Resource SS NU Viability Ranking Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
yo sup!!! the torracat-roselia-swirlix democratic union has spoken and elected the newest NU tier HEAT, so check out my hot takes uwu

:ss/Articuno-Galar:
UR -> C/C+

Offensive Psychic-types are incredibly powerful in the current metagame, with limited access to reliable defensive Steel-types and a plethora of secondary breakers to overwhelm them. Articuno-Galar differentiates itself from other offensive Psychics like Indeedee-F thanks to its access to secondary Flying-type STAB as well as outstanding 90/85/100 neutral bulk and Competitive as a tool to deter hazard removal.
Moreover, its Speed tier is very decent, allowing for the usage of a Modest nature with little drawbacks, further enhancing its breaking capabilities. The aforementioned above-average bulk lets it eat any one single neutral hit and even weaker super-effective hits such as Rotom-C's Volt Switch and Diancie's Diamond Storm. Also, it just 1 shots every relevant offensive threat in after Stealth Rock and 2 shots every non Steel-type defensive pokémon (max SpDef Sylveon takes 50% from Modest Choice Specs Hurricane) lol.

honorable mentions (just cause yall aint gonna rank them even if i nom LOL):
:aurorus:
Rock and Ice is an extremely potent offensive combination. Aurorus's access to chip damage through Hail, powerful 100% accurate Blizzards and near-perfect coverage with Freeze-Dry and Earth Power lets it be a very scary offensive tool to handle. Meteor Beam is a very rewarding STAB of choice and utility in Stealth Rock or further setupping capabilities in Rock Polish make it versatile enough to function as both late-game sweeper or early game breaker/support.

:pikachu:
lol it breaks what can i say LOL
Volt Tackle can abuse slower defensive cores, while FakeSpeed makes the role of revenge killing frailer offensive threats easy. It is, however, a very situational Pokémon that requires way too much team support lol
(but it is fun and beat both rabia and gw so sue me uwu)

vs. high ladder balance https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1587218084
vs. joey milktank, showcasing Articuno-G's cleaning capabilities https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1586755878-pxzz15hemrdwi2k75ndh2n2fd99w56zpw
vs. more standard balances, mainly showcases Aurorus's raw breaking potential https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1587213124-vdoq8c3zr6ics36uio5i109djmeqin6pw
vs. NUPL TEAM CAPTAIN GW, showcasing Articuno-G's ability to pressure common defensive structures and break through common defensive checks (like SpDef Steels) through sheer force https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1587395086-2u4i17962avlutwpo7rbgm15p3qkxe4pw
vs. Luck O' the Irish showcasing Pikachu and Articuno-G's breaking capabilities https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1586640076
vs. Lucario showcasing Pikachu's breaking capabilities against bulkier team structures https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1586748753-rbuovpfse0dzeru2vx2bvbxe97asnu7pw
vs. high ladder offense https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1586742074-s8z5wpc8v29kihxgrrvog8818byeid4pw
vs. Lord Rabia: an exclusive scope on how Pikachu singlehandledly defeated the roomowner's Ninjask HO:
 
yo sup!!! the torracat-roselia-swirlix democratic union has spoken and elected the newest NU tier HEAT, so check out my hot takes uwu

:ss/Articuno-Galar:
UR -> C/C+

Offensive Psychic-types are incredibly powerful in the current metagame, with limited access to reliable defensive Steel-types and a plethora of secondary breakers to overwhelm them. Articuno-Galar differentiates itself from other offensive Psychics like Indeedee-F thanks to its access to secondary Flying-type STAB as well as outstanding 90/85/100 neutral bulk and Competitive as a tool to deter hazard removal.
Moreover, its Speed tier is very decent, allowing for the usage of a Modest nature with little drawbacks, further enhancing its breaking capabilities. The aforementioned above-average bulk lets it eat any one single neutral hit and even weaker super-effective hits such as Rotom-C's Volt Switch and Diancie's Diamond Storm. Also, it just 1 shots every relevant offensive threat in after Stealth Rock and 2 shots every non Steel-type defensive pokémon (max SpDef Sylveon takes 50% from Modest Choice Specs Hurricane) lol.

honorable mentions (just cause yall aint gonna rank them even if i nom LOL):
:aurorus:
Rock and Ice is an extremely potent offensive combination. Aurorus's access to chip damage through Hail, powerful 100% accurate Blizzards and near-perfect coverage with Freeze-Dry and Earth Power lets it be a very scary offensive tool to handle. Meteor Beam is a very rewarding STAB of choice and utility in Stealth Rock or further setupping capabilities in Rock Polish make it versatile enough to function as both late-game sweeper or early game breaker/support.

:pikachu:
lol it breaks what can i say LOL
Volt Tackle can abuse slower defensive cores, while FakeSpeed makes the role of revenge killing frailer offensive threats easy. It is, however, a very situational Pokémon that requires way too much team support lol
(but it is fun and beat both rabia and gw so sue me uwu)

vs. high ladder balance https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1587218084
vs. joey milktank, showcasing Articuno-G's cleaning capabilities https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1586755878-pxzz15hemrdwi2k75ndh2n2fd99w56zpw
vs. more standard balances, mainly showcases Aurorus's raw breaking potential https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1587213124-vdoq8c3zr6ics36uio5i109djmeqin6pw
vs. NUPL TEAM CAPTAIN GW, showcasing Articuno-G's ability to pressure common defensive structures and break through common defensive checks (like SpDef Steels) through sheer force https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1587395086-2u4i17962avlutwpo7rbgm15p3qkxe4pw
vs. Luck O' the Irish showcasing Pikachu and Articuno-G's breaking capabilities https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1586640076
vs. Lucario showcasing Pikachu's breaking capabilities against bulkier team structures https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1586748753-rbuovpfse0dzeru2vx2bvbxe97asnu7pw
vs. high ladder offense https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1586742074-s8z5wpc8v29kihxgrrvog8818byeid4pw
vs. Lord Rabia: an exclusive scope on how Pikachu singlehandledly defeated the roomowner's Ninjask HO:
I suppose this is an appropriate place to ask questions about that Pikachu team since this is a thread discussing viabilty.

What is Pinsir doing? I mean Mold Breaker rock lead sounds good I just never seen it before.

Also what is your plan with Pikachu for Ground types and Grass types?

Rotom Mow gets 2HKOed but thats not the case for Tsareena, Quagsire, Silvally Ground and Musdale.
 
I suppose this is an appropriate place to ask questions about that Pikachu team since this is a thread discussing viabilty.
Hii!! The Pikachu mention was mostly as a little inside joke, it isn't really a viable pick in the current metagame (although it is very fun to use, I'll admit!). The main post was about Articuno and Aurorus :3.
What is Pinsir doing? I mean Mold Breaker rock lead sounds good I just never seen it before.
Similarly, Pinsir was just a funny pick to abuse Close Combat + Eject Pack and Stealth Rock + Mold Breaker. It also lured unaware Talonflames in (and had Stone Edge).
Also what is your plan with Pikachu for Ground types and Grass types?

Rotom Mow gets 2HKOed but thats not the case for Tsareena, Quagsire, Silvally Ground and Musdale.
Although it wasn't originally on the team, Grass Knot is an option when considering Pikachu for fun. It OHKOes Quagsire and severely chips down Mudsdale. As for Tsareena, Knock Off should be able to do about ~70%, if not more :).

