Resource RU Viability Rankings Thread

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tehy

Banned deucer.
I'm here to submit a nom of my own: Gourgeist-XL (or Super) to C+

basically, i'm looking at the list of C mons and



i mean, i like ludicolo, i like kabutops, and Golbat fulfills a certain sort of niche. But Gourgeist-Super is on a whole 'nother level.

Basically, it's the tier's most comprehensive fighting check (shut up Emboar). It's not entirely perfect against CB Medicham, but other than that, it's rock solid. Most importantly and crucially, unlike other defensive ghosts, hell other defensive Pokemon, it does a number on Virizion; even with a free SD due to a miss or you wanting to stay in a turn to get up rocks or something, you can still very much win:

+4 252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 159-188 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252 Atk Virizion Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 128-151 (34.2 - 40.3%)

actually a bit more than I had thought, but regardless, you can wisp -> synthesis pretty freely on this, and of course Zen Headbutt, while annoying with the flinches, needs to flinch about twice to get the advantage on you even in this worst-case of scenarios.

Anyhow, the point is that switching in directly on a Swords Dance is 99% victory, switching in after a turn is still pretty close to victory, something which basically no other Pokemon can claim. Besides this, Gourgeist has Wisp + Leech Seed to harass most switch-ins; this helps it spinblock even Refresh Blastoise as well (you eventually have to switch, but time it right and you can leave a mark, then either force out the blastoise or hit it with a Knock Off like I do to make it beatable next time). Also very solid against malamar who just can't set up and gets seeded in the face, though you don't necessarily 1v1 it long term.

Gourgeist-Super fills a really cool defensive role, C is just not good enough.

(I personally run Foul Play as the attack, which is just kind of generally nice, and the occasional SubSD Bouffalant can get it. there are other cool options like Rock Slide, seed bomb for STAB, fire blast for escavaliers and abomasnows, sky's the limit with my mans gourgeist!)
 

MrAldo

Hey
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Hy,

I think Registeel should be A- so let me just disagree with some of your arguments.

First you said that Registeel needs Wish Support. I simply think that's untrue. Although Regi with Wish support from Alomomola is almost unbreakable, Regi can function perfectly well on its own. It's just so fat on the special side, combined with Lefties it literally take 5% from so many important special attackers. Even with a lack of offensive presence, none of them like taking a Toxic or T-wave (I don't see why you can't run both btw. All you need is Rocks/Seismic/Toxic/T-wave). I would say Seismic Toss is actually a boon, it does very respectable chip damage on stuff like Mega Steelix, and in a lot of matchups it certainly gives more damage out than it takes, including the SR chip. As for not splashable, again I have to disagree. It's one of the most splashable SR setters in the metagame. No other pokemon can give you a blanket check to so many Special attackers: Meloetta, Venusaur, Exploud, Diancie, etc while also setting rocks. It's comparable to say Heatran in OU, or Swampert in UU. There's very little to lose from running it on even offensive teams. In the 12 games I've played in RU seasonal so far, Registeel was on 7 or 8 of my teams, and it put consistent work in each and every battle, despite most of my teams being Balanced Offense and only one of them having Mola.

Also putting Mawile on the same rank as Registeel is just ridiculous. I like Mawile, but there's no way the two pokemon should be the same rank considering how many more pokemon Registeel checks and how much more consistent it is in general with its huge bulk. Mawile counters some important pokemon like Sneasel and Tyrantrum but it still faces a lot of competition from the likes of MegaLix and Diancie, and it provides the inherent teambuilding flaw of having a Steel-type that can't take Special attacks.
Nice, nice. I love having debates with respect, so allow me disagree on your disagreement.

Registeel needs wish support because will it does wall a lot of stuff on paper, having no reliable recovery really takes the toll especially against meloetta and exploud were can easily get past it through a coverage move and just having lefties recovery is barely enough. It actually relies on leftovers a lot so even stuff like knock off venusaur can diminish registeel longevity considerably, and if it runs rest is forfeits momentum way harder than it should. You cant really run both toxic and thunder wave alongside stealth rock cause running protect is essential to registeel success, amazing scouting tool that ease prediction and that can force mindgames against mons like medicham and hitmonlee, and the moment you reveal stealth + 2 status moves one do notice you arent running protect and yeah... wont really recommend sacrificing protect on it at all. Im not even sure if I buy that it is splashable either. I feel mons like seismitoad, diancie and even rhyperior are far much more splashable than it (and rhyperior is already in a pretty odd position in the metagame) but thats just my opinion.

About Mawile, technically speaking Registeel should rise to B+ so we arent putting them on the same rank so I dont see a problem with that :V Mawile handles key threats to offense like scarf tyrantrum, sneasel and virizion way better and it doesnt forfeit momentum thanks to its access to baton pass. And super fang is just way better than say seismic toss, but we arent comparing both in this to be honest. Registeel also suffers from the same SR setter competition as mawile so I really dont know if that counts.

As I said, I wont deny that registeel should rise virtue of its individuals merits handling stuff like venusaur much much better than every other SR setter, but I really think thats it, it only deals with meloetta and exploud on paper and even stuff like abomasnow puts inmense pressure with hail and focus blast. It just falls short against certain special attackers on practice.

Thanks for your time.
 
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ManOfMany

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Nice, nice. I love having debates with respect, so allow me disagree on your disagreement.

Registeel needs wish support because will it does wall a lot of stuff on paper, having no reliable recovery really takes the toll especially against meloetta and exploud were can easily get past it through a coverage move and just having lefties recovery is barely enough. It actually relies on leftovers a lot so even stuff like knock off venusaur can diminish registeel longevity considerably, and if it runs rest is forfeits momentum way harder than it should. You cant really run both toxic and thunder wave alongside stealth rock cause running protect is essential to registeel success, amazing scouting tool that ease prediction and that can force mindgames against mons like medicham and hitmonlee, and the moment you reveal stealth + 2 status moves one do notice you arent running protect and yeah... wont really recommend sacrificing protect on it at all. Im not even sure if I buy that it is splashable either. I feel mons like seismitoad, diancie and even rhyperior are far much more splashable than it (and rhyperior is already in a pretty odd position in the metagame) but thats just my opinion. The comparison against heatran and swampert in just feels like pretentions propaganda to make it seem better than it, lets stay objective here.

