Metagame SM ZU NP Stage 2.0: Waiting for the Sun (Exeggutor Unbanned @ post 14)

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Apagogie

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You did valid good points in this post but I have some problems with some things you assumed. Notably, you haven't done a dynamic approach on the meta which could have been interesting to show our differences on the subject. I will try to argue about our different point of views in the matter in trying to give a global approach.

I will first talk about the part 2 because it is important to understand the part 1.
Shiftry is not broken (Part 2):

The second bullet point argues that a broken mon is one, "whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere."

Shiftry, in both ZU ladder usage, tour usage, and viability rankings has both naturally viable checks on top of extra niche ones. Niche examples include Vullaby and Zweilous, which can work for checking Shiftry and Egg but not much else for a team. However, if the following S to B- ranked mons are proven to be checks that are natural to the ZU metagame and provide advantages elsewhere than just checking Shiftry, then this definition of broken must be ruled out as well for Shiftry.

Defensive:


Silvally-Fighting, from the analysis: "Speed tier, adequate offense, good coverage, and access to Defog and U-turn make it a very solid pick for many teams in ZU." These traits alone, along with more appraisal from the analysis, show that this mon exists as much more than a Shiftry check.

Silvally-Dark is one of the few STAB Pursuit user in the tier. That alone makes it a prime pick for supporting Psychics like Egg and Beh to take out Bronz, and also for general Pursuit use. Like Shiftry, the Dark STAB is rare here, so even SD Multi Attack is threatening and unique. Lastly, a BoltBeam set on a Silvally with the Dark typing works against multiple MUs, including checking Swan and Egg.

Maw is a consistent Intimidate user and Normal/Flying resist for the tier that can also provide SR. Maw also checks and punishes the constant U-Turn spam from the Silvally forms thanks to its resistance and sometimes Rocky Helmet.

Phys Def Alt, again from the analysis, "is one of the premier Defog users in the tier. It differentiates itself from other entry hazard removers such as Silvally-Water, Komala, Silvally-Fighting, and Swanna through its combination of resistances, ability in Natural Cure, outstanding overall bulk, and access to reliable recovery." The recent trend with Alt is to run Firium Z instead of leftovers to check Shift on stall team, but ultimately the set and mon still achieves the previously mentioned purposes on top of checking Shift.

Shii resists both of Shifts stabs and only fears bait sets or Flyium Z move sets, which in turn make Shiftry less threatening as a whole. Past that, Shii has a great movepool with Spore and Strength Sap and can stall out many physical attackers like Golem or Evire.
Offensive:

Eviolite Combusken can afford to SD in the face of Shiftry with a safe switch in and tier teams apart; worthy of an A+ rank mon. Even without SD or Eviolite, a healthy Combusk can fire off an attack without needing to protect against Shiftry.

Z Mirror Move Swanna dodges the sucker punch and allows the player to set up and KO a weakened Shiftry at around 50% health. Past that, all healthy Swannas can still survive an LO sucker without rocks, or a 37% roll with them. Z Move Shifts cannot 1hko with sucker after rocks, doing only 58% max.

Grassium Z Bellosum and SD Jump both work to Strength Sap and set up in the face of Shift, but also be great late game sweepers on there own.

These sets mostly were concerned with the standard LO Mixed Shift, which was one of the more used and successful Shifts from the ZUPL data. Z move sets or special NP sets either are easier to deal with or have overlapping defensive or offensive checks.

Again, if one were to say that these mons can be checks to Shiftry, and be viable even outside the Shiftry context, then it is fair to say that Shiftry is not broken by having only niche checks. These mons prove that Shiftry can be punished in multiple ways, and that the "Shift check" in teambuilding is natural to other teambuilding roles.
About defensive answers, Silvally-Fighting, Dark and Mawile take 50% of their life on Leaf Storm. The only version of Altaria which tanks Shiftry is the Z-move 252/160+ in defense which doesn't have to take stealth rocks to be sure to don't die on SP at +2.

Shiinotic is the definition of a niche mon which becomes suddendly good only due to only one mon. In the beginning of march, when Shiftry started to rise ranks, Shiinotic was in the C rank on the viability rankings. It was deserved, this Pokemon is outclassed almost totally by Gourgeist-Super which is far bulkier (On Golem Stone Edge Gourg-S takes max 33%, Shiinotic max 51%). In this aspect, it can be compared to a lower extent to Seaking or Magneton which were only used at the beginning due to Frosttom or Scizor respectively.

On the same kind of idea, Mawile was B- before Shiftry rose. It is nominated to be A- today. This kind of thing is okay in itself if the mons used have some merits and doesn't make your team worse. It's however the case.

The restriction of the teambuilding that Shiftry exerces puts you in a disadvantaged situation since it is picky in terms of checks and counters. Even when it is not in teams.
Example 1 : DurzaOffTopic versus Xayah ZUPL :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-960390659
DurzaOffTopic took a team which was 6-0 by Shiftry. He fished for the match up and it was apparently the good decision since Xayah didn't bring Shiftry. Xayah however has been prepared to Shiftry in taking Shiinotic.
Turn 1, Durza leads with Komala band. Xayah doesn't know the set and decides to pivot with u-turn. The damages revealed that it's probably a band or an assault vest Komala. Xayah is already in a difficult position and has to decide between Shiinotic/Metang. He lost the fifty fifty and takes 70% on Shiinotic. Shiinotic is 2HKO by Electivire some turns later by Wild Charge which makes Evire and Komala band free to do damages.

Let's imagine a world where Shiftry doesn't exist. The team of Durza won't have changed much since his team doesn't handle Shiftry. Xayah would have certainly taken Gourgeist-Super which, outside of the Shiftry match up, is better than Shiinotic. The game would have been very different, Komala couldn't more or less got rid of Shiinotic turn 2. He would have got a more solid electivire and komala band answer (two A+ mons) which wouldn't force him to start the game with an impossible come back. Maybe Xayah would have won in this tournament battle, maybe not. One thing is sure, the presence of Shiftry in the meta substantially weakens the team of Xayah.

