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Tree69420

早上好中国、现在我有bing chilling!
is a Tiering Contributor
Alright the Lapras+Hypno meta VR has concluded
Thanks to Fc Howlsome Ice Yazu juoean phoopes pokemonisfun Sabelette Shellnuts stunner047 and Volk for sending in rankings. The tiering and rankings were made with the vapicuno method. All the data can be found here.

Survey methodology:
- Everyone literally just submitted their own VRs
- I made a tiermaker as a suggestion with every single plausibly viable pokemon
- The VR acceptance time period was roughly 2 weeks

The average outlier-compensated viability rankings are as follows.
01 Hypno
02 Lapras
03 Persian
04 Dragonite
05 Tentacruel
06 Kadabra
07 Kangaskhan
08 Dugtrio
09 Electabuzz
10 Dodrio
11 Haunter
12 Electrode
13 Golem
14 Gyarados
15 Articuno
16 Raichu
17 Moltres
18 Clefable
19 Victreebel
20 Mr. Mime
21 Dewgong
22 Charizard
23 Nidoking
24 Ninetales
25 Magneton
26 Arcanine
27 Sandslash
28 Omastar
29 Aerodactyl
30 Pinsir
31 Rapidash
32 Poliwrath
33 Tangela
34 Venusaur
35 Vaporeon
36 Golduck
37 Raticate
38 Kabutops
Considering only pokemon that were ranked by 3 or more players, we get the following reduced list.
01 Hypno
02 Lapras
03 Persian
04 Dragonite
05 Tentacruel
06 Kadabra
07 Kangaskhan
08 Dugtrio
09 Electabuzz
10 Dodrio
11 Haunter
12 Electrode
13 Golem
14 Gyarados
15 Articuno
16 Raichu
17 Moltres
18 Clefable
19 Victreebel
20 Mr. Mime
21 Magneton
22 Omastar
23 Aerodactyl
24 Pinsir
25 Poliwrath
26 Venusaur
27 Vaporeon
28 Raticate
Lastly, from the data collected, the following tiers were obtained.
S: :Hypno::Lapras:
A: :Persian::Dragonite::Tentacruel::Kadabra::Kangaskhan:
B1: :Dugtrio::Electabuzz::Dodrio::Haunter:
B2: :Electrode::Golem::Gyarados:
B3: :Articuno::Raichu::Moltres:
C: :Clefable::Victreebel::Mr. Mime:
D: :Magneton::Omastar::Aerodactyl::Pinsir::Poliwrath::Venusaur::Vaporeon::Raticate:
*The script had like 6 seperate tiers for the mons in D tier and I just merged them all because it didnt make much sense

The old VR tiers are as follows.
S:
:Tentacruel:
:Hypno:

A1:
:Dugtrio:
:Kadabra:
:Dragonite:

A2:
:Articuno:
:Persian:
:Kangaskhan:
:Gyarados:

A3:
:Vaporeon:

B1:
:Dodrio:
:Haunter:
:Venusaur:
:Tangela:
:Electabuzz:

B2:
:Omastar:
:Aerodactyl:
:Dewgong:

C1:
:Poliwrath:
:Raichu:
:Golem:
:Clefable:
:Raticate:

C2:
:Pinsir:
:Dragonair:
:Electrode:
:Venomoth:
:Moltres:

D:
:Kabutops:
:Blastoise:
:Charizard:
:Nidoking:
:Golduck:
:Nidoqueen:
:Fearow:
:Butterfree:
:Seaking:

E: :Magneton::Arbok::Scyther:

Tier Creation Process:

First, the data is cleaned by compensating outliers 1 standard deviation away from the edge of the percentiles expected to contain +/- 1 standard deviation of a normal distribution. The compensation is done by bringing these points to the edge of this extended range. This results in only a few outliers being corrected. We then plot the outlier-removed data against the integer rank to obtain the following graph:
1685687277083.png

Overall, the tiers are very cleanly defined throughout the entire VR and the tier lines can easily be drawn by eye in most locations. In order to verify these tier divisions, we turn to hierarchical clustering to form the tiers. You can read a quote from vapicuno but TL;DR big number = dark square = disagreements on placement

Performing this for all ranked Pokemon from Hypno to Raticate gives us the following dendrogram and dissimilarity matrix.

1685687570119.png

1685687582597.png


We can also create dendrograms based on how similarly voters ranked sections of mons.
Here are 3 based on the S and A tiers, the S through B tiers, and the C and D tiers.
1685687959048.png

1685687961830.png

1685687963619.png
A similarity matrix can also be drawn with this data over the overall voting.
1685688353991.png
The voters can also be organized into camps based on how they voted, in this case, the phoopes camp and the anti-phoopes camp.
I really can't be assed to explain these graphs so here you go
1685688483937.png

1685688495880.png

1685688501310.png
This analysis yields the following VR tiers:

S: :Hypno::Lapras:
A: :Persian::Dragonite::Tentacruel::Kadabra::Kangaskhan:
B1: :Dugtrio::Electabuzz::Dodrio::Haunter:
B2: :Electrode::Golem::Gyarados:
B3: :Articuno::Raichu::Moltres:
C: :Clefable::Victreebel::Mr. Mime:
D: :Magneton::Omastar::Aerodactyl::Pinsir::Poliwrath::Venusaur::Vaporeon::Raticate:
*The script had like 6 seperate tiers for the mons in D tier and I just merged them all because it didnt make much sense

Friendly reminder: this was all entirely for interest and will not impact the official tiering in any way.
If you have any questions or comments, feel free to ask, thanks for reading.
 

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Tree69420

早上好中国、现在我有bing chilling!
is a Tiering Contributor
View attachment 536937

Trode, in my earnest assessment, emanates an aura of superiority compared to Dug. Although it behooves me to acknowledge that there exists a rather sizable contingent of fervent Dug enthusiasts. These two distinguished Pokémon, by virtue of their exceptional speed tiers, proffer themselves as truly commendable alternatives to the illustrious Persian. Moreover, I must point out, dear interlocutor, that it is genuinely plausible to deploy Trode or Dug alongside Persian, as each offers unique strengths that can enhance your team's capabilities. Additionally, a viable strategy involves including all four Pokémon—Trode, Dug, Persian, and Kadabra—forming a formidable quartet.

