Metagame SS Monotype Suspect #3 - Urshifu-S

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Floss

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:ss/urshifu:
Since its introduction into SS Monotype via the Isle of Armor DLC, Urshifu-Single-Strike has cemented itself as one of the most threatening Pokemon in the metagame. A staple on Dark and Fighting teams, Urshifu-S's unique ability Unseen Fist enables it to bypass protection through the use of contact moves, which comprise its strongest STAB attacks in Wicked Blow and Close Combat, along with a great utility move in U-Turn to maintain momentum. Therefore, it is nearly impossible to scout Urshifu-S easily due to the lack of Pokemon that can reliably switch into its moves for many types. Urshifu-S's signature attack Wicked Blow has the added benefit of always being a critical hit, therefore effectively being a 120 BP move that ignores an Attack drop or Defense boosts for the other team. A solid speed tier of 97 allows it to outpace the likes of Tapu Lele, Kyurem, and Landorus-T, while a staggering 130 attack ensures that it can 2HKO numerous physical walls with a Choice Band, such as Celesteela, Toxapex, and Skarmory. Coverage options such as Poison Jab and Iron Head can hit bulky mons that resist its STAB attacks for significant damage, like Clefable, Tapu Fini, and Weezing-Galar.

Urshifu-S can run a variety of sets, making use of Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and Bulk Up, each for different purposes. Choice Band is one of the best wall-breakers in the metagame which can bulldoze through bulkier teams. Choice Scarf serves as important speed control for Dark, being able to outspeed Choice Scarf Tapu Lele and OHKO with Rocks chip, as well as running through types such as Psychic and Ghost without much opposition. Bulk Up makes Urshifu-S a dangerous setup sweeper, boosting its naturally stout physical bulk of 100/100 while opening up the option of using Sucker Punch, which can deal with faster mons that don't appreciate physical attacks. The number of sets available to it, along with the solid team support that Dark offers with a defensive backbone of Mandibuzz and Tyranitar as well as a Screens setting option in Grimmsnarl means that Urshifu-S is a threat that can easily carve through any team. The community also shares this viewpoint, with 55% of survey participants rating Urshifu-S as a 5 or above on a scale of 1-7 for viability, with 1 being not broken and 7 being very broken. With the consideration of all of these factors, the Monotype council has chosen to suspect Urshifu-S.

Feel free to post in this thread with your thoughts on Urshifu-S in Monotype. You are encouraged to post replays to prove your point.

In order to cast a vote in this suspect test, you must participate on the [Gen 8] Monotype ladder in which Urshifu-S will continue to be allowed. You must make a new account to ladder with. This account's registration date must be at earliest the day this suspect begins. You must prefix your account name with the tag: USG8 in order for your account to qualify.

Acceptable:
USG8 Floss

Unacceptable:
Floss USG8

The requirement for qualification is at least 82% GXE and at least 45 games played. The suspect test will last two weeks until Thursday May 13th @ 11:59 PM EDT (GMT -4). You will then have three days to cast your vote. Urshifu-S will require a 60% majority of voters in favor of banning it in order for it to be banned from Monotype.

Upon meeting the requirements, you must post proof of the qualification in the Voter Identification thread, which is separate from this thread and will be created closer to the end of the suspect. Do not post your proof in this discussion thread.

You may use this thread to discuss this Urshifu-S suspect or ask for clarification for any questions you may have.

You may not use this thread to post one-liners or discuss topics unrelated to this specific suspect, such as possible future suspects.

Please stay respectful when you post and follow all Monotype forum rules. Please also make sure to follow the Monotype tiering philosophy found here.
 
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mushamu

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Going to keep this concise since these are just initial thoughts but I'm currently leaning ban on Urshifu mainly because of its Choice Band set which has hardly any switchins in the metagame right off the bat. Each time it comes in on something slower it's pretty much "try to predict right or it claims a Pokemon" because its STAB combination, sheer power, and Unseen Fist making it both unscoutable and nullifying the Leftovers recovery a Pokemon would get from using a Protect move, restricts defensive counterplay to a whole new level. In some matchups, it doesn't need to predict at all since its sheer power and STAB combination is enough to claim one every time. Outside of types like Dark, Steel, Normal, Ice, Psychic and Ghost which Dark / Fighting STABs would typically cover, other types like Ground, Fire, Dragon, and Flying cannot switch into Choice Band Wicked Blow reliably at all, so you're forced to either sack or let something get chipped massively if Urshifu gets a free turn. Urshifu is generally a Pokemon that has a really low risk and a very high reward due to its restricted counterplay, and the fact that Choice Band comes in against slower Pokemon in multiple matchups and kinda just claims or heavily dents something is not really how I would like Monotype, much less competitive Pokemon to be played. I believe this metagame would be more healthy without it. Kinda tired so some things might sound weird but I might post more later after other people share their thoughts as well.
 
Will be posting my experience for Monotype Poison only.
Weezing -G is a Nice counter against Urshifu. It's Very rare that an Urshifu carries Iron Head, no other move can handle weezing Very well. I have faced Iron head Urshifus before, but then I can bring pex on It, since It does not OHKO in weezing. Of course weezing will be sent out alot of times against dark/fighting MU, but we, monopoison players, know that weezing must be preserved for Urshifu.
I'd say that the worst situation is against fighting MU with toxicroak, wich can 2 HKO weezing, If not OHKO when +2 attack, that can be devastating for weezing since most of croaks also carries earthquake, making pex useless. And If weezing is gone, the MU against Urshifu can be a straight loss.

Other mons that can handle It are Drapion that wont be critical hitted by a WB and can switch in It. But CC will KO It.

Having said that i think that monopoison MU against fighting/dark will be more efective. But i think that Urshifu doesn't make the MU more complicated, it's its partners that can make Urshifu more efective If they get rid off weezing
 

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To add to Decem's post, in my experience using band shifu, claiming kills while pivoting in on slower pokemon is one method, but another thing is Urshifu has a surprising amount of physical bulk allowing you to kind of just stay in on certain faster mons and pick them off regardless, since Urshifu doesn't particularly need its health in most matchups. Examples being stuff Zeraora, Scarf Lando, DD Dragapult, Scarf Drill etc. Along with that, looking at how offensive monotype has become in response to the amount of unwallable breakers, even scarf just kind of dents most teams and a lot of types have literally no response to scarf Urshifu at all. Ghost, Psychic, and Dragon for the most part all maybe have 1 counterplay option for scarf Urshifu, and if we are speaking in regards to mono dark, the defensive backbone supporting Urshifu can easily stop those. Then you have types like steel and flying that rely entirely on predicting the right move coming out, only for the Urshifu to not be choice locked at all and basically insta win. I don't think there is a single matchup where Urshifu doesn't claim kills, and even if the types in question carry a bulky fairy, like clef fairy/g-weez poison, the latter of which loses to mono dark anyways (not commenting on mono fighting here because I lack experience with it) U-Turning on the forced switch in and repositioning yourself is just super free.

Essentially, Urshifu is just incredibly low risk-high reward, there really is no predicting on your end vs most types, you can kind of just mash stabs and force progress vs both fat teams/types and offensive ones. The only real counterplay seems to be to hope it doesn't have the set that beats your team, or trade a pokemon to kill it. So yeah, uh, I believe we should be voting ban on the bear.
 
I'll be speaking mostly in terms of types that I have been laddering with lately, so if I miss some stuff you'll have to forgive me. Please note that I am specifically talking about the Dark matchup for all of these types

To deal with Urshifu you basically have to pray that your opponent is scarfed and not the bulk up or banded sets, because mandibuzz gets 2HKOd by close combat from the boost from band and bulk up and can really just roost in Urshifu's face or be running toxic and lose momentum. Otherwise there are no switch ins to this mon because Skarmory recieves the same fate as Mandibuzz if the Urshifu is banded. Lately I have been running Substitute Bulk up Galarian Zapdos to help curb the threat of Urshifu and dark in general sinec Mandibuzz is just fodder for substitute, however in most matchups its not very helpful. Here is a replay of that set in action:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1330752655-v4zplnj8k61r8o3l50okooj7tndnevapw
Granted, this is still low ladder so y'know... probably isn't the best answer to dealing with this matchup

Toxapex can soft check Urshifu only if the opposing Urshifu is scarfed, Pex can get 2HKOd by Wicked Blow if banded and has to constantly recover and haze against the bulk up set in order to survive. Tapu fini is the best thing to a defensive check water has for Urshifu but the opponent can bring a tech like poison jab as the original post mentioned, Tapu Fini can also function somewhat as a scarfer in my experience which makes this specific matchup a lot more managable as far as offensively checking dark since it doesnt need set up, but keep in mind thats its inferior to the calm mind set that it likes to run. Fini is also suseptible to both chip damage from rocks and sandstorm so it can't repeatedly switch into Urshifu without some sort of consequence. This is part of what makes Urshifu unhealthy which I'll get into in my general thoughts later.

There are no switch-ins on electric, you can only offensively check Urshifu with Tapu Koko's Dazzling Gleam, Zeraora's Close Combat/Play Rough, Zapdos can OHKO with both Hurricane and Thunderbolt if specs 68% of the time, and finally Raichu can KO the bear if it isn't running sucker punch. Speaking of sucker punch, almost all of these mons excluding Koko don't like dealing with sucker punch because they generally appreciate having their health, and a mon has to either be sacked or take heavy damage to get them in if Urshifu is in on something like a Rotom or an Air Balloon Magnezone. Overall this type handles Urshifu decently because of its offensive options, but its still going to hurt every time Urshifu comes in.

Kommo-o gets 2HKOd by banded Close Combat if the Kommo-o is defensive, offensive Kommo-o gets OHKOd by Close Combat 50% of the time. Other than that you're going to have to offensively check Urshifu which is easier said than done due to Urshifu's respectable 100/100/60 bulk. Unless if you're running some sort of Dracovish, breaking through the Spdef Ttar and Phys Def Mandibuzz core is difficult because of a lot of what would be Urshifu's offensive checks on this type hate dealing with the combo of those three mons. Dual Wingbeat Dragonite can deal with urshifu to an extent if multiscale is active, but sandstorm chip breaks multiscale and Mandibuzz hard walls you either way. If you can chip Urshifu beforehand you can deal with it, but doing that with Dark's balanced core is more difficult to pull off than it needs to be when Urshifu can just click buttons mindlessly.

Just click x and make yourself a sandwich instead. You're really only dealing with this if your opponent has no idea what they're doing and you're better off doing something else with your time.

Ghost: You arent winning the dark matchup anyway, Mimikyu isn't saving you here

Poison: The regen core gets destroyed by dark with all of its options, and Weezing can only do so much after its black sludge gets knocked off.

Psychic: If your opponent is scarf Urshifu, congrats you just lost your Tapu Lele and the rest of your hopes of winning. If you're specs lele and its banded Urshifu, the same outcome. You could do something with focus sash zam, but at that point you're still going to die to whatever speed control dark has later on.

My general thoughts on Urshifu are that its a flawed pokemon with a good amount of offensive checks, however its ability to break through the best physically defensive walls in the game with sandstorm and stealth rocks racking up damage, support from slow U-Turners from mandibuzz, thunder wave support from Ttar and Grimmsnarl, and Dual screens making Urshifu even harder to kill pushes it over the edge considering the fact that it can just spam wicked blow in most instances without any drawbacks. Scouting for the moveset that may just break your team is very difficult to do since Unseen Fists makes the usage of protect useless which I consider unhealthy for the metagame, which is why if I get reqs I will be voting ban.
 
Can we see scenarios and examples where Urshifu makes an actual difference when it's foregone,? This is assuming that this is mainly Dark we're focusing on as that seems to be the main type Urshifu is being talked about.

To deal with Urshifu you basically have to pray that your opponent is scarfed and not the bulk up or banded sets, because mandibuzz gets 2HKOd by close combat from the boost from band and bulk up and can really just roost in Urshifu's face or be running toxic and lose momentum. Otherwise there are no switch ins to this mon because Skarmory recieves the same fate as Mandibuzz if the Urshifu is banded. Lately I have been running Substitute Bulk up Galarian Zapdos to help curb the threat of Urshifu and dark in general sinec Mandibuzz is just fodder for substitute, however in most matchups its not very helpful. Here is a replay of that set in action:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1330752655-v4zplnj8k61r8o3l50okooj7tndnevapw
Granted, this is still low ladder so y'know... probably isn't the best answer to dealing with this matchup
You don't need Sub BU Zapdos-G to beat Dark, in fact, I think you're doing yourself a disservice by using that instead of band/scarf. With that set, you're losing out on preserving your offensive momentum with U-turn to weed out Urshifu's teammates. With band, you can just click CC away and secure kills against Dark. Zapdos-G's typing allows it to survive two hits from banded Urshifu's STAB, and with Zapdos-G's speed can pressure it out.

Toxapex can soft check Urshifu only if the opposing Urshifu is scarfed, Pex can get 2HKOd by Wicked Blow if banded and has to constantly recover and haze against the bulk up set in order to survive. Tapu fini is the best thing to a defensive check water has for Urshifu but the opponent can bring a tech like poison jab as the original post mentioned, Tapu Fini can also function somewhat as a scarfer in my experience which makes this specific matchup a lot more managable as far as offensively checking dark since it doesnt need set up, but keep in mind thats its inferior to the calm mind set that it likes to run. Fini is also suseptible to both chip damage from rocks and sandstorm so it can't repeatedly switch into Urshifu without some sort of consequence. This is part of what makes Urshifu unhealthy which I'll get into in my general thoughts later.
I'm gonna be honest; if you lose with water with CM draining kiss Tapu Fini against Dark without any hax, then I feel that's more on the player's lack of experience moreso than Urshifu being busted. Tapu Fini shouldn't be pereceived as your Urshifu check but your wincon against Dark and Fighting. Sending Tapu Fini in on a potential banded poison jab is potentially throwing away your wincon in these MUs, unless you're assured with your offensive presence with a rain team. Safely getting Tapu Fini in and setting CM is your goal to win.

Kommo-o gets 2HKOd by banded Close Combat if the Kommo-o is defensive, offensive Kommo-o gets OHKOd by Close Combat 50% of the time. Other than that you're going to have to offensively check Urshifu which is easier said than done due to Urshifu's respectable 100/100/60 bulk. Unless if you're running some sort of Dracovish, breaking through the Spdef Ttar and Phys Def Mandibuzz core is difficult because of a lot of what would be Urshifu's offensive checks on this type hate dealing with the combo of those three mons. Dual Wingbeat Dragonite can deal with urshifu to an extent if multiscale is active, but sandstorm chip breaks multiscale and Mandibuzz hard walls you either way. If you can chip Urshifu beforehand you can deal with it, but doing that with Dark's balanced core is more difficult to pull off than it needs to be when Urshifu can just click buttons mindlessly.
This is one of the examples of where I want to see a type that doesn't already get swatted by Dark without Urshifu when Dark has a fast killer like Weavile and/or scarf Hydreigon for speed control. Is Urshifu really the problem in this MU or does it just help Dark so greatly that Weavile and scarf Hydreigon doesn't even need to come in?

Just click x and make yourself a sandwich instead. You're really only dealing with this if your opponent has no idea what they're doing and you're better off doing something else with your time.

