Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

Dusk Mage Necrozma

formerly XenonHero126
defensive landorus some times increases its special defence.
even if it doesn't,if the enemy has a heatran in their team then blacephalon will be forced to switch.

as about tapu lele since it is not guaranteed OHKO on zapdos it is not a proper councer.(37.5% chance to OHKO isn't that high).
also running psychic on tapu lele has a big opportunity cost,since it needs to beat blissey with psyshock,and needs thunderbolt more.
Okay, maybe Lele isn’t OHKOing every wall, but it’s forcing progress and it certainly isn’t being walled by them. Stall is in no way problematic right now.

 
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Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Pre-Contributor
stall is incredibly annoying to play against, there are a lots of defensive cores meaning that you have to make an entire team full of wall breakers in order to be properly prepared.

and some cores need specific pokemon in order to be broken.

like the landorus+corviknight core, the ONLY pokemon that can take this core down with its STAB moves is volcanion.(while there are electric-ice types out there,their stats and moves aren't that good)

or the toxapex+landorus/hippodown+zapdos core, ONLY pokemon that can beat this core with its STAB moves is mamoswine(which is not a very good pokemon).
Landorus seems like a very curious mon to point out in cores, as it is extremely easy to break through, a lack of recovery means that even if you can't 2hko it, a 3hko is usually all you'll need, as you can hit it once, then force it to come back in at a later time.

You seem to be under the assumption that a defensive pokemon counters an offensive pokemon if it lives two hits from full. There are many factors during a game that can influence a pokemon's health to take some amount of chip. Hazards, status, taking a hit from another pokemon (even if it doesn't deal more than 20%, that damage might still be influential in the long run.).

Another thing with fighting defensive cores is that in a vacuum, obviously you're not going to be able to beat every stall mon 1 on 1, an important factor while playing against bulkier teams is positioning and breaking through defensive cores. For example if your defensive cores are used seldom as defensive options, there are a ton of breakers that easily plow through the teams once they are able to get in. Having one pokemon that threatens both mons at the same time isn't necessary, because for example, Urshifu-R doesn't win a fight 1v1 vs Corviknight, but if Urshifu comes in against Landorus (Which it beats 1v1), Corviknight cannot switch in and beat Urshifu-R.

Now I know Pizza Man mentioned two mons that beat the two cores you mentioned, but there are even more that can break through them with very minimal help.
These are only options within the A and S tier, there are many more in the lower ranks.

Offensive Answers
:dragapult::
Landorus being below 70% at any point in the game means dragapult 2hko's specially defensive variants, Corviknight on the other hand can't comfortably switch in and threaten dragapult out.

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 169-201 (42.2 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 136-162 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- 92.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

:weavile: :choice_band::

This mon goes crazy
252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 1020-1224 (267 - 320.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Weavile Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 216-255 (54 - 63.7%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery



:urshifu-rapid-strike::

Surging Strikes go brr
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian on a critical hit: 612-726 (160.2 - 190%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight on a critical hit: 198-234 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- approx. 57% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

:Tyranitar: :choice_band:


If stone edge accuracy scares you that much, you can go for elemental punches if you want

:heatran:

Eruption Heatran easily flattens both, but even just magma storm is enough to take down Landorus after a couple of interactions.

:Rotom-Wash:
I think you forgot this fellow

:Volcanion:
you mentionned this guy

:Blacephalon: :Victini: :Volcarona:
Landorus is an extremely shaky check to offensive fires.


Less Offensive Answers

:tornadus-therian::
Annoys both of them, removes items, weakens with hurricane and heat wave and doesn't take much in the long term with regen.

:slowbro:
Scald hurts both of these a lot, and slowbro can just teleport to get a free switch.

:tapu-fini:
Both of these mons give a setup opportunity for CM fini, or it can just dish straight damage with surf or scald.

