Metagame Sketchmons

[RajonRandom]

So I made this team in about 5 minutes and it's actually pretty fun. The major problem is that Extreme Speed mons are a huge threat. I'd like to know what do you think about it.

Sketch of thrones

First in Battle (Greninja) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Taunt
- Hydro Pump
-- I like how Greninja manages to easily setup. This one is no surprise, just setup and hit, if I am able to.

Hear me Roar (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
-- Double dancing Landorus isn't a surprise as well. Just thousand arrows instead of quake and kills. As Thousand Arrows hits anything, I put Knock Off just for hitting grass and bug mons, since Z Moves are banned.

A Faithful Friend (Chansey) (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
-- I don't know how to play w/o spin or defog and I was thinking who to put in this team to do this function. Then Chansey came in mind and the addition of spin to her is beautiful.

We do not Sow (Tapu Lele) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball
-- Just priority prevention with psystrike to hit very hard anything that doesn't resist it.

Fire and Blood (Charizard) @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- V-create
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
-- This one came when I was thinking of a physical hard hitting mon and a mega. He appeared in suggestions of PS and I put V-Create because Sacred Fire doesn't make contact. So, DD and kill. V-Create +1 can also kill Thick Fat Snorlax (as long it's has uninvested defense), after some damage.

None so Fierce (Raikou) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Steam Eruption
-- Raikou is just because I love it and wanted to use it. I thought about Tail Glow, but Steam Eruption seems more funny.

As I said above, ESmons are a huge threat. Ursaring can easily 2hko them all while only Charizard is able to ohko him without boost. Drum Lax will likely sweep the entire team if the player manages to kill Lele

 

[VCrakeV]

So I made this team in about 5 minutes and it's actually pretty fun. The major problem is that Extreme Speed mons are a huge threat. I'd like to know what do you think about it.

Sketch of thrones

First in Battle (Greninja) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Taunt
- Hydro Pump
-- I like how Greninja manages to easily setup. This one is no surprise, just setup and hit, if I am able to.

Hear me Roar (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
-- Double dancing Landorus isn't a surprise as well. Just thousand arrows instead of quake and kills. As Thousand Arrows hits anything, I put Knock Off just for hitting grass and bug mons, since Z Moves are banned.

A Faithful Friend (Chansey) (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic
-- I don't know how to play w/o spin or defog and I was thinking who to put in this team to do this function. Then Chansey came in mind and the addition of spin to her is beautiful.

We do not Sow (Tapu Lele) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psystrike
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball
-- Just priority prevention with psystrike to hit very hard anything that doesn't resist it.

Fire and Blood (Charizard) @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- V-create
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
-- This one came when I was thinking of a physical hard hitting mon and a mega. He appeared in suggestions of PS and I put V-Create because Sacred Fire doesn't make contact. So, DD and kill. V-Create +1 can also kill Thick Fat Snorlax (as long it's has uninvested defense), after some damage.

None so Fierce (Raikou) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt
- Steam Eruption
-- Raikou is just because I love it and wanted to use it. I thought about Tail Glow, but Steam Eruption seems more funny.

As I said above, ESmons are a huge threat. Ursaring can easily 2hko them all while only Charizard is able to ohko him without boost. Drum Lax will likely sweep the entire team if the player manages to kill Lele

I'm sure there are more ways to optimize this team, but one thing that stands out to me is psystrike lele. Psychic is only slightly stronger, and gives you the option of blue flare, volt switch, or virtually any other move.

 

[Roldski32]

I think there's some little misunderstanding here.

Z-Moves banned actually means you can't used it on the moveslot . You can still used it with Z-Crystal and a corresponding move

Example

Tapu Bulu with Bloom Doom on the moveslot is banned.

Tapu Bulu
Ability: Grassy Surge
- Bloom Doom

Tapu Bulu with Grassium Z and Horn Leech is allowed and can used Bloom Doom.

