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Format Rules
Banlist:
Doubles OU is a format in which both players have two Pokémon on the field at the same time. All Pokémon except those on the banlist (found below) can be used in Doubles OU regardless of the Pokémon's tier in singles play. Unlike in VGC, all Pokémon default to level 100 instead of level 50, and all 6 members of the team are brought each game.
Play Restrictions
Endless Battle Clause: Players cannot use any moveset on any Pokémon capable of intentionally causing an endless battle. Thus:
A Pokémon may not carry Recycle and hold a Leppa Berry in conjunction with Heal Pulse and Milk Drink, Moonlight, Morning Sun, Recover, Roost, Slack Off, Soft-Boiled, or Wish.
A Pokémon may not hold a Leppa Berry while carrying Recycle and Pain Split.
A Pokémon may not hold a Leppa Berry while carrying Recycle and Fling.
Evasion Clause: Players cannot use the moves Double Team or Minimize.
OHKO Clause: Players cannot use the moves Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Drill, or Sheer Cold.
Species Clause: Players cannot have two Pokémon with the same Pokédex number on the same team.
Gravity Sleep Clause: Sleep moves with below one hundred percent accuracy may not be used in conjunction with Gravity.
Dynamax Clause: You cannot dynamax.
Pokémon Restrictions:
Players can only use Pokemon that are currently either obtainable in Pokemon Sword and Shield or transferable to Pokemon Sword and Shield.
Players cannot use the following Pokémon:
Calyrex-Ice
Calyrex-Shadow
Dialga
Eternatus
Giratina
Giratina-Origin
Groudon
Ho-Oh
Jirachi
Kartana
Kyogre
Kyurem-White
Lugia
Lunala
Magearna
Marshadow
Melmetal
Mewtwo
Necrozma-Dawn Wings
Necrozma-Dusk Mane
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Solgaleo
Urshifu (Single Strike)
Xerneas
Yveltal
Zacian
Zacian-Crowned
Zamazenta
Zamazenta-Crowned
Zekrom
Ability Restrictions (Players cannot use the following abilities):
Power Construct
Shadow Tag
Move Restrictions (Players cannot use the following moves):
Pokemon that dominate a large portion of the metagame. They are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon.
Pokemon that are generally strong, but less powerful than those in Tier 2 or Pokemon that require a decent amount of support or a specific team style to function well, but are defining pieces to said archetypes.
This tier contains either Pokemon that have broad applications on a variety of teams, but are simply less effective than those in higher tiers, or are only particularly useful for certain team styles.
Pokemon that, while they have a niche in the metagame, often struggle to find situations where they thrive, either because of the support required or their poor matchups.
How SS Doubles OU became the most hated DOU generation (and why it's good, actually)
This post is mainly just me talking about an increasingly popular sentiment regarding SS DOU. Recently, whenever SS gets brought up for any reason, it feels like its almost immediately hated on by multiple separate people. It's not that I don't think SS has flaws, every generation does. This post is just to examine the main reasons why SS is so hated as a generation from an unbiased perspective. I hope you enjoy the post, lets get into it
Chapter 1: The Rillaboom Problem
I think it's time we address the Grass-type gorilla in the room. Rillaboom is insanely good in SS. Why? The combination of Grassy Surge, Grassy Glide, Fake out and U-Turn gives Rillaboom amazing role compression as a decently strong attacker, utility option, and late game cleaner. Having other great utility options like Knock Off and Taunt (the latter not being particularly relevant) and strong attacking options for your 4th move like High Horsepower and Wood Hammer give Rillaboom respectable damage output as well. Pure Grass-type isn't the best defensive typing, but it does come with its fair share of benefits such as resisting Ground and Water-type attacks. There is no doubt that Rillaboom warps the entire meta around itself, but if Rillaboom is so good and widespread, it begs the question: Is Rillaboom too good?
In my opinion, Rillaboom is not only not nearly as broken as its claimed to be, but a necessary part of the tier's balance. Rillaboom's pure Grass typing and middling speed and bulk mean that it can be forced out by prevalent attackers like Genesect, Celesteela, Naganadel, and so on. If it finds a way to not be immediately forced out by these common and very good Pokémon, its lack of reliable recovery means it is prone to getting worn down over the course of a game without support from its teammates in the form of Heal Pulse or Pollen Puff, especially when hazards enter the equation. Additionally, Rillaboom is a relatively honest Pokémon. It basically has one set, which means at preview, you know what the Rillaboom will most likely be doing. This makes it pretty easy to account for in the builder and plan for on preview and throughout the game. I am not saying Rillaboom is a bad Pokémon. Don't take it that way. This is simply to illustrate the point that Rillaboom is nowhere near the level of being broken or problematic.
To add onto this, it is actually a very healthy and necessary presence in the metagame. Without Rillaboom's unique set of traits, several Pokémon and strategies would quickly prove to be overwhelming. Examples include Urshifu-R, Tapu Fini, Psychic Spam, Landorus, Dragon Dance Zygarde, and so on. These Pokémon are all already very strong in a meta with Rillaboom, and without them I fear that they would become too much, and if it's a decision between all of these Pokémon being suspected and potentially banned and keeping Rillaboom in the tier, I believe the latter is the most logical choice. Not liking Rillaboom is completely understandable, but I find it difficult to deny that its presence is very much necessary to preserve the metagame's balance.
Chapter 2: Ramifications of Eternity
Another common grievance is the length of SS DOU games. Strong defensive win conditions like Calm Mind Tapu Fini, Cosmic Power Metagross, and Iron Defense Ferrothorn being made more viable due to the lower power level of the metagame compared to older generations due to the lack of a generational gimmick and changes to critical hit mechanics can make games last much longer than many players are used to. This is made even more of an annoyance by the prevalence of Fake Out in the tier through Incineroar, Mew, Zeraora, and the notorious Rillaboom. How long DOU games "should" last is a fairly subjective, so I won't be able to objectively prove or disprove this, but I don't personally think this is an issue, and if you do think it is, then other generations should be getting just as much if not more hate for it than SS does.
Other generations like SM can drag just as much as SS does due to the absurd recovery granted to all Pokémon by FIWAM berries (That's Figy, Iapapa, Wiki, Aguav and Mago berries for anyone who doesn't know), and yet don't receive nearly as much hate. Lengthy games in SS aren't even particularly commonplace, as there are tons of teams that force your opponent to play quickly and deny them the space to get these more slow paced defensive win conditions set up (Whimsicott Offense is a good example that has recently exploded in popularity at the tournament level). Even in more slow paced games, I don't think the length of games is inherently a bad thing, and personally quite enjoy it.
If you do want to make the argument that long games are inherently bad, then generations like SM should recieve an equal amount of hate in this regard, as FIWAM berries along with the prevalence of strong defensive win conditions like Tapu Fini supported by great Pokémon like peak Incineroar can cause SM games to last just as long if not longer than SS games can. Even in the examples of long games I linked, none of them even exceeded 30 turns. I do think that SS games on average last longer than in other generations, and if that's a turnoff for you that's perfectly understandable, but I don't think its fair to call the generation bad for something many people who play SS actually enjoy.
Chapter 3: Stop, that tickles!
gotta love it when SS players just shake hands.
Another thing I've seen people complain about is an overall lack of offensive power due to the lack of Mega Evolutions and Z Moves from past generations. I won't spend too much time on this as I briefly touched on this in the last section, but I do not believe this is an issue. There are still a ton of strong Pokémon offensively present in the tier (Zygarde, Heatran, Necrozma, Landorus, Modest Naganadel, Urshifu-R, etc.), and offense is very much a viable playstyle. The prevalence of Whimsicott Offense in SCL II and DPL proves this. I would argue SS is even more offensive than older generations due to the introduction of dynamic speed mechanics making faster Tailwind setters like Whimsicott, Tornadus and Naganadel as well as the more offensive team styles they enable more viable than they would be otherwise. This does come at the cost of bulky Tailwind setters like Suicune ceasing to exist, but SS already gets complaints about being too defensively oriented.
Chapter 4: Where's the lamb SAUCE?!
"So called 'free thinkers' when Incin Rilla Fini"
This is more of a culmination of the past few points, but SS feels more or less solved. There's still room for cool techs and small optimizations, but I don't see the meta being vastly shaken up, at least for the next few years. Due to the best partners for most things being well known, it means a lot of teams can end up looking the same, and as a result looks boring to some players. This is a complaint I actually agree with. It feels very difficult to build anything truly original in this tier without dipping into some questionable Pokémon/set choices, and I don't think there's a good solution to this either other than people just building more, which there isn't really a reason to do when existing teams are already so good. SS DOU appears to, as the kids say, have no sauce. I can't elaborate on this point too much without revealing important DPL stuff, so expect an edit later to further delve into this after DPL is over/my team is eliminated (whichever comes first).
Chapter 5: Dexit
(I don't have an image for this one)
This isn't really the fault of the metagame itself, this is more of a logistical problem with the scope of Pokémon as a whole and how it affects the competitive scene. Dexit means that strategies that would otherwise have potential to be meta defining are neutered due to simply not having the tools to work. Cutting the Pokedex seems inevitable with how large Pokémon has grown due to technical constraints. This is unfortunate, but I see it as a necessary evil to ensure the balance of the metagame. I won't go much further into this though because this is more of a problem with the design philosophy of Pokémon and the logistical problems presented by Game Freak setting the expectation that every Pokémon will be available in every game, which isn't my field of expertise (I'm just here to talk about the funny doubles game). There are some great video essays about this out there if you're interested though.