Upon deep reflection, I find myself inclined to lean towards Raichu as the preeminent choice, overshadowing the merits of Buzz. Yet, when I set forth to actualize a formidable double Electric team, I discern an inexplicable sense of reassurance ensconced within my psyche upon entrusting the mantle to none other than Electabuzz. Its unparalleled capacity to match Kadabra in speed grants it a distinctive edge, allowing it to stand toe-to-toe with its formidable counterpart. The proposition to accord precedence to one over the other merits valid contemplation. It is, without a doubt, an intriguing prospect to explore the synergistic potential of a Trode+Chu double Electric configuration, which, at first blush, appears to hold a distinct advantage on the theoretical plane. Nevertheless, for the time being, I incline towards the Pokémon with which I have cultivated a deeper bond of affinity. Of course, it ought not to escape one's awareness that the alternative of a triple Electric formation remains firmly entrenched within the realm of viable possibilities.

Dewgong takes on a pivotal role as a counter-lead against Clefable, skillfully navigating the battlefield to confront its opponent. While these encounters often result in an equitable exchange of blows, Dewgong proves its mettle in such confrontations. Additionally, this versatile Pokémon serves as an invaluable back-up option, especially when facing the formidable Articuno, a Pokémon that has seen a remarkable resurgence in strength and prominence. Dewgong's capabilities extend beyond its specialized roles, finding utility in various matchups. Its prowess shines when confronting the formidable Kangaskhan, the elusive Kadabra, the swift Persian, and the agile Dugtrio. It remains a potent force against these opponents, showcasing its adaptability and value in diverse scenarios. However, it's essential to recognize that Dewgong, as a slower Pokémon, comes with certain trade-offs and considerations. To wield it effectively, one must weigh the opportunity cost of using a more methodical contender like Dewgong amidst the fast-paced landscape of competitive battles.

Free Agilispin Moltres, my compatriots! Embrace this unique strategy that combines the prowess of Agility, an exceptional move that bolsters Moltres' speed, and the relentless spin maneuver to vanquish all adversaries. Witness the enthralling spectacle of Moltres soaring with unparalleled speed, gracefully outmaneuvering its foes, and leaving naught but awe in its wake. Emboldened by this audacious tactic, let the fire bird reign supreme on the battlefield, blazing its path to triumph with unwavering finesse.
English pls
 
Screenshot_20230724_125927_Chrome.jpg

S+
:Kangaskhan: - Probably the best Pokèmon in the tier, hits hard with its STAB Normal type attacks, Earthquake hits Haunter, Tentacruel, and Electric types for good damage, and its great physical bulk in combination with Counter lets it win the 1v1 vs most other physical attackers, it can even beat special attackers if they have been paralysed beforehand. Its one flaw is its awful Special stat, meaning it is 2 or 3HKOed by nearly every special attack in the tier.
:Tentacruel: - Is fast, has a hard hitting STAB Surf and Hydro Pump, a Blizzard that OHKOes Dragonite, and Wrap to choke slower opponents into STAB Surf/Hydro Pump range and spread chip damage around the enemy team, Swords Dance can let it play the role of late game finisher, with +2 Wraps hitting some threats for upwards of 8% per hit, Rest is also a useful tool that can allow Tentacruel to survive paralysis, with its decent bulk and Water/Ice resistances letting it burn sleep turns infront of things such as Omastar, Vaporeon, and Dewgong, and even Articuno if healthy.
S
:Persian: - Could also be argued to go into S+, with its Hard hitting STAB Slash and Body Slam letting it slice through foes with ease, It also has access to Bubble Beam and Thunderbolt for coverage if it desires, with Bubble Beam hitting the niche Golem for a 2HKO, and Thunderbolt hitting Omastar for a 3HKO. I dont put Persian in S+ for one reason, it is absoloutly useless in the face of Haunter, letting it onto the field for free and being forced to switch out to something that can deal with it.
:Articuno: - Is an absolute menace and is one of the few reasons why Dewgong is even in UU, tied with Moltres and Zapdos for the strongest unboosted special attack in the entire game, its fearsome STAB Blizzard OHKOes or 2HKOes nearly everytbing that doesnt resist it, even Pokèmon that resist Ice can still be frozen (bar Dewgong) and overwhelmed by Double Edge and Hyper Beam, it also has Agility to patch up its mediocre speed to become the fastest thing on the field in a single turn.
A
:Dugtrio: - Is the fastest thing in the tier outside of Electrode, has a strong hard hitting STAB Earthquake that 2HKOes Tentacruel, Electrode, Raichu , and has Slash and Rock Slide for useful coverage on Pokèmon that have a weakness to Rock Slide or resist Earthquake, and Substitute to set up as a foe switches out, its only problem is its abysmal physical bulk and less than steller special bulk, being outright OHKOed by Kangaskhan's STAB Hyper Beam, and 2HKOed by most other attacks, it cant even switch into Electrode with 100% safety as it can take around 95% from a crit Hyper Beam, while it is outsped and only 2HKOes Electrode in return, which gives Electrode a sizeable chance to actually beat Dugtrio.
:Kadabra: - Has an incredibly powerful Psychic that very few Pokemon can come in on safely, 2HKOing Pokèmon such as Dugtrio and Tentacruel, aswell as outspeeding Tentacruel and tying with Electabuzz with 105 Speed. Kadabra also has access to Thunder Wave to spread paralysis across the enemy team. The only safe switch ins to its Psychic are other Kadabra, Mr Mime, and Clefable, who all fear paralysis. Kadabra is however, abysmally frail physically, being outright OHKOed by Kangaskans Hyper Beam, and 2HKOed by every other physical attack in the tier.
:Dragonite: - Infamous for its AgiliWrap antics that got the combination of Agility and a partial trapping move banned in UU, even without Agility, is still a major threat, being arguably the best (good) switch in to Dugtrio in the tier, 2HKOing it with Blizzard, while being measly 3HKOed in return from Rock Slide. Dragonites Blizzard is no joke, hitting as hard as Starmie's Blizzard in OU, and has access to TWave to support its team and make opponents slower than it so it can proceed to choke them with Wrap and wittle them down into Blizzard/Body Slam range, it also has great Physical and Special bulk, and resists Omastar and Vaporeons Surf and Hydro Pump.
:Electrode: - The fastest Pokèmon in the entire game, with an astounding 140 speed meaning it will always get an attack of against the opponent before they can move (unless paralysed ofcourse), it also has an amazing 27% crit rate, with a decent 80 special, STAB Thunderbolt, Thunder Wave and access to the defense halving Explosion, this Pokèmon is walled by very little, and can even beat Dugtrio if it manages to crit with Hyper Beam as Dug switches in, its only true wall is the niche Golem.
B+
:Clefable: - Is the best Pokèmon in NU and is also very solid in UU, with good attacking and defensive stats alloeing for Clefable to be a bulky attacker, but also a bulky mixed attacker, with STAB on Body Slam and Hyper Beam, acess to Thunder Wave, and great coverage in the form of Blizzard and Thunderbolt. Its only issue is its poor speed stat, meaning not only will it be taking a hit before it can hit back, but it also is slower than every relevant Pokèmon with Wrap, meaning it is easily choked into bring ko'ed while not really being able to do much back.
B
:Dewgong: - Is by far the best Articuno check in the tier, being immune to freeze, and having a 4x resistance to Articuno's STAB Blizzard, it also has good enough bulk to be able to take Articuno's Double-Edges and Hyper Beam's pretty comfortably unless crit multiple times. It also does good damage to the rest of the tier, with a powerful STAB Blizzard and Surf, aswell as Body Slam to attenpt to paralyse other Water types.
:Raichu: - is an Electric type that directly competes with Electrode and Electabuzz for a spot on most teams, but it has enough positives to warrant being picked over the competition, it has slightly more special than the other two, and Agility to become the fastest thing on the field in a single turn, it also has the benefit of being the only Electric type with Surf, OHKO'ing Golem outright and 2HKOing Dugtrio. It is however, the slowest of the Electric types, speed tying with Tentacruel, Dugtrio also outspeeds and 2HKOes it, meaning if it doesnt have any Agility boosts it is likely to lose the 1v1 unless it gets lucky with a crit.

