OU SM OU Discussion Thread

[1LDK]

I have a question for the people who play SM a lot, im trying to cook something with , i want to add because is a cool looking mega and based on the smogon descriptions a good partner for it, but now looking at other resources, i dont know how good Diance actually is, how does it fair overall

 

[Cdijk16]

I have a question for the people who play SM a lot, im trying to cook something with , i want to add because is a cool looking mega and based on the smogon descriptions a good partner for it, but now looking at other resources, i dont know how good Diance actually is, how does it fair overall

I made a nice hyper offense team with these, you'll find it along with descriptions in the team building competition.

 

[DIYUSI]

I have a question for the people who play SM a lot, im trying to cook something with , i want to add because is a cool looking mega and based on the smogon descriptions a good partner for it, but now looking at other resources, i dont know how good Diance actually is, how does it fair overall

Hi, 1LDK
Diancie-Mega got two main niches in SM OU.
The first niche is this one:


Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Stealth Rock
- Moonblast / Diamond Storm
- Endeavor

The main idea of that set is that Diancie-Mega can act as a Suicide Lead on Hyper Offense. The combination of Magic Bounce (that prevent hazards on your field and avoid fast taunt), good speed tier and Endeavor + Substitute (which give the ability to Diancie-Mega to "trade" himself against what the opponent decide to sent on your Diancie once you reduce your HP with Substitute) makes it extremely competent on that role.

One popular example of a team with that set (alongside Volcarona to keep the core you want to build around) can be this:



It's not a team I really like if I have to be honest (kinda cheesy and only very good to abuse recent trend of SM OU such as Toxapex or Chansey on fat structure) but it's still a decent exemple of what kind of structure you can expect around Suicide Lead Diancie-Mega + Volcarona. Moreover, I will add a few replays to get an idea of how good players pilot this team.

Replays:
SPL XIII Week 7 Relous vs 64 squares
SPL XII Semifinals Relous vs obii

The second niche is this one:



Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Moonblast
- Diamond Storm
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock / Hidden Power [Fire] / Hidden Power [Ice] / Protect

This set is pretty straight-forward and I do not think you need any explications to understand that one. Just need to keep in mind that Diancie-Mega will always get one thing that will easily walled it:
-without Hidden Power [Fire]: Ferrothorn, Scizor-Mega, ...
-without Hidden Power [Ice]: Gliscor Careful
-without Earth Power: Heatran
and, without taking into account the kinda 4MSS, you still got some hard counter such as Chansey.

I do not have any "standardized" team with this set + Volcarona, but it was a core that got some uses in big tournaments, so I will sent you a few replays, that way, you can have an idea of how to build around this core:

Replays:
SPL XI Updated Kanto vs Trosko Week 5
SPL XII Frisoeva vs Welli0u Week 9​

 

[Maktyum]

Got some time to kill, saw this as the perfect time to answer those questions:

What are your personal favorite Pokemon to use in the metagame, and why?
the easiest mega to play. The speed and power of its attacks are just so enjoyable and threatening. It only bends the knee to dedicated answers which can all be easily abused thanks to the plethora of sets it can run and its teammates. fake out+quick attack, Pup, encore, or even the weird facade, its potential is always there—a classic.

Ha, literally my mon. Just one of the best offensive pivots and has never been a dead weight since bulky grass types kinda disappeared. Specs is so powerful and only needs one good anticipation vs ground types to basically win the game. Magnet is also an item I enjoy since it keeps some power on its attacks while giving it flexibility. Life orb is scary but IMO losing health that quickly is bad vs an Hawlucha endgame. Finally bulky with Iapapa berry+nature madness+taunt is just insane at chipping away the opposition. It is worth mentioning that is can act as a screen setter and so is a nice addition to HO teams.

the duel of the best megas is between Alakazam and Latias for me. Its speed and power are almost unmatched and Alakazam is an absolute monster in a lots of situations. I fell in love with 4 attacks since it pressures a wide range of the metagame. The Cm set is scary to face and slays balanced teams like a hot knife slicing through butter. Plus trace is incredible and the fact that it is a psychic type not prone to a free pursuit is enjoyable.

Alakazam's partner in crime. Insane power, able to melt steels and straight up OHKO anything that does not resist it. The offensive pressure this mon apply is too good to miss out and I think everyone playing the tier can agree that it is always on our mind while building a team. not a lot to say other than it keeps clicking psychic.

Not mentioning this mon is a crime for sure since it is one of the corner stones of the tier. Its versatility is unmatched form defensive stealth rocks to offensive Z move or scarf, this mon can do it all and do it well. The defensive one checks almost all physical attackers of the tier while the offensive one makes for a great breaker. Another classic.