Conclusion
Overall, I think a lot of the hate that SS gets is overblown and that the metagame is currently very fun and balanced, but writing this post has given me insight into why people don't like it, and I now understand and respect SS haters more as a result. I don't want to paint any of the conclusions I have reached in this post as "correct", because this is ultimately subjective and you are free to like and/or dislike whatever you want. I am just some random girl on the internet, after all. I am simply attempting to examine this metagame in a way that is as unbiased as I can manage from the prespective of someone who frequently plays and has grown to love this tier. I hope this allows people who hate SS to understand why people like it, and vise versa. Thank you for reading, and have a nice day.
Week 1
One day I was daydreaming and this team was formed, I changed some stuff and the team was done. Since I had no scout for Luisin I just brought it because I liked it and HO is good.
Team:
The team is build around Kyube and Gene, both can setup and can overwhelm Incin. Babiri Kyube helps mainly vs Gene but is also good vs Celesteela and Metagross, Fini specs is really good at doing damage and checks some important mons like shifu, diancie and incin, whimsicott provides speed control, it also threatens encore and cotton spore is good vs opposing ho, lando is also good at doing damage and checks opposing lando, incin is a good glue and gene was espeed but it's a bit hard in the ingame to play without tect.
Week 2
I wanted to bring Diancie vs him, because Diancie is broken and Diancie + Volcanion was really strong vs Ninja. I also couldn't lose to sand so I choose this team with unviable lando-t that I used on Invitationals.
Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8doublesou-681263
The mu vs psyspam was good, I just needed to be careful vs Heatran and Mew. Zapdos stayed in the field for a bit too long (I even forgot it could switch out lol) and lando got a crit (unviable) so it made the game a bit harder since it lived the Ice beam, but celesteela could win in the endgame.
Team:
There was a decent amount of thought put into making this team, but I don't remember so pretend I said something that makes sense.
Week 3
Basically whenever Animus faced weather he lost, so I brought rain. I had already used it vs him before, on seasonal, and won too so it looked nice vs him.
Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8doublesou-682295
I played this horribly and he played it really well. Lost too much momentum hitting the wrong slots and couldn't keep tr up, mu wasn't bad and if I eventually set tr then it'd be very hard for him.
Team: I think I stole this team from someone :)
Week 4
This week I asked to be benched and eragon played. I passed him some teams and he used one with Coaching Zeraora + Drain Punch Urshifu-R. Some minutes before the game he changed Drain Punch for CC and I wasn't online (hence I have no blame for this loss and the bad matchup).
Team:
The original team had goggles Heatran and, as I said earlier, Drain Punch Urshifu-R. Also tw was in the 3rd slot (very important).
Week 5
One day I woke up and decided that I wanted to use Blastoise, so I built 2 teams with it (1, 2), they liked the staka team more so I made some changes through the week and the team was ready. I wanted Mew to be Psychic, but I felt the need for all the other 3 moves and TW was very useful on tests, basically Mew can check Zygarde, Lando, Genesect and is nice when paired with Blastoise to damage Volcanion and Incineroar, also Stakataka can 2hko shifu with Gyro Ball (yeah). Volcanion was Earth Power some minutes before the game, but hitting fini felt more valuable, and there was no goggles on the team because I straight up ignored that ShadowMonstr would bring Amoonguss since, as far as I remember, the only time he brought it was vs Crunch in the invitationals finals so I just opted to go Sitrus on Blastoise, which wasn't very ideal considering he actually brought an Amoonguss but everything worked out.
Team:
Stakataka is kinda stupid, band Dragapult is decent and Blastoise is also decent. Goggles is better on Blastoise but I wasn't expecting Amoonguss so I just put sitrus.
Week 6
I spent most part of this week building a team with demon Mew, which wasn't the best idea vs Star but since he didn't main the tier it could work and I also didn't want to think that much during the game I just wanted to setup with Mew and gone gone gone. But he got subbed out for Gasay and I thought it would be a very bad idea to bring demon Mew vs her so I looked in my builder for something that could beat random stuff and decided that I'd used either sand or a team with Diancie.
Replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8doublesou-688264
I haxed a bit but on t1 I lost a decent amount of momentum (she lost 2 mons tho so it was probably worse for her) and when she missed sludge wave on incin (t4) it depends if the naga had a fire move and was modest or not, if it was... well... maybe I would've lost, yeah we'll never know.
Team:
This team is an updated version of this team with specs Fini, Naga and AV Gene. Diancie + Tsareena are a huge threat under tr and the rest of the team cover some weaknesses. This isn't my best team and I think there's room for improvement on it, I had some thoughts but it was too close to the game so I just kept the team like this.
I had a lot of fun this DPL and although we didn't make poffs I'm satisfied with my performance and meeting new players as well as old teammates. I'd like to thank Éric and Tenzai for drafting me, eragon11145 and Hugo for the help through the weeks and MADARAAAA , Ann , RelicanthPrimal and KyleCole , as we played again after winning DPL last year with the ducks. I'm really happy with our overall performance, seeing me, Ann and Madaraaaa evolving so much and having such a good record really shows how far we've come.
SS DOU Personal Viability Rankings + Thoughts on the Meta Post-DPL
Before I start, some quick disclaimers: These are not viability rankings nominations. Those will be in a separate post if I make any nominations at all. Secondly, the tiers in this VR are ordered, but I do think that there's some flexibility in between tiers (for example, the first 12 pokemon could all be argued for top 10 in the tier). This is mainly just to give my thoughts on the current metagame as well as finally talk about DPL tech. This will be structured as a tier list/viability rankings with descriptions for anything that I feel warrants one.
Tier 1
Mew is probably the most dishonest Pokémon in this tier. It has an insane amount of sets and there's no real way to tell what set it's using until the user chooses to reveal it. In my opinion, the best sets are Trick Room Offensive sets, Ice Beam/Volt Switch/Fake Out/Filler sets and Snarl + Wisp sets with Pollen Puff/Super Fang. Other sets like Hazard Stack and Encore Mew are also decent in my opinion, but are more team specific and harder to just slap on a team. Mew is the best Tailwind user in the tier probably due to it's plethora of broken utility moves (Super Fang, Pollen Puff, Spikes/Stealth Rock, Coaching, etc.) while still having surprisingly decent damage output due to it's wide coverage movepool allowing it to hit so many things for super effective damage. Pollen Puff is a pretty underrated option on Mew I feel like, and you should try to use it whenever possible. The amount of longevity Pollen Puff Mew can give teams is insane, and lets you play Pokémon like AV Genesect and Urshifu much less conservatively. These sets capitalize on the fact that they trade damage favorably with almost everything in the tier, but they get worn down quickly if used recklessly, and often need to preserve their HP for specific threats. Pollen Puff allows you to get around this downside, and makes them much harder to deal with. Mew is kinda hard to talk about just because of the sheer amount of options it has, I really don't think anything I can say can really do it justice.
Tapu Fini is interesting because it feels like everyone has a different opinion on what it's best set is, but everyone agrees it's extremely good. In my opinion, Calm Mind Tapu Fini is probably its best set, with Choice Scarf being an extremely close second. Calm Mind is an extremely potent win condition when paired with pokemon that can remove Rillaboom like Genesect and Celesteela, as Tapu Fini's other checks like Kyurem-Black, Zeraora and Amoonguss are all declining in usage. Choice Scarf takes advantage of Tapu Fini's utility options like Trick, Nature's Madness and Heal Pulse while providing it immediate speed to deal with fast threats like Landorus, Dragapult and Pheromosa. This set can also afford to be pivoted around more often due to not being a win condition itself. This makes it a really strong option when paired with other bulky win conditions like Ferrothorn and Cosmic Power Metagross. Choice Specs is also good, but requires support from Whimsicott more often than not and is generally much more team specific. Tapu Fini can do pretty much anything due to its wide movepool, good defensive typing and Misty Surge ability, and keeps a ton of other brokens in check (Urshifu-R, Pheromosa, Dracovish, Psyspam, etc.).
Incineroar is the best Fire-type in the tier currently. It's an extremely potent utility pivot that fits on pretty much every team style. I don't even know what I can say about Incineroar that hasn't already been said. Its matchup into Genesect is subpar compared to Volcanion and Heatran, this isn't a particularly difficult thing to account for when teambuilding by pairing it with Pokémon like AV Urshifu and Celesteela which have favorable Genesect matchups and appreciate Incineroar support anyway, as well as using another Pokémon that also has a Fire-type move to hit Genesect. It doesn't love the presence of Hazards effectively taking away its item slot, as its basically forced to run Heavy-Duty Boots, but hazards are so common that you're getting value out of the item slot more often than not. Overheat Incineroar is also a pretty cool development that allows it to beat Iron Defense Ferrothorn (and can also in theory be used on Whimsicott Offense in combination with Fake Tears).
