Resource SM ZU Viability Rankings (VR Changes #375)

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d · Apr 19, 2019

C+ Changes.

As 5gen pointed out in the viability update, the C+ tier has a ton of mons that may or may not be worth the spot.

To me, a C+ mon is niche and requires a lot of support for it to work, and even then it is heavily conditional for its success. Unlike C or C- though, they woule have unique capabilities and advantages, just not enough to warrant a B- ranking.

Should Stay C+:
Arbok, Ditto, Quiliden, Volbeat, Meowstic-M, Electrode, Armaldo, Masq, Smeargal, Ninjask, Armaldo, Relicanth, Shuckle, Regigigas, Basc, Huntail, Silvally-Poison, Vibrava, Golduck

These mons all have direct and relatively obvious teambuilding roles, and to an extent are the best at it.

Ditto is always a go to check for set up sweepers that balance and semi stall have used in all tiers.
Quiliden is a bulky and kind of fast spike user that has little competition.
Volbeat’s prankster and uturn makes it a great weather setter and usually a staple for weather teams
Smeargal, Masq, and Shuckle are the premier webs setters.
Arbok can easily punish teams with the right MU and get Coils off easily, and thanks to Sucker it isnt a complete sitting duck against something like scarf Vire’s EQ.
The rest have unique roles / typings that I deem viable enough and can go into detail in the future.

Drop from C+:
Cacturn, Leaveny, Glaceon, Lapras, and the Silvally-Grass and Electric

Leav competes with Leafeon as a fast SD grass type and at least three other better Sticky Web users.
Cacturn is yet another Grass type that would be completely outclassed by Shiftry if it werent for its coverage. However, even Quil is a better Spiker, and its mixed power is underwhelming with its low speed and frailness.
Glaceon lacks coverage, physical bulk, and the spot on a team when Aboma is usually a much safer pick, and even then there are a ton of more viable water types that can provide a team with Ice coverage if needed.
Lapras and its trapping set isnt that freindly in a meta that is offense orientated at the moment, and its poor typing and slow speed means that even Mis is a better parish trapper. Other sets wouldn’t be worth the C+ ranking as is.
The Silvallys still have a lot of good going for them, but the increasing opportunity cost of not using a higher ranked Silv really plays a role here. At least Silv-Poison can aborbs Tspikes and toxics, and Silv-Dark is a usefull pursuit trapper. These forms only have their typings, which are already overpopulated in this tier as is.

Rises from C+:
Beartic, Furf, M-Lyc, Regice

I’ve talked enough about Bear but I do believe that its viability largely outshines the support and niche it provides, unlike other C+ mons that need that support to just even out its viability on a team.
Furf has some really components to it that can make it a wincon with Cotton Guard or just a fast Band revenge killer that boasts U-Turn and Sucker support. In some ways its a weaker band Kom but with speed.
Lyc has a ton of variation and power to it, and having to juggle the mind games of what set it is (scarf, sash, double dance) could make you lose a mon in the process. Even if you know the set, it can still provide a lot of power with the right MU.
I’ll be back with edits and defence to a lot of these posts later. But I would like to see discussion on the C+ tier as a whole and I figured my post could generate that.

Apagogie · Apr 19, 2019

I will react to the discussion about the C+ Rank. All these mons have a good niche in ZU but generally relied on more support than çther mons in B to be ranked higher. The situation is quite different for lower ranks such as the C rank where there are barely only mons outclassed or only with a small niche. There is a big boundary between the C+ and the C rank. It's maybe the reason why the C+ rank is currently huge. A work has to be done to clean the worst/the most outclassed pokémons and i will try to focus on that.

I will first focus on the C and C- Rank and after doing more nominations on the C+ Rank :

C and C- Rank

Chimecho C -> C-

Chimecho has two main sets, defensive and TR setter. The first one is mainly outclassed by more reliable defensive options such as Altaria or Vibrava which have the same niche but in dealing better with more common threats such as Combusken or Abomasnow. The second set, trick room setter, is used in TR but only when the Z-move is needed or if the teams has 4 Tr setter because otherwise Dusknoir is a better choice with Z-Memento for a question of synergy and therefore have a more easy time to set up trick room. It makes Chimecho very outclassed in the majority of the situations and overall is a niche mon which should drop a place lower.

Natu C -> UU/UR

Natu has the syndrom of the niche mon. It is viable only in combinaison with Shedinja in some stalls but outside of that isn't worth used. The playstyle of shedstall is in itself very niche because it is not always effective according to the match up which is definitely something you dont want in playing stall. You're heaviley limited by the slots which makes you quickly weak to some threats and force you often to run no hazards in your team. Talking about hazards, natu has an okay match up against some mons such as Mawile, Gabite or Monferno but has trouble against other rockers such as Golem, Marowak or Rockers with a rock moves coverage. It can also be 2HKO by Psywave of Bronzor which is not something you want to. Natu, used only in a playstyle which is itself really niche and not always effective, is not really viable in our current meta. I think it could be unranked but UU works too.

Politoed C -> C-

Politoed gets two sets : more or less a tank set which can be as offensive as defensive and a perishtrapper set. The first set is outclassed by Silvally-Water which is simply better at this role thanks to better stats overall. Perishtrapper Politoed suffers from competition with Lapras which is less predictible between a specs set which hurts the majority of stall mons and perish song. Stall teams run often a ghost (Dusclops or Gourgeist-Super) which allows them to avoid the trap. Due to that, Politoed doesnt have strong reasons to be played instead of Vally-Water or Lapras and should therefore be dropped.

Trevenant C -> C-

I was a big defender of Trevenant but it is clear that it is not on the same level than other threats right now. Its best set is band (Z-+1 is not a reliable wincondition even gourgeist is better at that and harvest just doesnt do anything). Band suffer however from a huge competition with wallbreakers such as Komala band, Granbull Band, Beheyeem Specs, Bouffalant band, etc. These mons are globably more reliable than a Band Trevenant. It has however some qualities such as Trick or a Rest Natural cure and a good typing to hit stuff like Bronzor + Pyuku and that's why it should stay ranked but lower, at a C- rank.

Slaking C- -> Unranked

Here we go. It just doesnt deserve to be used. Mons such as Komala or Bouffalant band does exactly the same job but just in better and in avoiding a free turn of set up for the opponent. Very dangerous mons such as Combusken, Shiftry or any other set up sweeper are common ; have a mon which lets them set up is basically play a battle at 5 vs 6. Also, ghost types exist and even steel types start to have a little hype recently, protect is more used than before on different mons too to see on what moves the mon is locked. Basically, the only reason Slaking is played is for a strong pursuit but let a free turn is too dangerous in our current meta to advice someone to use it. It should never be played in any team.

The C+ Rank

Glaceon C+ -> C

The best set of Glaceon is specs. Z-Celebrate can be threaten for sure but requires more support and is easily manageable to be a decent wincondition compared to approximately every other set up sweepers we have in the tier. This set needs as well a team fully built around glaceon to work and it's the reason why I think Specs is globally better. Glaceon Specs over Abomasnow specs has some advantages but they are very small, Glaceon is a little bit faster (but which is not very important because the only thig you do is to dont speed tie with other 60 bst) and hits a little bit stronger.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Silvally: 244-288 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Silvally: 253-298 (76.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

However, Glaceon doesnt have the hail which allows to do damages at the end of the turn and build archetype of semi-hail. It has neither the Grass coverage which allows it to hit water type (which are popular right now btw) nor the versatility of Abomasnow which allows it to be unpredictable. The reasons to play Glaceon are a bit weak compared to the other mons in the C+ rank list and considering Abomasnow is often better. In fact, paradoxally, its best niche is in hail spam alongside Aboma with a very very strong specs blizzard which is able to destroy fattest walls. However, this niche requires far more support and is less important or strong than other mons to be kept C+. C is more accurate.

Silvally-electric C+ -> C

Silvally electric has two main utilities, be the best vally against Swanna and be a decent vally offensively. These niches allow Silvally-electric to be ranked in the C list Rank. However, beside that, other vallys offer more utility (cheking more mons, special utility such as poison or ground, being one of the only answers to set up sweepers, more versatility). Silvally-electric is rarely to not say never seen in tournaments. Also, Swanna being faster, it just needs little chip to weaken this Vally (scald does about 30% so with rocks, it has to be above 72%). It's not a reliable pick and more something you take in special builds when you're really weak to Swanna and needs to defog. Its niche is less important than the one of Vally-Poison and Vally-Grass have, both in C+, and that's why I think it could drop.

Leavanny C+ -> C-

Smeargle, Shuckle and Masquerain which are better Sticky Webs setter are all C+. Leavanny is less effective than them. Leavanny has a in theory a niche in being the fastest webs setter which allows it to dont take taunt of some mons such as Servine. However, faster taunters exist such as Floatzel or Simipour, Simisear. The fact that it is slower than defoggers like Silvally or Swanna means that it cannot take benefict of its offensive presence and has to spam sticky webs until dead to be sure to dont lose it. Masquerain, thanks to quiver dance, is able to use its offensive ability in outspeeding defoggers and in this way able to set up the webs every time Swanna/Vally removes it.

I dont see a strong reason of the utility or the niche that Leavanny has in this metagame. Masquerain outclassed it and Smeargle/Shuckle are better setter. C- is actually a soft possibility.

Volbeat C+ -> C

Okay, this one is more philosophical. I think the mons which are the representation of a playstyle should be ranked about the viability of the mon itself outside of ranking the playstyle. Volbeat is obviously the best mon to set up the weather but it is however not an amazing mon in itself. It does the job but we would like to have better setters if it was possible. Volbeat is a meh mon which is played for a decent playstyle. That's why i think it is not as viable as other threats in the C+ Rank and it should be placed at the C rank.

Armaldo C+ -> C

Armaldo is a Crustle low coast which needs rain to work. Its job in weather is alright though where its speed becomes decent and where it can hit strong enough and even on some teams spin (even if it's not always good using that for a question of 4mss). A team which loses against Armaldo loses also against Crustle and rain uses Armaldo most for the synergy of types than anything else. It is a mon generally outclassed and for this reason, it could drop to C rank.

Meowstic-M C+ -> C

Meowstic and electrode are both C+ and I think the second is the best of two. The abilty of electrode to prevent defog and to set up from the opponent with taunt is more valuable for HO than a priority provided on screens, considering the electric screener outspeeds anyway 90% of the meta. I think the move explosion is also key because it allows to avoid a painful switch on a frail mon. Meowstic is certainly a choice for bulkier screen teams but for offensive screens, which is the best screen archetype at the moment, electrode is a more solid pick.

Other nomination

Noctowl B- -> C

Since the beginning of ZU, we have felt that Noctowl could have an interesting niche in the tier. Unfortunately, it has not been judged effective or reliable enough to be played at high level. I dont think it was played a single time in seasonnal or any other tour (at least, not the final rounds). It needs to much turns of set up to see its double dance set works, especially now considering how common toxic, ice spam, electric spam and rock moves are common. This set is however good in screens but suffers from a huge competition between the number of members which can fit inside this archetype. Its specs set is outclassed by a big number of wallbreakers, notably Beheyeem or Abomasnown, the speed of noctowl being irrelevant in the majority of situations.

This Pokémon, despite some potential, is not as easy and reliable as we would like to play it much. I think the C Rank reflects more its place in the meta at the moment.

