Metagame [Spoilers] Monotype Generation 9 Pre-Release Discussion

[Mada]

I haven't had many time the lasts weeks and I will for sure make more posts in the next days but here is what i saw by analyzing the leaks today:

-This meta can actually be really funny, with some strong mons but also many new mons that are mediocre but can do well seen that also the rest of the mons will be mediocre. I also haven't seen complete movepools so i am not sure on how strong some mons can be (If anyone has a reliable link to find them i would be happy to take a look at those :3)

Those are some good types i think we will get by getting a quick look at the leaks: Dark, Ghost, Normal, Flying, Psychic.

-Dark:
Meowscarada: This mon can be very interesting, Protean with 123 Spe and 110 Atk. Protean got nerfed and i don't know his movepool but i assume he will get a large types of moves due Protean, so I think he can surely be interesting and become a nice cleaner.

Lokix: 102 Atk + 92 Spe with Tinted Lens, this mon doesn't look broken but it can surely be strong. Tinted Lens combined to a STAB like Megahorn and with a Choice Scarf can be strong, altho 102 Atk isn't much so again we could have a nice cleaner.

Bombirdier: His ability I assume will give him a Rock STAB ? Not sure which Attacks he can have, but this could be interesting as answer for Bug and Flying types altho the stats are meh.

Mabostiff: It looks kinda meh, ability can be interesting but i don't think he will be good at all.

Ting-Lu, Chien-Pau, Wo-Chien, Chi-Yu: All interesting mons with strong abilities. Good walls and attackers that can help against types such as Ground and Grass/Steel, but again i would need the movepools to get a better idea.

Kingambit: This thing will get banned I assume ? 50 Speed is low but the ability is just too broken. Not sure if we have any TR or Webs setter, but it can for sure be a big thread and we will have to see. BST aren't too high and it has no access to Knock Off but i am sure this thing at +2/+3 Attack can OHKO almost the whole tier.

Tyranitar, Hydreigon, Zarude, Honchkrow, Mandi, Gmolt, Guzzlord, Cacturne, Krooko, Greninja, Sableye, Grimmsnarl: I missed a couple of mons that I don't think it's worth mentioning, We have overall really good mons and even options between Balance and HO. Many think HO will dominate this meta and they have a good point, but we can probably also remake some good cores with Sableye+Mandi and eventually immunities such as Cacturne.

Zarude gets SD and Protean got nerfed but we should still be able to break types with our setup sweepers.
Grimmsnarl got Parting Shot which is really strong but maybe won't be used too much due 4mss altho it can be really strong. Krooko lost its stabs but got Gunk Shot which can be a funny coverage.
We got Alolan Muk back which will help a lot against Fairy and we can eventually form funny cores with Hydreigon and Sableye.


I will talk about the other types the next days and I hope i made some different points than the ones already in the thread as i got a quick look at those without reading them too deeply due the lacking of time.

 

[Aschmaros]

Alolatails and Darm are the big losses, everything else has a replacement. Despite the snow buff, until we get alolatails back I don't think snow is going to be the primary mode for a lot of effective ice teams. This reminds me a lot of gen 6 ice where you ran mons like frosslass and avalugg to just have a chance to check certain matchups and not get auto swept by certain mons. I don't think baxcalibur will be particularly effective barring it being a pivot/helping out with some neutral matchups. The biggest addition I'm excited to play with is iron bundle. Could maybe see the return of rain/duel weather ice, similar to how a few people ran lapras in gen 6.

The best thing to happen to ice this gen might be Steel's defensive core getting gutted. Fighting could take its spot as the biggest threat especially when terrakion gets added. The lack of Ice/Psychic will hurt, and could lead to some Articuno teams(another mon that pairs well with rain or snow).

Also keep an eye out for Cetitan on some teams. It is a little redundant with Baxcalibur but having 3 good abilities and very solid speed for slush rush is super interesting. Also beartic could definitely get some runway before scarf terakion gets added back in.

TLDR: Ice, especially if Chien-Pao gets banned, could be at its worst place since gen 6. The big swing factors will be iron bundle and Baxcalibur and how viable they turn out to be.