Tapu Bulu @ Grassium Z
Ability: Grassy Surge
- Horn Leech

 

[anaconja]

I'm sure there are more ways to optimize this team, but one thing that stands out to me is psystrike lele. Psychic is only slightly stronger, and gives you the option of blue flare, volt switch, or virtually any other move.

Psystrike 2HKOs Chansey after rocks, which is amazing:
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 325-384 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Psychic Terrain: 261-307 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
I'd use both Psystrike and Psychic just to hit both physically and specially defensive mons, though, replacing Thunderbolt since it only hits Slowbro and Celesteela, and not for enough damage anyway.

As for the actual team, here are some edits I would make:
Greninja is a suicide lead; it doesn't really need U-Turn. I'd use the moves Stealth Rock, Spikes, Taunt, and Ice Beam to hit common Flying, Ground, Grass, and Dragon types like Landorus-Therian, Zygarde, Pinsir-Mega, and Tapu Bulu.
I'd use Z-Fly on Landorus-Therian to OHKO Tangrowth and other bulky TArrows resists.
Chansey isn't actually a very good spinner, because it can be pressured easily by physical attackers, and opponents will often switch in their Ghost-types to try to block Seismic Toss when you try to Rapid Spin. I'd use Transform here and replace Raikou with a Defogger or Spinner.
Charizard-Mega-X is fine, though I'd use Thunder Punch to hit Tapu Fini better.
Raikou is kind of bad since it's outclassed by Tapu Koko: the latter's faster, has an extra STAB, and hits harder, thanks to Electric Terrain:
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 135-160 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Electric Terrain: 178-211 (52.1 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But since you need hazard control, I'd replace it with a physically defensive spinner, such as Tangrowth or Toxapex.

 

[Funbot28]

Not a lot of discussion going on so let me leave a few thoughts on the current meta:

Sticky Webs (and Hyper Offense in general) is still quite strong even with the move being unsketchable as setters such as Ribombee, Slurpuff, and Shuckle still prove to be reliable setters that can support threatening offensive mons such as Mega Pinsir, Blacephalon, and Magearna (although Serperior still proves to be a thorn to the style). Speaking of the aforementioned threats, Mega Pinsir and Blacephalon really stick out as being probably the two most threatening mons in the tier, where the former can easily clean teams with +2 Aerilate Espeeds alongside its great coverage and the ladder can snowball with the combination of Beast Boost + Tail Glow or coverage moves like Secret Sword that enable it to break through its counters. Serperior is still pretty annoying as well with its Fire + Grass coverage and the decline in Heatran usage which used to be one of its biggest answers due to the rise in Sand (although Mega Pinsir thankfully still checks it).

I still feel that Extreme Speed may be a bit too overbearing, enabling certain threats like Snorlax and Mega Pinsir to clean too easily at times. Although, I woudn't mind suspecting the aforementioned mons if needed be as I get that the move is not broken on every threat that usually runs it.

Two HO teams to ladder with:

https://pokepast.es/54b09f4067f72f50

https://pokepast.es/410e4ed970662d86

Also expect VR soon (tm)

 

[Fissure]

Alright, so the USUM VR is finally up! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sketchmons-om-of-the-month.3587743/#post-7099858 (If you have trouble finding it) It would not have happened so soon without the help from Funbot28, Jrdn, Megazard, and OM room. Show them some love! Next on the agenda are new sample teams and then the role compendium. With that being said, if you have any teams that you want to share and believe them to be sample team quality (I'm looking at you council and snake draft players), message them to me. The selected teams from the applicants will be added to the new sample teams. Thank you all for your continued support!

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Some comments for Sketchmons VR.

Diggersby and Snorlax should switch places. Idk about others but in my experience, Diggersby is the superior Espeeder than Snorlax. Faster, stronger and better coverage, Diggersby is basically near unwallable with the right set. In a meta like Sketchmons, setting up Belly Drum is way harder (especially with a 30 Speed mon) and in terms of raw power, Snorlax doesn’t come close to Diggersby.

