Lower Tiers RBY UU Hub

[Enigami]

10. Venomoth
Sitting at 90 Base speed and having a terrible type combination, Venomoth may seem completely outclassed by Haunter. However, it does has a more accurate Sleep move and also can use Stun Spore to para opposing mons, giving it a slight different niche than Haunter or the other double statuser, Hypno. Of course it's pretty much useless even if it does put Hypno to sleep and then paras the next incoming mon. So Venomoth is pretty much unviable, but slightly notable.

You mention Venomoth being useless beyond dual powder... would Butterfree not be slightly better then? It matches up better against lead Kadabra, also outspeeds Hypno and has EQ immunity for switching into Golem and eating a good chunk out of it with Mega Drain before biting the dust (or baiting Rock Slide for something else like Tentacruel or Poliwrath to come in). Shame Psywave is banned due to Psywave desync, Butterfree's attacking stats are low enough that Psywave would probably be good coverage for it. Heck, get lucky enough and you could 2HKO Kadabra.

Venusaur also seems like it could be worth a mention? Has similar bad matchups as Venomoth and lacks Stun Spore, but it'd be actually useful offensively with Razor Leaf and Swords Dance.

 

[Sevi 7]

Butterfree actually is something that I test in the past, mostly as a lead but also as a non-lead, so I can talk about this with a little bit of authority.
Butterfree's only real advantage is not being weak to psychic and having EQ immunity. Everything about it is worse imo.
Butterfree's only better lead matchup is Kadabra; however, Kadabra cannot OHKO Venomoth without a crit (Butterfree cannot be killed even with a crit). So, barring some bad luck, Venomoth can go against Kadabra. However, neither one wants to take a para and should switch out either way, so its a bit of a moot point.
Butterfree's EQ immunity also comes with a weakness to Ice and a quad weakness to Rock. This means that the very common Blizzard is constantly threatening to 2HKO Butterfree. Furthermore, Butterfree cannot comfortably switch into an EQ, because it can't do anything after. It is OHKO'd by both Golem and Dugtrio and cannot even 2HKO either back. Venomoth's better bulk makes EQ a 3HKO vs Golem and small chance of a 4HKOvs Dugtrio, after MD recovery. Neither one wants to switch into Dugtrio, but Venomoth is actually better vs Golem, despire the EQ immunity.
Lastly, Butterfree's speed tier is way lower than Venomoth's. Butterfree speed ties Poliwrath and is slower than Dragonite, Venusaur, Gyarados and Articuno. Venomoth can also speed tie Kang. Especially since everything but, the rarely seen, Venusaur carries anti-flying moves this is really makes Butterfree worse than Venomoth.
Overall, I like Butterfree and really wanted it to work, and it can do something, but it is worse than Venomoth in almost every way.

Now, I haven't used Venusaur much, but my theorymon makes me think that Venu really doesn't want to go up against Kadabra or Tent, both of whom can OHKO venu with a crit. Hypno can also T Wave Venu on the Sleep Powder miss and now threaten to 2HKO Venu. I think if the meta becomes less focused around the trinity, then Venu will have its place. But Venu only has a decent mu vs Hypno right now and even then that can turn around 25% of the time.

 

[Shellnuts]

So after way too much delay (sorry about that), we have finally put out a survey to gather some data from the UU player base. The survey will be closing on July 5th. While this is going on some work will be put into getting some general tier analyses up for UU such as a Metagame Threatlist, Role Compendium, and so forth.

After we gather the results of the survey we will decide on what to do moving forwards, however, I will try to ensure that the tier gets finalized expeditiously.

Survey Link: https://forms.gle/PbSAj94yGsWvASip9

 

[Shellnuts]

Hi everyone, after some delay (sorry about that, a combination of work, some technical issues, and losing most of the writeup due to me forgetting to save caused the month-long delay) I finished the writeup for the results of the UU survey.

Main Takeaways:

• Most of the respondents play the tier somewhat frequently and have an average to above-average amount of experience with the tier.
• Most respondents think RBY UU is in a fine state but could be improved.
• Most of the respondents would keep playing RBY UU even if nothing changed and most respondents would play the tier at least as much as they do currently if not more.
• The majority of respondents do have some possible ideas for targets of suspects and are willing to take part in suspect tests while being somewhat open to complex bans as a possibility (note that I do think that getting tournament data and the credibility a tournament provides to the tier will be needed to have any chance of pushing changes through, but this was mainly to direct our focus for future changes to the tier) and of those who did want potential suspects, all but one of the respondents wanted to directly target Wrap and other Partial Trapping moves in some way either through a direct ban or banning the use of Agility with them (mainly the use of Agility and Wrap together) however targets such as Tentacruel were also common targets of potential suspects.
• The majority of respondents are open to participating in RBY UU tournaments regardless of if it is changed or not, though overall, respondents are more sure they would play in tournaments if things changed.

Responses were gathered via Google forms, the list of respondents is as follows.

Respondents

Sevi 7
Lusch
Plague von Karma
Shellnuts
Disaster Area
Assessessment (Volk)
Earthworm
mmf/ememeff
Tim
Alumn
Dre89
CrapAtRBY
Victory Victreebel
Alpha Male Psyduck
kjdaas
ReeceHughes

Questions:

Experience and Recent Activity with the tier:

The first two questions in the survey asked the respondents both how frequently they play RBY UU—on a scale of 1 to 5 ranging from hardly at all to all the time—and how experienced the respondent is with RBY UU, with labelled answers between Very experienced with the tier to never having played the tier at all.