It's quite nostalgic to see Ice Mono is basically back to Generation 6, and I can't say I both enjoy and hate this feeling . I think Ice's best chance is still running a Snow team because I think having using Abomasnow to have access to Snow Warning, and Aurora Veil is simply too good to pass up. Being able to set up a 8 turn Aurora veil and 4 turns of increased Physical Bulk for essentially free, gives you too much advantage for what you are losing (A pokemon slot, but with our limited Pokemon, is this really that bad?).

I would love to have some more things to say in regards to the new Ice Pokemon, but i don't think I can add much commentary (And I kinda suck at writing my thoughts on Pokemon I can't physically test yet) besides that I think all of them have good potential to be strong pokemon, and that we Ice mono players better enjoy Chien-Pao whilst we have it lmao.

Ice mono will definitely struggle, but I don't think it will be the worse type...maybe. And as a sidenote, I really hope that in the DLC, Paradox Suicune is Water/Ice (Something inside me says Water/Fairy though..)

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Kingambit: This thing will get banned I assume ? 50 Speed is low but the ability is just too broken. Not sure if we have any TR or Webs setter, but it can for sure be a big thread and we will have to see. BST aren't too high and it has no access to Knock Off but i am sure this thing at +2/+3 Attack can OHKO almost the whole tier.

No Webs, but Klefki and Bronzong for Trick Room. Definitely won't be the first thing banned, but I can see it down the line. When it's the last mon it gets a 1.6x attack boost which is crazy sweeping potential, but also I've played Bisharps when using Sticky Web, and especially early meta I fully expect to lean Bulky Offense which shouldn't have the most trouble with Kingsgambit at least IMO.

Meowscara gets Play Rough, and the protean nerf doesn't really affect Choice Sets, so that should become a staple scarf/band for it's ability to spam stab Play Rough.
You also missed the Paradox mons for your discussion. Iron Jugulis, Roaring Moon, and Brute Bonnet.
Now the only reason to use Brute Bonnet, especially when you have 2 extremely viable Dark/Grass mons already (Meoscara and Zarude), would be Spore. Stat wise it feels like a slower Zarude that's slightly bulkier, but between lacking setup moves, or a threatening speed tier, feels like a rough fit.
Roaring Moon is definitely getting banned, Dragon Dance, Booster Energy for the attack boost with acrobatics just sweeps Fighting, and with Screen + Parting shot Grimmsnarl it won't be that difficult to get the boost either.

-1 252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roaring Moon through Light Screen: 290-344 (82.6 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

For reference, after a parting shot a specs Iron Valiant can't KO Roaring Moon with it's 4X effective STAB.

Lastly Iron Jugulis may be the new Dark/Flying, 122 Special A with 108 Speed alone with Hurricane (or Air Slash if you want Acc.) Either way I can see this with a specs as a wallbreaker similar to Specs Zapdos for Flying/Elec. It has fire and ground coverage in Heat Wave and Earth Power, honestly this simply replaces Hydreigon on the team, prevents the redundancy of 2 Dragon/Darks while offering more useful Flying Stab and a better speed tier.

Also I'll just reiterate, Ting-Lu, Chien-Pau, Wo-Chien, Chi-Yu are all going to be a pain to deal with. Thankfully the bulkier mons aren't the ones that get recover, but still Ting Lu has spikes/taunt/ruination/stealth rock/whirlwind and the insane bulk to go with it. Chien Pao I definitely can going between tons of Ice/Dark stab, Sacred Sword, Recover, and Swords Dance, psychic fangs if you want, and 2 options for priority. Wo Chien won't be banned but is still a solid mon overall, just too many grass/darks really, solid bulk with leech seed/ruination/knock off/taunt and some other things. And lastly Chi Yu with some amazing wallbreaking/stallbreaking options, but really I don't see being threatening enough - especially in an overly offensive meta - to be banned.

