Sigilyph, Comfey, and Scrafty in SM NU

Rabia

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SM NU has been deemed a pretty matchup-based tier for awhile now, for some because of Z-Moves and others because of certain Pokemon. Although the general consensus is that the tier is pretty alright as is, I (with backing from the other TLs) wanted to field opinions on three Pokemon that most frequently do get calls for action because of how limiting they are to teambuilding: Comfey, Sigilyph, and Scrafty.

:ss/comfey:
Comfey needs no introduction. Its Triage ability is dumb and cringe and makes offensive counterplay irrelevant, and its coverage is all it needs and then some. Hidden Power gives it a level of versatility that can flip many matchups on their heads. If Comfey is Hidden Power Ground, then options like Delphox, Togedemaru, Steelix, and Garbodor become a ton less reliable at stopping it. If Hidden Power Psychic is chosen, then you can end up beating Weezing one-on-one and gain better angles against Victreebel and even Golbat; this also enables Comfey to run Grass Knot to retain a favorable Steelix matchup. Obviously, Comfey can't get all of these potential matchup wins in one set, and generally teams can fit multiple answers without going out of their way to do so, but we've seen time and time again Comfey bullshit its way to wins in matchups where it didn't look like it had the means to do so from team preview.

:ss/sigilyph:
Sigilyph takes set versatility to a new level. From Life Orb to Choice Specs to random Z-Move setup sets, Sigilyph is impossible to get a read on from the start and has pretty limited counterplay overall. Generic special walls aren't the greatest because they either fall to its coverage moves or take too much from its STAB attacks, and some of the better answers---Delphox and Slowking come to mind---are Pursuit trappable. Meanwhile, there also exist sets like Cosmic Power + Flyinium Z, Z-Toxic, and even fucking Z-Miracle Eye that all add extra layers to what Sigilyph can do in a game to bypass defensive stops like Incineroar and Guzzlord to its setup sets. The few limiting factors to Sigilyph, i.e. it's Pursuit trappable itself and can somewhat be pivoted around if you predict it properly, aren't exactly damning to its overall success rate, and these negatives are possible to mitigate with Protect sets and good prediction.

:ss/scrafty:
Scrafty doesn't get the same amount of criticism as the first two mentions, but it's certainly something that you have to be cognizant of in the builder lest you risk being 6-0ed on the spot. Dragon Dance + Chople Berry sets make Passimian their bitch and can snowball out of control with relative ease if your opponent lacks one of the two viable Fairy-types in the format, and Bulk Up variants have a lot of leeway around the multitude of passive Pokemon like Seismitoad and Blastoise to set up multiple times a game. Compared to the other two Pokemon being brought up, Scrafty does have more available counterplay to it. Bulkier sets can be shut down with Taunt users like Weezing and Golbat, and Dragon Dance variants are a bit slow without a second boost still, which makes them easy enough to revenge kill with Pokemon like Whimsicott, Flyinium Z Aerodactyl, Comfey, and Passimian (if Scrafty opts for a Z-Crystal > Chople Berry).

Here's a tags list of SM NU players from the past couple tournaments that may want to give input:



Important: this is not a thread guaranteeing action on any of the above Pokemon. It's simply a means to get discussion started up to see if there's a route to take that's supported by players of the format.
 

Expulso

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Having managed and played in a few nu team tours (in which we completely abused sigilyph, including punny using it like 6 out of 8 weeks lmao) i can comfortably say sigi in SM NU is completely broken and the metagame would be healthier if it were banned.

it can change its counters very quickly. for instance, Protect + LO 3A still has enough breaking power for everything but the fattest teams but suddenly can’t be easily Pursuit trapped. Basically all teams just accept losing a mon to Specs every time it comes in. Z move + Cosmic Power sets autowin against basically any team that lacks a pursuit trapper (Incineroar is quickly outboosted and chipped down by air slash / SR, stuff like DTail Guzz / Slowking can lose in last mon situations, so u basically just have to get lucky and happen to be running niche answers like cryogonal or scarf togedemaru)

322 speed + magic guard in a tier of NU’s power level is insane, it beats any team lacking Pursuit and has ways around the pursuit users + trades at worst in those mus anyways. might edit in replays when I’m not on mobile

