Metagame [SPOILERS] Generation 9 National Dex Discussion

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Solaros & Lunaris

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Hey everyone!

Now that we have a decent amount of reliable information about the new and returning Pokemons in Scarlet & Violet with their stats/abilities/moves, it's time to open a first discussion thread about NatDex OU. This thread is meant to discuss about all this from a competitive and OU perspective. Keep in mind that there's still some information (like details on new moves, full movepool, some mechanics details) we don't have and that this thread is mainly about theorizing what will be good in SV OU based on what we know yet. This also applies to a few interactions with NatDex mechanics, which we will flesh out as more info is found. Thus, don't forget that we will need to see everything in practice to really judge all the news brought by Scarler & Violet. Also, please stay respectful with each other, even in case of a disagreement.

You'll find just below a bunch of links/screens with most of the competitive relevant information we have as of now.

Wyrdeer-0 - 103/105/72/105/75/65 (Total: 525) - Normal/Psychic - Intimidate/Frisk/Sap Sipper
Kleavor-0 - 70/130/95/45/75/85 (Total: 500) - Bug/Rock - Swarm/Sheer Force/Sharpness
Ursaluna-0 - 130/140/105/45/80/50 (Total: 550) - Ground/Normal - Guts/Bulletproof/Unnerve
Basculegion-0 - 120/112/65/80/75/78 (Total: 530) - Water/Ghost - Swift Swim/Adaptability/Mold Breaker
Basculegion-1 - 120/92/65/100/75/78 (Total: 530) - Water/Ghost - Swift Swim/Adaptability/Mold Breaker
Sneasler-0 - 80/130/60/40/80/120 (Total: 510) - Fighting/Poison - Pressure/Unburden/Poison Touch
Overqwil-0 - 85/115/95/65/65/85 (Total: 510) - Dark/Poison - Poison Point/Swift Swim/Intimidate
Enamorus-0 - 74/115/70/135/80/106 (Total: 580) - Fairy/Flying - Cute Charm/Cute Charm/Contrary
Enamorus-1 - 74/115/110/135/100/46 (Total: 580) - Fairy/Flying - Overcoat/Overcoat/Overcoat
Sprigatito-0 - 40/61/54/45/45/65 (Total: 310) - Grass/Grass - Overgrow/Overgrow/Protean
Floragato-0 - 61/80/63/60/63/83 (Total: 410) - Grass/Grass - Overgrow/Overgrow/Protean
Meowscarada-0 - 76/110/70/81/70/123 (Total: 530) - Grass/Dark - Overgrow/Overgrow/Protean
Fuecoco-0 - 67/45/59/63/40/36 (Total: 310) - Fire/Fire - Blaze/Blaze/Unaware
Crocalor-0 - 81/55/78/90/58/49 (Total: 411) - Fire/Fire - Blaze/Blaze/Unaware
Skeledirge-0 - 104/75/100/110/75/66 (Total: 530) - Fire/Ghost - Blaze/Blaze/Unaware
Quaxly-0 - 55/65/45/50/45/50 (Total: 310) - Water/Water - Torrent/Torrent/Moxie
Quaxwell-0 - 70/85/65/65/60/65 (Total: 410) - Water/Water - Torrent/Torrent/Moxie
Quaquaval-0 - 85/120/80/85/75/85 (Total: 530) - Water/Fighting - Torrent/Torrent/Moxie
Lechonk-0 - 54/45/40/35/45/35 (Total: 254) - Normal/Normal - Aroma Veil/Gluttony/Thick Fat
Oinkologne-0 - 110/100/75/59/80/65 (Total: 489) - Normal/Normal - Lingering Aroma/Gluttony/Thick Fat
Oinkologne-1 - 115/90/70/59/90/65 (Total: 489) - Normal/Normal - Aroma Veil/Gluttony/Thick Fat
Dudunsparce-0 - 125/100/80/85/75/55 (Total: 520) - Normal/Normal - Serene Grace/Run Away/Rattled
Dudunsparce-1 - 125/100/80/85/75/55 (Total: 520) - Normal/Normal - Serene Grace/Run Away/Rattled
Tarountula-0 - 35/41/45/29/40/20 (Total: 210) - Bug/Bug - Insomnia/Insomnia/Stakeout
Spidops-0 - 60/79/92/52/86/35 (Total: 404) - Bug/Bug - Insomnia/Insomnia/Stakeout
Nymble-0 - 33/46/40/21/25/45 (Total: 210) - Bug/Bug - Swarm/Swarm/Tinted Lens
Lokix-0 - 71/102/78/52/55/92 (Total: 450) - Bug/Dark - Swarm/Swarm/Tinted Lens
Rellor-0 - 41/50/60/31/58/30 (Total: 270) - Bug/Bug - Compound Eyes/Compound Eyes/Shed Skin
Rabsca-0 - 75/50/85/115/100/45 (Total: 470) - Bug/Psychic - Synchronize/Synchronize/Telepathy
Greavard-0 - 50/61/60/30/55/34 (Total: 290) - Ghost/Ghost - Pickup/Pickup/Fluffy
Houndstone-0 - 72/101/100/50/97/68 (Total: 488) - Ghost/Ghost - Sand Rush/Sand Rush/Fluffy
Flittle-0 - 30/35/30/55/30/75 (Total: 255) - Psychic/Psychic - Anticipation/Frisk/Speed Boost
Espathra-0 - 95/60/60/101/60/105 (Total: 481) - Psychic/Psychic - Opportunist/Frisk/Speed Boost
Farigiraf-0 - 120/90/70/110/70/60 (Total: 520) - Normal/Psychic - Cud Chew/Armor Tail/Sap Sipper
Wiglett-0 - 10/55/25/35/25/95 (Total: 245) - Water/Water - Gooey/Rattled/Sand Veil
Wugtrio-0 - 35/100/50/50/70/120 (Total: 425) - Water/Water - Gooey/Rattled/Sand Veil
Dondozo-0 - 150/100/115/65/65/35 (Total: 530) - Water/Water - Unaware/Oblivious/Water Veil
Veluza-0 - 90/102/73/78/65/70 (Total: 478) - Water/Psychic - Mold Breaker/Mold Breaker/Sharpness
Finizen-0 - 70/45/40/45/40/75 (Total: 315) - Water/Water - Water Veil/Water Veil/Water Veil
Palafin-0 - 100/70/72/53/62/100 (Total: 457) - Water/Water - Zero to Hero/Zero to Hero/Zero to Hero
Palafin-1 - 100/160/97/106/87/100 (Total: 650) - Water/Water - Zero to Hero/Zero to Hero/Zero to Hero
Smoliv-0 - 41/35/45/58/51/30 (Total: 260) - Grass/Normal - Early Bird/Early Bird/Harvest
Dolliv-0 - 52/53/60/78/78/33 (Total: 354) - Grass/Normal - Early Bird/Early Bird/Harvest
Arboliva-0 - 78/69/90/125/109/39 (Total: 510) - Grass/Normal - Seed Sower/Seed Sower/Harvest
Capsakid-0 - 50/62/40/62/40/50 (Total: 304) - Grass/Grass - Chlorophyll/Insomnia/Klutz
Scovillain-0 - 65/108/65/108/65/75 (Total: 486) - Grass/Fire - Chlorophyll/Insomnia/Moody
Tadbulb-0 - 61/31/41/59/35/45 (Total: 272) - Electric/Electric - Own Tempo/Static/Damp
Bellibolt-0 - 109/64/91/103/83/45 (Total: 495) - Electric/Electric - Electromorphosis/Static/Damp
Varoom-0 - 45/70/63/30/45/47 (Total: 300) - Steel/Poison - Overcoat/Overcoat/Slow Start
Revavroom-0 - 80/119/90/54/67/90 (Total: 500) - Steel/Poison - Overcoat/Overcoat/Filter
Orthworm-0 - 70/85/145/60/55/65 (Total: 480) - Steel/Steel - Earth Eater/Earth Eater/Sand Veil
Tandemaus-0 - 50/50/45/40/45/75 (Total: 305) - Normal/Normal - Run Away/Pickup/Own Tempo
Maushold-0 - 74/75/70/65/75/111 (Total: 470) - Normal/Normal - Friend Guard/Cheek Pouch/Technician
Maushold-1 - 74/75/70/65/75/111 (Total: 470) - Normal/Normal - Friend Guard/Cheek Pouch/Technician
Cetoddle-0 - 108/68/45/30/40/43 (Total: 334) - Ice/Ice - Thick Fat/Snow Cloak/Sheer Force
Cetitan-0 - 170/113/65/45/55/73 (Total: 521) - Ice/Ice - Thick Fat/Slush Rush/Sheer Force
Frigibax-0 - 65/75/45/35/45/55 (Total: 320) - Dragon/Ice - Thermal Exchange/Thermal Exchange/Ice Body
Arctibax-0 - 90/95/66/45/65/62 (Total: 423) - Dragon/Ice - Thermal Exchange/Thermal Exchange/Ice Body
Baxcalibur-0 - 115/145/92/75/86/87 (Total: 600) - Dragon/Ice - Thermal Exchange/Thermal Exchange/Ice Body
Tatsugiri-0 - 68/50/60/120/95/82 (Total: 475) - Dragon/Water - Commander/Commander/Storm Drain
Tatsugiri-1 - 68/50/60/120/95/82 (Total: 475) - Dragon/Water - Commander/Commander/Storm Drain
Tatsugiri-2 - 68/50/60/120/95/82 (Total: 475) - Dragon/Water - Commander/Commander/Storm Drain
Cyclizar-0 - 70/95/65/85/65/121 (Total: 501) - Dragon/Normal - Shed Skin/Shed Skin/Regenerator
Pawmi-0 - 45/50/20/40/25/60 (Total: 240) - Electric/Electric - Static/Natural Cure/Iron Fist
Pawmo-0 - 60/75/40/50/40/85 (Total: 350) - Electric/Fighting - Volt Absorb/Natural Cure/Iron Fist