TL;DR - pika is op but not so much!!!
 
Hii!! The Pikachu mention was mostly as a little inside joke, it isn't really a viable pick in the current metagame (although it is very fun to use, I'll admit!). The main post was about Articuno and Aurorus :3.

Similarly, Pinsir was just a funny pick to abuse Close Combat + Eject Pack and Stealth Rock + Mold Breaker. It also lured unaware Talonflames in (and had Stone Edge).

Although it wasn't originally on the team, Grass Knot is an option when considering Pikachu for fun. It OHKOes Quagsire and severely chips down Mudsdale. As for Tsareena, Knock Off should be able to do about ~70%, if not more :).

TL;DR - pika is op but not so much!!!
Lol I get it, personally I thought Galarian Articuno made sence and Aurorus I know very little about in this meta to really have a take on your nomination.

Pikachu I was like, I know its damage output isn't bad but something doesn't seem right.
 

Rabia

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP & NU Leader
:zoroark: UR to D (blackist) /C
It's unranked for good reason it's dogshit, but it is in the NU Tier. Therefore, I assume, it has to be on the VR somewhere, so I offer two solutions blacklist it, the worst treatment a Pokemon in their own tier can get, or place it in the lowest tier, C.
I've said this 500 times before, but to reiterate: we are not obliged to rank a Pokemon just because it's NU. If it's awful, it is unranked.
 
:zoroark: UR to D (blackist) /C
It's unranked for good reason it's dogshit, but it is in the NU Tier. Therefore, I assume, it has to be on the VR somewhere, so I offer two solutions blacklist it, the worst treatment a Pokemon in their own tier can get, or place it in the lowest tier, C.
I agree except C Tier implies a niche use and having Zoroark next to like Ferroseed for example would be incoherent.

Edit, I don't know if blacklist is different than ranking it, its pretty much a warning. Sorry if I'm wasting your time reading this.
 
:zoroark::hitmontop: UR to D (blackist) /C
They're unranked for good reason they're shit, but they are in the NU Tier. Therefore, I assume, they have to be on the VR somewhere, so I offer two solutions blacklist them, the worst treatment a Pokemon in their own tier can get, or place them in the lowest tier, C.
Incredibly based post If they are blacklisted I never have to hear about them ever again
 

Lucario

A side must always be chosen
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
It's about time I nominate this thing
:ss/Virizion:
UR --> C+/B-

To start, Virizion thrives off of the Rotom-C + Silvally-Ground core as well as Staka + Quag. Its high Special Defense paired with its Grass typing allows it to resist all of Rotom's moves and hit Silvally with supereffective damage. It beats down on common defensive threats like Mudsdale, Quagsire, Vaporeon, Stakataka, and Copperajah. It has Stone Edge as coverage for Talonflame and Arcanine, which everyone tends to switch into on Virizion. Its great Speed allows it to outspeed Silvally without needing a Scarf, which is necessary in current times. Lastly, Virizion is great at revenge killing and pressuring teams into switching in non-ideal Pokemon. Other sets such as Scarf and CM allow it to beat the popular Blastoise, Salazzle, and not-so-popular Inteleon.

Heres a video from Rabia/Aim who uses it in 4 battles.

Virizion vs. Test Techles using the CB Grimmsnarl sample team https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1592639095-hknrm0agbqell2vv9bpi503kduab05mpw

Virizion vs. Waterbends using balance https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1580390246-v53nx7th242f3kvhav1yx8y0kq0qg26pw

Virizion vs. someone on ladder. It didn't do too much this battle, but it pressured the opponent into switching in Vileplume and weakening it. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1580027149-9rfq4n7ipo9zxg735pxbks25dtnwaqtpw

June 16th edit: Viriz applied pressure and got 2 KOs, afterwards it didn't do anything, but it still did something! https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1597101645-wk7svj0qcwhqcx7h3ds59bbsnowv8aopw

Viriz puts in its usual amount of work. After turn 18 you can increase the speed of the battle because for like 9 turns its just stall, but Viriz does end up revenge killing in the end. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1597889380-nqlmi8wpn9gfxzpvvgubbh7dmrd8cvjpw


edit: I fixed the random UU replay lol
 
Last edited:

Welcome to the official SS NU Viability Rankings thread. In this thread, we as a community will be ranking every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." You're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in NU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each NU Pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a tier list for the entire metagame, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense, defense, and supportive presences in the metagame within this thread. For example, Vaporeon can be ranked in the A tier as a supportive presence, Glastrier can be ranked in the A as an offensive presence, and Bronzong can be ranked in the A tier as a defensive presence. While these three examples can also be found in the initial rankings, the viability of Pokemon and their roles within the metagame can and will change over time, so we will be sure to keep an open mind to this as well and adjust the thread accordingly during each update.

Finally, there will be a council of experienced players who will discuss and vote on the ranking of Pokemon. Depending on how the metagame is developing, we could update the thread every couple of weeks or every month+. Please note that your posts still very much matter and will be factored in to what we discuss and the discussions themselves. This thread is nothing without the posters and every informed opinion that is shared is considered a valuable contribution in my eyes, so do not hesitate to post if you know the metagame well and understand the forum rules. The council will consist of the following users:
SS NU Ranking Tier List

(in alphabetical order)

S Rank:

S Rank


Rotom-C

S- Rank
Dragalge
Mudsdale
Silvally-Ground
Talonflame

A Rank:

A+ Rank


Copperajah
Escavalier
Stakataka
Sylveon
Vaporeon

A Rank

Diancie
Indeedee-F
Machamp
Quagsire
Salazzle
Tsareena
Vileplume
Xatu

A- Rank

Aerodactyl
Blastoise
Grimmsnarl
Snorlax
Starmie
Toxicroak

B Rank:

B+ Rank


Decidueye
Dhelmise
Drapion
Exeggutor-Alola
Golurk
Guzzlord
Heliolisk
Scrafty
Sirfetch'd
Tauros
Tyrantrum
Weezing

B Rank

Araquanid
Duraludon
Exploud
Mantine
Passimian

B- Rank

Braviary
Froslass
Garbodor
Inteleon
Rhydon
Sandaconda
Togedemaru

C Rank:

C+ Rank


Arcanine
Doublade
Eldegoss
Ferroseed
Gigalith
Glastrier
Ninjask
Sandslash
Stunfisk-Galar
Silvally-Steel
Tangela
Vanilluxe