Tier 2
There's a lot to talk about here. Assault Vest Genesect is the best set and is probably just straight up busted. It's insanely good at trading damage with basically everything and is the most consistent Rillaboom check in the tier. A ton of teams enjoy that kind of support, which makes it an extremely splashable set. AV Genesect also has a good amount of flexibility with its moveset (It can run Ice Beam over Flamethrower, Gunk Shot or Thunderbolt over Iron Head, etc.) and is a good slow pivot with U-Turn. Extreme Speed doesn't do massive damage but it can pick off weakened targets without having to commit to locking into the move like a Choice Band set would. Its other sets are good too. Choice Band is a good late game cleaner with Extreme Speed, Choice Scarf provides some immediate speed to teams and is a good fast U-Turn pivot, and Shift Gear can be a potent surprise win condition. It has a ton of sets that are great independently of each other and is extremely splashable. You could argue Genesect for Tier 1 and I wouldn't disagree at all.
Urshifu is also absolutely insane. Life Orb and Choice Band sets are fine, but the best set is without a doubt Assault Vest. Assault Vest is extremely hard to remove while taking huge chunks out of things with Close Combat and Surging Strikes. It trades damage favorably with most of the tier, and bulky Water-types are always good to have, especially in this meta where a lot of the checks to them are becoming less popular. Bulky waters are so good, you can even run more than one of them on a team by pairing AV Urshifu with Tapu Fini with Coaching Zeraora. This team archetype gained popularity during SCL II and DPL, and while I think its overhyped personally, it's hard to deny its efficiency when you look at the data.
Porygon2 is stupidly bulky and provides every team its own with a ton of value for a single team slot. Having a consistent switch in to 90% of attacks in the tier, a check to a ton of common mons and speed control compressed into one team slot is just insanely valuable, and can carry teams on its own due to the fact that it just does so much. Most of the things commonly cited as weaknesses with Porygon2 don't even feel that detrimental in practice. Knock Off is the main example that comes to mind. Porygon2 is still pretty bulky, even after getting Eviolite Knocked Off. It's not something you want to happen, and you should pair it with pokemon that can absorb Knock Off for it, but it's not the end of the world. Poeygon2 is super underutilized right now imo, amazing mon
Volcanion is a really splashable bulky attacker that fits nicely on semiroom but doesn't really need Trick Room to function. Similarly to Urshifu, you can slap an Assault Vest on it and run a ton of Special Defense and just trade damage with things (which is an amazing set btw), but it can also run Safety Goggles or Shuca Berry with utility options like Haze, Toxic and Substitute. Pretty flexible mon, I like it a lot.
Landorus alone does so much damage that it can take otherwise passive teams and give them a ton of offensive momentum. Substitute Landorus is the best set by far in my opinion, but other 4th moves like Psychic and Stealth Rock are also good. Focus Blast is amazing on paper but inconsistent. There are rarely board states where you need to click Focus Blast and are also okay with losing your Landorus if it doesn't hit.
Tyranitar notably enables Hazard Stack structures seen in DPL, but can also enable Dracovish and Dracozolt teams, which are also very strong. Tyranitar's Sandstorm along with Stealth Rock allows you to spread a ton of damage with Dragon Tail and Rock Slide, allowing late game cleaners like Choice Band Genesect and the fossils to run over teams once they have been broken down by the chip from hazards. There's not really much I can say that hasn't already been said, but its a solid mon.
Strong Trick Room attacker with a decent amount of moveset variety. I like running Diancie with a secondary Trick Room setter like Mew or Porygon2 to get Trick Room up more consistently and allowing DIancie to save its HP to act as an attacker under Trick Room without taking too much damage while attempting to set it up. Can be kind of hard to use at times, but undeniably strong.
Whimsicott enables an entire playstyle on its own. The combination of Prankster Tailwind providing an instant speed advantage as well as Fake Tears/Helping Hand allowing its partners to pick up constant OHKOs is really good at enabling offensive teams to break through fat balance stuff. There are even techs like Cotton Spore you can run for the mirror. A cool development is that Whimsicott doesn't actually need Focus Sash in this meta when you invest in its bulk. Usually you can EV it to be bulky enough to survive at least one big hit and either heal back up with Sitrus Berry or Eject Button out into a more offensive teammate to preserve momentum.
I feel like a lot of teams right now don't respect Celesteela. It's a very potent offensive threat with the highest snowball potential outside of maybe Nihilego. It's a consistent Rillaboom check and is really good at exploiting passive, bulkier teams. It benefits a lot from recent metagame trends like Whimsicott becoming more popular, AV Urshifu pairing well with it and hazards making it easier for Celesteela to pick up OHKOs. It's not the easiest thing to use because you need to learn how to play around attempts at baiting Meteor Beam, but when played well its a very potent win condition.
Choice Band Zygarde is really good at spreading damage around on teams that have good Rillaboom checks, and is more than capable of breaking through teams when supported by Tailwind from Whimsicott. Dragon Dance is one of the strongest win conditions in the tier if you have consistent ways of removing Rillaboom, and becomes especially ridiculous when paired with Coaching from Mew or Zeraora. You could argue Zygarde to Tier 3 and I wouldn't disagree super hard, but I don't really like Landorus and Zygarde being a whole tier apart because I don't really think Zygarde is that much worse than Landorus.
Tier 3
Pheromosa is an interesting pokemon to rank because, if played perfectly, it's most likely much higher than it is on this list. If you can play Pheromosa in a way where its trading up consistently, its an insanely potent cleaner/attacker with amazing coverage. The problem is, most people aren't playing Pheromosa perfectly, and getting even a single turn wrong with Pheromosa means it will probably die. Because of this, it usually just trades 1 for 1 a lot of the time in my experience, which is why I ranked it the way I did. It feels pretty similar to Deoxys-A in past generations. Great damage output, but if you get even one turn wrong it dies. Pheromosa has lower damage output than Deoxys-A, but Pheromosa's typing and better bulk means it can at least switch in on stuff like Rillaboom Grassy Glide and not instantly die.
Speaking of Pheromosa, outside of Tapu Fini, I find Spectrier to be the most consistent check to Pheromosa. People originally started looking at Spectrier because of Grassy Seed sets, but I actually think Leftovers is the best item for it on a lot of teams. Combined with Grassy Terrain, Leftovers gives Spectrier a disgusting amount of recovery each turn and can allow it to heal back up to full HP from like 40%. This does mean that you now have an item that can be Knocked Off by Zeraora and Incineroar, but its not really Spectrier's job to beat either of these Pokémon, and you should be pairing it with good Incineroar checks anyway. Grassy Seed is fine on more offensive teams where Spectrier won't be switching as much, but on bulkier teams I think Leftovers is the most flexible choice. Calm Mind Spectrier is another interesting development that I think has a good amount of potential in theory. Spectrier often only needs a +1 boost to start breaking through things in endgames, and Calm Mind has the added benefit of making Spectrier bulkier. The last slot is basically a free slot that can be anything, but I have found WIll-O-Wisp and Substitute to be the most consistent.
I don't think this is too controversial, but I actually think Dragapult is a little bit worse than Spectrier. Spectrier has better utility with similar damage output, even without Nasty Plot. Dragapult has better coverage, but Ghost is already a good offensive typing because of how spammable it is, so Spectrier often times doesn't even feel like it needs coverage. Dragapult is still pretty good though. U-Turn is a very strong tool that Spectrier doesn't have, and Dragapult has a better defensive typing. The higher Speed and ability to beat Naganadel and Zygarde is also pretty relevant. Dragapult's unique speed tier means you can actually invest more in your bulk to live attacks like Zeraora Knock Off and Landorus Earth Power.
Heatran just feels really hard to justify in this meta and is probably the worst Fire-type right now (Volcarona is not a real pokemon and does not count). It's not bad, I just feel like in most situations I would rather use Volcanion or just not use a Fire-type at all. The main exception to this is Psyspam, where Heatran is a popular option, but Volcanion is a perfectly usable option on Psyspam that has a fair amount of benefits over Heatran, so even there its not irreplacable by any means.
Rain is interesting because I do think its very strong, but its not particularly difficult to prep for if you know its coming. I think the Porygon2 version is a little bit stronger than the Urshifu-R version, but they're both fine.
Metagross was a lot stronger when Cosmic Power was first discovered and it was more fringe, but now its a meta set and people actually prep for it, which makes it a lot worse. Standard Metagross is also just not particularly special right now, stuff like Genesect and Celesteela are already perfectly capable of filling the bulky Steel-type role. The best thing about standard Metagross is it learns Stealth Rock and doesn't hate using the move, which is pretty rare in this tier outside of Mew and Tyranitar.
Naganadel also fell off pretty hard. Whimsicott took its place as the fast hyper offense Tailwind setter, but Naganadel is also very strong when paired with Whimsicott. Choice Scarf Naganadel seems stupid at first, but the more I use it the more I like it. The idea is basically you use the stupid amount of speed Choice Scarf Naganadel has to clean late game while moving before basically everything. Its so fast that it can even outspeed a lot of stuff in Tailwind and Dracovish/Dracozolt in Sand, which is just ridiculous. Focus Sash Naganadel is also fine on Psyspam where Whimsicott is less effective, but Whimsicott is still a strong option on Psyspam thats arguably better than Naganadel.
Amoonguss is just kinda mid. Hard to justify over Rillaboom, hates Misty Terrain, hates Psyspam trending down in usage, and being a Grass-type that doesn't resist Ground feels extremely detrimental. It has some strong traits like Regenerator and Pollen Puff, but they're not nearly enough to make up for its many downsides.