Pawmot-0 - 70/115/70/70/60/105 (Total: 490) - Electric/Fighting - Volt Absorb/Natural Cure/Iron Fist
Wattrel-0 - 40/40/35/55/40/70 (Total: 280) - Electric/Flying - Wind Power/Volt Absorb/Competitive
Kilowattrel-0 - 70/70/60/105/60/125 (Total: 490) - Electric/Flying - Wind Power/Volt Absorb/Competitive
Bombirdier-0 - 70/103/85/60/85/82 (Total: 485) - Flying/Dark - Big Pecks/Keen Eye/Rocky Payload
Squawkabilly-0 - 82/96/51/45/51/92 (Total: 417) - Normal/Flying - Intimidate/Hustle/Guts
Squawkabilly-1 - 82/96/51/45/51/92 (Total: 417) - Normal/Flying - Intimidate/Hustle/Guts
Squawkabilly-2 - 82/96/51/45/51/92 (Total: 417) - Normal/Flying - Intimidate/Hustle/Sheer Force
Squawkabilly-3 - 82/96/51/45/51/92 (Total: 417) - Normal/Flying - Intimidate/Hustle/Sheer Force
Flamigo-0 - 82/115/74/75/64/90 (Total: 500) - Flying/Fighting - Scrappy/Tangled Feet/Costar
Klawf-0 - 70/100/115/35/55/75 (Total: 450) - Rock/Rock - Anger Shell/Shell Armor/Regenerator
Nacli-0 - 55/55/75/35/35/25 (Total: 280) - Rock/Rock - Purifying Salt/Sturdy/Clear Body
Naclstack-0 - 60/60/100/35/65/35 (Total: 355) - Rock/Rock - Purifying Salt/Sturdy/Clear Body
Garganacl-0 - 100/100/130/45/90/35 (Total: 500) - Rock/Rock - Purifying Salt/Sturdy/Clear Body
Glimmet-0 - 48/35/42/105/60/60 (Total: 350) - Rock/Poison - Toxic Debris/Toxic Debris/Corrosion
Glimmora-0 - 83/55/90/130/81/86 (Total: 525) - Rock/Poison - Toxic Debris/Toxic Debris/Corrosion
Shroodle-0 - 40/65/35/40/35/75 (Total: 290) - Poison/Normal - Unburden/Pickpocket/Prankster
Grafaiai-0 - 63/95/65/80/72/110 (Total: 485) - Poison/Normal - Unburden/Poison Touch/Prankster
Fidough-0 - 37/55/70/30/55/65 (Total: 312) - Fairy/Fairy - Own Tempo/Own Tempo/Klutz
Dachsbun-0 - 57/80/115/50/80/95 (Total: 477) - Fairy/Fairy - Well-Baked Body/Well-Baked Body/Aroma Veil
Maschiff-0 - 60/78/60/40/51/51 (Total: 340) - Dark/Dark - Intimidate/Run Away/Stakeout
Mabosstiff-0 - 80/120/90/60/70/85 (Total: 505) - Dark/Dark - Intimidate/Guard Dog/Stakeout
Bramblin-0 - 40/65/30/45/35/60 (Total: 275) - Grass/Ghost - Wind Rider/Wind Rider/Infiltrator
Brambleghast-0 - 55/115/70/80/70/90 (Total: 480) - Grass/Ghost - Wind Rider/Wind Rider/Infiltrator
Gimmighoul-0 - 45/30/70/75/70/10 (Total: 300) - Ghost/Ghost - Rattled/Rattled/Rattled
Gimmighoul-1 - 45/30/25/75/45/80 (Total: 300) - Ghost/Ghost - Run Away/Run Away/Run Away
Gholdengo-0 - 87/60/95/133/91/84 (Total: 550) - Steel/Ghost - Good as Gold/Good as Gold/Good as Gold
Great Tusk-0 - 115/131/131/53/53/87 (Total: 570) - Ground/Fighting - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
Brute Bonnet-0 - 111/127/99/79/99/55 (Total: 570) - Grass/Dark - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
Sandy Shocks-0 - 85/81/97/121/85/101 (Total: 570) - Electric/Ground - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
Scream Tail-0 - 115/65/99/65/115/111 (Total: 570) - Fairy/Psychic - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
Flutter Mane-0 - 55/55/55/135/135/135 (Total: 570) - Ghost/Fairy - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
Slither Wing-0 - 85/135/79/85/105/81 (Total: 570) - Bug/Fighting - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
Roaring Moon-0 - 105/139/71/55/101/119 (Total: 590) - Dragon/Dark - Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis/Protosynthesis
Iron Treads-0 - 90/112/120/72/70/106 (Total: 570) - Ground/Steel - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
Iron Moth-0 - 80/70/60/140/110/110 (Total: 570) - Fire/Poison - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
Iron Hands-0 - 154/140/108/50/68/50 (Total: 570) - Fighting/Electric - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
Iron Jugulis-0 - 94/80/86/122/80/108 (Total: 570) - Dark/Flying - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
Iron Thorns-0 - 100/134/110/70/84/72 (Total: 570) - Rock/Electric - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
Iron Bundle-0 - 56/80/114/124/60/136 (Total: 570) - Ice/Water - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
Iron Valiant-0 - 74/130/90/120/60/116 (Total: 590) - Fairy/Fighting - Quark Drive/Quark Drive/Quark Drive
Ting-Lu-0 - 165/110/130/50/80/45 (Total: 580) - Dark/Ground - Vessel of Ruin/Vessel of Ruin/Vessel of Ruin
Chien-Pao-0 - 80/130/80/90/65/135 (Total: 580) - Dark/Ice - Sword of Ruin/Sword of Ruin/Sword of Ruin
Wo-Chien-0 - 85/90/100/100/135/70 (Total: 580) - Dark/Grass - Tablets of Ruin/Tablets of Ruin/Tablets of Ruin
Chi-Yu-0 - 55/80/80/145/120/100 (Total: 580) - Dark/Fire - Beads of Ruin/Beads of Ruin/Beads of Ruin
Koraidon-0 - 100/135/115/85/100/135 (Total: 670) - Fighting/Dragon - Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse
Koraidon-1 - 100/135/115/85/100/135 (Total: 670) - Fighting/Dragon - Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse
Koraidon-2 - 100/135/115/85/100/135 (Total: 670) - Fighting/Dragon - Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse
Koraidon-3 - 100/135/115/85/100/135 (Total: 670) - Fighting/Dragon - Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse
Koraidon-4 - 100/135/115/85/100/135 (Total: 670) - Fighting/Dragon - Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse/Orichalcum Pulse
Miraidon-0 - 100/85/100/135/115/135 (Total: 670) - Electric/Dragon - Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine
Miraidon-1 - 100/85/100/135/115/135 (Total: 670) - Electric/Dragon - Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine
Miraidon-2 - 100/85/100/135/115/135 (Total: 670) - Electric/Dragon - Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine
Miraidon-3 - 100/85/100/135/115/135 (Total: 670) - Electric/Dragon - Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine
Miraidon-4 - 100/85/100/135/115/135 (Total: 670) - Electric/Dragon - Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine/Hadron Engine
Tinkatink-0 - 50/45/45/35/64/58 (Total: 297) - Fairy/Steel - Mold Breaker/Own Tempo/Pickpocket
Tinkatuff-0 - 65/55/55/45/82/78 (Total: 380) - Fairy/Steel - Mold Breaker/Own Tempo/Pickpocket
Tinkaton-0 - 85/75/77/70/105/94 (Total: 506) - Fairy/Steel - Mold Breaker/Own Tempo/Pickpocket
Charcadet-0 - 40/50/40/50/40/35 (Total: 255) - Fire/Fire - Flash Fire/Flash Fire/Flame Body
Armarouge-0 - 85/60/100/125/80/75 (Total: 525) - Fire/Psychic - Flash Fire/Flash Fire/Weak Armor
Ceruledge-0 - 75/125/80/60/100/85 (Total: 525) - Fire/Ghost - Flash Fire/Flash Fire/Weak Armor
Toedscool-0 - 40/40/35/50/100/70 (Total: 335) - Ground/Grass - Mycelium Might/Mycelium Might/Mycelium Might
Toedscruel-0 - 80/70/65/80/120/100 (Total: 515) - Ground/Grass - Mycelium Might/Mycelium Might/Mycelium Might
Kingambit-0 - 100/135/120/60/85/50 (Total: 550) - Dark/Steel - Defiant/Supreme Overlord/Pressure
Clodsire-0 - 130/75/60/45/100/20 (Total: 430) - Poison/Ground - Poison Point/Water Absorb/Unaware
Annihilape-0 - 110/115/80/50/90/90 (Total: 535) - Fighting/Ghost - Vital Spirit/Inner Focus/Defiant
Abilities
Protean/Libero
: Appear to activate once per switch - Posted here
Intrepid Sword/Dauntless Shield: Activate once per match - Posted here