I enjoy playing it a lot. One of the only good Volcarona answers (if not z psychic). Kommo-o is incredible at completing defensive cores, it got some neat options that can basically answer all the needs of a team. Defensive Roar is the "new" thing that convinced me to slap it on almost everything, with spikes support this set is so dangerous. Great with the classic magearna or heatran. It can even fill the role of set up sweeper with Z clanging scales or even sub+belly drum on HO. Definitely a nice pick.

/ I think we all are aware of its potential now. The popularisation of Future sight is the only good thing gen8 did for me. Future sight is deadly and a good way to progress through the game, melting Toxapex and punishing any psychic resist with scald, twave or flamethrower. Ice beam is also nice vs Gliscor. Moreover, checking fighting types and Charizard x is a blessing, especially in the current metagame.

How could I not see its potential?! Another influence of SSOU I guess. Huge punisher vs those latias+gliscor+chansey build that dwell the ladder and knock off+ice stabs is a nice offensive combo. Sword dance Z moves are great alternatives too, foul play is a nice counter to sd kartana and is a nuclear Z while dig is a great lure vs Toxa/Heatran/Magearna.

I'm talking about the OG greninja, protean. Dismantle all those heatran+fini/bulu core, infinite options, and a great spikes user. A nice lure vs Toxapex and Magearna as well. This mon clearly got it all thanks to its coverage and speed making it difficult to anticipate which set greninja is running, is it physical, or special? what are its attacks? I don't know, something makes it just so enjoyable to play.

After the frog, the toad. You all need to test it out. While being a counter to those teams relying on rotom wash or Koko to pivot, it has a great utility niche in the meta with stealth rocks, knock-off, scald...and being a great status absorber with refresh or rest. It can switch into heatran as well and create some 50/50 against battle-bound greninja which I like. I had trouble using it at first both in team build and ingame, but once I adopted it, it did not let me down.

honorable mentions:



What current cores do you find strong and/or fun to use?
+: greninja will set up spikes and kill everything that can remove them with Z grass knot and ice beam: Z knot for Tapu Fini or Rotom Wash, ice beam for Tornadus and Landorus. Kommo-o will abuse the presence of spikes with roar and complete the hazard core with stealth rocks.

++: just a fun core based on sticky webs (I've been trying to make this strategy work for so looooong!! don't use it, it is garbage). Ribombee is obviously the setter. Manaphy profits from the speed drop and can break the opposition thanks to tail glow. Bisharp is our way to punish defog and a huge breaker with a nuclear sucker punch and Z move. Rindo berry on Manaphy to not get swept by opposing serperior.


Do you like the current metagame, or find it to be well-balanced? Why or why not?
I think I do. It is crazy to think that this metagame is so close to being a nightmare of broken Pokemon but manages to find a balance with dedicated answers for precise threats. The diversity in build is also unmatched with almost every playstyle being viable which is appreciable and impressive. Creativity and exploring new sets/combinations to create your own teams are what drive me to continue playing this tier(especially when the strategy I was theorizing works). Some mons stand out of course like Kartana, Volcarona or Tapu lele but almost none are unbalanced for me.
about :
The only one that can deserve something is Volcarona, in my opinion, it is at the limit of broken. This mon is stupidly good: access to one of the best set-up moves in the game, access to an item like z moves and impressive coverage letting it pick every single one of its checks. Seeing how well the sub-swarm set does, one can argue that Volcarona does not need coverage but only time to fully set up. Z moves are the thing that really pushes it over the edge, it is just a nuclear bomb shell OHKOing almost everything that would eat a bug buzz or a psychic at +1. I wish we will have a tiering survey lol (why I'm asking for these when we did not even have a viability ranking update for years).
For those mentioning the stealth rocks weakness, I can only say that it has never been that easy to remove hazards in any gen. Between magic bounce, the wide-distributed defog, and the rare rapid spin I don't think hazards are an argument to present Volcarona as just a regular pokemon in the metagame.

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

about :
The only one that can deserve something is Volcarona, in my opinion, it is at the limit of broken. This mon is stupidly good: access to one of the best set-up moves in the game, access to an item like z moves and impressive coverage letting it pick every single one of its checks. Seeing how well the sub-swarm set does, one can argue that Volcarona does not need coverage but only time to fully set up. Z moves are the thing that really pushes it over the edge, it is just a nuclear bomb shell OHKOing almost everything that would eat a bug buzz or a psychic at +1. I wish we will have a tiering survey lol (why I'm asking for these when we did not even have a viability ranking update for years).
For those mentioning the stealth rocks weakness, I can only say that it has never been that easy to remove hazards in any gen. Between magic bounce, the wide-distributed defog, and the rare rapid spin I don't think hazards are an argument to present Volcarona as just a regular pokemon in the metagame.