About Mawile, technically speaking Registeel should rise to B+ so we arent putting them on the same rank so I dont see a problem with that :V Mawile handles key threats to offense like scarf tyrantrum, sneasel and virizion way better and it doesnt forfeit momentum thanks to its access to baton pass. And super fang is just way better than say seismic toss, but we arent comparing both in this to be honest. Registeel also suffers from the same SR setter competition as mawile so I really dont know if that counts.

As I said, I wont deny that registeel should rise virtue of its individuals merits handling stuff like venusaur much much better than every other SR setter, but I really think thats it, it only deals with meloetta and exploud on paper and even stuff like abomasnow puts inmense pressure with hail and focus blast. It just falls short against certain special attackers on practice.

Thanks for your time.
I actually agree with most of your points about both Registeel and Mawile to some extent, so instead of arguing, I'm just gonna suggest another nomination.

to B-

Now I know a lot of you guys think this is a gimmick pokemon, and I did too, but hear me out. First of all, you are most likely using a bad set. Some shitty Gunk Shot + Protect or something like that. What you really should be using is this:

Banette-Mega @ Banettite
Ability: Insomnia/Frisk
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Shadow Claw
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp

Simple and effective. Mega Banette doesn't have to rely on gimmicks to work- it's an effective wallbreaker and priority user on its own. Mega Banette can grab a mega evolution vs offense by revenge killing something with its powerful and reliable priority, such as Sigilyph. It can also grab the Mega Evolution on something slower that it threatens with its STAB, such as Slowking, a choice-locked Fighting type (Sawk, Medicham, etc), or something slower that it can burn. Banette doesn't exactly struggle with finding opportunities to Mega in the RU meta.

Now what does Banette actually do after it Mega Evolves? It acts as a wallbreaker. Shadow Claw + Knock Off coverage is very potent and difficult to switch into. The few things bulky enough to take either attack absolutely hate the burn, such as Tangrowth, Steelix, and Alomomola. Even when Banette does have "counters", it is able to cripple the pokemon and make it much easier for other pokemon, such as Fletchinder, to take out. If Mega-Banette actually takes out a pokemon, which is fairly likely considering how few balanced offense teams actualyl run something to take physical ghost-type attacks, then comes the tricky part. It is actually surprisingly difficult to revenge kill properly. Almost no physical attackers can properly revenge it for fear of the priority Burn. Special attackers fare better, but a good proportion of them detest Shadow Sneak- Sigilyph, Delphox, and Rotom for example. Destiny Bond can be used to make you even more terrifying to rk but then you lose one of these

Of course, Mega Banette isn't that easy to fit on teams. It provides little to no defensive synergy, is not bulky, and can't revenge kill a large amount of pokemon such as Sneasel. It is a fairly niche pokemon. It does however, fit on teams wanting a wallbreaker, and something that can wear down pokemon such as Registeel, MegaLix, and Diancie so that the likes of Fletchinder or Sneasel can sweep lategame. It is also able to fill the role of a reliable priority user on a team, and an emergency check to a lot of physical attackers, which can be a fantastic bail-out for offense. Overall it's not an amazing or splashable pokemon, but its ability to cripple and wear down most defensive pokemon, while still providing strong utility vs offense gives it enough niche for B- imo.

I haven't saved many replays but here's one in seasonal where it was able to remove Registeel for Venusaur, as well as burn the opponent's Flygon.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-365164981

Here's one where Omfuga uses Banette wears down both Diancie and Alomomola allowing Fletch to sweep. He's using I think the exact same set as me.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-364200979


EDIT: also lmao why is Dugtrio in B- that thing guarantees the removal of Registeel and Diancie, a.k.a the most used blanket checks to every dangerous special attacker in the tier it should be B+ easy
 
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Lord Death Man

i cant read
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I disagree with Banette rising - neither match really feels like it's showing me B- material, and both matches showcase someone who just leaves something in as Banette (predictably) cripples a core, necessary wall with Knock Off + Wil o Wisp. In addition, Gunk Shot isn't a gimmick at all, it's Banette's strongest attack even after factoring stab, and is Banette's best shot at taking out Tangrowth and Physically defensive Aromatisse, among other threats - in the first replay, Shadow Claw only really performed because of a crit, and in the second, Gunk Shot pressured the team a considerable amount more (as it 2hko'd Mola AND had a solid shot at poisoning). It does benefit a lot from non-Iron Head Registeel being common, but it doesn't actually effectively wallbreak versus a lot of balance and semi-stall cores, which I sort of feel is necessary to be a wallbreaker.

I agree with Gourgest-XL. I've seen a lot of defensive Venusaurs, but I'm pretty sure the mon they're looking for is Gourgeist; the mixed defensive spread of Gourgeist (which I believe is like 248/80+/200) has decent odds of taking on CM Virizion, and generally offers most of what you'd want defensive Venusaur for, minus Toxic Spikes removal, while being a much more reliably fighting check. I'd even go so far as to recommend it for B-, it's a really solid mon and fighting types are incredibly dangerous.