 

[TheWyvernKing]

It's quite nostalgic to see Ice Mono is basically back to Generation 6, and I can't say I both enjoy and hate this feeling . I think Ice's best chance is still running a Snow team because I think having using Abomasnow to have access to Snow Warning, and Aurora Veil is simply too good to pass up. Being able to set up a 8 turn Aurora veil and 4 turns of increased Physical Bulk for essentially free, gives you too much advantage for what you are losing (A pokemon slot, but with our limited Pokemon, is this really that bad?).

My favorite Gen 6 Ice team is a super HO quad choice one, and honestly the options we have kinda make me think something similar might be best. Snow Warning and Aurora Veil sound nice on paper, but Abomasnow is such a momentum drain with such limiting bulk that I don't see it as worth it. Kinda feels like a mon that helps with matchups Ice already wins against.

 

[Rebelpyroflame]

Hello, long time mono poison player, thought I'd throw my own thoughts into the mix.

Not going to lie, many of the changes hit poison hard. Recovery nerf was probably needed, but it hurts the traditional stall tactics, and losing a few stables of the teams, particularly all our ground immune members, is going to be harder to get over. But some of the new members offer hope for us. Allot of it is going to wait and see how the new format changes will play out and what gets banned from everything.

Lets start with the newer ones

clodsire - awwww, look at the little poison boy, I wanna squish his fat cheeks NO *slap* focus. In all seriousness, getting a new poison ground is good, water absorb makes him great. I know its tradition to make two variations opposite focus, and special attacks have been the greater focus of the game a while. Poison has allot of great special walls already, being earthquake weak doesn't help either. Losing scald doesn't help, but he's got some really good moves, and poison getting easier access to spikes and stealth rock is really nice. Can't wait to see how he plays

glimmora - obligatory special sweeper, he actually could make a really good replacement for nidoking. I'm worried he doesn't have the bulk or speed he needs, but hopefully choice scarf will fix that. Its hard to say what ability will be used, they're both really good. Personally, I think having corrosive will be really good, he can sweep steel teams with a stab move, and even come out to toxic the bigger threats. Looking forward to seeing him go

revavroom - he's an interesting case. I've been wanting a good defensive physical attacker and he got the attack, ability and typing for it. I worry his stats defensively might be a bit low with many of the new threats, especially the new ground moves, but shift gear could turn him into a monster. I just worry if he's hit the wrong format, if all the ho focus might do away with setup sweepers. He's got the potential to really be something sweet though

grafaiai - going to be honest, I wasn't impressed at first. A poor combination of typing that didn't bring anything except ghost immunity, and I thought he'd have poor stats and movepool to support him. Then I saw prankster. I'm actually really excited now. He's got the potential to be a poison typed sableye. Taunt stops setups, encore traps in moves, parting shot lowers starts and sets up big brain plays, toxic with prankster is always good. Alternatively, substitue, boost attack/special then batton pass to the sweeper. I went from hating to loving this salad finger graffiti monkey, and I can't wait to see what imaginative plays focus around him

iron-moth - the big boy. Volcarona has always been a big threat in any meta, now he's on the side of poison. Same great typing as slazzle but better stats, enough bulk to take a few hits. Give him choice specs and sweep. Wait for elec to throw down elec field and sweep harder. The only question is if he gets banned first, along with the other paradox mon

Probably missed tons of points, and I've got some thoughts on ones we're keeping as well. Feel free to jump on and add/correct me

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Hello, long time mono poison player, thought I'd throw my own thoughts into the mix.

Not going to lie, many of the changes hit poison hard. Recovery nerf was probably needed, but it hurts the traditional stall tactics, and losing a few stables of the teams, particularly all our ground immune members, is going to be harder to get over. But some of the new members offer hope for us. Allot of it is going to wait and see how the new format changes will play out and what gets banned from everything.