I agree with what you said about Volc and I thought that it could be worthwhile to link to this video regarding Volcarona that BKC released today. BKC was talking about Volc across generations and not just in SM, but I think that much of what he said is applicable. SM OU is my favorite tier and I also think that it's beautiful how a tier filled such powerful options has settled in a way that is somehow pretty balanced, so I'm not going to be picketing for Volc, or anything else, to be banned really. However, I do think that it's good to acknowledge that the potential "broken" nature of Volc has more to do with a philosophical perspective on tiering than it does with the sheer viability and effectiveness of Volc. I know that "philosophical perspective on tiering" is kind of an absurd platitude to throw out there in the context of something like Pokemon, and BKC explains the idea much better in his video than I can, but to me, the general problem with Volc is more how it warps what you need to do to build and play around it to avoid losing on the spot. I get that something similar can be said about Shift Gear Magearna but Mag is such a defining part of the tier and its defensive sets in some ways feel to me like they hold the tier together in a healthier spot, and I don't think that anyone could make an argument saying the same thing for Volc. Volc does offer some defensive utility, especially with the potential of Flame Body burns, but for the most part, Volc just either sets up and sweeps or it doesn't. I know that by this point, people are accustomed to Volc being the "matchup moth" that it is, and like I said, I am personally not saying that something needs to be done about Volc because the tier is great with its inclusion, but I also feel like just kind of saying "Things have always been that way so it's fine" isn't great reasoning. I apologize if that seems like a strawman but I have gotten the feeling that some people are more accepting of Volc because of historical precedent. I think that what it really boils down to is how you think that tiering should be approached; Volc isn't an overly centralizing part of SM found on every team and it doesn't just sweep every game it's in, but it is always a threat to if it gets the right matchup or some timely luck. For example, in this SPL game from a few weeks ago, Lusa builds up a fairly substantial lead on umbry, only to be instantly swept by Volc, presumably in part because of the full para on their Heatran. I know that Tran isn't really a check to Volc and that game may not be the best example, because sometimes games featuring an HO team just kind of go that way, but it does illustrate the dynamic that Volc introduces to the tier - its potential to just win games on the spot without offering much value to the tier otherwise.


In a similar vein, I want to quickly share my thoughts on Manaphy - Rain kind of feels similar to me as Volc does in the context of how it can be matchup-fishy and sometimes Rain just wins on the spot. Now I know that at this point, a team really can't be considered solid unless it accounts for Rain and I've heard people like z0m say before that being weak to Rain is primarily lazy team building since you can just do things like slot Energy Ball onto Mega-Zam and largely be alright against it. However, I've also heard people like Empo say that Manaphy feels like one of the most restricting mons in the tier and how its presence makes teams weak to Rain when they would otherwise be fine (I remember Empo saying on a call with ima and some others that Manaphy is the only part of SM that he would want to potentially be banned, but that was a while ago so his thoughts may have changed, and I don't want to speak for him). I will refer back to this post that Rae made in this thread a while ago because I think that it does a great job of explaining the impact that Manaphy has on the tier. KaiserKaiba also previously made a post in this thread that discusses the potentially problem-attic aspects of both Manaphy and Volcarona. Essentially, Manaphy isn't really a threat to just sweep through teams the way that Volc can, but it is bulky and strong enough to blast through integral parts of the opposing team, which later results in it crumbling to the likes of Mega-Swampert and Ash-Greninja. Without Manaphy, bulkier teams that have things like Chansey and Ferro would be pretty well prepared to take on Rain, but since Manaphy can blow past them (which is a testament to how insane Z-Surf is in the Rain at +3), it can often make subsequent sweeps by Pert or Gren all but inevitable. Manaphy is also just bulky enough to prevent it from being revenge killed by some common options (as Rae outlined in their post), allowing it to frequently pick up another KO and blowing an often insurmountable hole in the opposing team. So it reiterate, I'm not saying that Rain is completely broken but it does feel somewhat similar to Volcarona to me in that it's a "hyper-tuned" threat (I guess in relation to other offensive threats, especially in older generations, as BKC described in his video) that puts an immense amount of strain on opposing teams. I also know that people sometimes disagree on what part of Rain is the most problematic, if they view it as a problem at all, but to me, it's Manaphy, even though Manaphy isn't as "deadly" as Ash-Gren or Mega-Pert on its own, if that makes sense.