Changes to other abilities we thought were changed: Intimidate (No change), Contrary (No Change), Regenerator (No change in text, not tested mechanically)

Other Abilities: Found here and dotted through the thread

Ancient Paradoxes share an ability called: Protosynthesis - Boosts the Pokémon's most proficient stat in Harsh Sunlight or if the Pokémon is holding a Booster Energy - Image here
Future Paradoxes share an ability called: Quark Drive - Boosts the Pokémon's most proficient stat on Electric Terrain or if the Pokémon is holding a Booster Energy
Rest, Roost and Recover have both been reduced to 5PP. We presume this affects other healing moves too.
Hail has been replaced by Snowing - As far as we can tell, all references to Hail have now been replaced with Snowing. Snowing gives +Def and + SpD to Ice types and does not appear to do chip damage.

A big thank to Orange Islands people for gathering all these infos, don't hesitate to check the datamines thread there for more infos.

Happy posting!

(Note: So far, moves that can only be obtained through transfer are being kept to stay in line with National Dex mechanics. For example, Toxapex has not lost Scald and Knock Off here.)
 
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Arase

Banned deucer.
first to post so im the cutest user around. looks like abilities getting nerfed and alot of offensive mons are coming in the gen and spikes will be all around so all my homies are laughing at R8

the tier will be much different from the last one and im excited to play it
 
Last edited:

hidin

What a kind young man
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Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Everything Nice
Hazards are a defining mechanic in competitive play, allowing offensive Pokémon to turn 3HKO's to 2HKO's and rack up good chip over a course of time. With the introduction of Generation 9, a lot of new Pokémon gained access to hazards such as Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes including OU staples like Garchomp, Magearna, and other Pokémon that have seen use in OU, such as Hydreigon and Gengar. This post will document sets of Pokémon who have gained access to said hazards, and how they would perform in the metagame.

Stealth Rock
:ss/hydreigon:
Hydreigon
Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 24 SpA / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Stealth Rock
- Dark Pulse
- Earth Power

Hydreigon gained access to Stealth Rock via TM in Scarlet and Violet, giving it a pinch more of defensive utility. Stealth Rock can be set up on the switch-in to Pokémon like Inferno Overdrive and Bloom Doom Heatran, Victini, and choice-locked Gholdengo, which Hydreigon has a good match up with. Otherwise, I don't see anything much notable about it.