Example 2 : Tsareentje versus a fruitshopowner ZUPL :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7zu-959796515
Both teams are prepared against Shiftry. Once has Vullaby (C- mon) the other Silvally Dark.
The team of fruitshop owner is interesting because he used the lure Poison Jab Sandslash to hurt Shiinotic and a curse lickilicky which is a really dangerous wincondition. However, his match up is horrible. Notably, Leafeon, a mon with the exact same coverage than Shiftry, 6-0 his team. If Tsareentje used Swords Dance turn one, the game would have been over.

The team of fruitshop wasn't bad by any means. It was a good antimeta team. He used Vally-Dark against Shiftry, which is a decent shiftry answer in the sense where it is not killed by Sucker Punch at the +2 and can u-turn on it pretty safely since it's faster. However, it's absolutely not a grass anwer. He choosed to be safe against a S rank mon instead of a B+ one which is logical but cost him the victory.

With these examples, we can conclude several things :
1) Shiftry, even when not present in battles, has a clear influence on the teambuilding.
This can also be seen in the usage where Mawile is regulary in the top 10 of usage in tournament, notably in the week 2 and 4 of the zupl where it is the sixth mon the most used (I remind that it was a B- mon before Shiftry becomes played). Shiinotic, a pokemon almost totally outclassed by Gourgeist-Super outside of the Shiftry match up, is most used in zupl than its counterpart. It's especially true when we remove stall where Shiinotic has almost a monopoly of use instead of Gourgeist-Super. The same can be said about Altaria Z-move which was rarely seen before and in a lesser extent the high usage of Silvally. This kind of thing is a strong centralization. You can call that a normal centralization or an overcentralization but you cannot deny that the influence of Shiftry on the teambuilding is far more important than the influence of any other pokemon played in ZU.

2) Since Shiftry is picky in answers, the teams which are built to handle Shiftry put you in a disadvantaged position against other threats.
It is not something common. Others top tier have reliable and viable answers. Combusken is answered by viable mons and very used such as Mareanie, Swanna, Pyukumuku, Silvally-Water. Electivire and Golem have normally a lot of good answers such as Gourgeist-Super, Bronzor, Bulky grounds such as Sandslash, and bulky grass overall (even leafeon is a soft counter). The only other top tier mon, without being a wallbreaker, which doesn't have reliable viable answers is Swanna which is also a mon pretty busted in ZU.

3) The other threats and top tiers benefit of a weaken metagame.
When players play Altaria, Mawile, Shiinotic and Silvally to handle Shiftry well, they are limited by the number of slots by team since they have to handle as well mons such as Combusken, Swanna,to pressure stall, to beat toxic spikes, etc. What I mean is they don't usually have the slot for an other physical sponge. If you take that into consideration, the relatively strength of Electivire, Golem and mostly Leafeon and Komala in the last tournament is easy to explain.
When you take Mawile or Altaria-Zmove because Shiftry, it's obvious that Evire and Golem become more threating than usual. It's exactly the same when you trade Gourgeist-Super for Shiinotic where you use a golem switch in which is 2HKO (!) by Golem after rocks and takes 45% on Ice punch from evire.
In the case of Leafeon, it just kills every team which relies on Silvally to handle Shiftry. More than that, with normalium-Z which is a standard set, it one shots shiinotic at +2 and it's a roll for altaria. The funniest part is it has the exact same coverage than Shiftry but a team which handles Shiftry doesn't necessary handle Leafeon. It exists good answers to Leafeon such as Gourgeist-Super or faster mon able to revenge kill common versions such as Simisear, Pinsir scarf, Rotom-fan scarf, toucannon scarf, etc. The majority of the them are killed by SP at +2 so you don't use them to handle Shiftry. I think I don't have to explain about Komala, the no-presence of Gourgeist-Super and Avalugg outside of stall is a good thing.

Shiftry is not broken (Part 1):

Taken from the tiering policy framework thread on the definition of "broken":


Regarding the first bullet point, Shiftry is easily not needed to have a fair chance of winning in the ZU metagame. This is observed in both ladder and tour play, where all three playstyles can avoid having Shiftry and still be viable teams with equal chances to win. Take the first 81 games of ZUPL, where Shiftry was the fifth most used mon, used in 40 games, but the only mon with a losing record out of the 5:

View attachment 196762
Figure A: First 81 SM Games from ZUPL Usage Stats; see 85percent's post.

Let's also look at the teambuilding combos that the tool provides. With it, we see Shiftry combos being more successful. The infamous Swanna / Shiftry combo saw 22 uses and a 63% winrate, and Golem / Shiftry saw 24 uses and a winrate of 58%. With combos of three, Golem / Swanna / Shiftry saw 18 uses and a 66% winrate, Golem / Electivire / Shiftry with 17 uses and a 70% winrate. This is in comparison to more cores that include Silvally forms with similar high winrates for Shiftry.

A broken mon would need to follow through with first part of the above definition provided, and in practice Shiftry has failed to prove so. There proved to be more centralized mons and more successful pics all around, and even in the context of Shiftry making a high winrate core is still challenged by higher or equal combos like Leafeon / Golem (80% winrate), Komala / Electivire (70%), Leafeon / Rotom-Fan (83%), and Swanna / Electivire (66%) to name a few.

These stats are of course limited in that Silvally forms are not differentiated, so the top five uses and cobo stats are undoubtably skewed because of this. Still, even when dropping Silvally out of the equation, the stats provide a good look at what some of the more common and successful combos are.