Offensive Answers

:Tapu Lele: :Choice_Specs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex in Psychic Terrain: 462-546 (151.9 - 179.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos in Psychic Terrain: 343-405 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian in Psychic Terrain: 262-309 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Hippowdon in Psychic Terrain: 280-330 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Both Timid and Modest work, also Specs Lele can absolutely be ran with both Psychic and Psyshock, if you absolutely want to run tbolt, just replace moonblast.

:Blacephalon: :Choice_Specs:

The only mon that somewhat checks Blace on the core is Pex, however after a few interactions it is fairly simple to break down, with either a spdef drop occuring or some other kind of chip (Usually rocks), making pex unable to be a long termcounter.

:Garchomp:

The grounds are barely checks to SD Chomp, if you're a real one you run Aqua Tail though

:Rotom-Wash:
Water and Electric coverage hits both Pex and your bulky ground, while zap usually has no way to realistically threaten rotom.

:Slowking-Galar:
Galarian slowbro has an advantageous matchup into the core, by threatening pex and zapdos hard, while being able to threaten a ground type switchin with either scald or a sludge bomb poison. Or if you're a real one, you run Shuca NP with Ice Beam/Psychic/Flame.

Less Offensive Answers

:Clefable: :
I hate this guy as much as anyone else, but it lives forever and generally annoys all of the mons listed with knock and can either set up rocks or somewhat freely moonblast.

Future Sight
While not an instantaneous means to threaten a pokemon out, future sight + a breaker has proven to be a very effective way to beat cores with pex.

TLDR:
A pokemon doesn't need to beat every mon of a core 1v1 to dismantle it, it usually just needs to be able to come in against one pokemon of the team it can confidently 1v1, and make it so no switchins are without consequence to the opponent. Gen 8 OU doesn't revolve around getting an OHKO every turn, but positioning your team strategically to find an opportunity to break through teams.
 
specs lele literally solo breaks everything you just mentioned especially since tbolt is commonplace
I stg people should be required to post their gxe/elo when they make takes like this. Specs lele is basically unwallable (glowking + dark type is a good defensive core for it, and strong in general), and honestly if we want to get down to it kinda problematic in today's metagame. If you're complaining about stall and boots in november 2022, I want to see some replays as examples as to why there needs to be a suspect. Almost every good team should have at least one knock off mon, and very good mons like clef, pex, lando and weavile get it and can easily fit it in.
 
I stg people should be required to post their gxe/elo when they make takes like this. Specs lele is basically unwallable (glowking + dark type is a good defensive core for it, and strong in general), and honestly if we want to get down to it kinda problematic in today's metagame. If you're complaining about stall and boots in november 2022, I want to see some replays as examples as to why there needs to be a suspect. Almost every good team should have at least one knock off mon, and very good mons like clef, pex, lando and weavile get it and can easily fit it in.
i stopped taking them seriously after saying lele needs psychic to beat zapdos and especially after mentioning mamoswine, dudes talking abt an unmon to cteam the nonexistent landorus stall
 
defensive landorus some times increases its special defence.
even if it doesn't,if the enemy has a heatran in their team then blacephalon will be forced to switch.

as about tapu lele since it is not guaranteed OHKO on zapdos it is not a proper councer.(37.5% chance to OHKO isn't that high).
also running psychic on tapu lele has a big opportunity cost,since it needs to beat blissey with psyshock,and needs thunderbolt more.
lando can only switch into specs blace like twice at most, heatran doesn't like taking specs shadow balls either, blace beats both long term because you hit them for like 35-40 something damage and switch, next time they try to come in they get 2hkod and it especially doesn't help that both of these mons especially lando are very easy to chip since they have no longevity except leftovers

lele doesn't need to run psychic to beat zapdos, you're faster than defensive and 2hko with stabs so you just click moonblast / psyshock as it switches in and click it again, even if it's faster lele never gets ohko'd by zapdos
 
To make some productive discussion, how do you guys handle future sight + shifu/weavile? My best bet has been slowbro, cuz it can afford to take a knock or u-turn in a pinch, but in general it's an extremely powerful offensive combo that forces progress. I'm not an amazing player tho so I'd love to here some of your strategies.
 