Kleavor
Kleavor @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Close Combat
- Stone Axe
- Rock Slide

Kleavor may have a niche due to it learning Stone Axe, a move which sets up Stealth Rock and does damage to the opponent. It can also be a potent pivot due to how easily it is to set up Stealth Rock with just the click of a button.

:ss/gastrodon:
Gastrodon
Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Recover / Toxic / Clear Smog

Gastrodon can now set up Stealth Rocks in Scarlet and Violet, turning it into a nice special sponge with a good defensive typing who can now set up hazards. It has quite a lot of opportunities to use Stealth Rock as well, and can do it infront of Pokémon like Heatran without Bloom Doom, Tapu Koko, Manaphy without Energy Ball, Chi-Yu, and Rotom-Wash.

Spikes

:ss/garchomp:
Garchomp
Garchomp @ Focus Sash
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Dragon Tail / Flamethrower
- Spikes

Garchomp now learns Spikes via TM in Scarlet and Violet, giving it utility as a defensive Pokémon, and could possibly even be a suicide lead. TankChomp's opportunities to set up Spikes are at a all time high now, due to how much Pokémon it just forces out, and can give cleaners that are paired with Garchomp like Flutter Mane, Chien-Pao, Magearna, Volcarona, and Roaring Moon chances to demolish teams with some Spikes up on the field. Suicide Lead Garchomp can be a decent Stealth Rocker and Spikers for Hyper Offense, and can beat most frail lead Pokémon 1v1.

:ss/magearna:
Magearna
Magearna @ Choice Specs
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon / Aura Sphere
- Trick / Spikes

Here we have Magearna, an infamous Pokémon here in National Dex due to its unpredictability. It has also gained access to Spikes, which can help it wear down its checks like Ferrothorn, Heatran, Mega Scizor, and more, whilst also providing support to other teammates. This would probably be a niche set though; since Magearna has a wide variety of options to choose from.

:ss/gastrodon:
Gastrodon
Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Spikes
- Recover / Toxic / Clear Smog

In addition to Stealth Rock, Gastrodon also got Spikes. Due to its longevity, it would probably be a nice hazard stacker on teamstyles like Bulky Offense, Fat, or Balance. Nothing else is much notable about using Spikes on it; but it can be used over Stealth Rock due to it only being marginally better.

:ss/diancie-mega:
Mega Diancie
Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
- Mystical Fire / Earth Power
- Spikes

Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Stealth Rock / Endeavor
- Spikes / Endeavor
- Moonblast

Mega Diancie with Spikes may be a potent offensive Pokémon, due to Spikes chipping down checks like Toxapex, Amoonguss, Heatran, and Ferrothorn, and also can give it some utility as well. SubEndeavor Mega Diancie can be used as a lead to have a near guaranteed chance to set up hazards while blocking opposing ones, which can be quite a pain to deal with, but can be exploited.

Toxic Spikes

:ss/gengar:
Gengar @ Ghostium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot / Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Toxic Spikes

Gengar has gained access to Toxic Spikes, and sadly is the only notable new user of it. Toxic Spikes allows Gengar to wear down its checks like Chansey and Tyranitar more quickly, as well as crippling the opponents team with poison. Besides that, I see no other niche that Gengar would have with Toxic Spikes.


Overall, hazards have been distributed a lot in this generation, and I am looking forward to seeing all of the new hazard setters in the metagame. Hope you enjoyed this post, and have fun theorymonning!
 
As we all know, recovery recieved a nerf during the generational transition. Although we have no experience with the new generation yet, I think this nerf in conjunction with rising powercreep levels has truly led to the death of all defensive play. I personally think this will lead to a very stale, unfun generation. My proposal is that, at some point, we really should undo this nerf to balance the meta.

Why?

Some of you may be thinking "I've never even seen a recover get used 8 times during a game, what's the big issue?" Well, let me give an example:

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Standard defensive Clefable vs Garchomp

This calc is a great example of my theory, as the eq damage does enough to have a very real chance of a 3HKO, meaning Clef is not afforded a free turn. With old recovery mechanics, to fully stall out the recovery of Clef, Garchomp would have to completely burn all of its 16 PP EQ. Not a great trade, right? You would be better off to preserve that EQ and switch. However, with the new mechanics, Garchomp can press EQ as many times as it wants, as Clef, (the defensive answer) will guaranteed lose this interaction. In exchange for only half of its EQ PP, Garchomp either gets a KO or forces a switch, completely unthreatened. Some of you may say "Oh why don't you just switch into a secondary Chomp answer like Skarmory?" Well, there's a problem with that. To begin with, stuff like balance teams won't be able to afford to stack defensive checks to a single pokemon without leaving themselves vulnerable to other mons. Even stuff like stall and semi will then be switching out a chipped Clef to send out another mon with limited recovery to get more chip. Those forced interactions perfectly set up for Chomp's offensive teamates, who appreciate walls being chipped. There's any number of interactions like this, it isn't just Garchomp and Clefable. This nerf also makes for a nasty weakness to hazards, which now has far more distribution than before. These weaknesses are so detrimental, why even run a defensive pokemon at all?

The Final Nail In The Coffin

The previous calc and example was 2 neutral, unboosted targets. The real kicker, however, is the many movepool changes. Many mons got great additional coverage, decreasing their ability to be walled, in addition to monsters like Cinderace and Urshifu getting access to Swords Dance. Stall specifically is in an especially dire position, as the new hazard-setting attacks ignore magic bounce, meaning they will have to deal with entirely unavoidable hazards being set up. If only there was some way to wall these mons!

In Conclusion

If recover were to be unnerfed, I think it would be far from a negative change. It would save them meta from being 1 dimensional Hyper Offense rocket tag. It won't make defensive play overpowered either, as natural powercreep is still hurting defensive playstyles a lot in the generational shift. I acknowledge this would be a relatively radical change, as it is extremely rare for an "offical" metagame to deviate from the mainline game mechanics, however, much like sleep clause, it is a necessary change for balancing to keep the meta healthy and playable. Thank you for taking my opinions on the recovery nerf into consideration and I thank you for your time.
 

sealoo

PaulGod
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
As we all know, recovery recieved a nerf during the generational transition. Although we have no experience with the new generation yet, I think this nerf in conjunction with rising powercreep levels has truly led to the death of all defensive play. I personally think this will lead to a very stale, unfun generation. My proposal is that, at some point, we really should undo this nerf to balance the meta.

Why?

Some of you may be thinking "I've never even seen a recover get used 8 times during a game, what's the big issue?" Well, let me give an example:

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Standard defensive Clefable vs Garchomp

This calc is a great example of my theory, as the eq damage does enough to have a very real chance of a 3HKO, meaning Clef is not afforded a free turn. With old recovery mechanics, to fully stall out the recovery of Clef, Garchomp would have to completely burn all of its 16 PP EQ. Not a great trade, right? You would be better off to preserve that EQ and switch. However, with the new mechanics, Garchomp can press EQ as many times as it wants, as Clef, (the defensive answer) will guaranteed lose this interaction. In exchange for only half of its EQ PP, Garchomp either gets a KO or forces a switch, completely unthreatened. Some of you may say "Oh why don't you just switch into a secondary Chomp answer like Skarmory?" Well, there's a problem with that. To begin with, stuff like balance teams won't be able to afford to stack defensive checks to a single pokemon without leaving themselves vulnerable to other mons. Even stuff like stall and semi will then be switching out a chipped Clef to send out another mon with limited recovery to get more chip. Those forced interactions perfectly set up for Chomp's offensive teamates, who appreciate walls being chipped. There's any number of interactions like this, it isn't just Garchomp and Clefable. This nerf also makes for a nasty weakness to hazards, which now has far more distribution than before. These weaknesses are so detrimental, why even run a defensive pokemon at all?