Thank you for reading

Ampha · Apr 19, 2019

So my thoughts on C+ mons here:

C+
Arbok -> Stay, cool niche setup mon and should stay here
Armaldo -> drop,I like its niche but its generally too underwhelming at all
Basculin -> rise, Idk why this wasn't on B- yet
Beartic -> drop, it depends 200% on team support to work properly and tbh I would just use SD abomasnow over it due to how better abomas breaks things than it
Bibarel -> drop, HM slave on Gourgeist being great at meta? no thanks
Cacturne -> Drop, not a mon I would use atm and is generally outclassed by other grasses (hey shiftry)
Ditto -> Stay, cool "copy paste" mon and having chance to counter sweep is fun
Drifblim -> Stay, I found out "drifloonblim" a good bulky ghost and it has some other fun unburden and flame orb techs
Electrode -> Stay or maybe rise, a good HO screen setter and reliable too bc of taunt,also has some breaking potential with LO/specs set if needed
Furfrou -> stay, Cotton guard is great for furfrou but I wouldnt rise this
Glaceon -> Drop, even tho its a cool specs or Z cele breaker this thing lacks the coverage to break things and as a defensive Ice I would just use avalugg
Golduck -> stay, good rain mon
Huntail -> A shell smash sweeper who cant even outspeed electivire at +2? Drop af
Lapras -> drop, I think this has same problem as relicanth (look down there) but with a whirpool trapper set too,still doesnt push it to stay here
Leavanny -> another Webs who loses to defoggers such as swanna,should go even lower than shuckle tbh
Lycanroc-Midnight -> rise, this thing has some great breaking potential with DD Lycanium after some checks are taken out
Masquerain -> rise,this thing actually has some potential with QD + webs set and I do think its better than some other setters from this rank in this niche
Meowstic-M -> If this thing had at least Taunt, I think it would stay here but it always get defog before it has a chance to do anything,drop
Ninjask -> tbh I would rise this but staying is ok, SD is a cool thing to play with and Cb is cool as well
Quilladin -> Meh mon but since Rose is prob not getting back so stay I guess?
Regice -> rise,its a cool bulky sp def mon who can also shine a setup sweeper
Regigigas -> stay, even with its terribad ability, regi can punish some fatter teams after SS has come out
Relicanth -> drop, yeah CB smash breaks some things but this thing lacks entries to do that and it normally gives a switch for a pokemon who walls it,also its slow af
Shuckle -> drop, too passive webs setter even with its great bulk it cant stop things from taking at least one hazard out with defog or spin
Silvally-Electric =
Silvally-Grass= This works for both Silv grass and electric, I would drop both bc they niche as defoggers is generally not needed over other forms,grass typing doesnt help it in this job and electric relies on not getting status at all and cant pressure much
Silvally-Poison -> Stay, Toxic spikes remover + Defogger is pretty cool for this rank
Smeargle -> Stay,its ok web setter for C+ and
Vibrava -> abstain
Volbeat -> stay,its niche as weather setter is nice in this rank and it should stay here

Also I don't think Machoke should rise at least at the moment,it for sure is a great mon but it also has some flaws who make Machoke not fit A- rank, I would say it would end up being the worst of the rank

Tsareentje · Apr 20, 2019

I will join the C+ rank spam. I wanted to make a more detailed one, because I feel not everyone has enough knowledge about the mons. That makes the ranking at the lower ranks a bit tough.

Arbok --> Stay

Arbok always finds its niche and it clarifies itself as a stable C+ Pokemon. Arbok has the excellent tools of two good abilities and a strong movepool. Arbok is decent in the current meta, especially with Intimidate. Intimidate and max Attack gives Arbok a solid matchup against Pokemon, like Shiftry, Leafeon and Kecleon. A coil set can set up on defensive Pokemons and later chip with Sucker Punch. Arbok struggles however with common Pokemon running Ground coverage, like Electivire, Komala and Rapidash.

Armaldo --> Stay

Armaldo may seem as a bad Pokemon, especially with Crustle being in ZU. Rock setter Armaldo can be seen as a worse Crustle, but that is not completely true. Armaldo has better stats outside of the Defense by a bit, the higher Attack is here however very important. Armaldo can use the same moves, but Armaldo swaps Spikes for Rapid Spin. Rapid Spin gives the team a different kind of support, which doesn’t let Crustle completely outclass. Rain sweeper Armaldo is, however the reason that Armaldo should stay in C+. Armaldo can set up SD and OHKO multiple common Pokemons. Its Speed stat let it however stop from sweeping. Armaldo’s good stats (outside of Speed) and movepool make Armaldo a decent Pokemon and C+ worthy.

252+ Atk Armaldo Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Bouffalant: 183-216 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Armaldo Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 220-261 (53.1 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Bouffalant: 162-192 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Crustle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 196-232 (47.3 - 56%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Basculin --> Stay

Basculin can heavily threaten teams with Adaptability and its useful coverage options. Basculin has the option to run four different sets with different niches: Choice Band, Life Orb and Waterium Z and a special variation. Basculin punishes common switchins, like Gourgeist-XL and Mareanie with Ice Beam and Zen Headbutt. Basculin can also revenge Pokemons with a strong Aqua Jet (which can be useful against Combusken). A 98 Speed let it speed-tie with Swanna and Basculin outspeeds a lot of common Pokemons in the meta, for example, unboosted Pinsir, Silvally forms and non scarf Rotom-Fan. However, Basculin has horrible bulk and it can be outclassed by Floatzel.

252 Atk Life Orb Basculin Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 117-138 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Basculin Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 177-211 (47.3 - 56.4%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Basculin Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Leafeon: 200-237 (73.8 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Example of its raw power: 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Basculin Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally: 200-237 (60.4 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Beartic --> Stay

There has been said a lot on Beartic already, so read the discussion from before for more information. Beartic is one of the stronger ZU Pokemons, it has a good offensive typing, high Attack stat, useful coverage, solid bulk and a good ability. Beartic is also good currently due to Abomasnow. But Beartic has the problem that it is pretty much limited to a hail core and even in hail Beartic does not hit a wished speedtier. With all those good points and the heavy bad points Beartic deserves to stay C+.

Bibarel --> Stay

Bibarel should stay C+ for its quite unique role. Bibarel has an amazing ability together with its movepool. With a SD boost Bibarel can reach 885 Attack, which let Bibarel break or clean late game with its priority moves. Bibarel provides a bit of the offensive meta, because it can hit hard, but it makes setting up tougher too. Bibarel also has a unique typing, which is barely resisted in ZU, only by Gourgeist-XL, Cradily and Trevenant. Bibarel works excellently with screens so it can set up better, but that is also a bit of a problem, because Bibarel needs some support. Bibarel is also very much matchup depended, because Bibarel can only have 4 slots, which really hinders it. With these bad and good points Bibarel deserves to stay in C+

Cacturne --> Stay

Cacturne has been a solid Pokemon for quite a time. With the current meta Cacturne may seem dropping from effectiveness, because people are preparing for Shiftry better. That is true, but Cacturne excels in a different role. Cacturne is used as an offensive Spikes setter and it has the niche that Cacturne has strong offensive stats. Unlike Quilladin, Cacuturne can deal great damage against incoming defoggers with its dual STAB. Cacturne also provides from Sucker Punch, which can be useful against Pokemons, like, Electivire and Floatzel. However, Cacturne struggles with it low Speed and defenses that prevent it from outshining.

252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Swanna: 250-294 (85.9 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Fan: 164-192 (54.1 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Fighting: 168-199 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 129-152 (42.4 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ditto opinionless/ not enough experience

Drifblim --> Stay

Drifblim is also a unique Pokemon in ZU, that has a great variety of sets due to its abilities and movepool. Drifblim can be a bit tricky in the current meta with Sucker Punch or even Rock Blast getting used. Drifblim utilizes an Unburden Subsitute set the best. An Unburden boosted Drifblim is able to outspeed a scarfed Electivire, which makes Drifblim a threat late game and a tough revengable Pokemon. The strong Acrobatics is an added bonus. Drifblim has a decent matchup in the current meta, because it has enough bulk to get it to the Unburden boost and enough power to clean Only having 4 slots and not having a reliable physical Ghost attack or a strong special Flying attack always held Drifblim a bit back. With these reasons Drifblim is a C+ worthy Pokémon.

Electrode --> Stay

Electrode has an outstanding Speed stat, which is Electrode’s strongest quality. Electrode has an excellent movepool for supportive use, with Screens, Explosion, Volt Switch, Taunt and Foul Play. With HO being solid in an offensive meta Electrode must be a top tier, but there are a couple things holding Electrode back: mainly its match up as a lead against Golem. Electrode can Taunt but it is risky, because Golem can Earthquake on the first turn back. However Electrode is still a good Pokemon and definitely a C+ Pokémon.

Furfrou --> Stay

Furfrou first seen as an unserious / too niche Pokemon, made it to C+ and it is definitely C+ worthy and should stick there. Furfrou has to set up to get into gear, but at mid game / late game Furfrou is hard to stop. Furfrou also takes advantage of its ability and stats. With the right matchup Furfrou is able to slowly wear down Pokemon, like Shiftry and Leafeon. Furfrou is also able stall Pokemon with Rest, for example Gourgeist. Furfrou also has a good Choice Band set that gives pivoting and good Speed, unlike Normal-types: Komala, Bouffalant, Toucannon. Although Furfrou has strong and unique qualities it is still a less splashable Pokemon, like Komala.

C+ --> C

Union Caboche said:
The best set of Glaceon is specs. Z-Celebrate can be threaten for sure but requires more support and is easily manageable to be a decent wincondition compared to approximately every other set up sweepers we have in the tier. This set needs as well a team fully built around glaceon to work and it's the reason why I think Specs is globally better. Glaceon Specs over Abomasnow specs has some advantages but they are very small, Glaceon is a little bit faster (but which is not very important because the only thig you do is to dont speed tie with other 60 bst) and hits a little bit stronger.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Silvally: 244-288 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Silvally: 253-298 (76.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

However, Glaceon doesnt have the hail which allows to do damages at the end of the turn and build archetype of semi-hail. It has neither the Grass coverage which allows it to hit water type (which are popular right now btw) nor the versatility of Abomasnow which allows it to be unpredictable. The reasons to play Glaceon are a bit weak compared to the other mons in the C+ rank list and considering Abomasnow is often better. In fact, paradoxally, its best niche is in hail spam alongside Aboma with a very very strong specs blizzard which is able to destroy fattest walls. However, this niche requires far more support and is less important or strong than other mons to be kept C+. C is more accurate.

Golduck --> Stay

Golduck may not seem attractive to take on a normal team, because its stats are too allround. That is why Golduck is pretty much limited to a rain core or rain team. In the rain Golduck becomes a dangerous threat and it is the best / one of the best rain abusers. Golduck deals heavy damage and it hits an excellent Speed. Golduck can break mid game and it let its team clean pretty easily.

252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Silvally in Rain: 324-382 (97.8 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Electivire in Rain: 398-468 (136.7 - 160.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Komala in Rain: 231-274 (69.1 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Komala in Rain: 324-382 (119.5 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Huntail C+ --> C

All the tools that Huntail has seems very promising, but in reality Huntail can barely pull it off quite well (unless Huntail is in the rain). The main reason that holds Huntail back is the dominance of Electivire. Huntail with a +2 boost fails to outspeed Electivire and Sucker Punch fails to kill an Electivire unless it is already chipped. And +2 SpA Ice Beam Huntail cannot OHKO Gourgeist-XL, again only when chipped. So Huntail is limited to cleaning at which Huntail lacks an important good speedtier. Huntail also struggles to set up or gets heavily chipped. So Huntail has the tools, but in reality can’t always pull them off well and is not complete enough.