Other Responses

One respondent gave the following response: “Played a fair number of games in similar formats, but very few games under the exact RBY UU rules / since the realization of just how good Tentacruel is.”

From these results, we see that the majority of respondents are somewhat frequent players of the tier and that most players are very experienced with the tier, however, overall more respondents report average to no experience with the tier. These results combined give us a picture of how knowledgeable the player base is with the tier, which will inform our decisions moving forwards such as, for example, how many resources need to be put into guides to bring everyone up to speed with the metagame before working on a tour.

State of the tier:

The next set of questions focused on the current state of the tier and how the respondents would react to changes or a lack thereof. The first question asked also enables us to measure how dire the tier needs changes in the first place and tailor our decisions moving forwards with that in mind.

As we can see from this first chart, most players felt that the tier was in an ok spot but could be improved, while only one respondent felt that the tier was in an unhealthy state, from this we can conclude that the tier is not in dire need of changes; however, changes will likely need to be made at some point. However, there is an argument posited by some individuals which wants old tiers to be left unchanged, so to address the possibility that the player base might prefer leaving the metagame as is, we decided to ask how much they would play the tier if changes occurred to the metagame.

As we can see from the data presented, most respondents would play the tier at least as much as they do currently if not more while no players would be sure they would play the tier less if changes were made, which means that it is fairly safe to go ahead with changing the tier in the future since the data indicates that the most likely outcome would be a positive one. For the final question of this group, we asked if the tier stayed the same would they stop playing, which also further helps us determine the state of the tier and how much change is needed. (Though in retrospect, I would have heavily reworded the answers to this question to match the previous one to ensure we gather much more important data, it is what it is I suppose.)

As we can see from both no respondents being certain they would stop playing the tier and most respondents being very certain they would continue playing the tier even if nothing changed. We can further confirm that the tier is in an okay state which further corroborates the plan posited whereby we work on getting the tier into a state where we can begin suspecting issues and making changes for the better of the tier. Note that this is not me implying that a laissez-faire attitude will be taken towards this tier, as stated before, I feel as though some tournament data and the credibility a tournament provides is needed to get any changes pushed to the simulator.

Potential changes:

As discussed previously, the majority of the respondents felt that the tier is fine but could be improved if changes were made to the tier. The next question was intended to give more information from this and tell us what the respondents had in mind as potential targets for suspects or bans. The following questions gave us information on both how eager the respondents would be to participate in suspect tests, and how the respondents felt about complex bans.

Other Responses

One respondent gave the following response: “Tentacruel + Wrap; Dragonite + Agility + Wrap”

As shown from the data, it is obvious that the two most common possible targets for suspects or bans were Agility + Wrap and Tentacruel, both of which we will keep a close eye on for the foreseeable future. What is not obvious from the chart is how commonly answers were selected together, which is why the following table of responses has been provided.

Question:	What specific things, if any, would you consider banning or suspecting (check all that apply)
Responses:	Wrap, Agility + Wrap, Dragonite, Tentacruel
	Dragonite, Tentacruel
	Agility + Wrap, Agility + Partial Trapping, Tentacruel
	Agility + Wrap, Agility + Partial Trapping
	Agility + Wrap, Tentacruel, Tentacruel + Wrap; Dragonite + Agility + Wrap
	Agility + Wrap, Agility + Partial Trapping
	None
	Dragonite, Tentacruel
	Agility + Partial Trapping
	Agility + Wrap
	None
	None
	Agility + Wrap, Tentacruel
	Agility + Wrap
	All forms of Partial Trapping
	Wrap, Tentacruel

From this table, we see several things. First and foremost, of those who had suggested some potential targets of suspects or bans, only two did not directly target Wrap or partial trapping moves directly, and those two targeted the two most prominent users of Wrap in UU. What this tells us moving forwards is that whatever changes we make will have to target Wrap in some way, be it the most prominent users of it, limiting what moves can be used alongside it, or just banning it outright, of those I personally believe that the most likely one would be limiting the use of Wrap alongside Agility since 9 out of the 13 responses which suggested some possible targets for bans included either Agility + Wrap or Agility + Partial Trapping (which thereby includes Agility + Wrap by definition). However, targeting the users of it in some form is also a likely possibility. The second main question of this block which will direct our focus in the way of changes which will be made once the tier is established is how willing the community is in the participation of discussing and testing potential changes.

As you can see from this graph, the respondents were all open to discussing potential bans and changes in the future, and the majority (9/16) were open to playtesting those changes as well, this enables more divisive changes, the definition of which will be elaborated on with the responses to the next question of this block, to be thoroughly tested to ensure that the best outcome is achieved, it also helps keep the leadership honest since being constantly asked about changes or commitments will push them to uphold those commitments (of which one of them, the publishing of this writeup, I lagged on for over a month due to outside factors such as work, and would like to reiterate my sincerest apologies for the delays) which is always a benefit. Lastly, I would like to discuss what I believe would be the main source of issues with changes and would make them divisive, complex bans. This question asked the respondents how comfortable they were with complex bans on a scale of 1 to 5, with one as very uncomfortable and 5 as very comfortable.

As can be clearly seen, there is a very wide spread of views on how open the respondents were with complex bans, which is very interesting since the most common form of limitation most respondents wanted to impose on Wrap or partial trapping moves as a whole was banning its use with Agility, which is by definition a complex ban. Therefore when changes will be made once the tier is more firmly established which, in my view, is demarcated by some sort of official high level competition in a tournament setting of some sort, we will need to discuss the route we take towards limiting wrap due to the aforementioned fact that the most common change people proposed was a complex ban. However, as established by the questions on the state of the tier, we thankfully have a metagame which is not in dire need of changes, therefore getting the data to support whatever route we take towards the limit that will be placed on Wrap in the future, will be much easier to do so since if the tier were a toxic mess then few people would play a tournament to gather data to support whatever proposed change we decide upon. This helpfully segways into our last topic for the survey, tournament participation.