Tier 4
Ferrothorn is an extremely potent win condition, but requires the entire team to be built around it, with over half of the team being borderline irreplacable. I think its good, its just very inflexible in terms of teambuilding and only really has one set.
Lurantis has a similar problem of being really strong, but very limiting when building around it. Being able to actually punish the high Incineroar usage in this meta with Contrary is really nice, but unlike other pokemon like Galarian Zapdos, Lurantis doesn't need your opponent to use Incineroar to get value, and can win much more dominantly when Incineroar is used because it isn't forced to damage itself or lock itself into a move to do damage.
Coaching Zeraora is straight up busted, Coaching is an incredible move and Zeraora is the fastest viable user of it. AV Snarl is also an okay set, but the rest of Zeraora's sets are pretty bad, so it averages out to being Tier 4.
Good Trick Room attacker that's mainly used to exploit Diancie teams, but is also just generally a strong attacker under Trick Room with good snowball potential. It has pretty bad 4mss but you can use its teammates to cover the weaknesses it would otherwise have to spend a moveslot on, so it's not as bad in practice if you build well.
My opinion has shifted to Dracozolt being better than Dracovish, but not by a lot and I don't think they should be an entire tier apart. The cool thing about Dracozolt is its very good at exploiting the high amount of bulky waters running around right now, with some teams even running more than one. Unlike Dracovish, it also has pretty decent coverage and a Dragon-type STAB option, and even some utility options like Taunt and Substitute. Dracozolt just does an insane amount of damage and has synergy with some of the best Pokémon in the tier. Pretty solid, surprised its not used more.
Dracovish faces competition with other strong Water-types like Urshifu and Choiced Tapu Fini, but its still ludicrously strong and something you need to respect in your building. The benefits over Dracozolt are that Water-type coverage hits a ton of relevant targets harder, like Diancie and Landorus, and its better defensive typing meaning it gets more opportunities to actually switch in.
Same thing as rain really. Can be strong if your opponent doesn't respect it but isn't hard to prep for, but Psyspam counters are a lot more widespread right now than Rain counters it feels like, which is why I ranked it lower.
Covered this mon in my viability rankings nominations before the gen ended, and my thoughts haven't changed much. This mon honestly kinda sucks, and I don't see it getting any better anytime soon. It feels like most teams just end up having good matchups into it accidentaily because its checks are pokemon you want to be using for other, more relevant reasons anyway. In my building for DPL I never really even considered it as a threat, and none of my teams feel weak to it at all.
Pretty solid redirector when you pair it with pokemon that can remove Rillaboom. I think its pretty underutilized, it has pretty good utility options and a solid defensive typing.
It has high snowball potential and can definitely be a threat, but Celesteela mostly outclasses it imo
I respect it, but I don't think its very good. Its STAB options forcing it to take recoil/lower its stats really limits its ability to take over games in response to catching reckless Intimidates or Snarls in the way something like Lurantis can, and the fact that it has to lock into a move also isn't great. I've thought about Life Orb Substitute Zapdos-G but I've never been able to make it work on a team.
Strong on rain and blocking priority is undeniably valuable in this meta, but its hard to justify dropping Rillaboom for it a lot of the time. Definitely has its place though
Rain Zapdos is like mid-high tier 3 but rainless Zapdos is UR, so it balances out to being low Tier 4, borderline Tier 5
Tier 5
Kinda fell off. Calm Mind doesn't feel like as potent of a win condition as Ferrothorn or Metagross, and Trick Room Cresselia doesnt even feel that much better than just using Trick Room Mew, which is more flexible and customizable to your team than Cresselia is.
Terracott is absolutely real. Whimsicott offense is already a strong playstyle without Beat Up, and Beat up lets you threaten an instant win on top of that. Terrakion is naturally strong enough that you don't even necessarily need Beat Up for it to put in work. You just need to be sure to pair it with strong Rillaboom checks like Celesteela.
Sylveon is also real. Substitute Calm Mind Sylveon has a fair bit of advantages over Calm Mind Tapu Fini. Hyper Voice is better at spreading damage around into teams, Sylveon does significantly more damage than Tapu Fini and Sylveon allows you to run other Water-types like Urshifu and Volcanion without typestacking. I don't think its top tier, but its not actually a bad mon in my opinion.
Assault Vest utility Tapu Koko is actually decent. It has a pretty unique set of traits that, while it requires a pretty specific team to work, can enable some really interesting stuff.
My take on terracott. I think the Terrakion EVs live Choice Band Thousand Arrows from Zygarde and outspeed Landorus with enough Attack to OHKO Landorus with Hard Stone Stone Edge at +2 or higher, but I don't remember. Spectrier is surprisingly really strong on Whimsicott offense. Snarl + Wisp is strong utility, but you can also threaten to start picking up OHKOs with Fake Tears + Shadow Ball
Actuarily used a similar team against me in test games before DPL. I thought the structure was interesting and had used similar stuff in the past, so I decided to try it but edit some of the sets. I didn't really build this, but I think its a really strong team and is probably my favorite Ferrothorn team right now
Thats pretty much everything I wanted to talk about. Bye :3.
^ I will update this post with all replays and usage stats when regular season ends and also post my own thoughts on the metagame in a separate post once playoffs end for my team, for now I just wanted to thank those who still regularly post about SS to this day as well as everyone else who is still, like me, very enthusiast about SS as a whole, it's great to see it hasn't lost its hype even after generation ended.
Anyways enough with my own ramblings I have some news to share: we have finally assembled a (unofficial) council!
Shoutouts to ActuarilyNailsSMB and zoe for joining me
That is all for now but expect some more news soon o7
^ I will update this post with all replays and usage stats when regular season ends and also post my own thoughts on the metagame in a separate post once playoffs end for my team, for now I just wanted to thank those who still regularly post about SS to this day as well as everyone else who is still, like me, very enthusiast about SS as a whole, it's great to see it hasn't lost its hype even after generation ended.
Anyways enough with my own ramblings I have some news to share: we have finally assembled a (unofficial) council!
Shoutouts to ActuarilyNailsSMB and zoe for joining me
That is all for now but expect some more news soon o7
^ Usage stats and replays for SS in DPL have been updated.
Now, I should probably share a little about future plans such as vr updates but to be frank...I'm not sure when it's going to happen anymore. We were in agreement for a vr update to happen soon after DPL so you should still expect it to happen somewhat soon but I do not have access to our council chat anymore as I have been kicked from all councils I was in after I quit sv council (unsure whether it was announced yet), I did ask a moderator if there was any reasoning given as I did not quit from ss (nor sm for that matter) and I was told there was not. I have not yet heard a single word from leadership about it nor I was asked but I think they are well aware of this fact, I will give them the benefit of the doubt that it was a "silly misunderstanding" but I'll just assume now there is no need for me to manage this thread anymore so as it currently stands this will be my last post ^^.
This post was inspired by the post DPL survey results, in which people allegedly called for a Kartana retest (among other things). This post was originally just giving my thoughts on a Kartana retest, but eventually pivoted to a full documentary of Kartana in SS DOU and whether or not it could potentially re-enter the tier. I don't expect a Kartana retest to happen anytime soon. The tier leaders are busy people that have lives and SV DOU requires their attention much more. In fact, I actively do not want this to happen in the near future so that the tier leaders can put more energy into current gen, but this is still quite an interesting thing to think about.
How good was Kartana ACTUALLY?
Generation 7
Kartana was introduced in Generation 7, where it was... ranked at Tier 5 until USUM came out. Before USUM, Kartana did not have access to Tailwind, which would become a massive part of Kartana's identity later down the line. After gaining Tailwind, Kartana started receiving more attention from players. Originally, Kartana used offensive sets with Grassium/Fightinium Z to break through Volcanion/Tapu Fini and Incineroar respectively. Less commonly, Kartana could opt for a Z Tailwind set to boost the critical hit rate of Leaf Blade to 50%. The idea of boosting Kartana's crit rate will be important later, but as of right now there were quite a few problems with this strategy, mainly the inflexibility caused by losing the critical hit boost upon switching Kartana out. Kartana would later pivot to a bulkier Tailwind set with a FIWAM berry and heavy Special Defense investment. Kartana has a lot of helpful resistances in the tier, and Kartana's Attack stat is so naturally high that it doesn't need to invest in it to deal good damage.
Kartana was undeniably good in Generation 7, but had a good amount of counterplay. All relevant Mega Evolutions had favorable matchups into Kartana, which allowed virtually every team to have a servicable Kartana matchup. Additionally, Incineroar was at its best in Generation 7, and Kartana didn't have much counterplay to Intimidate. Overall, Kartana found success by compressing the role of a bulky Tailwind setter with helpful resistances and a powerful attacker with good offensive coverage. It was a strong, but decidedly balanced Pokémon in the SM DOU metagame.