Heatran with Taunt, Toxic, Magma Storm, and Earth Power can chip and eliminate Slowbro and Slowking over time if you play it right and don't use Heatran recklessly. It is great at deterring your opponent from switching in Weavile if you have Heatran in against the Slow twins, and because of Urshifu's garbage special defense, it can't really switch in that much since it is 3HKOed after Magma Storm chip. Pairing Heatran with Slowbro generally makes it hard for FuturePort to make progress if your opponent is depending on Urshifu.
 
To make some productive discussion, how do you guys handle future sight + shifu/weavile? My best bet has been slowbro, cuz it can afford to take a knock or u-turn in a pinch, but in general it's an extremely powerful offensive combo that forces progress. I'm not an amazing player tho so I'd love to here some of your strategies.
I've been running a lot of glowking + urshifu and it feels pretty braindead -- not sure how I didn't run the archetype before now. throw in a weavile and/or dragapult and you've got one heck of an offensive combo... to be honest, every time I've clicked FSight so far in this kick has resulted in a KO, and it seems like a lot of teams just flat-out lose to the pressure of FSight + urshifu. I know this isn't news or helpful, but I can confirm it's extremely powerful.

edit: just saw Avira's reply, and I can also confirm I've lost my glowking to heatran once so far and that definitely helps a ton.
 
To make some productive discussion, how do you guys handle future sight + shifu/weavile? My best bet has been slowbro, cuz it can afford to take a knock or u-turn in a pinch, but in general it's an extremely powerful offensive combo that forces progress. I'm not an amazing player tho so I'd love to here some of your strategies.
positioning can be rlly important vs f sight, going hard into an offensive mon that scares out the f sight abuser after f sight is set up can prevent you from going down a mon, for example if it's shifu go hard into smth like torn pult koko kart etc on bro's teleport or on scarf lele's hard switch to shifu, then shifu can't come in / is forced out and u can double into a mon to absorb the f sight, if it's bro you can even go hard into a strong special attacker that scares it out like lele pult and very risky but blace to punish it for clicking f sight and now it can't teleport so you just have to deal with unpaired f sight

even defensive mons with reliable recovery can work with this, clef and corv come to mind because they can tank the hit soft boiled / roost and then tank the f sight, protect mons can also work vs everything that isn't shifu like spdef chomp and melmetal since they can easily sponge a f sight

i'll also mention some specific things like having bro vs f sight shifu though they gain momentum by clicking turn but you also don't go down a mon, also light screen pex for stall fans
 
positioning can be rlly important vs f sight, going hard into an offensive mon that scares out the f sight abuser after f sight is set up can prevent you from going down a mon, for example if it's shifu go hard into smth like torn pult koko kart etc on bro's teleport or on scarf lele's hard switch to shifu, then shifu can't come in / is forced out and u can double into a mon to absorb the f sight, if it's bro you can even go hard into a strong special attacker that scares it out like lele pult and very risky but blace to punish it for clicking f sight and now it can't teleport so you just have to deal with unpaired f sight
harding on bro teleport to go into smth like koko, pult, torn-t is super risky asf esp if its lele future sight since urshifu-r can also stay in and risking to take a shit ton on ur mon if u try to predict incorrectly. Ur risking such a huge 50/50 that is not favourable, they switch out and you stay in and you potentially pretty much lose that mon... torn-t takes a shit ton but it can regen it off so it can risk it but mons such as koko and pult are gonna be so low like 20% esp if its lele and now it might be a KO.... u can position but u prob are gonna u-turn out since u "force out" urshifu-r but u also risk losin g ur mon
 