Tournament participation:

This last subject, as the name states, is about tournament participation, the first question assuming the tier is in its current state and the second one assuming that all changes the respondent proposed were enacted. The results of which are shown in the following two charts (yes, I know the labels do not add to 100%, this was an issue with Google Sheets charting options and the best solution I could come up with ended up causing labels to not add up correctly, sorry about that)

Other Responses

One respondent gave the following response: “not beyond roa room tours when i happen to be online”

As clearly demonstrated by these charts, the vast majority of the community is willing to participate in tournaments which, as mentioned before, is how I demarcate the full establishment of a tier, and where we will go on pursuing the potential changes outlined in the previous section.

Comments on the survey:

Two comments discussed how they feel the tier should go forwards from here.

Responses

We need to host at least one forum-tournament for UU to come to a conclusion. Ideally one with the current rules. Based on that we decide if the tier is fine or if we wanna suspect something. Another tournament with the new rules needs to beld before banning anything, though.

I personally believe we need to host a forum tournament for RBY UU with the current rules to come to any form of conclusion, then from that we can decide if anything needs a suspecting, and if so then we need to host another suspect tournament with the new rules before deciding to ban anything.

Two comments also discussed their views on the state of the tier and their thoughts on bans.

Responses

I'm not really in favour of any bans, but I think if bans were to be made then the ones I ticked (AgiWrap, Tenta, Tenta+Wrap, Dnite+AgiliWrap) would be the most reasonable.

The meta is pretty close to perfect right now. Agility + Partial Trapping is the only thing even remotely worth addressing. I also do not mind if any bans are transitive, if RU/NU ever becomes a thing.

One discussed the respondents limited experience with the tier

Response

I've only really played the format back when it was in its infancy, and otherwise in Stadium mods and on cartridge with an irl friend. I...think I played some UU games via Challenge in the past(?) but hardly remember the details if I did. As such, when I say my experience is "hardly at all", I also mean it's extremely spotty and scattered. My knowledge is limited mainly to my own format research I've done in the past, including conversations with fellow RBY players.

While my opinion hardly matters at all, I hope it'll help at least a little bit. I'm very open to playing the format more in the future, especially if AgiliWrap is kicked out. I want to experience more Gen 1 stuff.

Feel free to throw this out if you feel it's not informed enough, I completely understand if you do so.

As a side note, no I did not throw your results out.

There was one other response to the survey, however it was clearly a troll response complaining about Machamp being in 6U on PP’s tiering system.

Final Remarks:

I would like to thank all the respondents to the survey who put up with the delays with this writeup (again, sorry about that), any feedback on this writeup in the form of a pm is appreciated, thanks.

 

[Sevi 7]

Thank you so much for gathering and compiling the data Shellnuts. It's beautifully done.

Going off the comments from the survey, I will be hosting a tournament to get a better understanding if things need to be suspected. My plan is to host a swiss style tournament in which you will play a Bo3 match a week for 4 weeks. Then after 4 weeks, we can take a vote on whether we want to suspect AgiliWrap or Tentacruel. I (or maybe someone else) will then host suspect tournaments (if any). Are there any objections, comments, questions or concerns with this?

My personal goal is to get the tier ready by December, where it becomes a spotlight ladder.

EDIT: I have applied for an unofficial tournament on Smogon. If for some reason this doesn’t work out, I’ll be hosting it in Pokémon Perfect.

 

[Sevi 7]

Here are a couple of recommendations I have for the lower ranks. Some of these ideas have been floating around on the discord, so I know they're nothing new.

Clefable C -> D
I tried to make this thing work, but it's in such an awkward position as long as Hypno is in the meta. It's niche is 100% theoretical and just not practical. If we split the lower ranks, this would probably be D+ or C-, but until then I think this is closer to D than to C.

Poliwrath C -> B
Poliwrath has taken off in an unexpected way. It's a sleeper, a water-type and gets a good movepool. It's the least defensive of the bulky waters, but it can check Dug and take wrap well. It's not an amazing mon, but it's not niche, and I'd say it's earned it's spot in the B rank.

Venusaur D -> C
Venusaur isn't a great mon, but it can do something with Sleep Powder, Razor Lead, Body Slam and Leech Seed as options. Unlike the other D ranks this is really threatening in certain matchups as it works as a wallbreaker to bulky waters, while also making mons like Kadabra regret switching in if you get a para off of B Slam. If we break down the ranks further it may be more appropriate to put it in D+, but Venu is the better than all the other D ranks and I think it deserves a higher spot.

 

[Khaetis]

may not be the right place to ask this question but, I've heard that RBY UU has experienced controversy in the past and that some people consider the meta-game "broken" is true?

 

[Sevi 7]

may not be the right place to ask this question but, I've heard that RBY UU has experienced controversy in the past and that some people consider the meta-game "broken" is true?

I've only been playing RBY UU for a little less than two years, so I don't really know much about the history, but currently any controversy generally comes from: Agility + Wrap/Dragonite, as it can just completely dominate games; Tentacruel, because it alone kills some mons viabilities; or Wrap, because Dragonite and Tentacruel both dominate through wrap, and/or wrap just isn't fun for a lot of people.