CM/CP Z Sigilyph, the movie:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-634458
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-564500
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-566995 <- CM+CP vs 3 standard teams: with no specific counterplay it just snowballs and wins

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-559801 <- CM Sigi beats Mega Aboma and Rhydon (both with Wish support) and Delphox, all supposed counters

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-597003 <- Specs sigi kos everything

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-629617 <- Protect Sigi (+ some great prediction) turns the tables on a Pursuit user

The replays with Aerodactyl or a bigger threat from the opponent's side (e.g. a rampaging NP Mismagius) are really the only ones where sigi doesnt put in this insane amount of work -- and even then it can usually trade 1 for 1.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-601686 <- Sigi kos 1 mon and gets trapped (if Askov lost this 50-50 Sigi would KO his whole team)


===


The other 2 mons on this list are p much fine and i think it would be worth waiting to take action until u see how the departure of meta-warping sigilyph affects them.

I think Mismagius is at least as broken as Comfey/Scrafty and should also be considered for a suspect. Guessing wrong on its coverage or Z moves costs you a mon, and without a Pursuit trapper it’s hard to stop this thing from just coming in and accumulating kills. Lower power level than Sigi and more status prone but I think I’d be borderline on missy and no ban on comfey/scrafty
 
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elodin

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despite not being tagged (even though i had more sm nu success than any of the tagged players), i'm gonna share my quick thoughts on this.

the only one of these 3 mons that i could maybe see an argument for being broken is comfey, due to its ability to 6-0 games on preview with no counterplay as long as it's carrying the right hidden power type.

i personally don't think sigilyph is that big of a problem. specs tinted lens is impossible to counter but it's hindered by the sr weakness and also easy to outspeed and revenge kill/pursuit trap. the magic guard sets are easier to switch into and despite covering the sr weakness they still don't cover the awful defensive typing that is psychic/flying. i feel like the counteplay to sigilyph is more skill based and i don't think it warrants action.

i don't think scrafty is a problem at all. there's plenty of tools to revenge kill dragon dance sets and the best pokemon in the tier is a great answer to every set except chople. it lacks immediate damage and it just doesnt match up very well in plenty of games no matter its set.

all in all, these mons all share a common annoying element: variety in sets that can give you an immense advantage on preview based on teambuilding choices. that said, i do think comfey is the only one that takes this "variance" element and maybe elevates its risk/reward to a point of uncompetitiveness, because it legit 6-0s on preview based on a hidden power pick. yes, sigilyph and scrafty can also do this, but only if your opponent deliberately decides he's gonna be weak to their setup sets in the builder, because they can't circumvent their answers with one simple change in their movesets like comfey can.

tl;dr i think comfey is worth the discussion, i don't think sigilyph and scrafty are issues whatsoever.
 

Feliburn

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despite not being tagged (even though i had more sm nu success than any of the tagged players), i'm gonna share my quick thoughts on this.
Where's ur SM NU Cup win :blobthinking::trode:

I think all the mons mentioned are very big punishers of teams with very lazy counterplay for each of them, Comfey being the most dangerous one because, as previously mentioned, it can get past its checks with the right Hidden Power, and it has the easiest time finding set up opportunities I feel. Elodin expressed p much how I feel about it, so I won't get into detail.

Sigilyph is one of my most used mons in this tier, especially the Choice Specs set, as the raw damage output is insanely fun. But I also think it's the one with the better offensive counterplay of them all, as some of the more common mons in the tier are Heliolisk, Guzzlord, Togedemaru, Aerodactyl, Incineroar, etc. Non specs set are a bit easier to deal with, albeit probably harder for people with less experience in the tier or more passive teams. Like I don't wanna nitpick, but the replay posted on Sigi w/ the supposed counters Rhydon and Mega Aboma were both at 6% and dead respectively before Sigi even saw the field. I think Sigi is one of the best mons in the tier, but I would not take any action on it at the moment.

Scrafty has personally never given me trouble, plenty of options can revenge kill DD sets, and BU sets are not as hard to beat if you have a fairy type move (Whimsicott and Comfey are p popular so it'd be hard not to have one) or some of the more common taunters. Tho if there's some action taken on Comfey idk how Scrafty would fair, I still think it can be dealt with like CB/Z Fly Aero, Passimian, Whimsi but it obviously becomes better so idk. Not worth doing anything imo.