All this writing is making me sleepy, but I will come back and finish it. soon™
 
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Sleep should get unbanned then later if needed re-tested. Hypno was a major cause of the frustration around sleep (I understand the argument wasn't just "Hypno mirror arghh!!!"). Hypno was a major issue for one very important reason: Hypno was the best mon in the tier by far and was on 100% of serious teams and with its removal it only makes sense to see how Sleep performs.

This tier is also a joke, and from what I've found, most people actually agree with this idea. It makes sense to start with unbanning things rather than banning things if we want to "fix" UU (although if it is balanced, I'm 100% sure unbanning Sleep won't just instantly fix everything).

What Hypno being the best mon meant is that every single team ran not only the best mon in the tier but the best sleep mon in the tier. Combine that with also being one of the best leads and you not only get a mon incredibly powerful being able to spread the "OHKO" status, but also commonly that happening turn 1.

Even with Hypno around, banning sleep actually made Hypno a better lead as the only true Hypno counterleads were faster sleepers (Tent is negative expected value, however Wrap's accuracy at least means it usually will be okay). This was pretty clear during the Lapras meta, Lap didn't suddenly change the lead dynamics. Unbanning sleep could lead to deeper lead dynamics in current UU than "Clef is good into basically everything and Dewgong sometimes freezes or crits Clef"

Of course now, discussions on how sleep affected Hypno is moot, so what about current sleepers? Well, not a single sleeper is mandatory. It's unlikely unbanning sleep just means every game starts with a Sing Clef mirror because unlike running Hypno, there is a genuine opportunity cost to running Clefable. Every single team ran Hypno because Hypno was that good. Sure not every Hypno was a lead or Hypnosis, but there was zero opportunity cost to at least run a Hypno and the fact Hypnosis was an incredibly strong, inconsistent move on Hypno, means a lot of Hypnos will end up running it, and too often two Hypnos doing the same will meet turn 1. However Clefable is nowhere near Hypno's power level and running it genuinely gives up something.

Clefable is simply nowhere even close to Hypno's power level. If Clef is forced out by Wrap or anything else you're playing with Back Clef, which is a viable mon, however has a multitude of issues Hypno didn't have to deal with.

There are multiple issues with Sing Clef that make games devolving into sing mirrors very unlikely:

1. The reward for hitting a Hypnosis on your opponent's Hypno is much, much higher than the reward for hitting a Sing on your opponent's Clefable (Hypno was the best mon, removing it was huge.)
2. Clefable must give up coverage to run Sing, while STAB Psychic coming off 115 Special + SToss is near perfect.
3. Due to Clefable's squishiness and lack of resists, Wrapping it out is even better and it will have trouble actually justifying going for Sing much later. Why try to Sing something that probably 2HKOs you with a single crit when you can go for Thunder Wave? This combined with Clefable giving up coverage makes Clefable being forced to act as a back mon puts you on the back foot. Hypno being forced out means you essentially lose nothing because Hypno was still an incredible Pokemon in the back.
4. Sleep being unbanned means Clef has stronger counterleads in other sleepers, who have their own counterleads, who have their own counterleads. (aka, a lead meta develops and due to the three above points, Clef doesn't become the centerpiece of it, this seems like a boon for lead Tentacruel").

So combine Clef always having to give up coverage, not being quite as good in the back (including when it's forced out by Wrap), being squishier with no resists. Clefable not only is a weaker sleeper and mon in general, but should not even be on 100% of peoples' teams. Back Clef, especially with Sing, is a mon that can do a lot less than many of the other options.

The other sleepers have even less of a case of ever reaching close to mandatory status, however, Haunter deserves special attention for being a great answer to one of the more controversial mons in Persian. The opportunity cost for running Persian is essentially limited to making it harder to fit in other pokemon (typically ones faster than it, Dugtrio and Electrode). Now if we buff Haunter by giving it sleep, now there's even more reason to think twice about running it and with one broken Psychic gone and the other being literally constantly in boom range, Haunter actually has some real promise to be an incredible deterrent for spamming Persian. It also relevantly outspeeds another incredible mon contributing to "just hit things and trade down", Kang. Typically though without sleep Kang wins the 1v1, but Haunter has a chance and at least means you don't have to sit and take slams/beams from Kang.