Lets start with the newer ones

clodsire - awwww, look at the little poison boy, I wanna squish his fat cheeks NO *slap* focus. In all seriousness, getting a new poison ground is good, water absorb makes him great. I know its tradition to make two variations opposite focus, and special attacks have been the greater focus of the game a while. Poison has allot of great special walls already, being earthquake weak doesn't help either. Losing scald doesn't help, but he's got some really good moves, and poison getting easier access to spikes and stealth rock is really nice. Can't wait to see how he plays

glimmora - obligatory special sweeper, he actually could make a really good replacement for nidoking. I'm worried he doesn't have the bulk or speed he needs, but hopefully choice scarf will fix that. Its hard to say what ability will be used, they're both really good. Personally, I think having corrosive will be really good, he can sweep steel teams with a stab move, and even come out to toxic the bigger threats. Looking forward to seeing him go

revavroom - he's an interesting case. I've been wanting a good defensive physical attacker and he got the attack, ability and typing for it. I worry his stats defensively might be a bit low with many of the new threats, especially the new ground moves, but shift gear could turn him into a monster. I just worry if he's hit the wrong format, if all the ho focus might do away with setup sweepers. He's got the potential to really be something sweet though

grafaiai - going to be honest, I wasn't impressed at first. A poor combination of typing that didn't bring anything except ghost immunity, and I thought he'd have poor stats and movepool to support him. Then I saw prankster. I'm actually really excited now. He's got the potential to be a poison typed sableye. Taunt stops setups, encore traps in moves, parting shot lowers starts and sets up big brain plays, toxic with prankster is always good. Alternatively, substitue, boost attack/special then batton pass to the sweeper. I went from hating to loving this salad finger graffiti monkey, and I can't wait to see what imaginative plays focus around him

iron-moth - the big boy. Volcarona has always been a big threat in any meta, now he's on the side of poison. Same great typing as slazzle but better stats, enough bulk to take a few hits. Give him choice specs and sweep. Wait for elec to throw down elec field and sweep harder. The only question is if he gets banned first, along with the other paradox mon

Probably missed tons of points, and I've got some thoughts on ones we're keeping as well. Feel free to jump on and add/correct me

Didn't have a whole lot off issue with your points, but I still had some thoughts.

Iron Moth defs isn't getting banned, no Quiver Dance and doesn't have the movepool, this is my opinion at least. The elec terrain boost would go to it's special attack, and it's not gen 6 anymore, a 110 speed tier is good but most types are still able to outspeed it. The only type I really see lacking enough counterplay for the moth is Grass, resulting from the loss of cradily, but even then that's not so much the moth being too dangerous as much as Grass losing it's defensive core. Most Paradox mons I don't think are getting the ban, it's mostly Iron Valiant, Flutter Mane, and Roaring Moon I'd see getting the hammer. Maybe Iron Bundle if it's too oppressive on it's good matchups.

Main difference between Grafaifai and Sableye is the lack of recover/will o/inferior typing, not to mention sableye has screens now. Maybe it'll be better than I thought but it feels more like a poison/normal Liepard than Sableye.

Revavroom biggest flaw is its movepool if anything, nothing that hits steel except for bulldoze, a reliance on poison/steel stab for damage means I don't think it really helps outside of matchups poison already wins in.

Glimmora is a cool mon but you seem to be mistaken on what Corrosion does. It doesn't allow poison hits to do damage to steel, merely it allows moves such as Toxic to poison steel/poison types. Also idk if I'd call it a replacement for Nido, which can singlehandedly break steel cores, flying cores, and tailor itself for matchups with it's special coverage. That being said Glimmora will still be pretty solid, I'd imagine something like Earth Power/Energy Ball/Power Gem/Toxic with corrosion, it would still be walled by special defensive flying/steels as well as Orthoworm, but with Toxic it would at least be able to cripple them on the switchin. Either way it's a mon that I see a decent amount of potential in.

Clodsire I see more as a beneficial mon for Ground Monos, as it's the only mon they have that really avoids the 2HKO/OHKO from Electrode-Hisui Specs Chloroblast. All the while helping with the fairy mu, is water immune, and neutral to poison. Otherwise though, I think Neko said it best for its issue with being used on poison - it's way too passive. Encore and Yawn help, but the lack of scald and decrease in offense really makes it bait for taunt setup sweepers.