Maybe there's others, but this is what I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Earthworm]

As a retro tier (old gen lower tier developed after the time period that said gen was "current gen" due to the absence of the tier during that time period) enthusiast I am very pleased that RBY's lower tiers are finally gaining more traction here on Smogon. I'm well aware that there have been significant efforts to develop these retro tiers on Pokemon Perfect, and I also know that those tiers have been played quite extensively by some of the community there. Regardless, and without any disrespect to those efforts, I am looking forward to seeing what the RBY lower tier community on Smogon and in RoA can do to produce some enjoyable tiers in the game's generation that relies most on what I see as the fundamentals of singles play. I am confident that the weight of the name Smogon and the longevity of its community will allow the tiers borne from the fruit of our efforts to flourish and not fade into obscurity in some forgotten corner of the internet.

As I'm sure most people reading this will no doubt be aware, I've been trying to develop GSC NU for some time and was involved in recent retiering of that retro tier, and if community interest remains stable I intend to further the development of retro tiers and metagames in GSC through various efforts. I'm also on the Old Gens Council and have been involved in discussing the state of GSC OU and a few other old gen OU tiers where I felt it was pertinent to do so. However, while I could be described as a RBY enthusiast, it's safe to say that I don't have the same level of dedication to it that I do to GSC. I therefore intend not to intervene too much in any efforts to develop RBY retro tiers and instead only provide guidance based on my fairly extensive experience and exposure to tiering processes. As I've mentioned in the RBY Lower Tiers Discord, I think the community will definitely benefit from having a fair and credible tiering leader that takes responsibility for making things happen. It currently looks like Sevi 7 is intending to fulfil that role and I haven't seen anyone object to that. If the RBY lower tier community on Smogon is generally satisfied with this, I don't oppose Sevi 7 trying to take this role on.




I can see from the poll conducted by Shellnuts that the community is largely satisfied with the state of RBY UU (based on the figures that show that a large majority would consider playing in RBY UU tournaments and that they will continue to play if nothing is done). However, I can also see that a significant number of people think that the tier could be improved (based on the figures that show opinions on the current state of RBY UU). Having played a fair few RBY UU RoA Tour Night tours recently, my current opinion is that Dragonite is probably too strong for the tier. I've discussed this at length in the RBY Lower Tiers Discord, and I know that there is a prevailing idea among some users in the community that Dragonite should be preserved and Agility + Wrap should be targeted instead, since without access to this combination, Dragonite is a strong but not overpowering force in the metagame and also has much needed defensive value against Dugtrio. However, I want to caution against banning combinations like this as a general rule and suggest that instead Dragonite be put on the chopping block. It might not seem like a significant thing, but it is a lot more clear to anyone who wants to start playing the tier if the subject of the ban is a Pokemon rather than a combination of moves. I have to admit that Smogon has been incredibly inconsistent with its bans over the years, but I believe it is safe to say that arrangements such as those made to preserve particular game elements and remove only aspects of Pokemon have resulted in less accessible tiers. Furthermore, there is also the slippery slope argument where theoretically any Pokemon in any higher tier could be unbanned if its most powerful strategies were banned through a move ban or combination of move bans. A Pokemon ban has never been convoluted, but the number of convoluted bans and confusing inconsistencies between generations is on broad display if one looks through Smogon's OU tiers' rulesets.

That said, I don't think that there is no place for such bans in any tier. Sometimes situations are encountered where it is impractical to ban all Pokemon that have access to an overpowering strategy, and sometimes other factors need to be taken into account and decisions made that result in these more complex bans. In this particular case however, it is clear enough to me and some others that the combination of Agility + Wrap is not broken in a vacuum. Dragonair has access to the same combination and I would wager that it would not be remotely good in UU if Dragonite was banned. Moltres has access to Agility + Fire Spin and complaints about it are far and few between. Dragonite is so powerful due to its amazing bulk, amazing Attack, and its access to a fantastic combination of moves that push it over the edge.

I'm also aware that some players think that neither Dragonite nor the combination of Agility + Wrap is overpowered. I personally think that Agility Wrap Dragonite, in the context of the tier with all the pressures the powerful offensive Pokemon in the tier bring with them, at the very least places an undesirable constraint on the tier. However, I respect the opinion of anyone that thinks this way as I generally prefer not to touch tiers unless it seems like there is something seriously affecting the enjoyment people have playing the tier (even if it may not seem like this is my preference sometimes, to some people...!).


With that out of the way, I wish everyone all the best playing this and other RBY retro tiers that may be formed. May all of your tentacles suppress the opponent's at breakneck speed.

 

[EB0LA]

VR updates:
-Added sub-ranks (+/-)
-VR has been updated to better reflect current meta.

VR will be re-examined following conclusions of RoA Olympics & RBYPL, where data from the RBY UU games will be collected & analyzed.

 

[Volk]

Okay, first non-analysis related post!
So I know we're waiting on the RoA Olympics and RBYPL, but I wanted to make some nominations in the meantime based primarily on my own experiences, but also a little on what I have seen do well in the tournament. Without further ado, some nominations:

Articuno B+ -> A-
This is a pretty close call for me but I think Articuno is just a little too potent to sit in B Rank. Articuno can occupy a surprisingly large number of roles on a team, including both a special sweeper and defensive piece. It has already been responsible for winning a few tour matches by simply using Agility and just going. Ultimately, I think Articuno is pretty noticeably better than the rest of B+ and not too much worse than Vaporeon (but I'm a bit biased as I'm not a huge fan of Vaporeon).