I hope that this post was at least somewhat intelligible; it was kind of difficult for me to try to get across my exact thoughts. Overall, it comes down to how you want to view tiering, and again, I'm not saying that tiering action needs to be done on SM or anything. Volcarona and Manaphy (more as a result of how Manaphy opens up the rest of Rain teams) feel to me like the most "unhealthy" parts of the metagame in that they don't offer a ton of value to the tier other than the potential to just sweep on the spot or open up sometimes unpreventable sweeps from their teammates (again, in terms of Manaphy). Manaphy and Volc also have enough variety in their sets to be able to pick and choose their checks (Volc can run Z-Psychic for things like Pex, while HP Ground is already pretty much standard for Tran, and Manaphy can have Energy Ball for Gastrodon, for example), so it's not like there are easy ways to reliably account for them in the builder. The dynamics that accompany Volc and Manaphy don't really sit well with me but I also get the perspective that since they aren't completely dominant threats or anything like that, they shouldn't be considered ban-worthy. Anyway, those are just some random thoughts from an SM fan, and I hope that anyone who reads this has a nice day

 

[Fancy1]

hello, I’ve been playing sm ou quite a bit recently and as of right now, one of my favorite gens I’ve ever played!

on a more competitive discussion I’ve been having a fascination with the sets that Omari P (Thunder P) cooked up before he was banned (for good reason but the dude had some heat sets ngl) anyways av mew caught my eye because of its tendency to usually run defensive sets that take advantage of its wide coverage of utility moves, although this set takes advantage of its wide coverage moves that it can hit the tier with


Mew @ Assault Vest (maybe even expert belt?)
Ability: Synchronize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast / Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt / Energyball / Psychic
- Earth Power

does this set find itself anywhere good in ou? I think base 100s across the board is nothing to scoff at, even uninvested mew hits around 320 in terms of spdef . I’ve been wanting to build a team around this and was looking for advice, thanks in advance :)

 

[SPQP]

hello, I’ve been playing sm ou quite a bit recently and as of right now, one of my favorite gens I’ve ever played!

on a more competitive discussion I’ve been having a fascination with the sets that Omari P (Thunder P) cooked up before he was banned (for good reason but the dude had some heat sets ngl) anyways av mew caught my eye because of its tendency to usually run defensive sets that take advantage of its wide coverage of utility moves, although this set takes advantage of its wide coverage moves that it can hit the tier with


Mew @ Assault Vest (maybe even expert belt?)
Ability: Synchronize
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast / Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt / Energyball / Psychic
- Earth Power

does this set find itself anywhere good in ou? I think base 100s across the board is nothing to scoff at, even uninvested mew hits around 320 in terms of spdef you can switch into lele pretty consistently. I’ve been wanting to build a team around this and was looking for advice, thanks in advance :)

definitely vest > belt. niche psychic to run over but could be worth it for fire blast and earth power. lele can only check steels ~70% of the time and can't do anything to.
meanwhile

252 SpA Mew Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 178-210 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

it's not perfect but it's a chunk. pretty damaging to a mag switching in to absorb a STAB psychic or whatever. honestly the fact that this is unexpected is an advantage in an of itself.

it needs help dealing with ttar though. obviously lele has a 70% accurate answer to it but what's 0 physdef mew gonna do?

252 SpA Mew Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 102-120 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- 15.1% chance to 3HKO

i'm pretty tired rn and will probably elaborate in the morning but yeah run ferro or skarm or something with it. ferro also stuffs gren which is good :)

EDIT: might be good idk. i'd have to try it but it resists both of gren's stabs, justified helps against the other darks, and it'll break lando-t if you choose not to run ice beam.
EDIT 2 (sorry i'm braindead LMFAOO): keldeo ALSO loves the same hazards your mew wants. so ferro. ferro and keldeo are a great team we all know this. mew can help assuage the ferro fighting weakness even more! and mew will 2HKO pex which keldeo HATES ( 252 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 174-206 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO )
edit 3: hey remember BW rain psyspam? similar principle

 

[Fancy1]

tldr mew got that dog in him

woah thanks for the fast response! I’ll def try a core of mew ferro and keldeo for the team is was making, I think unexpected offensive mew will def catch a few mons sleeping, only issue is that you cant fit coverage for everything but i suppose it’s tailored to the team structure and what the team is weak too, thanks a lot though really appreciate the help :)

 

[MangoSteak]

definitely vest > belt. niche psychic to run over but could be worth it for fire blast and earth power. lele can only check steels ~70% of the time and can't do anything to.
meanwhile

252 SpA Mew Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 178-210 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

it's not perfect but it's a chunk. pretty damaging to a mag switching in to absorb a STAB psychic or whatever. honestly the fact that this is unexpected is an advantage in an of itself.

it needs help dealing with ttar though. obviously lele has a 70% accurate answer to it but what's 0 physdef mew gonna do?