Given that Shifty by itself had a losing percentage, and that even in combos still saw competition from other combos, it is fair to say that in the context of ZUPL Shiftry does NOT make a "drastic disadvantage" for a player to exclude it from their team. Instead, Shiftry is only one of the four singular mons (excluding Silvally forms) that were heavily used in ZUPL, and even then it was nothing outstanding.
So we can now start to talk about the winrate of Shiftry in ZUPL. We had a tournament which was very prepared against the Shiftry presence (see once again the mawile, shiinotic, altaria z-move and silvally usage). It shows that it is possible to make teams in ZU which deals with Shiftry comfortably. Nevertheless, despite of heavy preparation, Shiftry still manages to reach almost a 50% winrate which is relatively crazy to be honest. It is not the only thing, it also shows that a lot of teams, whose for a large part are prepared against Shiftry, have currently a bad match up against other top tiers.

And it becomes absurd. Why bronzor, a mon which counters most golem variant, is one of the best swanna answer, is one of the few good rockers, is correct against evire, sucks if it is not due to Shiftry ? Why Leafeon, a mon which is played in a meta when every team should carry a good grass/dark resist, manages, in being played more than 10 times, to reach 75% winrate ? Tell me if it is not because the majority of shiftry answers are bad ? Why people still play Shiinotic instead of Gourgeist-Super even if they are aware that komala band/bouffalant/leafeon or even bibarel lol destroy their team ?

If you want a single reason why Shiftry should be suspected, here we go :

Shiftry should be suspected because it makes ZU less competitive

With the unhealthy impact Shiftry exerces on the metagame, in decreasing the viability of in theory good mons such as Gourgeist-Super, Bronzor, Silvally-Water, and in forcing players to play suboptimal mons such as shiinotic, mawile, or vallys in grass checks, Shiftry makes other top tiers and threats better than they actually are. It restricts the teambuilding around its use and force players to be threaten by top tiers.
It's normal to don't cover perfectly any mon in the tier. It is not normal to create classic teams 6-0 by top tiers/good mons. It's especially true for balances and offenses which are the playstyles the most restricted by the presence of Shiftry. They are forced to play bad mons or have trouble to deal with shiftry in itself.

The ZU is less competitive than before because it is nowadays too much based on the match up. You have to pick against which good mons you lose. You start a game in hoping you covered the right mon your opponent used. It's just frustrating because it's something which is not always in your power, especially when you don't know the opponent. Anyway a competitive game shouldn't rely too much on the good card you pick. I would say that one battle on two is won at the team preview. Personally, it's not a metagame I appreciate playing. I'm just exhausted when I lose against a mon I don't have any counter due to the nature of my team, I have no pleasure to beat an opponent because he didn't have any answer to one of my mon. The state of ZU right now is almost worse than the one when Rotom-Frost existed. At least, during the frosttom area, you had to win 50/50 during the battle, not before the battle in choosing your team.

Shiftry is the main reason, it's the mon which restricts the most your teambuilding and which force you to play unreliable mons instead of viable one. Since it's the third time people asked for the suspect, I think it's the least of it. I'm obviously in favour of a ban. Nothing except bans could fix the tier. I hope something will be done, at least to make the tier more competitive but also more enjoyable to play.


(* I apologize for the English mistake it is late. Also, even if answered to Hoen, it's more a general answer. He doesn't have to feel specially targeted).
 
After everything that was said about Shiftry, I still think the case really comes down to want you want from the Metagame. I'll explain that with some examples.

1) It was mentioned that there are no real "counters" that deal with every set which has some truth to it. Silvallys fall through because they are blown away by Shiftry in Sun. Mawile also really hates any special variant and Shiinotic dies (68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) to explosion (In that it still got rid of Shiftry so theres that). But I think that argument even if true still doesn't make it broken or even suspect. For a breaker to have no sure fire counter in a tier is quite normal see for example Kartana in OU.

2)The point that Shiftry is kind of centralizing and has effects on teambuilding is of course true but isn't that normal for an S tier threat. According to it's ZUPL Winrate players have preped enough for it. This leads me to the next point.

3) Teams ready for Shiftry are bad vs other threats. This surely has a lot of weight but I wouldn't call the Shiftry answers bad. How good Shiftry is should give a boost to its answers as well. I'm still not sure what I think of this though since especially the Gourgeist Shiin thing definitly has a point. But also not being able to trade the dark resist for a dark weak and blaming the dark type seems weird. You probably could discuss this forever without a conclusion.

Which leads me back to the start. By the the tiering policy framework thread on the definition of "broken" Shiftry is not broken but that doesn't say removing it wouldn't make the meta more competitive or more fun. I personally really like it because of it's splashability but why not let the playerbase decide by a good old Suspect test.
 

Aaronboyer

Something Worth Fighting For
is a Contributor to Smogon
While several of the more recent posts have discussed the potential need of a Shiftry suspect test, I would like to also call to everyone's attention the looming threat that is Swanna. Now, I do want to preface this post by saying that ZU has admittedly had a lot of trouble clarifying what is and should be a ZU S-Rank, and I don't want this post to come off as needing to suspect test every single Pokemon that the Council votes as S-Rank for the Viability Rankings. Other than Komala, we just haven't had a healthy S-Rank which is unfortunate to say the least, but it is what it is.

When Swanna initially dropped I was really excited for its debut into the tier. Z-Hurricane and Z-Mirror Move were the most abundantly clear sets that saw use, followed by Z-Rain Dance. Choice Scarf Swanna also took off mildly well a couple weeks into that ZU metagame although it took some convincing to get Choice Scarf Swanna off the ground, while after some testing defensive sets were unfortunately not as good as I had hoped. Nevertheless, Swanna was very versatile and slowly started to rise in viability. Around the time of the ZU Seasonal Playoffs, Z-Hurricane was still the most predominant Swanna set seeing usage, but as the weeks went by in ZUPL, something kind of just clicked and suddenly Z-Mirror Move became the most seen set. Weeks 2-4 of ZUPL would see Swanna with a winrate above 60%, while in Week 5 (Not Tiebreaker) Swanna won 8/9 games for an 89% winrate. I know Durza was talking about how winrates are a non-factor for determining should we suspect something or not, but I really really do think a near 90% winrate for a Pokemon cannot be ignored here.