Galvantula (Sleep Powder as a sketch move) unranked -> B+. Why? Because it’s one of the best lead in the meta, with access to Sticky Web AND 98% Accuracy Sleep Powder is super excellent. I don’t see anyone carrying a Sticky Web team so people probably don’t see the potential of this mon.

Alakazam from C+ -> somewhere in B. Seriously this is a very good revenge killer. It’s fast and Mind Blown is very powerful, giving surprise KO on mons. Idk which is better, Mimikyu or this but I’d pick this.

There are more that I want to comment (like Golem-Alola being C+ and how V-create isn’t recommended in Zard-X) but I need more testing.

 

[tzop]

lopunny mega learn encore you don't need to sketch it

 

[ESN 64]

Excuse me, i have a bit of a problem... i do not know how to put a sketched move on, nothing is showing up.

Nevermind, i found out
But it still should not be labeled Illegal

 

[Brodaha]

Nevermind, i found out
But it still should not be labeled Illegal

It's hard to show it as legal when you can only get one move you don't normally get. Also, please use the edit button to avoid double posting.

 

[ESN 64]

It's hard to show it as legal when you can only get one move you don't normally get. Also, please use the edit button to avoid double posting.

Okay, but i still think you should do it like with Smeargle where the sketched moves and natural moves are separate, but still viewable without searching for it

 

[OM]

Okay, but i still think you should do it like with Smeargle where the sketched moves and natural moves are separate, but still viewable without searching for it

This only works because smeargle can sketch every move (or at least 4), whereas the mons here can only sketch one.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Personally I believe Extreme Speed should be banned from being Sketchable. It almost invalidates hyper offensive teams, as Mega Mawile and Diggersby can easily revenge kill your entire team. Yes, Tapu Lele can negate it, but that thing is super frail on the physical side and doesn't have the best defensive typing, so it doesn't have much time to switch in. Your opponent could also have Tapu Koko or Bulu, which are both great mons in their own right here - the former can use STAB Bolt Strike boosted by E terrain, the latter can use either Dragon Dance or switch Wood Hammer for Power Whip which trades accuracy for no recoil. Honestly, Extreme Speed just makes the meta much less enjoyable to play IMO.

 

[ESN 64]

Personally I believe Extreme Speed should be banned from being Sketchable. It almost invalidates hyper offensive teams, as Mega Mawile and Diggersby can easily revenge kill your entire team. Yes, Tapu Lele can negate it, but that thing is super frail on the physical side and doesn't have the best defensive typing, so it doesn't have much time to switch in. Your opponent could also have Tapu Koko or Bulu, which are both great mons in their own right here - the former can use STAB Bolt Strike boosted by E terrain, the latter can use either Dragon Dance or switch Wood Hammer for Power Whip which trades accuracy for no recoil. Honestly, Extreme Speed just makes the meta much less enjoyable to play IMO.

However, now pokemon have access to moves like spiky shield and banefull bunker, so it is very much counterable

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

However, now pokemon have access to moves like spiky shield and banefull bunker, so it is very much counterable

Those moves only really fit on passive walls. Most offensive Pokemon would rather have the boosting moves, upgraded STAB moves or extra coverage.

 

[ESN 64]

Those moves only really fit on passive walls. Most offensive Pokemon would rather have the boosting moves, upgraded STAB moves or extra coverage.

What about something like Octillery? It already has great coverage and good attacking stats, it would definitely be using shields given the chance

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

What about something like Octillery? It already has great coverage and good attacking stats, it would definitely be using shields given the chance

Octillery is unviable, it's too slow, not very bulky and just flat out outclassed by stuff like Greninja. Greninja...would honestly get more mileage from something like Tail Glow or Water Spout than Spiky Shield or Baneful Bunker.

 

[drampa's grandpa]

However, now pokemon have access to moves like spiky shield and banefull bunker, so it is very much counterable

Attempting to chip an Extreme Speeder with Spiky Shield or Baneful Bunker requires them to already be at low health to be effective, and still isn't very reliable as they can boost on predicted protection turns and plow right through your would be check and the rest of your team.