The point here isn't that Haunter becomes the #1 Pokemon overpowering everyone, it's that Haunter becomes a big factor when considering using two of the biggest issues of the tier. Haunter of course has opportunity costs because it isn't exactly the strongest Pokemon around. Haunter won't make them disappear, and it won't make the "trade down" playstyle unviable, but its increased viability only hurts the incredibly silly playstyle dominating the meta. I really think just the threat of it will at an absolute minimum make Persian usage drop.

Due to no mon who has sleep being incredibly powerful it likely means sleep is optional, there is an opportunity cost to running a sleeper. The issue with Hypno is you are running it 100% of the time, if you don't already have a sleeper, it's not difficult to just slot it on him.

I want to reiterate that even if you disagree and think Sleep will just add more instability, the tier 100% needs change and unbanning things is better than banning things, and Hypno was far and away the biggest abuser of Sleep. It's unpredictable how the game will play out with the meta changes forming current UU. It's only sensible to at least give it a try when we know the tier is in an awful state and the biggest reason Sleep was banned is gone. There are also a lot of people who also support this from what I can tell even if they aren't exactly vocal about it, I genuinely believe people who want sleep tested again are part of a silent majority. There is almost certainly more support to try Sleep than to start banning down til we hit something stable.

However I am aware of one thing, THE VIABILITY RANKINGS OH GOD IF WE CHANGE MORE THINGS IT'S ONLY GOING TO BE DELAYED MORE. So I propose before changing anything we actually get a VR up. Perhaps even let the low tier circuit come to a conclusion with UU as-is. This still has the issue where now the new VR won't necessarily reflect the sleep meta especially in the case of mons that are likely to be NU without sleep, but UU with (NU will get Venu and Vic until it's updated again); but jeez, this list is from back when Hypno and sleep were legal and we already went through testing Lapras and it's clear a ton has changed.

(sorry if this doesn't exactly flow super nicely, i wrote it at work and am getting out soon for an appointment and i think it's good enough to not wait hours to be able to review it closer)
Or just unban Hypno :boi:
 
Sleep should get unbanned then later if needed re-tested. Hypno was a major cause of the frustration around sleep (I understand the argument wasn't just "Hypno mirror arghh!!!"). Hypno was a major issue for one very important reason: Hypno was the best mon in the tier by far and was on 100% of serious teams and with its removal it only makes sense to see how Sleep performs.

This tier is also a joke, and from what I've found, most people actually agree with this idea. It makes sense to start with unbanning things rather than banning things if we want to "fix" UU (although if it is balanced, I'm 100% sure unbanning Sleep won't just instantly fix everything).

What Hypno being the best mon meant is that every single team ran not only the best mon in the tier but the best sleep mon in the tier. Combine that with also being one of the best leads and you not only get a mon incredibly powerful being able to spread the "OHKO" status, but also commonly that happening turn 1.

Even with Hypno around, banning sleep actually made Hypno a better lead as the only true Hypno counterleads were faster sleepers (Tent is negative expected value, however Wrap's accuracy at least means it usually will be okay). This was pretty clear during the Lapras meta, Lap didn't suddenly change the lead dynamics. Unbanning sleep could lead to deeper lead dynamics in current UU than "Clef is good into basically everything and Dewgong sometimes freezes or crits Clef"

Of course now, discussions on how sleep affected Hypno is moot, so what about current sleepers? Well, not a single sleeper is mandatory. It's unlikely unbanning sleep just means every game starts with a Sing Clef mirror because unlike running Hypno, there is a genuine opportunity cost to running Clefable. Every single team ran Hypno because Hypno was that good. Sure not every Hypno was a lead or Hypnosis, but there was zero opportunity cost to at least run a Hypno and the fact Hypnosis was an incredibly strong, inconsistent move on Hypno, means a lot of Hypnos will end up running it, and too often two Hypnos doing the same will meet turn 1. However Clefable is nowhere near Hypno's power level and running it genuinely gives up something.

Clefable is simply nowhere even close to Hypno's power level. If Clef is forced out by Wrap or anything else you're playing with Back Clef, which is a viable mon, however has a multitude of issues Hypno didn't have to deal with.

There are multiple issues with Sing Clef that make games devolving into sing mirrors very unlikely:

1. The reward for hitting a Hypnosis on your opponent's Hypno is much, much higher than the reward for hitting a Sing on your opponent's Clefable (Hypno was the best mon, removing it was huge.)
2. Clefable must give up coverage to run Sing, while STAB Psychic coming off 115 Special + SToss is near perfect.
3. Due to Clefable's squishiness and lack of resists, Wrapping it out is even better and it will have trouble actually justifying going for Sing much later. Why try to Sing something that probably 2HKOs you with a single crit when you can go for Thunder Wave? This combined with Clefable giving up coverage makes Clefable being forced to act as a back mon puts you on the back foot. Hypno being forced out means you essentially lose nothing because Hypno was still an incredible Pokemon in the back.
4. Sleep being unbanned means Clef has stronger counterleads in other sleepers, who have their own counterleads, who have their own counterleads. (aka, a lead meta develops and due to the three above points, Clef doesn't become the centerpiece of it, this seems like a boon for lead Tentacruel").

So combine Clef always having to give up coverage, not being quite as good in the back (including when it's forced out by Wrap), being squishier with no resists. Clefable not only is a weaker sleeper and mon in general, but should not even be on 100% of peoples' teams. Back Clef, especially with Sing, is a mon that can do a lot less than many of the other options.