C Rank

Cofagrigus
Drampa
Gourgeist-Small
Jellicent
Kabutops
Lycanroc
Scyther
Sneasel

---

Rules - Updated as of 4/5/2020
  • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will be deleted. Expand on your opinion with actual analysis showing understanding of the metagame and perhaps bringing a unique perspective to the conversation.
  • Absolutely no flaming, personal attacks, or general idiocy will be tolerated. Part of this is under moderator discretion and please know that posting in this thread is a privilege, not a right. You'll get warned initially if it is not something overly malicious, but harsher punishments can and will come with repeated behavior or severe offenses.
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. There needs to be more substance than just this. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
  • When nominating a Pokemon to move from one rank to another, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse. I can assure you that the VR Council already knows the obvious qualities and we are far more interested in understanding why you believe it has increased or decreased in viability.
  • Unrelated discussion such as talk of (potential) suspects and unproductive one liners that do not greatly contribute to discussion will be deleted. If this becomes a recurring issue for any particular user, then it could lead to an infraction. If you are unsure where to post something, feel free to start a conversation with me on here or discord. Moreover, if you have a general question, then odds are it belongs in the SQSA, not here.
  • Being NU by usage alone does not guarantee a ranking. We touched on usage not being the sole reason behind viability of anything before, but this is very true here as a lot of things accumulate ladder usage despite not being the best option. Do not mistake the correlation between usage and viability as stronger than it actually is. If you have any further questions about this, please start a conversation with me on here or discord instead of posting it in this thread.
  • When new Pokemon, items, abilities, and/or anything else relevant to the NU metagame are released, please hold off on discussing the ranking of the new Pokemon or the rankings of Pokemon that are impacted by these developments until there is approval to discuss the matter by an NU Moderator in this thread.
  • Failure to follow these rules after warning(s) will result in an infraction or possibly a ban depending on the severity of the offenses.
  • If you are nominating a Pokemon to be ranked (meaning it was previously unranked), then you need to provide replays of it being used in the metagame and you also should go out of your way to be as thorough as possible in explaining why it has a niche in the metagame (Example of GOOD UR Nomination from the OU thread) -- a vast majority of nominations have been of poor quality historically and we reserve the right to revoke nomination privileges from thread posters at any point in time. If you are in doubt, then feel free to start a conversation with me on here or discord prior to nominating a Pokemon and I will give you honest feedback on the post.
Blacklisted Pokemon: All posts regarding these Pokemon will be deleted (or nominations of these Pokemon will be removed)

None! Don't give us reason to add anything here :madge:

It should go without saying, but please be respectful when engaging with others' opinions here. Viability is, ultimately, subjective, and people will not always feel the same as you do about how good something is. Try to understand where people are coming from when they make a claim you disagree with, and seek thoughtful discourse when appropriate. If you're new, it's probably best to not post for a while until you understand proper posting etiquette and the metagame at large. Additionally, keep in mind that this thread cannot be moderated at all hours because there are a limited number of people to do so and we're not present 24/7. Happy posting!
Sneasel C --> A
Sneasel has really good matchups with pokemon in the Higher Ranks, like Rotom Mow Dragalge Xatu Vileplum Indeedee etc
the offensive combination of Stab Triple Axel and Knock Off is pretty good and also there is no many pokemon in the tier that can take these 2 moves at the same time, an example is vaporeon wich can take Triple Axel but Knock Off hits Hard the same thing but in reverse with Sylveon, also it has Ice Shard wich after a Swords Dance can OHKO Aerodactyl and Choice Band Sets are valid to destroy Stakataka and Copperalajah with Low Kick pokemon that can take Sneasel's Stabs usually, and then the pokemon that can take every sneasel set are only Defensive Excavalier and Diancie, so, one pokemon wich can counter Sneasel in a ofensively way is Salazzle, but it can't switch into Knock Off.

Edit: The introduction of Heavy Dutty Boots fix the Sneasel's Weakness to Stealth Rock and also the Gen 8 boost of his Ability Inner Focus Makes Arcanine less viable like a Defensive check, other thing to have in mind is how Scarf Indeede can't OHKO Sneasel with Mystical Fire or Dazzling Gleam, also Indeedee is a good teamate for Sneasel, because the Psychic Terrain makes Hitmontop and Lycanrock unviables to Revenge Kill with Mach Punch and acellerock respectively.
 
Last edited:
It's time we stop lying to ourselves.

SilvallySteel.png
➡ B+/A- rank
Silvally-Steel is good. I think it's on par with the other Steels, too. Silvally has its insane movepool at its disposal, boasting a naturally powerful STAB move that can be coupled with Flamethrower to hit opposing Steels or even Swords Dance to muscle past resists anyway, like on SD RestTalk sets that pdt and I have been using. Having access to Defog, 2 Pivoting moves, 2 Status moves, and an amazing speed tier relative to the rest of the tier, Silvally-Steel sets itself apart from other Steels, especially on those infamous Vaporeon Mudsdale cores.

vs OnArceus
PDT vs Turtdog NUPL
Eli vs Floss NUPL
Davon vs Stresh (2 Steelvally's in 1 game :o)
(if you would like your replay removed please just DM me)

These replays aren't anything special, Silvally might even drop 2 turns after hitting the field, but its a support Pokemon that does its job quietly and effectively. Compressing hazard removal onto a team where the only other solution is Scarf Defog Mow creates a ton of flexibility for these bulky balance teams that are crippled by hazards through constant switching and pivoting around to face the brutal breakers of the tier. Silvally-Steel's speed and positive matchups into staples such as Sylveon and Escavalier, while being able to pivot in and Parting Shot out to make Pokemon like Dragalge, Copperajah, Exeggutor-Alola, and Indeedee-F far more manageable make it unique from other Steel-types that would simply be outsped and 2HKO'd by a coverage move.

Silvally-Steel is generally agreed upon to be a visual blunder somewhere in the teambuilding process, but I think right now it's a genuine pleasure to have in the tier due to the constraints on building we face even in the wake of many suspect tests that have taken a burden off builders. Ignoring the plethora of breakers we have in the tier, another aspect of teambuilding myself and others struggle with is hazard control. Compressing Defog and a Steel-type is indescribably relieving.

there's your 3 paragraph's Lucario

:Snorlax: ➡ A

Snorlax just doesn't belong with the other A- Pokemon. Even in the matchups where it doesn't autowin, its ability to soak Special hits and even just force certain plays from an opponent is very valuable. For example a Rotom-Mow can very easily Trick Snorlax a Choice Scarf, however oops now your offensive counterplay to something like Salazzle or Silvally-Ground is gone, or you Trick the wrong thing and just lose. Exploration of Snorlax sets have been done enough to make an iceberg meme for it, ranging from using Seed Bomb for Quagsire to Choice Band sets to nuke otherwise problematic Fighting-types, to Kush's cursed Whirlpool Toxic Encore demon, meaning that even traditional Lax checks aren't even safe. As initially stated Snorlax is just a better Pokemon than the other A- tier Pokemon.


Custom Silvally Sprites are linked in my signature and sized at 42px fit perfectly in these posts if you wanted to use them yourselves.
 
Last edited:
237.png UR-> C
Today I propose Hitmontop be nommed to the VR, I believe he does have a real place in the meta and the VR should respect that. Firstly with Intimidate alongside HP and Spdef investment, Hitmontop is the bulkiest of the viable rapid spinners on average after an intimidate : Dhelmise, Tsareena, Eldegoss, Starmie and Sandslash (sand). Also, the main spin blockers in the tier can be dealt with by Hitmontop with triple axel (Decidueye and Dhelmise) or with a teammate packing knock off such as Drapion for Doublade and he can spread status with toxic. Of course Hitmontop is fairly passive but can still revenge kill with stab mach punch if needed against a chunked Tyrantrum for example who tends to drop his defences with scale shot and close combat.