Disagree with Dugtrio's rising two ranks. It can pretty reliably trap Registeel and Diancie, especially if it gets a free switch in (but even if it doesn't I think it has a decent shot at just hard switching in if rocks aren't up). I think Memento support is the coolest aspect of this mon; you can take out their wall and then set up on their usually predictable switch in. Also traps Virizion which is never not cool. Would support B.
 

phantom

Banned deucer.
updates:

Sneasel up to A+
Absol down to B+
Manectric down to B+
Sawk down to B+
Registeel up to A-
Malamar up to B+
Garbodor up to B
Mawile up to B
Poliwrath down to B-
Linoone added to C-
Samurott down to B-

needs more discussion:

Mega Banette
Gourgeist-XL
Dugtrio

Discussion points:

Togetic down to B-
Scrafty down to B/B-
Uxie up to B
Abomasnow down to A-/B+
Medicham up to A+
Weezing up to B
Druddigon down to B-
Eelektross down to B-
Aggron down to B-
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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stay in C-

Nothing has really changed for this to get better: it is still a terribly awkward mix between Spiritomb's support and Hoopa's stall-crushing capabilities while offering a spinblocking role, but costs the Mega slot in the process. Prankster Destiny Bond is still the only real niche this thing has; Prankster Wisp is cute and all but there are only like a handful of sweepers Mega Banette can Wisp that Spiritomb fares no chance against, and some of the setup sweepers, like SD Virizion and SD Absol, do carry Lum Berry. Moreover, there are even less situations that Prankster Wisp is better than Prankster DBond in terms of stopping sweeps, anyway. Mega Banette may be able to do more to stall than trapper Spiritomb, but even then not by that much as most mons with reliable recovery can shrug off MBanette's efforts (like that Alomomola in the first replay ManOfMany shown; why the dude didn't go to Alomo and not only let his Registeel just get burnt, but outright KOed is utterly beyond me). Hoopa meanwhile offers vastly superior stallbreaking abilities while pressuring Blastoise much more effectively. Hell, even if you try to justify Wisp + Knock Off as a stallbreaking niche over the other Ghosts, Absol does that shit better, but you don't see Absol trying to pull this off because it's not a very good niche.

Competition aside, MBanette still has its core issues to deal with. While Prankster Destiny Bond can be really useful to force opponents to sac a Pokemon, the opponent gets to choose what to sacrifice to MBanette, and this is a problem because outside of Prankster DBond, MBanette's KOing power is actually pretty lackluster (unless the opponent plays really poorly, like, idk, throwing away his Registeel). 165 Attack starts to look a lot less impressive when your most powerful attack is a 120 BP unSTAB move. What's more, while MBanette is whittling away at the opponent's DBond fodder / bulkier Pokemon without resorting to a DBond double KO, that's usually enough time for the foe to inflict status on MBanette, which heavily impacts the potency of its Prankster DBond.

Mega Banette is just an extremely clunky Pokemon: it takes a couple of niches from various Pokemon and crams it into a Mega slot, which is already not a good sign when specialization and opportunity cost are so important in Pokemon, but still lacks the proper qualities to augment its primary niches in the first place. Prankster Wisp would've been better if MBanette can actually stall out, much less beat the mons it cripples 1v1, so since it is scheduled to lose anyway it might as well have just Destiny Bonded. It would be better if it got STAB on some of its best attacks, such as Knock Off and Gunk Shot. Prankster Destiny Bond would've been better if it, you know, worked turn 1. Mega Banette would've easily had more merit overall if it didn't cost the Mega slot in the first place. This really shouldn't ever rise.

up to B-

Okay first off:
I agree with Gourgest-XL. I've seen a lot of defensive Venusaurs, but I'm pretty sure the mon they're looking for is Gourgeist; the mixed defensive spread of Gourgeist (which I believe is like 248/80+/200) has decent odds of taking on CM Virizion
How does this hope to take on CM Virizion? Do you just Wisp it and spam your measly 8 PP Synthesis while hoping Virizion stops boosting and just lets LO + burn whittle it out? Because Virizion can totally just CM more until HP Ice or even Giga Drain overwhelms your recovery. Not to mention Gourgeist-XL does not act as a switch-in at all, because what can you do once you switch into a CM?
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 200-237 (53.6 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I for one think the SpD spread is a bit outdated anyway; the spread says it's for combating Tangrowth, but not only is Venusaur a better response, I wouldn't send in Gourgeist-XL to fight a Tangrowth these days anyway.

Anyway, Gourgeist-XL is definitely a noteworthy wall: access to Will-O-Wisp, reliable recovery in Synthesis, and huge physical bulk are all very good qualities to have. What's more, Gourgeist-XL can fend for itself decently well. Leech Seed can annoy switch-ins that it cannot burn (notably Emboar, who'll get punished more if it tries to spam Flare Blitz), stack alongside Will-O-Wisp to pile on the damage, and help to pressure bulkier setup sweepers as well. Gourgeist-XL has Rock Slide to make Will-O-Wisp switch-ins such as Fletchinder, Delphox, Sigilyph, and Houndoom pause, it can use Seed Bomb to improve matchups against things like Rhyperior, Blastoise, Seismitoad, Diancie, etc, or it can even try Shadow Sneak to snipe down Hoopa and weakened Psychic-types that try to take advantage of it. If you really wanna get wild, you can even test Skill Swap to combat bulky setup sweepers like Gurdurr and Malamar, who rely heavily on their abilities to combat Malamar (you can even shut down Malamar's RestTalk by passing it Insomnia).