+2 4 SpA Huntail Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 310-366 (82.8 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huntail Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 199-235 (68.3 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huntail Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Bouffalant: 256-303 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lapras C+ --> C

Lapras, the beloved Pokemon, really lost its effectiveness. Lapras has the niche of trapping Pokemon with Whirlpool+Perish Song. Lapras has the moves and stats, but its typing hinders it too much. The current meta isn’t friendly to Lapras either, because the meta is so offensive Lapras struggles to stand the turns of Perish Song. Different sets, like Choice Specs are not great either, because Lapras has not a good enough Speed or high enough Special Attack. That is why Lapras can’t really break through the team well, Lapras has the niche of having Freeze Dry over other special attackers though. With these reasons Lapras makes up for a fine C rank Pokemon.

Leavanny C+ --> C or C-

Union Caboche said:
Smeargle, Shuckle and Masquerain which are better Sticky Webs setter are all C+. Leavanny is less effective than them. Leavanny has a in theory a niche in being the fastest webs setter which allows it to dont take taunt of some mons such as Servine. However, faster taunters exist such as Floatzel or Simipour, Simisear. The fact that it is slower than defoggers like Silvally or Swanna means that it cannot take benefict of its offensive presence and has to spam sticky webs until dead to be sure to dont lose it. Masquerain, thanks to quiver dance, is able to use its offensive ability in outspeeding defoggers and in this way able to set up the webs every time Swanna/Vally removes it.

I dont see a strong reason of the utility or the niche that Leavanny has in this metagame. Masquerain outclassed it and Smeargle/Shuckle are better setter. C- is actually a soft possibility.

Lycanroc-Midnight --> Stay

Lycanroc can pressure teams heavily, but Lycanroc never really had its place in the meta. Lycanroc can run a dual dance set, but it can fail to set it all up. Even without set up Lycanroc can deal heavy damage and punch holes in teams. Lycanroc also has Sucker Punch, which makes up for its disappointing Speed. Lycanroc can hit common ZU Pokemon super effectively with its STAB, but it is outspeeded by many and it is chipped easily, this makes Lycanroc a very situational Pokemon. That is why Lycanroc is a very good, but situational C+ Pokemon.

252+ Atk Lycanroc-Midnight Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shiftry: 249-294 (77.5 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Lycanroc-Midnight Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 229-270 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Masquerain --> Stay

Masquerain is one of the better options for a Sticky Web setter. Masquerain has Intimidate, decent speed, solid Special Attack and a good movepool. Thanks to Hydro Pump Masquerain does well against common ZU leads, like Golem and Crustle. Masquerain can deal decent damage, unlike Smeargle or Shuckle, which makes Masquerain a primary option as a webs lead. Masquerain can also pull off Quiver Dance, although that set faces a lot of competition from Butterfree. However, Masquerain has weaknesses to common types and coverage moves, like Fire and Rock. Masquerain also has 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, which hinders for a good Intimidate Pokemon. With the mentioned points Masquerain makes up as a solid C+ Pokemon.

252 SpA Masquerain Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crustle: 254-300 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Masquerain Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Golem: 568-672 (156 - 184.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Meowstic-M --> Stay

Another Screen setter, Meowstic’s stats are slightly better than Electrode, especially Meowstic’s HP and Electrode’s Speed make the difference. Meowstic has Prankster over Electrode, but lacks Taunt. Meowstic can’t prevent Defog like, Electrode can. Having Prankster is safer in some situations, like when your Speed is dropped from Webs. Meowstic has Yawn to prevent set up or to annoy an incoming threat, like Shiftry that is free against Meowstic. Meowstic can also hit the common defogger Silvally-fighting super effectively and doesn’t have the bad matchup against Golem. Meowstic doesn’t have the momentum that Electrode has though. So, Meowstic is in some situations better and Electrode in other situations, that is why they are both C+ Pokemons.

Ninjask C+ --> C or Stay

The fastest Pokemon of ZU. Ninjask always has it uses in certain matches and being the fastest of all mons is a very strong quality. However, Ninjask has to do it with a horrible typing, weak Flying STAB, bad defenses and a solid Attack. Ninjask also needs to have SR removed, because it can barely live a hit on 50% health. However, a Choice Band set can be useful in mid-game with good support and a SD can clean very well late-game. With the pros and cons Ninjask is in my opinion a Pokemon between C+ and C, so I am not sure where to put it.

252+ Atk Ninjask Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 154-183 (52.9 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Ninjask Leech Life vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Bronzor: 84-100 (26.4 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Ninjask Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Fighting: 176-210 (44.6 - 53.2%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO

Quilladin C+ --> C

Quilladin faces competition from Cacturne as a Spikes setter, they are barely compareable, but Cacturne fits better in the current meta. Quilladin is a defensive Pokemon and it can tank Pokemons, like Electivire decently well. Quilladin also has a very good ability for Pokemons, like Mareanie and Shadow Ball. However, even after Roselia and Tangela rose, Quilladin never found its place in the meta. Quilladin has to rely on its Eviolite and its typing isn’t really good for its role, because Quilladin can barely switch in on Water type Pokemons, like Floatzel and Silvally-Water. Cacturne suits better in the meta with its strong STABs and Cacturne doesn’t have to rely on Eviolite. Defoggers can also come in on Quilladin easier. Quilladin is not completely passive though, because Wood Hammer can deal good damage against some Pokemons

Regice --> Stay

Regice has a skyhigh Special Defense stat and a good offensive typing. A protect set is becoming better lately, because ZU doesn’t offer that much Pokemons with a good Special Defense stat, like Regice has. Regice can hit very hard for a defensive Pokemon, thanks to its good STAB attack. Regice has to rely on Leftovers recovery or Rest though. And like all Ice types Regice struggles to come in on hits comfortable, with 1 resist and SR weakness. Regice has strong qualities that make it a solid C+ Pokemon.

252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Regice: 76-90 (20.9 - 24.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Regice: 109-130 (30 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Regice: 158-188 (43.5 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Regice: 166-196 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Regigigas opinionless/ not enough experience

Relicanth --> Stay

Relicanth is also a unique Pokemon in ZU, but the meta was never really into Relicanth’s favor. Relicanth has some very strong qualities that make it C+ worthy. Relicanth has a solid Attack and can spam a very strong Rock Head Head Smash, Relicanth also has water STAB as an added bonus for switchins, like Silvally-Ground, Machoke and Sandslash. Relicanth is mainly used to punish incoming switches, but it is revenged easily afterwards. Relicanth has a very good bulk (esp in Defense) however. Relicanth can also be used as a Rain support with Rain Dance and SR. Relicanth struggles a bit with the offensive meta, but it can take a hit.

Shuckle --> Stay

Just like other Web setter Shuckle struggles with the big amount of Defog. Shuckle offers Sticky Web and Stealth Rock. Shuckle also gives high defenses when there is defensive drawback needed for a team. With the excellent defensive stats, Shuckle can set up hazards successfully most of the time, but Shuckle faces Stealth Rock competition from Pokemon, like Crustle and Golem. Shuckle being taunt bait (unless Mental Herb) is the main reason that stops Shuckle from being successful. Shuckle is one of the better Web setters, but Sticky Web is not really relevant for the meta.

Silvally-Electric C+ --> C

Union Caboche said:
Silvally electric has two main utilities, be the best vally against Swanna and be a decent vally offensively. These niches allow Silvally-electric to be ranked in the C list Rank. However, beside that, other vallys offer more utility (cheking more mons, special utility such as poison or ground, being one of the only answers to set up sweepers, more versatility). Silvally-electric is rarely to not say never seen in tournaments. Also, Swanna being faster, it just needs little chip to weaken this Vally (scald does about 30% so with rocks, it has to be above 72%). It's not a reliable pick and more something you take in special builds when you're really weak to Swanna and needs to defog. Its niche is less important than the one of Vally-Poison and Vally-Grass have, both in C+, and that's why I think it could drop.

Silvally-Grass C+ --> C or Stay

Silvally-Grass struggles just like Silvally-Electric to come in on mons effectively. Silvally-Grass has many common weaknesses and it can be chipped down easily by coverage moves. Silvally-Grass has the niche that it has a good matchup against Golem, but even with the resist, Silvally-Water does that job way better. Silvally-Grass can be used as Shiftry check, but Silvally-Poison that is also in C+ does that job better too, with more useful niches. In general Silvally-Grass is outclassed by other Silvallys and isn’t outshining, but just an okay mon, that is why Silvally-Grass belongs in C or should stay C+.

Silvally-Poison C+ --> B-

Silvally-Poison is more effective in the current meta than the other C+ Pokemons are. Silvally-Poison has a fairly decent matchup against Shiftry. And Silvally-Poison can sponge Toxic Spikes from the common Mareanie. Silvally-Poison gives the team pivoting and useful resists in: Bug, Fairy, Fighting, Grass and Poison. The main problem that holds Silvally-Poison back, unlike other Silvally-Forms, like Water and Fighting, is its bad matchup against SR setters, like Bronzor, Golem and Crustle. Silvally-Poison can, however come in on other mons, for example, Leafeon, Shiftry and Machoke and clear the hazards from the field later in the game.

Smeargle --> Stay

Smeargle can be seen on HO for Webs and SR support, but Smeargle is limited to that playstyle, which doesn’t have to be a bad thing with offense dominating ZU at the moment. Smeargle is also a good spore user, because unlike Shiinotic it doesn’t have a horrible Speed. Smeargle is, however cursed with horrible stats and only has a decent speed, which leaves Smeargle for an useful mon outside of support the team.

opinionless/ not enough experience

Volbeat --> Stay

Volbeat is the best ZU weather setter and it suits well in the C+ list. Thanks to Prankster, Defog, Encore, Thunder Wave, U-turn, Roost and weather moves, Volbeat is the best weather support. Weather is a decent option in the current offensive meta. Sun and Rain do well against an offensive team and Volbeat is almost always part of it. Volbeat can switch out easily with U-Turn and it has decent stats, thanks to U-Turn Volbeat can be used multiple times to set up weather. Volbeat doesn’t do well against Stealth Rock setters, like Golem and Crustle tho. Volbeat can also be taken out easily with its bad typing, but Volbeat still makes up for a good C+ Pokemon.

Well that are my C+ clean ups. I hope this gave you more information and it can maybe spark some discussion later.

Thanks for reading

Tuthur · Apr 20, 2019

Like the previous posts, I'll write my thoughts on every C+ ranks.

: Arbok is a very underrated sweeper which can bypass its most common counter, Golem and Bronzor, with the proper Z-move (Z-Aqua Tail and Z-Sucker Punch). It also brings defensive utility since it removes T-Spikes and threatens Mareanie with Earthquake (also notice that Sludge Bomb/Knock Off Mareanie can't touch it), serves as a fighting swich-in (not as relevant as in previous meta but still), and a check to Shiftry. It also has access to the broken Glare. STAY

: Armaldo faces a lot of competition from higher ranked Pokemon. Sandslash is a better Spinner because of better typing and Crustle is a better Rock-Bug type thanks to Spikes and Shell Smash. Rain is irrelevant in the current metagame so I won't write about Swift Swim's sets. DROP Armaldo due to it being a very niche pick in the current metagame.

: I first didn't want Basculin to drop, but it's hard to justify using Basculin over Floatzel or Swanna. While Basculin hits harder, the other two are far more unpredictable. Floatzel is harder to revenge kill and can run Special like Physical sets whereas Basculin is forced to run physical due to its reliance on Aqua Jet. Swanna is as fast as Basculin but has unresisted STAB combination, brings utility in fighting checks and defog, and can just like Floatzel run physical like special sets. DROP Basculin for it being hard to justify over 2 top tiers that are overall better.

