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We will definitely be seeing these things coming soon, it is just a matter of getting them set up and the people hosting these projects. If you're interested in helping you can talk to Xayah or 5gen via discord or Smogon PM and I'm sure you can work something out.
First off: sorry for this four-liner. Are there any plans to implement objective criteria for the different ranks in the future (along the lines of Xayah´s "C+ does not mean 'unviable', C+ means 'niche and requires specific support'." from two posts above this one)? I know that this kind of endeavor can get out of hand and evolve into unhealthy reductionism, but it would definitely help smoothen future discussion and make it less subjective and easier to understand for people who are new to the tiering process.
First off: sorry for this four-liner. Are there any plans to implement objective criteria for the different ranks in the future (along the lines of Xayah´s "C+ does not mean 'unviable', C+ means 'niche and requires specific support'." from two posts above this one)? I know that this kind of endeavor can get out of hand and evolve into unhealthy reductionism, but it would definitely help smoothen future discussion and make it less subjective and easier to understand for people who are new to the tiering process.
To answer, no, I am personally heavily opposed to this and it has been brought up multiple times, but there's a reason why almost every official tier got rid of them. As you said, all it does is bring people down to reductionism, effectively bringing the level of discourse in the VR too 'but this fits the description in this corner case, so it needs to be B+!' What I said in thread is how I read into the viability of the current C+ ranked mons, no more, no less. In the end, after all, the VR is subjective, with it being most important that the mons in one rank are similar in viability, worse than the ones above them, and better than the ones below. Why they are like that isn't important, and descriptions would screw with that.
Question, is there any fire sets down here that Pu doesn't know about? I was checking out sticky hold users and saw trubbish and thought it might be used here for (T) spike stacking
Saw there were no S tier mons, but I wanna take Toucannon and abomasnow away, super slept on
Thanks in advance
I found out we been doing it wrong(snow is typeless in numbers)
+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 145-172 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 136-161 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
Question, is there any fire sets down here that Pu doesn't know about? I was checking out sticky hold users and saw trubbish and thought it might be used here for (T) spike stacking
Saw there were no S tier mons, but I wanna take Toucannon and abomasnow away, super slept on
Thanks in advance
I found out we been doing it wrong(snow is typeless in numbers)
+1 252+ Atk Huge Power Bunnelby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 145-172 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 136-161 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
Hey. The Pokemon in ZU that are used in PU typically would run the same sets in both tiers (i.e Pinsir or Swanna) and many current ZU Pokemon were in ORAS PU (Golem, Bouffalant, Combusken, etc) so PU is bound to know their fire sets. That being said, Z moves create a dynamic and there are probably some Pokemon like SD Hustle Raticate and Z-Parting Shot Silvally that are outclassed in PU but can be used here (even though they're not really seen).
While Pokemon like Trubbish and Bunnelby can be fun to use, in a competitive setting they're outclassed by Pokemon such as Mareanie and CB Komala/Kecleon/any other Normal-type breaker. There is definitely room for creativity and innovation in the tier, so feel free to check out ZU's resources and test your ideas on the ladder or against people in the ZU room.
Rampardos has a massive attack stat for the tier, which is made even crazier by Sheer Force and its great coverage for it. At the end of the day, it'll be Ramp's 4th move that determines what can check it.
If it is LO 3 attacks Rock Polish, it will likely have Rock Slide, EQ, and Fire Punch, but there's also room for Ice Beam or Zen Headbutt if its a LO AoA or even Mold Breaker CB that is seldom ran. Because of its huge, often SE coverage, not much can defensively check ALL of Ramp's sets.
Because of its coverage, the only mon to not be 2hko'd (from my knowledge) by its usual attacks and then either Ice Beam or Zen Headbutt is Dusclops, and even then its shaky:
Rock Slide is a guaranteed 3hko, so you'd have to play around with being almost completely healthy and getting a Wisp off, which isn't too reliable.
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 109-130 (38.3 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
However, if they run Crunch (which isn't common) its a 2hko anyways:
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 156-185 (54.9 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If it is lacking Zen Headbutt, then Poliwrath is your best bet. Silv-Fighting is a close second:
Poli tanks Rock Slides and stomachs EQs and fires off a Scald back while getting leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 101-121 (26.3 - 31.5%) -- 15.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Rampardos Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 139-164 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 94.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Silv-Fight comes into most attacks, and has a faster fighting STAB to 1hko Ramp. It does have to be careful of the EQ though.
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Silvally-Fighting: 126-148 (31.9 - 37.5%) -- 92.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rampardos Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Silvally-Fighting: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO (or 62% after rocks)
If it is lacking Ice Beam, then bulky Grounds like Sandslash and Hippopatas are the way to go (dont go Vibravia, that can still be 2hko'd by Rock Slide!):
Sandslash does a good job and can punish with EQ or hazard control.
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Sandslash: 99-117 (27.9 - 33%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Rampardos Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Sandslash: 135-160 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Eviolite Hippo both takes hits better and recovers from them too, but is usually just meant for stall teams.
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Rampardos Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 77-91 (22.6 - 26.7%) -- 97.4% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Rampardos Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 105-125 (30.8 - 36.7%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
So in short, Ramp can be very hard to deal with defensively, and has options to 2hko the entire tier! However, its usually checked by its frailness, lack of speed, multiple weaknesses, and only having 4 coverage attacks (3 with RP). Try to play around to scout its coverage or deal with it early on.
Edit: It's also worth acknowledging that Ramp is a niche threat as is and has problems like I mentioned above that hinder it from being a top tier threat.
It can be, but not both hazards with shell smash, usually just stealth rock. This differentiates it from golem due to being a sr setter that can potentially threaten a sweep and/or wallbreak, especially when paired with weak armor
Excuse me for coming back so soon, but is there a way for Natu to beat Bronzor without being dead weight against other hazard setters? It fails to 3HKO with any of its attacks (including heat wave with eviolite knocked off, and night shade), so Bronzor can simply pp stall it with rest. Calm mind + stored power is pretty good, since it hits other setters like Corsola and Mareanie hard, and 3HKO Bronzor at +6 (with eviolite). That said, it is hard to set up when psywave can force you to roost often.
Perhaps there is a better candidate for checking passive setters like Bronzor, Corsola, and Mareanie? I was thinking about Komala, but it gets spinblocked. Then again, perhaps ghosts aren't common, and/or Komala can deal with them? Everything else I can think of either runs out of pp in the hazard war; is susceptible to toxic; or has no reliable recovery.
Depends on the team, but unless your using stall, forcing Bronzor to rest and then threatening it out is probably the easiest solution. Natu should be running toxic, night shade and roost and in the last slot you can use protect to scout electivire, komala, and other choice locked mons, u-turn, reflect or rest. The last two give you a lot more pp so you should be able to stall out bronzor 1v1 assuming you can switch out to burn rest turns.
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