252 SpA Mew Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 102-120 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- 15.1% chance to 3HKO

i'm pretty tired rn and will probably elaborate in the morning but yeah run ferro or skarm or something with it. ferro also stuffs gren which is good :)

EDIT: might be good idk. i'd have to try it but it resists both of gren's stabs, justified helps against the other darks, and it'll break lando-t if you choose not to run ice beam.
EDIT 2 (sorry i'm braindead LMFAOO): keldeo ALSO loves the same hazards your mew wants. so ferro. ferro and keldeo are a great team we all know this. mew can help assuage the ferro fighting weakness even more! and mew will 2HKO pex which keldeo HATES ( 252 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 174-206 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO )
edit 3: hey remember BW rain psyspam? similar principle

Sup,

to clear up your first miscnception right away, due to meta changes mew is mostly used as a suicide lead with a set like this:

Mew @ Mental Herb
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 224 HP / 64 Def / 220 Spe
Timid/Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Ice Beam/Explosion
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave

Therefore people will, depending on team structure know that your mew will tank 1dark pulse from full,
secondly

mew still loses the 1v1 against the most common special attackers in the meta:

Greninja and Tapu Lele

VS Ninja
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Mew: 222-264 (65.1 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mew Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 216-256 (75.7 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

VS Lele
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Mew: 169-201 (49.5 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Psychic Terrain: 161-190 (47.2 - 55.7%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Mew Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Lele: 89-105 (31.6 - 37.3%) -- 86.3% chance to 3HKO


and your set can't reliably kill toxapex:

VS Toxapex

252 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 138-164 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery


VS Tapu Koko

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Mew in Electric Terrain: 178-210 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mew Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 206-244 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


the assault vest gives you no merrit at all besides maybe confusing your opponent for 1 turn.

It doesn't let you beat anything.
and it removes mews extensive support move pool, the thing that makes up it's ou nieche in the first place.

 

[MangoSteak]

definitely vest > belt. niche psychic to run over but could be worth it for fire blast and earth power. lele can only check steels ~70% of the time and can't do anything to.
meanwhile

252 SpA Mew Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 178-210 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

it's not perfect but it's a chunk. pretty damaging to a mag switching in to absorb a STAB psychic or whatever. honestly the fact that this is unexpected is an advantage in an of itself.

it needs help dealing with ttar though. obviously lele has a 70% accurate answer to it but what's 0 physdef mew gonna do?

252 SpA Mew Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 102-120 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- 15.1% chance to 3HKO

i'm pretty tired rn and will probably elaborate in the morning but yeah run ferro or skarm or something with it. ferro also stuffs gren which is good :)

EDIT: might be good idk. i'd have to try it but it resists both of gren's stabs, justified helps against the other darks, and it'll break lando-t if you choose not to run ice beam.
EDIT 2 (sorry i'm braindead LMFAOO): keldeo ALSO loves the same hazards your mew wants. so ferro. ferro and keldeo are a great team we all know this. mew can help assuage the ferro fighting weakness even more! and mew will 2HKO pex which keldeo HATES ( 252 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 174-206 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO )
edit 3: hey remember BW rain psyspam? similar principle

Sup, the magearna set you made up with max hp and 0 special defense doesn't exist.

If a defensive magearna doesn't run an AV as it's item it will be specialy defensive.

The only set that sometimes just runs max HP is the Calm Mind Painstplit/Calm Mind 3 Attacks set.

and lele just klicks moon blast twice vs Tyranitar.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 290-344 (77.5 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


in short AV mew is not a good idea.
You suddenly have a weak offensive psychic type that doesn't beat anything and the "bulk" it gains isn't worth it

 

[Arcanie345678]

https://pokepast.es/1621f55be0d3f4ad hi, could someone help me with this team, i have to use the same pokemons

 

[Clementine]

https://pokepast.es/1621f55be0d3f4ad hi, could someone help me with this team, i have to use the same pokemons

Hello! Your team has quite a few flaws, the sets you chose for each Pokemon aren't optimal at all
Most of these aren't OU viable at all, would you mind giving us a bit more context, like the format you're planning on using this team in, what you think you're gonna face, etc?

