RU Research Week #1: Hariyama, Whimsicott, Cradily

[Texas Cloverleaf]

He tried to Ogle mi...

So I'm going to run this because RU has a lot of good Pokemon that don't get a ton of usage and its a great way to become divers and try new things in the metagame.

Research Week looks to investigate Pokemon that have potential in RU, be it in stats, movepool, or supporting their team, to serve as an innovative choice in today's metagame. These are Pokemon that, for the most part, remain relatively untested. I've selected 3 Pokemon I feel, with help from everyone else, could see the rise of new and powerful sets, or the fulfilment of a particular niche. Perhaps the title is a bit of a misnomer; in fact, this installment (and likely future ones) of Research Week will continue as long as the discussion does, and that's where you all come in.

If you have anything to say about any of these Pokemon, please post about them! It doesn't matter if you've used them or have just faced them in battle, anything is fine (but please, do try them). Just be sure to back up your posts with good competitive reasoning!

-Be open-minded, don't just say something is terrible and walk away; at least look into them and see what options they may be able to utilize!
-Feel free to theorymon, but make it clear that you are theorymon'ing. At the end of the week, however, I want discussion to move towards how useful the Pokemon actually are in RU, and what sets are effective on them.
-Just because an analysis has been done for a Pokemon doesn't mean there isn't more to explore; it's quite possible that something might have gone unnoticed or is missing.
-Do not post in this thread complaining about the Pokemon I choose and/or suggesting ones we should do for future weeks. I want discussion to stay on topic about the 3 Pokemon we are "researching". Feel free to VM / PM me these suggestions, but don't expect the next research week to have all the Pokemon you suggested, or any of them.

So, the 3 Pokemon we will be looking at this research week are Hariyama, Whimsicott, and Cradily.

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How useful are these Pokemon in RU? What sets can they run effectively? What gives them trouble? What advantages do they have over other Pokemon?

Discuss; the discussion that come out of this will surely be illuminating! Don't forget, you're not just limited to this topic to discuss these Pokemon. The #rarelyused irc channel is a perfectly suitable place to discuss them as well. At the end of the discussion period, I hope we can reach a general consensus on how good these Pokemon really are, and that we might find some interesting discoveries.

 

[Hippo Icicle]

I'll start with Hariyama. I think that this thing is great in RU, I have using the following set:

Hariyama (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 176 HP / 96 Atk / 224 SDef / 12 Spd
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Bulk Up
- Stone Edge

This is a set Lokiman (a youtube user) showed in a showcase video, and it is an absolute beast. It can easily set up a sub on a lot of the tier, thanks to it's MASSIVE HP stat, and Thick fat ability. It can sub up on choice variants of Moltres locked into Fire Blast, and even the sub roost set if it can avoid getting toxiced and then fire of x4 effectivee stone edges if the opponent hasn't switched. (Which would be very sensible to do as soon as you see this thing). Once it gets a free sub up, depending on the opponents team, it can then fire off STAB Focus Punches or Bulk up to go for the sweep, and compensate for Hariyama's ineferior psychical bulk.

I find an offensive core of this and Crawdaunt to be very effective, as Hariyama eliminates pokemon like Munchlax and Ferroseed, that Crawdaunt has such trouble with. Furthermore, Crawdaunt takes psychic attacks aimed at Hariyama and from there sets up a sub, DDs or just fires off powerful adaptability boosted moves.

Then, since both of these pokemon hate status of all kinds, a heal bell/aromatherpy user works well. I have used Audino in this post, as although it shares a fighting weakness with Crawdaunt, it's regenerator Ability means it can be used in a bulky regenerator core, similar to the kind that infested the PO Lu meta for so long. Pokes like Tangrowth and Slowking all help Hariyama by spreading status and stalling.


Then, we come to Cradily. I will start by saying this is best paired with Hippopotas, in UU, where I have run an effective Mono attacking curse set, but that is a differnt tier so I will not go into details about that. The same set is also viable in RU without sand, but I find it to lack the same prowess as it does in UU, as it's typing lets it down. However, this is somewhat mitigated by Storm Drain, a great ability, and one of the reasons Gastrodon was sent shooting up to OU. This works well on a specially based support set, which makes an excellent Stealth Rock setter, helped by Recover. A Swords Dance set w/ Suction Cups is also interesting, but it's low Speed and Attack stats, mean there are better users of the move, like Gallade, and even Cacturne, however nice the Suction Cups boon is.