So why does Swanna have a near 90% winrate? Well, first off I think its important to note that Swanna's two most popular sets, Z-Hurricane and Z-Mirror Move, have completely different subsets of defensive checks. Pokemon like Komala, Kecleon, Muk, and Bronzor check special Swanna sets, and while it is easy to pair Swanna with something like Golem and Shiftry to break those Pokemon down, Z-Mirror Move also catches these Pokemon offguard. For a handful teams during ZUPL I really wanted to try out Assault Vest Electivire as an offensive switch into special Swanna sets, but people went a different direction, so the Delibirds only actually brought AV Electivire to one game. Cradily, Corsola, and Metang are some of the few switch-ins we've been seeing for both sets, with the former two being more niche Stealth Rockers than something like Golem and are harder to put onto teams, let alone the fact they are way more passive in this offensive metagame, while the latter, Metang, has started to run Thunder Punch exclusively for Swanna. In fact, Thunder Punch Metang is no longer a good lure for Swanna at all, its so common. It can also be extremely hard to distinguish which set Swanna is utilizing at Team Preview, so sometimes you switch in the wrong thing or you have to scout with Protect on something like Golem to know what an appropriate switch-in would be.

It doesn't really help the fact that offense and hyper offense is the dominate playstyle in ZU right now; in fact Swanna kind of exacerbates that. If you are running an offensive team, you are literally at a disadvantage for not running Swanna. This is completely unlike Shiftry where you can simply replace it with something like Simisage, which did really well early-to-mid ZUPL or Leafeon, which has being doing well in ZUPL overall. In comparison, there are very few offensive Flying-types to even compare Swanna with. Toucannon is way too slow, Chatot is viewed more as a Normal-type than a Flying-type, Jumpluff is not initially strong enough, Drifblim relies on Unburden way too much and is weak to Sucker Punch, and none of these Flying-types have seen tournament success remotely close to Swanna's. Swanna fits with Electivire, Swanna fits with Golem, Swanna fits with XYZ Grass-type, Swanna fits with a multitude of different Silvally formes. And they all just break down each other's checks so either Swanna or what its paired with can clean up later. It's relatively brainless, and I don't want this mindset to be the mindset of ZU as we exit generation seven.

I personally believe, after seeing what I've already seen of ZUPL so far, that Z-Mirror Move has pushed Swanna over the edge, which is weird to say since its been a main set since Swanna's debut, but it has never seen this much use. August 2019 1760 ladder stats more than 1 in 3 Swannas are Z-Mirror Move. The Delibirds were planning on using a Pohjis-esque Semi-Stall for ZUPL one week and in teamchat I told OminousDraco if they bring Z-MM Swanna and Thunder Punch Metang was in range of a +2 Liquidation, we outright lose. At first that sounds preposterous because how could that be a good team? But it did well in testing otherwise, and versus Z-Hurricane Swanna it did fine as Komala checked it handily. But Z-MM is what we faced and we did end up losing that game. So why does this matter? Swanna not only is an offense staple, it outright invalidate certain playstyles. Our physically defensive core of Golem + Gourgeist-Super was ripped right through because of Swanna's fantastic dual STAB combination. Again, going back to the fact nothing else compares to Swanna and that you have to go out of your way to cover all bases for all of Swanna's sets when composing a team is nothing short of difficult.

Simply put, I think the current metagame right now revolves around the same basic offensive cores and that building outside of those constructs puts you at a severe disadvantage. While Shiftry is certainly something I'd also like to see tested, I don't believe Shiftry is the only culprit here, as Swanna puts just as much, if not more, constraint into teambuilding as Shiftry does.
 

DnB

#DnB4608, its way easier on discord :>
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As a rocks setter, Torterra makes Golem worse, but Bronzor even better :>
But I'm looking forward to try out offensive sets, banded looks like a lot of fun :)
 

Celever

i am town
is a Community Contributor
I'm not planning on making a particularly long, detailed post, but reading this thread I think the suspect worthiness of Shiftry is dependent on one factor: how viable Shiftry counters are against teams that aren't Shiftry. To do this, I want to look at 2 Pokémon in fairly similar situations to it, namely Combusken and Swanna.

Combusken has even more sweeping potential than Shiftry in the right matchup, and teams needs to be even more prepared for it. Offensive checks and counters to Busk, like Shiftry, are minimal, but the Pokémon who can deal with Busk are even fewer than Shiftry has. The difference is that Mareanie and Altaria are both entirely viable outside of checking Busk, and even the more niche options such as Dusclops and Gabite have a lot of use outside of just dealing with Busk. A team generally isn't worse against non-Combusken matchups for having to check Combusken during the teambuilding stage, right? Except they are -- every Combusken answer is extremely passive because it can't be outsped and revenge killed thanks to Speed Boost, and while Busk answers are good at fulfilling utility roles, offensive teams have to find a way to work this utility into their team structure where they likely wouldn't have done so otherwise. Busk has a significant impact on teambuilding even in games where Busk isn't used, forcing teams to be a little more passive than perhaps some players would like. Busk also benefits from Mareanie and Altaria countering both its physical and special sets, helping to temper quite how centralising it is, though special Busk will often run HP Electric or Ice to choose which counter to beat.

Swanna is different in that there are really no counters to both its physical and special sets. In fact, the only viable Flying-Type resists we have in the tier are Golem, Electivire, Rotom-Fan, Bronzor, Pawniard, Metang, and Mawile, the latter 4 of which are dependent on their Eviolite to have a chance of dealing with Swanna in a Knock Off dominated metagame. None of these Pokémon can handle both Z-Rain and Z-MM Swanna, meaning teams are generally relying on their neutral bulk combined with stellar prediction to try to wear Swanna down over the course of a match. Thankfully this isn't too hard as Swanna has minimal bulk, weakness to SR, is prone to being revenge killed against extremely fast Pokémon, and weakness to priority, but Swanna still has a significant effect on teambuilding outside of Swanna matchups. It makes priority much more viable, is a large part of why Electivire has such a monopoly on Choice Scarf use, and forces teams to be bulkier and more passive as a result if priority in the form of Kecleon, Shiftry or Pawniard doesn't fit well on their team. It's fairly centralising in its own right.