Raichu B+ -> B / B-
Raichu is just not very good. The two Electric-types in this tier are really nothing special. Pokemon like Kadabra and Dugtrio are much better as anti-Tentacruel Pokemon, as well as just more useful in a general sense. On top of this, Raichu has to compete with Electabuzz. Raichu has Surf over Electabuzz, but the higher speed makes Electabuzz quite a bit more consistent. It isn't surprising that I haven't seen this Pokemon in many tour matches. Electric-types are underwhelming, and this is the worse of the two.

Dodrio B -> B+
First things first, this Pokemon is miles ahead of Raichu. I actually see it in tour matches and use it myself. It is also way ahead of Golem, which happens to share a rank with it. Dodrio is a total menace to deal with and fits pretty well on a lot of teams. This Pokemon looks good on Normal Spam, standard offense, and Wrap-oriented teams. Setting up an Agility in Dugtrio's face is also pretty cool. As the rankings stand right now, Articuno, Dodrio, and Haunter are the good B Rank Pokemon, and the rest are strikingly mediocre.

Golem B -> B-
Golem is struggling quite a lot in the current UU environment. Dugtrio has pretty firmly cemented itself as the Ground-type of the tier, which is bad for Golem because (1) the matchup isn't great and (2) stacking Ground-types isn't always an ideal strategy. Water-types like Vaporeon seem to be on the rise as well which is also not good. Finally, I'm not the first to notice it, but anyone else realize Golem is kind of just bad Kangaskhan? Golem has Explosion and a good Dodrio matchup, but aside from that, Kangaskhan is a better wall-breaker and a heck of a lot faster. I really feel bad for Golem these days.

Tangela C -> C+ / B-
After much deliberation, I think Tangela belongs in B- and in UU at large. Tangela isn't something that belongs on every team, or even most teams, but it fits perfectly on some select teams. Tangela is excellent at role-compression, packing Dugtrio check, Electric check, Sleep, and trapping into one Pokemon. Growth + Mega Drain is another thing that I have seen recently. After some experimentation, I can say the set is actually pretty threatening. If y'all don't think Tangela is ready for B, I get that, but I think there should be something that distinguishes it from the other, largely inferior, C Rank Pokemon.

Dewgong D -> C
This is definitely my weirdest nomination of the bunch. Dewgong was among my more recent tests, alongside stuff like Clefable, Golduck, Tangela, and Raticate. This Pokemon surprised me a lot. Especially as someone who isn't too high on Vaporeon, I figured Dewgong would be pretty useless. However, Dewgong is capable of accomplishing many of the same things Vaporeon can plus some added bonuses. The Ice typing grants Dewgong a really strong Blizzard and an immunity to Freeze. You also get a leg up over Hypno in terms of speed. I think players who are better than me, especially at making and using defensive teams, could push this Pokemon really far. I think really good players could make this Pokemon look like a B+ Rank Pokemon.

Golduck D -> UR
I think this Pokemon and Moltres are completely useless. However, while Moltres has its defenders, I don't think anyone is using Golduck. Golduck can almost never successfully use Amnesia and can't even do much on the off chance it actually sets up. Golduck almost always ends up being a poor man's Vaporeon. If you want a generic bulky Water-type, use Vaporeon (or Dewgong, or Omastar). If you want Amnesia, well, maybe rethink your strategy, but Poliwrath still does a better job thanks to Hypnosis. There is virtually no reason to use this Pokemon. Also, this isn't entirely theory, I have tested it and was disappointed.

All things considered, I really like this new VR. I think S and A Rank are pretty close to perfect right now and B Rank is pretty solid (though Raichu and Dodrio really need to be swapped). I hope this post motivates some discussion and we can start making changes when the relevant tours wrap up. Cheers!

edit: I'm also attaching my own VR for my own reference and so people can get a sense of what the VR would like if any of these suggestions end up getting implemented. Pokemon are (mostly) ordered within subranks, but there are some really close calls. Here it is:

RBY UU VR

S1: Tentacruel,
S2: Hypno,

A1: Dugtrio,
A2: Dragonite, Kadabra,
A3: Gyarados, Kangaskhan, Persian,
A4: Vaporeon, Articuno,

B1: Haunter, Dodrio,
B2: Electabuzz, Omastar,
B3: Tangela, Raichu, Golem, Poliwrath,

C1: Venusaur, Dewgong, Raticate,
C2: Venomoth,

Honorable Mentions (unordered):
Clefable, Pinsir

edit2: lol I called Dugtrio Dodrio.

edit3: moved some stuff around in B Rank on my VR.

 

[Shellnuts]

Hello, so with the upcoming RBY UU tournament and ladder, I wanted to propose some changes to the VR to reflect what I believe is more in-line with the current metagame:

Rise to A-
Similar to Volk, this is a close call for me, but I do think the versatility of Articuno to act as a sweeper, wallbreaker, and an important defensive piece, iI think it has enough going for it to be in A. It can heavily punish players getting a bit too liberal with their Tentacruel and letting it take chip before utterly destroying from there.

Drop to B/B-
Whenever I use Electabuzz on my team as a Tentacruel check, I always ask myself why I don't just use Kadabra, and then promptly replace it with Kadabra. When compared with Kadabra, Electabuzz has hardly any defensive utility due to how uncommonly Thunderbolt and Drill Peck are used, has no recovery outside of Rest, is OHKO'd by Dugtrio 98.6% of the time after a measly 5 Wrap hits from Tentacruel and 69.3% of the time after 4 Wrap hits, and gets stuffed by Hypno and is forced to switch out. It does good damage against Dodrio and Gyarados with Thunderbolt, but are those two mons worth running diet Kadabra? In my opinion, not really.