The other sleepers have even less of a case of ever reaching close to mandatory status, however, Haunter deserves special attention for being a great answer to one of the more controversial mons in Persian. The opportunity cost for running Persian is essentially limited to making it harder to fit in other pokemon (typically ones faster than it, Dugtrio and Electrode). Now if we buff Haunter by giving it sleep, now there's even more reason to think twice about running it and with one broken Psychic gone and the other being literally constantly in boom range, Haunter actually has some real promise to be an incredible deterrent for spamming Persian. It also relevantly outspeeds another incredible mon contributing to "just hit things and trade down", Kang. Typically though without sleep Kang wins the 1v1, but Haunter has a chance and at least means you don't have to sit and take slams/beams from Kang.

The point here isn't that Haunter becomes the #1 Pokemon overpowering everyone, it's that Haunter becomes a big factor when considering using two of the biggest issues of the tier. Haunter of course has opportunity costs because it isn't exactly the strongest Pokemon around. Haunter won't make them disappear, and it won't make the "trade down" playstyle unviable, but its increased viability only hurts the incredibly silly playstyle dominating the meta. I really think just the threat of it will at an absolute minimum make Persian usage drop.

Due to no mon who has sleep being incredibly powerful it likely means sleep is optional, there is an opportunity cost to running a sleeper. The issue with Hypno is you are running it 100% of the time, if you don't already have a sleeper, it's not difficult to just slot it on him.

I want to reiterate that even if you disagree and think Sleep will just add more instability, the tier 100% needs change and unbanning things is better than banning things, and Hypno was far and away the biggest abuser of Sleep. It's unpredictable how the game will play out with the meta changes forming current UU. It's only sensible to at least give it a try when we know the tier is in an awful state and the biggest reason Sleep was banned is gone. There are also a lot of people who also support this from what I can tell even if they aren't exactly vocal about it, I genuinely believe people who want sleep tested again are part of a silent majority. There is almost certainly more support to try Sleep than to start banning down til we hit something stable.

However I am aware of one thing, THE VIABILITY RANKINGS OH GOD IF WE CHANGE MORE THINGS IT'S ONLY GOING TO BE DELAYED MORE. So I propose before changing anything we actually get a VR up. Perhaps even let the low tier circuit come to a conclusion with UU as-is. This still has the issue where now the new VR won't necessarily reflect the sleep meta especially in the case of mons that are likely to be NU without sleep, but UU with (NU will get Venu and Vic until it's updated again); but jeez, this list is from back when Hypno and sleep were legal and we already went through testing Lapras and it's clear a ton has changed.

(sorry if this doesn't exactly flow super nicely, i wrote it at work and am getting out soon for an appointment and i think it's good enough to not wait hours to be able to review it closer)
I disagree with this on a basic level because you wrote this with the basis that sleep isn't a broken mechanic.
You mentioned this when you said "I want to reiterate that even if you disagree and think Sleep will just add more instability" however you never wrote a counter argument to this and instead followed with the fact the tier is unstable and unbanning things is superior to banning things.

I partially agree with the tier needing a change but, and I really want to stress this point Whether you're banning or unbanning things does not matter at all when the goal is to create a balanced metagame. If there's a broken element or the tier is unbalanced than we shouldn't stray away from the better option because of how many bans have/haven't taken place. Now is unbanning or banning the better option here, I don't know but what I can say is unbanning sleep is the wrong option and if it was my personal choice I would want a hypno suspect test
 

Sabelette

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Sleep should absolutely get retested/unbanned and Hypno should stay banned. Hypno was the biggest thing pushing sleep into brokenness and the only way I’m going to support keeping sleep banned is if RBY as a whole decides sleep needs to go from all tiers. Unban sleep so we can get an actually accurate picture of the UU landscape instead of this para spam Clef lead mockery, and let’s see if more offensive threats have to be banned to create a half decent tier after that. Banning stuff like Persian before unbanning sleep is putting the cart before the horse; Persian is probably not going to be happy to see Haunter regain sleep and things like Venusaur have pretty decent bulk to punish Normal-type KOes with retaliatory sleep. As a side effect, this also means the Elec spam teams aren’t so potent since the Grasses actually check them, unlike Dugtrio.
 
I'm pretty sure I DID offer at least arguments to why sleep won't be as oppressive as it was before?
This is actually true I don't know how I missed the part where you mentioned this.

As for your actual argument, while not completely without merit, it falls short on account of our differing opinions.
Just because the biggest abuser of something is banned doesn't mean the mechanic itself will become okay it will just take longer for top players to realize how to efficiently utilize the other pokemon that hold that trait.

To put that in much simpler terms no matter how many sleep abusers we ban it will still be a problem because at its core sleep gives the user a pseudo ko, and while this may work in other metas uu is far too offensive by nature to get sleep to a reasonable level.

With all sleep moves being inaccurate (except spore lmao) and sleep varying on how long it lasts it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out a haunter sleeping a dugtrio switching in and it staying asleep can be the deciding factor in a game when that dugtrio may only get a single turn to wake up and if haunter missed then it's team is on the backfoot and damage is being forced by no fault of the sleep user as they just wanted to get sleep off.

I could go on with the examples but honestly I think sleep is a problem with rby as a whole and uu exacerbates that with its offensive meta.

In a way it is "broken" but it's pretty obviously counterbalanced by the only mons who can spread it being mediocre.
I think the mons that get sleep are fine especially haunter but having a mediocre sleeper is way better than having none at all and in a certain way can make it even more luck based even if it makes sleep worse as a whole see haunter example above.

Preserving mechanics is 1000% better than not preserving them. Sleep - Hypno is entirely unexplored territory and basically everyone agrees UU is awful and needs change. There is pretty obvious reason to start by adding things rather than removing things.
It's amazing how much our opinions differ on this subject and I guess we just cannot agree.

Sleep should absolutely get retested/unbanned and Hypno should stay banned. Hypno was the biggest thing pushing sleep into brokenness and the only way I’m going to support keeping sleep banned is if RBY as a whole decides sleep needs to go from all tiers. Unban sleep so we can get an actually accurate picture of the UU landscape instead of this para spam Clef lead mockery, and let’s see if more offensive threats have to be banned to create a half decent tier after that. Banning stuff like Persian before unbanning sleep is putting the cart before the horse; Persian is probably not going to be happy to see Haunter regain sleep and things like Venusaur have pretty decent bulk to punish Normal-type KOes with retaliatory sleep. As a side effect, this also means the Elec spam teams aren’t so potent since the Grasses actually check them, unlike Dugtrio
Genuinely well written and explained I agree with most of it but the point of interest is when you said you'd only be okay with sleep getting banned if it got banned from rby as a whole.
I could go either way on this but I think a productive path forward is to create a thread where players like myself can discuss whether or not sleep is broken on big scale, cause right now I feel like I'm preaching to the void.
 