Generation 8 (Pre Kartana Ban)
Why was Kartana broken in Generation 8? A few factors contributed to Kartana's ban, the most obvious being the outright removal of Mega Evolutions. Without being able to fall back on the Mega Evolutions that were used on virtually every team, players now had to make more of a conscious effort to check Kartana in the teambuilder. Additionally, the addition of Urshifu-R gave Kartana a partner that conveniently ignored Intimidate via its signature move Surging Strikes, which always lands a critical hit and cannot be blocked by Protect due to its ability Unseen Fist. Kartana couldn't have asked for a better partner in crime, as Urshifu had favorable matchups into almost all available Kartana checks, while Kartana invalidated Tapu Fini and provided Urshifu-R with speed control via Tailwind to allow it to counteract its awkward speed tier. Speaking of Tailwind, Generation 8 introduced dynamic speed, causing Tailwind to take effect immediately. This made faster Tailwind setters better than slower ones generally, and Kartana had a high enough Speed tier to have a faster Tailwind than other popular Tailwind setters at the time like Zapdos and Mew. The last factor in Kartana's domination of the metagame is its adoption of a Scope Lens set. The additional critical hit rate boosted Leaf Blade's chance to crit to 50%, similarly to the Z Tailwind sets Kartana used in Generation 7. The difference here is that the boost to Kartana's critical hit rate stays upon switching out and doesn't require Kartana to use Tailwind first. This allowed Kartana to ignore Intimidate itself, albeit with less frequency than Urshifu-R's guaranteed Surging Strikes crits. Hyper Offense teams built around the offensive pairing of Urshifu-R and Kartana made bulkier team styles that couldn't match the level of immediate speed and power these teams had much more difficult to use, as defensive win conditions like Tapu Fini and Trick Room setters like Diancie and Porygon2 were simply never presented with the opportunity to set up. No one thing made Kartana go from manageable to broken, but its potent role compression as well as the several new tools and partners it gained access to this generation forced teams to allocate so many resources in the builder towards having a good matchup into Kartana offense that they were all but forced to use offense themselves.
Trick Room and Balance teams essentially disappeared, as players began using Tailwind setters like Latias and Naganadel to have a faster Tailwind than Kartana while resisting its relevant attacks. The presence of Kartana even caused otherwise terrible Pokémon like Buzzwole and Togekiss to see actual use due to their good matchups into Kartana Offense teams. In conclusion, the reason Kartana was banned is because it was a combination of a great enabler for its teammates via Tailwind as well as nontrivial to answer offensively. The amount of resources you had to put towards beating Kartana in the teambuilder caused teambuilding to become relatively stale, which led to Kartana's ban from standard play in late 2021.
Generation 8 (Post Kartana Ban)
The most obvious and immediate beneficiaries of the Kartana ban were Tapu Fini and Diancie. Tapu Fini was no longer invalidated by Grass Spam cores like Kartana + Rillaboom, and all of its checks could now be Intimidated or checked through bulky Steel-types like Metagross and Genesect. This made Tapu Fini Balance teams much more usable, and these teams became even more prevalent with the resurgence of hazards near the end of SS DOU's time as current generation. Additionally. Diancie teams became much easier to use after Kartana's ban, as it now had more opportunities to actually set Trick Room. This, by extension, made its common partners like Volcanion better as well.
After Kartana's ban, Urshifu-R became much more manageable, and would later pivot to a defensive Assault Vest set to counteract its low Special Defense stat and trade damage with some of the strongest special attackers in the tier. Offensive teams had much less of a stranglehold over the metagame by this point, as players pivoted to using Naganadel as the main offense Tailwind setter. Naganadel's great damage output and high Speed stat allowed Naganadel to function in a largely similar way to Kartana. Nagandel's poor bulk and defensive typing and inability to fit Protect into its moveset without losing out on valuable coverage made it much easier to play around, though. Later into the development of the metagame, Whimsicott Offense became the standard for Offensive teams that wanted a fast Tailwind, and Naganadel instead pivoted to being a powerful attacker when paired with Whimsicott rather than a standalone Tailwind setter, as Naganadel Offense often got overwhelmed by Whimsicott Offense's more immediate speed and power.
Overall, as the metagame developed, teams became bulkier and put more of a focus on either residual damage through hazards and positioning strong late game cleaners like Choice Band Genesect and Landorus or defensive win conditions like Tapu Fini to win endgames after the opponent's team has been broken down enough. Offense still very much exists in the form of Whimsicott Offense, but defensive teams becoming increasingly common frustrates some players.
A Kartana Retest?
A Kartana retest, on some level, does make sense to me. Reintroducing Kartana would shake up the metagame and cause Offense to become more common, and Kartana could potentially be manageable in current SS given how much the metagame has developed and the general playerbase improving.
Firstly, its worth questioning whether or not Kartana would even be broken in current SS DOU given the current state of the metagame. A lot has changed since Kartana's ban, but the most relevant change to this discussion is the increase in popularity of Whimsicott Offense. Whimsicott Offense will always have a faster Tailwind than Kartana Offense teams, and can overwhelm them with strong special attackers boosted even further by Whimsicott's Fake Tears.
I am willing to concede that Whimsicott teams would most likely match up well into Kartana teams, I don't think this is solving the problem caused by Kartana's presence. In Kartana meta, we had Tailwind setters that had favorable matchups into Kartana already. The problem wasn't specifically Kartana, but the fact that the presence of Kartana invalidated most bulky teams and forced the meta into Offense wars where teams compete for a faster Tailwind. Whimsicott is not solving this problem, and if anything it actually contributes to it. Kartana does cause offensive teams to become more common, but that's not necessarily a good thing if said offensive teams dominate the metagame and invalidate anything else. You can have offensive metas where bulky teams are still a viable option (see: BW DOU), and I think current SS DOU strikes a pretty good balance between offensive and defensive teams.
I will say that, while I think Kartana will still most likely be broken in SS, I'm not against a retest. I doubt Kartana would end up being manageable, but I actually want to be proven wrong. I would be interested to see how Kartana would interact with the current meta, and if nothing else I would have an excuse to play more SS games for the suspect test. My main worry is really just whether or not SS has the playerbase for a Kartana retest, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the metagame itself so I won't get into it.
Conclusion
I don't really have much else to say but do not know how to end this post, so thank you for reading and have a nice day.
The CB Strong Jaw set with Prankster Tailwind support is very strong and one-shots most targets that aren't resists, and Dracovish has a reasonable amount of bulk for how strong it is too.
At first I just thought it was good on the one Z Strats rain team from last SCL but I've started tossing vish on other builds like some of the Whimsicott Fake Tears builds where Fini would normally go and Dracovish also goes extremely hard on those. (Here's an example I've been using lately in tests - replay 1, replay 2).
I think currently Dracovish's ranking as Tier 4 is based on the assumption that it's an inferior Sand Rush sweeper compared to Dracozolt, but imo that's the wrong set to be using Dracovish for when it's so strong with Strong Jaw + speed control.
EDIT:
I think one of the things ppl forget about Fishous Rend is that it doesn't just solo stuff by being faster. it also gets the 170 from attacking a mon that hard switched out into something else. so if you have something line incin pinned that you know can't tect, you're thanos'ing that shit even without the speed advantage
Stakataka semiroom is easily the most consistent and probably the best Trick Room archetype I have ever used. Its a stupidly strong Trick Room setter and attacker that has the added benefit of being good into other semiroom teams due to underspeeding and OHKOing everything in the tier, including other Trick Room Pokémon. Stakataka has a really good matchup spread and has really few matchups where it feels like dead weight. Its almost always taking at least one KO in every game its in. I don't even really think its that restrictive to build around anymore. Cresselia is obviously really good with Stakataka, but Stakataka doesn't need Cresselia by any means. You can just as easily pair it with Trick Room Mew or pair it with Amoonguss or Blastoise and use it as a standalone Trick Room setter, which allows it to fit on a wider variety of teams. Its pretty useless outside of Trick Room in a lot of games, but it does so much damage in Trick Room that it makes up for it. This also isn't really a Stakataka specific issue, Diancie can also have this problem. The only Trick Room setter that doesn't have this problem to some extent is Porygon2, which is bulky enough to function in and outside of Trick Room. Despite having much higher high points than Diancie, its low points are also much lower with a worse defensive typing and being less splashable, so I do think it should be a tier lower than it, but I can pretty confidently say Stakataka is better than the rest of tier 4 by a wide margin.