: Hail is a niche, but viable archetype, as Ho3nn showed, and Beartic is its best abuser. Beartic despite being an Ice-type isn't easy to knock out and can very easy gets a Swords Dance under hail and walk through your team due to how powerfull it is. STAY

: Bibarel is one of the biggest threats to balance team with Toucannon, Marowak and Rampardos because of how it hits hard after one Swords Dance. Although it isn't threatening before a Swords Dance, it can easily get one against common defensive staple in Mawile, Bronzor and Mareanie, and against a lot more under Screens. Moreover Tangela's departure oppened the door to new defensive grass-types like Shiinotic, Quilladin and Bellossom which falls to +4 Frustration. STAY

: A lot of the previous post showed calcs arguing Cacturne not drop due to it's strong Sucker Punches. However the real question when talking about Cacturne is why using it when you can run Shiftry ? Shiftry has less raw power, but thanks to its better bulk it can easily get one SD, it also has access to Knock Off, Leaf Storm and Hurricane which let's it far harder to switch into. Cacturne's niche over Shiftry is water-immunity (not that good when the two most commons Water-types (Swanna and Floatzel) non-Water-type offensive moves all OHKOes Cacturne, and Spikes. Spikes is a very valluable move in ZU, however Cacturne struggles against the most common hazard removers, aka the Silvallies. Silvally-Ghost departure means that now Cacturne can't do significant damage to the most commons Defoggers. It also struggles against Defog Shiftry and Swanna if Stealth Rock aren't up. DROP Cacturne for being to hard to justify over Shiftry.

: I have used Ditto recently and it's good. In a so offensive meta with so much offensive sweeper it's always valuable to have a Pokemon that can prevents these set up. It's also very valuable against Mareanie's team, copying Regenerator and setting up T-Spikes. It also has virtualy infinite PP making it a pain to deal with for stall-teams. I'd rather argue it to rise before drop. STAY or RISE.

: Never seen or used.

: Screens are a viable archetype and Electrode is the face of screens. STAY

: I don't have anything to add to previous posts. STAY

: Unlike Beartic, Glaceon isn't even good paired with Abomasnow and its Specs set is outclassed by Abomasnow. Not talking about Z-Celebrate which is extremely underwhelming. DROP

: Rain is a dead playstyle, so is Golduck. Sorry BP... DROP

: Huntail is a beast to deal with. It can easily set up due to its excellent Defense stats and/or Screens support. It's a pain to deal with because after one Shell Smash it can OHKO Scarf Vire, Swanna and Dash with LO Sucker Punch. STAY

: I don't have anything to add to previous posts. DROP

: Never seen or used.

: I used Lycanroc-M and it's a weird Pokemon. It looks like outclassed by Golem and Crustle. Altough it's true that they brings better defensive utility than Lycanroc due to better defensive stats, and although they can be more threatening thanks to secondary STAB and Shell Smash in Crustle's case, Lycanroc superior speed tier and signature z-move gives it a niche over them. Swords Dance Lycanroc-M tears through defensive teams and Rock Polish is very difficult to deal with offensive teams. I can see this STAY like DROP, but I lean more toward drop due to Golem's and Machoke growing popularity.

: Masquerain is imo the best Web setter due to the offensive pressure it brings with Quiver Dance. Water/Flying combination is unresisted and allows Masquerain to threaten every hazard remover unlike Shuckle, Smeargle and Leavanny which have problem with some defogger. STAY

: Meowstic is outclassed by Electrode for Screens. The ranking should reflect this. DROP

: A real pain for offensive teams thanks to divine speed tier and Speed Boost letting it outspeed Scarfers. However it dislikes Shiftry popularity with its powerfull Sucker Punches. Avalugg's and Furfrou's rises in popularity also hurts a lot Ninjask. DROP

: I don't have anything to add to previous posts. DROP

: I don't have anything to add to previous posts. DROP

: Regigigas is imo the worst C+ Pokemon. It's outclassed in every way by other Pokemon. Regigigas is supposed to be a stallbreaker, but once was the last time your stall team lost to Regi? Stall has a lot of tools to deal with Regigigas between Pyukumuku, Roar Avalugg, Dusclops and Furfrou. And against other playstyle Regi has almost no set up opportunity. Moreover Mawile's and Machoke's rise in popularity hurts it a lot. There is no reason to run Regigigas over Swords Dance Toxic Bouffalant or Toxic Taunt Vigoroth. DROP or even UNRANK.

: This Pokemon Head Smash are no joke, even without Choice Band. It might be hurt by Mawile's, Shiftry's and Machoke's rise in popularity but Reli has just always been very underrated, it's a very hard Pokemon to OHKO that can at least 2HKO everything that doesn't resist Rock without even needing Choice Band. STAY

: Webs are a niche archetype and Shuckle is the worst web setter. It loses to every hazard remover and has 0 offensive presence. It can't count the number of time I lead with a Pokemon carrying Substitute and knocked 2/3 Pokemon out with it, because my opponent led Shuckle and didn't think about Substitute and was unable to deal any kind of damage to my Pokemon. Also if you want a defensive Rock-Bug type with hazards, just use Crustle which has offensive presence and has Spikes which are atm better than Webs. DROP

(electric): I have never used it, but each time I faces it, it put some works. BoltBeam is very hard to switch into if you don't have a bulky normal-type or Bronzor, which are all easily abused thanks to U-turn. It also checks what are to me the 2 best Pokemon in the tier in Swanna and Shiftry. STAY

(grass): Silvally-Grass is a very potent Defoger that can beat most hazard setters. However it lets imo to much very threatening Pokemon come for free on it like Rapidash, Combusken and Simisear, and depending on its coverage move, also Hakamoo, Fraxure or Abomasnow and Pinsir. It also faces a lot of competition from Jumpluff which has a better Speed tier, reliable recovery and Encore/Sleep Powder. DROP

(poison): I haven't seen or used it recently.

: I don't have anything to add to previous posts. STAY

: Vibrava is one of the most underrated Defogger imo. It beats all of the most common bar Bronzor at the cost of the Knock Off/Toxic. It's also one of the best Golem check and the best one if you don't want to use something as passive as Bronzor. STAY

: Rain is a dead playstyle, so is Volbeat.DROP

Thanks for reading.

PokeBilly1011 · Apr 25, 2019

Wormadam-Trash C --> UU/UR
Ok look at who we got here its Wormadam-Trash. Now why is it in the rankings if it has the name trash in it. Ok i had to make that joke... ok moving on.Alright so its only really good for two thing and thats for setting up rocks and poisoning people with toxic. Also its pretty Special Defensive to but most mons can kill it easily. I mean no one really uses it because people usually use other rockers like Golem and Crustle. The toxic part people usually use stall mons for that like Pyukumuku, Lickilicky, Altaria and more. I mean it could work for stall teams but people usually do better plays with other stall mons anyway. Now I dont use stall that much but I know for a fact there are better stall mons but im pretty sure they are, considering Altaria and Lickilicky are bulky.

Chinchou C- --> UR
Alright so how is chinchou even in the ranks. Chinchou is only really good for a Swanna check and somewhat being bulky thats about it.
I mean there are so many mons that replace Chinchou like Electivire. Electivire pretty much replaces it because its one of the best if not the best Swanna counters in the tier. Also theres other better electric types on the tier thats more useable like Rotom-fan, Raichu and even Electivire.
Now it also has the water type but again there are better water types and more useable water types like Swanna, Floatzel and Silvally-Water.
Also Chinchou is good for being bulky but again theres other bulkier mons that replaces it like Golem is pretty bulky Shinotiic and even machoke (the list goes on).Now i know the rankings it most about how well mons can do plays but again it really doesnt do good plays like i said before alot of mons replaces Chinchou. An example would be Swanna. Even tho they have different roles Swanna is better for attacking with water type moves and it gets ride of rock. Chinchou cant do that. Now Electivire/Raichu are better scarfer because Electivire speed when it has scarf and the nature Naive it has 475 speed and when Raichu runs scarf with the nature Timid its speed is 525 but only some Raichus run scarf most run life orb but you get my point lol.

Now if your curious on way i did these 2 mons is because i think they shouldnt really be ranked. Again dont get offend its opinon. I never seen anyone use Wormadam Trash at all same with Chinchou. So if there are mons in the rankings that arent used well (meaning they do terrible) or arent used as much (somewhat bad but decent) then why are they even in the C+/C ranking. Now there are alot of talk about the Cs so i think this kinda adds to it just a little. Now again i do try my best to write my opipons but mons that arent really used or dont do good plays, its kinda hard to do that lol. Know i think C mons should be set kinda like this. C+ mons that arent quite a B- but they do decent in the C Rank (Like Arbok is sn example not a B- but good for C+). C is mons that should be somewhat decent a little bad tho but not bad to be a C- (Like Flareon for an example it has alot of weaknesses but its good for a C). Now C- is pretty much the lowest rank but if u count D rank then its the second least. C- should be mons that arent like terrible but there bad. When i mean terrible i mean they shouldnt be ranked like Chinchou. When i mean bad i mean they shouldnt be higher but they could be a C-. Like Slaking its a bad mon but not terrible it could do somewhat ok depending on how you use it.

Here are some of the other rankings i agree on
Drops
Politoed C --> C-
Glaceon C+ --> C
Silvally-Electric C+ -> C/C-
Volbeat C+ --> C
Meowstic-M C+ --> C
Noctowl B- --> C/C-
Quilladin C+ --> C

I hope you guys got what i said and thank you for reading :).

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d · May 10, 2019

I’d like to talk about Gourg-small with its niche as a fast spinblocker for webs/offensive tspikes/spikes.

Currently its C- rank, but after my testing with it and the lack of Silv-Ghost i think it should fit for C+ or C. It's faster than all the 95 mons and swanna! Pretty fast and its seed bomb / wisp combo is great. Theres also sneak and explosion to get a kill on say like Kom or some walls, also prevents defogs. On webs its amazing as a spinblocker of course and with the -speed and colbur u can wisp / seed so many threats like swanna, vire, shift, golem, pinsir, komm, and even Z combusk takes like 40% to seed bomb

Replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-906706636
Gourg makes a great pivot into Silv-Water and outspeeds for the Seed Bomb KO. Kadabra cant 1HKO with Shadow Ball but our Sneak threatens the faster 2hko. It's Ground/Elect/Water/Fighting resistances / immunity means it switches into a lot and gets something off.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-903362522
With webs up, it secures a burn on the scarf Pinsir and provides a great Golem switch in for later. Explosion could have took Muk down with it but it instead put the switch in, Golem, into Iron Head range from Pawn.

Currently i believe its C- as a Z Trick or Treat user, but its so much more viable as a faster offensive switch in and spin blocker.

PasshoPie · May 12, 2019

PokeBilly1011 said:
Chinchou C- --> UR
Alright so how is chinchou even in the ranks. Chinchou is only really good for a Swanna check and somewhat being bulky thats about it.
I mean there are so many mons that replace Chinchou like Electivire. Electivire pretty much replaces it because its one of the best if not the best Swanna counters in the tier. Also theres other better electric types on the tier thats more useable like Rotom-fan, Raichu and even Electivire.
Now it also has the water type but again there are better water types and more useable water types like Swanna, Floatzel and Silvally-Water.
Also Chinchou is good for being bulky but again theres other bulkier mons that replaces it like Golem is pretty bulky Shinotiic and even machoke (the list goes on).Now i know the rankings it most about how well mons can do plays but again it really doesnt do good plays like i said before alot of mons replaces Chinchou. An example would be Swanna. Even tho they have different roles Swanna is better for attacking with water type moves and it gets ride of rock. Chinchou cant do that. Now Electivire/Raichu are better scarfer because Electivire speed when it has scarf and the nature Naive it has 475 speed and when Raichu runs scarf with the nature Timid its speed is 525 but only some Raichus run scarf most run life orb but you get my point lol.