Shiftry I don't see as significantly different to either Combusken or Swanna. Some Pokémon were less viable before everyone started using Shiftry -- Shiinotic, Mawile, Leafeon -- but that doesn't mean they're dead weight against non-Shiftry matchups. Shiinotic was in part considered unviable previously because it was eclipsed somewhat by Tangela as a Gourgeist-Super alternative, but now that Tangela is comfortably PU it's only natural that Shiinotic would rise as a dominant bulky Grass-Type, and the same goes for Leafeon. All 3 bulky Grass-Type Pokémon have divergence in how they're played that make them better or worse on different teams: Gourgeist-Super has the superior bulk and can spread burns and Leech Seed, but is passive despite Foul Play; Shiinotic has Strength Sap and Spore, two of the best moves in the game, and the coveted Fairy-Type which is fairly unresisted in this tier to spam Moonblast, and Leafeon has utility in Knock Off with an offensive presence the other two Grass-Type Pokémon don't have thanks to Swords Dance. None of these Pokémon are viable only as answers to Shiftry, even if answering Shiftry may put them perhaps a rank higher in the VR than they would otherwise be. Outside of picks like Vullaby and Zweilous, Shiftry answers would see use even if Shiftry weren't in the tier, and Vullaby and Zweilous are not necessary choices to deal with every Shiftry set. Shiinotic does this just as well since Shiftry can only beat it with Explosion, by which point the function of dealing with Shiftry has been completed. Shiftry is like Combusken in that there are Pokémon that can deal with every set it can run, and like both Combusken and Swanna in that a result of it being in the tier makes teams more passive, bulkier, and focussed on some specific answers to the top tier threats. This setup is the same as every tier on the site -- the top Pokémon in the tier shape the rest of it.

Shiftry is not in a situation like Rotom-Freeze was where trashmons like Chinchou and Seaking were seeing use because nothing that would ordinarily be viable could reliably deal with it. The nature of metagames is that the top shapes the bottom -- that's why we even have the term anti-meta, to denote a Pokémon who isn't good in every matchup but is used to deal with a handful of specific matchups. I don't see how Shiftry is any different to Combusken in its effect on ZU, or Greninja in OU, or Eelektross in PU. They're all extremely influential, but can be dealt with through either better play, better teambuilding, or a combination of both. A Pokémon is broken or centralising when that's not the case, as per the tiering policy.

If anything I second Aaronboyer's suggestion that Swanna is more worth a suspect test. It can only be beaten by better play as there are so few Pokémon that can beat Swanna, and they all have ways to be dealt with by other Pokémon (for example most of them are dependent on Eviolite and can be dealt with by Knock Off) to make them no longer able to answer Swanna, opening a window for a sweep. However, I'm still unsure whether Swanna quite qualifies as powerful enough for a suspect test. I think I'm about 60-40 biased towards no suspect test.
 

5gen

jumper
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Hello all, I'm here to announce that the council is currently voting on whether we will suspect Shiftry or Swanna, or even hold a suspect test at all. The decision will come out within a week and then I'll announce the results. Thanks to everyone who has posted here and/or gave their opinions in the ZU Discord/ZU room.

Edited for clarification.
I'll post my thoughts later today or tomorrow
 
Last edited:

Greybaum

GENTLEMAN, THIS IS DEMOCRACY MANIFEST
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
My turn. Here's my take on Swanna, Shiftry, and how both influence the meta. Warning: 3,270 words 19,763 characters

Swanna
1570908060832.png
How is Swanna checked defensively?

To be blunt; it's not really. At least, not easily. As Aaronboyer said, not a single Pokemon in the tier handles all three of Swanna's sets, those being Z-Hurricane, Z-Rain Dance and Z-Mirror Move.
The only Pokemon that resist both Water and Flying in this tier are Chinchou and Helioptile, neither of which are ranked on the VR for obvious reasons. This leaves us with blanket checks, i.e. Pokemon that don't focus on any specific Pokemon to check but are instead used to check a variety of Pokemon using their sheer bulk instead of a type advantage.
The only exceptions to this rule, that I can think of, are Rotom-Fan, Silvally-Water and Silvally-Dragon.
Rotom's strong stats allow it to tank Scald/Liquidation without too much trouble and it has a nice resistance to Hurricane/Brave Bird.
Silvally-Water and Dragon however just use their bulk to live any hit from Swanna and fire back with Thunderbolt. Technically any Silvally form can do this, but these types are the only commonly used ones that aren't weak to Hurricane.

Blanket checks that take on Swanna's special set include:
:komala::bouffalant::bronzor::mareanie::muk::kecleon::cradily:
Note that some of these are shaky checks at best. Bouffalant and Kecleon are crippled by Scald, Bronzor is passive and loses to Z-Rain Dance, Mareanie can lose to Hurricane confusion, especially from the Rain Dance set where accuracy isn't a factor, and can only threaten Swanna back if it's using Sludge Bomb. It also has a chance to be killed by Hurricane into Z-Hurricane. Muk is annoyed somewhat by burn and is reliant on Rest to check Swanna, meaning it can easily be chipped in range.
Looking at the "exception" Pokemon, the standard spread used on Silvally-Water and Silvally-Dragon will take 97% minimum from Hurricane into Z-Hurricane. Factoring in Stealth Rock, potential chip, and the simple fact that it's a 97-115% roll, it's safe to discount these Pokemon as reliable answers on their own. Rotom-Fan is almost a guaranteed answer, but a weakness to rocks means it has a small chance to be killed by Scald into Z-Hurricane after Stealth Rock.
Defensively, the only Pokemon that seems to check Swanna consistently above B- on the Viability Rankings is Cradily, unless you include Stall teams, which quite frankly dick on Swanna. Swanna is not breaking past Lickilicky, or Dusclops, or SpDef Pyukumuku. However, none of these Pokemon are especially splashable on Balance teams.