Cradily (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Suction Cups
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Rock Slide

I find a lot of people not running sleep talk, but I find not being setup fodder for a faster, more powerful sweeper while you sleep to be more important than coverage, as while many things will take pitiful damage from Rock Slide, even at +6 without investment (Aggron springs to mind immediately) the whole point of this set is that they shouldn't be able touch Cradily in return, while you wear them down with repeated rock slides. I find Lilligant setting up on this way to easily if Cradily hasn't got enough attack boosts with curse, so it makes sense to pair this with something that stops Liligant in it's tracks, Munchlax. (Ferroseed aswell, if they lack HP Fire, HP Rock seems to be more used at the moment though.)
Ferroseed can also setup spikes, Quilfish maybe for toxic spikes, which aide this set immensely, as you can imagine.


Ah, then Whimsicott. Everyone's least favourite Pokemon to face. This thing could be so good, if only people realised how essential hazard support is. Whimsicott is going to force switches, with all it's Leech seeding shenanigans, so imagine with rocks, spikes, and toxice spikes, how much more effective a sub-seed set could be. I'm sure a lot of you have clocked onto how useful hazards can be for this, I'm just making this more wider known.

Hariyama is so underrated, and has been shoved aside for the plethora of other fighting-types in the tier, like Medicham, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Primape and Gallade, even Aggron, who runs a similar sub-punch set, but I think Hariyama's unique traits, like Thick Fat, and that great HP stat, make it an excellent bulky set up poke for the tier.

Hope this was interesting!

 

[BLINGAS]

Alright so let me right a quick write up of these pokes before I actually go and test them more than I have before (Actually haven't tested Whimsicott or Cradily so idk)

HARIYAMA

Hariyama, this big motha fucka reached its peak of RU near the beginning, where it was on most teams on the ladder. It has since decreased in popularity because people have figured out how to play around it and more pokes have been discovered that help deal with Hariyama (Cofagrigus, Spiritomb). It is still one of the strongest hitters in all of RU, having a 120 base attack and a 120 Base power move + Stab. This man isn't one you want to mess with too often.

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Hariyama (M) @ Toxic Orb Trait: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 172 SDef / 86 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Bullet Punch
- Rock Slide / Payback

This is the main set for Hariyama, and most likely the most effective. There are few other sets other than this, one being the Focus Punch set, and the other a Rest Talking Whirlwind Thick Fat Force Palmin' wall type one. While these two sets are fun to use and play around with, the most effective set will be the main one posted. The set covers for its lack of speed with a combination of Fake Out/Bullet Punch, while still being able to tear through some of the top threats in the current metagame with Close Combat.

Some noticeable walls that can completely shut down Hariyama include : Claydol, Cofagrigus, Spiritomb, Dusknoir, Gligar, Qwilfish (To an extent), Slowking, and Uxie.

While Hariyama doesn't fail to do a good amount of damage to all of these walls, it usually won't win 1v1 against them. Enough of the big guy, lets move on.

WHIMSICOTT

The cute little bugger that dropped from OU to UU and UU to RU. Fluffers over here can be one of the most annoying things in your life if you have nothing to handle it at all. With its ability prankster to make all non attacking moves go first. If you're not using a non attacking move, I'm sure you will still go first with its base 116 speed, one of the highest in all of RU.

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Whimsicott (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Leech Seed
- Encore
- Substitute
- Taunt

This is the most common of all whimsicott sets, and not even the most annoying.

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Whimsicott (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Stun Spore
- U-turn
- Taunt
- Encore

This sets a little less common but is 5x more annoying than the other. Because we all know that Priority Stun Spore always gets the full para on the same turn .

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Whimsicott (F) @ Heat Rock Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Sunny Day
- U-turn
- Memento
- Encore

Obviously not much of an annoyer set but definitely is scary with priority sun + memento to bring in a chlorophyll sweeper.

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Whimsicott (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Cotton Guard
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Swagger

Just a random set I thought up of without testing, Cotton Guard to raise its defense by three whole stages. Swagger to get some confusion damage on the opponent while not affecting Whimsicott too much since its at +3/6 Defense. Leech Seed for consistent damage and Substitute yah.