I nommed this last time, and after using it more my opinion has not changed, this mon is criminally underrated. Its pretty splashable, being able to fit on offense, balance, and trick room teams. Its good defensive typing and bulk when paired with its amazing snowball potential make it really hard for a lot of balance teams to deal with, especially when paired with Whimsicott or Pollen Puff users like Mew and Amoonguss. It can be walled by Steel and Fire-types after using Meteor Beam, but the most popular Steel-type right now is Genesect by a pretty wide margin, which does not resist Air Slash. Incineroar and Volcanion are also the most popular Fire-types by a wide margin and also do not switch in well to boosted Air Slash. 4 -> 3
Dracovish in rain has the single highest damage output in the tier and can even OHKO bulky resists like Rillaboom:
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom in Rain: 434-511 (107.4 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Tapu Fini in Rain: 294-346 (85.4 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Urshifu-Rapid-Strike in Rain: 399-470 (98.7 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Tsareena in Rain: 357-421 (102.5 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 228 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black in Rain: 399-470 (89 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
It's not just restricted to rain teams either, it can also fit on Whimsicott teams in place of or even alongside Tapu Fini. Dracovish when supported by Prankster Tailwind OHKOs most of the tier, and attempting to stall out Tailwind with Protect or Fake Out can be Encored with Whimsicott. Funnily enough, this pairing was originally considered a ladder gimmick for several years, but now that Whimsicott teams are already good teams without Dracovish, when you add something such volatile damage output it makes the team style so much more threatening as a result. Cotton Spore Whimsicott makes Dracovish especially oppressive, as outspeeding it becomes even more difficult and Whimsicott mirrors become more manageable. I don't entirely disagree with Tier 2 (which feels so crazy to say after this mon being a ladder gimmick for 3+ years), but I'm not convinced its an entire tier better than Dracozolt right now, so Tier 3 feels more reasonable to me
3 -> 4
Psyspam is just kinda bad imo. Psyspam on paper is really strong, but because its so strong the metagame adapted pretty hard to it, which makes it pretty mid in practice. It loses really hard to dual terrain teams or even single terrain teams if you run Dark-types/Snarl/Steel Roller. The Nails Hazard Stack sample, one of the most popular teams in the tier, literally has 6 Psyspam checks as an example. The Cosmic Power Metagross sample also has 5 Psyspam checks and AV Kyurem-B. Teams like this aren't even uncommon, these are very commonly used teams in tournament games. Psychic Spam also struggles with Ground-types like Zygarde and Landorus in speed control due to having no Ground-type resists other than Pheromosa, which is not a real resist to anything because its still getting 2HKOd just like everything else. Psyspam's bad matchups aren't unplayable (dual terrain can range from 60-40 to 80-20 matchups for example) and it does have outwardly good matchups like Rain, but if you have subpar matchups into almost every team style and are banking on your opponent loading up rain to get a favorable matchup, you do not have a good team, you have a matchup fish (both figuratively and literally, as you are relying on your opponent bringing fish). Rain isn't even unplayable into Psyspam, as some variants will run Assault Vest Steel Roller Ferrothorn. Its one of the most inconsistent archetypes in the tier and the payoff of using this instead of standard Whimsicott offense or something is just not big enough to justify it.
there are replays of psyspam winning difficult matchups like dual terrain too, but these are pretty clearly the exception and not the rule. Looking at usage and winrates, in both scl, dpl and invitationals, indeedee and lele never got above even a 50% winrate. in dpl, Tapu Lele was 17th in usage with a 44% winrate and indeedee was even worse at 39th in usage with a 50% winrate. For reference, Stakataka, which is currently tier 4, was 26th in usage with a 60% winrate. Psyspam is not only being outperformed by other tier 3s like Ferrothorn and Metagross, but even supposedly tier 4 pokemon and archetypes like Stakataka and Rain teams. I really don't see the argument for psyspam being anywhere above tier 4 to be completely honest, its inconsistent at best and a matchup fish at worst, and is consistently outperformed by the rest of tier 3 and even some tier 4s.
2 -> 1
I am once again nominating Tapu Fini to tier 1. This is now my third post nominating Tapu Fini to tier 1, and as such will be the most extensive. Tapu Fini's good defensive profile, Misty Surge ability and deep movepool allow it to check a wide variety of the tier's offensive threats, and is arguably necessary to keep some otherwise banworthy pokemon from becoming too much for the tier. Misty Surge allows it to block status like Spore for its teammates, severely neutering Amoonguss and resetting the Psychic Terrain it's commonly paired with. Tapu Fini could easily be your only counterplay to sleep and you would have more than a playable matchup into it. Speaking of resetting Psychic Terrain, its one of two viable pokemon that's able to remove Psychic Terrain not including moves like Defog and Steel Roller. If you don't have Rillaboom and/or Tapu Fini on your team, your team probably loses to Psychic Spam. Its one of the few consistent switch ins to offensive threats like Urshifu, Pheromosa and Kingdra, and any team without Tapu Fini is going to have to rely much more on predictions to beat these pokemon, especially in the case of Pheromosa and Kingdra. By simply having Tapu Fini on your team, you automatically have an Amoonguss and Psychic Spam matchup and a consistent switch in to some of the strongest attackers in the tier. The amount of value and utility Tapu Fini gives a team universally, regardless of set for a single team slot is nearly unmatched by any other pokemon in the tier. And this isn't even considering the additional value Tapu Fini provides to its team depending on the moveset
The best set for Tapu Fini is most likely Choice Specs. Choice Specs combines Tapu Fini's defensive utility with immediate damage output. Both of Tapu Fini's other sets can struggle with being too passive and unable to make progress in some board states, and Choice Specs fixes this weakness by bolstering Tapu Fini's damage output. Tapu Fini has surprisingly good coverage, and common Tapu Fini checks like Rillaboom can't afford to switch in on it multiple times safely, as Choice Specs Moonblast/Ice Beam deal massive damage to it, and a potential Trick runs the risk of having a severely crippled Rillaboom for the rest of the game. This along with Tapu Fini's ability to switch in on Rillaboom to remove Grassy Glide's priority actually makes it a Water-type capable of significantly contributing into Rillaboom. The only other Water-type in the tier that can do this is Volcanion, which is also a Fire-type. Choice Specs Tapu Fini does need to be paired with speed control, but doesn't really mind whether that speed control is Tailwind or Trick Room, as its middling speed stat allows it to function in both, contributing further to this set's splashability. When used with Whimsicott specifically it gains access to the ability to tear through teams with Fake Tears boosted attacks, making its already decently powerful attacks even more threatening, to the point where Tapu Fini is a staple on virtually all Whimsicott teams. In short, Choice Specs Tapu Fini excels at providing immediate damage to its team coupled with the inherent utility of having a Tapu Fini on your team. This role compression makes it a staple on Whimsicott offense, one of the strongest archetypes in the format at the moment, as well as finding a decidedly more niche role on Trick Room teams.
Tapu Fini's second main set is Choice Scarf. Choice Scarf sets mostly have an emphasis on utility and disruption. The most obvious benefit of using Choice Scarf on Tapu Fini is the immediate speed. This speed on something with Tapu Fini's potent STAB coverage and just barely good enough Special Attack Stat allows it to snipe several fast offensive threats in the meta (Urshifu-R, Landorus, Pheromosa, Dragapult, etc) with an unexpectedly fast Moonblast or Hydro Pump. While this is undeniably helpful in some matchups, in matchups where you don't need the Choice Scarf on Tapu Fini to outspeed a specific threat, it becomes an incredibly potent disruption option with Trick. Almost nothing in the tier wants to be tricked a Choice Scarf, and this can ruin otherwise threatening setup sweepers like Dragon Dance Zygarde. Additionally, Choice Scarf sets can make use of Tapu Fini's deep supportive movepool and run moves like Nature's Madness to get guaranteed, consistent damage on everything or Heal Pulse to increase its team's longevity. Moves like Heal Pulse become especially potent when paired with defensive win conditions like Cosmic Power Metagross, as a Heal Pulse into it can be game ending in a myriad of matchups. Choice Scarf sets, on top of all of the utility Tapu Fini provides a team by merely existing can remove some of the tier's most potent offensive threats, as well as become one of the most disruptive utility pokemon in the tier.
Tapu Fini's worst set is probably Calm Mind. This may sound odd, but coming from someone who has played literally thousands of games with Calm Mind Tapu Fini teams, I find this set to be pretty underwhelming. Starting with the positives, Tapu Fini is easily one of if not the best setup option in the tier. Its defensive profile allows it to switch in on so much and it has a built in status immunity for 5 turns. It can also afford to invest much more in its bulk than any other of the previous sets, making it the most effective at switching in to the offensive pokemon its used so commonly as a check to. Getting into why I think its the worst set, Calm Mind Tapu Fini is incredibly slow. Tapu Fini has a pretty low base Special Attack stat, meaning its team has to spend a ton of resources on generating free setup turns for an unremarkable payoff compared to other common setup sweepers. Calm Mind Tapu Fini frequently needs more than one Calm Mind to even be competitive with other setup users, whereas if you let Zygarde get two Dragon Dances or Genesect get two Shift Gears (especially factoring in Download) or Spectrier get two Nasty Plots, you probably have lost the game on the spot (This isn't considering Intimidate which would cause the physical setup sweepers mentioned to have to setup more turns to be fair but Tapu Fini can just as easily be snarled and require even more setup turns). Calm Mind Tapu Fini teams also typically struggle with Volcanion (especially if it has Haze or Toxic), Naganadel and Whimsicott offense teams. Calm Mind Tapu Fini is also harder to pivot around like you can do with Choiced sets, making it a worse Psychic Spam and Amoonguss check. Looking at it less objectively for a second, I also just think Calm Mind Tapu Fini is boring. I am aware that this is entirely subjective and probably due to the fast that I have played hundreds or thousands of games with it though. This is by no means saying Calm Mind Tapu Fini is bad. Far from it. I actually think, despite being Tapu Fini's worst set, I would rank it pretty high into tier 2 on its own, but I digress. In conclusion, Calm Mind Tapu Fini provides a strong win condition to its team and a bulky switch in to a large variety of attacks in the tier, but at the cost of being worse at pivoting around and resetting terrains.
All of Tapu Fini's sets do have weaknesses. Choice Specs is heavily reliant on speed control and has an arguably mediocre damage output for a Choice Specs pokemon, Choice Scarf does rely a bit on surprise factor and often can't use its utility to the fullest due to needing to check a specific threat on the opponent's team, not being able to Trick because it needs the Choice Scarf for something else, and I've already explained Calm Mind Tapu Fini's weaknesses in depth. While it does have weaknesses, every pokemon does, and the fact that all of Tapu Fini's sets range from tier 1-2 material independently of one another should be indicative of Tapu Fini's greatness.