Ghost: You arent winning the dark matchup anyway, Mimikyu isn't saving you here

Poison: The regen core gets destroyed by dark with all of its options, and Weezing can only do so much after its black sludge gets knocked off.

Psychic: If your opponent is scarf Urshifu, congrats you just lost your Tapu Lele and the rest of your hopes of winning. If you're specs lele and its banded Urshifu, the same outcome. You could do something with focus sash zam, but at that point you're still going to die to whatever speed control dark has later on.

My general thoughts on Urshifu are that its a flawed pokemon with a good amount of offensive checks, however its ability to break through the best physically defensive walls in the game with sandstorm and stealth rocks racking up damage, support from slow U-Turners from mandibuzz, thunder wave support from Ttar and Grimmsnarl, and Dual screens making Urshifu even harder to kill pushes it over the edge considering the fact that it can just spam wicked blow in most instances without any drawbacks. Scouting for the moveset that may just break your team is very difficult to do since Unseen Fists makes the usage of protect useless which I consider unhealthy for the metagame, which is why if I get reqs I will be voting ban.
Ghost and Psychic are other types where I want to see whether or not they have a chance against Dark without Urshifu. Was there really a chance for them to win or does Urshifu merely enhances Dark's win? I'm not sure about the Fighting MU, but I can only presume Urshifu doesn't single-handedly carry the MU. There's no point in bringing up Urshifu on Dark against Ghost/Psychic, if Urshifu merely just exacerbates the MU.

For Poison, you use your defensive regen core to scout and softcheck the Urshifu, and then decide whether or not to go to Weezing-G. I'll disagree with the claim that "Weezing can only do so much after its black sludge gets knocked off", as Weezing-G's STAB strange beam does do a lot to Dark. Pain split can help Weezing-G with its longevity and protect can help Weezing-G passively accrue HP and scout knock off. The Poison MU is very much doable against Dark.

Overall, so far I see talk about Urshifu on Dark shreding Ghost, Psychic, Ground, Flying, Dragon and etc, but I don't necessarily think that's a strong argument when there's other threats on Dark these types should be worring about like Weavile, the seldom scarf Hydreigon, and Zarude. Is Urshifu unhealthy or does it merely exacerbate the MU?
 
Can we see scenarios and examples where Urshifu makes an actual difference when it's foregone,? This is assuming that this is mainly Dark we're focusing on as that seems to be the main type Urshifu is being talked about.


You don't need Sub BU Zapdos-G to beat Dark, in fact, I think you're doing yourself a disservice by using that instead of band/scarf. With that set, you're losing out on preserving your offensive momentum with U-turn to weed out Urshifu's teammates. With band, you can just click CC away and secure kills against Dark. Zapdos-G's typing allows it to survive two hits from banded Urshifu's STAB, and with Zapdos-G's speed can pressure it out.


I'm gonna be honest; if you lose with water with CM draining kiss Tapu Fini against Dark without any hax, then I feel that's more on the player's lack of experience moreso than Urshifu being busted. Tapu Fini shouldn't be pereceived as your Urshifu check but your wincon against Dark and Fighting. Sending Tapu Fini in on a potential banded poison jab is potentially throwing away your wincon in these MUs, unless you're assured with your offensive presence with a rain team. Safely getting Tapu Fini in and setting CM is your goal to win.


This is one of the examples of where I want to see a type that doesn't already get swatted by Dark without Urshifu when Dark has a fast killer like Weavile and/or scarf Hydreigon for speed control. Is Urshifu really the problem in this MU or does it just help Dark so greatly that Weavile and scarf Hydreigon doesn't even need to come in?


Ghost and Psychic are other types where I want to see whether or not they have a chance against Dark without Urshifu. Was there really a chance for them to win or does Urshifu merely enhances Dark's win? I'm not sure about the Fighting MU, but I can only presume Urshifu doesn't single-handedly carry the MU. There's no point in bringing up Urshifu on Dark against Ghost/Psychic, if Urshifu merely just exacerbates the MU.

For Poison, you use your defensive regen core to scout and softcheck the Urshifu, and then decide whether or not to go to Weezing-G. I'll disagree with the claim that "Weezing can only do so much after its black sludge gets knocked off", as Weezing-G's STAB strange beam does do a lot to Dark. Pain split can help Weezing-G with its longevity and protect can help Weezing-G passively accrue HP and scout knock off. The Poison MU is very much doable against Dark.

Overall, so far I see talk about Urshifu on Dark shreding Ghost, Psychic, Ground, Flying, Dragon and etc, but I don't necessarily think that's a strong argument when there's other threats on Dark these types should be worring about like Weavile, the seldom scarf Hydreigon, and Zarude. Is Urshifu unhealthy or does it merely exacerbate the MU?
I think the problem here is that rather than seeing how Urshifu solos types, look at how banworthy it is as a Pokemon. Similar to Zapdos or Dracovish, Choice Band Urshifu's job is to come in and click one of its stabs for free, switch, then do it again. It can't be scouted with unseen fist, and like 4 types actually have a sturdy switchin to both of its stabs. It may not be as good as Weavile against flying, but in my opinion the central problem of Urshifu is that it takes away skill from the game. It doesn't bend the meta around it but using Urshifu doesn't reward you for playing well, since all you really do is click your cb wicked blow. Gapdos or weavile do not have this same effect, while types like flying can't switchin to weavile, neither have the same riskless play as shifu since they can be protect scouted, and have reliable switchins like skarmory on steel. So rather than looking at whether Urshifu invalidates certain types(which there obviously are a few) where the mu would normally be winnable, I think we should instead be looking at whether it is competitive as a mon or not.
 
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I think the problem here is that rather than seeing how Urshifu solos types, look at how banworthy it is as a Pokemon. Similar to Zapdos or Dracovish, Choice Band Urshifu's job is to come in and click one of its stabs for free, switch, then do it again. It can't be scouted with unseen fist, and like 4 types actually have a sturdy switchin to both of its stabs. It may not be as good as Weavile against flying, but in my opinion the central problem of Urshifu is that it takes away skill from the game. It doesn't bend the meta around it but using Urshifu doesn't reward you for playing well, since all you really do is click your cb wicked blow. Gapdos or weavile do not have this same effect, while types like flying can't switchin to weavile, neither have the same riskless play as shifu since they can be protect scouted, and have reliable switchins like skarmory on steel. So rather than looking at whether Urshifu invalidates certain types(which there obviously are a few) where the mu would normally be winnable, I think we should instead be looking at whether it is competitive as a mon or not.
Vs Flying, the only prominent user of protect is Celesteela. So really, it mainly just invalidates Celesteela's ability to scout and passively accure HP. That does force Flying to switch into either Mandibuzz to softcheck and scout for Wicked Blow or Zapdos-G to force out Urshifu withour incurring a casualty. But overall, I don't think the Dark v Flying MU is that skewed in favor of Dark to the point where Unseen Fist ultimately invalidates Flying as a whole.

My question to that is: what types suffer because of Unseen Fist's anti-scouting effect? The two ones I can think of are Steel and Flying.
 
Vs Flying, the only prominent user of protect is Celesteela. So really, it mainly just invalidates Celesteela's ability to scout and passively accure HP. That does force Flying to switch into either Mandibuzz to softcheck and scout for Wicked Blow or Zapdos-G to force out Urshifu withour incurring a casualty. But overall, I don't think the Dark v Flying MU is that skewed in favor of Dark to the point where Unseen Fist ultimately invalidates Flying as a whole.

My question to that is: what types suffer because of Unseen Fist's anti-scouting effect? The two ones I can think of are Steel and Flying.
My point wasn't emphasizing that unseen fist makes it unhealthy, but rather that it doesn't reward you for playing well, since all you do anyway is click wicked blow. Whether it invalidates flying or not is not the reason why I think its banworthy, nor is its impact in other matchups. In a vacuum I think the breaking factor here is that every time it hits the field you pick something to take a fuckton before you can respond accordingly, which heavily limits its defensive counterplay. There is very low risk clicking your stabs against a defensive mon but incredibly high reward, and that's something the meta would definitely be better without. A wallbreaker like Weavile or Zapdos-G has switchins to it and very solid defensive counterplay on most types, even if there are a couple where they put a dent in everything. Urshifu on the other hand has limited switchins and incredibly low risk compared to the other two, which is what separates it.

EDIT: gonna respond to Black Rabbit 's post below here since I don't want to flood this thread
Gapdos has a lot more switchins on certain types like celesteela on flying who can scout what it clicks, steel's defensive core being able to play around it, poison can force it to take a lot of chip with bunker pex etc whereas urshifu is not held back by these same factors. Gapdos is also not a mon where you can come in and click force a ko for free like shifu either. Factors like these where Urshifu doesn't have to predict and can just come in and claim something is what differentiates it in my eyes.
 
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In a vacuum I think the breaking factor here is that every time it hits the field you pick something to take a fuckton before you can respond accordingly, which heavily limits its defensive counterplay. There is very low risk clicking your stabs against a defensive mon but incredibly high reward, and that's something the meta would definitely be better without... Urshifu on the other hand has limited switchins and incredibly low risk compared to the other two, which is what separates it.
So you're for a ban mainly because its wallbreaking power with 130 base attack and having a virtual 120 BP Dark (which is by de facto immune to attack drops from effects like Intimidate, which isn't really prevalent either way) and 120 Fighting STAB. Unseen Fist is just another factor as to why you think it's not competitive.

You say Zapdos-G has limited switch-ins, but Fighting + Flying inherently has better coverage than Fighting + Dark, albeit walled by certain ghost types. A maxed out neutral Zapdos-G does 1.03x less damage than a maxed out neutral Urshifu (349/359), which isn't that much less and still has a good chance of 2HKO defensive mons like Mandibuzz with band. Not to mention, Zapdos-G on Flying has much better team support than Urshifu on Dark and can easily come in. The only downside of Zapdos-G is recoil from Brave Bird, but that shouldn't really affect its wallbreaking power and time in battle. Apologies for nitpicking, as I'm trying to differentiate what is so different about Urshifu compared to other wallbreakers. The only points I really acknowledge is a 120 BP Wicked Blow ignoring Intimidate and defensive boosts-- again not so prevalent in a meta like Monotype-- and invalidating the few scouters there are.

Edit: Those are indeed valid points Hyperspace12. Thanks for bringing those up for others to see. I'm still inclined to believe that Urshifu doesn't give Dark absolute wins, although I do think it is borderline unhealthy moreso because of its STAB combo and not so much its ability, as there's very few scouters. Nonetheless, I do agree with your valid points.
 
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I'll be speaking mostly in terms of types that I have been laddering with lately, so if I miss some stuff you'll have to forgive me. Please note that I am specifically talking about the Dark matchup for all of these types

To deal with Urshifu you basically have to pray that your opponent is scarfed and not the bulk up or banded sets, because mandibuzz gets 2HKOd by close combat from the boost from band and bulk up and can really just roost in Urshifu's face or be running toxic and lose momentum. Otherwise there are no switch ins to this mon because Skarmory recieves the same fate as Mandibuzz if the Urshifu is banded. Lately I have been running Substitute Bulk up Galarian Zapdos to help curb the threat of Urshifu and dark in general sinec Mandibuzz is just fodder for substitute, however in most matchups its not very helpful. Here is a replay of that set in action:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1330752655-v4zplnj8k61r8o3l50okooj7tndnevapw
Granted, this is still low ladder so y'know... probably isn't the best answer to dealing with this matchup

Toxapex can soft check Urshifu only if the opposing Urshifu is scarfed, Pex can get 2HKOd by Wicked Blow if banded and has to constantly recover and haze against the bulk up set in order to survive. Tapu fini is the best thing to a defensive check water has for Urshifu but the opponent can bring a tech like poison jab as the original post mentioned, Tapu Fini can also function somewhat as a scarfer in my experience which makes this specific matchup a lot more managable as far as offensively checking dark since it doesnt need set up, but keep in mind thats its inferior to the calm mind set that it likes to run. Fini is also suseptible to both chip damage from rocks and sandstorm so it can't repeatedly switch into Urshifu without some sort of consequence. This is part of what makes Urshifu unhealthy which I'll get into in my general thoughts later.

There are no switch-ins on electric, you can only offensively check Urshifu with Tapu Koko's Dazzling Gleam, Zeraora's Close Combat/Play Rough, Zapdos can OHKO with both Hurricane and Thunderbolt if specs 68% of the time, and finally Raichu can KO the bear if it isn't running sucker punch. Speaking of sucker punch, almost all of these mons excluding Koko don't like dealing with sucker punch because they generally appreciate having their health, and a mon has to either be sacked or take heavy damage to get them in if Urshifu is in on something like a Rotom or an Air Balloon Magnezone. Overall this type handles Urshifu decently because of its offensive options, but its still going to hurt every time Urshifu comes in.

Kommo-o gets 2HKOd by banded Close Combat if the Kommo-o is defensive, offensive Kommo-o gets OHKOd by Close Combat 50% of the time. Other than that you're going to have to offensively check Urshifu which is easier said than done due to Urshifu's respectable 100/100/60 bulk. Unless if you're running some sort of Dracovish, breaking through the Spdef Ttar and Phys Def Mandibuzz core is difficult because of a lot of what would be Urshifu's offensive checks on this type hate dealing with the combo of those three mons. Dual Wingbeat Dragonite can deal with urshifu to an extent if multiscale is active, but sandstorm chip breaks multiscale and Mandibuzz hard walls you either way. If you can chip Urshifu beforehand you can deal with it, but doing that with Dark's balanced core is more difficult to pull off than it needs to be when Urshifu can just click buttons mindlessly.

Just click x and make yourself a sandwich instead. You're really only dealing with this if your opponent has no idea what they're doing and you're better off doing something else with your time.

Ghost: You arent winning the dark matchup anyway, Mimikyu isn't saving you here

Poison: The regen core gets destroyed by dark with all of its options, and Weezing can only do so much after its black sludge gets knocked off.

Psychic: If your opponent is scarf Urshifu, congrats you just lost your Tapu Lele and the rest of your hopes of winning. If you're specs lele and its banded Urshifu, the same outcome. You could do something with focus sash zam, but at that point you're still going to die to whatever speed control dark has later on.

My general thoughts on Urshifu are that its a flawed pokemon with a good amount of offensive checks, however its ability to break through the best physically defensive walls in the game with sandstorm and stealth rocks racking up damage, support from slow U-Turners from mandibuzz, thunder wave support from Ttar and Grimmsnarl, and Dual screens making Urshifu even harder to kill pushes it over the edge considering the fact that it can just spam wicked blow in most instances without any drawbacks. Scouting for the moveset that may just break your team is very difficult to do since Unseen Fists makes the usage of protect useless which I consider unhealthy for the metagame, which is why if I get reqs I will be voting ban.
As a ghost player this hurts. This calc is the only way you can get rid of it defensively.
252+ Atk Black Glasses Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar on a critical hit: 252-296 (77.7 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Can we see scenarios and examples where Urshifu makes an actual difference when it's foregone,? This is assuming that this is mainly Dark we're focusing on as that seems to be the main type Urshifu is being talked about.