Drop to B-
Speaking of Electric-types being not very good, I do not find Raichu to be very viable nowadays, it has Surf which is only useful for Golem or Dugtrio on a double-switch, is even easier to chip into Dugtrio range due to it's lower defences—those two points in base defence are significant as it means Raichu dies from Dugtrio 71.3% of the time after 3 Wraps and always dies after 4 hits, and is far less consistent than Electabuzz at dealing with Tentacruel due to Raichu's speed tier. In general, the electrics are outclassed by Kadabra and Dugtrio, but of the two, Electabuzz can consistently deal with Tentacruel, even if for a short while before letting Dugtrio have a field day with your team, Raichu can't even do that.

Rise to B
Tangela is actually good, I'm being dead serious it is actually really nice to have, it's reliability at dealing with Persian and Kangaskhan and it's access to both Sleep Powder and Stun Spore can allow it to support its team very nicely. Furthermore, it's access to Growth is underrated in my opinion as this allows it to deal with Hypnosis Hypno's decently well, and unlike literally every other booster barring some NFE's like Weepinbel or Slowpoke, it has access to reliable paralysis, which means it doesn't fold instantly to Tentacruel coming in since it can paralyze it as it comes in which is a significant advantage for the Tangela user. In most games I have used it in, it at worst trades 1 for 1 while potentially paralyzing 2-3 key Pokemon like Tentacruel and Persian while stopping Dugtrio and sleeping something else. It's a legitimate part of the tier and is definitely worth looking into.

Rise to B
Over these past few weeks, I have gained more respect for Omastar. The benefits it brings when dealing with Normal-type attackers such as Kangaskhan and Persian are noteworthy, and the freedom to play much more aggressively when facing Dragonite, Dodrio, and Articuno is definitely a valuable trait to have. It's not as good as Tangela in my opinion but I think it's better than the Electrics from my experience.

Drop to B/B-
Another classic case of "Why would I run X when Y is better in 95% of games" this time with Dugtrio. Golem's speed tier is atrocious, it is so difficult to get it to do anything since it takes at least half it's health from most special attacks if it doesn't get OHKO'd outright with all the Surfs and Blizzards flying around, and with the rise in Tangela, it has yet another obstacle to deal with. While Golem does hit harder than Dugtrio, it's speed requires paralysis support to get off more than 1 hit before dying and has few opportunities to hit the field, while Dugtrio is able to abuse Wrap to get into position and deal significant damage to the enemy team.

Drop to B-
Volk once described Poliwrath as "aggressively mediocre" and I have to agree. Hypnosis is nice but Hypno, Tangela, and Haunter are better sleepers. It's ok as a bulky water but Tentacruel, Gyarados, Vaporeon, and Omastar are better at that role. It has a versatile moveset but it lacks the power to pose a significant threat in many cases. It is just a mediocre Pokemon, it doesn't have anything that really sets it apart from other Pokemon outside of its mediocrity. It can work and is definitely better than the Pokemon in C rank, but I tend to not run it very often.

Edit: So apparently I'm blind and Poliwrath already is in B- lol.

Rise to C
Everything Volk said, it's reliable, it's consistent, it gives Articuno migraines, it's immune to freeze, has good bulk, and hits hard with Blizzard,. It's not a solid UU member but it's definitely usable and a rise to C would reflect this.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Rise to B
Over these past few weeks, I have gained more respect for Omastar. The benefits it brings when dealing with Normal-type attackers such as Kangaskhan and Persian are noteworthy, and the freedom to play much more aggressively when facing Dragonite, Dodrio, and Articuno is definitely a valuable trait to have. It's not as good as Tangela in my opinion but I think it's better than the Electrics from my experience.

To add onto this, I greatly value Omastar's contributions to PP stalling Wrap, which in tandem with Haunter makes it very effective. This trait seems to only be growing in value. B seems to be the right place for it.

 

[Volk]

Just posting to express my opinion on Shellnuts's series of nominations and some general opinions on the current state of B Rank.


Nominations:

Articuno to A-
Still in favor of this. B Rank has a lot of Pokemon ranging from decent to borderline trash, so Articuno really doesn't belong there.

Electabuzz to B/B-
Raichu to B-
I've put quite a lot of time and effort into trying to get these two to work. They aren't terrible, but they really aren't great either. Both are relatively outclassed and rather difficult to build with. My biggest issue with them is that their stats just don't stand up to the rest of UU. UU is still a strong tier with some very large base stat totals. These two have grossly underwhelming totals and poor distributions so they are basically surviving on being Electric-type Pokemon and that's it. Electric is a good type, but it isn't nearly as good as say Psychic, so it doesn't magically make either Pokemon amazing or anything. Both should definitely go down to B. I still have some more testing to do, especially with Raichu (I'm messing with Agility sets nowadays), so I'm not positive that they need to go down to B-. However, I wouldn't be opposed if either or both fell to B-.

Tangela to B
Man, it is bad news for the Electrics when there is a genuine conversation to be had concerning if Tangela is better than them. Oh how far we've come. Anyway, B still seems a little high for a Pokemon that is almost purely utility. I don't think a B ranking is out of consideration, but I think B- might be a better home for now. We'll have to see though, B is still a strong possibility.

Omastar to B
I strongly agree with this. Omastar still has a very strong competitor in Vaporeon, but there are enough cases where using Omastar can be justified. Vaporeon will be your go-to bulky Water in most cases, but a handful of teams really do call for Omastar. It is good enough in these cases to merit a spot in B.