(First, sorry for my english)

Honestly, i disagree with what you said about Chinchou. I won't said it is good at the moment (really not), just I think you don't understand the niche of Chinchou. It's just a mon usable in Stall, and when the meta is good for him, in balance. Chinchou can stop efficiently water and electric spam, and keep the momentum with voltswitch. It's all. And it deserve a C- because it is usable and good against specific threat (but at the moment it can't really shine). It was even played (and was pretty good) in PU next gen.

You cant compared offensive and defensive mon because they have a type in common, it's a no sense.

No, Chinchou can't run Scarf/Spec/Lo/anything offensive like swanna or Electivire and spam attack.
Pyumuku, Carbink, Bronzor, Mareanie, can't too, but they are good.
You don't include Chinchou because it's a electric or water type, you include it because your team suffer of water electric spam (but not really the case in the meta)

The Goomy · May 16, 2019

I really just wanted to hop in and mention a really underappreciated Pokemon:

Gloom: UR ----> B

Gloom @ Eviolite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Growth

In the past week I've played approximately 75 games on the ladder (as a completely new player to ZU) with a team with Gloom on it and have been in the mid to high 1400s.

Gloom does an good job of countering top threats in the meta like Scarf Electivire, Gourgeist, Silvally-Fighting (Dragon, Water), Special Floatzel, Raichu, Servine, Bellossom. In addition it can check threats such as Shiftry, Golem, and others.

This set was designed as a parallel to the current NU Vileplume set, which has been dominating NUPL. Essentially the special bulk (particularly with Eviolite) allows Gloom to shine as an answer to top special threats: electrics, grasses, waters. But, Strength Sap gives Gloom a huge amount of longevity. Due to the nature of ZU, Gloom is a Pokemon that only has 60 base HP, so Strength Sap gets back a huge % of your total HP almost every time you use it. The exceptions are things like Bronzor and Mareanie. Growth allows Gloom to put a lot of pressure on teams because it forces many switches with Strength Sap and can act as a late game win-condition.

Here are some replays that highlight the impact Gloom can have:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-909451117
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-909259839
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-909569131

All in all, I think that Gloom definitely deserves more recognition, a place in the VR rankings (B is where I see it fitting, but feel free to discuss), and some more testing by players with more experience in the ZU community.

Signed,

-The Gloomy

Sputnik · May 17, 2019

The Goomy said:
I really just wanted to hop in and mention a really underappreciated Pokemon:

Gloom: UR ----> B

Gloom @ Eviolite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Growth

In the past week I've played approximately 75 games on the ladder (as a completely new player to ZU) with a team with Gloom on it and have been in the mid to high 1400s.

Gloom does an good job of countering top threats in the meta like Scarf Electivire, Gourgeist, Silvally-Fighting (Dragon, Water), Special Floatzel, Raichu, Servine, Bellossom. In addition it can check threats such as Shiftry, Golem, and others.

This set was designed as a parallel to the current NU Vileplume set, which has been dominating NUPL. Essentially the special bulk (particularly with Eviolite) allows Gloom to shine as an answer to top special threats: electrics, grasses, waters. But, Strength Sap gives Gloom a huge amount of longevity. Due to the nature of ZU, Gloom is a Pokemon that only has 60 base HP, so Strength Sap gets back a huge % of your total HP almost every time you use it. The exceptions are things like Bronzor and Mareanie. Growth allows Gloom to put a lot of pressure on teams because it forces many switches with Strength Sap and can act as a late game win-condition.

Here are some replays that highlight the impact Gloom can have:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-909451117
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-909259839
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-909569131

All in all, I think that Gloom definitely deserves more recognition, a place in the VR rankings (B is where I see it fitting, but feel free to discuss), and some more testing by players with more experience in the ZU community.

Signed,

-The Gloomy

I seriously get what you are saying here, and you give a very good argument for Gloom having a niche...but I'm not so sure that it deserves a rank quite up in B.

The main reason is just the existence of Shiinotic, who has multiple advantages over Gloom. Shiinotic isn't super vulnerable to the ever present Knock Off, which Gloom really doesn't appreciate. It has the same advantages of Strength Sap, and has an arguably better typing that gives it a resistance to Earthquake and allows it access to a very useful STAB move in Moonblast.

Most importantly, Shiinotic has Spore, which in my opinion is more than enough to vault it over Gloom.

I'm not saying that Gloom doesn't have a niche. Far from it, you make a good argument and I could see it having a solid place in the C ranks. But as of right now you are recommending putting it over Shiinotic, which I personally don't believe is the correct place for it.

Xayah · May 17, 2019

The Goomy said:
I really just wanted to hop in and mention a really underappreciated Pokemon:

Gloom: UR ----> B

Gloom @ Eviolite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strength Sap
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Growth

In the past week I've played approximately 75 games on the ladder (as a completely new player to ZU) with a team with Gloom on it and have been in the mid to high 1400s.

Gloom does an good job of countering top threats in the meta like Scarf Electivire, Gourgeist, Silvally-Fighting (Dragon, Water), Special Floatzel, Raichu, Servine, Bellossom. In addition it can check threats such as Shiftry, Golem, and others.

This set was designed as a parallel to the current NU Vileplume set, which has been dominating NUPL. Essentially the special bulk (particularly with Eviolite) allows Gloom to shine as an answer to top special threats: electrics, grasses, waters. But, Strength Sap gives Gloom a huge amount of longevity. Due to the nature of ZU, Gloom is a Pokemon that only has 60 base HP, so Strength Sap gets back a huge % of your total HP almost every time you use it. The exceptions are things like Bronzor and Mareanie. Growth allows Gloom to put a lot of pressure on teams because it forces many switches with Strength Sap and can act as a late game win-condition.

Here are some replays that highlight the impact Gloom can have:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-909451117
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-909259839
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-909569131

All in all, I think that Gloom definitely deserves more recognition, a place in the VR rankings (B is where I see it fitting, but feel free to discuss), and some more testing by players with more experience in the ZU community.

Signed,

-The Gloomy

I'm gonna go a step further than Sputnik and say Gloom should not be ranked at all because there is no real reason to use it. Let's take a look at your main argument for ranking it:

Gloom does an good job of countering top threats in the meta like Scarf Electivire, Gourgeist, Silvally-Fighting (Dragon, Water), Special Floatzel, Raichu, Servine, Bellossom. In addition it can check threats such as Shiftry, Golem, and others.

Now, fun fact, outside of Servine and maybe Bellossom, neither of which are very relevant, Shiinotic actually answers all of these too, while having access to Spore, a better typing, actually managing to damage the likes of Silvally-Fighting and Machoke, access to Leftovers, avoiding the 2HKO from Scarf EVire after rocks thanks to Lefties (if physdef), and, and this one is important, hard countering Shiftry, which is one of the best Pokemon in the meta right now. So basically, your reason for Gloom > Shiinotic is that you value checking Servine/Bellossom higher than countering Shiftry, which I heavily disagree with.

Now, on Discord, Broken Phobias told me that the reason to use Gloom is sweeping potential with Growth, which on its own is very shaky, but Shiinotic also gets Growth and has higher base SpA in addition to all of its other advantages, so if you really want a Growth fat Grass, just run Strength Sap/Growth/Giga Drain/Moonblast Shiinotic. No Spore, but it's not like Gloom has that.

Overall, Shiinotic completely outclasses Gloom and is only actually ranked at B- (though it could go higher imo). There is never a reason to use Gloom and therefor I am against ranking it at this time. You may have had a case if Tangela had still been here because of how easily Gloom beats it, but even then I'd have said no most likely.

underwhellming · May 26, 2019

Hey guys, I've been playing ZU for a few months now and for my first smogon post I'd like to nominate Silvally-Electric C+ --> B-

Silvally-Electric @ Electric Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Defog
- U-turn / Parting Shot

Silvally-Electric is a surprisingly good anti-meta pivot which takes advantage of bolt-beam coverage. Elecvally serves as a fantastic check to Swanna, taking hits from both physical and special sets with ease and OHKOing back with Thunderbolt. Even a rain-boosted surf only 2HKOs Silvally-Electric 25% of the time, and that can be improved through SpD investment. It also checks threats like specs Chatot, bulk up Floatzel, Rotom-Fan, and Toucannon. It can also serve as an emergency check to Shiftry since it only takes 52% at most from Shiftry's attacks and OHKOs with U-Turn. Using Flamethrower instead of Defog allows Elecvally to check mixed Abomasnow as well. Elecvally can also trade speed for defensive stats depending on what it needs to check, increasing its already good bulk. The set I provided above is just what I came up with.

Silvally-Electric, unlike its competitor Silvally-Water, enjoys a lot of the meta shifts which have happened over the past month. Elecvally deals with Shiftry more easily, and forces Electivire into clicking Earthquake. It also deals with the rising threat of Rotom-Fan. Silvally-Electric makes a good partner for Shiftry, who can benefit from potential Golem switchins.

However, Silvally-Electric can sometimes struggle with the amount of Electric immunities in the tier. It also doesn't check as wide an array of threats as Silvally-Water or Silvally-Fighting. Despite these issues, I was surprised by how well it performed when I playtested it and I think it's a cut above the rest of C+. With some refinement I could even see it being worthy of B.

Special:
252 SpA Swanna Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Electric: 72-84 (18.2 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Swanna Supersonic Skystrike (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Electric: 120-141 (30.4 - 35.7%) -- 41.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Swanna Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Electric in Rain: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Electric: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Electric: 282-333 (71.5 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Rotom-Fan Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Electric: 55-66 (13.9 - 16.7%) -- possible 6HKO
0 SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Silvally-Electric: 115-136 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 6.5% chance to 3HKO
Physical:
252 Atk Swanna Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Silvally-Electric: 76-90 (19.2 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Swanna Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Silvally-Electric: 119-141 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 36.3% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Swanna Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Silvally-Electric: 108-127 (27.4 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Silvally-Electric: 129-152 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- 98.3% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Floatzel Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Silvally-Electric: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Toucannon Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Silvally-Electric: 154-182 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 28 Def Silvally-Electric: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Moron5 · May 26, 2019

Silvally Electric doesn’t really do much that Silvally Dragon can’t (the most comparable form imo). While doesn’t it doesn’t resist flying, it resists water so it suffers less from the Z rain dance set (imo the most threatening Swanna set). That’s coupled with the fact Silvally-E has a much weaker stab compared to Draco and loses the ability to check Rapidash/Simisear. Not only that but using Silvally-E means you probably aren’t running scarf evire (best scarfer)/other good electrics or a better silvally. The best niche Silvally-E has in this meta imo is the ability to threaten and force out mareanie. I’ve built Silvally-E in the past and in order to use it in its fullest potential where it fills the role that Water & Dragon can’t is extremely specific. No rise maybe drop bc legitimately outclassed 9/10 times.

Mawile should def rise to B+/A- from my exp with the zu ssnl and seeing what other ppl bring. Mawile is probably the second best or third best choice for a rocker on balance, bulky offense, and some stalls and it’s ranking should reflect that. It’s the most customizable rocker Ive seen in the zu ssnl knock off rise really hard, super fang, taunt for gourg/opposing rocker, protox to annoy defoggers, and even SD which I think is hard to switch into for some builds. It does have a bit of trouble with the occasional steel trap build but those are really matchup based for the most part.

Sputnik · May 30, 2019

I'd like to talk about a couple of mons that are currently in the B- ranking, as their are a few that I currently feel are slightly misplaced.