harding on bro teleport to go into smth like koko, pult, torn-t is super risky asf esp if its lele future sight since urshifu-r can also stay in and risking to take a shit ton on ur mon if u try to predict incorrectly. Ur risking such a huge 50/50 that is not favourable, they switch out and you stay in and you potentially pretty much lose that mon... torn-t takes a shit ton but it can regen it off so it can risk it but mons such as koko and pult are gonna be so low like 20% esp if its lele and now it might be a KO.... u can position but u prob are gonna u-turn out since u "force out" urshifu-r but u also risk losin g ur mon
expecting an overpredict and risking losing shifu is such a stupid play especially if it's still a 6v6 scenario because then you're just asking to go down a mon, hence why i said you double into a mon that can absorb f sight after because of course you don't want your pult or koko or anything that isn't torn rlly to take f sight, obv this sequence isn't foolproof and the opponent can be stupid and keep shifu in so if you get the plays wrong youre gonna get punished but aside from like bro and like i said using a bulky insta recovery mon like clef or corv what else are you supposed to do vs f sight shifu

edit: just noticed this btw but if you're going hard into slowbro with any of those mons u mentioned usually youre doing it on the f sight, not the teleport turn but if need be to prevent the f sight shifu kill you can
 
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expecting an overpredict and risking losing shifu is such a stupid play especially if it's still a 6v6 scenario because then you're just asking to go down a mon, hence why i said you double into a mon that can absorb f sight after because of course you don't want your pult or koko or anything that isn't torn rlly to take f sight, obv this sequence isn't foolproof and the opponent can be stupid and keep shifu in so if you get the plays wrong youre gonna get punished but aside from like bro and like i said using a bulky insta recovery mon like clef or corv what else are you supposed to do vs f sight shifu
yeah but that is not exactly an overpredict "why i said you double into a mon that can absorb f sight after because of course you don't want your pult or koko or anything that isn't torn rlly to take f sight" you said yourself the mons are to valuable to lose so why would they stay in and tbolt, draco, etc when u can switch out, its a valid scenario since sure its very risky but good god the reward is huge esp since sight + urshifu-r pretty much claim a kill
 
yeah but that is not exactly an overpredict "why i said you double into a mon that can absorb f sight after because of course you don't want your pult or koko or anything that isn't torn rlly to take f sight" you said yourself the mons are to valuable to lose so why would they stay in and tbolt, draco, etc when u can switch out, its a valid scenario since sure its very risky but good god the reward is huge esp since sight + urshifu-r pretty much claim a kill
i see ur point now from that perspective and ykw i can agree w u, opposing f sight + shifu is just a very tough scenario to be in and this is obv a very risky solution if you get the 50/50 wrong then you just lose a mon regardless, but if you catch the shifu staying in and kill it and take like a fuckton from f sight that's definitely a worthy trade, this scenario absolutely shouldn't be taken as a reliable way to combat this just was a specific example to potentially get around losing a mon
 
one thing that I don't understand about the gen 8 is why is bisharp in OU?
what kind of niche does this thing have?
is its STAB succkerpunch really worth it?

wasn't galarian zapdos just better?

I can't remember the last time I used that thing.
 

Fusion Flare

i have hired this cat to stare at you
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
one thing that I don't understand about the gen 8 is why is bisharp in OU?
what kind of niche does this thing have?
is its STAB succkerpunch really worth it?

wasn't galarian zapdos just better?

I can't remember the last time I used that thing.
You can take it up with whatever portion of the ladder’s still spamming it. Nowadays, its good traits aren’t enough to usurp Weavile as the premier source of Dark STAB. I mean, there’s not much use out of taking advantage Defog and Intimidate when your Ice moves beat the ‘stache off Lando-T and most Defoggers other than Fini and maybe Corviknight. And there’s also a matter of Speed. Bisharp might be stronger w SD since it doesnt have to run Boots, but MAN, does it use Sucker Punch like a crutch. And Steel-stab usually doesnt matter anyways, given that you can just Knock most Fini and let hazards do your heavy lifting, when using Weavile.
 
one thing that I don't understand about the gen 8 is why is bisharp in OU?
what kind of niche does this thing have?
is its STAB succkerpunch really worth it?

wasn't galarian zapdos just better?