Tree69420

早上好中国、现在我有bing chilling!
is a Tiering Contributor
Originally I edited my post but considering it was 3 hours ago it probably is better to doublepost to address things I didn't already



I don't see how being an "psuedo ko" (which i dont agree with but let's just roll with it for now) is an inherent issue. I don't agree that UU is too "offensive" for sleep to be too much and the Hypno ban actually does improve this because you have to give up something to gain sleep. You have to actually give up a team slot that could be used for an offensive mon to trade it for a passive one that can spread a powerful status. This literally lowers incentive to just run offense spam and there's already been further arguments about how sleep can improve the situation (Haunter blocking normals/Venu bulk). Maybe sleep breaks offense when the difference in meta is Hypnosis Hypno + Offense spam vs Sleepless Hypno + Offense spam. Now you don't get a freebie mon to spread sleep, you have to give up a slot to get sleep. It's harder to fit Kang and Persian and Dragonite and Cuno and all the other things you may want then decide you want a passive sleeper.

Also, if offense breaks sleep, and UU is bad because it's primarily too offensive (especially when we think that even with a sleep ban), then offense is the issue and not sleep no? Without that offense is sleep fair? The only way to know is actually unban sleep and judge the meta outlook. No, fixing offense then unbanning sleep is not the same because all the bans you just did are Pokemon that were broken in an entirely different meta. You need to see what's broken with sleep, then ban any issues.

I didn't even agree with the initial sleep ban and never understood the offense argument. I feel like all it did even with Hypno around is just make Hypno an uncounterable lead and encourage offense spam even more. At least it removed Hypnosis Hypno mirrors those really did seem toxic, but now that's a solved issue anyway.
I'm guessing that it was banned as a last chance for Hypno to stay in the tier while allowing Lap to be tested in the future (lapras with sing is clearly broken if it doesnt miss)
 

Tree69420

早上好中国、现在我有bing chilling!
is a Tiering Contributor
1700957984664.png

Decided to make and write up a VR after finishing the RBYPL season

S+:

:articuno: Gonna have to call this the best mon in the tier, Dug and Kad are also really good but the way this mon just pulls sweeps out of its ass and how all of its answers either fold to 1 crit or 1 freeze. It may as well be a result of flawed play but I can't deny how well this mon pulls value.
:dugtrio: The ultimate bullshit mon, can easily crit through whole teams especially how often teams stack mons that get crit OHKOd by this. Also the best revenge killer in the tier, can easily Sub up on sacs, etc etc
:kadabra: This is the most splashable mon in the tier TBH, it's on literally all but 1 of my serious teams just due to how well it checks Tentacruel, Haunter, and itself. However, being its own best check is also a big downside because after taking para it gets bullied by a lot of stuff due to its physical frailty.

S:

:tentacruel: This is still clearly one of the best mons in the tier, being the only real defensive Cuno check faster than it, and being able to choke out half the tier is amazing. However, it also often brings a Dugtrio weakness where nearly your entire team gets crit-OHKOd by it, and it's only 1 crit away from losing to a +2 speed Cuno.
:kangaskhan: Honestly I debated putting this over Dodrio, as they're extremely close in my eyes, as Normal-type attackers that also serve as counterpunching Dugtrio checks. Decided to give the edge to Kang due to how it doesnt accentuate the Cuno weaknesses that most teams have before adding a water type, but I would honestly flip this depending on mood. A big issue is how it gets worn down over the course of a game, as a 50% Kang is vastly different from an 100% one in a way no other mon in the tier is.
:dodrio: Insanely good mon so it feels so bad putting it at 6, but some mon is gonna have to be #6 and it's Dodo today. Being the best Dug EQ switchin and the only one that's actually a good mon outside of the Dug matchup is massive, but being OHKOd by Cuno/Gong is also really bad for it.
:haunter: Best sleeper in the tier by a long shot, Explosion lets it serve as a solid Cuno check, but really feels like it's worse than the other top 7 mons. Being OHKOd by Dug EQ is bad for it, but the Tent and Kadabra matchups are surprisingly playable (Explosion OHKOs Kad, mutual 3HKO with tent but Psychic special drop chance), and its mere existence in the tier forces Kangs to think twice before clicking Normal moves. Hypnosis accuracy still leaves a lot to be desired.

A

:electabuzz: IMO the best and most solid all around lead in the tier, matches up fine vs pretty much every mon. Main issue is Golem who is a capital T Threat, but has all around solid matchups across the board vs the top 7
:dewgong: The best Articuno answer in the game, but its STAB Blizzard also hits very hard. Sharing checks with Cuno lets it wear them down for a #CUNOSWEEP, and OHKOing Dodrio/2HKOing Kang is very nice.
:gyarados: Idg why everyone keeps underrating this mon. Pressure from Haunter/Golem forcing Kang to click EQ gets this mon free entry points, and it has the coverage and stats to nuke the entire meta. I actually had this above Dewgong until my tour game with Amaranth where Gyarados missed 2 Hydro Pumps in a row while Dewgong got god RNG and singlehandedly won my game. Hydro Pump accuracy is the main issue for it, while you can use Surf it misses out on the Kang 2HKO.
:dragonite: This mon feels like an alternate Gyarados, with wrap and twave instead of stab to threaten kang/haunter. Pivoting is always nice as is the Hyper Beam/PT bug, but Gyara feels like it has a better matchup spread. Alternatively, it can lead or run an Agility set to break holes. Being slower than and OHKOd by Cuno is the main drawback tbh,