In terms of tournament usage, it was joint 2nd in Invitationals with a 58% winrate, 3rd in usage in DPL with a 48% winrate and 3rd in SCL with a 69% winrate (nice). Tapu Fini has been in the upper echelon of usage in every recent Doubles OU tournament, consistently ranking above even other tier 1 pokemon. Looking at the data it feels really difficult to deny Tapu Fini its tier 1 status.
4 -> 3
Dracovish is seeing usage mostly because of rain, and Politoed is rain. Dracovish rain is one of the most volatile teams in the meta right now. Dracovish in rain has ludicrous damage output, and Dracovish counters all of rain's traditional checks. Tyranitar can't switch in and just gets OHKOd. Tapu Fini gets OHKOd in Rain and is still threatened by Zapdos/Ferrothorn/Tsareena. Volcanion can't touch Dracovish and watches its friends die. Whimsicott Tailwind isn't directly countered by Dracovish but is covered by Porygon2 anyway. Dracovish doesn't necessarily need Politoed and can be run with Whimsicott instead, Dracovish rain is a big enough part of its success that Politoed deserves to rise with it.
Good bulk but honestly very mediocre Atk stat that gets bailed out by a signature move that would be broken on better Ground-types. Requires CB or a DD just to do an acceptable amount of damage in the tier, and the latter DD set can be very awkward to set up in a meta with so much Fake Out and Intimidate spam existing with Rillaboom and Incineroar being around.
Zygarde is a decent mon but it's not on the same level as rest of Tier 2 imo.
Coaching Zeraora is a good set, but every other set is pretty garbage, and Coaching itself is pretty team specific, and even teams that want Coaching can use Mew instead. Electric-types in general in this meta kinda suck and having one usable set thats niche and team specific at best doesn't seem like tier 3 material to me. I nommed this thing down last slate, and I think most of what I said in that post is still true. The tl;dr is Zeraora is pretty mediocre as an attacker and standard fake out 2 attacks filler sets can feel pretty useless in a lot of board states. Fast Fake Out is nice and Coaching can help solve Zeraora's passivity problem, but Coaching and by extension Zeraora isn't the easiest thing to fit on teams to begin with, and I really don't think Zeraora deserves tier 3 based solely off of the merits of being the fastest Fake Out in the tier + having one niche role that its arguably not even the best at.
Had a fun time playing in SSPL this year, and went into it wanting to build some new stuff just cause it felt like at the end of SS I was just recycling and this was an opportunity to build some fun stuff, so figured I’d post the builds here. Didn’t really test them much, they all were basically just build & play, so pretty much all were just based on what I knew of the meta. I tried to do some new takes on things, and it went pretty well going 3-1. (Me and MADARAAAA took turns playing, cause when you’ve got two stars you gotta let them both shine) Overall we went 6-2 in the dou slot, so I couldn’t have asked for a better teammate.
Week 2 vs Ann: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8doublesou-692781
Team:
This team was built around the great synergy between CB Ttar, Tornadus, and Dracozolt. After that you just gotta round out the rest with checks to different archetypes. In the matchup Tsareena was the goat (always is tbh) and I was able to get the W.
Week 4 vs Akaru: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8doublesou-1877937439
Team:
With all the Fake Out in the tier, I had always had the idea of building around a Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn that’s able to just switch in on resisted physical attacks and do 30% in recoil. Giving it hazards just lets the passive damage add up, and then Diancie can clean up. The team definitely has less protects than I’d like, and as such I really want to go with cm fini, but you gotta have answers to cosmic power stuff, so scarf it is.
In the matchup I didn’t really get to showcase the Ferro much, I forgot that the opposing team is an offensive Zeraora, but was still able to get the win cause Diancie is a beast.
Week 6 vs JRL: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8doublesou-698072
Team:
AV Defiant Thundurus fits so well on psyspam, being good into terrain setters like Rillaboom & Tapu Fini, Dark mons like Incineroar & Ttar, Steel mons like Heatran, Celesteela, & Metagross, and Snarl mons like Mew & Zeraora. It also lets you pivot a lot, which most psyspam teams struggle with, letting you get into good positions.
In the matchup I got outplayed but got pretty lucky. I did feel like I was ahead so I didn’t need to make too many reads, but that’s what getting lucky lets you do.
Semifinals vs JRL: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8doublesou-700152
Team:
I had always wanted to build a double Draco team, but I could never find the right fit for both of them, as it’s hard to fit everything you’d want in speed control, TR checks, etc, but I finally felt like I had the right composition here. T spikes + SR + Sand lets you stack up the passive damage, so that Dracovish and Dracozolt can just pick things off. Debated a lot on the last slot between like some version of Genesect or Celesteela, but went with Celesteela as I felt the team needed the protect more than the pivot that Genesect would provide.
Madaraaaa: Gotta be careful vs Ferrothorn.
Actuarily: Yeah gotta save Celesteela for that.
Narrator: He did not.
Played this one poorly, shoulda never risked my Celesteela when it was my only Ferrothorn check. I was under the impression my opponent’s Dracovish was not 252 speed, as it wants to move first under TR vs certain stuff, but assuming just makes an ass outta you & me. Lost the speed tie & missed, but that’s just the universe balancing out me lucking JRL earlier.
I would love to see a retest of Kartana. For all those who supported the ban back when it was decided should acknowledge that the SS game today is much different than it was then as it has evolved and such through discovery.
i like actually agree a lot and hope people give this a chance after classic concludes, i think in modern ss it would be much less centralizing after the rise of things like naga / whims / steela / modern rain, and i think it gives another tool for offense to put pressure on boring fwg durdle squads most of the tiers detractors always cite as a bad thing
i like actually agree a lot and hope people give this a chance after classic concludes, i think in modern ss it would be much less centralizing after the rise of things like naga / whims / steela / modern rain, and i think it gives another tool for offense to put pressure on boring fwg durdle squads most of the tiers detractors always cite as a bad thing
Except these "durdle" squads are a good thing to have in the tier, I'd really rather the tier not devolve into a bunch of random HOs being incredibly dominant and centralizing again, I quite like being able to use more than just whims HO. SS DOU is currently a pretty balanced tier and isn't even hated by most people, I'd much rather the loud minority that doesn't like SS say SS bad because boring than SS bad because unbalanced. Whenever a survey during SS mentioned Kartana the responses were largely in favour of keeping it banned/people thinking SS is a better tier without it, and I see no reason to even consider letting a mon that warped the metagame a LOT and made HO too strong back into SS.
Tapu Fini:
Timid Specs Fini is a tier 1 set, it pushes a lot of damage while neutralizing many opposing threats (sleep, psyspam, dragons, fighting types, heatran). It's just an extremely effective, consistent pokemon.
Zeraora:
Attacking Zeraora is tier 5, it loses damage trades vs most top mons. Taunt isn't terribly valuable in this meta, it doesn't get uturn and is forced to use uninvested volt switch if it wants to pivot. Coaching Zeraora is tier 2.5, it's the primary support on a top tier comp, but every other set the mon can run is mediocre. I think that averages out to tier 4, since coaching support is probably not the first thing someone thinks of when they see Zeraora on a VR
Dracovish:
Absurd damage output, requires team support but warps the game around itself when provided with that support. Very good on multiple archetypes (rain, sand)
Stakataka:
Trick Room is pretty mid, Stak might be one of the better ways to execute it but it requires a lot of support to make work and the payoff is not really worth the turn spent to set up
Volcarona:
Good matchups on paper into a lot of top mons, omnipresent grassy terrain lets it get set up and break through waters with giga. Certainly a flawed mon but it can get spooky
On the Kartana stuff I'll bring it up but I would really prefer to see a significant amount of discussion on it before its seriously considered.
Pokemon that dominate a large portion of the metagame. They are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon.
Pokemon that are generally strong, but less powerful than those in Tier 2 or Pokemon that require a decent amount of support or a specific team style to function well, but are defining pieces to said archetypes.
This tier contains either Pokemon that have broad applications on a variety of teams, but are simply less effective than those in higher tiers, or are only particularly useful for certain team styles.
Pokemon that, while they have a niche in the metagame, often struggle to find situations where they thrive, either because of the support required or their poor matchups.
Rilla runs this tier and should be ranked 1 alone. Fini/Incin/Mew are stability picks and Genesect will find a way to make progress on literally every team. Honestly debating pushing for tier 2 vish because its the most unfair mon in the tier but ig 3's fine for now. spectrier and naga are both pretty insane guys so im bumping them 'up' as well. tier 4 and 5 are where you get into the more specified pokemon that only represent a few team styles, current tier 5 is pretty bad imo bc we're talking about mons on 1 niche team and that isnt super deserving of being ranked when their metagame matchups are shaky at best.