The Final Nail In The Coffin

The previous calc and example was 2 neutral, unboosted targets. The real kicker, however, is the many movepool changes. Many mons got great additional coverage, decreasing their ability to be walled, in addition to monsters like Cinderace and Urshifu getting access to Swords Dance. Stall specifically is in an especially dire position, as the new hazard-setting attacks ignore magic bounce, meaning they will have to deal with entirely unavoidable hazards being set up. If only there was some way to wall these mons!

In Conclusion

If recover were to be unnerfed, I think it would be far from a negative change. It would save them meta from being 1 dimensional Hyper Offense rocket tag. It won't make defensive play overpowered either, as natural powercreep is still hurting defensive playstyles a lot in the generational shift. I acknowledge this would be a relatively radical change, as it is extremely rare for an "offical" metagame to deviate from the mainline game mechanics, however, much like sleep clause, it is a necessary change for balancing to keep the meta healthy and playable. Thank you for taking my opinions on the recovery nerf into consideration and I thank you for your time.
stall packwatch
 
Just as a note -- the 2nd pastebin in the data dump, the one with all of the abilities, movesets, etc. has been taken down. I was trying to find out Annihlape's moveset.

updated - S&L
 
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sealoo

PaulGod
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
fr gonna put my thoughts here

-this meta is gonna trend hella trend towards offensive spikestack with the given changes. i'd expect ferro to be a v good mon this gen, or at least in the early stages

-agren might make a resurgence given how much mons like pex are forced to waste recover, while ferro/fini are both suspectible to spikes.

-dont wanna ramble too long, but i think this gen should be fun especially with some unban chaos :blobthumbsup:
 

R8

Leads Natdex Other Tiers, not rly doing ndou stuff
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Contributor Alumnus
National Dex Leader
As we all know, recovery recieved a nerf during the generational transition. Although we have no experience with the new generation yet, I think this nerf in conjunction with rising powercreep levels has truly led to the death of all defensive play. I personally think this will lead to a very stale, unfun generation. My proposal is that, at some point, we really should undo this nerf to balance the meta.

Why?

Some of you may be thinking "I've never even seen a recover get used 8 times during a game, what's the big issue?" Well, let me give an example:

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Standard defensive Clefable vs Garchomp

This calc is a great example of my theory, as the eq damage does enough to have a very real chance of a 3HKO, meaning Clef is not afforded a free turn. With old recovery mechanics, to fully stall out the recovery of Clef, Garchomp would have to completely burn all of its 16 PP EQ. Not a great trade, right? You would be better off to preserve that EQ and switch. However, with the new mechanics, Garchomp can press EQ as many times as it wants, as Clef, (the defensive answer) will guaranteed lose this interaction. In exchange for only half of its EQ PP, Garchomp either gets a KO or forces a switch, completely unthreatened. Some of you may say "Oh why don't you just switch into a secondary Chomp answer like Skarmory?" Well, there's a problem with that. To begin with, stuff like balance teams won't be able to afford to stack defensive checks to a single pokemon without leaving themselves vulnerable to other mons. Even stuff like stall and semi will then be switching out a chipped Clef to send out another mon with limited recovery to get more chip. Those forced interactions perfectly set up for Chomp's offensive teamates, who appreciate walls being chipped. There's any number of interactions like this, it isn't just Garchomp and Clefable. This nerf also makes for a nasty weakness to hazards, which now has far more distribution than before. These weaknesses are so detrimental, why even run a defensive pokemon at all?

The Final Nail In The Coffin

The previous calc and example was 2 neutral, unboosted targets. The real kicker, however, is the many movepool changes. Many mons got great additional coverage, decreasing their ability to be walled, in addition to monsters like Cinderace and Urshifu getting access to Swords Dance. Stall specifically is in an especially dire position, as the new hazard-setting attacks ignore magic bounce, meaning they will have to deal with entirely unavoidable hazards being set up. If only there was some way to wall these mons!

In Conclusion

If recover were to be unnerfed, I think it would be far from a negative change. It would save them meta from being 1 dimensional Hyper Offense rocket tag. It won't make defensive play overpowered either, as natural powercreep is still hurting defensive playstyles a lot in the generational shift. I acknowledge this would be a relatively radical change, as it is extremely rare for an "offical" metagame to deviate from the mainline game mechanics, however, much like sleep clause, it is a necessary change for balancing to keep the meta healthy and playable. Thank you for taking my opinions on the recovery nerf into consideration and I thank you for your time.

So far, the only precedents for modding the game are mods limiting a certain broken mechanic (Sleep Clause Mod and Freeze Clause Mod (for generations 1-4), and modding was an accepted option there because this was the only way to nerf these mechanics without ; keeping 16 PPs on recovery moves is something entierely different, as not only you are directly modifying an element that is not even the broken aspect of the metagame, but also because you are significantly derailling from the way the game is supposed to work. If the game is unbalanced, there are many tiering actions we can think of first before even thinking about buffing recovery moves. More generally, tiering action should be focused on getting rid of the broken/unbalanced elements rather than trying to make its counterplay better, and if some threat becomes too centralizing or broken as a consequence of the recover nerf, then just get rid of it. Reverting the recovery nerf also is fundamentally messing with the definition of the NatDex metagame, that should assume gen9 mechanics.

Also, saying that the recovery nerf combined to the incoming powercreep "led to the death of all defensive play" is probably an exaggeration imo. Obviously this is going to be really bad for defensive playstyles, but i believe there still might be some ways to deal with the recovery issues on that kind of teams(i might make a post about it later, but tldr : trying to be able to deal with stuff while minimizing the number of times you will have to click recovery moves, through things like regenerator, going full spikes/hazards/chip immune while stacking your own hazards (like "superman" builds in adv, or some stalls in DPP that stacks multiple spikes immunes), planning in the builder against cores that might want to try to deplete PPs from specific defensive presences by stacking checks to the pokemon involved in those cores. Just going for semi-stall/fat might be the better option, as there you are building towards a specific win-condition rather than trying to wall things forever - tbh those styles often are more consistent than pure stall in general anyway, so pure stall still is being that one weird bad fish it always has been). Everything isnt clefable either, and the merit some Pokemon like Slowbro, Blissey or like Toxapex have is their ability to not be immediately forced to click their recovery move when they switch into anything.

More generally we shouldn't jump this quickly into the "omg this metagame is going to be awful no matter what" train. Who know, once we get rid of the broken stuff it might not be that bad, things can go a long way.
 

