I don't think you should ever be running any of its coverage over it.
Scizor also is forced into running defensive spreads most of the time to make use of its defensive typing, limiting it's offensive power as a sweeper. As well, steel is a bad offensive type, despite technician stab priority being really good. It's stopped by waters, steels, and electrics, which are all really good in this tier. Flyings commonly pack fire coverage, as well as almost every fairy in the tier.
While it's sd set is able to set up on walls, it gets hard walled by coba (who I'd say is almost on the same level as scizor) and skarm, gets offensively pressured by waters and electrics, is burn weak, and has a really bad speed tier outside of its priority, can't come in on shroom or tang without either losing its item (which isn't awful for scizor) or getting sleeped (unless you run goggles), which isn't shaving amazing for a mon with a typing that should nullify grasses. As well, it's awful speed means zarude isn't a safe switch at all at lower health thanks to its dark typing.
At this point, I think sciz is DNB, but I want to highlight a few elements I can see people looking at as problematic. It's ability to couple reliable recovery with boosting, as well as it's great defensive type and priority, is obviously very good for setting up. It's knock access means even molt, a mon that should destroy sciz, gets crippled coming into a knock off, and no flying other than skarm appreciates that. It's pivot set can also punish it's steel walls by simply pivoting out in them with U-turn, and while I don't really consider that broken (zarude exists) I can see others potentially using that in an argument.
I'm very interested to see others opinions on scizor right now, especially ban votes, and why sciz is busted in their eyes.
Set versatility makes Scizor broken
I feel that this is the strongest argument in favor, but is flawed. As seen in the table below, many of Scizor's answers overlap, making it significantly easier to fit answers to Scizor on teams. Also, please note that the sets I've used in these calculations are from the analysis, and are not the ones I personally use. Common sets
*Doesn't want to take Knock Off upon switch-in, but it can and still beat Scizor. As a result of this, they should probably be paired with another Scizor answer.
As displayed above, many of Scizor's answers to its sets overlap with one another, and many are considered to be good Pokémon, if not amazing ones that are somewhat easy to slap on teams. This is clear because I only listed Pokémon from S to B that are able to answer Scizor. Scizor constrains building to an unhealthy degree
I also disagree with this. As shown in the table above, Scizor has more than enough answers among the top Pokémon in UU (with 2/3 of the top Pokémon in UnderUsed outright beating it). Scizor is a top threat that requires multiple answers, yes. However, is this not the case with most top threats? Like Adaam said in their post, we aren't being forced to run unviable Pokémon like Palossand (Terrakion) and Diancie (Moltres-Galar) in order to have a consistent answer to Scizor.
Based on this, I stand firmly in the do not ban camp.
Being one of the most vocal Scizor ban supporters in the Discord, I'd be remiss to not put my thoughts in here as for why the bug should go. Lily made a good distinction between reasons why people think Scizor should go, and I definitely fall into the camp of Scizor being a negative presence in the teambuilder as the reason for banning it. What I'm going to do for this post is try to illustrate the effect Scizor has in the builder by showing the building process for a team I made, and then showing how Scizor's impact restricts the building process. I believe this team to be robust and good in the current metagame, but I am using my own teambuilding principles, so there will inevitably be disagreement here in how satisfactory certain Pokemon are in checking others. I hope it will be enough for people to still understand my point.
Teambuilding Attempt: Choice Specs Hydreigon Bulky Offense
Choice Specs Hydreigon is an amazing breaker right now with an excellent set of resists, notably being amazing into both Rotom formes. It scares the daylights out of Slowking, a common bulky anchor to many teams, and noticeably dents even Dark resists. It does have several hard stops in Pokemon like Primarina and Chansey though, so some support is needed. It's also not going to blow by offensive Pokemon like Zygarde-10% and even Cobalion due to its only decent Speed, so it will need some support there too. A great partner would therefore be...
Assault Vest Tangrowth provides Hydreigon with a great Primarina switch, and can Knock Off Chansey to make Hydreigon's attacks sting a lot more. It's also capable of checking Cobalion, Keldeo, Thundurus-T, Zygarde-10%, and other fast offensive Pokemon, which Hydreigon greatly appreciates.
At this point, a few things are in the back of my mind. #1 is Speed control. Since I am not using Choice Scarf Hydreigon here, I am going to need to either use one of the few other viable Scarfers, or a base 115+ Speed Pokemon. #2 is additional ways to break Chansey, since Knock Off from Tangrowth alone is not enough. #3 is a Stealth Rocker. I tend to fill this in last, since it ends up overlapping with other roles. #4 is a Rocky Helmet user / Scizor answer, which can be #3 and #2 as well. I am not using Amoonguss here, so my Helmet users / Scizor answers could be Skarmory, Hippowdon, or Cobalion.
I am going to pause at this point. Already, I am limited to putting one of 3 Pokemon on my team because of Scizor. One of these (Hippowdon) is not even an answer to Bulky SD Scizor unless it runs Whirlwind, in which case it still doesn't beat it, but can at least help other teammates deal with it. So that brings me down to 2. Am I running a Spikes team here? The answer is almost certainly no, because I have Tangrowth, which means I do not have Dhelmise, and thus cannot spinblock effectively. So unless I am running Stealth Rock Skarmory (which, to be fair, I haven't really tried, but has been known to be pretty terrible in past metas), I am now FORCED into using Cobalion if I want a reliable Scizor answer, after adding only 2 Pokemon! As other people have pointed out, you can view this as not being a bad thing - Cobalion is excellent in the current metagame, and possibly the best Pokemon in the tier. However, you must see that this is incredibly restrictive. Cobalion fits on Bulky Offense and Balance styles, which do have some variety, but by using Cobalion, you are constrained into using Pokemon that work well with Cobalion.