All in all, a quirky little wall that can prove to be a major pain for any physical attacker without super effective STAB, and should definitely be the focus of your WispSeeding strategies instead of some other ghostly tree (you know who you are).

stay in A

We all remember how potent Mega Abomasnow was at dismantling cores with little effort. While regular Abomasnow is not nearly as ridiculous, it isn't that far behind in terms of holepunching prowess. There's still not many Pokemon in the tier that can comfortably take Abomasnow's attacks, and Hail negating Leftovers means that Abomasnow can do stuff like 3HKO Registeel with uninvested LO Earthquake even when taking Protect into account (and if Registeel uses it in an attempt to stall out Hail turns, that makes switching easier). Meanwhile, STAB Ice Shard helps to keep it relevant against offense, with a decent amount of targets such as Flygon, Aerodactyl, Sigilyph, Virizion (especially if -1 Def), and Venusaur. The harsh decline of Bronzong since that period should also only serve to solidify Abomasnow's standing, and I consider Abomasnow to be a much superior wallbreaker than Mega Glalie if anything else.

down to B-, maybe even C+

Eelektross has been progressively getting worse in each meta, and it hits its peak ages ago (in the Tornadus meta). Like sure it has pretty wide coverage, but it often has to give up some pretty important move to make full use of it (for instance, Eel wants TBolt for raw power + not getting force switched and Volt Switch for slow pivoting, so it can be a tricky task deciding the remaining moves). However, by far my bigger issue with Eel is that its poor Speed and lack of reliable recovery means that Eel is likely to lose nearly any matchup where it has to rely on its neutral power alone. The fact that Eel still commonly uses Assault Vest instead of more typically beneficial items (such as Expert Belt to capitalize on its coverage, or Leftovers to improve its few notable matchups against Fletch and Mega Steelix) only masks this fact and is pretty telling, as it proves that not getting throttled by several faster threats such as Delphox, Flygon, Venusaur, Meloetta, Exploud, etc. is more important for Eel than actually improving its favorable matchups, and that is not something I like to see in a Pokemon.

Imo, Eel is quite reminiscent to Clawitzer in the fact that it heavily relies on getting type advantages in matchups, because it doesn't really offer much else in return due to the awful Speed (meanwhile Clawitzer has zero defensive synergy, whereas Eelektross's power-to-speed ratio is among the worst of the offensive threats in the tier). I don't know about you, but I'd rather pick something like HP Flying Rotom-C over Eelektross every single time.

down to B- / C+

Honestly, I'm not sure if CB Aggron is even part of its niche anymore; it's really badly outclassed by CB TRex, and TRex doesn't even commonly pack CB (~15% of the time), which should notify you regarding CB Aggron's demand / validity. I think what even keeps Aggron in the game is SubPunch + Magnet Rise, which allows Aggron to screw with Mega Steelix and Rhyperior in ways that Tyrantrum never could. Sadly, I don't think this niche is quite enough to allow Aggron to maintain its rank: it still loses to the Water / Fighting mons that are used to check TRex, plus its Speed tier is just woeful and it gets blasted open by nearly anything remotely offensive.
 
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Lord Death Man

i cant read
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up to B-

Okay first off:How does this hope to take on CM Virizion? Do you just Wisp it and spam your measly 8 PP Synthesis while hoping Virizion stops boosting and just lets LO + burn whittle it out? Because Virizion can totally just CM more until HP Ice or even Giga Drain overwhelms your recovery. Not to mention Gourgeist-XL does not act as a switch-in at all, because what can you do once you switch into a CM?I for one think the SpD spread is a bit outdated anyway; the spread says it's for combating Tangrowth, but not only is Venusaur a better response, I wouldn't send in Gourgeist-XL to fight a Tangrowth these days anyway.
You're right - I didn't do the calcs, and after going over them some more I think full phys def probably has more merits (for example, handling Sneasel switchins).

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 211-250 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 182-218 (48.7 - 58.4%) -- 57.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is cleanly within the "Click Wisp" range, so it's probably one of the better spreads. Spdef does take on special Flygons without Fire Blast much better, making it an overall easier switch in to Flygons (and Fire Blast is at a pretty low 14% usage right now), which can seem like a minor point but has been very helpful for me. Unfortunately, that requires the full 200 special defense; I've personally been using 248/152+/108 as a spread, which lives 2 Dracos if rocks aren't up as a sort of soft-check to Flygon, and I think that's really as much special defensive as could be helpful in this meta. 248 hp with 208 special defense lives a Manectric overheat from full but that's a lot of bulk to achieve what will likely be a negiligible result.
 
Tauros ->C+/B-
I see no listing for Tauros and I have to say I'm surprised. Tauros in spite of not being able to necessarily get around things like Mega Steelix/Rhyperior easily has an amazing speed tier, and serve as basically an unparalleled cleaner versus offensive teams, and in some cases balance as well. It can also be a severe headache for balance to deal with, with their switch ins basically being limited to things such as MLix and Rhyperior, and on stall you have those two along with Registeel and possibly Gourgeist-XL as a more niche option. Tauros can actually severely pressure all of these switch ins with the correct move thanks to its excellent coverage, but thanks sadly to Alo existing its probably not getting past stall by itself anytime soon, but even versus those squads it can pressure your opponent enough that in tandem with something else like Virizion can probably help you break stall(and that's your worst match up probably). Against offense you're faster than Virizon and with minimal chip damage KO it, and nothing can actually switch in on you(except Tyrantrum) which actually makes it really noteworthy I'd say. I do think that because of its average matchup versus more defensive team that it should be B- to start with, with possibly a rise if stuff like MLix/Tyrantrum gets banned which makes its good matchup versus balance/offense get even better.
 