Calculations

4 Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 72-86 (23.6 - 28.1%) -- 84.1% chance to 4HKO

4 Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 108-128 (35.4 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO you get the picture

4 Atk Hitmontop Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise: 168-204 (48.8 - 59.3%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO

-1 4 Atk Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 4 Atk Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- 54.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Hitmontop Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Decidueye: 216-258 (72.7 - 86.8%) -- approx. 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Spell Tag Decidueye Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 24.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Decidueye Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hitmontop: 178-211 (58.5 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tauros: 86-104 (29.5 - 35.7%) -- 26.1% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hitmontop: 82-97 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 34.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hitmontop: 163-193 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If anyone has any questions I would love to be able to provide proper answers! Enjoy your future matches NU!
 
View attachment 433105 UR-> C
Today I propose Hitmontop be nommed to the VR, I believe he does have a real place in the meta and the VR should respect that. Firstly with Intimidate alongside HP and Spdef investment, Hitmontop is the bulkiest of the viable rapid spinners on average after an intimidate : Dhelmise, Tsareena, Eldegoss, Starmie and Sandslash (sand). Also, the main spin blockers in the tier can be dealt with by Hitmontop with triple axel (Decidueye and Dhelmise) or with a teammate packing knock off such as Drapion for Doublade and he can spread status with toxic. Of course Hitmontop is fairly passive but can still revenge kill with stab mach punch if needed against a chunked Tyrantrum for example who tends to drop his defences with scale shot and close combat.

Calculations

4 Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 72-86 (23.6 - 28.1%) -- 84.1% chance to 4HKO

4 Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 108-128 (35.4 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO you get the picture

4 Atk Hitmontop Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dhelmise: 168-204 (48.8 - 59.3%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO

-1 4 Atk Dhelmise Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 4 Atk Dhelmise Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- 54.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Hitmontop Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Decidueye: 216-258 (72.7 - 86.8%) -- approx. 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Spell Tag Decidueye Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 24.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Decidueye Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hitmontop: 178-211 (58.5 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tauros: 86-104 (29.5 - 35.7%) -- 26.1% chance to 3HKO

252+ SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hitmontop: 82-97 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 34.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hitmontop: 163-193 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If anyone has any questions I would love to be able to provide proper answers! Enjoy your future matches NU!
Question

What is a full Hitmontop set?

Also I think Hitmontop is playable but the main thing I have to argue with is Tsareena is a Rapid Spinner that doubles down as an decent Physical Attacker so Hitmontops role is probably on more bulky teams with Wish support, but they usually use defog and reapply hazards.

So it serves a purpose but its limited and not always on teams that would benefit from it in favor of other cores.
 
Question

What is a full Hitmontop set?

Also I think Hitmontop is playable but the main thing I have to argue with is Tsareena is a Rapid Spinner that doubles down as an decent Physical Attacker so Hitmontops role is probably on more bulky teams with Wish support, but they usually use defog and reapply hazards.

So it serves a purpose but its limited and not always on teams that would benefit from it in favor of other cores.
in my eyes, at least, hitmontop isn't very good at all, but the best set is
Shitmontop (Hitmontop) (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Triple Axel
- Close Combat / Rock Slide / Bulldoze
- Mach Punch / Rock Slide / Bulldoze
(You must keep at least 1 STAB)
 
in my eyes, at least, hitmontop isn't very good at all, but the best set is
Shitmontop (Hitmontop) (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Triple Axel
- Close Combat / Rock Slide / Bulldoze
- Mach Punch / Rock Slide / Bulldoze
(You must keep at least 1 STAB)
That looks about correct, or it could run leftovers and use more SpD EVs
 
Question

What is a full Hitmontop set?

Also I think Hitmontop is playable but the main thing I have to argue with is Tsareena is a Rapid Spinner that doubles down as an decent Physical Attacker so Hitmontops role is probably on more bulky teams with Wish support, but they usually use defog and reapply hazards.

So it serves a purpose but its limited and not always on teams that would benefit from it in favor of other cores.
I would say
Hitmontop (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Triple Axel
- Mach Punch
- Rapid Spin
On fat teams
 
Yoooo new shift new VR (at least to some extent)! Finally having some fun with the tier again with Dragalge gone and Gastrodon the godsend to help out with some of the building conundrums, thought I'd do a quick write-up on some mons I've found to be rather good.

:Druddigon: UR -> C/C+
I believe it was one of the NUPL players that said that Stealth Rock feels very optional this gen, and honestly, I agree. Frankly, if you're building a team with a fatter defensive core (i.e. most BO/balance) and can't handle rocks being up for a bit, then you probably need to tweak a few things. In a similar vein, teams that have mons/sets that become unviable with rocks up have multiple measures to keep them off. Thus, the hazard game is in this weird spot where Spikes users are tough to fit and getting rocks up is really more of a bonus than a necessity; even HO can (somewhat) function without rocks given the absurd breakers they trade in at times. With this premise in mind, I picked Druddigon on the basis that it can get rocks up throughout a game vs fat and absolutely ruin strategies reliant on keeping rocks off with Xatu (among other things). Other nice perks of picking Druddigon as your rocks setter include giving yourself flexability in what Ground/Steel you run (since they aren't your rocks setter anymore), a Water resist, a solid Mowtom check, a surprisingly good Salazzle check, really it's nuts how many hits you tank with the old spread on Smogon (which I used bc the benchmarks are still relevant today). Personally, I feel Leftovers is the better item rn with a simple Protox set to make it proactive against most things since against offense you're really just looking to get rocks up and be a defensive buffer anyways. You can't be as cavalier with Druddigon as you can with Mudsdale in terms of switching in, but the effort is well worth it when you have the satisfaction of watching your Toxic hit Xatu. Please VR council, just acknowledge Druddigon's existence :'( especially since Rhydon kinda ass.

:Gastrodon: -> A
Not really surprising, but Gastrodon is excellent once again regardless of the shifts in the meta since it's been gone. Electric immunity? Check. Recovery? Check. Great movepool to be a proactive defensive stalwart? Oh ya, you betcha. While there is a tradeoff in running Gastrodon as opposed to Quagsire in giving up Unaware, this isn't insurmountable and can accounted for in the builder. Not to mention that Storm Drain isn't exactly a shabby ability to have, and you're a much better answer to Blastoise. Hell, if you miss Unaware that much, there's always Clear Smog, in addition to other great moves like Ice Beam, Earth Power, etc. to improve various matchups if you want to do something besides Scald/Toxic/EQ. Nothing special, but very very good and a welcome drop a year later.

Wanted to also give a quick s/o to Ferroseed, and while idt it warrants moving up on the VR, it is worth noting that with the right support it really is a great option for teams and realistically one of two viable Spikes users atm. Being able to blank most Vileplume and threaten hazards and/or Knock Off on a lot of really common mons that see you as a free switch-in is really nice, you just have to be careful watching the HP so you don't die to various hits. P.S. please dear god don't use PhysDef, living Mystical Fire is really nice.