Peum

formerly Mandibuladel5555
-agren might make a resurgence given how much mons like pex are forced to waste recover, while ferro/fini are both suspectible to spikes.
agren is totally dead, they changed the ability. It is good but not as good as before
 

Cookie Butter

formerly the someone
With the new Pokemon Home movepool mechanics, will the National Dex format keep learnsets for moves such as Scald and Knock Off?
Would we not keep it in here? I’m confused with how it works tbh
Battle Bond now increases Attack, Special Attack and Speed once per battle, with the same requirement as the transformation, getting a KO. This replaced the transformation.
 

R8

Leads Natdex Other Tiers, not rly doing ndou stuff
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Contributor Alumnus
National Dex Leader
With the new Pokemon Home movepool mechanics, will the National Dex format keep learnsets for moves such as Scald and Knock Off?
(Note: So far, moves that can only be obtained through transfer are being kept to stay in line with National Dex mechanics. For example, Toxapex has not lost Scald and Knock Off here.)
So yes probably
 
The decreased recovery pp might not be too bad. I think that fat teams might start to run multiple wish users (alomomola, clefable) to make up for the decreased recovery, and I've never had to click a recovery move more than 8 times against an offensive team.

In fact, after all the brokens are banned, fat might still be viable due to things like gastrodon gaining hazards, which allow for better role compression.

i definitely think that it'll be harder for fat to survive next gen tho.
 

R8

Leads Natdex Other Tiers, not rly doing ndou stuff
is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Contributor Alumnus
National Dex Leader
Just mentionning it because someone has to eventually: Misdreavus-Past (Or Flutter Mane) is absolutely getting the banhammer. Fast ghosts in general are really dumb, and there is no way this thing is going to be an exception.

For those who do not know: Misrdeavus-Past is a Ghost-Fairy type with access to SBall, Moonblast and Calm Mind with 135 speed and spa. I think the mon is very comparable to spectrier, even though it does not have the snowballing power of the horse (as it doesnt have nplot or an equivalent to Grim Neigh), its a much better wallbreaker as it just smacks the few darks that the tier could have otherwise use against it, such as TTar or Hydreigon. I think might be the best set:
Flutter Mane @ Ghostium Z / Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute / Protect
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball

Suggesting tect just to make sure MLop can't try to chip you down with fake out - since, of course, flutter mane ties with it -, and scouting some potential scarf Weaviles that might try to 50/50 it. A set with the booster item (idk how this is called) could work too.

Specs might be stupid to face as well, though u can probably dance around that with like a spdef regen + a dark or blissey (specs psyshock does 40% max). It also gets some moves that could be looked into, like DKiss, Mean Look or Stored Power but idt those are worth much cuz you already smack everything with your stabs.
 
Last edited:
Anyone think that Espathra might have potential? Probably not going to be very viable, but it does have speed boost + stored power.

A set like this might work:

Espathra @ Leftovers/ Psychium Z
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Stored Power
- Calm Mind
- Protect

Substitute + protect allows u to get to +6 speed. You'll probably be able to get in a calm mind as well.

At +6 with 1 calm mind, stored power has 200 BP.
 
As a consequence of recovery moves being nerfed to 8 PP, I'd like to bring some attention to an outliar:

:vespiquen: Since Heal Order will not be in Scarlet and Violet, even though it seems logical to conclude that they would also nerf its PP were it to be added, I believe that Heal Order's PP should remain at 16 for the same reason that Camerupt is not being given Scorching Sands in Gen 8 - Even if it seems obvious, unless there is game data to prove otherwise, it should remain as it was in the most recent generation that the move/pokemon is in, in Heal Order's case, this is Gen 7 where it has 16 PP

Will this make Vespiquen viable? Probably not but it may give it a niche

As we all know, recovery recieved a nerf during the generational transition. Although we have no experience with the new generation yet, I think this nerf in conjunction with rising powercreep levels has truly led to the death of all defensive play. I personally think this will lead to a very stale, unfun generation. My proposal is that, at some point, we really should undo this nerf to balance the meta.

Why?

Some of you may be thinking "I've never even seen a recover get used 8 times during a game, what's the big issue?" Well, let me give an example:

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Standard defensive Clefable vs Garchomp

This calc is a great example of my theory, as the eq damage does enough to have a very real chance of a 3HKO, meaning Clef is not afforded a free turn. With old recovery mechanics, to fully stall out the recovery of Clef, Garchomp would have to completely burn all of its 16 PP EQ. Not a great trade, right? You would be better off to preserve that EQ and switch. However, with the new mechanics, Garchomp can press EQ as many times as it wants, as Clef, (the defensive answer) will guaranteed lose this interaction. In exchange for only half of its EQ PP, Garchomp either gets a KO or forces a switch, completely unthreatened. Some of you may say "Oh why don't you just switch into a secondary Chomp answer like Skarmory?" Well, there's a problem with that. To begin with, stuff like balance teams won't be able to afford to stack defensive checks to a single pokemon without leaving themselves vulnerable to other mons. Even stuff like stall and semi will then be switching out a chipped Clef to send out another mon with limited recovery to get more chip. Those forced interactions perfectly set up for Chomp's offensive teamates, who appreciate walls being chipped. There's any number of interactions like this, it isn't just Garchomp and Clefable. This nerf also makes for a nasty weakness to hazards, which now has far more distribution than before. These weaknesses are so detrimental, why even run a defensive pokemon at all?

The Final Nail In The Coffin

The previous calc and example was 2 neutral, unboosted targets. The real kicker, however, is the many movepool changes. Many mons got great additional coverage, decreasing their ability to be walled, in addition to monsters like Cinderace and Urshifu getting access to Swords Dance. Stall specifically is in an especially dire position, as the new hazard-setting attacks ignore magic bounce, meaning they will have to deal with entirely unavoidable hazards being set up. If only there was some way to wall these mons!

In Conclusion

If recover were to be unnerfed, I think it would be far from a negative change. It would save them meta from being 1 dimensional Hyper Offense rocket tag. It won't make defensive play overpowered either, as natural powercreep is still hurting defensive playstyles a lot in the generational shift. I acknowledge this would be a relatively radical change, as it is extremely rare for an "offical" metagame to deviate from the mainline game mechanics, however, much like sleep clause, it is a necessary change for balancing to keep the meta healthy and playable. Thank you for taking my opinions on the recovery nerf into consideration and I thank you for your time.
I don't think that interaction is at all a guaranteed loss for Clef because it doesn't need to use Recover every turn, for example, most of the time it will only need to use it once each time it switches in (but can be forced to heal twice if Chomp gets good damage rolls), after the first or second heal, when Clef is no longer in 2 HKO range, Garchomp cannot stay in without risking a Moonblast and is thus forced out, sure, throughout the match, Chomp will be able to wear down Clef if it switches in repeatedly and doesn't get other chances to come in for free and heal off leftovers

Other defensive pokemon can also do a better job at walling 16 PP attacking moves than Clef, any mon with Regenerator can repeatedly switch-in in order to stall out PP since Regen heals forever so if you don't get 2 HKO'd then you likely won't lose much health if any by switching into a move and forcing something out, Pressure Corviknight and Zapdos would also even out the PP war against a 16 PP attacking move, 8 for 8

Another thing to mention is that some defensive pokemon like Heatran, Landorus-T and Ferrothorn, all of which are/were very successful in their jobs did not rely on 50% recovery moves and thus won't be negatively impacted by this change (unless Leech Seed's PP is also reduced)
 
Last edited:
As we all know, recovery recieved a nerf during the generational transition. Although we have no experience with the new generation yet, I think this nerf in conjunction with rising powercreep levels has truly led to the death of all defensive play. I personally think this will lead to a very stale, unfun generation. My proposal is that, at some point, we really should undo this nerf to balance the meta.