Dusknoir: B- ---> C+

Don't get me wrong, this is a very cool mon. But it's just really not in a good place right now. It's got some nice stats, but it doesn't have the tools to take advantage of them. It's got the tools to play a decent defensive role, which would be great except Dusclops exists and completely outclasses it because it can hold Eviolite. You could also feasibly run a sort of bulky Choice Band set, but it doesn't get the tools to take advantage of that either and is outclassed by many other band users. The things strongest move is Earthquake because its STAB is so bad, for crying out loud. I suppose if you wanted to spinblock and run a band in the same slot then it could feasibly have a use, but that's risky because Komala and Sandslash frequently run Knock Off, and there is no world where this thing is getting past Avalugg (Outside of Tricking its CB onto it, which is definitely an option, albeit not a good enough one to justify running it). One thing it can do is work as an absolutely excellent Trick Room setter with its Memento and Will-o-Wisp shenanigans, but that's a very small niche and the viability of Trick Room is generally in question anyway. Overall this thing is not good at all right now unless you are running Trick Room, and I don't think that that is enough to justify it staying in B-.

Shiinotic: B- ---> B

Shiinotic has been somewhat rising in prominence lately, and for good reason. It's got some excellent bulk and all the tools needed to take advantage of said bulk. It's typing allows it to terrify any Shiftry not running Hurricane, and these days Shiftry is often a teams only Spore switch in, so this is invaluable. The combination of Spore+Strength Sap is an incredibly good and irritating one, and can feasibly allow you to take the battle in any direction you want now that the opponents physical sweeper has been crippled beyond belief. It also checks Scarf Evire and can handle Band Golem with Strength Sap. Leech Seed (and potentially Protect and Toxic as well) top off what is in my opinion a mon that is in a very good spot right now. It's got problems of course; Swanna being absolutely everywhere is a problem, and it struggles against other top tier attackers such as Abomasnow and Muk. It's typing also leaves it vulnerable to several common attacks. However, Shiinotic's niche is growing by the day, and I think that its defensive utility is enough to land it a solid spot in the B ranking.

The Goomy · Jun 4, 2019

UR ---> Ranked Somewhere

Palpitoad @

| Water Absorb

Bold | 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpDef

Stealth Rock
Scald
Earth Power
Toxic

Palpitoad is currently the premier switch in to Electivire in the tier as they *rarely* run HP Grass. It is also able to take on other threats with its bulk.
Peaked #1 and over 1600 ELO using exclusively a team with Palpitoad from 1300s up. honchkrow also peaked #1 with this team and sits at #2 currently.

Read the RMT if you want more detailed info as I've already been typing for 3 hours now: Link to RMT

underwhellming · Jun 8, 2019

A lot of people have pointed out the lower rungs of the VR are pretty packed right now, and I think half of the problem is caused by a lot of mons being higher than they should be. Here are the worst offenders I've noticed thus far, along with my suggestions on where to move them. Some of what I'm saying will be retreads of what people have argued further up the thread, so huge thanks to everyone who has been taking the time to try and sort out the lower tiers over the past couple months.

Glaceon --> C/C-: Leafeon does Z-Celebrate far better by being able to switch in much easier, and imo Specs Glaceon is usually useless compared to other users. Glaceon has its uses, but all of them are overshadowed by mons up and down the VR. If you really want an Ice-type with a good special movepool, just use Regice instead and get all that extra bulk as a bonus.

Huntail --> C: I kind of like the niche Huntail fills, but it just doesn't fill that niche well enough to belong in C+. The biggest issue is that LO Nasty Plot Simipour does almost everything Huntail does but better, and is much more useful pre-boost. Between Simipour, Swanna, Floatzel, and Basculin, competition between Water-type attackers is fierce, and Huntail needs far more support than those four to do anything. Honestly I would be fine with keeping this at C+ if anyone ever used it, but Huntail even struggles to find a spot on Rain, where Swift Swim can fix the problem of its awful speed. While usage certainly isn't everything, I think that it's always concerning when a mon isn't even seeing play on the archetype it was meant for.

Lapras --> C: Trapper Lapras isn't that bad in my opinion, but its usefulness is limited enough that I wouldn't use that to justify keeping it C+. Specs Lapras is just worse than pretty much any other Water-type specs user, and its secondary Ice typing ends up hurting it a lot more than it helps. Lapras doesn't have as many glaring flaws as some other mons on this list, but its base usefulness is more in line with C than C+.

Leavanny --> UU/Unrank: Half the reason I made this post is because I'm tired of seeing Leavanny in C+. This thing is garbage, to the point where there are 3 better webs setters just in the C+ ranking. Admittedly, its stats might be good enough to justify putting it in C/C- but I really think this mon just fails on so many levels that it should be left off the visible VR to reflect that.

Meowstic-M --> C: Meowstic isn't the worst thing ever, Electrode is just a way better screen setter in the vast majority of scenarios. Switching something in via Volt Switch or Explosion opens up way more doors for a Hyper Offense team than hard switching. I've built a couple Screens HO teams since I started playing this tier and I can't say I've ever felt like using Meowstic. Besides, C+ has way too many mons whose sole purpose in life is to perform a very specific setup so it's about time we drop some of the weak ones.

Silvally-Grass --> C-: Not running one of the top Silvally forms is hard to justify, and Silvally-Grass doesn't really stand out enough to warrant a spot on a team over its brothers. Even if that weren't a factor, why would you use this over Simisage or Shiftry? It's a jack of all trades, but does none of them well, and certainly not better than the more used Silvallys.

Flareon --> UU: Despite Flareon's pretty decent attack stat, there's really no reason to use something with such an abysmal speed tier when Rapidash exists. Stuff like Physical Combusken and Monferno blow Flareon out of the water in terms of wallbreaking ability, and unlike Flareon actually have the potential to mix up their sets.

Politoed --> UU/Unrank: The set provided on the VR (unless I'm missing something) is just a strictly worse Lapras, and Lapras isn't even that good. I've seen people pull out crazy sets on Politoed, but as far as I'm aware there's nothing new that would justify keeping it in C, or even C-.

~~Munchlax --> Unrank:~~ I have no idea how this set snuck onto the VR. If you want to run a Rest+Talk set with body slam, Lickilicky is better in every single stat, is immune to taunt thanks to Oblivious, and can run leftovers instead of relying on eviolite. Unless there's some other hidden set which Munchlax uses, there is no possible reason to run it over the Licky boi. Oh, and Rest+Talk Lickilicky is incredibly rare in its own right, so this should never see the light of day. Realized a day later I forgot to calculate the Eviolite boosts. Still think this is worse, but that was a mistake on my part.

Silvally-Fire --> C-/UU: I have a soft spot in my heart for Silvally-Fire, but unfortunately it just isn't good. Yeah it can check Shiftry pretty effectively, and there's a few different ways you can play it, but its weaknesses just kill it. A defogger being weak to rocks is almost never a good sign, and Silvally-F fails to do enough to overcome that hurdle. Water and Ground are two of the most common attacking types in this meta, so being weak to them also isn't a good look. There just isn't a place for Firevally in the tier right now.

Trevenant --> C-: I'm convinced I've never seen the same Trevenant set twice, and also that none of them are good. Just going by the set provided on the VR, I really don't think it's as good as the mons around it. Even though there's some room for an attacking Ghost type in the tier now that Silvally-Ghost is gone, I still think having Trev at C is overselling it. Its movepool is terrible, its speed is atrocious, and pretty much anything teams are already running to check Shiftry also checks Trev. Switcheroo is cute, but why would you run it on something so slow?

Solrock --> UU/Unrank: Being a rocker with recovery would be cool if Cradily didn't do it way better. This thing's typing is too bad to be a defensive rocker, and its movepool is too bad to be an offensive rocker. Oh, and Bronzor is strictly better in 99.9% of scenarios.

Dusknoir --> C+: Agree. Dusknoir is kind of like Volbeat in the sense that its only viable role is setting up for other mons, so it makes sense that they'd be at the same rank.
Shiinotic --> B: Agree. Nothing to add, Shiino is just a monster.
Palpitoad --> Somewhere: Agree. Seems like a natural fit for the lower C tiers.

5gen · Jun 9, 2019

Hey all, it's update time. This time around, Durza, Xayah, and RawMelon abstained from voting due to business irl/other priorities and so we had Funbot28 fill in as rotational council. Thank you so much for your input. We also voted on the whole VR in a Google Docs format rather than the regular sheets, so this post will include explanations of the VR changes rather than the voting slate itself.

A+ to S

Shiftry and Swanna are two major forces in the current metagame. Shiftry is an incredibly consistent wallbreaker with the ability fit on a multitude of teams and is a leading threat in the metagame. Shiftry dictates numerous metagame trends such as the fall of Bronzor and Bulk Up Komala and the rise of Pokemon such as Combusken, Mawile, and Granbull through its sheer effectiveness and splashability. Furthermore, its vulnerability to faster threats, U-turn, and common weaknesses are relatively easy to cover because of how much pairs well with Shiftry.

On the other hand, Swanna has been a rising threat in the ZU metagame for a while now because of its splashability and consistency across each of its sets. Swanna is arguably the premier offensive Defogger and is also among the best breakers and sweepers in the tier thanks to the diverse Z-move slots it can run. In addition, Swanna is simply difficult to switch into and forces players to scout and carefully play around it. Similarly to Shiftry, Swanna centralizes the metagame around it as seen through the popularity of Mareanie, Scarf Electivire, and Silvally-Dragon.

A- to A

A- to B+

Bouffalant thrives in the current metagame both as a set up sweeper and stallbreaker. Its Sub SD set preys on common Pokemon such as Mareanie and Golem and the option of Toxic or EQ allows Bouff to pick and choose what checks it. For example, Toxic catches Gourgeist-XL and EQ hits Mawile. In addition, Sap Sipper and Bouffalant's exceptional bulk make it a viable pick from offense to balance, and its role compression is very useful in this offensive metagame.

Rotom-S simply outshines the rest of A- rank and its utility is difficult to compete with. Its Speed, bulk, and support movepool makes Rotom-S one of the best pivots in the current metagame as it able to soft check prominent threats such as Shiftry, Pinsir, Electivire, Swanna, and Gourgeist-XL. The sheer amount of support Rotom-S provides with its utility set as well as its ability to provide offensive support with Choice Scarf makes it worthy of A rank.

Vigoroth is noticeably less consistent in the current metagame because of how it is naturally pressured by current trends. For example, Toxic Spikes Mareanie, Specs Abomasnow, Shiftry, Silvally-Fighting, Mawile, etc. In addition, the choice of Taunt or Substitute is essential to Vigoroth's success in the current meta as both moves favor and hurt Vigoroth in certain matchups. For example, Substitute is much more useful against checks such as Shiinotic and Taunt is better for Mawile.

B+ to A-

Machoke thrives in the current meta because of its ability to blanket check numerous physical attacks from Shiftry to Golem to Pinsir. Its Rest-Talk set is what pushes Machoke above the rest of B+ because of its consistency on balance builds and its ability to wear down opposing teams with Knock Off+Dynamic Punch+outlasting foes thanks to Rest-Talk.

B+ to B

Chatot and Sawsbuck both face similar issues as offensive Normal-types. Chatot lacks consistency in the current metagame as it is very easy to pressure offensively and revenge kill due to its Speed tier and lack of bulk. By the same token, its breaking sets, Nasty Plot+Z-Encore and Specs, have limited coverage and are somewhat easy to check defensively. Overall, Chatot struggles to be effective in the current metagame and requires to much support to remain B+.

On the other hand, Sawsbuck faces stiff competition from Shiftry and Leafeon as a breaker and from Choice Scarf Silvally as a revenge killer. Furthermore, Sawsbuck has become less effective with the increased use of Silvally-Fighting, Mawile, and Gourgeist-XL to check Shiftry.

B to B+

All three of these Pokemon are on the rise because of Shiftry and the effect it has on the metagame. However, each of these Pokemon have notable uses outside of Shiftry.