You might be telling me to stop at this point and say that I don't have to pack a hard counter to Scizor on every team. You might want to say that there are plenty of Pokemon that naturally soft or even hard check Scizor, and you would be right - Scizor's low Speed makes it vulnerable to attacks from a lot of Pokemon, and this means it is checked by a lot. It fears Scald burns, has to run Safety Goggles to beat Amoonguss, can't always fit every move it wants, and can be difficult to switch in. So why can't you just run multiple soft or even hard checks to Scizor and be OK? The answer is Knock Off. Knock Off cripples every single Scizor answer, from its soft checks like Primarina, to hard checks like Salamence, to even counters like Skarmory. Every answer to Scizor is made unreliable in the long term (yes, even Cobalion when facing certain styles, namely stall) because of Scizor's access to or teammates' usage of Knock Off, and an unreliable Scizor check is exploitable. Salamence is forced to take Stealth Rock hits. Primarina loses its recovery, making it much easier to wear down and ruining steup sets. Amoonguss no longer punishes U-Turns. The list goes on, but you get the point. The other major factor is that most checks (i.e. not counters) to Scizor can be beaten by Scizor itself if it is allowed to set up multiple Swords Dances, especially if they have been Knocked Off.
I am making several assumptions here, so let me address each of them:
You can't build a (good) team that is reliable against Scizor without Skarmory or Cobalion.
Whether you believe this is ultimately dependent on how you feel about point #4 below, so I'll direct your attention there.
You can only use Skarmory on Spikes teams.
As stated above, Skarmory could be used to run Stealth Rocks if it really needed to, but we haven't seen this yet to my knowledge. Skarmory also depends on Spikes to be able to make progress in the face of Pokemon that threaten it or that it can't hurt much, such as Moltres and Amoonguss, respectively. Therefore, as far as we know right now, Skarmory fits on only Spikes teams, since it will always be running Spikes itself. This is not to say that there are not variations in Spikes teams, as we've seen things like Noivern being less conventional but still effective Spikes teammates, but these teams will always have Skarmory (Roserade is unfortunately terrible right now).
You must run Dhelmise on Spikes teams.
As above, this is not 100% true, but it is very difficult not to run Dhelmise on Spikes teams, because it compresses several amazing traits that nothing else does. Most importantly, it spinblocks and resists Zygarde-10%'s Thousand Arrows - these in combination are extremely unique, and cannot be supplemented by the other Grasses. If you choose not to run Dhelmise on a Spikes team, you are forced into running another resist to Thousand Arrows, which leaves you either vulnerable to Zygarde's coverage moves if you use Zarude, heavily pressured by opposing hazards if you use Tangrowth, or only being neutral to Thousand Arrows AND being pressured by hazards. Mandibuzz and Hippowdon are possible solutions you might suggest, but Mandibuzz is worn down by repeated hits, and Hippowdon is hit by hazards and is forced into recovering often. So, Dhelmise is usually the best choice.
Knock Off is so detrimental to Scizor's soft checks that they will not be able to effectively check Scizor throughout a game once they have been Knocked Off.
This is the hardest question to answer and I think for many people will define how they feel about Scizor in the tier. If you feel that you can reliably deal with Scizor without using Cobalion or Skarmory on every team, you're probably OK with Scizor being here. If you don't, you're probably like me and think it's a negative presence in the builder and needs to go. To answer this question, I'm going to take a look at some replays from recent UUSD games. Before getting into this though, I will say to keep in mind that many teams DID have a Skarmory or Cobalion, so this question doesn't apply to those games (but points in the direction that others feel you do need Skarmory or Cobalion to reliably check Scizor). In terms of the numbers, Cobalion was present on 29.17% of teams in Week 1 of UUSD and 36.36% of teams in Week 2, while Skarmory was present on 16.67% of teams in Week 1 and 13.64% of teams in Week 2, meaning that a Scizor counter was present on 45.84% of teams in Week 1 and 50% of teams in Week 2!For me, these statistics are staggering, and they alone present a very strong argument for Scizor's influence on the builder, but we'll look at the games where Scizor did not face a counter anyway.
UUSD Week 3: Passion vs. Chaos
In this game, Scizor is slept and proceeds to do nothing. Fair enough. However, Passion's team was quite vulnerable to Scizor otherwise, not packing Skarmory or Cobalion, and having frail offensive checks that either can be worn down by Scizor or its teammates. Chaos arguably could have also taken the Spore with another Pokemon (or just switched their own Amoonguss into it) to allow Scizor to remain much more of a threat.