Why?

Some of you may be thinking "I've never even seen a recover get used 8 times during a game, what's the big issue?" Well, let me give an example:

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Standard defensive Clefable vs Garchomp

This calc is a great example of my theory, as the eq damage does enough to have a very real chance of a 3HKO, meaning Clef is not afforded a free turn. With old recovery mechanics, to fully stall out the recovery of Clef, Garchomp would have to completely burn all of its 16 PP EQ. Not a great trade, right? You would be better off to preserve that EQ and switch. However, with the new mechanics, Garchomp can press EQ as many times as it wants, as Clef, (the defensive answer) will guaranteed lose this interaction. In exchange for only half of its EQ PP, Garchomp either gets a KO or forces a switch, completely unthreatened. Some of you may say "Oh why don't you just switch into a secondary Chomp answer like Skarmory?" Well, there's a problem with that. To begin with, stuff like balance teams won't be able to afford to stack defensive checks to a single pokemon without leaving themselves vulnerable to other mons. Even stuff like stall and semi will then be switching out a chipped Clef to send out another mon with limited recovery to get more chip. Those forced interactions perfectly set up for Chomp's offensive teamates, who appreciate walls being chipped. There's any number of interactions like this, it isn't just Garchomp and Clefable. This nerf also makes for a nasty weakness to hazards, which now has far more distribution than before. These weaknesses are so detrimental, why even run a defensive pokemon at all?

The Final Nail In The Coffin

The previous calc and example was 2 neutral, unboosted targets. The real kicker, however, is the many movepool changes. Many mons got great additional coverage, decreasing their ability to be walled, in addition to monsters like Cinderace and Urshifu getting access to Swords Dance. Stall specifically is in an especially dire position, as the new hazard-setting attacks ignore magic bounce, meaning they will have to deal with entirely unavoidable hazards being set up. If only there was some way to wall these mons!

In Conclusion

If recover were to be unnerfed, I think it would be far from a negative change. It would save them meta from being 1 dimensional Hyper Offense rocket tag. It won't make defensive play overpowered either, as natural powercreep is still hurting defensive playstyles a lot in the generational shift. I acknowledge this would be a relatively radical change, as it is extremely rare for an "offical" metagame to deviate from the mainline game mechanics, however, much like sleep clause, it is a necessary change for balancing to keep the meta healthy and playable. Thank you for taking my opinions on the recovery nerf into consideration and I thank you for your time.
Of all the mechanic changes changes that don’t relate adding things not in the game, you really want recovery’s PP to be doubled? Tons of really uncompetitive elements like accuracy, paralysis, critical hits, flinching, and freeze/sleep, but recovery moves being nerfed is where action needs to be suddenly taken? Action I was always told that Smogon couldn’t take against such luck based elements because it would lead to a slippery slope of mechanic changes.
Unless you support changes like only Fake Out is able to Flinch or Paralysis just being speed drop, then I won’t be supporting your proposal and suggest you go play older gens.
 

sealoo

PaulGod
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
With the new Pokemon Home movepool mechanics, will the National Dex format keep learnsets for moves such as Scald and Knock Off?

Battle Bond now increases Attack, Special Attack and Speed once per battle, with the same requirement as the transformation, getting a KO. This replaced the transformation.
Wow nvm yea that sucks
 

hi.naming is hard

disoriented birds
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
With the new Pokemon Home movepool mechanics, will the National Dex format keep learnsets for moves such as Scald and Knock Off?

Battle Bond now increases Attack, Special Attack and Speed once per battle, with the same requirement as the transformation, getting a KO. This replaced the transformation.
so the ash greninja sprite would be gone and we get an one time super beast boost greninja now?
 
Just mentionning it because someone has to eventually: Misdreavus-Past (Or Flutter Mane) is absolutely getting the banhammer. Fast ghosts in general are really dumb, and there is no way this thing is going to be an exception.

For those who do not know: Misrdeavus-Past is a Ghost-Fairy type with access to SBall, Moonblast and Calm Mind with 135 speed and spa. I think the mon is very comparable to spectrier, even though it does not have the snowballing power of the horse (as it doesnt have nplot or an equivalent to Grim Neigh), its a much better wallbreaker as it just smacks the few darks that the tier could have otherwise used against it, such as TTar or Hydreigon. I think might be the best set:
Flutter Mane @ Ghostium Z / Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute / Protect
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Shadow Ball

Suggesting tect just to make sure MLop can't try to chip you down with fake out - since, of course, flutter mane ties with it -, and scouting some potential scarf Weaviles that might try to 50/50 it. A set with the booster item (idk how this is called) could work too.

Specs might be stupid to face as well, though u can probably dance around that with like a spdef regen + a dark or blissey (specs psyshock does 40% max). It also gets some moves that could be looked into, like DKiss, Mean Look or Stored Power but idt those are worth much cuz you already smack everything with your stabs.
Just a reminder that the item that synergizes with future/past mons could effectively be a specs or scarf without the lock, so ye things def getting the hammer
 

hidin

What a kind young man
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
1668371523473.png

My Pokémon Scarlet and Violet Tier List
I don't have much to say; so let's get into why the Pokémon are ranked where they are!
I WILL DO C AND D RANK LATER; WRITING ALL OF THIS IS MAD BORING

S Rank

When the metagame develops, all of these should be considered for a suspect test at the least.

Flutter Mane - R8 has explained how this is just blatantly broken, so I have nothing else to add on from my opinion about it.
Chien-Pao - This Pokémon is insane. Its ability does not function like a Defense-based Intimidate, and instead functions like a Defense-lowering Dark Aura, which means that any Pokémon that is facing it permanently has -1 Defense. Dark/Ice is also a very potent offensive typing, and with a nice Attack stat of 120 and coverage like Sacred Sword, Psychic Fangs, and a Electric-type Tera Blast (If it doesn't get banned) just pushes this above the limit.
Ting-Lu - 155/125/80 bulk with a Special Attack-lowering Dark Aura is nuts, this will eat anything and proceed to set up a layer of Spikes, not to mention it having access to a Nature's Madness clone with a trapping move and Taunt, and has a nice Attack stat of 110 and Ground-type STAB to back it up.
Basculegion - Last Respects is a 50 BP Ghost-type move that gets stronger by 50 points depending on how much dead teammates you have. When every teammate you have is dead bar Basculegion, it is 300 BP. Basculegion also happens to get Adapatability and a base 112 Attack stat with it. I think you can figure everything out from there.