I can't remember the last time I used that thing.
The answer: forget Defog + defiant , STAB knock off is trendy, here’s a 1 sentence rundown of each. Mandibuzz is added for the sake of completion.

:bisharp: Bisharp - fits offense well, conveniently resists rock, dragon, shadow ball, Weavile STABS, and doesn’t care for Clefable

:crawdaunt: Crawdaunt: deletes at least one Pokémon against stall, resists Weavile STAB, auto-win against FS, adaptability crabhammer is so strong it often takes away the need for prediction.

:Weavile: Weavile - fastest STAB knock off user, convenient ice STAB, excellent matchup against zapdos/tornadus/Garchomp

:Mandibuzz: Mandibuzz - incredibly bulky blanket check to offensive grass types, ghost types, stored power and physical set up boosting
 
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The answer: forget Defog + defiant , STAB knock off is trendy, here’s a 1 sentence rundown of each. Mandibuzz is added for the sake of completion.

:bisharp: Bisharp - fits offense well, conveniently resists rock, dragon, shadow ball, Weavile STABS, and doesn’t care for Clefable

:crawdaunt: Crawdaunt: deletes at least one Pokémon against stall, resists Weavile STAB, auto-win against FS, adaptability crabhammer is so strong it often takes away the need for prediction.

:Weavile: Weavile - fastest STAB knock off user, convenient ice STAB, excellent matchup against zapdos/tornadus/Garchomp

:Mandibuzz: Mandibuzz - incredibly bulky blanket check to offensive grass types, ghost types, stored power and physical set up boosting
thanks
 

xray

how u doin'?
is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
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TornT is nowhere even close to overwhelming or unhealthy. It is a fantastic pivot and glue for teams, a great knock user and highly versatile, but it isn't difficult to beat with a remotely decently built team. It's a common knock and status victim, and its just average bulk is often forgotten because it has deceptive longevity due to regen.



Pex is at a low point because the meta has naturally grown in a way that is less favorable to it. Things like future sight, lele and knock spam being good have very little to do with Pex supposed influence on the metagame. All of these would be as prominent (if not more) if Pex wasn't around. They're naturally effective.



This isn't early gen8. Pex is not some get out of jail free card against even strong SE hits. There are many pokemon it cannot just eat a hit from and then switch out for free. Strong hits exist that leave it chipped to a point of being less able to switch into what it should be switching into. Its overreliance on status/knock is exploitable itself. Heck even something like Weavile can and does take advantage of Pex. SD sets have been shown in games to force it into an awkward recover+haze loop that can see haze being pp stalled.



The metagame isn't even reacting to Pex like it did earlier in gen8, or like has to other pokemon durinh the crown tundra metagame. There are many more pokemon that have caused far more notable reactive developments in the CT. Rocky helmet spam and dark/ice checks due to Weavile, Gastrodon and RotomW popping back up to help with Volcanion but also Zapdos and other special attackers.

It got brought up earlier in the generation when there were less tools to deal with it. But nowadays it has less impact than ever and is more annoying than it is unhealthy. And frankly... Vague claims like "a good portion of the player base supports the suspect" despite playerbase surveys not even mentioning it in any large capacity... They have no weight or meaning. Especially without proof. The burden of proof is on you.

Tldr; Pex is more than fine in the metagame.
This is probably one of the best posts I've seen in this thread by a mile, thanks, couldn't have said it any better.

In my opinion, this whole discussion about Toxapex is an entire joke made up by mindless HO-spammers (or at least that is what they desire to be with Pex gone) looking for a scape goat. This might be entertained by a high number of low ladder players because "Pex is so annoying" and tbf Pex is actually a pretty good noobkiller, because these people often struggle to break it (because they don't know how to). Go on and push for a Toxapex-Suspect, but I can tell you that the majority of actually good and experienced players will for sure vote against it.
 