UUSD Week 3: Adaam vs. KM
In this one, KM is using a Hyper Offense Scizor vs. Adaam's balance/bulky offense Scizor. Adaam notably has a Suicune, which is about as good of a Scizor counter outside of Cobalion and Skarmory as one could ask for, and indeed does effectively check Scizor here. Adaam is unfortunately the victim of a flinch from Ice Fang Gyarados here, costing him the game, but I would argue that a Bounce Gyarados would have finished the game off anyways. Here, Scizor takes a different approach on KM's team in acting as a wallbreaker/sweeper on HO, and is notably able to force one of its sturdier soft check in Foul Play Mandibuzz out due to its bulk and power, forcing Suicune to come in and be chipped into range to be finished off. Adaam's own Scizor doesn't actually do anything here, being plowed through by HO. This brings us to one solution against Scizor - why not just use HO and avoid all this having to put Cobalion or Skarmory on a team? I actually talked about this a while ago, way back when Galarian Moltres was being suspected (post here). The short of it is that this leads to a dominance in extreme styles in a metagame (i.e. stall and HO) to avoid dealing with most threats entirely, and in my opinion leads to a very unhealthy metagame that we should avoid. So, we should not be trying to solve the Scizor problem by saying "just use HO".
UUSD Week 1: Amane Misa vs. TJ and UUSD Week 1: Expulso vs. Sage
I'm grouping these two together because their solution to Scizor is the same: ignore the problem of checking it long-term by using weather-based offense. These both go back to the point I made above concerning the Adaam vs. KM game. Funnily enough, Misa's Sun team even packs a Skarmory to be extra safe against Scizor, despite the entire point of the style being overwhelming the other team with abusers of Fire-type moves under Sun.
UUSD Week 1: Raptor vs. Xujing
In this game, Raptor's best Scizor check is defensive Salamence. Xujing manages to win the game despite Scizor never even landing a Knock Off on Salamence. Scizor's role here was to Knock Off most of the other team so that its teammates could exert pressure, and it performed well, even surviving to the end of the game.
UUSD Week 2: Amane Misa vs. Xujing
I don't even know what to say about this one. Both teams used Scizor, and the one WITH the hard Scizor counter in Skarmory was still worn down over time and lost, with Scizor surviving until the end of the game! I suppose you can argue in favour of Salamence being enough of a check to Scizor based on this game...or you could argue that Scizor is even able to beat its hardest counters over time (and indeed, Scizor Knocking Off Skarmory and it being forced to come in repeatedly to check Scizor and take Stealth Rock damage is what leads to Skarmory being KO'd, with Scizor cleaning up the game at the end).
UUSD Week 2: udongirl vs. Evigaro
udongirl's Scizor did not do much at all in this game, so this is one of the stronger cases for Scizor being able to be reliably checked with Pokemon other than Cobalion and Skarmory. Scizor was interestingly taken out by Conkeldurr here, which does not resist Bullet Punch, but does resist both U-Turn and Knock Off, while having decent physical bulk and priority of its own - perhaps an avenue to explore for checking Scizor on more teams should it end up staying in the tier (Bulk Up?).
UUSD Week 2: Expulso vs. Umbry
Expluso's team only has soft Scizor checks here vs. Umbry's Scizor. While Umbry's Scizor is slept by Expulos's Amoonguss at one point in the game, the Scizor is able to burn sleep turns later and wake up vs. Expulso's Rotom-Wash. Scizor stays alive for most of the rest of the game, keeping itself healthy with Roost, pivoting with U-Turn, and checking Pokemon with SD + BP and U-Turn. While it is KO'd near the end of the game, Umbry's team is able to win. Notable in this game is the fact that Umbry's Scizor doesn't even have Knock Off, and yet is able to maintain a presence throughout the game and stay alive for a long time with Roost, keeping Expulso's Tornadus in check.
UUSD Week 2: passion vs. Lyss
This is actually a team I built for passion that does not feature Cobalion or Skarmory, and yet manages to win vs. a Scizor. That being said, this team packs a Scizor of its own, and Lyss' team features a Salamence and a Hippowdon (but no Skarmory or Cobalion). Take this one as you will - neither side has a Scizor counter, but both have a Scizor of their own, so inevitably a Scizor team was winning against a team without a Scizor counter either way here.
Having to use a Scizor counter on every team is a bad thing.
This is subjective and will depend on how you feel about Pokemon centralizing the metagames they find themselves in. A certain degree of centralization is a good thing - without it, metagames would be unpredictably chaotic and matchup influence would be incredibly high. However, I feel that currently, the limitations imposed by Scizor on building (i.e. most teams, outside of extreme styles, must pack a Scizor counter to be reliable against it) are too extreme and detract from the creativity that metagames should allow in building teams that succeed consistently within them.
Apologies for the huge break in the middle of the building process. I felt it was needed to get some really important points out there, and these really are the concerns that come up when I build. TBH, I don't know that really including the rest of the building process is necessary because my point has been made here, but I will include it for the sake of showing that the team is of (in my opinion) high quality and that this wall of text has not been to prove that a poorly-built team cannot handle Scizor or any other metagame threat.
Cobalion is the next Pokemon, for all of the role compression and important Scizor-countering qualities I mentioned above. It sets Stealth Rocks. It pressures Chansey. It counters Scizor. It switches into U-Turns. It's a Hatterene check. It has an excellent Speed tier and great physical bulk. Honestly, it is very hard not to use Cobalion right now (this is a product of Scizor being in the metagame, among other things, but mostly Scizor).