All in all, from the uniqueness of Whimsicott, and how many sets it can run, there is no 100% counter that can beat all sets. And if there is one, it risks being weakened by Leech Seed, crippled by Stun Spore, or set up on.

CRADILY.

Now I haven't used this thing much in RU. But I seriously regret never using it after thinking about it for a little bit. While there isn't any permanent sandstorm in RU, this guy is still a monster with great bulk.

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Cradily (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Recover
- Energy Ball
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Hidden Power [Rock]

This is probably the best support set that Cradily could use. Sets up Stealth Rocks, and much like its youngin', Lileep in LC, used to wall Chinchou, well its father Cradily over here walls Lanturn. It also deals with the uncommon ferroseed, taking jack crap from its attacks and can kill it with fire (Literally!). While if you're using Hidden Power Rock, this set can beat Moltres in a one on one matchup.

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Cradily (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Suction Cups
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Curse
- Recover
- Rock Slide
- Seed Bomb

This is a more offensive Cradily set, and is an ultimate wall. Curse Boosts its attack, its already good defense, and lowers its speed which no one cares about. Recovers when its low, AND ATTACKS WHEN IT IS READY. There isn't much in RU that walls this set, and can do something back to it.

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Cradily (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Storm Drain
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Recover

The most offensive set for Cradily, and is a great power house after an SD.
Not much that I can say about this set since I haven't done any testing yet.



THATS MY LITTLE RESEARCH FOR THE TIME BEING, I WILL EDIT THIS POST WHEN I HAVE DONE TESTING. :)

 

[lars]

Wow, with the above posts, there hardly seems much more to say. I have faced each of these threats a few times so I will attempt to make some comments from that side of things to contribute new information.

I'll start with the most annoying.

>.> Whimsicott

I've had to work around this little prankster more than the others and he always makes me yell at my computer... (slight exaggeration I guess)

Usually the sets include Substitute, leech seed, encore, and Stun spore/u-turn

Whimsicott always hinders my typical sweepers and I don't think I've ever clean swept one. Encore the sucker punch or substitute on Honchkrow and I have to switch out. It can even stop typhlosion and sharpedo with subseed.

Nearly a sure fire way to eventually beat it is with Bulky Grass types (which I tend to use more than is probably healthy) Amoonguss and Tangrowth don't have an easy time directly beating it (usually clear smog and HP fire is what I've had to use), but Whimsicott can do nothing back and will switch out. I also generally carry a pursuit user or two on my teams so with some prediction I can wear everything else slowly down and Whimsicott will usually be one of the last I have to beat to win. Generally I use a powerful scout (manectric or primeape) to take the encore/leech seed or to break the sub as the u-turn/volt switch hits and go to Tangrowth who more or less stalls Whimsicott out.

Cradily is the second most annoying.

I have fallen to a curse variant every once in a while especially if it has toxic spike support. I generally don't have strong stall breakers on my teams so my sole counter to most cradily sets is either taunt, sleep, or trick. After it is hindered (especially with trick), beating it isn't too hard if you have some strong ice or fighting moves. Direct Cradily counters aren't all that common (probably mirroring Cradily usage) and most teams use phazing to beat boosters, not Hazing. Cradily is awesome in this regard and is certainly a consistent threat. If Cradily's team support manages to take out my check or two, a boosting set can usually best me.

Hariyama. Beast.

My biggest beef here is that I think people use it wrong. Too much RestTalk with Force Palm and Whirlwind. I can usually manage to taunt/trick/ or at least leech seed it to minimize damage and then wait until a powerful physical attacker is blown in and do good damage to wear it down. While this can be a nice support set, Hariyama needs to see more offense. I've seen something similar to the bulk up set listed above and it worked really well, taking out a couple of my team members at least.

The Guts sets are woefully underused also, awesome protection against sleep status and nothing without a Ghost typing to its name will want to take too many Close Combats (well Tangrowth and Amoonguss can still probably do alright) to the face. This set is seriously scary without a ghost on your team to help curb its destruction.