B

:golem: The best Dodo answer, has no switchins (base 110 attack hits like a truck, who would've guessed). Most teams without Tangela have to resort to trading for it with Kangaskhan/Clefable or pivoting out of their mind, or just accept that it'll go 1.5-2 for 1.
:tangela: I know I was very low on this at the beginning of the meta, but it's really proven itself to me despite my 0 usages of it. Best Dug wall in the tier, eats hits from pretty much every mon without SE hits for it. After Sleep it's not threatening at all and most sets being "walled" by Golem is pretty funny, but you can't say no to a Dug wall packing an OHKO button.
:clefable: This mon is def underexplored. I think of it as almost an alternative Dragonite, trading the EQ immunity and Wrap for not being OHKOd by Cuno/Tent/Gong. Psychic to smack Haunter is a solid option and it does have more moveslots than Dragonite.
:omastar: Feels like a Golem/Dewgong role compressor, but deals with clear problems. EQ weakness leaves it far more susceptible while resting, but without Rest, after Dodrio comes through you just die to Cuno. Hydro Pump accuracy is also a big issue vs Kang (Hydro is needed to get the 2HKO vs Kang). Being a wall to Dnite and Surfless Gong is pretty nice.
:electrode: Fastest mon in the tier, Explosion is nice utility, etc, but being hard walled by Golem is huge negative. It's also the best non-Water type at being a Cuno check (Twave if they agilitied, otherwise just Boom if you're in Blizz range). I just feel like the other higher mons are better at their jobs/have better jobs to do.

C

:vaporeon: Did you know that in terms of non-Ice types, Vaporeon is the best Articuno wall? Acid Armor is a cool option to beat physical attackers and waste Tent's PP. The massive special bulk also lets it trade weirdly well with Electrics and Kad. However, it's pretty crit prone and in most cases you'd rather have one of the other waters.

-------------------------------------- Every mon under this line is pure theorymon, except raichu kinda-----------------------------------------------------

:raichu: Electric type, matches up very well into Gyara/Golem comps but is otherwise lackluster, being an electric type whos Tent MU is a coinflip is really ass, also unfavored flip vs Dodrio, has 4MSS issues (want Agility, want Surf to bully ground types, want normal type move to pressure Kad)
:venomoth: Basically Tangela except with a speed tier, without being solid vs Dug, dying to Kad, but can output similar levels of offensive pressure as Haunter (minus the boom part)
:ninetales: Fire type that can switch into and beat Cuno the vast majority of the time (Articuno Blizzard vs. Ninetales: 153-180 (43.8 - 51.5%) -- 8.4% chance to 2HKO), Tent/Dodrio speed tie can be nice
:poliwrath: Amnesia "sweeper" can boost up vs Cuno, melts to crit and has a ton of flaws but theoretically can do something
:persian: RIP Shellnuts lmaoooo Don't take this mon for granted and you will do fine vs it, walled by Haunter and opens up Cuno far too much
:victreebel: Strong grass stab, Wrap, Double Powder, surely this does something right?

D

:charizard: The RBY mascot, Tentacruel speed tie and 2HKOs with EQ, SD Hbeam is pretty strong
:moltres: Articuno cope, can kinda break holes for it but walled by Omastar sucks ass
:aerodactyl: Has solid traits like the second best speed tier outspeeding Dug, HBeam resist, etc. On the other hand, it's Aerodactyl.
:venusaur: Pretty much all the other sleepers are better than it, can't touch haunter and is pretty much everything else in top 7 food. Even in lead is generally worse than Venomoth
:arcanine: Alternative Ninetales that trades better Normal type damage for the speed tier, Articuno 2HKO death roll, and strength.

E

:seaking: This is so far down the ladder of agility sweepers but you can theoretically break for Cuno while resisting its STAB
:magneton: If you forget that we have 2 good ground types in the tier it's actually solid
:pinsir: is basically worse Persian except it can 4HKO Haunter

Garbage

:exeggcute: I thought this was a solid C tier mon until it did 17% to Dragonite with STAB Psychic. Kad switchin my ass it tickles the rest of the tier
:mr mime: Kad at home, Electabuzz is better in 99% of cases
:seadra: Imagine being outclassed by Seaking LMAOOOOO
:rapidash: I'm only ranking this because I used it for its name on the GOAT team, if it was any other fire I would've won that game.
 
:rb/dugtrio:RBY UU Samples:rb/articuno:
With the spotlight tour starting earlier today, and the ladder moving along well. I attempted to get the old, outdated samples on the RoA website updated with newer, legal teams. Unfortunately there is no one around at this current time to update the samples, with Susciety saying to give it 2 weeks before someone can take charge. In the meantime while this spotlight tour and ladder are ongoing I've decided to post the sample dump I've collected here while we wait. Have fun!
---------------
Buzz Gong by Tree69420
Generic Lead Dug, SD Tent by Tree69420
Lead Clefable GyaraHaunt by Tree69420
Fast Spam by Tree69420
GyaraGolem by Tree69420
Lead Dodrio Double Water (SD) by NotVeryCake
Lead Golem + TangGong by NotVeryCake
Lead Buzz Double Ice + Tent by NotVeryCake
Lead Dodo + TrodeTang (Iceless) by NotVeryCake
Lead Dnite Double Ice + Dug by NotVeryCake
 
Last edited:

phoopes

I did it again
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The "Buzz Gong" and "Generic Lead Dug, SD Tent" both link to the Buzz Gong team.

The "Lead Golem Double Ice + Tang" and "Lead Buzz Double Ice + Tent" both link to the lead Golem team. That team is also listed as double Ice but only has one Ice type on it.

That said, really appreciate the effort here! Thanks NotVeryCake and Tree69420! I encourage folks to try these teams out on the ladder or in friendlies to see what they're all about if you haven't already, that way we can kind of QC things. This assuming the reintroduction of sleep goes through. Thanks again!
 
:rb/dugtrio:RBY UU Samples:rb/articuno:
With the spotlight tour starting earlier today, and the ladder moving along well. I attempted to get the old, outdated samples on the RoA website updated with newer, legal teams. Unfortunately there is no one around at this current time to update the samples, with Susciety saying to give it 2 weeks before someone can take charge. In the meantime while this spotlight tour and ladder are ongoing I've decided to post the sample dump I've collected here while we wait. Have fun!
Thank you very much NotVeryCake for your effort and for thinking about new players wanting to try the RBY UU meta with updated teams.
:Smogjynx:
 
The "Buzz Gong" and "Generic Lead Dug, SD Tent" both link to the Buzz Gong team.