There is honestly no universal check to Espeeders other than Tapu Lele, while Skarmory stands out as the best counter to the majority of common espeeders, leaving aside Marowak and the rare Golem-A.

I personally find it overcentralizing, given its utility versus offensive playstyles and moveslot compression on pokemon like Pinsir-Mega. Unlike most moves if you don't have a dedicated check to the specific espeed user you're facing you will frequently be 6-0'd by them; most moves that enable sweeps are vulnerable to either or both of priority and speed based revenge killers, while espeed clearly bypasses that unless you have a faster espeeder or Tapu Lele (or like a Bruxish or Tsareena but they're ass). It also isn't that vulnerable to being walled thanks to the absurd power the mons that use it possess, the moveslot compression again allowing stuff like Pinsir to run a 4th move that isn't a weaker priority move, and the fact that Espeed is actually a decently powerful move.

None of this is meant to imply that Espeeders have no checks or that a single move should necessarily have universal answers (which people sometimes seem to imply with regards to Espeed both here and in STABmons and which seems ridiculous to me) but the extreme ease with which it fits on physically offensive mons and the extreme utility it provides versus the majority of the meta strike me as both impractical to prep for outside of Lele and overcentralizing.

In terms of the metagame I think Extreme Speed being an offensive answer to offense in an offensive metagame with few answers on offense (try saying that five times fast) which makes it difficult to build teams without a dedicated few mons / types of mons. This is especially constraining when the best and most comprehensive anti-priority mon (Lele ofc) prevents you from using priority yourself, which cripples your ability to sweep and to revenge kill. Extreme Speed warps the entire meta around it imo, and I can't see how that would possibly be healthy (although I can see how people would disagree).

I also think Lele is banworthy, but that's a topic for another post (and please don't ban Lelelelele without banning Espeed lel). I honestly wrote "except for Lele" or some variation of so many times in this post it's kinda ridiculous.

Sorry if this is fractured or incoherent I wrote it on mobile :3

 

[Sniya]

Attempting to chip an Extreme Speeder with Spiky Shield or Baneful Bunker requires them to already be at low health to be effective, and still isn't very reliable as they can boost on predicted protection turns and plow right through your would be check and the rest of your team.

There is honestly no universal check to Espeeders other than Tapu Lele, while Skarmory stands out as the best counter to the majority of common espeeders, leaving aside Marowak and the rare Golem-A.

I personally find it overcentralizing, given its utility versus offensive playstyles and moveslot compression on pokemon like Pinsir-Mega. Unlike most moves if you don't have a dedicated check to the specific espeed user you're facing you will frequently be 6-0'd by them; most moves that enable sweeps are vulnerable to either or both of priority and speed based revenge killers, while espeed clearly bypasses that unless you have a faster espeeder or Tapu Lele (or like a Bruxish or Tsareena but they're ass). It also isn't that vulnerable to being walled thanks to the absurd power the mons that use it possess, the moveslot compression again allowing stuff like Pinsir to run a 4th move that isn't a weaker priority move, and the fact that Espeed is actually a decently powerful move.

None of this is meant to imply that Espeeders have no checks or that a single move should necessarily have universal answers (which people sometimes seem to imply with regards to Espeed both here and in STABmons and which seems ridiculous to me) but the extreme ease with which it fits on physically offensive mons and the extreme utility it provides versus the majority of the meta strike me as both impractical to prep for outside of Lele and overcentralizing.

In terms of the metagame I think Extreme Speed being an offensive answer to offense in an offensive metagame with few answers on offense (try saying that five times fast) which makes it difficult to build teams without a dedicated few mons / types of mons. This is especially constraining when the best and most comprehensive anti-priority mon (Lele ofc) prevents you from using priority yourself, which cripples your ability to sweep and to revenge kill. Extreme Speed warps the entire meta around it imo, and I can't see how that would possibly be healthy (although I can see how people would disagree).

I also think Lele is banworthy, but that's a topic for another post (and please don't ban Lelelelele without banning Espeed lel). I honestly wrote "except for Lele" or some variation of so many times in this post it's kinda ridiculous.