SM NU has always been one of the more enjoyable metas, but it's been a little over a year and a half since I played so obviously I've missed some meta development, but from my experience it's always been comfey being kind of a bitch and the rest of the meta being fine and fun.
 

Finchinator

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I do not think anything needs a ban currently, but I’m ok with discussion on Comfey and Sigilyph. I actually think this tier settled pretty nicely and is enjoyable/balanced for the most part.

Comfey is always going to be polarizing and it’s a premier late-game option, but I think there’s ample counterplay. I understand if people want a vote on it though and wouldn’t object too much. You have to really fight hard to preserve things you need multipurposed to keep it in check later on and revenge killing is a big challenge for offensive teams, so I can see the strain it has on the builder and how it may handcuff players.

Sigilyph I’ve always found more of a paper threat than a practice one. I’d argue that it’s movepool makes it absurdly good, but it is a defensive liability, Pursuit weak, and in need of perfect moves for a lot of match-ups. I find that you can look at all it can do and argue for it being broken logically, but I just haven’t encountered many struggles firsthand. If others feel strongly, I’ll defer to those more recent. I’m just not sold myself.

Scrafty is good, but not broke. Does not register on my radar personally.
 

Ren-chon

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As the #1 SM NU Comfey hater from back in the CG days, I think it is the most broken out of the 3 6-0 machines by far simply because of how limited offensive counterplay can be to it, and it having the tools to get through any supposed check without really sacrificing much. CM / DKiss / GDrain / HP Ground has been the standard set for a while now (with Taunt seeing some use here and there), and it can just about get through every single common check to it: garb, incin, steels (with scarf maru often being too chipped late game to properly handle a +1 / +2 comfey anyway, and unable to KO back most the time), phox, mag, and the list goes on. You really only miss out on bat (not really that common nowadays), weez (is often super overloaded due to pass spam), and vic... all of which can be dealt with if you use HP Psychic... with vic also being dealt by if you choose to go HP Fire which would also hit the steels. The 3 main "categories" of Comfey checks are basically steels, fires and poisons with HP Ground blanket covering all 3 and Psychic / Fire going for more specific targets. This creates a situation where, until you scout the HP type the opposing Comfey is using, you ABSOLUTELY NEED to keep all these checks as healthy as possible (not to mention actually bringing them in the first place) or else you risk just losing once it CMs up. As if that wasnt enough, Triage DKiss means even your offensive checks that could potentially revenge kill it (band or z aero and scarf rat as the main ones) also necessarily need to be able to tank a hit first before even trying to land a hit, with other common rk options such as sneasel and scarf pass being left unable to deal with it at all. It lacks proper offensive counterplay, the defensive answers need to be kept healthy through the game, and it being one of the best checks to scrafty and doubling down as pseudo-speed control also means theres not much opportunity cost to running it. It warps how teams are built, forces every game where Comfey is present to revolve around it and shouldve been banned even back then.

The other 2 are kinda similar to me in that you can both rely on defensive and offensive counterplay as opposed to comfey, with the main difference being that even a 1 HP Aero / Whimsi can be a proper, valid check to Scrafty / Sigi. Scrafty is the most unidimensional of the 3, with only the BU set being problematic imo due to it being able to force progress during any point of the game by spamming knock and being an excelent special and status sponge. However, fairy types are everywhere and even things like vic and taunt split weez can deal with it, not to mention just throwing strong hits like pass cc, specs / z mag, band / z aero, and so on. Its annoying and can run through teams without a solid counterplay to it, but not sure if its that strong to warrant a ban.

Similarly, sigi is really good but also not ban worthy imo. Specs sets can be checked by incin, av king and guzz, while z-move sets are aero and sneasel food. I think the most annoying thing about sigi is its set diversity, and guessing the wrong one can often spell trouble; however, I think we have enough common checks to all of them to keep it under control. I actually think sigi is the least problematic out of the 3 just due to how common pursuit is.

All in all, comfey is broken and should be banned, scrafty and sigi not so much, although I feel like people are greatly underestimating how quickly scrafty can get out of control with its BU set and how annoying it is to deal with even if it doesnt really sweep lol
 
Not the most experienced of players with this tier but I've played a decent amount, especially in the past few months helping others prep for tour games. From personal experience Comfey is the most obvious broken out of the three, able to pack coverage for whichever checks it wants to, while having a cringe ability to cheese late game. I think action on this mon is definitely needed.