I need a Fire check, and Slowking is the best one. Regenerator keeps it alive forever, it checks opposing Cobalion amazingly, it is one of the best answers to a widely-complained about Pokemon in Autotomize Meteor Beam Celesteela (again a product of Scizor's presence) when Slowking uses Thunder Wave), and it gets offensive threats like the Choice Specs Hydreigon on this team in easily. Slowking also takes pressure off Tangrowth in dealing with Keldeo, and is the team's Mamoswine answer.
Assault Vest Tangrowth is amazing, and one of the best checks to Thundurus-T, but it can still be worn down over time, and this team needs a Ground-type to block Volt Switches. It also needs an answer to DD Salamence, and would like some additional offensive pressure and Speed control. Mamoswine checks all of these boxes, and generally provides great insurance against anything as an emergency check with Life Orb-boosted Ice Shard.
The final member. This team needs something for Conkeldurr, since Slowking is not running Psychic. It also wants hazard removal, and some form of natural Speed control. Another Zarude switch-in would be great, too. Crobat fits here, and starts games off strong by providing a pivoting option that outspeeds the base 115 Pokemon.
So, that's the team. It's good, it's consistent, but still has flaws - it's not good into stall, can struggle vs. Gyarados, and doesn't like Tentacruel, among other things. However, the team is forced to use Cobalion here, and that is the point I am trying to make. Skarmory does not fit, as the team would lose to Hatterene otherwise. Any other Stealth Rock user is vulnerable to being worn down by Scizor. Thus, the issue, and again, why I think we need to vote ban on Scizor.
This post has gone on for a LONG time. Thank you, genuinely, if you read all this. The quality dropped a little toward the end, but I've been working on it for a few days and I'm tired LOL. I may go back and fix things. I really do hope this articulates my view on why Scizor has to go, though, and I hope as well that I'm able to change some minds with the evidence I've presented here. Cel out.
I am a firm no ban voter (justgotreqs) so I'd like to agree with what Adaam said and compliment Aqua on cool visually based post which I appreciate.
I'm going to respond to Celebiii because it is a ban post and is well written, and then give my own general thoughts on the suspect. I like how you choose a team building based post when talking about Scizor. Very unique way to make an argument.
To just make one point right off the bat:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Primarina Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 181-214 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Specs Primarina is rocking your shit. Unless you have a Chansey, the mon is going IN with rocks up, and you have a Slowking and a Hydreigon which let it in for free. Not to mention, the only thing that OHKO's it from full is Mamoswine, and only if it's Life Orb; if not, bye bye. So like, look how extremely strong Primarina is and were not banning it. It also has great set versatility and lots of usage. Your team also loses to SD 3 attacks Cobalion at +2, and all you have to punish it is a Cobalion speed tie, maybe getting it low enough to where Crobat kills, or dodging a Mega Horn. Cobalion has more usage in UU Invitational that Scizor and every other Pokemon. It has become such a threat and frankly just as centralizing as Scizor. People benefit more from checking Scizor than they do from using it! Scizor really isn't as broken as you think, and by having this mentality that you have to check the shit out of it, you're permitting weaknesses to other big strong meta Pokemon.
Scizor and Aegislash can be compared in some regard when talking about brokenness. Obviously, two very strong Steel-types that can use a fair amount of sets. But here's where Aegislash becomes so much more broken. Yeah Scizor has set versatility but it has no special attack and HP Fire doesn't exist anymore so it's always using physical moves. The issue with Aegislash is it could be physical, special, or mixed; making it so much more of a threat.
Scizor is really just restricted to Heavy Duty Boots, Safety Goggles, Rocky Helmet, or Protective Pads which are all inherently defensive items and therefore its offensive potential this generation is stunted. Choice Band is a set that sees some usage, but Scizor is mostly used for its bulk. There are no Z-moves to add to Scizors onslaught of sets. Scizor is far less scary of a Pokemon than it was in SM.
Aqua Jet talks about Scizor sets and their respective checks and counters. The thing about checking Scizor is you straight up just need a Fire move that Scizor can't scout like Aegi could (and Aegi could eat them). Rocky Helmet is a really easy way to fuck with Scizor and Pokemon like Cobalion and Skarmory do that well but also are amazing Pokemon even outside of a Scizor matchup. I'm pretty sure Cobalion rose to UU before Scizor was unbanned and Skarmory has been a highly ranked Pokemon for a long time now. Unlike Aegislash and Moltres-galar, there really aren't any wack ass unsets that have been invented to counter Scizor. It really doesn't need that much attention and there's another reason it just isn't broken.
I tend to ramble in these and lose track of what I say, so sorry for that. Ultimately I just feel that Scizor has less potential to threaten teams this generation than it did last, is awfully tame compared to other Pokemon we've banned, has seen a dim amount of usage in high level tournaments (citing UU Invitational). Scizor also benefits this tier a ton by being able to check threats like Zygarde-10% if defensive, Thundy-T if it's not running Incinerate, it makes Tang, Amoonguss and Zarude a whole lot less annoying as the tiers staple Grasses, it's one more thing that can break Slowking which is so common, it's helped hyper offense stay balanced as it has insane RKO abilities with Bullet Punch.
Scizor is a cool mon that benefits the tier way more than it hurts it. And if the community chooses to ban it, I think we will find a lot of issues before the new gen comes out and we will be in danger of having a tier that's just not fun to play. Adaam does a great job of cataloguing a lot of games where Scizor just does nothing. Compare that to the Aegislash suspect where people pulled replays of Aegislash doing so much more than you would think it could do at team preview.