Now we factor in Z-Mirror Move, which is the set that spurred my outbursts as pictured above. In my opinion this is Swanna's best set.
So what deals with Z-Mirror Move? Again, B- up only.
:bronzor::mareanie::rotom-fan::granbull::mawile::metang::silvally:(Water, Dragon)

So, we've seen how Z-Hurricane Swanna can make pretty much all of its threats irrelevant. How does Z-Mirror Move do the same?
Interestingly, it doesn't. Mareanie can be killed by Brave Bird into Z-Brave Bird after rocks, and the same can be said of both Silvally formes. However, not only does this force Swanna to give up on Z-Mirror Move (which is actually a huge part of Swanna's viability due to how many kills you miss out on without this boost) but it also doesn't prevent Rotom-Fan, Granbull, Mawile or Metang from consistently dealing with Swanna.
For Stall, once again Swanna doesn't have much of a chance. Avalugg, Mawile, Pyukumuku, Dusclops again; every variation of stall should have an easy matchup vs Swanna.

So here we get to the main question.

Why is Z-Mirror Move seeing so much more success than Z-Hurricane or Z-Rain Dance?

Until now we've only focused on defensive checks.
What beats Swanna offensively?
We have scarfers. :silvally::rotom-fan::electivire::simipour::rapidash::swanna: and a few other more niche ones like Komala, Kadabra, Simisage etc.
faster pokemon.:simisage::furfrou::kadabra::rapidash::raichu: and again a few niche ones like Jumpluff, Electrode, Purugly, and Gourgeist-Small.
Priority: :shiftry::kecleon::pawniard:
So how does the Z-Hurricane set beat any of these? It doesn't. It's forced to swap out, letting a teammate take an honestly quite strong hit from any of these Pokemon. The only Pokemon here that isn't a huge issue for Swanna is Simipour, though it can somewhat play around Shiftry and Pawniard if it outplays Sucker Punch 8 times in a row (unlikely but the chance is there).
Now, the Z-MM set? Access to Aqua Jet gives Swanna a pretty strong tool here. Rapidash is immediately removed, and the majority of the other Pokemon are no longer consistent checks. Electivire now needs to be kept above 68% (with Rocks up), Rotom-Fan at 71%, and Raichu needs to be at a whopping 86% to tank a hit from Swanna, meaning it has to be at full health if it's holding a Life Orb and doesn't want to die after. Shiftry is now actually situationally setup bait for Swanna, as Swanna can take off 60% from Shiftry with a +2 Z-Sucker Punch.

Note that there are still many Pokemon here that can still check Swanna if played conservatively, and others like Silvally (partially why it's the best scarfer) and Furfrou can consistently check both Z-Hurricane and Z-Mirror Move Swanna. Priority users also have a harder time as Aqua Jet can 2HKO Kecleon and 3HKO Pawniard.
Z-Rain Dance is similar in nature to Z-Mirror Move, as the additional speed lets you bypass scarfers in the same fashion, and has a notably better matchup against the likes of Furfrou, however this set needs a lot more chip to be spread onto the opponent first due to the lack of an offensive Z-Move that can be used to break past Mareanie, Silvally-Water etc.
This set also has the same issues against priority users in Shiftry, Pawniard and especially Kecleon.

In short, this is why Z-Mirror Move is Swanna's best set right now. While it technically has more defensive checks, its offensive checks become far more manageable. It may not be obvious why this is beneficial, but I'll get into it in a bit.

Before that...

Is Swanna Broken?

Yes, absolutely.

...To sum up, Swanna's special checks are demolished by the physical set and vice versa. Mawile can not take Scald. Komala can not take Liquidation. Mareanie and Bronzor can check both sets but only if they're using the correct EV spread; they can't cover both. Z-Rain Dance muddies things further, making the checks that do exist to the special set far less consistent. Offensive pressure is the only reason Swanna is manageable right now, and almost all of them are abusable, leaving the tier with a limited few checks that I consider reliable, and Rotom-Fan being the only one among them that can actually switch into both sets (and it can only do this once).

Believe it or not I'm not even halfway through this post. Take a break here if you're tired and carry on in a bit.


1570915529569.png

Shiftry
Bit sick of writing now so I'll speed things up a bit.
How is Shiftry checked defensively?
Once again, it's not really.

We'll use ho3n's post as our main source, though 275p helped me think up a few too that Ho3n may have missed.
Silvally forms: :silvally:(Dark):silvally:(Fighting)
Z-Users::rapidash::leafeon::rotom-fan::altaria::bellossom:
The Rest: :shiinotic::vullaby::togetic::monferno::combusken::mawile::jumpluff:
That's not many but they all seem decent enough. Now we look at how Shiftry can bypass them.
Both Silvally-Fighting and Silvally-Dark are 2HKOd by Leaf Storm from the standard set without heavy investment, but they're otherwise good checks to Shiftry. Shiinotic only fears Z-Bounce, which is generally a pretty mediocre set and can be easily scouted by seeing if Shiftry takes Life Orb recoil. Explosion exists too, but at that point Shiinotic has technically done its job, though being forced to sack a Pokemon isn't ideal.
Rotom-Fan and Altaria can all switch into Shiftry, though all are weak to Stealth Rock and Rotom-S is reliant on Will-O-Wisp to check it as they would otherwise die to +2 Sucker Punch. Leafeon runs into this problem, as it dies to +2 Sucker Punch and even when switching into Knock Off and has to choose between healing (and risking Shiftry SDing) and attacking (and risking Shiftry simply switching out to do the same thing again later). Rapidash has the same issue; it is unable to come into Shiftry after two rounds of Stealth Rock, meaning if Rapidash doesn't immediately recover off the damage it's unable to come into Shiftry again. Jumpluff, again, is unable to take a +2 Sucker Punch, meaning it has to get 50/50s right via Strength Sap and Acrobatics without outright dying.
Togetic, Monferno, and Vullaby are able to come into any of the moves Shiftry typically uses and force it out, though all of them are crippled due to a lack of Eviolite and are typically forced to recover if they ever want to check Shiftry again. Combusken has a solid chance of dying to a +2 Sucker Punch.
Mawile is a fantastic check to Shiftry, though the standard set is also 2HKOd by Leaf Storm. Slight investment & leftovers recovery can negate this to some extent however.