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Toxapex is a common feature on stall, and sometimes balance. Regenerator, good typing, and high defenses usually mean that it’s one of stalls most prominent switch ins. I wouldn’t be surprised if Toxapex is used in more turns in a stall game than any other Pokémon.

seriously , think about it, in a typical 346 turn stall game, toxapex might make an appearance in 179 turns, whilst the second most used Pokémon in that battle, such as corviknight, might be showing up in only 72 turns.

therefore, the toxapex hate is basically synonymous with hating stalling tactics, particularly with the usage of regerator spam (this is due to one of the most frustrating turn-wasting stall tactics is the double regenerator switching in and out).

Some wanted shedinja to be the face of stall, others said it must be clefable, or blissey, yet again others insisted it was unaware quagsire, or the mighty pyukumu..

toxapex didn’t choose to be the face of stall, it just is..

Stall teams typically have an advantage over HO and many balance teams, they also have an easy time against rain, whilst sun is a very difficult matchup. So a lot of teams naturally have a frustrating time trying to figure out how to break the Pex, or break the clefable, etc
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
toxapex didn’t choose to be the face of stall, it just is..
Bro stop feeling sad for a literal bunker who eats corsolas
Honestly, pex is pain, its more than manageable, but the mere existence of pex adds +50 turns of the match unless you chocked, I remember making a Stall Toxic Spikes team (shoutout to Zedhadtool for making the team viable) and i remember just winning out of sheer poison spam, man, and thats basically it, Pex is extremly passive, you know what its gonna do, with little variations (maybe haze, or ice beam or the bunker shield thingy)

As for TornT, i havent seen a single TornT in the little time i got to play, nor i ever tried to put it on a team, so i cant really say anything unless cool bird
 
Re: boots, my main issue with them is makes Gen 8 a ton of games just about spamming knock off until you can finally make progress with hazards, the one thing that, mechanically, makes singles actually work as a format.

I think the interesting thing is, it's kind of obvious Game Freak is taking competitive more seriously, and they are designing items, pokemon, abilities, and mechanics for their 3v3 singles and 4v4 doubles formats, which all have an items clause. It's kind of obvious that the way boots are supposed to work is that you put them on one Volcarona or Charizard per team so it doesn't get immediately owned by rocks, or one regenerator Slowbro per team so it can come in for free and click Teleport. The proliferation of fat teams entirely immune to hazards, forcing every other play style to run knock off, is just clearly not what boots are supposed to do, especially when you consider a lot of mons actually lost access to knock off this gen in official play, only being available via transfer from earlier gens.

It's of course not overly burdensome to find good knock off users for your teams. And Smogon has always operated under a philosophy of "if it's technically legal it's good to use", so the transfer rules don't and shouldn't matter in general. But in this specific case, a ton of games now are basically just "click knock with torn, pex, and/or weavile" when they probably don't have to be. Sometimes it's not even about it being "broken". Boots spam still makes games repetitive and more frustrating
 
Re: boots, my main issue with them is makes Gen 8 a ton of games just about spamming knock off until you can finally make progress with hazards, the one thing that, mechanically, makes singles actually work as a format.

I think the interesting thing is, it's kind of obvious Game Freak is taking competitive more seriously, and they are designing items, pokemon, abilities, and mechanics for their 3v3 singles and 4v4 doubles formats, which all have an items clause. It's kind of obvious that the way boots are supposed to work is that you put them on one Volcarona or Charizard per team so it doesn't get immediately owned by rocks, or one regenerator Slowbro per team so it can come in for free and click Teleport. The proliferation of fat teams entirely immune to hazards, forcing every other play style to run knock off, is just clearly not what boots are supposed to do, especially when you consider a lot of mons actually lost access to knock off this gen in official play, only being available via transfer from earlier gens.