Please don't ban this Pokemon. Suspecting it is fine but banning it would be the biggest mistake this tier has made. Stop the vendetta against Scizor birthed in SM. Let it be, let it live, let it stay.
I don't usually post a lot on Smogon, but this suspect test really pisses me off. Such a waste of time !
Basically, just read what both Adaam and Drew said. They said everything you have to know.
I'm going to quote an important part from Drew :
"I tend to ramble in these and lose track of what I say, so sorry for that. Ultimately I just feel that Scizor has less potential to threaten teams this generation than it did last, is awfully tame compared to other Pokemon we've banned, has seen a dim amount of usage in high level tournaments (citing UU Invitational). Scizor also benefits this tier a ton by being able to check threats like Zygarde-10% if defensive, Thundy-T if it's not running Incinerate, it makes Tang, Amoonguss and Zarude a whole lot less annoying as the tiers staple Grasses, it's one more thing that can break Slowking which is so common, it's helped hyper offense stay balanced as it has insane RKO abilities with Bullet Punch."
About grass types :
As already explained, alongside Cobalion, Amoonguss and Tangrowth are everywhere because of how vital having a grass that check Keldeo, non spec primarinas, Zygarde, etc, is. We need those grasses. But if they are everywhere, you basically have to switch on them, and..... It's not like it's something you really want to take.
Sludge bomb//knocks from both is so annoying to switch onto when you're not a poison or a steel.
> Most poisons don't like getting spore//taking a Seed Bomb//Power whip (Nihilego), or knocked (Crobat, Tentacruel)
> Steels types haaaate getting knocked (Celesteela, Jirachi) or Focus Blasted (Cobalion)
So how do I switch onto those ? Scizor and Slowbro Galar are the two best grass switch in right now because they really don't care about those bulky grasses. In many team structures, you even end up with double steels, because scizor free your other steel type to do more offensive stuff (mostly thinking about SD 3 attacks coba that doesnt want to lose its item for instance).
About breaking Fat and helping against HO
Yall really want to ban a mon that helps a lot in long games with its pivoting ability ?
You want to ban a mon that can switch on Chansey comfortably, threaten it with a knock, or get momentum out of it ?
Also, it's not like we have many priorities in the tier. Conk mach punch, Zyg E speed, Mamo Ice shard, Azu Aqua Jet and Scizor BP right ?
(You can also count rarer ones like crawdaunt aqua jet, lycanrock accelerock and digg quick attack)
Priority moves are so important and I'm saying that as someone who loves spamming dumb HO on ladder.
How many times I was like "If I kill the scizor, my dumb Cloyster//Poltegeist wins the game instantly". Because yes, with a dark lure (random colburr berry mon basically), Polteageist can sweep teams. But Scizor was there to deny it.
Banning Scizor would mean Mamoswine everywhere and I'm very serious. And I'm sure you don't want that (Mamo is sooooo hard to switch into fr)
I probably have many more things to say about how fine Scizor is.
I genuinely believe that banning Scizor would restrict teambuilding more than Scizor's current impact on teambuilding.
It's an obvious Do Not Ban for me, like for real, Aegislash was Arceus next to current Scizor. It was so dumb you could just build a 5 pokemon team and slap Aegislash on it to make it better. That's not the case with Scizor, it is sometimes needed, sometimes not.
As someone who first wanted to ban Scizor before, I've mellowed out since and don't think it's nearly as demanding nor as strenuous to deal with as I thought. If there's anything I learned from playing more is that you don't need to have super solid defensive counterplay, so long as you have something to at least keep said threats out of your face before they become a huge issue.
I think this holds true for Scizor plenty because as good as its defensive profile may look, it doesn't have a lot of benefits from its typing considering it's hit neutrally by a lot of what it's supposed to threaten. It can't come in on Nihilego nor Togekiss without significant investment and even against Pokemon that it can make into setup fodder like Hippowdon, Earthquake damage surprisingly builds up with rocks down (boots aren't the hardest to remove) so forcing a Roost to capitalize on isn't out of the question.
It also doesn't help that we have an influx of strong special attackers that just don't give it any breathing room. Hydreigon, Azelf, and especially those with reliable recovery like Galarian Slowbro and Salamence all run Flamethrower very commonly, and even Hydreigon's Dark Pulse is enough at certain thresholds. Other threats like Keldeo despite not making fantastic use of its resistances, still punishes Scizor for mindless BPing.
I believe I don't really need to elaborate much on how threats like Cobalion or Skarmory just give it the finger, the replays Adaam put up showcased well how there are some matchups where it does nothing of value. As Jet pointed out, a lot of its checks can handle multiple sets and said checks happen to be some of the best around and not hard to fit. Teams with Pokemon like Tangrowth absolutely want to respect it in the builder but doing so isn't often a detriment like the way past brokens Aegislash and Galarian Moltres made it.
Make no mistake, it is still a danger poke that does offer a lot. Despite what I said earlier, EVing for said Pokemon like Zygarde-10 and Togekiss is a notable and useful niche to have around, 3 attacks has been shown to enable certain breakers very efficiently, and it can still get that SDBPBPBPBP clean under the right circumstances. It's still very good but it feels like it has to earn its victories and relies on its teammates a lot for it to be banworthy, voting DNB. if I actually make it through the test
For full disclosure I voted softly in favour of a suspect test for Scizor, despite quite firmly being in the DNB camp. I did this because I felt it'd be a disservice to the wider community if I did not, and I gathered help from others to write the OP of this test to make sure my personal biases weren't getting in the way. So with that said, here's why I don't think Scizor is banworthy. I'll start by addressing the most common ban arguments I've seen.