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Tauros ->C+/B-
I see no listing for Tauros and I have to say I'm surprised. Tauros in spite of not being able to necessarily get around things like Mega Steelix/Rhyperior easily has an amazing speed tier, and serve as basically an unparalleled cleaner versus offensive teams, and in some cases balance as well. It can also be a severe headache for balance to deal with, with their switch ins basically being limited to things such as MLix and Rhyperior, and on stall you have those two along with Registeel and possibly Gourgeist-XL as a more niche option. Tauros can actually severely pressure all of these switch ins with the correct move thanks to its excellent coverage, but thanks sadly to Alo existing its probably not getting past stall by itself anytime soon, but even versus those squads it can pressure your opponent enough that in tandem with something else like Virizion can probably help you break stall(and that's your worst match up probably). Against offense you're faster than Virizon and with minimal chip damage KO it, and nothing can actually switch in on you(except Tyrantrum) which actually makes it really noteworthy I'd say. I do think that because of its average matchup versus more defensive team that it should be B- to start with, with possibly a rise if stuff like MLix/Tyrantrum gets banned which makes its good matchup versus balance/offense get even better.
I talked about this in another thread but why would anyone use Tauros instead of Ambipom ? Not only is Ambipom faster but it also has more accurate moves and only a 6% power difference (keep in mind that Ambipom's Low Kick does more to MSteelix than Tauros's Fire Blast) Ambipom also has a better movepool with things like Knock Off, U-Turn, Fake Out, Aerial Ace (if you wanna revenge Virizion) and Gunk Shot (it also gets Pursuit, just dropping this here because I heard people praise Tauros for its access to Pursuit for some reason)

The only tiny niche that I can think of that Tauros has over Ambipom is its access to EQ which hits Garbodor, that's all.

People always give shit to Ambipom (for good reasons) but turn around and start praising Tauros which is a slower, less accurate version with a far worse movepool I just don't get it.

Edit: Ambipom's Low Kick and Seed Bomb also do more damage to Rhyperior than anything Tauros can throw at it.
 
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Aberforth

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People give shit to Ambipom cause its bad...

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 292-344 (90.9 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 255-302 (79.4 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's not 6%. Tauros is stronger, doesn't care about the extra speed (only things in that tier are bad (ambipom cincinno) or stuff ambipom doesn't want to take on either (sneasel)) and can cover more things in its movepool due to the fact that it doesn't require Technician Fake Out to even have the tiniest of niches in the tier, meaning it can actually run coverage to hit a lot of things, as well as the extra bulk meaning it doesn't drop to a wet paper bag hitting it in the face.

Despite all that, Tauros still aint great. I'd say C or at absolute most C+ works for it, any higher is lying.
 
People give shit to Ambipom cause its bad...

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 292-344 (90.9 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 255-302 (79.4 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's not 6%. Tauros is stronger, doesn't care about the extra speed (only things in that tier are bad (ambipom cincinno) or stuff ambipom doesn't want to take on either (sneasel)) and can cover more things in its movepool due to the fact that it doesn't require Technician Fake Out to even have the tiniest of niches in the tier, meaning it can actually run coverage to hit a lot of things, as well as the extra bulk meaning it doesn't drop to a wet paper bag hitting it in the face.

Despite all that, Tauros still aint great. I'd say C or at absolute most C+ works for it, any higher is lying.
While I'm not gonna argue cause that never leads to anything, I just wanted to fix something for you.
You are implying that I said people should not give Ambipom shit, but all I said is that Ambipom gets so much shit which it deserves for being bad but Tauros should get even more shit cause it is worse IMO.
 

Aberforth

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I'd use mono-Tauros long before I considered using an Ambipom on any team.

At least some of that is anger that Ambipom is still in the tier, but even so Tauros is better cause better movepool + 3 coverage moves as opposed to 2, + stronger.
 
The thing about Tauros is that thanks to it's coverage is actually able to work as well as a balance breaker, taking care of Virizion, Venusaur and poison types with Zen Headbutt and Diancie and Ice types with Iron Tail/Head. While Ambipom may have more movepool and Low Kick is huge, Tauros's moves are far more effective in RU's metagame being a good balance breaker meanwhile Ambipom only has good match-up vs offense in a way Sneasel does it better 99% of the time. Although, not supporting Tauros for B-, C seems fine for it
 

Lord Death Man

i cant read
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Tauros really shouldn't be ranked, but if it is it's like C- at best. It's not a very good mon, and it weighs down teams the same way other normal-types and mons with generally useless typings do, except it's a little bit bulkier. It has extreme difficulty breaking down bulky waters, steel types (EQ is hitting for less than Sneasel's Low Kick, turning 2hkos into 3hkos and 3hkos into 4hkos, which is absolutely pathetic), and honestly has pretty awful coverage that just so happens to hit a few balance staples super effectively. I think intimidate with band might have a legitimate place in the metagame because of it's bulk, but I think the LO Sheer Force set is pretty bad and is attempting to fulfill a niche that probably doesn't exist.

Reliance on 3hkoing bulky waters and steel types, which are often paired together as balance cores, is why I think this isn't a very good mon. It also has quite a bit of difficulty KOing targets from full if it doesn't hit super effectively, which severely limits it's ability to get in versus balance teams, and is reliant on pretty mediocre coverage options to revenge specific mons.
 
Omastar C+ --> B-

Omastar has a Great Defense of 125, Sp.Attack of 115 and moves of Shell Smash, every entry hazards (excepting Sticky Web), and has three great abilities such as Shell Armor, Swift Swim, and Weak Armor.

The main problem is its 55 Speed Tier and its Sp.Defense and its crippling weakness to Fighting, Electric, Grass. But although these crippling flaws prevent Omastar from getting glory it can be in B- rank. Heres WHY!

Omastar is a great Shell Smasher and apparently one of the Best Shell Smashers in this tier so it has a clear niche in destroying Flygon w/ Ice Beam, Rhyperior w/ Hydro Pump and many more mons on the tier

And its a good Suicide Lead in RU since it can learn ever entry hazard in the game except Sticky Web

I can see this Pokemon Being in B- as its a good late-game sweeper and a good Suicide Lead
 

MANNAT

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Weezing up to B rank


Weezing is such a good utility mon for stall teams that checks not onlyl all of the common grasses running around rn, but it is also an excellent fighting check due to its high physical bulk and neutrality to knock off. Obviously, really strong super effective attacks like banded zen from sawk and +2 zen from virizion are going to hit like a truck, but Weezing is still an excellent check to fighting types and grass types alike while also having the utility of setting up toxic spikes, which can really help wear down wallbreakers from offensive teams. The fact that this thing is a very good check to one of the "big 3" of the tier in virizion, and that it has such good physical bulk that it can check such a myriad of physical attackers in the tier while also checking potent special attackers at the same time is so good. Blanket checking two huge groups of threats for stall in grass types and fighting types (bar medi/gallade) is such a good niche when coupled with its abilities to spread crippling status mean that it really shouldn't be denied of B rank imo. It obviously faces flaws like a lack of reliable recovery and the fact that it falls prey to psychic coverage among a few others, but this thing is so good defensively that it at least belongs in a rank with aggron, mawile, aromatisse, and togetic lol.