Sigilyph is a wierd case. Personally I think it is the single most broken mon in the tier, simply due to its versatility. Magic Guard sets stand out as the best simply because they can avoid rocks, pair that with one or two aggressive doubles as the check comes in and you easily force progress and open up sigi late game. The mon has stupid breaking power and a decent speed tier to force damage early or clean late, as well as the ability to set up past its checks and win that way. SM NU is a matchup tier, and sigilyph is the single best mon to fish with.

1670967667541.png


why is this mon even in this debate
 

lax

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I’ve played a lotta SM NU since I really started doing tours and I gotta say that I don’t really find any of these 3 over the top OP. However, I primarily build balance/bo in this tier, so I make it a point to cover these annoying mons in particular

I’d define an important metric to brokenness is that any player can use the mon/set and instantly get ridiculous value from them. Additionally, ppl that are experienced will always be able to extract the most value out of them and, as a result, the alleged mon will have tons of value in its game no matter what. I don’t really think any of them fit this criteria because Comfey requires set up and positioning to put it in a spot to truly sweep or do damage, Sigilyph requires predicting with the specs tinted lens set and generally won’t outright 6-0 anything with Z Fly cosmic power (what I consider to be its best set) without proper set up as well such as chipping a dark type and picking the right mon to just boost up on. This is def the closest set to just picking it up and winning the game tho bc most teams are underprepared for it. However, if it was OP everyone would use it and then people would account for it the most. Scrafty can wall everything and kill everything, or is just too slow and you eventually get overwhelmed by the rest of the team or hazards. I’m saying this as someone who got 6-0’d by our biggest scrafty user Kushalos in SPL >:( that was definitely a teambuilding fault. Scrafty has access to broken ass knock and is definitely a god tier mon, but again it requires positioning and functions more as a “I’ll eventually sweep” mon if the rest of the team properly supports iy

There’s honestly nothing I’d really change bc this is the tier I find building and playing to be the most fun. If we did a suspect/vote I’d likely vote no on all 3
 

EviGaro

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I don't really think any of them requires action either. Comfey is somewhat arguable if you think in terms of hard countering it, you can do that with relatively few mons depending on its last move but it needs to have the right one, and it can do damage across playstyles in a way not a lot of mons can. But, its still Comfey, and stupendously weak without setting up on top of really not having the best ins despite a good typing. Too vulnerable to hazards, weak to status, doesn't like Knock at all. Its for sure a building threat, and you still have to highly respect it, but its desgined for a targeted end game it can fall flat on. I don't think the risk is so low that you will always run it, nor is it decidedly unfair.

I consider Sigilyph to be very versatile, like elodin said, but its versatility is a bit deceiving, as its used to beat mons in fatter styles that it typically preys on. All the Sigi sets are super susceptible to higher tempo play, which is also very common in more current meta, and all the tricks it can do aren't outstanding vs it. And its not like its the only thing giving those builds a hard time either, in fact its speed tier is crowded with those: Rotom, Heliolisk, Mismagius, Delphox, are all picks that play very aggro vs fatter builds and on the whole give Sigi a lot of competition over selection as they have different support attributes Sigi kinda lack. Highly annoying to prep for the moment you move away from offence, yeah, but it also needs to pick right.

Scrafty is... a good pokemon. I'm not really sure how I would say its broken. Its fat as hell with the SpDef set but kinda hates all the strong psychics that set up in this tier because it just doesn't do enough. On the switch, it can lose to Sigilyph, Mismagius, Delphox (with z-move), NP Slowking, gets volted on by Rotom... When you're looking for a sponge for those typings, that reality kinda hurts. Guzzlord does a bit better there by Gleam being absolutely needed to ko it on Sigi and Delphox, but it obviously won't provide you the same setup. Scrafty can blanket Mega Aboma, until that boy clicks SD, but even then Blizzard puts you in range to uh oh better get Shed Skin right. So to me, BU is flawed enough to be perfectly fine. DD with lure certainly adds another dimension, for sure, but... Unless you are banking mega hard on the opponent being certain it should be BU on your comp, DD just doesn't provide you with the same things. You can't pivot it in on the volts, it loses far harder to the psychics, and while Passimian can be lured you really need to get those turns right to not rack up enough damage for your berry to save you... and its not something that's incredibly easy to do either. It can for sure clean up a game, but ngl Chople Pangoro does that too and provides you a lot more threatening potential early on that I'm not convinced Scrafty absolutely deserves to be considered over it. Wait why are we not talking about CB or SD Panda instead this mons broken what the hell.