Been using this team on latter (when it isn't totally dead) as of late: Untitled 53 (pokepast.es)
s/o to Catalisador for the Gastro spread (Spe for Muds, SpDef for +2 Stoise beam) and here's a few replays where I played like shit bc my brain don't work so well.
[Gen 8] NU replay: zracker vs. Segetarius - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
[Gen 8] NU replay: Shocker555 vs. Segetarius - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com)
 
:lycanroc: C -> C+/B-
:sandslash: maybe C+ -> B-


Sand as a playstyle just feels very solid right now with the overwhelming amount of breakers one has to prepare for in the current meta, making it quite easy to exploit certain defensive holes on teams, specially with the support of dedicated lures such as Infestation Vileplume or powerful secondary breakers like Exeggutor-Alola.
Lycanroc has near-perfect coverage in STAB SE + CC, as well as priority in its signature Accelock. Coupled with blazing speed even before the Sand Rush boost and an incredibly high Attack stat, specially when boosted by Life Orb or Choice Band, it becomes a top dog when it comes to breaking capabilities. The same can be said for Sandslash-Alola. With perfect EdgeQuake + Leech Life coverage and Sand Rush boosted Speed, the shrew has very little safe switchings, most of which crumble after a Swords Dance boost.

:vileplume: A -> A+

Vileplume is an excellent defensive glue for all types of playstyles, from hyper offense to balance. Its set versatility is also incredible, with lure Infestation, Growth and utility sets all having their own unique niches.

:blastoise: sussy baka deserves a suspect

There are very little checks to the tortoise, most of which can either be lured by a variant of Blastoise (Substitute/Timid + Earthquake) or severely weakened by the incredibly extense amount of (frankly) broken breakers running the metagame. As far as hyper offensive (which is my specialty) goes, most matches can easily come down to Blastoise vs. Blastoise action.

 
Not going to go into extreme detail about small rises, but I think these Pokemon should rise:

:heliolisk: Non-choiced sets have gained a lot of popularity for the coverage and overall lower speed of the tier. U-Turn sets allow you to simultaneously switch on Ground-types and also chip Grass-types like Exeggutor-A and Tsareena that don't mind coming in on you.

:Drapion: The progress this thing makes is next to none. Being able to lure Ground-types with Shuca Aqua Tail or simply have passive recovery with Black Sludge and all the switches it forces is very nice and again, the high speed tier helps a lot along with its great natural bulk and typing.

:exeggutor-alola: This thing just feels blatantly broken sometimes. It destroys Vaporeon balance teams like nothing else and has an amazing (albeit double-edged typing) both offensive and defensively.

:passimian: My CB Pass team has been going federal even for other players and it honestly retains a lot of qualities Machamp has while having better speed and bulkier physically.

:sneasel: Finally got around to using this thing and its an amazing breaker to support physical sweepers. Forcing physical walls to take a strong Knock Off while also having power ice STAB and priority and Low Kick to nuke Steel-types makes this thing very potent if supported properly/

Just a small post for now cheers
 
1658079431137.png
A- ->B

Grimmsnarl is one of these wallbreakers everyone is naturally prepped for with mudsdale,sylveon,stakataka,talonflame being super splashable and he doesn't carry any defensive utility.Checking Indeedee is fine but Drapion and Scrafty already does that and offers more to many teams with toxic spikes,poison type,knock off,better bulk....Defensive Bulk up sets tend to make teams much passive because Grimm doesn't offer much defensively and doesn't get knock off to make progress (CurseLax can spread paralysis at least).Offensive ones lack instant firepower and need a team builded around it since he is too slow and frail to sweep.So he is often forced to run choice sets (easy to scout and exploitable) or screens HO.

NUPL shows how mediocre is Grimmsnarl with 5 uses only during the 7 weeks + playoff included
| 27 | Grimmsnarl | 1 | 4.17% | 100.00% |
| 21 | Grimmsnarl | 2 | 8.33% | 50.00% |
(semi-finals stats not updated yet here's replays with Grimmsnarl
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-635984
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-636026 )
 
Last edited:
Tiering Update:
Sheet found here. We've added zS to the VR council in place of poh, and we thank both of them for their assistance with maintaining the Viability Rankings. With that, let's tackle the update.

Rises:
:mudsdale: S- -> S
:salazzle: A -> A+
:snorlax: A- -> A
:exeggutor-alola: B+ -> A-
:silvally-steel: steel C+ -> B
:lycanroc: C -> C+
:sneasel: C -> C+
:gastrodon: UR -> B+
:virizion: UR -> C+
:zoroark: UR -> C
:druddigon: UR -> C

Drops:

:silvally-ground: ground S- -> A+
:talonflame: S- -> A+
:escavalier: A+ -> A
:diancie: A -> A-
:quagsire: A -> A-
:blastoise: A- -> B+
:grimmsnarl: A- -> B+
:dhelmise: B+ -> B
:golurk: B+ -> B
:duraludon: B -> B-
:froslass: B- -> C+
:sandaconda: B- -> C+
:rhydon: B- -> C
:doublade: C+ -> C
:ferroseed: C+ -> C
:ninjask: C+ -> C
:tangela: C+ -> C
:vanilluxe: C+ -> C
:cofagrigus: C -> UR


Rises:
:mudsdale: S- -> S: mudsdale is a really cool horse and is so fat u wouldn't even believe
:salazzle: A -> A+: ren-chon has said many questionable things about Salazzle that probably influenced this decision
:snorlax: A- -> A: what a fat guy, I'm sure he 6-0s teams and runs whirlpool
:exeggutor-alola: B+ -> A-: idc smoke weed family
:silvally-steel: steel C+ -> B: this guy still sucks why'd we do this
:lycanroc: C -> C+: this guy also sucks but people love sand a lot
:sneasel: C -> C+: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-nu-viability-ranking-thread.3676265/post-9246925
:gastrodon: UR -> B+: when's the last time you've actually seen a slug, like actually in real life, i bet its been longer than you would've thought
:virizion: UR -> C+: god we have too many grasses, and imagine actually losing the 1v1 to talonflame kinda cringe
:zoroark: UR -> C: togkey was a prophet
:druddigon: UR -> C: xatu tier go brrrr

Drops:
:silvally-ground: ground S- -> A+: banned in 3 weeks or something so who cares
:talonflame: S- -> A+: dumb bird that sucks even though it fits on every team known to man
:escavalier: A+ -> A: oh no its too hot outside :(
:diancie: A -> A-: diancie despite being a fairy-type would probably be xenophobic, it gives me bad vibes
:quagsire: A -> A-: what is a quagsire anyways
:blastoise: A- -> B+: fuck blastoise i never want to hear about this thing again please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please
:grimmsnarl: A- -> B+: the only thing the nom down post did is show this thing had a surprising 80% win rate
:dhelmise: B+ -> B: i hate grass types so much at least this one has knock
:golurk: B+ -> B: everyone use av pls
:duraludon: B -> B-: this guy's still good bc everyone uses the pdef slug for some reason
:froslass: B- -> C+: HO is irrelevant fuck off
:sandaconda: B- -> C+: fad + dragalge is gone + you fell off + L + ratio
:rhydon: B- -> C: only one person has ever liked this pokemon in the history of the modern version of this tier
:doublade: C+ -> C: doublade has never been good
:ferroseed: C+ -> C: xatu tier moment
:ninjask: C+ -> C: i forgot this is still ranked but whatever
:tangela: C+ -> C: what does this do anymore
:vanilluxe: C+ -> C: ice cream is just so weak it does 0 damage and hail sucks idk
:cofagrigus: C -> UR: sabella using the same team for the wrong meta twice in a row was pretty funny i think