"Can we see scenarios and examples where Urshifu makes an actual difference when it's foregone,? This is assuming that this is mainly Dark we're focusing on as that seems to be the main type Urshifu is being talked about."

You don't need Sub BU Zapdos-G to beat Dark, in fact, I think you're doing yourself a disservice by using that instead of band/scarf. With that set, you're losing out on preserving your offensive momentum with U-turn to weed out Urshifu's teammates. With band, you can just click CC away and secure kills against Dark. Zapdos-G's typing allows it to survive two hits from banded Urshifu's STAB, and with Zapdos-G's speed can pressure it out.


I'm gonna be honest; if you lose with water with CM draining kiss Tapu Fini against Dark without any hax, then I feel that's more on the player's lack of experience moreso than Urshifu being busted. Tapu Fini shouldn't be pereceived as your Urshifu check but your wincon against Dark and Fighting. Sending Tapu Fini in on a potential banded poison jab is potentially throwing away your wincon in these MUs, unless you're assured with your offensive presence with a rain team. Safely getting Tapu Fini in and setting CM is your goal to win.


This is one of the examples of where I want to see a type that doesn't already get swatted by Dark without Urshifu when Dark has a fast killer like Weavile and/or scarf Hydreigon for speed control. Is Urshifu really the problem in this MU or does it just help Dark so greatly that Weavile and scarf Hydreigon doesn't even need to come in?


Ghost and Psychic are other types where I want to see whether or not they have a chance against Dark without Urshifu. Was there really a chance for them to win or does Urshifu merely enhances Dark's win? I'm not sure about the Fighting MU, but I can only presume Urshifu doesn't single-handedly carry the MU. There's no point in bringing up Urshifu on Dark against Ghost/Psychic, if Urshifu merely just exacerbates the MU.

For Poison, you use your defensive regen core to scout and softcheck the Urshifu, and then decide whether or not to go to Weezing-G. I'll disagree with the claim that "Weezing can only do so much after its black sludge gets knocked off", as Weezing-G's STAB strange beam does do a lot to Dark. Pain split can help Weezing-G with its longevity and protect can help Weezing-G passively accrue HP and scout knock off. The Poison MU is very much doable against Dark.

Overall, so far I see talk about Urshifu on Dark shreding Ghost, Psychic, Ground, Flying, Dragon and etc, but I don't necessarily think that's a strong argument when there's other threats on Dark these types should be worring about like Weavile, the seldom scarf Hydreigon, and Zarude. Is Urshifu unhealthy or does it merely exacerbate the MU?
So, lets start from the beginning.

"Can we see scenarios and examples where Urshifu makes an actual difference when it's foregone,? This is assuming that this is mainly Dark we're focusing on as that seems to be the main type Urshifu is being talked about."

My first post was to point out how Urshifu's presence has a huge impact on all of these types and how it forces the opponent to play in ways that they ordinarily wouldn't have to because of Urshifu's lack of switch ins using the types that I had the most experience with while laddering. The issue with Urshifu isn't that it completely annihilates these types all by itself, because it doesn't. What it does do is reward the Urshifu player for making the low risk play of spamming Wicked Blow to break through the opposing team while the opponent has to decide which pokemon to sack or be crippled by it. If you want to see Urshifu being a foregone factor it could have been tested in private with friends, however that's simply not how most people who are just looking for ladder games are experiencing the meta and that was the perspective I was trying to bring.

So, for flying I said that the set I was using were suboptimal however they had decent matchups against teams that used Urshifu. Substitute bulk up Zapdos trades momentum from U-Turn for guaranteed opportunities to stay in on pokemon it would normally have to switch out against if its locked into the wrong move. While the replay I posted was in the lower ladder it should demonstrate the basic idea of getting in on a pokemon that ordinarily can do nothing to Zapdos like Mandibuzz or on a Tyranitar's Thunder wave and setting up without fear of being revenge killed by something like a scarf hydreigon in the case where the flying team has already had holes punched through it because of Flying's lack of switchins for this matchup which is caused by Urshifu. The set isn't necessary by any means to win the matchup and I never said that, I mentioned a set that helped me secure wins more safely and reliably in this matchup.

If we're going to be talking about rainless water teams then does that not make my case for me more? A bulky fairy like Tapu Fini has to worry about a non-stab poison jab, but also the dark stab that Urshifu loves to spam seems absurd in my view when the dark player doesn't really need to predict hard to be rewarded if this is a bulky rainless water team. In the case of rain offense, yes tapu fini can serve as a soft check and not as a wincon with options like Barraskewda, which I should have specified so thats on me I suppose.

Ghost I was making a point on how this matchup is utterly hopeless with the presence of Urshifu because the other threats on dark don't really need to do much more than breaking mimikyu's disguise or serve as speed control. It was more of a tongue in cheek comment that I made in reference to my experience with laddering with the type and facing this matchup since I wanted to give a more full picture.

Psychic does have the chance to win without the presence of Urshifu with breakers like specs Tapu lele, Calm mind/Trick Room hatterene, the presence of strong U-Turners like banded Victini, and Alakazam providing Dazzling Gleam, Focus blast and Counter. Urshifu cleaves through all of these options by clicking Wicked blow, in comparison to other strong breakers that dark has Urshifu cannot be scouted for movesets until its already too late and its claimed a pokemon. Hydreigon can be scouted by sending in Galarian Slowking to see whether its specs or not, Weavile with Slowbro to see whether its banded or not, and neither of these mons would be dead from full which is what Urshifu brings to the table in almost all cases.

Poison, I hard disagree. Dark usually runs two or three Poison Breakers that shred through the regenerator core through the likes of Swords Dance Life Orb Bisharp, Nasty Plot Hydreigon or Galarian Moltres on top of Urshifu which is the mon that makes this matchup worse than it needs to be, since these other pokemon do not have a spammable base 120 power move that has no draw backs. In the case that Weezing gets knocked off, has to deal with stealth rock and sandstorm chip, trying to check Urshifu's wicked blows repeatedly only to have its teammate force Weezing out to take additional sandstorm + rocks chip later on is a reoccurring theme

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar on a critical hit: 93-111 (27.8 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage

Weezing can only come in on Urshifu Twice to check it in this case, while pain split can help keep Weezing healthy in only some situations because of how unreliable pain split can be as recovery, and the poison player being almost forced to click strange steam because of how much of a threat Urshifu is. Thats also ignoring Iron head that can break through Weezing on the switch in, because Toxapex doesnt want to come in on banded. If the question is then how does Weezing help you against those other threats anyway when all of the other pokemon mentioned break through it? Having Weezing take abuse from Urshifu constantly prevents it from checking some of the other physical dark types that can chip it down beforehand like Tyranitar and Weavile to get an 85% chance to cripple both of them with Will-o-Wisp instead of relying on Toxapex's 30% to get the burn via scald, who is already dealing with Urshifu as well.

As a ghost player this hurts. This calc is the only way you can get rid of it defensively.
252+ Atk Black Glasses Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Corsola-Galar on a critical hit: 252-296 (77.7 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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If we're going to be talking about rainless water teams then does that not make my case for me more? A bulky fairy like Tapu Fini has to worry about a non-stab poison jab, but also the dark stab that Urshifu loves to spam seems absurd in my view when the dark player doesn't really need to predict hard to be rewarded if this is a bulky rainless water team. In the case of rain offense, yes tapu fini can serve as a soft check and not as a wincon with options like Barraskewda, which I should have specified so thats on me I suppose.
Toxapex can serve to switchin on and scout Urshifu, and then you can decide accordingly what to do. Toxapex can survive a wicked blow and with Regenerator and Black Sludge, can reduce the net damage to around 19-29% and 31.5-41% with SR. Toxapex on bulky water has good teammates to cover for it, so it's not gonna go away so soon. I'll admit it's not the best solution and agree with the sentiment of this being unhealthy, but bulky water has Tapu Fini, Urshifu-RS, and possibly Keldeo to pressure Dark to not give Urshifu the chance to hack away at Water.
Psychic does have the chance to win without the presence of Urshifu with breakers like specs Tapu lele, Calm mind/Trick Room hatterene, the presence of strong U-Turners like banded Victini, and Alakazam providing Dazzling Gleam, Focus blast and Counter. Urshifu cleaves through all of these options by clicking Wicked blow, in comparison to other strong breakers that dark has Urshifu cannot be scouted for movesets until its already too late and its claimed a pokemon. Hydreigon can be scouted by sending in Galarian Slowking to see whether its specs or not, Weavile with Slowbro to see whether its banded or not, and neither of these mons would be dead from full which is what Urshifu brings to the table in almost all cases.
Those are indeed valid points on how Psychic can beat Dark. Although Specs Hydreigon, you're not factoring in SR like you're doing with the rest of the other calcs (i.e. Weezing-G). It's only fair to factor that, which does 2HKO AV Slowking-G and anything that chooses to come in.
Poison, I hard disagree. Dark usually runs two or three Poison Breakers that shred through the regenerator core through the likes of Swords Dance Life Orb Bisharp, Nasty Plot Hydreigon or Galarian Moltres on top of Urshifu which is the mon that makes this matchup worse than it needs to be, since these other pokemon do not have a spammable base 120 power move that has no draw backs. In the case that Weezing gets knocked off, has to deal with stealth rock and sandstorm chip, trying to check Urshifu's wicked blows repeatedly only to have its teammate force Weezing out to take additional sandstorm + rocks chip later on is a reoccurring theme
The way you're phrasing it it seems like Urshifu isn't the problem against Poison, but Bisharp, Hydreigon, and/or Moltres-G, which in my experience always tends to be one of my wincons. You say Urshifu can spam it with no drawbacks, but the player always has to consider whether or not they can secure a kill against a crippler (i.e. Weezing-G, Toxapex) lest they want to sack their Urshifu to chance; this also applies to water. I also feel like you're exagerating Weezing-G's worst case scenario, especially it getting Koffed. If it's getting Koffed, it's getting KO'd by Bisharp.
Weezing can only come in on Urshifu Twice to check it in this case, while pain split can help keep Weezing healthy in only some situations because of how unreliable pain split can be as recovery, and the poison player being almost forced to click strange steam because of how much of a threat Urshifu is. Thats also ignoring Iron head that can break through Weezing on the switch in, because Toxapex doesnt want to come in on banded. If the question is then how does Weezing help you against those other threats anyway when all of the other pokemon mentioned break through it? Having Weezing take abuse from Urshifu constantly prevents it from checking some of the other physical dark types that can chip it down beforehand like Tyranitar and Weavile to get an 85% chance to cripple both of them with Will-o-Wisp instead of relying on Toxapex's 30% to get the burn via scald, who is already dealing with Urshifu as well.
Toxapex can definitely come in on band to scout just like in Water in most scenarios, as I have mentioned above. Again for Weezing-G, I feel like you're exagerrating the worst case scenario. You have Amoongus and Toxapex for Tyranitar and Weavile folds to Toxapex. You have to rationalize your team to figure out who should check who and who isn't needed and can be sacked.
 

Namranan

:)))))))))))
Ok so to start off, I want to preface that even though I am known to use fighting a lot the points I am bringing up are brought up with respect to ALL TYPES not just in the lens of a fighting user. Now with that out of the way lets talk about urshifu.

Urshifu is a powerful mon, that much cannot be ignored, but is it truly banworthy? I think not.

While it is incredibly strong when it's in, I cannot agree that it has very little counterplay. Its speed tier is still really awful, being slower than base 100 which is where a lot of the pokemon in this current metagame is faster than. This along with its horrible defensive typing makes it really easy to revenge kill with common Pokemon without a choice scarf. If Urshifu itself is running a scarf, it becomes so weak that the things it would normally kill now become its biggest checks. This is not to mention its awful special bulk allowing powerful special attacks to easily OHKO it even with no prior chip. In order to fully cover just how much counterplay each type has, I will list every types VIABLE counter play options to prove my point.