Also you forgot about Sneasler, which might be bigger than Iron Moth. Close Combat/Fire Punch help with steel, tons of moves super effective on psychic helps a bunch in that matchup, with options such as shadow claw/x scissor/u turn to help in the poison v. psy. Though low base power, trailblaze offers some merit in the ground/water matchups. Swords Dance offers immediate power can be useful, with maybe some potential in an unburden set.

 

[mushamu]

They nerfed Toxapex nooooo

 

[Aschmaros]

Didn't have a whole lot off issue with your points, but I still had some thoughts.

Iron Moth defs isn't getting banned, no Quiver Dance and doesn't have the movepool, this is my opinion at least. The elec terrain boost would go to it's special attack, and it's not gen 6 anymore, a 110 speed tier is good but most types are still able to outspeed it. The only type I really see lacking enough counterplay for the moth is Grass, resulting from the loss of cradily, but even then that's not so much the moth being too dangerous as much as Grass losing it's defensive core. Most Paradox mons I don't think are getting the ban, it's mostly Iron Valiant, Flutter Mane, and Roaring Moon I'd see getting the hammer. Maybe Iron Bundle if it's too oppressive on it's good matchups.

Main difference between Grafaifai and Sableye is the lack of recover/will o/inferior typing, not to mention sableye has screens now. Maybe it'll be better than I thought but it feels more like a poison/normal Liepard than Sableye.

Revavroom biggest flaw is its movepool if anything, nothing that hits steel except for bulldoze, a reliance on poison/steel stab for damage means I don't think it really helps outside of matchups poison already wins in.

Glimmora is a cool mon but you seem to be mistaken on what Corrosion does. It doesn't allow poison hits to do damage to steel, merely it allows moves such as Toxic to poison steel/poison types. Also idk if I'd call it a replacement for Nido, which can singlehandedly break steel cores, flying cores, and tailor itself for matchups with it's special coverage. That being said Glimmora will still be pretty solid, I'd imagine something like Earth Power/Energy Ball/Power Gem/Toxic with corrosion, it would still be walled by special defensive flying/steels as well as Orthoworm, but with Toxic it would at least be able to cripple them on the switchin. Either way it's a mon that I see a decent amount of potential in.

Clodsire I see more as a beneficial mon for Ground Monos, as it's the only mon they have that really avoids the 2HKO/OHKO from Electrode-Hisui Specs Chloroblast. All the while helping with the fairy mu, is water immune, and neutral to poison. Otherwise though, I think Neko said it best for its issue with being used on poison - it's way too passive. Encore and Yawn help, but the lack of scald and decrease in offense really makes it bait for taunt setup sweepers.

Also you forgot about Sneasler, which might be bigger than Iron Moth. Close Combat/Fire Punch help with steel, tons of moves super effective on psychic helps a bunch in that matchup, with options such as shadow claw/x scissor/u turn to help in the poison v. psy. Though low base power, trailblaze offers some merit in the ground/water matchups. Swords Dance offers immediate power can be useful, with maybe some potential in an unburden set.

Hm, I don't think Iron Bundle will be banned to be honest, because the matchups that Iron Bundle makes easier for Ice and Water is...matchups they already had good probability to win against if it wasn't there. It doesn't have much moves that can capitalize on its high Sp.Atk and speed. Ice Beam/Freeze Dry/Hydro Pump/??? is not that much coverage to where I don't think it will be a problem for types besides say Flying, Ground, Dragon, etc. (Matchups Ice and Water are not struggling in. You can argue Ice vs Fire gets changed up alot because of Iron Bundle though) and wouldn't this be classified as a "Monotype Moment"? Like Ice crumbling before any steel type Scizor.