Rises:
:mudsdale: S- -> S: Mudsdale is one of the biggest sources of glue in the current metagame, walling an astounding amount of the physical breaker pool. It can even stand its own against Pokemon like Decidueye, Virizion, and Dhelmise which have STAB moves to beat it, as well as serving as a soft check to certain special breakers such as Salazzle and Heliolisk. This nom is mostly due to the sheer utility and defensive solidity that Mudsdale gives balance teams in their cores at the moment.
:salazzle: A -> A+: Salazzle is a Pokemon that never struggles to make progress, especially by poisoning checks with Sludge Bomb, but some set diversity has made it work somewhat better. For example, Knock Off can permanently cripple the opposing Water-type and make them a lot less efficient, and Encore can lock Vaporeon into Wish to set up for a sweep versus such builds.
:snorlax: A- -> A: Snorlax is just a very solid Pokemon, sometimes serving almost like a Steel-type on teams while offering a bulky win condition with flexible moves. For instance, Snorlax can run Earthquake to break Steel-types easier on Curse sets, or run something such as Seed Bomb to defeat Quagsire cores. It can be hard to beat as a Pokemon without proper preparation, hence the rise.
:exeggutor-alola: B+ -> A-: This is an obvious candidate for a rise after the ban of Dragalge, making Exeggutor-Alola the best Dragon-type in the tier. It exploits Vaporeon balance cores and resists Rotom-Mow, and has very good coverage for almost every Pokemon. Although it can struggle versus Sylveon, set exploration for Exeggutor is rampant and its role on balances and bulky offenses cannot be understated.
:silvally-steel: steel C+ -> B: RestTalk SD sets have been getting a lot more use lately, turning Silvally-Steel from a mediocre pivot into a powerful win condition. The emergence of this set in tours such as NUPL have made way for this rise.
:lycanroc: C -> C+: Sand as an archetype is starting to get more consistent, and Lycanroc is one of the tools that makes sand what it is. Although it struggles severely versus Ground-types, it can rely on teammates to assist in breaking through due to the playstyle.
:sneasel: C -> C+: Sneasel is just a fast Pokemon with a powerful dual STAB, sporting one of the most powerful Knock Offs in the tier. Although it can be a bit hard to use, relying on either Wide Lens for consistency or risking a high chance to miss with its Ice-type STAB, Choice Band sets can be near impossible to switch into.
:gastrodon: UR -> B+: Gastrodon is a new face to the tier, adding a different flavor of Water/Ground type than Quagsire does. Sporting a naturally higher special bulk plus Storm Drain, its able to efficiently take on special Water-type and Fire-type Pokemon, while still being able to check a lot of the same Pokemon Quagsire can with the downside of not being able to wall setup Pokemon.
:virizion: UR -> C+: Virizion has seen a lot more use with Gastrodon + Stakataka or Quagsire + Stakataka cores being very common, as well as Rotom-Mow being used as the primary speed control. Virizion is fast, and its STABs line up perfectly to pressure most teams for a chance to SD.
:zoroark: UR -> C: Zoroark has always been a rather controversial Pokemon, seeing very little use outside of low ladder, but it always turns up to get some fringe tournament play. By its sheer stats and ability, its hard to completely write it off.
:druddigon: UR -> C: Druddigon will always have a niche in a tier with Xatu, setting Stealth Rocks as a guarantee against teams who may struggle once they're up.

Drops:
:silvally-ground: ground S- -> A+: Silvally-Ground is probably still the best A+ Pokemon in the tier, but its effectiveness is a little downplayed by how hard it can be to make a defensive core with Silvally-Ground compared to the omnipresent Mudsdale. It has a large impact on the tier, but breakers such as Exeggutor-Alola and the prevalence of Rotom-Mow also keep it down.
:talonflame: S- -> A+: Talonflame is a bit of an odd Pokemon, especially with the prevalence of Stakataka in the tier. It doesn't strictly wall anything anymore, moreso offering revenge killing and utility through its Flame Body ability. However, this impact isn't as useful as it once was, along with Machamp not caring about a burn meaning that it doesn't serve as a great Fighting-type check anymore.
:escavalier: A+ -> A: Escavalier rose in usage due to the presence of Dragalge, and now its usage has dropped off after its ban. This was widely predicted, since Dragalge does not have a Fire-type move, and now the Dragon-types used now all do. However, it can still be a useful tool as it hosts a lack of weaknesses that other Steel-types have.
:diancie: A -> A-: Diancie has been on a steady downturn since Stakataka entered the tier as the definitive non-Mudsdale Stealth Rock setter. Although its offensive presence is impressive, it relies a lot on Diamond Storm boosts in order to be threatening. It also struggles a bit with not having enough resistances, with Rock and Fairy balancing each other's resistances off in an undesirable way for the current state of the metagame.
:quagsire: A -> A-: Quagsire just struggles a bit with Gastrodon's entry into the tier, though it serves as the better Water/Ground type for the time being. It still walls the same things, but the prevalence of Grass-types in the current tier can make it quite difficult.
:blastoise: A- -> B+: Blastoise just struggles to do the job its supposed to, often running into hard walls and needing a stroke of luck to carry through with properly breaking opposing cores.
:grimmsnarl: A- -> B+: A Pokemon that was possibly overrated from the beginning, it relies on Choice Band to break through most cores and needs to have the correct predictions every time to do so. Grimmsnarl's lack of Knock Off is also quite striking, making it hard to justify over some other non-choiced breakers such as Drapion.
:dhelmise: B+ -> B: Decidueye just struggles a lot with Grass-type competition, with all of Rotom-Mow, Exeggutor-Alola, and Tsareena being good. Poltergeist has become less useful over time, and Tsareena can do the role of Power Whip + Knock Off just fine.
:golurk: B+ -> B: Golurk has seen a bit of a role shift recently, with Choice Band still being used but becoming less popular due to the power of the other Ground-types. Instead, there's been a pivot to AV sets as the primary use-case, but these sets arguably provide overall less than what a Mudsdale might bring to the team.
:duraludon: B -> B-: Duraludon faces competition with Exeggutor-Alola for the Dragon-type, and often struggles as it's role as a Steel-type doesn't work in the current metagame due to its dual Dragon-typing. Although it still breaks well, it struggles to break Gastrodon, which can make it a bit harder to use right now.
:froslass: B- -> C+: Hyper Offense as an archetype has been seeing a bit less use, and this makes Froslass in general harder to justify. It also faces competition from Pokemon such as Kabutops for a proper Hyper Offense lead.
:sandaconda: B- -> C+: Sandaconda is another Pokemon impacted by the Dragalge ban, as it used the speed tier it has over other Stealth Rocks setting Ground-types to carve a niche, being able to outspeed and threaten Dragalge.
:rhydon: B- -> C: Rhydon hasn't been that good for a while, and this drop reflects it. Its just very awkward to use as it doesn't provide the defensive utility that any other Ground-type provides, and it cannot switch in on Steel-types which makes building a challenge.
:doublade: C+ -> C: Doublade doesn't like the departure of Dragalge, as being immune to Focus Blast gave Doublade the only niche its had in a long time.
:ferroseed: C+ -> C: Ferroseed just doesn't work that well right now. Its 4 times weak to Fire-type moves, and it cannot set up at all versus Xatu. The main saving grace for it in the current metagame is that Choice Scarf Rotom-Mow is the main removal in the tier currently, meaning that it can often get Spikes up and make it a chore to remove them.
:ninjask: C+ -> C: Ninjask just struggles to set up to sweep against the tier currently, with Mudsdale and Stakataka being relatively common in the tier. It also struggles against the relative rise of usage of Pokemon such as Aerodactyl over the past few months.
:tangela: C+ -> C: Tangela is hard to justify due to the density of the Grass-type slot, with every other Grass-type providing much more instead of being confined to a relatively specialized role.
:vanilluxe: C+ -> C: Vanilluxe just doesn't break like its supposed to, with most Steel-types resisting its moves and Vaporeon being able to handle it without much of an issue if Stealth Rocks aren't set up.
:cofagrigus: C -> UR: Cofagrigus worked better when Trick and Darkest Lariat weren't as common, and now struggles to work as a setup Pokemon compared to Scrafty and Snorlax.
 