Granbull is a good defensive blanket check to Pokemon such as Silvally-Fighting, Pinsir, and Kecleon. Conversely, it is a great breaker with Choice Band and is able to break down common defensive cores such as Bronzor+Mareanie with correct predictions. Mawile is a rising Stealth Rock user that is able to sustain itself with Pain Split and separates itself from other rockers with its utility in Knock Off, Taunt, and Super Fang. In addition, Mawile is able to check a plethora of Normal- and Grass-types and can even run SD offensive to decent success. Monferno provides strong utility thanks to its typing and Eviolite-boosted bulk as well as utility options in Slack Off, U-turn, Taunt, and even WoW. It's a more offensive check for the licks of Abomasnow, Shiftry, Komala, and Bouffalant.

B- to B

Fairly straightforward nom that has been discussed extensively in the thread. Great check to Shiftry and other physical attackers and has strong utility with Spore+Strength Sap.

B- to C+

Noctowl and Probopass have been trending down lately because of how outclassed they are. Noctowl fails to be effective in a metagame as fast paced as this and it relies on facing balance types builds that do not carry a dedicated check to special attackers, which is not really common. There are much better breakers such as Swanna and NP Chatot.

Golem-A largely makes Probopass' niche irrelevant. The main reasons to use Probopass in this metagame is for a rocker that can pivot and help teams check special attackers such as Specs Abomasnow, Chatot, and Kadabra.

C+ to B-

Beartic has been a force in the current metagame ever since Ho3n began spamming semi-hail on the ladder. While it relies on hail support from Abomasnow, that is all Beartic needs to be effective because its sheer breaking power is hard to match and even harder to switch into.

Drifblim is another Pokemon that outshines the rest of C+ due to its offensive capabilities both on entry hazard stack and breaker heavy offense. Substitute+Sitrus or Liechi Berry is a fearsome late-game and they allow Drifblim to play around revenge killers such as Choice Scarf Swanna and Elecitivre after an Unburden boost.

Electrode rises to B- because of the offensive support it brings to teams mainly through dual screens. Electrode's insanely high Speed and access to Taunt and Volt Switch make it the go-to screens setter in the tier and with the meta trending towards offense, Electivire carries the playstyle.

C+ to C

Here is where the C+ cleanup is most noticeable. We really took a look at the feedback in the thread and analyzed the niches of each Pokemon.

Bibarel drops to C because it is too inconsistent for the amount of support it requires. Even with screens or entry hazard stack support, Bibarel often lacks set up opportunities and leaves something to be desired in terms of power.

Glaceon and Lapras are pretty much inferior to Specs Abomasnow and their lack of coverage make them much less consistent than Specs Abomasnow. Moreover, Specs Lapras needs chip to muscle through bulky special walls such as Lickilicky and Muk and Specs Glaceon is especially easy to punish in the current metagame.

Masquerain and Meowstic-M face similar issues in that they are outclassed by Leavanny/Shuckle and screens Electrode. Leavanny is a noticeable better offensive option thanks to its STABs and Speed tier as well as its ability to threaten teams outside of Sticky Web. Conversely, Meowstic-M's lack of pivoting and pure Psychic typing leaves it inferor to Electrode and much easier to take advantage of from the likes of Shiftry.

Lastly, Vibrava drops to C because it is largely outclassed by other entry hazard removers such as Silvally-Ground and Sandlash and it invites in prominent breakers such as Swanna and Pinsir. Moreover, Vibrava only has U-turn to escape those foes and is often dead weight against other entry hazard setters such as Bronzor.

C to C-

Chimecho has been trending down lately with the popularity of Shiftry and CB Komala and is generally outclassed in any role it wants to perform.

C to C-

Trevenant fails to perform at a C rank level because of how prediction reliant CB sets are and how easy it is to pressure in the current metagame. Rising Pokemon such as Firium Rapidash, Mawile, Swanna, Shiftry, and Rotom-S give CB Trevenant a very difficult time and in general, CB Trevenant is inferior to other breakers.

Wormadam-T drops to C- because there is little reason to use it and how much support it requires to not be dead weight. Outside of checking select threats such as Abomasnow, Leafeon, Bellossom, Mr. Mime, etc, Wormadam-T's passiveness makes it very easy to take advantage of and limits it to more defensive builds.

C- to C

Refer to this post https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-zu-viability-rankings.3643412/post-8125557. In a nutshell, Gourgeist-S provides fantastic support for entry hazard stack and Sticky Web teams due to its Speed, Ghost typing, and decent power+Explosion+Wisp.

C- to UR

Chinchou dropping off the VR has been a longstanding debate and it finally drops off the map. While it checks Swanna who is now an S-rank. Chinchou is easily pressured in the current metagame and is an inferior option to nearly every common Water- and Electric-type check in the tier.

Solrock drops from C- to UR mainly due to competition from other Stealth Rock users such as Golem, a poor defensive typing, and passiveness. Even though Solrock is able to check things such as Golem and Rapidash, in general too many breakers force out Solrock or take advantage of its poor typing.

Discussion points:

Golem A+ to S
Combusken A to A+
Stuff from Usually Useless

SBPC · Jun 9, 2019

5gen said:
A+ to S

A+ to S

Finally.

Now let's move on to discussion points.
Golem: A+ > S Hard no.
I use golem a lot, and it's pretty damn splashable with it's good multitude of sets, along with a somewhat unanimous agreement on it being the best stealth rocker in the tier, but in my opinion this thing just doesn't mandate S rank, it's not causing several mons to rise like Shiftry, or threatening every team in existence like Swanna. It's powerful, and it's got a lot going for it, but to say its S rank is a bit of a stretch personally. Too many prominent meta pokemon can come in and give this thing horrendous amounts of trouble, and it's even got rising competition in Monferno and Mawile.

Combusken A > A+ Why hasn't this been done already? Agree for sure.

This chicken is an absolute monster of a threat, and its snowball potential is so great I've seen multiple players mandate checks just for it. It has sets for both physical and special attack as well, so from team preview you always has to take a guess as to what it's gonna do, with it's Z move boosted STABs being able to muscle through some checks as well. Please rise this thing.

i don't mess with UU rank at all so i can't comment on that.

275p · Jun 10, 2019

So in this post, I will talk about the Pokemon in the UU Rank
and decide who should stay and who shouldn`t.

Gothielle UU>UR

While Gothielle does have a good abillity with competitive, it is outclassed by other offensve psychic types like Mr.Mime and Kadabra, the former having a secondary typing and the ladder having a much higher SpA. Also both of them are in a very good Speed Tier, while Gothielle only has a Speed base stat of 65 which let`s it outspeed by a ton of different threats like Shiftry, Rapidash and Evire. Although Gothielle does have a good Spdef and passable Def stat, it is outclasssed as a bulky calm mind sweeper by Grumpig, who s actually able to heal himself due to glutony+ recycle, while also having a better Speed Tier.

Gourgeist UU>UR

Gourgeist is completely outclassed by it`s other formes by Super on the defensive side and on the offense by Small. Sure one could argue that the Z Halloween set is for Gourgeist the best, since it does have a higher attack stat then Gour Small. However Small outclasses it because it sits in a much better Speed Tier, being able to outspeed al the Silvally forms (Save for Scarfed Normalvally) and being able to Speed tie with Evire and Swanna.

Gumshoos UU>UR

Although it has a high attack stat, a nice movepool and two good abilities with Adaptability and Stakeout, it is unasble since it is very slow. As a choice band user, it is outclassed by Komala since it sits in a better Speed Tier and can also act as a Status Absorber, and as a TR abuser it is outclassed by Bouffalant which spots a way better bulk and also access to Sword Dance.

Lopunny UU> UR

Lopunny does have a decent Speed Tier and acces to the combination of Klutz and Switcheroo, being able to cripple pokemon like Bronzor or Mareanie. It also has a decent Speed Tier and acces to healing wish and encore. However it is very passive since it ´s attack is mediocre and also unable to switch items if the user has a Z Crystal or in Silvally`s case a Disc. As a healing wish user, Lopunny is outclassed by Mr. Mime who has a better typing while not being completely passive , due to it ´s good offensive stats. Even with heal bell, it is outclassed as a cleric by Lickilicky, who posseses far greater bulk and has acces to wish.

Lumineon UU> Stays

This may be a surprise to some, but I believe that Lumineon should stay in UU. It may be outclassed as a defogger by Silvally Water and Swanna, but unlike those two it is immune to water and in Swanna`s case doesn`t have a Stealth Rock weakness. It `s also able to Pivot out with U-turn something that Swanna lacks. It can also be used as a defogger if you run an offensive Vally. I do admit that these are not enough reason to use them over the two other options mentioned above, it is still not bad enough in my opinion to drop to UR.

Meowstic F UU> Stays

Now you may be wondering, why Meowstic F should stay as competitive user if Gothielle is going to be unranked. The main difference between these two is the Speed Tier. While Meowstic F is less bulky than Gothielle, being able to outspeed all the vallys and non scarfed Evire, Swanna and Shiftrty makes it a great pokemon to fit on Sticky Web Teams. Gothielle is simply outclassed by Meowstic as a competitive User, due to a better Speed Tier.

Seviper UU> UR

While Seviper does have good offensive stats, it has bad defenses, is really slow and depends on sucker Punch for priority. It is outclassed as amixed Attacker by Evire and Shiftry, who are both faster and as a coil user by Arbok who has intimidate and a slightly better Speed Tier.

Shedinja UU> UR

Shedinja is a mixed bag. On the one Hand, it is able to counter set up sweepers such as Raichu, Simipour, Bellosom and Butterfree lacking Air Slash. But being able to tank at least one super effective hit with Focus sash and being weak to hail, which started to rose to prominence due to the rise of Beartic, makes it really hard to Play and it requires a lot of Team support to work. it should also be noted that Shedinja is weak to ervery form of entry Hazard, which kills it instantly. For those reasons I listed above, there is no reason to use Shedinja over other bug types such as Pinsir or Crustle.

Silvally Ice UU > UR

I`m sorry J.
But there is no reason to use Silvally Ice over the likes of Beartic and Abomasnow, both of them having a better offensive pressence and both are able to hold an item, something that Vally Ice is not able to do. Having acces to Flamethrower, Surf and Thunderbolt is nice and all, but it is not enough to keep it ranked in UU.

Togetic UU> ?

I`m not really sure on Togetic. It is able to counter Shiftry, Kecleon lacking Thunder Punch and Machoke, having acces to Roost and Heal Bell. However it is very dependent on it`s eviolite and once it got knocked off, Things get way harder. It is usually also beaten by Evire or Golem and can only counter some Stealth rock users like Gabite. Overall though I believe that Togetic requires further testing before it gets unranked.

Celever · Jun 10, 2019

I'd like to appeal one shift that was just made that didn't have thread discussion beforehand, or at least start up a conversation about it, as well as speak on the discussion points, and make a couple of new nominations. Edit: Ran out of time but I plan to make a post later on with a couple of new nominations and the discussion points.

Probopass C+ --> B-
I agree that Probo's Magnet Pull niche is A) not particularly relevant since Silvally-Steel left (though the rise of Mawile could in theory make it more relevant) and B) done better by Alolem. However, I think Probo's specially defensive pivot set warrants B- by itself, partly because of this core, that can be seen on this team, one that I have had great success with. that I've termed Shiinopass. I'm not the best player and don't necessarily have the time to ladder, so I don't have a high ladder rating to demonstrate this core with, however I believe I ended a cycle of the ZU room leaderboard at the top using this team in roomtours, or at least held the first spot for a while before stopping playing. Shiinotic and Probopass have perfect defensive coverage, where Shiinotic resists all that Probopass is weak to and Probo most of what Shiinotic is, while taking Fire- and the rare Steel-Type attacks neutrally. The roles they fulfill work well together; Probo's Taunt can neuter defensive threats and force switches, and Shiinotic's Spore & Strength Sap achieves the same against more offensive threats. I think it would be worthwhile if people try out this core and see Probo's potential. Main threats are the Fire-Types (Rapidash, Monferno and Busken), Expert Belt Electivire, Floatzel, and Swanna in the late game.