It's of course not overly burdensome to find good knock off users for your teams. And Smogon has always operated under a philosophy of "if it's technically legal it's good to use", so the transfer rules don't and shouldn't matter in general. But in this specific case, a ton of games now are basically just "click knock with torn, pex, and/or weavile" when they probably don't have to be. Sometimes it's not even about it being "broken". Boots spam still makes games repetitive and more frustrating
I doubt Boots being removed would change this at all though. Counterplaying Knock Off is harder this generation due to the removal of Mega Stones and Z-Crystals. Most Pokemon spam Knock Off not because it specifically gets rid of Heavy Duty Boots, but because it is guarenteed to deal solid damage and make progress against the Pokemon's counters by removing their held item. Removing Ferrothron, Landorus-T, or Heatran's Leftovers significantly lowers their longevity and makes them much easier to break down later on.

Also the opponent having HDB doesn't make it impossible to make progress with hazards. There are still members of their team, like Dragapult, Tapu Lele, Urshifu, etc. that usually don't run HDB and hazards will still be making progress against them.
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
Re: boots, my main issue with them is makes Gen 8 a ton of games just about spamming knock off until you can finally make progress with hazards, the one thing that, mechanically, makes singles actually work as a format.

I think the interesting thing is, it's kind of obvious Game Freak is taking competitive more seriously, and they are designing items, pokemon, abilities, and mechanics for their 3v3 singles and 4v4 doubles formats, which all have an items clause. It's kind of obvious that the way boots are supposed to work is that you put them on one Volcarona or Charizard per team so it doesn't get immediately owned by rocks, or one regenerator Slowbro per team so it can come in for free and click Teleport. The proliferation of fat teams entirely immune to hazards, forcing every other play style to run knock off, is just clearly not what boots are supposed to do, especially when you consider a lot of mons actually lost access to knock off this gen in official play, only being available via transfer from earlier gens.

It's of course not overly burdensome to find good knock off users for your teams. And Smogon has always operated under a philosophy of "if it's technically legal it's good to use", so the transfer rules don't and shouldn't matter in general. But in this specific case, a ton of games now are basically just "click knock with torn, pex, and/or weavile" when they probably don't have to be. Sometimes it's not even about it being "broken". Boots spam still makes games repetitive and more frustrating
I doubt Boots being removed would change this at all though. Counterplaying Knock Off is harder this generation due to the removal of Mega Stones and Z-Crystals
Something that some people forget its that running megas or Z moves means not running things like the poke jordans, and I now some mons like all the birds will run boots, but now you got Volc thinking about le epic anime move or running drip, and still, even with all this, everyone is spamming knock off since gen 6, i really dont think boots are a problem
 
I doubt Boots being removed would change this at all though. Counterplaying Knock Off is harder this generation due to the removal of Mega Stones and Z-Crystals. Most Pokemon spam Knock Off not because it specifically gets rid of Heavy Duty Boots, but because it is guarenteed to deal solid damage and make progress against the Pokemon's counters by removing their held item. Removing Ferrothron, Landorus-T, or Heatran's Leftovers significantly lowers their longevity and makes them much easier to break down later on.

Also the opponent having HDB doesn't make it impossible to make progress with hazards. There are still members of their team, like Dragapult, Tapu Lele, Urshifu, etc. that usually don't run HDB and hazards will still be making progress against them.
Of course knock has been good since forever. And of course not every team is a boots spam team. In gens that are not gen 8 though, knock off is just one of several ways you can choose to make progress. Meanwhile, in this gen, if you do not have enough knock off on your team there are games where you will straight up never make progress. It's the difference between something being good and something being necessary
 
Of course knock has been good since forever. And of course not every team is a boots spam team. In gens that are not gen 8 though, knock off is just one of several ways you can choose to make progress. Meanwhile, in this gen, if you do not have enough knock off on your team there are games where you will straight up never make progress. It's the difference between something being good and something being necessary
Knock Off is an amazing way to make progress but it is not the only way. Chip damage, breakers, and good positioning.
 

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