"Scizor mandates multiple answers in the builder."
This is entirely true but it's also a pretty meaningless statement on its own. Scizor is a top Pokemon; when accounting for any top Pokemon, a single answer just isn't good enough. To give a very black and white example - Skarmory is, of course, the best Excadrill counter in the tier. A well-built Excadrill team will have ways to handle Skarmory as a result, such as Hatterene, Salamence or Magneton. If your method of beating Excadrill relies solely on Skarmory, you're going to lose. We aren't playing 1v1.
This isn't to say you need multiple hard Scizor counters on every team. Obviously that would be an unreasonable team building strain. But you can't just slap Skarmory or Cobalion alongside a host of Pokemon walled by Scizor and get away with it. That's really just asking to lose. Stuff like Primarina, Azelf, Hydreigon etc. - those aren't Scizor counters or even close to it, but they're mons it can't find opportunities on. Limiting it that way is highly effective.
"Scizor's influence makes it too difficult to handle other Pokemon"
I've seen this argument used lately about Pokemon like Keldeo, Cobalion, Primarina and others being too much to handle because Scizor makes their counterplay worse in the metagame. First of all, this is an ethereal concept that can't be proven or disproven, so there isn't a whole lot I can say on it. With that said I don't really agree.
Scizor does restrict teambuilding, that much is true. Its presence does make other Pokemon worse. It also makes other Pokemon better.
Keldeo restricts teambuilding. Its presence makes other Pokemon worse. It also makes other Pokemon better.
Cobalion restricts teambuilding...
Hippowdon restricts teambuilding...
Primarina, Azelf, Diggersby...
This is just the nature of good Pokemon. Seriously. They're going to change their environments. You cannot say "Scizor leaving would make Keldeo more bearable" - it doesn't work like that! We can't predict future metagames as we've seen time and time again. If you want to ban something because it's too much on its own, okay, fair enough. If you want to ban something because it may make something else too strong, idt that's really gonna fly, especially with it being impossible to prove.
"Banning Scizor would free up teambuilding significantly."
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but it really wouldn't. Banning Pokemon makes other Pokemon get better and results in them taking up a taxing slot in your mind when building. If you want a recent example, look at Cobalion - when Aegislash was around, SD Cobalion was borderline unviable. These days it's among the most difficult Pokemon to prepare for in the tier.
I don't remember who used this analogy but I frequently bring it up in discussions like these. Pokemon tiers are like glasses of ice water; the best Pokemon are the cubes at the top, and the worse Pokemon are below them. When you take one ice cube out of the glass, it doesn't just stay stagnant; a new one floats up to take its place, and the structure of the cubes together changes. Banning Scizor won't free up teambuilding, it'll just change the tier to focus on different threats.
"Scizor is broken"
If Scizor was broken we'd see more than three replays in the past 6 months where it actually pulled off a sweep. No more to say on this.
Scizor is not broken, and I don't believe it's restrice to any significant degree compared to much bigger threats (Cobalion, Primarina, Diggersby to name a few). You have to keep it at the forefront of your mind when building - that's because it's good, not because it's broken. We have more than enough checks and counters that are all great mons regardless of Scizor's presence in the tier. This seems like a very easy do not ban vote.
This isn't a ladder tournament so you don't need to post the ladder alt that you intend to ladder with. In fact, I'd respectfully ask that anyone reading this doesn't post their alt because I'm sure there are others like myself who have watched this thread only to find people posting their alts.
This isn't a ladder tournament so you don't need to post the ladder alt that you intend to ladder with. In fact, I'd respectfully ask that anyone reading this doesn't post their alt because I'm sure there are others like myself who have watched this thread only to find people posting their alts.
Looking at this first image, you can see that i got swept by this Scizor. Back then I was firmly pro-ban on Scizor. To be frank, my team was rather bad and wasn't really equipped to take it on. My ways of checking it were Choice Scarf Hydreigon (which was locked into Draco Meteor when it was able to set up) and Taunt Crobat (which I didn't use it quick enough after it got to +2). There is also an Aegislash on my team, which is now banned, and the reason I think Scizor is nowhere near broken right now. Aegislash's ban really helped stabilize the meta to where it is quite enjoyable and teambuilding is much more freed up. Cobalion's rise to stardom absolutely helped with a needed Scizor check, but other than that, there are 2 big reasons why
1. Lack of a presence against offensive teams
Yes, Bulky SD Scizor can run over many teams that have Hippowdon, Tangrowth, and Slowking as the defensive core, but against more bulky offensive builds, it can be a let down. Even with Bullet Punch, it's low power and many resistances in this meta means that it can't really Due to it not beingable to run much Attack, it's not even able to get many frail Pokemon in this meta.