Beyond just my own experiences with it though, Probo also possesses a significant niche that could warrant B- by itself in conjunction with its excellent bulk: it's a slow pivot. This role is extremely rare yet equally valuable in this meta in certain situations, and Probo's competition for the role is just CB Komala, Toucannon, and the niche Natu, Vullaby and Vibrava, all of which are 60-70 base Speed compared to Probo's 40. This gives Probo the niche of being the only defensive glue pivot that isn't crippled by Knock Off, while providing role compression by being both a Stealth Rock and Taunt user, giving it an important role against a variety of opposition builds.

Probo can create momentum out of some of the most meta-relevant Pokémon such as non-EQ Aboma, Chatot, non-EQ / choice locked Evire, Silvally-Dragon, non-Brick Beak Toucannon, and in a pinch Shiftry by tanking a Leaf Storm and pivoting to an answer while its special attack is dropped. It straight up counters ice-locked Aboma, Kadabra, Swanna (unless in rain), non-EQ Bouff, Muk, and Fairy-Type Pokémon besides Mawile (Mime (without FB) / Granbull / Shiinotic / Carbink). It also beats all the normal defensive mons that Taunt beats (Pyuku, Shiinotic etc.). Importantly also, the most common Ground-Type, Golem, takes 65-75% from Flash Cannon, forming a large opportunity cost out of exposing its 4x weakness and blocking its Volt Switch.

On the other hand, its most meta-relevant answers are EQ Komala, Pinsir, EQ Bouff, EQ Aboma, EQ Crustle (takes 60-70% from FC), Golem (takes 65-75%), Kecleon, High Horsepower Rapidash, Silvally-Fighting. FB Mr. Mime (takes 52-63%), Licki, HP Fighting Beheeyem, FB / FIghtinium-Z Focus Point Floatzel, FB / Superpower Simisear, Monferno, EQ Granbull, Camerupt, Gabite, Alolem, Sandslash, and Sawsbuck. Essentially, just anything that carries Ground- or Fighting-Type coverage, which can usually be identified in team preview.

Because of all of this, I really think that defensive pivot Probo is a league above the other Pokémon in C+ and deserves to return to B-. It's not meta-defining by any means, but the niche of being the best defensive slow pivot in the tier, role compression of Rocks, Taunt and pivot, and the scarcity of good Steel-Type Pokémon is enough for B-.

PsychLantern · Jun 11, 2019

Hey there! I'm not that high on the rankings, but I was toying around and found a Poke that may be able to fit ZU.
Charjabug (Unranked -> Somewhere):
Yes, it may be a pupa Pokémon but it's outstanding compared to the rest of them. Here's how:

Item:

Eviolite
Ability: Battery
-Magnet Rise
-Toxic
-Rest
-X-Scissor/Crunch
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Def
While not having any recovery aside from Rest, being slow and possessing an ability that is useless on a Single Battle, Charjabug is a good physical wall thanks top Eviolite and Magnet Rise. His attack also allows it to take on foes without relying only on Toxic to deal damage. You can either go for STAB X-Scissor or go for Crunch (which allows it to hit foes that resist Bug). The counters I found so far are Life Orb Simisear, Muk/Electivire with Fire Punch and Knock Off users. As team options, Toxic Spikes setters like Mareanie and stuff that could deal better with ground greatly help it.
Here are 3 matches I played and recorded to test Charjabug's capacities:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-926302255
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-926296302
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-925867669

275p · Jun 11, 2019

PsychLantern said:
Hey there! I'm not that high on the rankings, but I was toying around and found a Poke that may be able to fit ZU.
Charjabug (Unranked -> Somewhere):
Yes, it may be a pupa Pokémon but it's outstanding compared to the rest of them. Here's how:

Item:

Eviolite
Ability: Battery
-Magnet Rise
-Toxic
-Rest
-X-Scissor/Crunch
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Def
While not having any recovery aside from Rest, being slow and possessing an ability that is useless on a Single Battle, Charjabug is a good physical wall thanks top Eviolite and Magnet Rise. His attack also allows it to take on foes without relying only on Toxic to deal damage. You can either go for STAB X-Scissor or go for Crunch (which allows it to hit foes that resist Bug). The counters I found so far are Life Orb Simisear, Muk/Electivire with Fire Punch and Knock Off users. As team options, Toxic Spikes setters like Mareanie and stuff that could deal better with ground greatly help it.
Here are 3 matches I played and recorded to test Charjabug's capacities:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-926302255
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-926296302
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-925867669

Although I do like the idea, the question is why you would use it over other physical walls? I mean I did some calcs, but the problem is that it `s outclassed. It is outclassed by Gourgeist who doens`t rely on eviolite, is able to use leech seed and is also able to cripple foes with will o wisp. Also why magnet rise? It is not weak to Ground. It`s also weak to Stealth rock and vulnerable to taunt. But even if you don ´t want to take Gour, then you can use Avallug who may have a bad typing, but also has access to recover and rapid spin, while also not being completely passive and possesing a far greater defense stat.

So overall I wouldn`t nom it from UR to UU. It is not necessarily bad, it is just so outclassed that there is almost no reason to use it over the afformentioned Pokemon.

Oldamar999 · Jun 11, 2019

275p said:
Although I do like the idea, the question is why you would use it over other physical walls? I mean I did some calcs, but the problem is that it `s outclassed. It is outclassed by Gourgeist who doens`t rely on eviolite, is able to use leech seed and is also able to cripple foes with will o wisp. Also why magnet rise? It is not weak to Ground. It`s also weak to Stealth rock and vulnerable to taunt. But even if you don ´t want to take Gour, then you can use Avallug who may have a bad typing, but also has access to recover and rapid spin, while also not being completely passive and possesing a far greater defense stat.

So overall I wouldn`t nom it from UR to UU. It is not necessarily bad, it is just so outclassed that there is almost no reason to use it over the afformentioned Pokemon.

On top of that, the replays he posted are not particularly good at all. All the teams are incomplete (having 3 mons at most) and the last one is clearly against low ladder or an inexperienced player with 2 unviable mons on their team (bastiodon and carnivine) and a lot of niche mons. The replays just don't show me what it does for a team especially when one of them is just charjabug.

PsychLantern · Jun 11, 2019

275p said:
Although I do like the idea, the question is why you would use it over other physical walls? I mean I did some calcs, but the problem is that it `s outclassed. It is outclassed by Gourgeist who doens`t rely on eviolite, is able to use leech seed and is also able to cripple foes with will o wisp. Also why magnet rise? It is not weak to Ground. It`s also weak to Stealth rock and vulnerable to taunt. But even if you don ´t want to take Gour, then you can use Avallug who may have a bad typing, but also has access to recover and rapid spin, while also not being completely passive and possesing a far greater defense stat.

So overall I wouldn`t nom it from UR to UU. It is not necessarily bad, it is just so outclassed that there is almost no reason to use it over the afformentioned Pokemon.

Oldamar999 said:
On top of that, the replays he posted are not particularly good at all. All the teams are incomplete (having 3 mons at most) and the last one is clearly against low ladder or an inexperienced player with 2 unviable mons on their team (bastiodon and carnivine) and a lot of niche mons. The replays just don't show me what it does for a team especially when one of them is just charjabug.

I can see your points, I ended up not considering outclassing and forgot Bug nullifying the ground weakness.
For the replays, I can get better ones in some time.
Thanks for the feedback anyway.

Apagogie · Jun 15, 2019

Combusken A -> A+ Strongly Agree
This mon is probably the mon the most threating currently, despite the preparation of players. The number very limited of answers which are not always reliable makes it painful to deal with. It has a big impact on the teambuilding and make mons such as Mareanie or Swanna (which is not that good against it) almost mandatory in any team. It is also a good Shiftry and normal check which is enjoyable at the moment. It is globally as viable as other A+ mons and even better than some of them. To be honnest, if Mareanie didnt exist, it would be broken and even now, it is bordeline.

Golem A+ -> S Unsure
Personally, it is a mon I dont use much, even if i know that it is very splashable. In fact, i would like to have a reasoning which explains why this mon might go to S. It looks to be a bit standard for me without being crazy good. I'm not choked if it goes S but i dont know if it is deserved.

My noms :

Pinsir A+ -> A
Pinsir has been A+ for several months now but it has very rarely been played at high level with great success. The main issue I have with Pinsir is that it is not enough reliable and very dependant of the match up. The Z-Me First which is arguably the best set finds very few opportunities to clean a game against everything which is not an offense. Let's say as well that even against offenses, it struggles to sweep the opponent's team because it requires too much conditions which rarely happen. If on paper, it is one of the most dangerous threat against offense, it is good against them only 50% of the battles, maybe even less which is not at all a good ratio. The two other sets (MB SD and Scarf Moxie) are worse and dont do either the job correctly (especially the Mold Breaker SD set which is a dead weight 90% of the battles and which is even not always reliable against stall).

Gourgeist-Super A+ -> A
Gourgeist-Super has some problems at the moment. Despite its high physical bulk, it loses against a big part of top tier mons. Combusken doesnt have an issue against it, Physical Swanna 2HKO, it switches on Shiftry once and then it is 2HKO, Rapidash OHKO with the Z, even electivire is seen expert belt with flamethrower or even sometimes scarf flamethrower. The problem with Gourgeist-Super is also that even against mons it is supposed to wall, due to the lack of leftovers and with SR and pivot moves, it is easy to weaken. Volt Switch and U-Turn of Komala remove 25% of the life after SR and the Gourgeist is in a bad spot the next time it comes. Approximately every defensive mons run toxic so it's not even a big deal for these mons to threaten Gourgeist. It is very meh at the moment and some mons in the A rank is in my opinion more viable than Gourgeist-Super such as Rapidash, Abomasnow Bronzor or Bouffalant. It should definitely drop.

Mareanie A -> A+
This mon is really good in the meta in itself. It's the most splashable and reliable combusken answer and only for that it is already A+ worthy. The fact is too that toxic spikes stay very good nowadays against every archetype (webs, stall, offense, balance). It is also quite difficult to get rid of it and even difficult to switch into. It is also a good pick against some playstyles hyped such as hail. It is almost the perfect defensive mon. It is more viable than the rest of the A Rank, it deserves a rank higher.

Mr Mime A- -> B+
Remember when this dude was A+. Expect when you need Healing Wish / Trick or specific needs for a psychic type, you dont have a lot of reasons to use scarf Mime over electivire which has a better match up against the meta. It's NP Z-Hypnosis set is also one shot by electivire scarf (and seriously I dont understand why electivire is not in 100% of teams). Otherwise, if you just want an offensive psychic type, Kadabra and Beheyeem both exist and are both A-. Mime is clearly inferior to these two mons, it should drop.

Carbink B -> C+
Nobody plays Trick Room at a high level. Webs, screens and rain/hail/sun have better match ups. Trick Room is too random and not enough reliable to play seriously. It is a good way to counter team but otherwise, it doesnt deserve to be that high. Webs is currently at C+ with Smeargle/Shuckle and it is more reliable.

If I only listened to me, i would nominate Rapidash for A+ but i'm the only one to think that I guess.

Resource SM ZU Viability Rankings (VR Changes #375)

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