 

[sasha]

wanted to comment since the game comes out (in the us) tonight, i think dark has really cool options now with meowscarada just being better zarude with protean, and the legendary quartet of dark types if not broken will serve dark quite well. the new fairy steel mon is really interesting with a 160 BP move with very little drawback and im interested to see if that mon is good. the paradox forms all seem very good since theyve got pretty insane stat buffs from their regular mon counterparts, so im wondering if any will be qb'd or suspected immediately. with protean + recovery/roost being nerfed and scald being limited to just volcanion and a new weaker scald being introduced, mushamu cant win ribbon spamming pex gren...ruh roh, gen seems very hazard stack-y though which is cool

 

[Rebelpyroflame]

Thanks for the reply. Cha right, I never used slazzle and I misunderstood its ability.

I just heard about its special move "mortal spin", its a poison rapid spin, no speed boost and it poisons the opponant. Considering the lack of defog and poisons lack of other rapid spin, is this going to be mandatory?

I admit I don't know that much about the PLA pokemon. Thanks for the insight.

Here's some other thoughts:

Poison needs a good dark type. Skuntank just doesn't have anything to stand out. The two main standouts are hisuian qwilfish line and possibly aloan muk. Overqwil is a strong physical hitter, good defence, intimate and can set spikes. He has gotten a buff with better moves, but honestly he feels more like general rain team support with swift swim. There is a possibility with qwilfish though, similar moves and stats, intimidate and eviolite, so he actually does stand out more. The last one is aloan muk, he has been confirm, maybe, I have seen articles with his changes so maybe? The point is, according to said sources, he's getting drain punch. He was a monster before, now he's got assault vest healing.

Poison vs psychic I never had too much trouble with personally. Galar slowking was a special tank, and with a good dark type it wasn't that bad.

We have the regeneration trio (slowking, ammoongus and toxapex), but it's still hard to feel out what would fill the team out? Is every team going to be HO? What is the future of poison? Any thoughts?

 

[TheWyvernKing]

Hm, I don't think Iron Bundle will be banned to be honest, because the matchups that Iron Bundle makes easier for Ice and Water is...matchups they already had good probability to win against if it wasn't there. It doesn't have much moves that can capitalize on its high Sp.Atk and speed. Ice Beam/Freeze Dry/Hydro Pump/??? is not that much coverage to where I don't think it will be a problem for types besides say Flying, Ground, Dragon, etc. (Matchups Ice and Water are not struggling in. You can argue Ice vs Fire gets changed up alot because of Iron Bundle though) and wouldn't this be classified as a "Monotype Moment"? Like Ice crumbling before any steel type Scizor.

As I said, if it's too oppressive in it's good matchups. 1 Matchup that does turn though is the Water vs. Grass
With no ferro Iron Bundle ends up able to 2hko/OHKO everything grass has by just spamming Ice beam. No grassy glide rilla means they'd need to rely on a scarf, most likely meowscara, which toxapex even with it's nerf counters. Wouldn't really be surprised if water ends up with a winning mu vs. grass as a result of the two together.
Also there are monotype moments, but Iron Bundle in the ground mu will be ROUGH.
Ground, similar to grass, would most likely rely on a scarf to get rid of it. Scarf Sandy Shocks or Great Tusks in this case. I don't think any other scarfed ground would be able to ohko considering the 114 defense, and between Hydro/Ice Beam/Freeze dry there's nothing that can do any counterplay defensively.
You brought up Fire, but that doesn't have the worst to deal with it, between scarf Cinderace and volcanion there's plenty of options to still win, though Ice does have some other options to help turn it in it's favor between Cloyster/Draxcalibur.
Dragon similarly wouldn't have the worst time. Draxcalibur lives it, there are priority options, scarf options, and Hoodra. It'll be a threat, but more of a lategame one that needs team support to break through.
Flying is definitely in for it defensively, honestly specs Iron Bundle might be the option on water to just spam Ice Beam in the Flying/Grass/Dragon MUs, as specs Delibird 2hkos HDB max special D Moltres with a roll on Ice Beam.

I was moreso saying it's something I have my eye on, but especially with how aggressive this meta is looking to be I'm doubting it'll get the ban. Ground may just need to cope and struggle I suppose with worse than before water/ice mus, and grass in general is looking F tier. No cradily and no ferro is going to be very rough for what has been a very bulky type in the past. Everything else seems playable to me except for grass tbh.