 

[1LDK]

Hello people, the name is 1LDK, I got into gen 7 around 2 months ago, and I wanted to share some thoughts on what I have seen, I have been lurking around 1450 constantly due to low metagame knowledge but good enough skill to not be a clown, so as I said, I wanna share opinions on some of the things that I have seen so far

This bunny has a hidden stat or something, I swear to god I have only seen Hyper offense/offense when I played with her, which is fine because it's free ELO thanks to her amazing good matchup against it, I'm in a mix bag with Fake Out, sometimes I feel like I would be dead without it, and sometimes I feel like I'm running 3 moves instead of 4, but seriously good mon holy shit

I was a lurker around at the end of the gen where some people considered this ban worthy, but I haven't seen her a lot, I like the all out attacker set because breaking stall by returning to monke is beautiful

cancer, plain and simple, give 1 free turn to this motherfucker and the game is over, each time I see it on team preview my soul dies, it runs like 5 different sets with the same moves but its ways to approach it are so different that its unfun to play against. I will admit that I have been using the Z-Tailwind meme set and its so funny because Kartana is so naturally broken that it works, Z moves am I right boys?

This thing generates a new controversy every gen is in, in my case, I like to pair this with stuff like Mega Diancie, Tapu Lele or Magearna, too bad it's useless in mid-game thanks to rocks, but if you can get a free turn, you can just say "fuck it we ball" launch a Z-move and do a billion to non blobs

+ I hate these 2, you know its coming, you have seen the same sweep a million times, but here it comes, 1 SD, and gg, always, low ladder players will use this in mid-game, so it has a bigger change to fail, high level players literally play 4v6 until they can start rolling

and I'm unlucky and when I use protean, I get protean checks, and when I use ash, I get ash checks, but its very easy for gren to do some work in the field, especially in rain, I would say this is even worse than Kartana, but I have bias against it, so it doesn't count

the AV set is a fucking god send, it magically patches most flaws and gets me the freest volt switch imaginable, not to mention that whenever in trouble, you can just throw one Hello Kitty cannon and kill the fucker in front of you

I feel like this is a middle ground beetween Volcarona and Kartana where if you give it one free turn it ruins your game, but unlike volcarona, its usefull in midgame where you can just spam subs or spam leaf storm, glare is maddening also, but unlike Kartana, its more forgiving and requires more skill to set up, super annoying mon tho

this thing is the goat hazard remover, that is until you see a ferro and/or Lando T, but it's strong, its HP is too low, imagine her with 10 more points, straight to A+, it also helps that Mega-Sableye just dies inside watching her on the team preview, and honestly, only ferro and chansey actually do like to switch into her, the rest is getting smacked hard

And Honestly I could go but don't really wanna, what mon makes you mad in this meta

 

[YubelVT]

I'm relatively bad (hovering around 1400) but I still enjoy this tier immensely. My favorite mon to use has got to be Thundurus-Therian. He's just so obscenely strong and sometimes just kills a team instantly after a plot

 

[YubelVT]

I have no idea how to improve or analyze my own replays actually. I'm stuck between going on tears one day (in the 1400s) and then losing to every single dogshit team I see the next day, dropping to the low 1300s again. I have what I think is a well built team. I'm just not improving at all. How do I get better.

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

I have no idea how to improve or analyze my own replays actually. I'm stuck between going on tears one day (in the 1400s) and then losing to every single dogshit team I see the next day, dropping to the low 1300s again. I have what I think is a well built team. I'm just not improving at all. How do I get better.

Hey, I'm just some washed and retired former player who was never really relevant, but I had laddered up into the 1700s/top 50 with a GXE over 80 (I understand that laddering never really means much, especially in older gens, and it's not like my peak was even that impressive, so I'm not trying to flex; I'm just trying to offer a little context for my experience), and I think that I might be able to offer some input about what helped me improve. I guess that the short, and likely less helpful, answer is to just keep playing. I feel like even "ineffective" or "less productive" laddering is going to slowly lead to improvement as you become more familiar with the tier and different sets, but there are some things that you can do to likely expedite your improvement.

The first thing that I would recommend is to try using some of the sample teams. I know that you said that you feel like you're using a well-built team, and you may be, but I also think that SM OU is a difficult tier to build in. SM OU is a beautiful tier, and it's personally my favorite, but the very high relative power level makes it difficult to build teams, especially when you're newer to the tier, that can hold up against established and fine-tuned playstyles, like Rain or Psyspam. It's very important to learn how to pilot your team against those threatening playstyles, especially while laddering, and you also need to know what lines you can use to respond to certain prominent threats like Mega-Medicham, various Kartana and Magearna sets, Mega-Mawile, and Hawlucha (particularly on that common Koko-Kyurem-Black-Hawlucha team). I feel like it's easiest to learn those matchups by using a solid sample team that should have decent options against much of the metagame. This is also just personal preference but I think that using one of the sample teams that is a bulky offense featuring a defensive backbone of defensive Landorus-T, defensive Magearna, and Rotom-Wash, who can all pivot into your breakers or a cleaner/sweeper, is one of the most intuitive ways to navigate the tier. After you become more experienced with certain threats that you need to address, and how to leverage the strengths of the mons that you would like to use, it becomes easier to build your own effective teams.