Unironically, my very hot take for the mon that should be considered first to make SM NU less of a matchup nightmare is... Garbodor. Because Toxic Spikes are SO dumb and the mon itself is actually stupid easy to use, beats various ways of preventing spikes fairly easily, and is just obnoxious as hell. Without Garbodor no one considers Mismagius close to broken because the safest tspikes are what makes that mon snowball as badly as it can. Nerf tspikes and SM NU just becomes a lot better, Weezing is good but its just not the same mon and is way less centralizing as a setter imo.
 

etern

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Not really in a smogon essay writing mood but I had to respond to this thread since it'd upset me to see such a good tier get massacred when in my opinion it's comfortably the best SM lower tier and as balanced as you can hope for from the Z-Move gen. Just gonna respond to the points in the OP that I disagree with and give my thoughts. (spoiler alert, i'm against any action on any of these mons).

SM NU has been deemed a pretty matchup-based tier for awhile now, for some because of Z-Moves and others because of certain Pokemon.
If anything SM NU is one of the least matchup-based tiers in NU because you have the tools to build extremely sturdy teams that can account for most playstyles. I think the Z-Move thing is really played out too, if you've got an even average knowledge of the tier you can pretty accurately pinpoint what mon has the Z-move and what move it is. Maybe you'll see a few more random Z-Moves in 2022 when people are playing this tier once a year during NUPL and the reward for random surprises is much higher since you don't need consistent teams, you need a team that'll win one game and then never be used again. Idt I've seen more than a couple people ever say SM is a matchup-based tier ever.

Comfey needs no introduction. Its Triage ability is dumb and cringe and makes offensive counterplay irrelevant, and its coverage is all it needs and then some. Hidden Power gives it a level of versatility that can flip many matchups on their heads. If Comfey is Hidden Power Ground, then options like Delphox, Togedemaru, Steelix, and Garbodor become a ton less reliable at stopping it. If Hidden Power Psychic is chosen, then you can end up beating Weezing one-on-one and gain better angles against Victreebel and even Golbat; this also enables Comfey to run Grass Knot to retain a favorable Steelix matchup. Obviously, Comfey can't get all of these potential matchup wins in one set, and generally teams can fit multiple answers without going out of their way to do so, but we've seen time and time again Comfey bullshit its way to wins in matchups where it didn't look like it had the means to do so from team preview.
Comfey is a good mon that rewards intuitive play, but literally any good balance team has or at least should have multiple answers to it which require a high level of outplay to get past. We often seen cores of Golbat + Steelix + Delphox, or Garbodor + Xatu + Steelix, or even Silvally-Steel + Vaporeon + Poison which result in Comfey being a liability for good portions of the match, and these cores dont just exist because of Comfey, they're meta because they're effective against a big chunk of the tier. The abundance of Toxic and Toxic Spikes in the tier also makes it difficult for Comfey to get going sometimes because the chip damage racks up very quickly when you have to fully invest in SpA. Obviously Comfey is at the top of this list and requires more thought into checking it than lower rank threats, but saying it has no counterplay is just blatantly wrong. Comfey never dominated even at it's peak before stuff like Bulky Delphox became popularized and the stats back that up. To me it's just a meta-defining mon you need to account for and also comes with the nice bonus of punishing poorly built teams. 100% not banworthy.