Type:ChecksCountersExplanationHow it fares vs BUHow it fares vs BandHow it fares vs Scarf
Bug:buzzwole: :heracross: Sticky WebnoneBuzzwole and Heracross resist both of urshifu's stabs and can take any of its common coverage moves with ease.Even after a bulk up Buzzwole can still easily wall urshifu because of its massive defense stat, while heracross might not be able to reliably KO it it will leave enough of a dent for a teammate like Scizor to clean up.Buzzwole still walls Urshifu perfectly even with the added power of Choice Band. Heracross can switch in and OHKO if its scarf, otherwise it cannot safely come in.Both mons check urshifu even better if its scarf because now it is tremendously weak against them and the rest of the team.
DarkN/a
Dragon:Dragonite: :Latios:
:hydreigon: (sometimes)
noneBoots Dragonite with multiscale and dual wingbeat / Superpower consistently force Urshifu out of the game and puts pressure on both fighting and Dark teams. Latios also beats non sucker punch variants of urshifu very consistently.Bulk Up results in some annoying 50/50's for Dragonite, as it would like to Dragon Dance and use superpower to OHKO, but if Urshifu bulks up instead of attacking on the DD turn, it can result in either an annoying boosting war or annoying 50/50's with Sucker Punch vs Extreme Speed. Even when you get hit you might have to deal with sucker punch 50/50's. However this is not an Urshifu exclusive problem as many offensive pokemon with boosting moves do this with dragonite as well, so I don't think its really that unhealthy. Latios can trick Urshifu on a predicted Sucker Punch and either lock it into bulk up or Sucker Punch with either specs or scarf. Ideally you want to give it specs but scarf is not horrible for Dragon as a whole to deal with, especially since it lacks its coverage moves and can't effectively use sucker punch.Since you can tell it is band once dragonite gets hit, if you clicked DD you should force it out every time. You can't switch into it unless it uses CC which it will most likely not do. Latios has to play 50/50's but once again this isn't a problem exclusive to urshifu.Latios consistently beats this set if it runs a choice scarf once Urshifu gets rocks chip. Urshifu is also forced into many 50/50's due to hydreigon now being a viable switch-in on wicked blow, Dragonite also straight up checks it and never has to worry about sucker punch.
Electric:Tapu Koko: :Raichu-alola: :Zapdos:noneAll of the pokemon listed offensively force it out, none of them can switch in but with pivot support from rotom-wash or heat it can be very managable.Rotom can threaten a burn and then pivot into Koko who kills urshifu for free and has no worries about sucker punch. Zapdos and Achu can also do this but Tapu Koko is the most consistent and reliable check.This set is harder for rotom to switch into but easier to check once scouted. Once the electric user knows it is band they can send threaten double switches with koko and also use substitute on Achu to bait out sucker punch and get free pressure on the opposing team.Scarf, while faster than Koko, is still extremely weak and consistently gets pivoted on and weakened by rotom. It has no coverage moves to really hit any electric types hard either and the common ones like iron head are resisted so generally this set is pretty useless vs electric.
FairyPretty much anything but specifically, :Clefable: :Hatterene::Tapu Fini:Fairy as a whole only fears iron head from the choiced variants of urshifu, but it has access to easy screens and a STAB that will pretty much always OHKO urshifu no matter how pitifully weak the individual pokemon may be. Fairy also still has a great MU vs fighting and Dark consistently so Urshifu's teammates can't really do that much to help it in this regard either.The way you check this set can be repeated for pretty much all the other sets, but essentially klefki gets screens up and if urshifu bulks up, congrats! You now know it has no iron head so you can freely send in literally any non-psychic type fairy and you should be able to beat it consistently.Same as BU just make sure to use fini as it is neutral to Iron head and can take Poison Jab pretty easily with screens up.n/a
FightingN/a
FirenonenoneAdmittedly, there isn't a ton fire can do consistently to beat this mon. However, even if Urshifu is banned, fire will still struggle to Fighting because of Terrakion and Keldeo. Dark on the other hand will have a really hard time beating Fire without this mon as Cinderace can freely use HJK without worrying about getting obliterated by Band Sucker Punch, which actually makes the current matchup a lot worse in terms of balance.Your best bet is to try and use rotom-H to burn urshifu, then it becomes easier for Cinderace to handle. Either that or try and get lucky wiith a flame body burn from volcarona or moltres.Cinderace has to play 50/50's here and that's even if the set is scouted, hence why it isn't a consistent way to deal with the mon.This is the only set fire can consistently beat but it has to be scouted by either torkoal or a bulky rotom heat, can potentially result in their death, hence why they also aren't consistent checks.
Flying:Moltres-galar: :Zapdos-galar: :Dragonite: :Zapdos: :Corviknight: (Choice sets)none (Well :togekiss: is one but no one is using that)Flying has some of the most consistent answers and checks to urshifu in the entire metagame. With great bulky pivots to stomach Urshifu's hard hits and also scout the set effectively. Moltres-g and Zappy-g both take a hit from urshifu and fire back a powerful move that can usually OHKO it. Dragonite also works just like how I described in the Dragon section, and regular Zapdos is also a great offensive check to force out the slower sets. Corviknight and Skarmory are both good pivots into Urshifu, however, Corviknight comes wwith the benefit of pressure which allows wicked blow to only be used 4 times against it before being completely unusable, which makes it a better check IMO.Against Bulk up, Skarmory can usually switch in consistently even on a bulk up and force it out with whirlwind. Unfortunately this comes with the caviat of potentially having a more dangerous mon like Hydreigon come in for free but this is not an issue exclusive to dark, so its not really that problematic. That being said, you can also still force it out with Zappy G due to it resisting both STABS and having access to thunderous kick which nullifies Urshifu's defense boosts. Tornadus T can also do wonders vs this set thanks to regen and its amazing bulk allowing it to force Urshifu out pretty well as well as taunt stopping it from bulking up period. This paired with uturn makes it a pretty great option to use against it and is still useful for things besides Urshifu.Band requires you to scout it out with skarmory or corviknight before trying to check it. Corviknight here is actually very good as it forces urshifu to only be able to use wicked blow 4 times against it, which means that in a one on one situation it will either completely drain Urshifu's PP or at least leave a massive dent in it while still being relatively healthy thanks to roost. While this can be taken advantage of by the dark user and allow them to switch in tyranitar or something even more threatening you still have team support that allows you to deal with these mons rather effectively so it isn't that problematic. Oh and also if does KO Corv that means that one of your many checks gets to fire off a powerful move against the dark team, especially Zappy g who tears through the type pretty well. Rocky Helmet Skarmory is also still helpful against this set, it just makes urshifu easier to revenge kill but comes at the cost of losing one of your best walls. Which is why IMO corviknight is better but the point still stands that there is viable counterplay.Scarf gets checked easily by Corviknight with pressure and also skarmory switches into it for free with pretty much no worries. You don't even need to offensivly check it because it now gets walled due to the power drop from scarf.
Ghost:Mimikyu:noneOk yeah of course this mon absolutely obliterates ghost like come on now if Pandoro got sucker punch this would still be a problem for most ghost teams. The main thing that takes urshifu over the edge in this matchup is its speed tier being just 2 points faster than jolly mimikyu and its ability to ignore kings shield entirely. That being said, Mimikyu is still one of urshifu's greatest checks thanks to disguise. But yeah ghost has a pretty hard time against dark anyway, urshifu just makes it a tiny bit more braindead easy to win this MU. For fighting, its the only way the type can even deal with ghost as the rest of ghosts mons pretty much screw the type over, and the MU is pretty volatile as a result so its not really that unhealthy in that aspect either. If the ghost user preserves mimikyu's diguise vs fighting, they have a pretty solid chance at winning as spectrier causes 50/50s with any of the non-scarf sets. The actual scarf set is beaten by corsola-g consistently.It has to play 50/50's with Spectrier Will-o-wisp but aside from that yeah this mon runs ghost over without mimikyu checking it. Every time mimikyu comes in though a mon on dark or fighting may die so one has to be wary of that.Spectrier pretty much has to use will-o-wisp against urshifu here so that Corsola can wall it. Otherwise yeah its a sack fest with mimikyu and urshifu killing things again.Spectrier loses this but Corsola beats it 1v1. However corsola just invites something like hydreigon in for free so yeah its still hopeless, but dark just rails ghost anyway this generation so its not really exclusively urshifu's fault.
Grass:Whimsicott:noneUrshifu naturally destroys balanced types and grass is no different. But as it is a balance type grass does have ways to combat urshifu's dominating offense thanks to Whimsicott. Whimsi's typing and speed allow it to consistently force out urshifu and allow other grass mons like Rillaboom or Tapu Bulu do work. The grass vs dark MU is pretty rough for grass but that's mainly due to hydreigon and not so much urshifu, he's just the cherry on top. Grass vs Fighting is also fighting favored once again not due to urshifu but because hawlucha/Zapdos-G are incredibly strong against the type as well as buzzwole/Heracross. So in general while urshifu is good into grass, its not really unhealthy or one of the big players of the MU.Switching into this Pokemon is pretty much impossible because even if it didn't have unseen fist its typing and moves just pack an incredibly hard punch against the entire type, which is unfortunately a notorious problem with grass against other types like Dragon, Electric, Psychic, and others. So this flaw being exploited by urshifu isn't really something he exclusively does. That being said if you end up sacking something to it you are pretty much forced to force it out with whimsicott then make plays from there.Against Band Grass suffers the same problems even when the set is scouted. You pretty much have to pick a sack and then send in whimsicott and try to make plays from there. Once again, this isn't something exclusivly urshifu does because even on his own type, Hydreigon with choice specs or even without them causes grass to pick a pokemon to sack to it. Bisharp also similarly causes annoying 50/50's for the type and weavile can sweep the entire type (bar ferrothorn), etc. Urshifu is once again just the cherry on top of the pain pie that is this mu for grass.Scarf once again is pretty useless because now the set can be scouted by ferrothorn and other walls like amoongus. Amoongus also just completely walls the set and threatens to sleep something in return, which is never ideal for any type. Whimsicott has to be careful of Iron Head which can cause some annoying 50/50's if your amoongus is low but generally this set is far more managable for grass than the other two.
Groundnone:Hippowdon:Ground is really strange with Urshifu. It was once able to deal with it fine thanks to Landorus-I's powerful special attacks and superior speed tier, but with its sudden quickban ground has been scrambling for ways to consistently offensivly check this mon, and so far there really aren't that many. Hippowdon thankfully is a counter to urshifu 98.8% of the time with Leftovers if Urshifu is +1 or banded, which is better counterplay than a lot of other types on its own. However grounds inability to offensivly force Urshifu out makes it tough for the type to really get its turn going. However, while urshifu is very tough for the type to deal with, dark has two even bigger threats that on their own force a certain pokemon to be run on the type. Those threats are weavile and zarude. Zarude beats hippo consistently and never has to worry about status thanks to jungle healing, and also does nasty amounts of damage to every other mon and has very little counterplay besides running mamoswine. The same can be said for weavile but while that mon is easier to revenge kill, it also is harder to counter and stop from coming in multiple times. Also fighting has keldeo which completely 6-0s the matchup if played perfectly so in general, urshifu isn't the main thing making this MU difficult for Ground to handle.Against Bulk up, Hippo can force it out with whirlwind, but that'll bring in zarude or something even worse so its not really that great. But for forcing out urshifu hippo is pretty consistent here.Same story as Bulk upSame story as Bulk up
Ice:Ninetales-alola: :Avalugg::Avalugg: (Choice sets)I've seen ice mains complain about this mon a lot so I thought that during my research I would've seen that urshifu was yet another cherry on top of a bad MU for ice, except that isn't even the case. Ninetales-alola is a really consistent check to urshifu and paired with avalugg makes a pretty good anti-urshifu combo. That being said the mu for ice against fighting is still bad because of Terrak + Keldeo. However for dark Ice actually has the advantage due to mons like Glastrier and once again ninetales-alola beating the type pretty easily. Kyurem is also a massive problem for more bulky dark teams as its focus blasts and Draco Meteors tear through the defensive core and by assosciation its offensive pokemon as well. So in general this doesn't even seem to be that problematic its just a matter of playing well and scouting effectively.Against Bulk up you can phase out urshifu with piloswine or even swap in avalugg and phase it out. Cloyster's spikes and/or toxic spikes can also make this incredibly good as a strategy as paired with hail/sandstorm urshifu will get worn down consistently during the match which can lead it to being in Ice shard range of any of ice's offensive pokemon.Against Band it becomes harder to switch into but once scouted you can always force it out with ninetales and even potentially get screens up based on what move it uses. If Urshifu has iron head avalugg still tanks it because avalugg is just that fat, however it no longer can take a Close Combat so the ice user has to be wary of that. Overall though it is still easier to check. Also, galrian darmanitan can viably check this set if its locked into a move that isn't sucker punch, which can be converted into a free kill for the ice user.Against Scarf you always send in avalugg and you should never have a problem against it. If the dark or fighting user takes advantage of this and doubles out into something like hydreigon to beat avalugg, you will have to sack something but that gives you an incredible amount of momentum in the match as it gives you a free turn for either veil, a Kyurem attack, or time to set up your iron defense avalugg if you run that. Overall, the mon becomes a little more annoying to offensively check, but is far easier to defensively check.
Normal:ditto: (non-scarf)
none
its normal and normal still has no ghost type and even if it did it would get sucker punched. I don't think there is a single good fighting-type pokemon that isn't the bane of normal's existence, but that aside urshifu does nothing special that a regular fighting type like keldeo, terrakion, or even Toxicroak doesn't do. Ditto is obviously still a check and a pretty dangerous one too for dark teams since dark hates dealing with this mon more than other types.Sack and check with ditto, that's really the best way to beat this mon with normal otherwise you kinda get clobbered. Other options include glaring with heliolisk to slow it down into bewear range but that's about it.Bewear eats wicked blow for breakfast but gets demolished by close combat so just try to sack and use ditto again as like I mentioned prior, an urshifu is very dangerous into dark and they can't force it out that well.Bewear forces it out every time but can't switch in, its overall easier to deal with on normal though despite the scarf making ditto checking a little harder.
Poison:Weezing-galar:noneWeezing-g is one of the best checks to urshifu in the metagame second to buzzwole. The only move that it fears is iron head and even then it would have to be switched into it in order for it to be a bad trade for the poison user. It consistently beats the scarf and bulk up sets with realitve ease and helps out immensely in both MU's just by being present. The only downside is that it is the only mon that can do anything to stop Urshifu consistently, as nihilego pretty much never viably runs dazzling gleam and still has to fear sucker punch. Gengar has too many 50/50's associated with what it wants to do to beat urshifu so its not consistent enough to be a true check. This is a problem exclusive to urshifu admittedly, as the other mons on dark don't really do anything spectacular against poison unless they use krookodile, who is currently niche.Against BU, once it reveals that it has it, weezing completely dominates it and forces it out every time. It can be safely scouted with pex or amoong thanks to regen.Against Band, weezing can check it once it comes in during a neutral turn. The urshifu user actually has to be careful with which move they use as poison is notorious for its ability to spread status, which means that if urshifu gets a status effect its guessing games could end up being fatal for it. That being said though if weezing is gone this becomes a bloodbath for the poison user.Against Scarf, Weezing switches in pretty safely. Since there are very few things on dark that outright threaten it, it won't have to worry about Urshifu uturning into another potential threat.
Psychic:Hatterene:noneThis was one of the types urshifu dominates against, even with Tapu lele it can be killed with minor chip like 2 turns of sandstorm or rocks and get killed by scarf wicked blow. There is no counterplay except for one mon that also happens to completely dominate both dark and fighting as a while, Hatterene. While it has fallen in viability, one of the things it still does well is guarentee the psychic user never loses to dark or fighting. Its access to trick room and lele's psychic terrain support allow it to destroy entire teams if it gets set up which can be very easy. If urshifu kills anything on psychic, suddenly hatterene gets a free turn and the dark player has to pick 4 mons they want to sacrifice or lose tyranitar. Overall this mon isn't getting enough spotlight as a check for psychic possibly due to lele's dominance but it is definitely a viable option to deal with this mon as otherwise urshifu does crush it.Against BU, Hatterene can come in after a teleport pivot from slowbro or slowking and proceed to either click dkiss or trick room, both ensuring urshifu's demise if it doesn't switch out into ttar.Against Band, the same gameplan except tapu lele with scarf destroys it.Against scarf, Hatterene beats it if pivoted into similar to bulk up, it cannot switch in when rocks are up. Iron head also does less than Wicked Blow to it.
Rock:Terrakion: Sticky WebnoneInterestingly rock and dark have a pretty even MU that is slightly favored to rock thanks to terrakion, lycanroc, and webs existing. In fact rock checks urshifu better than most of the top tier types in the metagame, which is quite amazing.Against BU, if it does it in front of shuckle its basically gg as that means shuckle encore's it and gets webs up for free, while putting in nihilego to revenge kill it.Against band, Terrakion beats it straight up with or without webs and its forced out every time.Against scarf, Terrakion and Lycanroc beat it with webs up assuming terrakion isn't scarf. If terrak is scarf it beats it every time.
SteelnonenoneJust like normal, steel notoriously sucks against a majority of fighting types. Unlike normal however, they have a ghost type that can actually fend off most of them. Urshifu is not one of them. Now while admittedly unseen fist makes urshifu very frustrating for steel to handle as they can't pivot around it, this doesn't remove the fact that hydreigon also destroys the type on its own with any of its natural sets as long as they have a fire move. Urshifu just makes the MU even more overkill and won't really make it that much easier for dark users. That being said it is still incredibly unhealthy in this matchup but pokemon that are unhealthy for a matchup they are naturally good in isn't usually a reason for banning something (see: scizor vs fairy or ice). So I think while this is a good example to show how oppressive urshifu is, it isn't really a good enough reason to ban as the other types mentioned in this post still all have viable counterplay.Not much you can really do against any of the sets besides trying to do pressure nonsense with corviknight, dark teams are too stacked with hydreigon and urshifu to even make a default gameplann/an/a
Water:Keldeo: :Urshifu-R::tapu fini:Tapu Fini saves this balance type from being ripped apart by urshifu. It consistently switches in, uses draining kiss or moonblast to force it out or get a ko on a teammate, and repeats multiple times until the endgame where fini's team can finish off urshifu themselves regardless of the set. Keldeo and Urshifu-R can also check Urshifu-S.Tapu Fini switches in every time against this set and applies pressure just by being there, also comes with the added bonus of weakening hydreigon's dragon STAB for its teammates which gives it a great presence for the rest of the game. Keldeo with aura spehre or focus blast checks this set pretty effectively if swapped in via slowbro teleport. Same applies to urshifu-RSame story as BU except fini takes more damage and will probably need to use draining kiss if it doesn't want to get too worn down throughout the game.This set is useless vs water due to it getting countered by fini and checked by Urshifu-R and Keldeo really easily so its generally fine in that regard.