Regarding what you said about analyzing replays, I also think that's a great way to improve. I used to save replays of pretty much every game I played and later obsessively go over them using the damage calc (which if you aren't already, I highly recommend using every time you play) to try to see what was the optimal decision I could have made on each turn. That really isn't necessary, and I think that I did it more as a result of having some weird compulsion to try to play "cleanly" or mistake free (which isn't really a realistic standard to expect anyone to constantly achieve), but it was helpful for me to take my time and go over replays to think about how different decisions could have played out. I think that it's a good idea as well to do the same thing but with higher level replays from tournaments like Smogon Tour or SPL. Also, one of the GOATs, BKC, made an excellent video on how to analyze a battle which honestly kind of directly addresses what you were asking better than I ever could, so maybe I should have just linked to it instead of writing everything that I did lol. Either way, I really recommend that you watch/listen to what he had to say in that video.

The last thing I'll mention is that I can still remember when I started playing competitively years ago and I languished on the lower ladder. Everyone kind of has to start like that, so it doesn't mean that you're doing anything "wrong" or that there is a problem, especially if you're newer to the tier. The most fun I think I ever had with playing was when I saw myself improving, I began to feel like I truly understood how to play the tier at higher levels, and managed to hang with/take some games off of some renowned players (who obviously were much better players than me, but it felt really good to know that I could at least occasionally approach their level of play), so try to enjoy the process of improving and breaking through that first real plateau you reach. Good luck and try not to stress it, since your improvement will come in time with effort and intentionality.

 

[YubelVT]

I honestly think Thundurus-Therian is criminally underrated in the meta. I don't have results to back this up but I do have a few things to talk about in regards to my boy.

• He's an *incredible* screens abuser. This isn't really an argument, I understand, but at +2, Thundurus-Therian does insane damage to most of the metagame, and when he's harder to answer due to screens this is an incredible amount of pressure.
• He has a pretty good defensive profile. Ground immunity + electric immunity + flying and fighting resist means he is a decent check to a lot of prominent threats. He beats non-scarf landorus-t 100% of the time with HP Ice, for example. Along with this, it just beats toxapex straight up.
• He's not really a one trick pony either. You can run scarf on volt turn (that's probably a meme) or rain, Electrium Double Dance or Fightinium NP on other teams. I do want to say that HP Ice is generally better than HP Flying, at least in my experience.

I want to make this clear, I am not saying that Thundy is a secret top tier, his flaws are extremely notable and do hold him back quite a bit. That speed tier leaves something to be desired and it really can't touch Assault Vest Magearna without multiple turns of setup and, while his defensive profile is pretty good, he's still not the bulkiest thing ever and can be overwhelmed by resisted attacks, unlike something like defensive Zapdos. Overall this is my plea to consider Thundurus-Therian when building teams in the future because I really do think he has unexplored potential.

 

[fortunate sun]

I honestly think Thundurus-Therian is criminally underrated in the meta. I don't have results to back this up but I do have a few things to talk about in regards to my boy.

• He's an *incredible* screens abuser. This isn't really an argument, I understand, but at +2, Thundurus-Therian does insane damage to most of the metagame, and when he's harder to answer due to screens this is an incredible amount of pressure.
• He has a pretty good defensive profile. Ground immunity + electric immunity + flying and fighting resist means he is a decent check to a lot of prominent threats. He beats non-scarf landorus-t 100% of the time with HP Ice, for example. Along with this, it just beats toxapex straight up.
• He's not really a one trick pony either. You can run scarf on volt turn (that's probably a meme) or rain, Electrium Double Dance or Fightinium NP on other teams. I do want to say that HP Ice is generally better than HP Flying, at least in my experience.

I want to make this clear, I am not saying that Thundy is a secret top tier, his flaws are extremely notable and do hold him back quite a bit. That speed tier leaves something to be desired and it really can't touch Assault Vest Magearna without multiple turns of setup and, while his defensive profile is pretty good, he's still not the bulkiest thing ever and can be overwhelmed by resisted attacks, unlike something like defensive Zapdos. Overall this is my plea to consider Thundurus-Therian when building teams in the future because I really do think he has unexplored potential.