Edit: Here's the set I use for you guys that want it
Weezing @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 228 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Will-O-Wisp
- Sludge Bomb
- Pain Split/Flamethrower/Other useful filler based on team
 
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-> B-

For the most part Jolteon is outclassed by Manectric, both because Manectric gets Switcheroo to cripple walls and also because of its inferior coverage(read:Flamethrower). Jolteon has to choose between HP:Ice/HP:Water for its hidden power to take on Mega Camerupt/Flygon and so Tangrowth on bulkier teams is frequently a hard stop, not mentioning the fact that as long as Mega Steelix is there Jolteon will always be checked really well by it, unlike Manectric which 2HKO's it on the switch. Jolteon's speed is the only thing that stops it from being completely outclassed, but that extra speed is useless on everything in the higher ranking's of the VR except for Sneasel, which I admit is a valuable niche for offense , but it can still Ice Shard you round 40% or so sadly. So yeah Jolteon for B- please, it's not terrible but Manectric is better generally. Jolteon is also faster than Virizion I suppose but realistically you aren't doing much to it, unless you're choice specs HP:Ice which is terrible with Mega Steelix existing.
 
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-> B-

For the most part Jolteon is outclassed by Manectric, both because Manectric gets Switcheroo to cripple walls and also because of its inferior coverage(read:Flamethrower). Jolteon has to choose between HP:Ice/HP:Water for its hidden power to take on Mega Camerupt/Flygon and so Tangrowth on bulkier teams is frequently a hard stop, not mentioning the fact that as long as Mega Steelix is there Jolteon will always be checked really well by it, unlike Manectric which 2HKO's it on the switch. Jolteon's speed is the only thing that stops it from being completely outclassed, but that extra speed is useless on everything in the higher ranking's of the VR except for Sneasel, which I admit is a valuable niche for offense , but it can still Ice Shard you round 40% or so sadly. So yeah Jolteon for B- please, it's not terrible but Manectric is better generally. Jolteon is also faster than Virizion I suppose but realistically you aren't doing much to it, unless you're choice specs HP:Ice which is terrible with Mega Steelix existing.
Well, Jolteon and Manectric actually rival each other! Jotleon has a blistering speed of 130! Manectric's base speed can reach to 105. Jolteon has better Sp.Attack which is 110, Manectric's Sp.Attack is 105. Jolteon has better Sp.Defense, Manectric has bad Sp.Defense. Although Manectric can utilize Switcherro, Faster Pokemon can hamper it with Taunt if, it is carrying Specs. Other than Switcherro, it's outclassed as a Switcherro user by Delphox and a Volt Switcher by Jolteon and Jolteon does better at blocking Volt Switches so.

Jolteon and Manectric should stay
 

EonX

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Well, Jolteon and Manectric actually rival each other! Jotleon has a blistering speed of 130! Manectric's base speed can reach to 105. Jolteon has better Sp.Attack which is 110, Manectric's Sp.Attack is 105. Jolteon has better Sp.Defense, Manectric has bad Sp.Defense. Although Manectric can utilize Switcherro, Faster Pokemon can hamper it with Taunt if, it is carrying Specs. Other than Switcherro, it's outclassed as a Switcherro user by Delphox and a Volt Switcher by Jolteon and Jolteon does better at blocking Volt Switches so.

Jolteon and Manectric should stay
There's a few things wrong with this. First and foremost, Manectric benefits so much more from Life Orb than Choice Specs to take advantage of its great coverage. Jolteon's better Special Defense hardly matters when there's next to no notable special resistances it possesses. That being said, I think Jolteon is just fine where it is for the time being Master Sunny-EX.

First of all, Manectric should never be running a Choice item of any kind, so it having Switcheroo hardly matters (Scarf is waaaaay too weak and Specs restricts ability to use coverage) Although both Jolteon and Manectric have pretty situational abilities, Manectric's at least provides it with a useful offensive boost. Next is Overheat. Although not quite as common as Flamethrower, it puts a much larger hole in Tangrowth immediately and it OHKOes most variants of Mega Steelix, lessening the need for Manectric to predict bulky Electric resists switching in. So why should Jolteon stay? It has Signal Beam. In a tier that has very few powerful Bug-type attackers due to the ubiquity of Mega Steelix, Signal Beam can be quite handy on offense to immediately drop / significantly damage a Malamar while also being a fair bit stronger vs Tangrowth and Meloetta. Obviously, Jolteon has its issues with the Steel-types of this tier, especially Mega Steelix and Registeel, but it does have its own set of perks that keep it from being outright bad / outclassed and it can still run a SubPass set that many offensive Pokemon appreciate in order to get safe switch-in chances. Maybe it should drop to B rank, but definitely no lower and I feel B+ rank is better for it.
 
There's a few things wrong with this. First and foremost, Manectric benefits so much more from Life Orb than Choice Specs to take advantage of its great coverage. Jolteon's better Special Defense hardly matters when there's next to no notable special resistances it possesses. That being said, I think Jolteon is just fine where it is for the time being Master Sunny-EX.