:sceptile: UR -> C+

Sceptile is a very capable late game cleaner when it can get set up. Even when running Adamant it can outspeed the entire tier bar Raichu Alola. A good grass STAB in Leaf Blade backed by Swords Dance lets it score OHKOs on both Vaporeon and Mudsdale after a boost, and Earthquake cleans up Steels. It has a pool of decent coverage moves to hit potential checks, too.

Despite these strengths, Sceptile is a niche choice that needs support and smart play to work. A terrain setter like Indeedee is a required teammate to help trigger Unburden, and Sceptile really only gets a single attempt to sweep. Without Unburden, Sceptile can be revenge killed by faster Pokemon like Talonflame or Scarf Passimian, and without a Swords Dance it fails to break through many of the walls it's intended to counter unless they're significantly weakened. Sceptile also cannot take enough coverage moves to answer all its checks: without Rock Slide it's stopped dead by Talonflame, without Earthquake it's stopped by Steels, and without Acrobatics it's stopped by Vileplume and to a lesser extent other bulky Grass types. These checks absolutely must be weakened or removed before Sceptile attempts a sweep or it will end up being dead weight. Speaking of which, Sceptile is really not useful outside of its role as a clean up crew, so in matchups with a lot of checks present it can feel like playing 5v6.

It's definitely not a good fit for most teams but Sceptile's ability to sweep through common defensive backbones and its lack of offensive checks make it worth a nod in my opinion.
 
Tiering Update:
Sheet found here. We've added zS to the VR council in place of poh, and we thank both of them for their assistance with maintaining the Viability Rankings. With that, let's tackle the update.

Rises:
:mudsdale: S- -> S
:salazzle: A -> A+
:snorlax: A- -> A
:exeggutor-alola: B+ -> A-
:silvally-steel: steel C+ -> B
:lycanroc: C -> C+
:sneasel: C -> C+
:gastrodon: UR -> B+
:virizion: UR -> C+
:zoroark: UR -> C
:druddigon: UR -> C

Drops:

:silvally-ground: ground S- -> A+
:talonflame: S- -> A+
:escavalier: A+ -> A
:diancie: A -> A-
:quagsire: A -> A-
:blastoise: A- -> B+
:grimmsnarl: A- -> B+
:dhelmise: B+ -> B
:golurk: B+ -> B
:duraludon: B -> B-
:froslass: B- -> C+
:sandaconda: B- -> C+
:rhydon: B- -> C
:doublade: C+ -> C
:ferroseed: C+ -> C
:ninjask: C+ -> C
:tangela: C+ -> C
:vanilluxe: C+ -> C
:cofagrigus: C -> UR


Rises:
:mudsdale: S- -> S: mudsdale is a really cool horse and is so fat u wouldn't even believe
:salazzle: A -> A+: ren-chon has said many questionable things about Salazzle that probably influenced this decision
:snorlax: A- -> A: what a fat guy, I'm sure he 6-0s teams and runs whirlpool
:exeggutor-alola: B+ -> A-: idc smoke weed family
:silvally-steel: steel C+ -> B: this guy still sucks why'd we do this
:lycanroc: C -> C+: this guy also sucks but people love sand a lot
:sneasel: C -> C+: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-nu-viability-ranking-thread.3676265/post-9246925
:gastrodon: UR -> B+: when's the last time you've actually seen a slug, like actually in real life, i bet its been longer than you would've thought
:virizion: UR -> C+: god we have too many grasses, and imagine actually losing the 1v1 to talonflame kinda cringe
:zoroark: UR -> C: togkey was a prophet
:druddigon: UR -> C: xatu tier go brrrr

Drops:
:silvally-ground: ground S- -> A+: banned in 3 weeks or something so who cares
:talonflame: S- -> A+: dumb bird that sucks even though it fits on every team known to man
:escavalier: A+ -> A: oh no its too hot outside :(
:diancie: A -> A-: diancie despite being a fairy-type would probably be xenophobic, it gives me bad vibes
:quagsire: A -> A-: what is a quagsire anyways
:blastoise: A- -> B+: fuck blastoise i never want to hear about this thing again please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please please
:grimmsnarl: A- -> B+: the only thing the nom down post did is show this thing had a surprising 80% win rate
:dhelmise: B+ -> B: i hate grass types so much at least this one has knock
:golurk: B+ -> B: everyone use av pls
:duraludon: B -> B-: this guy's still good bc everyone uses the pdef slug for some reason
:froslass: B- -> C+: HO is irrelevant fuck off
:sandaconda: B- -> C+: fad + dragalge is gone + you fell off + L + ratio
:rhydon: B- -> C: only one person has ever liked this pokemon in the history of the modern version of this tier
:doublade: C+ -> C: doublade has never been good
:ferroseed: C+ -> C: xatu tier moment
:ninjask: C+ -> C: i forgot this is still ranked but whatever
:tangela: C+ -> C: what does this do anymore
:vanilluxe: C+ -> C: ice cream is just so weak it does 0 damage and hail sucks idk
:cofagrigus: C -> UR: sabella using the same team for the wrong meta twice in a row was pretty funny i think