Golem to B/B-
I hate to admit it, but yeah, Golem still probably belongs in B-. It is really difficult to build around and fit on teams, it needs a lot of support, and it just really isn't built for the hostile environment of UU. At this point, it is still way too strong to be considered C or anything, but Golem really isn't looking good. Aside from maybe Poliwrath, I think this Pokemon might be the worst one in the tier.

Poliwrath to B-
Speaking of Poliwrath... I have no comment on this nomination because Poliwrath is already in B- (heh). This is exactly where Poliwrath belongs.

Dewgong to C
I'm still in support of this. Dewgong is really not that bad and can give some of the lesser B Ranks a run for their money. Try it.


B Rank Status:

This whole Rank is pretty messy right now because I think it encompasses a very wide variety of Pokemon. I'm not really sure how to address this, so I'll just flesh out a general ranking of the B Rank Pokemon as I see them. Keep in mind while I do this a few potential changes we could make. These include adding additional subranks, cutting subranks, shifting chunks of B Rank into A Rank, or splitting B Rank into two Ranks, B Rank (plus maybe a few lower A Ranks) and a new C Rank (which may or may not include current C Ranks).

Anyway, a ranking:

Too Good for B:
Articuno

Actually Good:
Haunter, Dodrio, Omastar

Mediocre:
Tangela, Electabuzz, Raichu, Golem, Poliwrath

I'm not sure if these opinions are universal, but they seem realistic to me. Given the meta today, it seems kind of bizarre to put monsters like Dodrio next to Pokemon like Raichu and Golem, for which the term "niche" is the nicest word I know to describe them. I don't know what I would do to fix this, because I'll admit that Dodrio and Haunter also look really weird next to Gyarados and Kangaskhan as well, but I feel something should be done. B Rank is way too inclusive and disordered right now.

If we are keeping the 3 Subrank structure, I think this is probably the best bet:
B+ Dodrio, Haunter,
B Omastar,
B- Tangela, Electabuzz, Raichu, Golem, Poliwrath
(Tangela and Electabuzz could maybe snag spots in B, but I probably wouldn't do that.)
It's definitely a bit bottom heavy, but I think this is genuinely the state of the meta. No reason to "even out" a rank if that's not how the tier works.

 

[Khaetis]

I am testing golduck at the moment but without success,
Does anyone have any ideas for making this guy work(teambulder)? Guess it's crippled or killed the kraken otherwise it's no use.

 

[Volk]

Admittedly I am not the most seasoned Golduck player out there, but I have experimented with it a little bit. Put simply, this not a Pokemon that is really worth using. It's not the worst thing in the world nor is it an active detriment to a team, but it is seldom if ever the best choice to add to a team. As a bulky water, you have multiple superior options. Vaporeon is vastly superior as a defensive Pokemon, as are some more niche picks like Omastar and even Dewgong. Heck, Blastoise might be better as a defensive Water-type. Now granted, Golduck's selling point is not being a wall, but being an Amnesia user. Amnesia, and really boosting in general, is very tricky in UU. Your opportunities are pretty few and very easily punished in this bulky, Wrap-heavy tier. Golduck struggles to set up against most of the tier, and when it can, Tentacruel can come in pretty freely and Wrap away if you use Amnesia immediately.
The biggest issue with Golduck is that it doesn't have access to reliable status. The reason why Tangela can kind of get away with a Growth set is that Pokemon like Tentacruel don't want to risk switching into a Stun Spore. Golduck has Body Slam for status and that's it. Not only is this not really reliable, it isn't super helpful even if you do manage to get paralysis off on the switch. Sure, it's certainly good to get paralysis, but the Tentacruel can still pretty easily just stay in and use Rest, as Golduck doesn't really scare Tentacruel until it has boosted a fair bit. And revenge killing Golduck is doable, as there are plenty of strong and fast options to put down a weakened Golduck. And remember, this hypothetical situation only occurs if you are able to get Golduck in and convince your opponent to switch out, which is easier said than done.
So ultimately, Golduck isn't horrible and you can realistically win matches with it. The main issue is that in more games than not, it will be a poor man's Vaporeon, as it is a much less versatile defensive Pokemon. There are a few games where Golduck can outperform Vaporeon, but you need a good matchup or a good amount of luck. It is not unusable, but I really wouldn't recommend it.
Also, there is always Poliwrath. Poliwrath usually won't be using Amnesia, but tends to be a better user of the move thanks to its access to Hypnosis. The Fighting-type is a bit of a hinderance and Poliwrath fails to outpace Dragonite and Gyarados, but Hypnosis is pretty useful. Poliwrath also has a bit of an element of surprise to it. When you see a Golduck, you know it's going to try to use Amnesia. Poliwrath can hit you with Surf, Submission, Earthquake, Body Slam, Blizzard, Hypnosis, or start boosting with Amnesia. Again though, Amnesia is just not an amazing strategy. If boosting is your goal, go for Agility.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Now granted, Golduck's selling point is not being a wall, but being an Amnesia user. Amnesia, and really boosting in general, is very tricky in UU. Your opportunities are pretty few and very easily punished in this bulky, Wrap-heavy tier. Golduck struggles to set up against most of the tier, and when it can, Tentacruel can come in pretty freely and Wrap away if you use Amnesia immediately.

I want to emphasize how important this is.