First of all, Manectric should never be running a Choice item of any kind, so it having Switcheroo hardly matters (Scarf is waaaaay too weak and Specs restricts ability to use coverage) Although both Jolteon and Manectric have pretty situational abilities, Manectric's at least provides it with a useful offensive boost. Next is Overheat. Although not quite as common as Flamethrower, it puts a much larger hole in Tangrowth immediately and it OHKOes most variants of Mega Steelix, lessening the need for Manectric to predict bulky Electric resists switching in. So why should Jolteon stay? It has Signal Beam. In a tier that has very few powerful Bug-type attackers due to the ubiquity of Mega Steelix, Signal Beam can be quite handy on offense to immediately drop / significantly damage a Malamar while also being a fair bit stronger vs Tangrowth and Meloetta. Obviously, Jolteon has its issues with the Steel-types of this tier, especially Mega Steelix and Registeel, but it does have its own set of perks that keep it from being outright bad / outclassed and it can still run a SubPass set that many offensive Pokemon appreciate in order to get safe switch-in chances. Maybe it should drop to B rank, but definitely no lower and I feel B+ rank is better for it.
Well in order to be correct both Manectric and Jolteon learn Signal Beam, and I also agree that they both should stay at B + Rank
 

Venusaur: A+ -> A/A-
this might be just me, but I have yet to see anything spectacular from Venusaur. I can name a few factors to this. Firstly, Venusaur often has to rely on LO Leaf Storm to OHKO things neutrally, and can't really muscle past steel types due to Hidden Power Fire being somewhat weak and Leaf Storm being resisted. And don't even try to hit a steel type with Sludge Bomb. This leaves Venusaur walled by some fairly common Pokémon in Registeel, Mawile, and to a lesser extent, Mega Steelix. Also, using Leaf Storm effectively limits you to one turn on the field at a time. This isn't Serperior, Leaf Storm drops your special attack by two stages each time you use it. Additionally, Venusaur's speed tier is in the extremely crowded base 80, leaving it prone to speed tying or even just being outsped by a lot of threats: Virizion can snag a KO with ZHB if physical or HP ice if special, Tyrantrum outspeeds with scarf and can KO with Outrage or Head Smash pretty easily, Meloetta and Sigilyph outspeed and KO with their STAB moves, the list goes on. Some might argue that Venusaur is supposed to pulverize slower teams, but Venusaur is naturally walled by Registeel, a common stall/defensive staple, and a lot of defensive Pokémon are by nature, defensive, and can take hits well. The only things really seperating Venusaur from Abomasnow in terms of destroying slower balance/stall teams is Venusaur trades priority, coverage to hit steel types, and a stronger, more useful secondary STAB for a better defensive typing, a lack of rocks weakness, and a toxic immunity. This makes Venusaur more suited to tearing through non-registeel stall and Abomasnow more suited to tearing through Balance, but with Stall being poor and Balance being by far the best playstyle, Abomasnow's strengths are more useful than Venusaur's unless you know you are facing dedicated stall. Because of these, I think that Venusaur should be in the same rank as Abomasnow or lower, and a drop to A or A- is sufficient. Venusaur struggles to OHKO neutral hits, can't spend more than one turn on the field if it has to click Leaf Storm, and can be outsped, like Abomasnow, but Abomasnow has Priority, a much stronger STAB, and Hail cancelling out Leftovers and breaking Focus Sashes, among other benefits.
 

EonX

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Venusaur: A+ -> A/A-
this might be just me, but I have yet to see anything spectacular from Venusaur. I can name a few factors to this. Firstly, Venusaur often has to rely on LO Leaf Storm to OHKO things neutrally, and can't really muscle past steel types due to Hidden Power Fire being somewhat weak and Leaf Storm being resisted. And don't even try to hit a steel type with Sludge Bomb. This leaves Venusaur walled by some fairly common Pokémon in Registeel, Mawile, and to a lesser extent, Mega Steelix. Also, using Leaf Storm effectively limits you to one turn on the field at a time. This isn't Serperior, Leaf Storm drops your special attack by two stages each time you use it. Additionally, Venusaur's speed tier is in the extremely crowded base 80, leaving it prone to speed tying or even just being outsped by a lot of threats: Virizion can snag a KO with ZHB if physical or HP ice if special, Tyrantrum outspeeds with scarf and can KO with Outrage or Head Smash pretty easily, Meloetta and Sigilyph outspeed and KO with their STAB moves, the list goes on. Some might argue that Venusaur is supposed to pulverize slower teams, but Venusaur is naturally walled by Registeel, a common stall/defensive staple, and a lot of defensive Pokémon are by nature, defensive, and can take hits well. The only things really seperating Venusaur from Abomasnow in terms of destroying slower balance/stall teams is Venusaur trades priority, coverage to hit steel types, and a stronger, more useful secondary STAB for a better defensive typing, a lack of rocks weakness, and a toxic immunity. This makes Venusaur more suited to tearing through non-registeel stall and Abomasnow more suited to tearing through Balance, but with Stall being poor and Balance being by far the best playstyle, Abomasnow's strengths are more useful than Venusaur's unless you know you are facing dedicated stall. Because of these, I think that Venusaur should be in the same rank as Abomasnow or lower, and a drop to A or A- is sufficient. Venusaur struggles to OHKO neutral hits, can't spend more than one turn on the field if it has to click Leaf Storm, and can be outsped, like Abomasnow, but Abomasnow has Priority, a much stronger STAB, and Hail cancelling out Leftovers and breaking Focus Sashes, among other benefits.
These are all good points, but there's a few things missing here. First and foremost is Venusaur's ability to pressure the Wish and cleric users often accompanying the likes of Registeel and Weezing, thus making it much easier for Venusaur to keep them from being healed. Venusaur also destroys most teams using Alomomola + Diancie if they lack Weezing or Garbodor, and can even power through them anyway thanks to Sleep Powder rendering a team's main Venusaur answer absolutely useless for at least a couple of turns, which is often enough time for Venusaur's team to regain momentum rather easily. Next is Synthesis, which is a lot bigger deal than you might think. Most wallbreakers simply come in a time or two, wail at shit, and go down. However, Venusaur can afford to come in on more threats due not only to its Speed and typing, but also its access to Synthesis to shrug off Life Orb recoil and sustained damage. Also, Venusaur should stay A+ rank because it not only makes a profound impact on good defensive Pokemon in the tier, but also because of what it does to Speed tiers. Base 80 is so much important now than it was a few months ago, and this is largely due to Venusaur's presence. And yes, there's plenty of offensive Pokemon that can come in and KO Venusaur, but how many of them are actually able to safely switch into it? Incredibly few. In fact, Sigilyph is probably the best choice because it isn't screwed over by Sludge Bomb poisoning, but it still takes a ton from Leaf Storm despite the resistance. Venusaur isn't just about offense. I've been working with a more defensive set and it works surprisingly well as a check to Fighting- and Grass-types (oddly enough, defensive Saur is actually a very good check to offensive Saur) and it gains even more durability vs defensive teams thanks to Black Sludge, Giga Drain, Synthesis, and sometimes Leech Seed (great way to wear down your own checks and counters while keeping your own team healthy for the long haul) Lastly, I feel Venusaur is way easier to throw on a team bc it needs a lot less support than Abomasnow does due to the typing, Speed tier, defenses, and access to Sleep Powder to keep slower Pokemon from taking advantage of Leaf Storm SpA drops.