Now with that out of the way, I want to give a brief tldr about what my argument is:

I think that Urshifu is a strong pokemon, but they are not banworthy solely due to the fact that most of the MU's it is strong in are MU's that dark naturally wins without it, and that there is viable counterplay for almost every type as listed above. If there are any rebuttals please ping me and I'll address them otherwise thank you for reading my post!
 
If there are any rebuttals please ping me and I'll address them otherwise thank you for reading my post!
I think your analysis is very thorough and well developed except that there are certain things you did account for. First, I would like to say that besides fairy and buzzwole, there is no counter to it. Ursh is devastating if you predicted wrong. It's preferred to first assume it's CB as that set needs to be accounted for more so than other ones, but there is always a chance you land on a bulk up/scarf ursh and be screwed.

First, apart from fairy types, the only pokemons that resist its dual stabs are Heracross, Galarian Zapdos, Toxicroak, Hawlucha, and Buzzwole. In fact, apart from buzzwole, none of the other 4 can truly switch in safely. If we assume all these mons are max defense, max HP, bold nature,(which is highly unlikely), here are the calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxicroak on a critical hit: 153-180 (41.3 - 48.6%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos-Galar on a critical hit: 124-147 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hawlucha on a critical hit: 140-165 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heracross on a critical hit: 140-165 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The problems lies in the fact that these pokemon are offensive and are usually not going to run the max def and HP necessary to take the hit from ursh. As such, apart from fairies and buzzwole, there does not exist many pokemon that is not 2HKOed by this thing.

Also, you said :
Heracross can switch in and OHKO if its scarf, otherwise it cannot safely come in.
That's just not true.
252 Atk Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heracross on a critical hit: 124-147 (41.1 - 48.8%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Even for fairies, switchins are limited. Hatterene is not a check at all:
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hatterene on a critical hit: 241-285 (75.7 - 89.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
For weezing-galar, it's a 3HKO:
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar on a critical hit: 102-121 (30.5 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Clef which is also a 3HKO:
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable on a critical hit: 141-167 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Even the tapus are 3HKOs
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Koko on a critical hit: 129-153 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Bulu on a critical hit: 106-126 (30.8 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Tapu Fini on a critical hit: 116-137 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
For lele, it's worse:
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Lele on a critical hit: 280-330 (81.3 - 95.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Other Mons that resist dual stab
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Whimsicott on a critical hit: 141-167 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Togekiss on a critical hit: 132-156 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
All the above calcs assumed a heavy defensive set, which for pokemon like the tapus(except fini), are almost never used, so apart from mono fairy, and teams that can utilize buzzwole, the only option is to offensively check it. This is often difficult because it could be running succer punch for priority or it could simply be holding a scarf. With a scarf, the only mons capable of outspeeding it are scarfers themselves and pokemon with abilities that can increase their speed like swift swim baras, surge surfer alola-rai or sand rush exca. The problem lies within the fact ursh has succer punch on both bulk up and band sets, which OHKOs baras and alola-rai.
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Barraskewda: 283-334 (107.6 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu-Alola: 654-770 (250.5 - 295%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Even the bulkiest swift swimmer, omastar has to invest immensly in def and hp to survive band succer
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Omastar: 117-138 (34 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Standard swift swim omastar has these calcs
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Omastar: 156-184 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Same for chlorophyll & slush rush users, if they go on the offensive, they miss the bulk necessary to reliably check ursh.

You also talked about many types losing to dark/fighting even without ursh. That's simply not true.
For steel, play rough/sub mind moonblast jirachi can decently handle hydreigon, and if it's specs, steel can use its core to switch around and give opportunity for a setup or put it in range of scarf drill eq.
For ghost, without ursh, dark matchup is much better. Still horrendous, but much better. Mimikyu can clean late game, especially after pult killed off hydreigon with draco meteor/dragon darts
As for normal, bewear and heliolisk can help a lot vs big threats on fighting like band terakion or specs keldeo. Again, the matchup is horrendous, but at least, normal has a small chance.
Against psychic, trick room hatterene/scarf tapu lele has a chance to help a lot vs dark.

I'm not saying any of these matchups are good per say, but ursh turns bad matchups into unwinnable matchups. Imagine how much better it would be for types like rock, steel, normal, psychic, ghost, and ice if ursh was gone. Suddenly, these types actually have a chance against bad matchups.

Personally, I would ban urshifu, not only because it nullifies many types on its own but because without it, but also because many types can regain more viability. In a conclusion, a counter is defined a pokemon that can switch in and kill ursh. Apart from fairies, buzzwole, and very physically bulky pokemon, ursh quote on quote, has no counter.
 

Namranan

:)))))))))))
I think your analysis is very thorough and well developed except that there are certain things you did account for. First, I would like to say that besides fairy and buzzwole, there is no counter to it. Ursh is devastating if you predicted wrong. It's preferred to first assume it's CB as that set needs to be accounted for more so than other ones, but there is always a chance you land on a bulk up/scarf ursh and be screwed.
Thank you for the constructive response! Your points are valid for the most part especially about hatterene being a check. I just want to make it clear that when I mean check I mean a pokemon that can come in after something has been sacked and force the opposing pokemon out with an OHKO or something similar. So for example bewear is a check because it can come in before urshifu attacks and force it out, but if fini is a counter because it can switch in. Sorry for the confusion I hope that clears things up a little.

That being said, I still stand by a lot of the types still struggling to beat Urshifu's types except for Rock as I think I agree with you that the MU would be much easier if they never had to worry about Urshifu. I still think Urshifu is fine for the metagame and a lot of pokemon in this metagame have no true counters or very scarce counters (see: Zappy). I think it is pretty strong, but not the most broken thing right now that has to be banned. I think it still allows its types to work effectively and has counterplay to it.
 

Floss

never forgotten
is a Community Leaderis a Top Tiering Contributor
Monotype Leader
Ok so to start off, I want to preface that even though I am known to use fighting a lot the points I am bringing up are brought up with respect to ALL TYPES not just in the lens of a fighting user. Now with that out of the way lets talk about urshifu.

Urshifu is a powerful mon, that much cannot be ignored, but is it truly banworthy? I think not.

While it is incredibly strong when it's in, I cannot agree that it has very little counterplay. Its speed tier is still really awful, being slower than base 100 which is where a lot of the pokemon in this current metagame is faster than. This along with its horrible defensive typing makes it really easy to revenge kill with common Pokemon without a choice scarf. If Urshifu itself is running a scarf, it becomes so weak that the things it would normally kill now become its biggest checks. This is not to mention its awful special bulk allowing powerful special attacks to easily OHKO it even with no prior chip. In order to fully cover just how much counterplay each type has, I will list every types VIABLE counter play options to prove my point.