Incineroar —> T1: With Rillaboom being the only Tier 1 mon, as well as being a Grass type, I feel like Incineroar is the perfect counter to it. Since Rillaboom is, for the most part, a PhyAtk, it can't face Incineroar without the risk of Intimidate (lowering Rillaboom's PhyAtk) and/or being burned (halving PhyAtk damage). Incineroar being able to Fake Out Rillaboom provides an opportunity for its partner to do damage (or even do things like set up hazards), and then it can pivot out with Parting Shot (furthermore lowering Rillaboom's stats), and put it in the position where it has to continually switch into whatever hazards you set. Knock Off is valuable too because it can, potentially, remove things like AV (from bulky Rillabooms), do damage in the process, and then proceed to finish Rillaboom off (while also allowing any SpcAtk [especially another Fire type like Heatran] to capitalize Rillaboom's base defense [which we know is usually not boosted]).
Hippowdon can be used, with something like high horsepower, stealth rocks, slack off, whirlwind. However, the reality is that Tyranitar is just better at this role of setting sand, rocks, & phasing due to having higher special defense (which is then further boosted due to sandstorm), which means Hippowdon gets left off this viability rankings. Tyranitar also obviously can run more offensive sets, giving it more flexibility.
If a sand team really needed an electric immunity, or was stacking too many fighting or fairy weaks, Hippowdon could maybe be a better fit.
Now that dpl is over, i figured id go over the SS DOU metagame and share my opinions on its current state. Nothing has really changed unfortunately, mainly because the tier is mostly solved, but some pokemon have definitely gotten better (and some worse too!) and i think it will be fun to make some noms.
(they werent in the tier maker but Pheromosa is tier 3 and Arctozolt is 5, also not ordered)
1>2
I dont know if thats a hot take, but this pokemon does not belong in tier 1. I wanted to be more harsh and actually nom this to 3 but i think i would get flamed so yeah. There were so many times when building for dpl this year where i thought mew was more of a liability than anything else. Rocks are not exactly the most valuable move atm, they are nice but not necessary on every team. Its setup fodder for spectrier, and if i want a tailwind setter im going to use whimsicott and make sure i dont immediately get bopped by sand, rain or other offense (thanks dynamic speed). Snarl and Wisp are good, but realistically you cant snarl the ghost types and once you use the move on Volcanion and Celesteela youre just a sitting duck assuming you already set rocks and tailwind. Its still a good pokemon that does well in the right matchup, but its also getting more and more exploitable and replaceable in a good number of teams. Arguably tier 3 but 2 is fine for now.
4>3
This should not have dropped the last time it was voted on. If anything, there should have been an argument to a tier raise. Fastest snarl in the meta of special attackers, soft/hard checks a VERY large number of pokemon in the higher tiers, keeps spect/steela/nihilego from snowballing and hits the waters for good damage. Not to mention the last moveslot, which can be anything between knock off, taunt, coaching and twave, with volt switch being considerable but i personally dont recommend it. Best set is obviously bulky and either sitrus or goggles, band is a meme but usable. Tier 3 pokemon for sure.
3>4
Aggresively mid. Its only real place is psyspam where you have ways to delete its most common checks, while heatran provides good support against steels and rilla. Other than that, its not splashable enough and id rather use volcanion than autolosing to the dominant waters and grounds of the tier. Deserves a drop.
3>4
Again, rocks are not the most needed and are good on pokemon that dont need to check a lot of stuff (like Tyranitar, for example). So if im using metagross, i would rather if it fuctioned as an actual steel type that can take powerful hits and strike back just as hard, so AV is the best set without a doubt, i dont think this should be used as a stealth rock bot. cpower set is also fine, just not as effective as other setup pokemon in the tier as it takes too much time to be threatning for my liking. Not to mention how other steel types are just better and check pretty much the some things but with more splashabilty and more utility (genes pivoting, steela ground immunity and snowball potential)
2>3
Band is the best set by far, and unfortunately im not a fan of the dd set. The support it takes to actually work is not worth the effort, between intimidate shuffling and its predictability, its very easy to position yourself in a position where this thing doesnt sweep, especially cause if you actually dont want incineroar to nullify your setup progress, you need sub, and even then, pshot goes through sub. 2 turns to effectively start attacking just doesnt seem worth. Band is still good, i like the damage it gets off without any need of setup.
3>4
AV set with Icicle Spear, Fusion Bolt/ Freeze Dry and either Dtail/Earth Power/Flash Cannon is a good set, but even then i dont think it fits the tier 3 category. The mere existence of incineroar makes the DD set not worth using honestly, and scarf is a set that can surprise but it doesnt really scare anything that already wants to switch out vs it with any other set.
2>3
The meta doesnt favour this pokemon, too much bulky urshifu, too much steela, and tr is pretty mediocre even though diancie itself is the only real way to use it. Still a good pokemon that can become unkillable if played right, but the metagame is much more hostile to it than ever imo.
3>4
This is only really good on rain and people are starting to pick up how to play and prep against vish rain i feel. Still a good pokemon but never should have been tier 3.
Some quick noms:
3>4: not as useful, phys def rocky helmet is a good set though
4>5: i dont rate these pokemon
4>5: outclassed by vish rain
5> UR: never use these pokemon they are terrible.
UR>5: the existence of electric hail probably grants them a spot in the vr, maybe im just a fan of that team but they perform well there.
UR>5: should be explored more with the 2 ghost types being this good, but needs a lot of support. Mostly a counterpick.
Most of those are drops i just realized, but mostly because the meta is starting to favour hyper offense again, wether it be through waether or prankster tailwind, out offensing your opp is the most viable strategy so it favours Pokemon that can do big damage right off the bat.
If you've come this far, i hope you enjoyed reading and this post can spark discussion among SS DOU enjoyers like me
I'd like to comment a few things on Toxigen's post, but mainly expand on his comments for Diancie. I also agree with the nominations of Mew, Zeraora, Heatran, Zygarde and Ferrothorn.
I've had a lot of faith on Diancie on SS for a long time, but it's true that it fell a lot mainly since bulky Urshifu-R and Gene became more common. While Diancie was able to break through some of its checks before, namely Rilla, Fini, Lando, Volcanion, Amoonguss and Zygarde, with little support, breaking through shifu and gene is a much harder task as both threaten a 1hko and are bulky enough to live diancie and its partner's hits. One core that was really common on Diancie teams was Rillaboom + Diancie, with rilla being able to not only provide fake out, so TR was easier to setup, but also providing a good type synergy, dealing with shifu, fini, lando and zygarde. But this was very vunerable to steel-types, such as gene, steela and metagross, and while volcanion could help with these, the positioning was much harder to play and it could bring to potential weaknesses, mainly Urshifu-R, but also in actually setting up TR, since diancie+volc outside of TR are pretty mediocre and weak to a lot of mons.
As you can see Diancie suffers a lot from the fact that so many of its checks are top mons in the tier, but it can still cause a lot of trouble. Diamond Storm is a really strong and spammable move and there aren't many resists of it in ss, and under tr diancie can tear through teams and even through its checks, Rillaboom, for example, is not a solid diancie check, mainly the ones without wood hammer, activating potential weakness policy is horrible and there are a lot of rilla checks that fit in diancie teams.
4->3 (This is a nom btw) One partner that I think fits really well with Diancie is Tsareena and while there are some downsides to using tsar instead of rilla I think it's worth it a lot of times. Firstly, you can block priorities and while this may not seem that relevant considering I just said that diancie beats rilla, it's incredibly good vs another grass-type: Whimscott. One thing that you need to ensure in your games, if you're using Diancie, is that you're able to setup your tr and whims can avoid that with Encore. If you're able to keep TR up for long enough most of the ho teams will be completely destroyed. Tsareena also deals with the same mons that rilla beats, but you're now able to avoid fake outs that some teams use to deal with TR. Tsar also has HJK that is especially good vs gene, but it's important to note that bulky gene can live HJK+Diamond Storm, another reason for the fall of Diancie.
- Replay
This is one of the teams that I used on dpl. Diancie is not exactly the pokemon that you want in a tw-like team, but I think it works well here. The team is packed with Diancie checks, rilla, lando, fini, gene, all have issues doing something vs this team and in a lot of games Diancie can also just attack instead of using TR. It's important to note that a issue that appears when using Diancie+Tsar is that you lose fake out, so incin or fake out mew is kinda necessary.
The meta doesnt favour this pokemon, too much bulky urshifu, too much steela, and tr is pretty mediocre even though diancie itself is the only real way to use it.
This is another thing that I wanted to say and I half agree with this. Porygon2, in my view, is not a TR pokemon, but more of a pokemon that can setup TR if needed. These 3 teams show what I mean.
You can clearly see that these teams are not TR-based teams, but they do have a TR mode in case the opponent's team is too much "speed control reliant". What I mean is basically that these teams might have some issue vs weather teams or whims HO, so p2 can threaten to regain speed control.
But there are other ways of using TR, you can go fullroom with something like indeedee/hatterene/torkoal or (the good and viable way) use Stakataka! Staka also suffers from bulky Urshifu-R, but it's extremely powerful and gyro ball does a lot to everything (It can 2hko shifu if you're using Helping Hand Blastoise!). Incin also annoys Staka, but you can literally just Stone Edge it. Staka+Blastoise is a nice combo too that I used last dpl and you see the team here.
Overall, I think Diancie dropped a lot since like a year ago, but I still think there's a lot it can do and I hope in future tours, that feature SS DOU, more new teams featuring Diancie are created and used.
Arctozolt
Registeel
Terrakion
Venusaur
(hence I have no blame for this loss and the bad matchup).
UR>5: should be explored more with the 2 ghost types being this good, but needs a lot of support. Mostly a counterpick.