]16+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 80 Def Nihilego: 284-336 (79.1 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
16+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azelf: 121-144 (41.5 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
16+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zygarde-10%: 120-142 (48.1 - 57%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
16+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 112-133 (36.9 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 16+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 217-256 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Many other offensive Pokemon are able to resist Bullet Punch like Celesteela, Keldeo, Autotomize Celesteela, and Thundurus-Therian. Bulky Pokemon are also able to blank it as well like Salamence and Will-O-Wisp Rotom-W. Adaam also listed a bunch of replays to showcase how it is often deadweight most of the time
2. Way too many checks/counters that are easy to fit.
Aqua Jet made a fantastic compendium on what checks Scizor (like his post), and there is a bunch of mons that can naturally check it and are very easy to fit on teams like Choice Scarf Diggersby, Swords Dance Cobalion, and Salamence.
I hope I'll be getting reqs soon, and if i do, I will firmly vote do not ban.
In order to contribute a bit after my shitpost, I’m not exactly surprised how well the meta has evolved in order to combat Scizor, but it is still impressive that there have been tons of good builds that don’t give things up in order to dismantle most (if not all) of its sets.
I was an avid Sciz ban/suspect dude when it dropped, my view has changed though. I believe the proof is in the pudding and Adaam made an excellent post looking at games where it doesn’t really do too much, or at the very least isnt sdbpbpbpbp’ing through high level gamez.
I’m quite rust so take this all with a grain of salt, however I’m in agreement with the big dawgs doing insanely well in this tier. Sciz is fantastic, doesn’t seem too much though. Builds haven’t had to adapt too much etc.
Great call suspecting it though, it’s very clearly still a controversial mon in the tier and hey lets see how the voters see it, and where this takes us. S/o to the great posts here for being a fun read throughout the week
Anyways... It honestly seems that Scizor isn't going to get banned. There is an abundance of non ban posts. So while conversation should still stay around Scizor for the most part, I want to get some peoples opinions on other mons that get complained about.
So like, I don't want to say too much but this Pokemon doesn't have switch ins and is just as--if not more--constraining in the builder than Scizor. Chansey is the only true counter, but at the end of the day only has 16 Soft Boils. Primarina overwhelms teams, and with access to Psychic there really isn't any other switch in unless you're just wildly predicting. The Pokemon has lots of set versatility; a similar amount to Scizor. Aqua identified 3 common Scizor sets, and if you tack on Choice Band that's 4. Primarina runs Choice Specs, Sub CM, Rest CM, full defensive Rest Talk, 3 attacks CM, 3 attacks Protect; so like arguably more variation than Scizor. This mon is crazy good. If we suspected Scizor, this should be on the docket.
Yeah so this monster doesn't real do anything other than be fat. The defensive set alone is so annoying because it's just impossible to break and most teams just resort to stalling out Leech Seeds. But, the main issue is its offensive Autotomize sweeper set. Show me the differences to Goltres.
I mean they legit have the same general bulk. I'm not a mathematician so I can't say which is bulkier but they're both fat as fuck. Steela is slower but stronger, and boosts speed so the speed difference really doesn't matter. It has better flinch potential than Goltres with Air Slash being a full 10% higher. It doesn't have to worry about missing Hurricanes like Goltres. It doesn't need to double dance to boost special attack, its god damn ability does it for it. Access to Flamethrower in a tier dominated by Steels means this Pokemon doesn't have any resists. Also it's typing is way better. Steel > Dark any day. Other than Chansey, counterplay is really not there. There's Nihilego whose usage has tanked since Scizor and Hippowdon, there's Rotom-Wash which has seen increased usage and is a pretty good Pokemon, there's keeping a healthy Raikou, there's Slowking but it's always so heavily pressured and takes on a lot and is another victim of flinching. Help me out on other stuff I'm missing. There's also the fact that so many predictions go into beating Steela if you don't have tried and true counterplay. It can just hold on to Meteor Beam and boost by getting a kill and then you're screwed. There's too many mind games. The Pokemon is too fat to be easily RKO'd by Scizors Bullet Punch and the usage of Mamoswine and Lycanroc has tanked since Scizor. There is Conkeldurr but it sees low usage. Ultimately, like Goltres, Celesteela seems just like an outlier that really doesn't have any large standing in team building other than abusing it's broken qualities.
Conclusion:
Are these Pokemon objectively broken? I lean towards yes, but I'm not too adamantly opinionated on the matter. The question is are they worth banning. I think Steela is the one I would vote ban on. I am just raising some important discussion here. I think that the Scizor suspect is silly goofy but it's valid because enough people think it's broken. I think enough people have called into question these two demons right here. I would like to petition a potential suspect test for one of these after the Scizor suspect ends. Curious to see others thoughts. This was kinda a late night ramble but I think there is substance here. Maybe... Thanks for reading!
I used to be on the side of banning scizor, but after a while of playing the meta I realized that it was not as powerful as it initially was. Scizor has three main sets, those being it’s 3 attack sets, it’s bulky sword dance sets, and it’s offensive swords dance set. None of these sets are broken, and these sets are usually checked by swords dance cobalion or salamence. I took a look at what others have posted, and they have also changed my mind. Scizor is good, don’t get that wrong, but it’s not banworthy. It is not too powerful for the tier, as it does not OHKO or 2HKO most of the meta unboosted, it is definitely not uncompetitive, and it is not unhealthy for the tier, as many teams will naturally have great answers to it such as Salamence. Therefore, if I get reqs, I will be voting Do Not Ban.
Primarina is a really good pokemon but I wouldn't call it busted really. Defensive counterplay is minimal but there's plenty of offensive counterplay since it is quite slow - and things like AV Tang or Slowking can usually scout it so you know the set after one or two scouts. The stuff exists in the tier to handle it.