Type:ChecksCountersExplanationHow it fares vs BUHow it fares vs BandHow it fares vs Scarf
Bug:buzzwole::heracross: Sticky WebnoneBuzzwole and Heracross resist both of urshifu's stabs and can take any of its common coverage moves with ease.Even after a bulk up Buzzwole can still easily wall urshifu because of its massive defense stat, while heracross might not be able to reliably KO it it will leave enough of a dent for a teammate like Scizor to clean up.Buzzwole still walls Urshifu perfectly even with the added power of Choice Band. Heracross can switch in and OHKO if its scarf, otherwise it cannot safely come in.Both mons check urshifu even better if its scarf because now it is tremendously weak against them and the rest of the team.
DarkN/a
Dragon:Dragonite::Latios:
:hydreigon: (sometimes)
noneBoots Dragonite with multiscale and dual wingbeat / Superpower consistently force Urshifu out of the game and puts pressure on both fighting and Dark teams. Latios also beats non sucker punch variants of urshifu very consistently.Bulk Up results in some annoying 50/50's for Dragonite, as it would like to Dragon Dance and use superpower to OHKO, but if Urshifu bulks up instead of attacking on the DD turn, it can result in either an annoying boosting war or annoying 50/50's with Sucker Punch vs Extreme Speed. Even when you get hit you might have to deal with sucker punch 50/50's. However this is not an Urshifu exclusive problem as many offensive pokemon with boosting moves do this with dragonite as well, so I don't think its really that unhealthy. Latios can trick Urshifu on a predicted Sucker Punch and either lock it into bulk up or Sucker Punch with either specs or scarf. Ideally you want to give it specs but scarf is not horrible for Dragon as a whole to deal with, especially since it lacks its coverage moves and can't effectively use sucker punch.Since you can tell it is band once dragonite gets hit, if you clicked DD you should force it out every time. You can't switch into it unless it uses CC which it will most likely not do. Latios has to play 50/50's but once again this isn't a problem exclusive to urshifu.Latios consistently beats this set if it runs a choice scarf once Urshifu gets rocks chip. Urshifu is also forced into many 50/50's due to hydreigon now being a viable switch-in on wicked blow, Dragonite also straight up checks it and never has to worry about sucker punch.
Electric:Tapu Koko::Raichu-alola::Zapdos:noneAll of the pokemon listed offensively force it out, none of them can switch in but with pivot support from rotom-wash or heat it can be very managable.Rotom can threaten a burn and then pivot into Koko who kills urshifu for free and has no worries about sucker punch. Zapdos and Achu can also do this but Tapu Koko is the most consistent and reliable check.This set is harder for rotom to switch into but easier to check once scouted. Once the electric user knows it is band they can send threaten double switches with koko and also use substitute on Achu to bait out sucker punch and get free pressure on the opposing team.Scarf, while faster than Koko, is still extremely weak and consistently gets pivoted on and weakened by rotom. It has no coverage moves to really hit any electric types hard either and the common ones like iron head are resisted so generally this set is pretty useless vs electric.
FairyPretty much anything but specifically, :Clefable::Hatterene::Tapu Fini:Fairy as a whole only fears iron head from the choiced variants of urshifu, but it has access to easy screens and a STAB that will pretty much always OHKO urshifu no matter how pitifully weak the individual pokemon may be. Fairy also still has a great MU vs fighting and Dark consistently so Urshifu's teammates can't really do that much to help it in this regard either.The way you check this set can be repeated for pretty much all the other sets, but essentially klefki gets screens up and if urshifu bulks up, congrats! You now know it has no iron head so you can freely send in literally any non-psychic type fairy and you should be able to beat it consistently.Same as BU just make sure to use fini as it is neutral to Iron head and can take Poison Jab pretty easily with screens up.n/a
FightingN/a
FirenonenoneAdmittedly, there isn't a ton fire can do consistently to beat this mon. However, even if Urshifu is banned, fire will still struggle to Fighting because of Terrakion and Keldeo. Dark on the other hand will have a really hard time beating Fire without this mon as Cinderace can freely use HJK without worrying about getting obliterated by Band Sucker Punch, which actually makes the current matchup a lot worse in terms of balance.Your best bet is to try and use rotom-H to burn urshifu, then it becomes easier for Cinderace to handle. Either that or try and get lucky wiith a flame body burn from volcarona or moltres.Cinderace has to play 50/50's here and that's even if the set is scouted, hence why it isn't a consistent way to deal with the mon.This is the only set fire can consistently beat but it has to be scouted by either torkoal or a bulky rotom heat, can potentially result in their death, hence why they also aren't consistent checks.
Flying:Moltres-galar::Zapdos-galar::Dragonite::Zapdos::Corviknight: (Choice sets)none (Well :togekiss: is one but no one is using that)Flying has some of the most consistent answers and checks to urshifu in the entire metagame. With great bulky pivots to stomach Urshifu's hard hits and also scout the set effectively. Moltres-g and Zappy-g both take a hit from urshifu and fire back a powerful move that can usually OHKO it. Dragonite also works just like how I described in the Dragon section, and regular Zapdos is also a great offensive check to force out the slower sets. Corviknight and Skarmory are both good pivots into Urshifu, however, Corviknight comes wwith the benefit of pressure which allows wicked blow to only be used 4 times against it before being completely unusable, which makes it a better check IMO.Against Bulk up, Skarmory can usually switch in consistently even on a bulk up and force it out with whirlwind. Unfortunately this comes with the caviat of potentially having a more dangerous mon like Hydreigon come in for free but this is not an issue exclusive to dark, so its not really that problematic. That being said, you can also still force it out with Zappy G due to it resisting both STABS and having access to thunderous kick which nullifies Urshifu's defense boosts. Tornadus T can also do wonders vs this set thanks to regen and its amazing bulk allowing it to force Urshifu out pretty well as well as taunt stopping it from bulking up period. This paired with uturn makes it a pretty great option to use against it and is still useful for things besides Urshifu.Band requires you to scout it out with skarmory or corviknight before trying to check it. Corviknight here is actually very good as it forces urshifu to only be able to use wicked blow 4 times against it, which means that in a one on one situation it will either completely drain Urshifu's PP or at least leave a massive dent in it while still being relatively healthy thanks to roost. While this can be taken advantage of by the dark user and allow them to switch in tyranitar or something even more threatening you still have team support that allows you to deal with these mons rather effectively so it isn't that problematic. Oh and also if does KO Corv that means that one of your many checks gets to fire off a powerful move against the dark team, especially Zappy g who tears through the type pretty well. Rocky Helmet Skarmory is also still helpful against this set, it just makes urshifu easier to revenge kill but comes at the cost of losing one of your best walls. Which is why IMO corviknight is better but the point still stands that there is viable counterplay.Scarf gets checked easily by Corviknight with pressure and also skarmory switches into it for free with pretty much no worries. You don't even need to offensivly check it because it now gets walled due to the power drop from scarf.
Ghost:Mimikyu:noneOk yeah of course this mon absolutely obliterates ghost like come on now if Pandoro got sucker punch this would still be a problem for most ghost teams. The main thing that takes urshifu over the edge in this matchup is its speed tier being just 2 points faster than jolly mimikyu and its ability to ignore kings shield entirely. That being said, Mimikyu is still one of urshifu's greatest checks thanks to disguise. But yeah ghost has a pretty hard time against dark anyway, urshifu just makes it a tiny bit more braindead easy to win this MU. For fighting, its the only way the type can even deal with ghost as the rest of ghosts mons pretty much screw the type over, and the MU is pretty volatile as a result so its not really that unhealthy in that aspect either. If the ghost user preserves mimikyu's diguise vs fighting, they have a pretty solid chance at winning as spectrier causes 50/50s with any of the non-scarf sets. The actual scarf set is beaten by corsola-g consistently.It has to play 50/50's with Spectrier Will-o-wisp but aside from that yeah this mon runs ghost over without mimikyu checking it. Every time mimikyu comes in though a mon on dark or fighting may die so one has to be wary of that.Spectrier pretty much has to use will-o-wisp against urshifu here so that Corsola can wall it. Otherwise yeah its a sack fest with mimikyu and urshifu killing things again.Spectrier loses this but Corsola beats it 1v1. However corsola just invites something like hydreigon in for free so yeah its still hopeless, but dark just rails ghost anyway this generation so its not really exclusively urshifu's fault.
Grass:Whimsicott:noneUrshifu naturally destroys balanced types and grass is no different. But as it is a balance type grass does have ways to combat urshifu's dominating offense thanks to Whimsicott. Whimsi's typing and speed allow it to consistently force out urshifu and allow other grass mons like Rillaboom or Tapu Bulu do work. The grass vs dark MU is pretty rough for grass but that's mainly due to hydreigon and not so much urshifu, he's just the cherry on top. Grass vs Fighting is also fighting favored once again not due to urshifu but because hawlucha/Zapdos-G are incredibly strong against the type as well as buzzwole/Heracross. So in general while urshifu is good into grass, its not really unhealthy or one of the big players of the MU.Switching into this Pokemon is pretty much impossible because even if it didn't have unseen fist its typing and moves just pack an incredibly hard punch against the entire type, which is unfortunately a notorious problem with grass against other types like Dragon, Electric, Psychic, and others. So this flaw being exploited by urshifu isn't really something he exclusively does. That being said if you end up sacking something to it you are pretty much forced to force it out with whimsicott then make plays from there.Against Band Grass suffers the same problems even when the set is scouted. You pretty much have to pick a sack and then send in whimsicott and try to make plays from there. Once again, this isn't something exclusivly urshifu does because even on his own type, Hydreigon with choice specs or even without them causes grass to pick a pokemon to sack to it. Bisharp also similarly causes annoying 50/50's for the type and weavile can sweep the entire type (bar ferrothorn), etc. Urshifu is once again just the cherry on top of the pain pie that is this mu for grass.Scarf once again is pretty useless because now the set can be scouted by ferrothorn and other walls like amoongus. Amoongus also just completely walls the set and threatens to sleep something in return, which is never ideal for any type. Whimsicott has to be careful of Iron Head which can cause some annoying 50/50's if your amoongus is low but generally this set is far more managable for grass than the other two.
Groundnone:Hippowdon:Ground is really strange with Urshifu. It was once able to deal with it fine thanks to Landorus-I's powerful special attacks and superior speed tier, but with its sudden quickban ground has been scrambling for ways to consistently offensivly check this mon, and so far there really aren't that many. Hippowdon thankfully is a counter to urshifu 98.8% of the time with Leftovers if Urshifu is +1 or banded, which is better counterplay than a lot of other types on its own. However grounds inability to offensivly force Urshifu out makes it tough for the type to really get its turn going. However, while urshifu is very tough for the type to deal with, dark has two even bigger threats that on their own force a certain pokemon to be run on the type. Those threats are weavile and zarude. Zarude beats hippo consistently and never has to worry about status thanks to jungle healing, and also does nasty amounts of damage to every other mon and has very little counterplay besides running mamoswine. The same can be said for weavile but while that mon is easier to revenge kill, it also is harder to counter and stop from coming in multiple times. Also fighting has keldeo which completely 6-0s the matchup if played perfectly so in general, urshifu isn't the main thing making this MU difficult for Ground to handle.Against Bulk up, Hippo can force it out with whirlwind, but that'll bring in zarude or something even worse so its not really that great. But for forcing out urshifu hippo is pretty consistent here.Same story as Bulk upSame story as Bulk up
Ice:Ninetales-alola::Avalugg::Avalugg: (Choice sets)I've seen ice mains complain about this mon a lot so I thought that during my research I would've seen that urshifu was yet another cherry on top of a bad MU for ice, except that isn't even the case. Ninetales-alola is a really consistent check to urshifu and paired with avalugg makes a pretty good anti-urshifu combo. That being said the mu for ice against fighting is still bad because of Terrak + Keldeo. However for dark Ice actually has the advantage due to mons like Glastrier and once again ninetales-alola beating the type pretty easily. Kyurem is also a massive problem for more bulky dark teams as its focus blasts and Draco Meteors tear through the defensive core and by assosciation its offensive pokemon as well. So in general this doesn't even seem to be that problematic its just a matter of playing well and scouting effectively.Against Bulk up you can phase out urshifu with piloswine or even swap in avalugg and phase it out. Cloyster's spikes and/or toxic spikes can also make this incredibly good as a strategy as paired with hail/sandstorm urshifu will get worn down consistently during the match which can lead it to being in Ice shard range of any of ice's offensive pokemon.Against Band it becomes harder to switch into but once scouted you can always force it out with ninetales and even potentially get screens up based on what move it uses. If Urshifu has iron head avalugg still tanks it because avalugg is just that fat, however it no longer can take a Close Combat so the ice user has to be wary of that. Overall though it is still easier to check. Also, galrian darmanitan can viably check this set if its locked into a move that isn't sucker punch, which can be converted into a free kill for the ice user.Against Scarf you always send in avalugg and you should never have a problem against it. If the dark or fighting user takes advantage of this and doubles out into something like hydreigon to beat avalugg, you will have to sack something but that gives you an incredible amount of momentum in the match as it gives you a free turn for either veil, a Kyurem attack, or time to set up your iron defense avalugg if you run that. Overall, the mon becomes a little more annoying to offensively check, but is far easier to defensively check.
Normal:ditto: (non-scarf)
none
its normal and normal still has no ghost type and even if it did it would get sucker punched. I don't think there is a single good fighting-type pokemon that isn't the bane of normal's existence, but that aside urshifu does nothing special that a regular fighting type like keldeo, terrakion, or even Toxicroak doesn't do. Ditto is obviously still a check and a pretty dangerous one too for dark teams since dark hates dealing with this mon more than other types.Sack and check with ditto, that's really the best way to beat this mon with normal otherwise you kinda get clobbered. Other options include glaring with heliolisk to slow it down into bewear range but that's about it.Bewear eats wicked blow for breakfast but gets demolished by close combat so just try to sack and use ditto again as like I mentioned prior, an urshifu is very dangerous into dark and they can't force it out that well.Bewear forces it out every time but can't switch in, its overall easier to deal with on normal though despite the scarf making ditto checking a little harder.
Poison:Weezing-galar:noneWeezing-g is one of the best checks to urshifu in the metagame second to buzzwole. The only move that it fears is iron head and even then it would have to be switched into it in order for it to be a bad trade for the poison user. It consistently beats the scarf and bulk up sets with realitve ease and helps out immensely in both MU's just by being present. The only downside is that it is the only mon that can do anything to stop Urshifu consistently, as nihilego pretty much never viably runs dazzling gleam and still has to fear sucker punch. Gengar has too many 50/50's associated with what it wants to do to beat urshifu so its not consistent enough to be a true check. This is a problem exclusive to urshifu admittedly, as the other mons on dark don't really do anything spectacular against poison unless they use krookodile, who is currently niche.Against BU, once it reveals that it has it, weezing completely dominates it and forces it out every time. It can be safely scouted with pex or amoong thanks to regen.Against Band, weezing can check it once it comes in during a neutral turn. The urshifu user actually has to be careful with which move they use as poison is notorious for its ability to spread status, which means that if urshifu gets a status effect its guessing games could end up being fatal for it. That being said though if weezing is gone this becomes a bloodbath for the poison user.Against Scarf, Weezing switches in pretty safely. Since there are very few things on dark that outright threaten it, it won't have to worry about Urshifu uturning into another potential threat.
Psychic:Hatterene:noneThis was one of the types urshifu dominates against, even with Tapu lele it can be killed with minor chip like 2 turns of sandstorm or rocks and get killed by scarf wicked blow. There is no counterplay except for one mon that also happens to completely dominate both dark and fighting as a while, Hatterene. While it has fallen in viability, one of the things it still does well is guarentee the psychic user never loses to dark or fighting. Its access to trick room and lele's psychic terrain support allow it to destroy entire teams if it gets set up which can be very easy. If urshifu kills anything on psychic, suddenly hatterene gets a free turn and the dark player has to pick 4 mons they want to sacrifice or lose tyranitar. Overall this mon isn't getting enough spotlight as a check for psychic possibly due to lele's dominance but it is definitely a viable option to deal with this mon as otherwise urshifu does crush it.Against BU, Hatterene can come in after a teleport pivot from slowbro or slowking and proceed to either click dkiss or trick room, both ensuring urshifu's demise if it doesn't switch out into ttar.Against Band, the same gameplan except tapu lele with scarf destroys it.Against scarf, Hatterene beats it if pivoted into similar to bulk up, it cannot switch in when rocks are up. Iron head also does less than Wicked Blow to it.
Rock:Terrakion: Sticky WebnoneInterestingly rock and dark have a pretty even MU that is slightly favored to rock thanks to terrakion, lycanroc, and webs existing. In fact rock checks urshifu better than most of the top tier types in the metagame, which is quite amazing.Against BU, if it does it in front of shuckle its basically gg as that means shuckle encore's it and gets webs up for free, while putting in nihilego to revenge kill it.Against band, Terrakion beats it straight up with or without webs and its forced out every time.Against scarf, Terrakion and Lycanroc beat it with webs up assuming terrakion isn't scarf. If terrak is scarf it beats it every time.
SteelnonenoneJust like normal, steel notoriously sucks against a majority of fighting types. Unlike normal however, they have a ghost type that can actually fend off most of them. Urshifu is not one of them. Now while admittedly unseen fist makes urshifu very frustrating for steel to handle as they can't pivot around it, this doesn't remove the fact that hydreigon also destroys the type on its own with any of its natural sets as long as they have a fire move. Urshifu just makes the MU even more overkill and won't really make it that much easier for dark users. That being said it is still incredibly unhealthy in this matchup but pokemon that are unhealthy for a matchup they are naturally good in isn't usually a reason for banning something (see: scizor vs fairy or ice). So I think while this is a good example to show how oppressive urshifu is, it isn't really a good enough reason to ban as the other types mentioned in this post still all have viable counterplay.Not much you can really do against any of the sets besides trying to do pressure nonsense with corviknight, dark teams are too stacked with hydreigon and urshifu to even make a default gameplann/an/a
Water:Keldeo: :Urshifu-R::tapu fini:Tapu Fini saves this balance type from being ripped apart by urshifu. It consistently switches in, uses draining kiss or moonblast to force it out or get a ko on a teammate, and repeats multiple times until the endgame where fini's team can finish off urshifu themselves regardless of the set. Keldeo and Urshifu-R can also check Urshifu-S.Tapu Fini switches in every time against this set and applies pressure just by being there, also comes with the added bonus of weakening hydreigon's dragon STAB for its teammates which gives it a great presence for the rest of the game. Keldeo with aura spehre or focus blast checks this set pretty effectively if swapped in via slowbro teleport. Same applies to urshifu-RSame story as BU except fini takes more damage and will probably need to use draining kiss if it doesn't want to get too worn down throughout the game.This set is useless vs water due to it getting countered by fini and checked by Urshifu-R and Keldeo really easily so its generally fine in that regard.


Now with that out of the way, I want to give a brief tldr about what my argument is:

I think that Urshifu is a strong pokemon, but they are not banworthy solely due to the fact that most of the MU's it is strong in are MU's that dark naturally wins without it, and that there is viable counterplay for almost every type as listed above. If there are any rebuttals please ping me and I'll address them otherwise thank you for reading my post!
Going to discuss some points from this -
  • Dragonite is not used much on Dragon because it isn't great and there are better options, even if it was used no one would run Superpower on a Boots variant (regardless, it gets walled by Mandibuzz and a free U-Turn if they switch out of Mandi).
  • I don't see how Scarf Urshifu is 'consistently beaten' by Corsola-Galar, considering Corsola cannot switch into it (59 min from Scarf Wicked Blow). It's pretty much hoping for Cursed Body to force it out after switching in, and doesn't threaten too much by forcing Shifu to switch out.
  • Hydreigon doesn't even break Grass that well because of Cradily, the main threats are Weavile, then Urshifu, in that matchup.
  • Avalugg doesn't really serve much purpose as an anti-Urshifu check as Scarf is a decent roll to 2HKO, Scarf Shifu has no switchin on Ice whereas Glastrier can be offensively pressured and doesn't necessarily run Close Combat (Tyranitar also switches into A-Tales and blocks Veil). As for Kyurem, Sub Kyurem and not Specs Kyurem is the most common set on Ice, which can't break down Dark due to the presence of Tyranitar.
  • Hatterene does not guarantee that Psychic will beat Dark, Heavy Slam is a tech that players have started using on Tyranitar which prevents Hatterene from running through Dark/picking 4 mons. Usually, Tyranitar would be chipped down by Lele, but it would generally not be used on a team with Hatt. Meanwhile, Hatterene has trouble switching into Urshifu more than once, with Scarf Wicked Blow doing a minimum 46%.
 

mushamu

God jihyo
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Ok so to start off, I want to preface that even though I am known to use fighting a lot the points I am bringing up are brought up with respect to ALL TYPES not just in the lens of a fighting user. Now with that out of the way lets talk about urshifu.

Urshifu is a powerful mon, that much cannot be ignored, but is it truly banworthy? I think not.

While it is incredibly strong when it's in, I cannot agree that it has very little counterplay. Its speed tier is still really awful, being slower than base 100 which is where a lot of the pokemon in this current metagame is faster than. This along with its horrible defensive typing makes it really easy to revenge kill with common Pokemon without a choice scarf. If Urshifu itself is running a scarf, it becomes so weak that the things it would normally kill now become its biggest checks. This is not to mention its awful special bulk allowing powerful special attacks to easily OHKO it even with no prior chip. In order to fully cover just how much counterplay each type has, I will list every types VIABLE counter play options to prove my point.