Illusion's FTW darn it. I hate technicalities >.>
 

Drapionswing

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I'm nominating Poliwrath for B/B+.

I've used Poliwrath quite some bit with tspikes and it's actually a great mon.
It's typing allows it to pair well with mons like Drapion and Garbodor as it safely switches in and forces out mega steelix preventing potential free turns. Poliwrath is a nice stop to the ever so threatening tyrantrum. It prevents headsmash spam and forces the tyrantrum user to potentially click outrage locking them into a less appreciative move. Poliwraths water absorb along with rest+sleep talk allow it to actually take on some defensive waters like blastoise and effectively wall alomomola giving you a reason to use it over some other waters. Circle throw along with it's bulk allow you to get last minute phases on potentially dangerous set up sweepers (note that I'm not saying that's a reliable way to check things) one example being virizion(+2 252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 342-404 (89 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO) tyrantrum and so on. It also is an amazing knock off sponge allowing it to check another really strong threat in sneasel.

Poliwraths offensive set allows you to be a soft check to stuff like Tyrantrums head smash and Sneasel whilst being able to support decent offensive pressure. It's offensive set, unlike the defensive set, prevents things like sigilyph and venusaur from coming in and just doing whatever they want and forces then to have to roost/synthesis after. Potentially giving you a free switch into a check/counter.
 
I'm here to submit a nom of my own: Gourgeist-XL (or Super) to C+

basically, i'm looking at the list of C mons and



i mean, i like ludicolo, i like kabutops, and Golbat fulfills a certain sort of niche. But Gourgeist-Super is on a whole 'nother level.

Basically, it's the tier's most comprehensive fighting check (shut up Emboar). It's not entirely perfect against CB Medicham, but other than that, it's rock solid. Most importantly and crucially, unlike other defensive ghosts, hell other defensive Pokemon, it does a number on Virizion; even with a free SD due to a miss or you wanting to stay in a turn to get up rocks or something, you can still very much win:

+4 252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 159-188 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+4 252 Atk Virizion Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 128-151 (34.2 - 40.3%)

actually a bit more than I had thought, but regardless, you can wisp -> synthesis pretty freely on this, and of course Zen Headbutt, while annoying with the flinches, needs to flinch about twice to get the advantage on you even in this worst-case of scenarios.

Anyhow, the point is that switching in directly on a Swords Dance is 99% victory, switching in after a turn is still pretty close to victory, something which basically no other Pokemon can claim. Besides this, Gourgeist has Wisp + Leech Seed to harass most switch-ins; this helps it spinblock even Refresh Blastoise as well (you eventually have to switch, but time it right and you can leave a mark, then either force out the blastoise or hit it with a Knock Off like I do to make it beatable next time). Also very solid against malamar who just can't set up and gets seeded in the face, though you don't necessarily 1v1 it long term.

Gourgeist-Super fills a really cool defensive role, C is just not good enough.

(I personally run Foul Play as the attack, which is just kind of generally nice, and the occasional SubSD Bouffalant can get it. there are other cool options like Rock Slide, seed bomb for STAB, fire blast for escavaliers and abomasnows, sky's the limit with my mans gourgeist!)
If you want to run a variant set fire blast helps decrease the amount of time spent stalling.
0 SpA Gourgeist-Super Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 82-98 (25.3 - 30.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
This variant also helps against tangrowth
0 SpA Gourgeist-Super Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Tangrowth: 146-172 (36.1 - 42.5%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Gourgeist-Super Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 118-140 (29.2 - 34.6%) -- 6.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 170-201 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
Jelicent
A- ---> B+

Looking at the rest of the A and A - I don't think Jelicent fits in. It presides in the same rank as Registeel and Hitmonlee which are just examples of things bett er than Jeli. Second is the fact that pursuit is seen on nearly every team which really hinders Jelicent a lot. It also faces fierce competition from both blastoise and mola who both have special quality about them that is more dominant than Jelis ghost typing + taunt. Also I haven't seen very many teams that have used Jelicent recently to its full extent.

Steelix
C- ---> Unranked(assuming Steelixite isn't banned)
I get if you are already using Mega Audino or Glalie it could be justifiable but honestly I find myself just going with rhyperior or registeel most of the time. If your teams need a Steel-type you usually want it for its defensive capabilities. Registeel is the superior choice since it doesn't have those extra weaknesses (also a grass resist.) If you want a ground-type you want it for its offensive qualities for the most part which is why flygon or rhyperior will be better. Point is you shouldn't be using Steelix unless you really want to use something that is worse.
 
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