I'm not gonna harp too much on how I feel abt sciz bc I feel my opinion on the matter is heavily due to my own perspective on pokemon/building in general. I fuckin hate this tier and everything that has to do with the sheer amount of hippo + mandatory grass + pussy pivot sciz shit that it has. I think Scizor's offensive power is heavily inflated in a tier like this where setup opportunity is plentiful. The reality is the set I see most often is the pussy set with mucho bulk 3 atks roost, which I do feel is a strong pivot and has great utility despite it's pussiness. The flexibility of Scizor is definitely nothing to scoff at and losing the ability to plop hp fire onto whatever you want is truly a shame... as well as losing z moves to muscle through Scizor's great typing w strong neutral coverage.
Regardless though I think the slowness of the tier invites Scizor into being this big monster on paper, relying on Amoonguss as a Scizor check didn't even work in SM idk why people think it'll work now. The idea that you have to run tang or guss or you're absolutely positively fuckin trolling beyond belief is smth I never rly understood even when Krook was god like eons ago. But this crutch I think is smth that contributes to Scizor's nastiness in the tier. I think bullet punch offers a lot of great offensive utility that we don't otherwise have, I mean honestly Scizor is the only real steel we have (not actually, but it's the only one that feels good to splash w/o much else thought).
I personally feel we have a fair bit of counterplay to Scizor. Defensive pivot sets are annoying but don't do much in the long run and can ultimately be setup fodder or just fodder in general for stuff like SD Coba, Specs/CM Keld, etc. The offensive sets are threatening but don't have the longevity to win games if played against well a lot of the time, rocky helm is everywhere and it has to be running the right coverage/set in any given situation it finds itself in, similar to SM lati which IMO has looked strongest right now post-quag. You can't run everything and while it's extremely uncomfortable to play against w/o information, it can be equally irritating to play with due to simply not having the right tools for Scizor to be as much of a threat as it could be. I don't think the meta has had enough time to marinate w Scizor and w/o Aegislash, I think meta trends can still shift in positive directions and I don't personally think Scizor has a stranglehold on the tier that people imply. A lot of the " multiple scizor answers that're MANDATED" as people claim are pretty splashable anyways, and there's honestly some potential Scizor answers still out there that I feel haven't been explored as thoroughly as they should be, Tentacruel being a big one, oven albiet I understand the zydawg downside, the spam fire coverage route which imo is not rly going too far out of ur way, etc. But coba/flamethrower mence are extremely splashable as an example and do the job just fine w/o question (while covering an array of other things in the tier and having synergy).
Idk idfc that much I mostly just wanted to share this cool HO i got reqs with: [click]
Honestly this reqs run was fuckin irritating but I do feel p decent abt this HO, not just dropping this in the thread due to tradition of giving a team. I think the team pressures everything it needs to. I tried multiple diff leads but Froslass ultimately felt the best by a large margin after a lot of experimentation w stuff like Accelgor and other random stuff. I obviously built around Scizor due to it being a Scizor suspect, and ngl it did feel incredibly strong, although I don't feel like the sample size of games I got was good enough for me to rly say it was because Scizor is actually just god (even tho it's definitely rly strong), most of it's end game wins were due to my opponent not knowing that Bullet Punch was a priority move or some dumb shit like that. But basically Scizor is meant to either be the end-game w sdbpbpbpbp or muscle through major threats to the team such as Skarmory/Celesteela (which it does v well at +2 w superpower). After that there's a solid shot that w a little more oomph dd mence can win the game w just one boost in most scenarios. Mamoswine comes into play w this plan as well a fair bit, usually the throwaway mon that is there primarily for offensive utility in bad mus and raw breaking power in good mus, strong ice prio is just rly good here lol. I originally had daunt in the keld slot, then I tried azu, but ultimately it was just way too much phys attackers and stuff like skarm could just be way too obnoxious if I didn't play literally picture perfect every single turn, Keld also made the speed tiers way less clunky and just rounded out the team extremely well, forcing out all the things I want it to and further pressuring Scizor as well. VERY potent breaker/wincon as well w lo stabs + coverage. Lastly the Azelf I think is actually very strong on this type of build, I coulda went w boring shit like Coba or smth but there was no rocks coba set that rly woulda provided the strength I needed to keep the ball rolling into the finish line. I woulda had to do Taunt shit and just sack my coba in most mus while doing a net like 40% w it and getting rocks up against like 4 boots mons (probably). Azelf (on the ladder) can catch skarms semi consistently but a BIG BIG deal for me was the speed tier and the BOOM. It VERY consistently would lure Slowking and Mandibuzz which are two big pains, especially Mandibuzz the mu woulda been nigh unplayable in a lot of situations if I didn't successfully get the boom off but 9 times out of 10 ppl can't deal w an Azelf outside of Mandibuzz if they have a Mandibuzz and p much have to trade, regardless they don't expect boom at all and the dmg output is v good. It's speed tier is rly nice here as well outpacing most things and getting rocks up v reliably. Raikou is strong and can be a big pain vs this team but usually u just try to win w mence before it becomes a problem.
* 
(Fire Punch) 
/
(Swords Dance) 
* (Flamethrower) 
* (Incinerate) 
* 
(Will-O-Wisp) 
* 
* 
* 
*
[click]