Rises:
:mudsdale: S- -> S: Mudsdale is one of the biggest sources of glue in the current metagame, walling an astounding amount of the physical breaker pool. It can even stand its own against Pokemon like Decidueye, Virizion, and Dhelmise which have STAB moves to beat it, as well as serving as a soft check to certain special breakers such as Salazzle and Heliolisk. This nom is mostly due to the sheer utility and defensive solidity that Mudsdale gives balance teams in their cores at the moment.
:salazzle: A -> A+: Salazzle is a Pokemon that never struggles to make progress, especially by poisoning checks with Sludge Bomb, but some set diversity has made it work somewhat better. For example, Knock Off can permanently cripple the opposing Water-type and make them a lot less efficient, and Encore can lock Vaporeon into Wish to set up for a sweep versus such builds.
:snorlax: A- -> A: Snorlax is just a very solid Pokemon, sometimes serving almost like a Steel-type on teams while offering a bulky win condition with flexible moves. For instance, Snorlax can run Earthquake to break Steel-types easier on Curse sets, or run something such as Seed Bomb to defeat Quagsire cores. It can be hard to beat as a Pokemon without proper preparation, hence the rise.
:exeggutor-alola: B+ -> A-: This is an obvious candidate for a rise after the ban of Dragalge, making Exeggutor-Alola the best Dragon-type in the tier. It exploits Vaporeon balance cores and resists Rotom-Mow, and has very good coverage for almost every Pokemon. Although it can struggle versus Sylveon, set exploration for Exeggutor is rampant and its role on balances and bulky offenses cannot be understated.
:silvally-steel: steel C+ -> B: RestTalk SD sets have been getting a lot more use lately, turning Silvally-Steel from a mediocre pivot into a powerful win condition. The emergence of this set in tours such as NUPL have made way for this rise.
:lycanroc: C -> C+: Sand as an archetype is starting to get more consistent, and Lycanroc is one of the tools that makes sand what it is. Although it struggles severely versus Ground-types, it can rely on teammates to assist in breaking through due to the playstyle.
:sneasel: C -> C+: Sneasel is just a fast Pokemon with a powerful dual STAB, sporting one of the most powerful Knock Offs in the tier. Although it can be a bit hard to use, relying on either Wide Lens for consistency or risking a high chance to miss with its Ice-type STAB, Choice Band sets can be near impossible to switch into.
:gastrodon: UR -> B+: Gastrodon is a new face to the tier, adding a different flavor of Water/Ground type than Quagsire does. Sporting a naturally higher special bulk plus Storm Drain, its able to efficiently take on special Water-type and Fire-type Pokemon, while still being able to check a lot of the same Pokemon Quagsire can with the downside of not being able to wall setup Pokemon.
:virizion: UR -> C+: Virizion has seen a lot more use with Gastrodon + Stakataka or Quagsire + Stakataka cores being very common, as well as Rotom-Mow being used as the primary speed control. Virizion is fast, and its STABs line up perfectly to pressure most teams for a chance to SD.
:zoroark: UR -> C: Zoroark has always been a rather controversial Pokemon, seeing very little use outside of low ladder, but it always turns up to get some fringe tournament play. By its sheer stats and ability, its hard to completely write it off.
:druddigon: UR -> C: Druddigon will always have a niche in a tier with Xatu, setting Stealth Rocks as a guarantee against teams who may struggle once they're up.

Drops:
:silvally-ground: ground S- -> A+: Silvally-Ground is probably still the best A+ Pokemon in the tier, but its effectiveness is a little downplayed by how hard it can be to make a defensive core with Silvally-Ground compared to the omnipresent Mudsdale. It has a large impact on the tier, but breakers such as Exeggutor-Alola and the prevalence of Rotom-Mow also keep it down.
:talonflame: S- -> A+: Talonflame is a bit of an odd Pokemon, especially with the prevalence of Stakataka in the tier. It doesn't strictly wall anything anymore, moreso offering revenge killing and utility through its Flame Body ability. However, this impact isn't as useful as it once was, along with Machamp not caring about a burn meaning that it doesn't serve as a great Fighting-type check anymore.
:escavalier: A+ -> A: Escavalier rose in usage due to the presence of Dragalge, and now its usage has dropped off after its ban. This was widely predicted, since Dragalge does not have a Fire-type move, and now the Dragon-types used now all do. However, it can still be a useful tool as it hosts a lack of weaknesses that other Steel-types have.
:diancie: A -> A-: Diancie has been on a steady downturn since Stakataka entered the tier as the definitive non-Mudsdale Stealth Rock setter. Although its offensive presence is impressive, it relies a lot on Diamond Storm boosts in order to be threatening. It also struggles a bit with not having enough resistances, with Rock and Fairy balancing each other's resistances off in an undesirable way for the current state of the metagame.
:quagsire: A -> A-: Quagsire just struggles a bit with Gastrodon's entry into the tier, though it serves as the better Water/Ground type for the time being. It still walls the same things, but the prevalence of Grass-types in the current tier can make it quite difficult.
:blastoise: A- -> B+: Blastoise just struggles to do the job its supposed to, often running into hard walls and needing a stroke of luck to carry through with properly breaking opposing cores.
:grimmsnarl: A- -> B+: A Pokemon that was possibly overrated from the beginning, it relies on Choice Band to break through most cores and needs to have the correct predictions every time to do so. Grimmsnarl's lack of Knock Off is also quite striking, making it hard to justify over some other non-choiced breakers such as Drapion.
:dhelmise: B+ -> B: Decidueye just struggles a lot with Grass-type competition, with all of Rotom-Mow, Exeggutor-Alola, and Tsareena being good. Poltergeist has become less useful over time, and Tsareena can do the role of Power Whip + Knock Off just fine.
:golurk: B+ -> B: Golurk has seen a bit of a role shift recently, with Choice Band still being used but becoming less popular due to the power of the other Ground-types. Instead, there's been a pivot to AV sets as the primary use-case, but these sets arguably provide overall less than what a Mudsdale might bring to the team.
:duraludon: B -> B-: Duraludon faces competition with Exeggutor-Alola for the Dragon-type, and often struggles as it's role as a Steel-type doesn't work in the current metagame due to its dual Dragon-typing. Although it still breaks well, it struggles to break Gastrodon, which can make it a bit harder to use right now.
:froslass: B- -> C+: Hyper Offense as an archetype has been seeing a bit less use, and this makes Froslass in general harder to justify. It also faces competition from Pokemon such as Kabutops for a proper Hyper Offense lead.
:sandaconda: B- -> C+: Sandaconda is another Pokemon impacted by the Dragalge ban, as it used the speed tier it has over other Stealth Rocks setting Ground-types to carve a niche, being able to outspeed and threaten Dragalge.
:rhydon: B- -> C: Rhydon hasn't been that good for a while, and this drop reflects it. Its just very awkward to use as it doesn't provide the defensive utility that any other Ground-type provides, and it cannot switch in on Steel-types which makes building a challenge.
:doublade: C+ -> C: Doublade doesn't like the departure of Dragalge, as being immune to Focus Blast gave Doublade the only niche its had in a long time.
:ferroseed: C+ -> C: Ferroseed just doesn't work that well right now. Its 4 times weak to Fire-type moves, and it cannot set up at all versus Xatu. The main saving grace for it in the current metagame is that Choice Scarf Rotom-Mow is the main removal in the tier currently, meaning that it can often get Spikes up and make it a chore to remove them.
:ninjask: C+ -> C: Ninjask just struggles to set up to sweep against the tier currently, with Mudsdale and Stakataka being relatively common in the tier. It also struggles against the relative rise of usage of Pokemon such as Aerodactyl over the past few months.
:tangela: C+ -> C: Tangela is hard to justify due to the density of the Grass-type slot, with every other Grass-type providing much more instead of being confined to a relatively specialized role.
:vanilluxe: C+ -> C: Vanilluxe just doesn't break like its supposed to, with most Steel-types resisting its moves and Vaporeon being able to handle it without much of an issue if Stealth Rocks aren't set up.
:cofagrigus: C -> UR: Cofagrigus worked better when Trick and Darkest Lariat weren't as common, and now struggles to work as a setup Pokemon compared to Scrafty and Snorlax.
Just a quick thing, "
1659194095169.png
Decidueye just struggles a lot with Grass-type competition." Just trying to clear up which ghost/grass type you meant. Cheers!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top