Type:ChecksCountersExplanationHow it fares vs BUHow it fares vs BandHow it fares vs Scarf
Bug:buzzwole: :heracross: Sticky WebnoneBuzzwole and Heracross resist both of urshifu's stabs and can take any of its common coverage moves with ease.Even after a bulk up Buzzwole can still easily wall urshifu because of its massive defense stat, while heracross might not be able to reliably KO it it will leave enough of a dent for a teammate like Scizor to clean up.Buzzwole still walls Urshifu perfectly even with the added power of Choice Band. Heracross can switch in and OHKO if its scarf, otherwise it cannot safely come in.Both mons check urshifu even better if its scarf because now it is tremendously weak against them and the rest of the team.
DarkN/a
Dragon:Dragonite: :Latios:
:hydreigon: (sometimes)
noneBoots Dragonite with multiscale and dual wingbeat / Superpower consistently force Urshifu out of the game and puts pressure on both fighting and Dark teams. Latios also beats non sucker punch variants of urshifu very consistently.Bulk Up results in some annoying 50/50's for Dragonite, as it would like to Dragon Dance and use superpower to OHKO, but if Urshifu bulks up instead of attacking on the DD turn, it can result in either an annoying boosting war or annoying 50/50's with Sucker Punch vs Extreme Speed. Even when you get hit you might have to deal with sucker punch 50/50's. However this is not an Urshifu exclusive problem as many offensive pokemon with boosting moves do this with dragonite as well, so I don't think its really that unhealthy. Latios can trick Urshifu on a predicted Sucker Punch and either lock it into bulk up or Sucker Punch with either specs or scarf. Ideally you want to give it specs but scarf is not horrible for Dragon as a whole to deal with, especially since it lacks its coverage moves and can't effectively use sucker punch.Since you can tell it is band once dragonite gets hit, if you clicked DD you should force it out every time. You can't switch into it unless it uses CC which it will most likely not do. Latios has to play 50/50's but once again this isn't a problem exclusive to urshifu.Latios consistently beats this set if it runs a choice scarf once Urshifu gets rocks chip. Urshifu is also forced into many 50/50's due to hydreigon now being a viable switch-in on wicked blow, Dragonite also straight up checks it and never has to worry about sucker punch.
Electric:Tapu Koko: :Raichu-alola: :Zapdos:noneAll of the pokemon listed offensively force it out, none of them can switch in but with pivot support from rotom-wash or heat it can be very managable.Rotom can threaten a burn and then pivot into Koko who kills urshifu for free and has no worries about sucker punch. Zapdos and Achu can also do this but Tapu Koko is the most consistent and reliable check.This set is harder for rotom to switch into but easier to check once scouted. Once the electric user knows it is band they can send threaten double switches with koko and also use substitute on Achu to bait out sucker punch and get free pressure on the opposing team.Scarf, while faster than Koko, is still extremely weak and consistently gets pivoted on and weakened by rotom. It has no coverage moves to really hit any electric types hard either and the common ones like iron head are resisted so generally this set is pretty useless vs electric.
FairyPretty much anything but specifically, :Clefable: :Hatterene::Tapu Fini:Fairy as a whole only fears iron head from the choiced variants of urshifu, but it has access to easy screens and a STAB that will pretty much always OHKO urshifu no matter how pitifully weak the individual pokemon may be. Fairy also still has a great MU vs fighting and Dark consistently so Urshifu's teammates can't really do that much to help it in this regard either.The way you check this set can be repeated for pretty much all the other sets, but essentially klefki gets screens up and if urshifu bulks up, congrats! You now know it has no iron head so you can freely send in literally any non-psychic type fairy and you should be able to beat it consistently.Same as BU just make sure to use fini as it is neutral to Iron head and can take Poison Jab pretty easily with screens up.n/a
FightingN/a
FirenonenoneAdmittedly, there isn't a ton fire can do consistently to beat this mon. However, even if Urshifu is banned, fire will still struggle to Fighting because of Terrakion and Keldeo. Dark on the other hand will have a really hard time beating Fire without this mon as Cinderace can freely use HJK without worrying about getting obliterated by Band Sucker Punch, which actually makes the current matchup a lot worse in terms of balance.Your best bet is to try and use rotom-H to burn urshifu, then it becomes easier for Cinderace to handle. Either that or try and get lucky wiith a flame body burn from volcarona or moltres.Cinderace has to play 50/50's here and that's even if the set is scouted, hence why it isn't a consistent way to deal with the mon.This is the only set fire can consistently beat but it has to be scouted by either torkoal or a bulky rotom heat, can potentially result in their death, hence why they also aren't consistent checks.
Flying:Moltres-galar: :Zapdos-galar: :Dragonite: :Zapdos: :Corviknight: (Choice sets)none (Well :togekiss: is one but no one is using that)Flying has some of the most consistent answers and checks to urshifu in the entire metagame. With great bulky pivots to stomach Urshifu's hard hits and also scout the set effectively. Moltres-g and Zappy-g both take a hit from urshifu and fire back a powerful move that can usually OHKO it. Dragonite also works just like how I described in the Dragon section, and regular Zapdos is also a great offensive check to force out the slower sets. Corviknight and Skarmory are both good pivots into Urshifu, however, Corviknight comes wwith the benefit of pressure which allows wicked blow to only be used 4 times against it before being completely unusable, which makes it a better check IMO.Against Bulk up, Skarmory can usually switch in consistently even on a bulk up and force it out with whirlwind. Unfortunately this comes with the caviat of potentially having a more dangerous mon like Hydreigon come in for free but this is not an issue exclusive to dark, so its not really that problematic. That being said, you can also still force it out with Zappy G due to it resisting both STABS and having access to thunderous kick which nullifies Urshifu's defense boosts. Tornadus T can also do wonders vs this set thanks to regen and its amazing bulk allowing it to force Urshifu out pretty well as well as taunt stopping it from bulking up period. This paired with uturn makes it a pretty great option to use against it and is still useful for things besides Urshifu.Band requires you to scout it out with skarmory or corviknight before trying to check it. Corviknight here is actually very good as it forces urshifu to only be able to use wicked blow 4 times against it, which means that in a one on one situation it will either completely drain Urshifu's PP or at least leave a massive dent in it while still being relatively healthy thanks to roost. While this can be taken advantage of by the dark user and allow them to switch in tyranitar or something even more threatening you still have team support that allows you to deal with these mons rather effectively so it isn't that problematic. Oh and also if does KO Corv that means that one of your many checks gets to fire off a powerful move against the dark team, especially Zappy g who tears through the type pretty well. Rocky Helmet Skarmory is also still helpful against this set, it just makes urshifu easier to revenge kill but comes at the cost of losing one of your best walls. Which is why IMO corviknight is better but the point still stands that there is viable counterplay.Scarf gets checked easily by Corviknight with pressure and also skarmory switches into it for free with pretty much no worries. You don't even need to offensivly check it because it now gets walled due to the power drop from scarf.
Ghost:Mimikyu:noneOk yeah of course this mon absolutely obliterates ghost like come on now if Pandoro got sucker punch this would still be a problem for most ghost teams. The main thing that takes urshifu over the edge in this matchup is its speed tier being just 2 points faster than jolly mimikyu and its ability to ignore kings shield entirely. That being said, Mimikyu is still one of urshifu's greatest checks thanks to disguise. But yeah ghost has a pretty hard time against dark anyway, urshifu just makes it a tiny bit more braindead easy to win this MU. For fighting, its the only way the type can even deal with ghost as the rest of ghosts mons pretty much screw the type over, and the MU is pretty volatile as a result so its not really that unhealthy in that aspect either. If the ghost user preserves mimikyu's diguise vs fighting, they have a pretty solid chance at winning as spectrier causes 50/50s with any of the non-scarf sets. The actual scarf set is beaten by corsola-g consistently.It has to play 50/50's with Spectrier Will-o-wisp but aside from that yeah this mon runs ghost over without mimikyu checking it. Every time mimikyu comes in though a mon on dark or fighting may die so one has to be wary of that.Spectrier pretty much has to use will-o-wisp against urshifu here so that Corsola can wall it. Otherwise yeah its a sack fest with mimikyu and urshifu killing things again.Spectrier loses this but Corsola beats it 1v1. However corsola just invites something like hydreigon in for free so yeah its still hopeless, but dark just rails ghost anyway this generation so its not really exclusively urshifu's fault.
Grass:Whimsicott:noneUrshifu naturally destroys balanced types and grass is no different. But as it is a balance type grass does have ways to combat urshifu's dominating offense thanks to Whimsicott. Whimsi's typing and speed allow it to consistently force out urshifu and allow other grass mons like Rillaboom or Tapu Bulu do work. The grass vs dark MU is pretty rough for grass but that's mainly due to hydreigon and not so much urshifu, he's just the cherry on top. Grass vs Fighting is also fighting favored once again not due to urshifu but because hawlucha/Zapdos-G are incredibly strong against the type as well as buzzwole/Heracross. So in general while urshifu is good into grass, its not really unhealthy or one of the big players of the MU.Switching into this Pokemon is pretty much impossible because even if it didn't have unseen fist its typing and moves just pack an incredibly hard punch against the entire type, which is unfortunately a notorious problem with grass against other types like Dragon, Electric, Psychic, and others. So this flaw being exploited by urshifu isn't really something he exclusively does. That being said if you end up sacking something to it you are pretty much forced to force it out with whimsicott then make plays from there.Against Band Grass suffers the same problems even when the set is scouted. You pretty much have to pick a sack and then send in whimsicott and try to make plays from there. Once again, this isn't something exclusivly urshifu does because even on his own type, Hydreigon with choice specs or even without them causes grass to pick a pokemon to sack to it. Bisharp also similarly causes annoying 50/50's for the type and weavile can sweep the entire type (bar ferrothorn), etc. Urshifu is once again just the cherry on top of the pain pie that is this mu for grass.Scarf once again is pretty useless because now the set can be scouted by ferrothorn and other walls like amoongus. Amoongus also just completely walls the set and threatens to sleep something in return, which is never ideal for any type. Whimsicott has to be careful of Iron Head which can cause some annoying 50/50's if your amoongus is low but generally this set is far more managable for grass than the other two.
Groundnone:Hippowdon:Ground is really strange with Urshifu. It was once able to deal with it fine thanks to Landorus-I's powerful special attacks and superior speed tier, but with its sudden quickban ground has been scrambling for ways to consistently offensivly check this mon, and so far there really aren't that many. Hippowdon thankfully is a counter to urshifu 98.8% of the time with Leftovers if Urshifu is +1 or banded, which is better counterplay than a lot of other types on its own. However grounds inability to offensivly force Urshifu out makes it tough for the type to really get its turn going. However, while urshifu is very tough for the type to deal with, dark has two even bigger threats that on their own force a certain pokemon to be run on the type. Those threats are weavile and zarude. Zarude beats hippo consistently and never has to worry about status thanks to jungle healing, and also does nasty amounts of damage to every other mon and has very little counterplay besides running mamoswine. The same can be said for weavile but while that mon is easier to revenge kill, it also is harder to counter and stop from coming in multiple times. Also fighting has keldeo which completely 6-0s the matchup if played perfectly so in general, urshifu isn't the main thing making this MU difficult for Ground to handle.Against Bulk up, Hippo can force it out with whirlwind, but that'll bring in zarude or something even worse so its not really that great. But for forcing out urshifu hippo is pretty consistent here.Same story as Bulk upSame story as Bulk up
Ice:Ninetales-alola: :Avalugg::Avalugg: (Choice sets)I've seen ice mains complain about this mon a lot so I thought that during my research I would've seen that urshifu was yet another cherry on top of a bad MU for ice, except that isn't even the case. Ninetales-alola is a really consistent check to urshifu and paired with avalugg makes a pretty good anti-urshifu combo. That being said the mu for ice against fighting is still bad because of Terrak + Keldeo. However for dark Ice actually has the advantage due to mons like Glastrier and once again ninetales-alola beating the type pretty easily. Kyurem is also a massive problem for more bulky dark teams as its focus blasts and Draco Meteors tear through the defensive core and by assosciation its offensive pokemon as well. So in general this doesn't even seem to be that problematic its just a matter of playing well and scouting effectively.Against Bulk up you can phase out urshifu with piloswine or even swap in avalugg and phase it out. Cloyster's spikes and/or toxic spikes can also make this incredibly good as a strategy as paired with hail/sandstorm urshifu will get worn down consistently during the match which can lead it to being in Ice shard range of any of ice's offensive pokemon.Against Band it becomes harder to switch into but once scouted you can always force it out with ninetales and even potentially get screens up based on what move it uses. If Urshifu has iron head avalugg still tanks it because avalugg is just that fat, however it no longer can take a Close Combat so the ice user has to be wary of that. Overall though it is still easier to check. Also, galrian darmanitan can viably check this set if its locked into a move that isn't sucker punch, which can be converted into a free kill for the ice user.Against Scarf you always send in avalugg and you should never have a problem against it. If the dark or fighting user takes advantage of this and doubles out into something like hydreigon to beat avalugg, you will have to sack something but that gives you an incredible amount of momentum in the match as it gives you a free turn for either veil, a Kyurem attack, or time to set up your iron defense avalugg if you run that. Overall, the mon becomes a little more annoying to offensively check, but is far easier to defensively check.
Normal:ditto: (non-scarf)
none
its normal and normal still has no ghost type and even if it did it would get sucker punched. I don't think there is a single good fighting-type pokemon that isn't the bane of normal's existence, but that aside urshifu does nothing special that a regular fighting type like keldeo, terrakion, or even Toxicroak doesn't do. Ditto is obviously still a check and a pretty dangerous one too for dark teams since dark hates dealing with this mon more than other types.Sack and check with ditto, that's really the best way to beat this mon with normal otherwise you kinda get clobbered. Other options include glaring with heliolisk to slow it down into bewear range but that's about it.Bewear eats wicked blow for breakfast but gets demolished by close combat so just try to sack and use ditto again as like I mentioned prior, an urshifu is very dangerous into dark and they can't force it out that well.Bewear forces it out every time but can't switch in, its overall easier to deal with on normal though despite the scarf making ditto checking a little harder.
Poison:Weezing-galar:noneWeezing-g is one of the best checks to urshifu in the metagame second to buzzwole. The only move that it fears is iron head and even then it would have to be switched into it in order for it to be a bad trade for the poison user. It consistently beats the scarf and bulk up sets with realitve ease and helps out immensely in both MU's just by being present. The only downside is that it is the only mon that can do anything to stop Urshifu consistently, as nihilego pretty much never viably runs dazzling gleam and still has to fear sucker punch. Gengar has too many 50/50's associated with what it wants to do to beat urshifu so its not consistent enough to be a true check. This is a problem exclusive to urshifu admittedly, as the other mons on dark don't really do anything spectacular against poison unless they use krookodile, who is currently niche.Against BU, once it reveals that it has it, weezing completely dominates it and forces it out every time. It can be safely scouted with pex or amoong thanks to regen.Against Band, weezing can check it once it comes in during a neutral turn. The urshifu user actually has to be careful with which move they use as poison is notorious for its ability to spread status, which means that if urshifu gets a status effect its guessing games could end up being fatal for it. That being said though if weezing is gone this becomes a bloodbath for the poison user.Against Scarf, Weezing switches in pretty safely. Since there are very few things on dark that outright threaten it, it won't have to worry about Urshifu uturning into another potential threat.
Psychic:Hatterene:noneThis was one of the types urshifu dominates against, even with Tapu lele it can be killed with minor chip like 2 turns of sandstorm or rocks and get killed by scarf wicked blow. There is no counterplay except for one mon that also happens to completely dominate both dark and fighting as a while, Hatterene. While it has fallen in viability, one of the things it still does well is guarentee the psychic user never loses to dark or fighting. Its access to trick room and lele's psychic terrain support allow it to destroy entire teams if it gets set up which can be very easy. If urshifu kills anything on psychic, suddenly hatterene gets a free turn and the dark player has to pick 4 mons they want to sacrifice or lose tyranitar. Overall this mon isn't getting enough spotlight as a check for psychic possibly due to lele's dominance but it is definitely a viable option to deal with this mon as otherwise urshifu does crush it.Against BU, Hatterene can come in after a teleport pivot from slowbro or slowking and proceed to either click dkiss or trick room, both ensuring urshifu's demise if it doesn't switch out into ttar.Against Band, the same gameplan except tapu lele with scarf destroys it.Against scarf, Hatterene beats it if pivoted into similar to bulk up, it cannot switch in when rocks are up. Iron head also does less than Wicked Blow to it.
Rock:Terrakion: Sticky WebnoneInterestingly rock and dark have a pretty even MU that is slightly favored to rock thanks to terrakion, lycanroc, and webs existing. In fact rock checks urshifu better than most of the top tier types in the metagame, which is quite amazing.Against BU, if it does it in front of shuckle its basically gg as that means shuckle encore's it and gets webs up for free, while putting in nihilego to revenge kill it.Against band, Terrakion beats it straight up with or without webs and its forced out every time.Against scarf, Terrakion and Lycanroc beat it with webs up assuming terrakion isn't scarf. If terrak is scarf it beats it every time.
SteelnonenoneJust like normal, steel notoriously sucks against a majority of fighting types. Unlike normal however, they have a ghost type that can actually fend off most of them. Urshifu is not one of them. Now while admittedly unseen fist makes urshifu very frustrating for steel to handle as they can't pivot around it, this doesn't remove the fact that hydreigon also destroys the type on its own with any of its natural sets as long as they have a fire move. Urshifu just makes the MU even more overkill and won't really make it that much easier for dark users. That being said it is still incredibly unhealthy in this matchup but pokemon that are unhealthy for a matchup they are naturally good in isn't usually a reason for banning something (see: scizor vs fairy or ice). So I think while this is a good example to show how oppressive urshifu is, it isn't really a good enough reason to ban as the other types mentioned in this post still all have viable counterplay.Not much you can really do against any of the sets besides trying to do pressure nonsense with corviknight, dark teams are too stacked with hydreigon and urshifu to even make a default gameplann/an/a
Water:Keldeo: :Urshifu-R::tapu fini:Tapu Fini saves this balance type from being ripped apart by urshifu. It consistently switches in, uses draining kiss or moonblast to force it out or get a ko on a teammate, and repeats multiple times until the endgame where fini's team can finish off urshifu themselves regardless of the set. Keldeo and Urshifu-R can also check Urshifu-S.Tapu Fini switches in every time against this set and applies pressure just by being there, also comes with the added bonus of weakening hydreigon's dragon STAB for its teammates which gives it a great presence for the rest of the game. Keldeo with aura spehre or focus blast checks this set pretty effectively if swapped in via slowbro teleport. Same applies to urshifu-RSame story as BU except fini takes more damage and will probably need to use draining kiss if it doesn't want to get too worn down throughout the game.This set is useless vs water due to it getting countered by fini and checked by Urshifu-R and Keldeo really easily so its generally fine in that regard.