A Rank
These Pokémon sound healthy for OU or may be just a tad bit over the limit, and can find considerable usage in the metagame.

Sneasler - I like this Pokémon; Poison/Fighting is a good STAB combo, and with an ability like Poison Touch and moves like Close Combat, Dire Claw (Which has a 46% to poison the target, a 16% to paralyze the target, and a 16% to put the target to sleep), Fire Punch, and U-Turn makes this a neat Pokémon in my eyes.
Enamorus - This Pokémon has a lot of coverage, such as Earth Power, Mystical Fire, and Focus Blast which can compliment its Fairy/Flying typing. It can also be good Defog deterrent here due to Contrary and Superpower, which can let it boost its already neat 115 Attack stat to monstrous levels if given the opportunity.
Ursaluna - STAB Facade with Guts and Ground-type STAB and with a colorful movepool? This Pokémon is most likely to preform very well in metagame due to all of the offensive utility it has.
Cyclizar - Shed Tail is carrying this, and the fact that this has Regenerator means that if you run a Choice Scarf on this, you are untouchable unless you are hit with priority or outsped, and Cyclizar has a nice 121 Speed stat, meaning you'll have to use something like Choice Scarf Greninja to counter it.
Pawmot - Revivial Blessing is an absolutely insane move, being able to bring one of your teammates back to clean up the opponent's team is mad crazy, and I see that move getting banned very quickly. Otherwise, I guess it has salvageable Speed and nice Attack with a nice offensive typing.
Gholdengo - Flutter Mane, but balanced. Steel/Ghost is a nice STAB combo and it has usable Speed, good Special Attack, and a colorful movepool to choose from. Blocking status and Defog is also a plus too. Overall, I like this Pokémon, and see it having success in the metagame.
Great Tusk - 120 BP STABs with a usable Speed tier and a very neat Attack stat is good, also has some utility with Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock.
Roaring Moon - Dragon Dance with 139/119 physical offenses are really, really good, and having a colorful movepool letting it pick and choose what it doesn't want to get stopped by. Can also have some defensive utility with 105/101 special bulk, being able to switch into Pokémon like Heatran and unboosted Gholdengo.
Iron Hands - This has Melmetal distribution; It throws off high powered attacks and eats a lot of moves while doing so. Assault Vest sounds neat to use on this.
Iron Bundle - Freeze-Dry is single-handedly carrying this Pokémon, as Water/Ice STAB can be quite mediocre sometimes. Pivoting moves such as U-Turn and STAB Flip Turn support it even further.
Iron Valiant - 130/120/116 offenses are devious, and combined with good coverage and set-up moves, this just may be a centralizing threat.
Chi-Yu - Honestly balanced, you need to Tera this Pokémon to not let this Pokémon to not be sat on by special walls that resist one or two of its STABs. Probably will see lower usage compared to other Pokémon in this tier.
Kingambit - Nice defensive typing with 100/120/85 bulk and a 135 Attack stat sound quite good. Supreme Overlord can clean up teams if it is on Trick Room or by just spamming Sucker Punch at the right times, otherwise I would stick with Defiant on this Pokémon. Knock Off's from this may also be nuclear.

Sets I made for Pokémon in A Rank (Excluding Kingambit)

B Tier
These Pokémon would be balanced in OU, but wouldn't see much usage in it as A Tier.

Enamorus-Therian - Can be cheese with ID + CM with Draining Kiss or be a RestTalk attacker, otherwise I don't have nothing much else to add here.
Meowscarada - This would most likely be A Tier if it wasn't for the Protean nerf, otherwise it has nice coverage in U-Turn and Spikes, and I could probably see sets like Choice Scarf and Band being used with this, and even Nasty Plot, due to its wide special movepool.
Espartha and Flamigo - I decided to put these both in the same section; as they share the same niche in being able to copy stat changes the opponent has on switch-in. Both could be nice niche deterrents to Nasty Plot and Swords respectively due to them being widespread to Pokémon this generation. Otherwise, I don't see them being used for anything else.
Palafin-Hero - Being able to change into a new form that has 100/160/97/106/87/100 stats from 100/70/72/53/62/100 by switching out is huge, a Choice Scarf or Band set with Flip Turn/Wave Crash/Close Combat/Ice Punch would probably see good use.
Baxcalibur - Being immune to burn is huge, could see a set consisting of DD/Icicle Crash/Glaive Rush/Earthquake or Thunder Fang being used, otherwise it's okay.
Kilowattrel - The ultimate Defog deterrent, as it beats most Defoggers in the 1v1 due to Competitive. Could be a nice offensive pivot for teams that need some Speed control.
Glimmora - Could function as a nice suicide lead with Stealth Rock/Spikes/Mortal Spin/Self-Destruct, otherwise I think it would be a Corrosion attacker with Power Gem/Toxic/Earth Power/Mortal Spin or Sludge Bomb.
Masbosstiff - Guard Dog is quite a cool ability, and Intimidate could be used for some defensive utility. Otherwise, I think it will find a niche once Ting-Lu is banned. Until then, its kind of outclassed.
Iron Treads - Nice offensive pivot with Volt Switch, Stealth Rock, and Rapid Spin. Think of Cobalion, but better typing and wider movepool. actual usable BoltBeam coverage on this is nice too.
Iron Jugulis - Moltres-Galar with a colorful movepool, Nasty Plot, and no need to use a Double Dance set with, since you don't even have Nasty Plot or Agility. Decent Pokémon overall.
Wo-Chien - Think of Ting-Lu, but less defensive, and a worse defensive typing. It lowering Attack stats may patch up its U-Turn weakness by a little, but besides that I see no reason to use this unless you need it on a fat team or something.
Ceruledge - May see some uses as a Focus Sash attacker with Weak Armor and Swords Dance on HO with Psychic Terrain support or something, otherwise, it sounds like a niche Pokémon that can throw off strong STABs.
Toedscruel - This having Mycelium Might sucks, a fast Pokémon with Spore would've been way cooler. Being able to status anything no matter what is pretty cool, maybe can use a SubSpore set with 2 Attacks.
Clodsire - Fat Pokémon with Water Absorb and hazards; can blanket check things like Tapu Koko and Zapdos and can set up Spikes infront of them as well. Physical bulk of it might be a problem.
Annihilape - Ghost/Fighting STAB is nuts, shame it has a Ghost-move with a weird mechanic and mediocre Speed.

Overall, my opinion on most Gen 9 Pokémon is quite neutral, however I hope most of the will have a niche here in OU. This might be my last post on this thread, but it may vary.
 
Last edited:

sealoo

PaulGod
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so the ash greninja sprite would be gone and we get an one time super beast boost greninja now?
pretty much

(excluding specs, standard agren spread)
Normal Gren spatk: 305
Normal Gren speed: 377
Normal Gren attack: 203

(excluding specs, standard agren spread)
AGren spatk: 405
AGren speed: 399
AGren attack: 293

(regular gren stats x 1.5)
New AGren spatk: 457
New AGren speed: 565
New AGren attack: 304


New AGren is p much a cleaner that is stronger and cant be revenge killed, however, it has to clean so you must eliminate the water resist or the dark resist first.
 
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