EDIT: someone I was helping get into RU used a team from youtube with huts haiyama. Thankfully I had tangrowth as a full stop, but with payback it even did heavy damage to spiritomb. Close combat is a bit of a letdown tbh , it really undermines his bulk and he is slow so he will usually have to take hits

I wish I could say more, but even with a lot of battles under my belt (estimate maybe 350 this year, not a ton, but a lot) I can't have seen Whimsicott more than 20 times and the other 2 more than 10. They easily pulled their weight when I had to deal with them; they are much better than some of the other things I see running around more often.

*I will add more if I run across them and have more to say

 

[sheniqua]

So the only one of these I have used seriously is Cradily. I was using a rain team i needed something to set up on the uber walls like Munchlax that even +2 Gorebyss couldn't kill. I used a curse set, I thought it was the standard curse set, it made the most sense to me, but i guess it is slightly different.

Cradily @ Leftovers Trait: Suction Cups
EVs: 252HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef
Careful Nature (+SDef , -SAtk)
- Curse
- Rest
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide

I decided to use rest on Cradily because Curse is a slow developing boost. If Cradily gets hit by a toxic, there won't be enough time to set up curses, even if you have recover. I also used Earthquake instead of Seed Bomb. I didn't have much reasoning for this, it just seems to have a lot better coverage. I guess that Quagsire walls you then, but i never really see it in RU.

I think the best teammates for this are heavy offensive pokemon that draw in Munchlax, Slowking, and other walls without a lot of power. Moltres does this perfectly. It also set up on Whimsicott.

Keep in mind that you probably only have one shot to set it up, so make sure it counts. Also, Cofagrigus with haze obviously dominates this set, as without boosts, Cradily does no damage.

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

I use Whimsicott quite a bit. I use it as a tailwind abuser/annoyer.



Whimsicott @ Iron Ball Abillity: Prankster
EVs: 252HP / 4 atk / 252 SpD
Jolly(+SpD , -SAtk)
- U-Turn
- Tailwind
- Stun Spore
- Trick


A often forgotten trait of Whimsi, is her base 116 speed. Allowing for super fast u-turns. I often lead with whimsi, stun spore if I can, and when they switch iron ball the switch in.

Iron Ball also helps immensely against anything that lives or dies on its speed stat.

Having Tailwind allows my normally slow, but powerful attackers the ability to hit hard, and fast during the turns tailwind is active. I use it in tandem with Prankster Murkrow with Tailwind as well which also helps by spreading paralysis around.

Having to not invest in speed as much, allows for me to invest in bulk as well for my attackers which is extremely handy at times. And a lot of my wins have been a direct result of Whimsi being awesome =P

Believe me, you have no idea how fun it its to give a swellow an iron ball lol

 

[MarvelScaleSamurai7k]

I use Whimsicott quite a bit. I use it as a tailwind abuser/annoyer.



Whimsicott @ Iron Ball Abillity: Prankster
EVs: 252HP / 4 atk / 252 SpD
Jolly(+SpD , -SAtk)
- U-Turn
- Tailwind
- Stun Spore
- Trick


A often forgotten trait of Whimsi, is her base 116 speed. Allowing for super fast u-turns. I often lead with whimsi, stun spore if I can, and when they switch iron ball the switch in.

Iron Ball also helps immensely against anything that lives or dies on its speed stat.

Having Tailwind allows my normally slow, but powerful attackers the ability to hit hard, and fast during the turns tailwind is active. I use it in tandem with Prankster Murkrow with Tailwind as well which also helps by spreading paralysis around.

Having to not invest in speed as much, allows for me to invest in bulk as well for my attackers which is extremely handy at times. And a lot of my wins have been a direct result of Whimsi being awesome =P

Believe me, you have no idea how fun it its to give a swellow an iron ball lol

I've heard whimsicott is supposed to be amazing with tailwind i've gotta test it. i run Whimsicott (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Leech Seed
- Encore
- Substitute
- Taunt
I put my ev's in SP.DEF to avoid getting swept by non fire types and ice type shooting ice beam and flamethrower That's usually the only thing that give me a problem with whimsicott. I'm still experimenting with this game tho because i'm new to competitive battle and still don't fully understand everything.
Question would changing the Ev's frm DEF. to SPEED make sence in this set to better outrun other pokemon?

 

[A Fhaol Bhig]

No, because you don't have an attacking move, so you actually don't need to invest in speed at all because of prankster.