Now with that out of the way, I want to give a brief tldr about what my argument is:

I think that Urshifu is a strong pokemon, but they are not banworthy solely due to the fact that most of the MU's it is strong in are MU's that dark naturally wins without it, and that there is viable counterplay for almost every type as listed above. If there are any rebuttals please ping me and I'll address them otherwise thank you for reading my post!
I said this on Discord but something huge to think about is how Urshifu threatens these types and compare them to the other Pokemon you list. Hydreigon does indeed break Steel, but Nasty Plot takes a turn to set up which means you can Roar it out while Choice Specs is scoutable and walled by Heatran. This is completely different than Urshifu, which can literally break Steel by going in on something slower and essentially clicking buttons. Beating Steel is noticeably different for the two Pokemon; Hydreigon can be checked and dealt with through competent play much easier while Urshifu kind of invalidates that same counterplay. The same can be said about Grass, it's true Hydreigon, Weavile, and Bisharp can break through the type, but they all have their respective answers, and the Dark user needs to actually think carefully about how to execute their gameplan so that one of them can sweep. Body Press Ferrothorn walls Weavile and Bisharp, while Hydreigon is checked by Whimsicott and countered by Cradily so pulling off a sweep is skill reliant based on positioning. Choice Band Urshifu is completely different in the sense that it can some in on Ferrothorn/Cradily and force the Grass user to predict right or sack something if Amoonguss is chipped due to Unseen Fist. These are not examples of healthy gameplay, and Urshifu's low risk while having such a high reward thanks to multiple attributes is not healthy for a competitive tier where ideally you want someone's superior skill being awarded. Steel and Grass are only some examples, but its noticeably restricting against other types as well due to various reasons.
 
As someone who has prepped and built a lot of SS Mono for a while, I want to give my 2 cents on a suspect which in my opinion was long overdue.

From the get-go, I believe that the lack of drawbacks of just clicking Wicked Blow one of the main reason why it is unhealthy. Very similar to Dracovish's Fishious Rend, there are few switch-ins to it and if you run the Choice Band set you could be potentially 2HKOed after hazards chip (even while resisting). This gives rise to brainless gameplay where you can delete half a team using a set and conversely strain teambuilding as you have to cover for these terrifying sets.

I won't delve into the individual counters that have been discussed by my predecessors, but from what I understood from reading the conversation, you have to rely on soft checks, offensive/revenge checks, missplays, and sometimes straight-up hoping they don't run a certain set (Scarf/Band/BulkUp). Admittedly like any other strong pokemon in the meta, it can be offensively checked to some extent. It lies in a convenient speed tier outspeeding common threats such as Tapu Lele, Mimikyu, G-Moltres, and Landorus, which led to a rise in popularity of G-Zapdos and the notorious and now close to a suspect Choice Specs Zapdos. While that is great that some answers are being found here and there for Urshifu, we are being pushed into a meta where most teams have a pokemon with a Nuke button. Don't get me wrong, there have always been those types of pokemon before(BandVictini, G-Darmanitan, MegaMedicham) and they settled into the meta eventually, however, there are simply so many available right now that forget planning to deal with them, you just feel downright stupid for not joining in on the party.

I have heard the argument that it does in fact have counterplay and I agree if you let a problem like this run around for a while, we will build the meta around it and move on. I have a few issues with that idea though:

1. Some types have fallen out of popularity in tandem with the ascent of Urshifu. ie Ice, Ghost, Psychic. This is mainly due to the "You gotta click x vs that" reputation that follows Urshifu. This constricts the meta, and leads to using those types become counterpick/cteam types just because they struggle/have to overprep vs a common threat. The game just becomes unfun since you either face the same teams a lot or get frustrated over losing to "bad sets".

2. If Urshifu had appeared on an average type then maybe, it would have been easier to deal with like G-Darmanitan on Ice, however, Dark has historically been a strong type with pokemon that can do almost any job making it a popular anti-meta type (type that can be brought to counter popular types) ever since Generation 5. This generation they were blessed with Zarude(Stallbreak and Water answer), TripleAxel Weavile(Wallbreak), NP Hydreigon(Wallbreak+Sweeper), Boots Mandibuzz(Even more unkillable) and lastly reliable screen with Grimmsnarl. It is now easily one of the best types in the meta and Urshifu is not the only reason for that. With the current tools available, I wouldn't be surprised if a good Dark player could beat every type (except fighting) with the same team. Dark simply carries that level of firepower and versatility these days.
A few sports analogies for this would be:
Like a football team with unlimited cash and no Financial Fair Play OR
Like a sports team with no salary cap for Americans
Dark will be just fine without Urshifu, trust me.

I have heard people saying that both Urshifus should get banned which puzzles me, Rapid-Strike Urshifu is in a much better place. It has good competition in Keldeo, Crawdaunt, and Dracovish for that Choiced spot and simply does not carry the destructive potential as Single-Strike Urshifu.
I also feel bad for fighting, since this was the best thing they got since Mega Medicham which also got banned LOL.

I apologise for the lack of calcs, replays, and cold-hard evidence to support my views but I think that I could provide more anecdotal insight as someone who has been in the mud pit known as "Sword and Shield Monotype" for a bit. Anyway, in my opinion it's time for a purge of these clowns causing sub 10-turn battles. Hence why I will very likely vote Ban.
 
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Yo everyone quick announcement,

Due to showdown going down the final day of deadline, we're going to be extending deadline until Thursday May 13th 11:59 PM EDT (GMT -4). Hopefully if you were looking to finish up getting reqs today you can find the time to do so in the next couple of days. If for any reason Showdown isn't up and running by then we'll extend deadline again but I highly doubt we'll need to do that.

(ban urshifu friends)
 
Got reqs and will be likely voting no ban on shifu.

I don't believe Urshifu is significantly more imposing than other breakers found in the monotype metagame. One common complaint is how urshifu bodies types like Steel and Psychic. Let's examine these types.

I've played a bit of steel and, while there is no real switch into urshifu, this is true for a variety of mons against steel--there's no switch into zeroza, NP hydre, scorching sands Victini, and CM keldeo. Moreover, these mons are commonly harder to deal with than Urshifu due to the fact they commonly carry Substitute to reduce counterplay. I'd go as far as to claim Urshifu is not steel's main problem in this metagame.

As to counterplay to urshifu itself, there are a few options on steel. There's a variety of revenge killers, including sub Jirachi with moonblast, focus blast cobalion, as well as draining kiss Kelfki, as well as scarf Magnezone (how this hasn't been mentioned yet when it's arguably the most splashable check is beyond me). All of these but Kelfki outspeed and KO Urshifu from full health, while also providing value in other matchups. Scarf Urshifu can outspeed some of these, but has problems breaking steel as it cannot 2HKO skarmory or corviknight.

On psychic, Scarf Lele is immune to Sucker Punch and outspeeds all but scarf variants, while nothing on either Fighting or Dark really wants to eat a Moonblast. Scarf Urshifu can definitely terrorize psychic teams, but can be played around in a similar way to how Psychic handled mega sharpedo last gen-- colbur berry slowbro with twave, counter zam, and Scarf Latios can all help deal with scarf Urshifu. There is plenty of counterplay to Urshifu that isn't urshifu specific, and I believe that the reason psychic has problems vs dark isn't due to Urshifu itself but the matchup as a whole.

Refusing to adapt to Urshifu doesn't make it broken. I fail to see how this is more "uncompetitive" than matchups like rillaboom vs water/ground and gen7 Mega Sharpedo vs ghost/psychic, neither of which are banworthy. I look forward to voting no ban.
 
I've played a bit of steel and, while there is no real switch into urshifu, this is true for a variety of mons against steel--there's no switch into zeroza, NP hydre, scorching sands Victini, and CM keldeo
Here is the flaw I see with this argument. Zeraora usually doesn't have the room for sub and steel can easily switch around untill excadrill comes in and force it out. NP hydrei has a very simple counter called sub mind moonblast jirachi and in the case of scarf hydrei, scarf jira play rough is an ohko. scor sand victini has an easy switch called balloon heatran. Steel type users simply has to preserve the balloon and victini is kept in check. CM keldeo has decent answers as well. For example, spdef aegis can tank a few hits, break sub, and chip to put in scarf drill eq range. Plus, another I see is the fact that melm can tank several attacks. DIB breaks sub and deals heafty damage in return:
252 SpA Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 272-320 (57.3 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 360-426 (75.9 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(victini doesn't usually carry scor sand to begin with, vcreate needs band to ohko)
+1 252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 306-360 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(doesn't even ohko at +1)
+1 252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 381-448 (80.3 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zeraora Blaze Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 202-238 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO(doesn't 2hko reliably at +1)

Here the thing with ursh:
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 474-560 (100 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Now with psychic.
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Colbur Berry Slowbro on a critical hit: 219-258 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You call this a switch?
Also, you completely glossed over scarf. Fighting and dark can easily sack a mon to bring in scarf ursh and start wrecking havoc. Maybe ursh fell short of a sweep by its team mates and heavily take advantage or thank. Against lele, fighting has coballio
Good players will be able to scoot out lele's set and bring CB ursh under safe circumstances because guess what, if lele is not scarfed, it doesn't outspeed CB ursh and gets ohkoed:
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele on a critical hit: 373-441 (132.7 - 156.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

Also, don't compared mega sharp to ursh. Sharp has much lower defense while having similar spdef. Mega gallade was a decent check to sharp on psychic while ghost had access to mimikyu which at the time can still run sash which allows mimi to ohko sharp. Gengar also outspeed +1 sharp with scarf and ko's with fblast, even if its focus miss, gengar has access to both tbolt and energyball.
 
Long story short, get this shit outta here. If I was using, say, banded Garchomp or specs Toxtricity, I'd need to predict right, as their STABS have immunities, otherwise, all my momentum disappears as I have to switch out next turn (and this is ignoring the possibility that my opponent's team is an immune type in the first place). That's not the case with Urshifu, as Wicked Blow is ridiculously safe, and only three types resist Dark.

Got reqs and will be likely voting no ban on shifu.

I don't believe Urshifu is significantly more imposing than other breakers found in the monotype metagame. One common complaint is how urshifu bodies types like Steel and Psychic. Let's examine these types.

I've played a bit of steel and, while there is no real switch into urshifu, this is true for a variety of mons against steel--there's no switch into zeroza, NP hydre, scorching sands Victini, and CM keldeo. Moreover, these mons are commonly harder to deal with than Urshifu due to the fact they commonly carry Substitute to reduce counterplay. I'd go as far as to claim Urshifu is not steel's main problem in this metagame.

As to counterplay to urshifu itself, there are a few options on steel. There's a variety of revenge killers, including sub Jirachi with moonblast, focus blast cobalion, as well as draining kiss Kelfki, as well as scarf Magnezone (how this hasn't been mentioned yet when it's arguably the most splashable check is beyond me). All of these but Kelfki outspeed and KO Urshifu from full health, while also providing value in other matchups. Scarf Urshifu can outspeed some of these, but has problems breaking steel as it cannot 2HKO skarmory or corviknight.

On psychic, Scarf Lele is immune to Sucker Punch and outspeeds all but scarf variants, while nothing on either Fighting or Dark really wants to eat a Moonblast. Scarf Urshifu can definitely terrorize psychic teams, but can be played around in a similar way to how Psychic handled mega sharpedo last gen-- colbur berry slowbro with twave, counter zam, and Scarf Latios can all help deal with scarf Urshifu. There is plenty of counterplay to Urshifu that isn't urshifu specific, and I believe that the reason psychic has problems vs dark isn't due to Urshifu itself but the matchup as a whole.

Refusing to adapt to Urshifu doesn't make it broken. I fail to see how this is more "uncompetitive" than matchups like rillaboom vs water/ground and gen7 Mega Sharpedo vs ghost/psychic, neither of which are banworthy. I look forward to voting no ban.
That's a bold assumption to assume that your opponent is going to be kind enough to let Urshifu stay in on a ridiculously telegraphed Fairy move. Also...

252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 246-291 (77.3 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Not to mention Draining Kiss doesn't even OHKO (EDIT: and honestly, Klefki has better options for its moveslots), and neither does Scarf Magnezone for that matter:

252+ SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 244-288 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

RE: Cobalion:

0- SpA Cobalion Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Urshifu: 320-380 (93.8 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Focus Blast Cobalion looks good, but one, it's Focus Miss we're talking about here (and after miss chances, you have less than a 50% chance to OHKO iirc), and two, I would honestly consider this unhealthy adaptation; what are you gonna give up for Focus Blast?? Also, Jirachi just gets annihilated if Urshifu is Scarf.

On top of all this, what are you gonna do if Urshifu is behind screens, which is likely to be the case on Dark thanks to Grimmsnarl???
 
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I've played a bit of steel and, while there is no real switch into urshifu, this is true for a variety of mons against steel--there's no switch into zeroza, NP hydre, scorching sands Victini, and CM keldeo.
The problem I have with this is while those moms do dunk on steel, they all generally require a turn to setup (no tini but the point stands). Urshifu doesn’t need that plus it had wicked blow + unseen fist, letting it just click moves without generally any drawback. That in itself makes it uncompetitive and unhealthy for the metagame imo
 
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