The "Lead Golem Double Ice + Tang" and "Lead Buzz Double Ice + Tent" both link to the lead Golem team. That team is also listed as double Ice but only has one Ice type on it.

That said, really appreciate the effort here! Thanks NotVeryCake and Tree69420! I encourage folks to try these teams out on the ladder or in friendlies to see what they're all about if you haven't already, that way we can kind of QC things. This assuming the reintroduction of sleep goes through. Thanks again!
Fixed :heart:
 

Sabelette

from the river to the sea
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I want to talk about Ninetales. I think this mon is a real B- threat that people should rank. It's a really solid lead with good matchups into nearly every common lead and it's pretty impossible to switch into - none of Dragonite, Tentacruel, or Dugtrio can risk burn or paralysis. Things it has going for it include STAB Fire Blast in a tier where only two real resists exist (Omastar and Vaporeon, both of which are borderline NU according to prevailing opinion at present), Confuse Ray to harass Haunter or paralyzed foes, access to Body Slam, and 100 Speed to let it tie Dodrio and Tentacruel as well as outrun Haunter and Kangaskhan. I want to break down the typical lead matchups below a little bit to show why I think this mon's actually pretty nice.

Haunter: Cray reduces Hypnosis to a mere 30% accuracy and after a self-hit, Fire Blast is a 2HKO. Very favorable for Tales despite the 30% "get fucked" chance.

Tangela: Should be obvious, crit OHKO odds + 25% miss odds gives you a solid 50/50 to win matchup + completely stops Tang from checking Dug, ever, or if you're greedy you can go for cray 62.5%. Fire Blast on a switch is pretty nice too, even Tent isn't thrilled to risk the burn.

Dodrio: This right here is why I think Tales is cracked. You 2HKO Dodrio with Fblast and it only has about a 50% chance to 2HKO with Slam-Beam, so not only is Tales MASSIVELY favored to just win outright, but a 30% burn chance on turn 1 automatically wins the matchup as well. Dodrio has to dodge burn, get a paraslam or win speed tie, AND highroll on Hbeam to win the matchup, and it's still taking 55 minimum from FBlast. If it dodges Blast obviously this is horrid for Ninetales but its UU, we're used to 85%s.

Electabuzz: Another great matchup. Buzz barely manages a 4HKO, Fire Blast has tiny odds of a 2HKO that go up dramatically if a burn happens. Either way, Tales is going to take Buzz out with around 40-50% HP unparalyzed or 75% and paralyzed most times, which is enough to force revenge from things like Tent or Dug, which lets Tales control the game flow by pivoting to Tent or Tang and save a sack for later that might also get a shot or two with Blast or Slam.

Tentacruel: One of two actually bad lead matchups, but it's mitigated a lot by the fact that 1) Tent is a terrible lead that loses to Kad/Buzz and risks too much vs slower leads, and 2) Tent is a rare lead in the first place. If you see this, Tales can just go right to Tent and you're barely behind - it's not like facing a lead Kadabra as a Haunter where you know all your options are going to be painful.

Kadabra: This is a fake bad matchup. Slam-Beam has good odds to take Kadabra out so it's forced to Recover constantly; Tales will almost certainly paraslam it and leave it low, at worst, but should win a significant amount of the time. Again, its not like anything wants to switch into Ninetales; Dodrio can't 1v1 Tales, Tent/Dug/Dnite cannot risk paraslam, Haunter gets outsped and confused, etc.

Dragonite: This is the one true bad lead matchup for Tales; it's not bad if Dnite has to switch in, because that gives you 2 shots at it with Slam or Blast, meaning you have >50% odds to status and ruin it. However, if it's a lead Dnite, you get one shot then you get wrapped and forced out, and with your Speed gone its hard to get nearly as much value; about the best Tales can do at that point is sleepblock or fight a back Buzz/Kad.

Here's a replay from UUSA vs The World where I brought it and it did its thing. I get that it's one replay but I think it's notable for showing literally 3 different aspects of why Tales is such a pain: Dodrio matchup, burns, confusion. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1uu-737325
 

Volk

Demonstrably alive.
is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Hi all! A few announcements about RBY UU:

New VR
The RBY UU Council is finally looking to create a new Viability Rankings for RBY UU! This will be an official VR and the results will be moved to the first page of this thread upon completion. The RBY NU Community may use this VR to reshape their tier (and I believe that is their current goal), but that decision is ultimately up to the RBY NU Council, not us. It is also very likely that RBY UU will make another VR later this year, given that the current meta is fairly young and the VR is thus liable to become outdated.
The list of those eligible to submit a VR at this time consists of all those who qualified to vote during the recent Sleep Suspect Test, plus the top three finalists of the recent RBY UU RoA Spotlight Tournament. The list is thus:
Amaranth
Cao Jie
Ice Yazu
Melbelle
MrSoup
NotVeryCake
royzin
Sabelette
Shellnuts
Torchic
Tree69420
Unowndragon
Volk
YBW

Your VR should be submitted to an RBY UU Councilmember or posted in this thread. You will have about two weeks to submit a VR. Please submit your VR before 1/29/24 at 11:59pm, UTC-6. Your VR does not need to include tiers, but it may. Only an ordered list is required.

We are encouraging those submitting a VR to indicate their chosen cutoff point between the Pokemon that they consider UU and those that they consider below UU. This can help us decide tier boundary lines when the data is analyzed.



Survey
A survey designed to collect the opinions of community members regarding RBY UU has been written. I will release it shortly (in less than like 48 hours, most likely). I'm just making sure it looks okay and that it works. A post will be made when it is released.


Leadership Change
Councilmember kjdaas has chosen to step down from the RBY UU Council. The Council thanks her for her service!


Cheers all!
 
this is my submission dont include the bottom one. tang through haunter is up for debate but this is the order i submit
We are encouraging those submitting a VR to indicate their chosen cutoff point between the Pokemon that they consider UU and those that they consider below UU.
 

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