But yeah, things are looking notably better for Shiftry than for Swanna. Like Swanna, this'll be brought up again in a bit, but Shiftry's checks are notably safer than Swanna's - some can even switch in more than once!

What beats Shiftry offensively?

Here's where it kinda falls apart.
Here's a list of Pokemon that outspeed Shiftry and can kill it without dying to Sucker Punch, assuming it's gotten to +2 on Bronzor, Sandslash or a myriad of other fairly passive Pokemon:
:monferno::rotom-fan::silvally:(Fighting):silvally:(Dark)::rapidash::furfrou::kadabra:
Notice how Furfrou and Kadabra are the only new additions? This is because unlike Swanna there is little to no offensive counterplay to Shiftry; no Choice Scarf users beat it (Rotom has to be a Z variant with Will-O-Wisp), Silvally forms people like to bring up as switchins (Dragon, Grass, Poison) all die to +2 Sucker Punch without heavy physdef investment. Leafeon is unable to take Sucker Punch. The only other Pokemon you could add to this list would be Pawniard, who can stomach a +2 Knock Off as long as it's above 86% (92% with rocks up) but embarrassingly can't switch into Shiftry as it dies to Knock Off into Leaf Storm (and also can't OHKO it back anyway).

So, to repeat, our full list of consistent Shiftry counterplay (ignoring mad doubles using, for example, Granbull to soak Knock Off before then switching to Zebstrika on a Leaf Storm) is: Silvally-Fighting, Silvally-Dark, Mawile, Altaria, Shiinotic, Rotom-Fan, Vullaby, Togetic, Monferno, and all of them are somewhat shaky. But yes, they exist.

Why does uhuhuhu7 think Shiftry deserves a suspect over Swanna?

To answer this question, you need to consider everything discussed so far in a bit more detail, because on paper Swanna has less counterplay. I'll be doing this in two small(er), linked sections
- Viability
- Splashability

Viability

This is the easier part to understand. I only included B- and up VR mons for my Swanna counterplay to show that there's actually quite a few even if they're a bit inconsistent. But then you look at the Shiftry checks.

Of the 9 "consistent" answers to Shiftry...
Silvally-Fighting
Silvally-Dark
Mawile

Altaria: Is required to use a Z-Crystal specifically just to check Shiftry.
Shiinotic: Is largely outclassed by Gourgeist-Super when ignoring Shiftry's presence. It does have its own unique benefits (Spore, Strength Sap) but it's undeniably worse overall and only anywhere near as used as it is because of Shiftry.
Rotom-Fan: Much like Altaria, it's required to use a Z-Crystal to check Shiftry. Berry/Leftovers sets would be far better if not for Shiftry's presence.
Vullaby: Ranked only to deal with Shiftry and Exeggutor. One top threat alone isn't enough to be ranked (see: Chinchou, Helioptile) so it's safe to say this would be unranked without Shiftry's presence.
Togetic: At Shiftry's very peak Togetic is "Usually Useless". This Pokemon is similar in many ways to Vullaby, and I think it's a good representation of where Vullaby should be.
Monferno: Actually a decent Pokemon, and better than I pretend it is, but a ton of its viability comes from being a slightly okay Shiftry answer as it's only "good" at anything else it provides a team. It'd probably be in B- instead of B+ if not for Shiftry's presence, if not lower.

Compare this to Swanna. Yes, nothing checks both sets, but I don't personally think anything has to. All of my listed answers to Swanna are viable with or without Swanna's presence, and if we treated Swanna the same way we treated Shiftry in regards to item slots we'd be seeing Passho Berry as a staple on Crustle, as opposed to something I've just thrown onto a team once to slightly patch up a weakness. It's very easy to have multiple Swanna checks, which leads me onto...

Splashability

I'll get this out of the way first:
Swanna is destroyed by stall.
Shiftry is the best counterplay to stall in the tier. I think this ZUPL game is a good highlight of how something like Vullaby simply isn't enough when momentum isn't in the stall user's favour.

Now lets look at other archetypes.
How easy is it to pack the necessary 2+ Swanna checks on bulky offence?
Honestly not hard at all.
ZUPL Finals, Quantum Tesseract vs Jarii
Quantum Tesseract has a Scarf Kadabra, defensive Rotom-Fan and Silvally-Water. Jarii makes some fantastic plays here which does end up with Silvally-Water taken off the field, but Quantum Tesseract still has a solid Swanna matchup here; nothing invites Swanna in freely (outside of Z-MM setting up on a crippled Shiftry), speed control in Kadabra gives him a consistent revenge killer and both Rotom-Fan and Silvally-Water can switch into Swanna a few times. Shiftry also checks non Z-Mirror Move variants.
How about Jarii?
His team is more offence, using offensive threats in Shiftry and Swanna to overwhelm defensive counterplay and using what looks to be Assault Vest Komala to blanket check special attackers, including Swanna. Choice Scarf Electivire also revenge kills Swanna fairly easily. This team admittedly does have a harder time against Swanna, especially Z-MM variants, as it doesn't have an easy way to scout out the set without risking Electivire's health, but the team's more offensive nature means that it can afford to make trades and still maintain momentum even in a worst case scenario.

Now we look at the Shiftry counterplay. QT is actually using Choice Scarf on Kadabra and Pinch Berry on Shiftry, meaning he's reliant on Leafeon as a switchin and has to then double to Rotom-Fan to burn Shiftry if it ends up clicking Swords Dance. I suspect Jarii is using Colbur Berry on his Beheeyem to lure in and take out Shiftry, but it's a similar situation for him. Nothing on Jarii's team gives Shiftry an opportunity to Swords Dance without making big risks, but Electivire is still dying to Sucker Punch after a small amount of chip. if Beheeyem doesn't successfully lure and take out Shiftry he's reliant on speed ties and Z-MM Swanna to revenge kill.