Smogon Snake Draft II : | 10 | Comfey | 12 | 16.22% | 41.67% |
Smogon Snake Draft III: | 8 | Comfey | 21 | 21.88% | 47.62% |
SPL X: | 14 | Comfey | 11 | 11.46% | 36.36% |

Sigilyph takes set versatility to a new level. From Life Orb to Choice Specs to random Z-Move setup sets, Sigilyph is impossible to get a read on from the start and has pretty limited counterplay overall. Generic special walls aren't the greatest because they either fall to its coverage moves or take too much from its STAB attacks, and some of the better answers---Delphox and Slowking come to mind---are Pursuit trappable. Meanwhile, there also exist sets like Cosmic Power + Flyinium Z, Z-Toxic, and even fucking Z-Miracle Eye that all add extra layers to what Sigilyph can do in a game to bypass defensive stops like Incineroar and Guzzlord to its setup sets. The few limiting factors to Sigilyph, i.e. it's Pursuit trappable itself and can somewhat be pivoted around if you predict it properly, aren't exactly damning to its overall success rate, and these negatives are possible to mitigate with Protect sets and good prediction.
Sigi isn't too wild of a take and I can understand why some people dont love it, but like lax and evi said, the best set is CM Fly-Z and that set can get bullied hard by the aggro nature of the meta. Specs is probably the most annoying set for me on paper, but at the same time it isn't used much because taking SR damage AND being easily trapped isn't that appealing when other mons (like eggy-a, heliolisk, mismag, vikavolt) can break to a similar degree and actually bring some defensive utility to the table. Against certain defensive / balance teams, Specs can completely dominate, but I often find that the prevalence of Protect on Stall / Semi-stall on those teams also allow for pretty good counterplay to Sigi, even without a pursuit trapper. CM Fly-Z probably harrasses these teams more but Haze and SpD Incin / Pursuit trappers are also rly common on them, so that's not an autowin either. It's true that Protect Sigi can hurt Pursuit trappers (though this applies to Mismagius and Z-Delphox as well), but that's something the Pursuit user needs to account for and the risk you take when locking into a 40bp trapping move on a choice locked mon. Sometimes clicking Knock Off is the play!! I think Sigi just looks much scarier on paper even though it isn't a bad mon by any means, and against less experienced players in the tier you can prob farm them with it a couple times before they wise up and start accounting for it and understand what it does. Again, not banworthy to me but I get the idea behind the discussion.

Scrafty doesn't get the same amount of criticism as the first two mentions, but it's certainly something that you have to be cognizant of in the builder lest you risk being 6-0ed on the spot. Dragon Dance + Chople Berry sets make Passimian their bitch and can snowball out of control with relative ease if your opponent lacks one of the two viable Fairy-types in the format, and Bulk Up variants have a lot of leeway around the multitude of passive Pokemon like Seismitoad and Blastoise to set up multiple times a game. Compared to the other two Pokemon being brought up, Scrafty does have more available counterplay to it. Bulkier sets can be shut down with Taunt users like Weezing and Golbat, and Dragon Dance variants are a bit slow without a second boost still, which makes them easy enough to revenge kill with Pokemon like Whimsicott, Flyinium Z Aerodactyl, Comfey, and Passimian (if Scrafty opts for a Z-Crystal > Chople Berry).
I despise Scrafty but I actually think he's a bit worse in SM than he is in SS. Chople DD is really fun and owns Passimian gamers sometimes, but it's def not broken, just a cool offense set (Ironically Scrafty is so slow for a DD sweeper that Pass might be the only revenge killer in the tier that sucks against it lol). I agree that it's a little annoying how BU Scrafty can just invalidate bulky stuff like blastoise and vaporeon (even though only 2 people use vaporeon in SM), but between all the fairy and fighting coverage this tier has + taunt and some Flying mons, I don't really think there's a lack of counterplay to justify doing anything. Also if you're using Scrafty you aren't using Pangoro or Incineroar so there's a bit more risk/reward compared to SS Scrafty. Not much else to say about Scrafty, SpD is obnoxious but beatable.

I wouldn't change this tier for a few reasons, one being that I find post-gen changes to old established tiers that fewer people play counterproductive (in terms of official tiers that actually have and had a playerbase, something like GSC or RBY is different) and damaging to the tiers identity (also new players tend to quickly judge the state of old tiers without fully understanding them, which leads to rash opinions), but if I had to name something that would actually be worth discussing, it'd be Toxic Spikes. I brought this up in 2019 but move bans have always been a touchy subject on Smogon (for fair reason), but they're still just as meta-defining now to the point that people are using poison-vally (this is the gen where vally is garbage btw), muk, and I think Rabia even uses Beedrill. :worrycargo:
 

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