Thundy-T has been pretty interesting to me for awhile. It's a competent special wallbreaker in a tier that is somewhat limited in them (thank pex and chansey) and as you mentioned has a couple different Z moves it can run in service of that.

It's seen usage mostly on HO, but I've also seen it on some very interesting slower comps that use it as more of a pivot.

He has a pretty good defensive profile. Ground immunity + electric immunity + flying and fighting resist means he is a decent check to a lot of prominent threats. He beats non-scarf landorus-t 100% of the time with HP Ice, for example.

I think its most interesting attribute is easily this. In the current state of SM I think there's becoming more and more of a place for these kind of pokemon that on paper have a weak defensive stature but can come in and snatch momentum in on prevalent mons (see: Grassium Kartana)
Thundy is one of the most interesting of these though.

The list of high profile targets it can come in on is surprisingly long, and resisting both of Kartana's stabs in addition to the resistances you mentioned gives it a very interesting place as a pivot on faster paced teams. If rocks can be avoided it can pretty comfortably switch in to scout on a scarf set, and I don't hold the fact Z kartana can blow it up too much against it considering even the much bulkier Zapdos can die to it. Kartana is broken.

Speaking of which, it is surprisingly not awful as a defogger. It needs to be used very proactively in this role, but can come in and force out many of the tier's common rocks setters like Lando and Ferrothorn, in large part owed to its massive special attack.

It's a very uncommon trait for a mon to be able to do these and not be stonewalled by fat, but Thund has some interesting options like knock and volt switch which give it actual merit beyond removal in balance matchups - I reccommend pairing it with teammates that can deal with Mega Lati twins for this reason.

I think Helmet has some merit on it, but admittedly I'm smitten with double Z to the point id personally consider that above it lol (topic for another day). Lefties could potentially work as well but I can only see it on a sort of double defog hybrid bulky offense that attempts to be strong into fatter teams. Might be something fun to explore tbh (teambuilding comp return when)

It's a sleeper pick that definitely has a unique place in the meta - glad to talk about it

 

[gorgie]

a huge addition to mons it checks that you forgot: Hawlucha.

Especially on HOs that need a pivotal momentum switch when they play that trump card.

Great write-up otherwise though

 

[YubelVT]

a huge addition to mons it checks that you forgot: Hawlucha.

Especially on HOs that need a pivotal momentum switch when they play that trump card.

Great write-up otherwise though

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (220 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-Therian: 414-488 (138.4 - 163.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-Therian: 245-288 (81.9 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (220 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-Therian: 207-244 (69.2 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

idk about that, being 2hko'd with the standard set is not great but you could just run a bulky set

Extremely loud incorrect buzzer

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (220 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-Therian: 414-488 (138.4 - 163.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-Therian: 245-288 (81.9 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (220 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-Therian: 207-244 (69.2 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

idk about that, being 2hko'd with the standard set is not great but you could just run a bulky set

Hey, just as a heads up, the Acrobatics calcs are wrong; why did you make Acrobatics 220 base power? Acrobatics is 55 BP with an item and doubles to 110 BP without an item. It would be game breaking and likely the best move ever if it was 220 BP lol. Here are the correct calcs for Acrobatics:
252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-Therian: 104-123 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-Therian: 207-244 (69.2 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[YubelVT]

Hey, just as a heads up, the Acrobatics calcs are wrong; why did you make Acrobatics 220 base power? Acrobatics is 55 BP with an item and doubles to 110 BP without an item. It would be game breaking and likely the best move ever if it was 220 BP lol. Here are the correct calcs for Acrobatics:
252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-Therian: 104-123 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-Therian: 207-244 (69.2 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

a-
in my defense the calculator does not convey this clearly

 

[Goodbye & Thanks]

a-
in my defense the calculator does not convey this clearly

Yeah, I get what you mean. The damage just doubles without an item but sometimes you need to calc with it for specific rolls. I used to just set item to None and then it autocorrects to 110 BP, although it would be nice if clicking the Unburden box also adjusted the Acrobatics damage. Either way, it’s not a big deal.

 

[gorgie]

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (220 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-Therian: 414-488 (138.4 - 163.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-Therian: 245-288 (81.9 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (220 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus-Therian: 207-244 (69.2 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

idk about that, being 2hko'd with the standard set is not great but you could just run a bulky set

Extremely loud incorrect buzzer

now go run your same lil calcs with this spread and get back to me:

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 16 HP / 196 Def / 44 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

 

[YubelVT]

now go run your same lil calcs with this spread and get back to me:

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 16 HP / 196 Def / 44 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk

ok so those calcs were objectively incorrect because I both set acro to 110 and had no item so it was 220 base power