What I'm getting at with this is yeah, QT prepped 4 threats to deal with Swanna, but that's partially because it's pretty easy to do so. Offence pretty naturally deals with Swanna too just by being virtue of, well, offensive. Shiftry on the other hand?

Here's a quick recap on Shiftry's checks, excluding Vullaby and Togetic, who I don't believe would be ranked without Shiftry's presence.
Silvally forms: :silvally:(Dark):silvally:(Fighting)
Z-Users::rapidash::leafeon::rotom-fan::altaria::bellossom:
The Rest: :shiinotic::monferno::combusken::mawile::jumpluff:
Offensive checks: :furfrou::kadabra:
The reason I grouped them like this is simple; the amount of Shiftry checks drastically goes down when you start to actually build a team.

1570921585007.png

I asked sketchy ecchi to blindly give me an offensive core to build around. He's actually given a best-case scenario in Combusken as a Z user, but nonetheless it wipes out Rapidash, Leafeon, Rotom-Fan, Altaria and Bellossom as viable partners. Combusken and Exeggutor also have poor synergy with Silvally-Fighting, Monferno, Shiinotic and Jumpluff, just off typing, though you could argue that Shiinotic wouldn't fit regardless because of its passive nature (true of many builds).
We have left: Silvally-Dark, Mawile, Furfrou and Kadabra.
This is why I think Shiftry is awful to build against. To have a decent matchup against Shiftry you need two checks, because of how poor all of them are on their own, and after starting with a fairly popular core I've been limited to only two reasonable Shiftry switch-ins in Silvally-Dark and Mawile. The third option is to simply let something die to it and use Furfrou, Kadabra or Combusken to outpace it, which is what half of my recent builds have ended up with. I can also use cores that situationally check it, and use, for example again, Granbull & Zebstrika to make 50/50 predictions, but this is not reasonable counterplay.
I'm speaking more personally now, but I'm sick of this linear building pattern that Shiftry enforces. Half of our Shiftry switchins require a Z Crystal and the other half are extremely limited in role; Mawile and Monferno are your only options if you also need Stealth Rock, Furfrou and Kadabra are your only reliable offensive checks etc. and it just makes team building predictable.

Anyway, both Shiftry and Swanna are broken. Three paragraphs later and I haven't gotten to an answer; who deserves the suspect when both have such limited counterplay?
1570922691314.png
Not only is Swanna counterplay more accessible in every single role, but Swanna leaving doesn't do much for Shiftry's viability. Swanna can't directly switch into much due to its lack of common resistances and weakness to Stealth Rock, meaning Shiftry checks like Shiinotic and Silvally-Fighting don't outright fear Swanna coming in (though doubles can be scary). We've had Shiftry for ages now and the counterplay that does exist is awful. Vullaby and Shiinotic should not be considered the best checks to an S rank when one of them can only barely scratch its way to B+ on the viability rankings and the other is notably lower.

In addition, without the overwhelming presence of Shiftry, I believe many Pokemon become more viable, both generally and as Swanna counterplay.
- Corsola, as shown in ZUPL, is actually a pretty decent Pokemon and beats both Z-Hurricane and Z-Mirror Move Swanna.
- Dusclops could become more viable on fat balance teams as general support and checks both Z-Hurricane and Z-Mirror Move Swanna.
- Bronzor, for obvious reasons, gets better. Same deal.
- Rotom-Fan is now free to use pinch berries or Leftovers, making it a far more reliable Swanna check.
- Rapidash is far more splashable outside of its usual set than before as its poor synergy with other Shiftry checks is no longer a big factor. Scarf Rapidash can beat both Z-Hurricane and Z-Rain Dance Swanna.
- Silvally-Dragon and Water become far more viable and can act as softchecks to Swanna, though as per usual a backup check should also be used.

Pokemon that don't beat Swanna but would be more "free" overall:
- Leafeon can fit onto more teams with Yache and Occa berry as viable sidegrades to the standard Z set, making for scary cores alongside other top threats like Z-Swanna and Z-Combusken.
- Exeggutor and Beheeyem can now viably run Trick Room sets again without being easily forced out by Shiftry's Sucker Punch.
- Simisage and other Grass-types face less competition and provide an adequately strong stall matchup that isn't as overbearing for Offence teams to deal with.

To summarise, ban Shiftry and then see if Swanna is still a problem. I personally think it'll be a lot more manageable than it is at present.
 

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:sm/shiftry:My opinion only here

It is abundantly clear that Shiftry is a monster in ZU both in the builder and in play, and as many know, Shiftry is so good because of its STABs, power, and coverage. Moreover, it is known that Shiftry can break down its checks and counter play pretty consistently thanks to STAB Knock Off and Leaf Storm, and it can also pick off offensive Pokemon with Sucker Punch. I point that out because it needs to be clear why Shiftry is so centralizing.

As someone who builds and plays the tier extensively, it is difficult to not want to suspect Shiftry because while counterplay exists, a well-played Shiftry can easily beat down its checks and counters (I won't go into detail because everyone knows how Shiftry breaks most of the meta). In addition, Shiftry heavily restricts how ZU's offensive Pokemon fit on teams in the current meta. For example, Pokemon faster than 259 Speed or 284 Speed typically fear STAB LO Sucker Punch and are forced to stay as healthy as possible or run status moves to force a 50/50 (i.e Sub Raichu, Sub Simis, faster setup Pokemon, WoW Rapidash, etc). As a result, Shiftry threatens revenge killers and Pokemon such as Combusken, Silvally-Fighting, Silvally-Dark, Monferno, Leafeon, and so forth that can tank a Sucker Punch become more favourable. And as uhu noted, this uptick in Shiftry counterplay makes Swanna that much more effective and dominant.

I didn't want to rehash previous arguments so I'll leave the post a little short. All in all Shiftry has proven it is suspect worthy.
 
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