Sorry if this is fractured or incoherent I wrote it on mobile :3

Can't agree more. Battles revolve around keeping you ES check alive (whether Lele or a fast ghost) or pressuring with your own. It feels very restricted.

 

[VCrakeV]

Can't agree more. Battles revolve around keeping you ES check alive (whether Lele or a fast ghost) or pressuring with your own. It feels very restricted.

Not to mention -are users... ghosts can't stop Mega Pinsir, which also forces Lele to use a choice scarf due to it's slightly higher speed.

Not to legitimize espeed, but the popularity of it means stronger moves aren't being used, making BO and stall more viable. HO is in a "can't beat them, join them" scenario.

 

[Fissure]

With the recent discussion on espeed and its influence on the meta, the council has come to a unanimous vote of 5-0 in favor of quick banning extreme speed from being sketched. Extreme speed has been deemed to reduce the component of skill in the meta far too much. Espeed does not care about speed tiers, thus making an espeed user of your own the best way to prevent being swept by another extreme speed user, or also by having dedicated checks. Unlike other offensive / set-up sweeper threats in the meta, extreme speed's priority prevents the common ways of dealing with them (naturally faster mons, choice scarf mons, priority haze, topsy turvy, and heart swap mons). This restricts not only team building, but most play styles as well. To reiterate, all of this plus the fact that all the main abusers of espeed are already hard hitting physical mons with great coverage and set-up moves at their disposal, the player is rewarded for simply clicking a set up move and then clicking espeed (or sometimes only just clicking espeed), regardless of their opponent's ability as a team builder and battler. Tagging The Immortal

 

[OM]

With the recent discussion on espeed and its influence on the meta, the council has come to a unanimous vote of 5-0 in favor of quick banning extreme speed from being sketched. Extreme speed has been deemed to reduce the component of skill in the meta far too much. Espeed does not care about speed tiers, thus making an espeed user of your own the best way to prevent being swept by another extreme speed user, or also by having dedicated checks. Unlike other offensive / set-up sweeper threats in the meta, extreme speed's priority prevents the common ways of dealing with them (naturally faster mons, choice scarf mons, priority haze, topsy turvy, and heart swap mons). This restricts not only team building, but most play styles as well. To reiterate, all of this plus the fact that all the main abusers of espeed are already hard hitting physical mons with great coverage and set-up moves at their disposal, the player is rewarded for simply clicking a set up move and then clicking espeed (or sometimes only just clicking espeed), regardless of their opponent's ability as a team builder and battler. Tagging The Immortal

Time to redo the vr again

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

I'm still seeing Extreme Speed on the ladder, I thought it had been banned?

So this post isn't a one liner, Trick Room is surprisingly solid in this metagame. I've found Mega Camerupt a great user for pretty obvious reasons, and it can easily set it up against stuff like Scarf Blacephalon, Mega Mawile and Tapu Koko. Would sketching Moonblast or Blue Flare be better on Magearna?

 

[drampa's grandpa]

I'm still seeing Extreme Speed on the ladder, I thought it had been banned?

So this post isn't a one liner, Trick Room is surprisingly solid in this metagame. I've found Mega Camerupt a great user for pretty obvious reasons, and it can easily set it up against stuff like Scarf Blacephalon, Mega Mawile and Tapu Koko. Would sketching Moonblast or Blue Flare be better on Magearna?

Bans take a little while to get on ladder. Be patient.

Out of those two I'd rather go Moonblast on Magearna, but it depends on the set and what the team needs it to do.

 

[Pokemonferfun1985]

Sceptile mega isn't on the tierlist?

sceptile doesn't have to worry about getting outsped by extreme speed anymore, and it's ability lightning rod combined with it's high speed and electrify can be very scary. It can completly counter any assualt vest user or slower scarfer or band/specs user because it just uses electrify to make the attack become electric and gain 1.5 spa through lightning rod. This should put sceptile very high on the tierlist as it works very well with good prediction and it can make him become a very dangerous sweeper while also not getting killed