In UU, Tentacruel's Speed dictates if you're going to control the game or not. If you're going to try and boost and they predict it by bringing Tentacruel in, you're likely being forced out by Wrap so to not get put into Dugtrio range, as well as the fact you can't break it. This can be to punish their switch or PP stall too, but the fact of the matter is you're losing that boost thereafter. Ergo, you've now wasted an Amnesia - a turn - and gave the opponent momentum. Congratulations, you're now one step closer to being sent to the Shadow Realm by Dugtrio's grasping hands, bursting from the underworld to tear it apart. Bit morbid? That's because it is.

A thing that isn't often considered is the reward you get for boosting with Golduck in UU specifically. To be blunt, it just kinda sucks? The reason you use Poliwhirl - which is very much on the outer reaches of viability in the first place, for the same reason as Golduck - is because it has Psychic and Hypnosis. I want to put emphasis on Psychic, because not only does it hit Tentacruel hard, but it's unresisted. Golduck is resisted by every single defensive Water-type that sees play except Omastar, which is hit neutrally by Surf. Many teams, including that amazing one EB0LA made, use multiple Water-types to stop Tentacruel, which by extension stop Golduck. The best Golduck has in terms of Psychic coverage is Confusion, which isn't exactly great. Golduck has to boost to force its way through these behemoths but it just won't work.

 

[Plague von Karma]

So I've got a pretty big nomination here.


Hypno to S+, or Tentacruel to S
S would make the most sense imo, but you do you. The rank itself isn't completely relevant, so long as Hypno and Tentacruel stand as equals. You're using them both on every team, so I don't see why they're not together, but let's get into it.

Let me make one thing clear: there is not one Pokemon in UU that profits more from Tentacruel's presence than Hypno. Absolutely none. No, not even Dugtrio, though that thing is a monster in and of itself. You could say that this means the rank difference is justified, but I dispute this considering what Hypno actually does.

Hypno is a defensive behemoth in RBY UU to a really scary degree. It's one of the more consistent sleepers in a similar way to Chansey, considering its bulk gives it a ridiculous amount of free turns, and it can usually sneak paralysis in after (or 50/50 with Psychic pressure). We all know this.

Here's the thing. Tentacruel - and to a lesser extent Dragonite - enable Hypno to do much more. If Hypno gets in on something for free, or through an opposing Wrap, the mileage it gets means there's a turn of guaranteed progress. It's going to paralyzed something or pressure with Psychic, guaranteed. There are very few Pokemon that can duel it 1-on-1. Wrestling down Hypno requires a combined effort from multiple Pokemon, desperately trying to outdamage it through Rest and often praying full paralysis allows it. It has no weaknesses and the bulk to pull it off. It doesn't help that Rest turns are burned by Wrap.

Hell, if you try to use Kadabra while Hypno is active, forget about it. Hypno comes in, forces you out by threat of paralysis because you need the Speed for Tentacruel, but then you realize "Wait shit I need to kill that yellow bastard first". Now you're in a conundrum where you need to make progress on both of them to get a crack at the team. How do you do that with Kadabra? Well, you could hit Hypno as it comes in, but what's stopping that? The free switch from Wrap, and when it Rests, you trying to get positional advantage with Tentacruel, because your own Tentacruel is helping it wake up while it takes less chip. Now Hypno wakes up relatively healthy and this cycle repeats for the entire game. And this is without even looking at how hard its Psychics hit. As I said before, Hypno profits hard.

Now you may say that this sounds more like a case for Tentacruel. It isn't: both of these Pokemon form the fabric of the metagame, and to say there's basically a "HypnoCruel Clause" mandating their usage would essentially be accurate.

Hypno, just as much as Tentacruel, dictates the pace of the game. Tentacruel gains momentum quickly with Wrap, Hypno does the equivalent with defensive play. It just dominates the midgame to such a frightening extent. If you've KOed something using a Special Attacker, Hypno is striding in with that exaggerated swagger - for free - to immediately provide momentum with that pressure. You're not killing this thing even at like...60% without prediction, a crit or timely paralysis, and it's going to get that free turn. And remember, it can come in on a majority of the metagame to go about its daily business.

I should mention that Hypno is probably one of the best Pokemon to take paralysis with, mainly because it is so effortless to find Rest opportunities with it, and waking it up in this metagame, as established, isn't hard. This thing, and Dugtrio, form a great core to block further paralysis, and what do they core with? Tentacruel, it's coming back to that again.

The role compression Hypno provides is essential as well: it is, long and far, the biggest defensive pillar of the tier. In addition, it absorbs paralysis, provides sleep and paralysis, and possesses immensely strong neutral coverage. The only other Pokemon that do this well are Tangela Venomoth, which are relatively niche picks that just don't hold a candle to Hypno. I'd argue fishing for Hypnosis through paralysis is worth it considering it gets so many free turns and the teamslot is effectively costless.

Hypno is among the best leads to fight Tentacruel with as well. It doesn't mind the Lead Wrap too much, and if it misses, Hypno has a fair shot of paralyzing or sleeping Tentacruel out the gate...let's be real, you clicked Hypnosis 12 hours before that ladder game started. Only Kadabra works remotely as effectively, and guess what Pokemon invalidates Kadabra until said Pokemon is dead? Hypno.

I'm sure others may echo my sentiment considering the conversations I've had, but let's see what they have to say. I've probably missed some things out and/or put too much emphasis on Tentacruel rather than Hypno itself. Regardless, I believe they should be together on this VR.

TL;DR You use Tentacruel and Hypno on every team, you're debilitating yourself without it due to the strength of the two of them, thus they should be together on the VR.

 

[Volk]

On the subject of nominations:

-> Shared S
This is a pretty interesting nomination. I think Hypno is decisively "worse" than Tentacruel. And I think some of the nomination is a tad exaggerated, namely that (1) Hypno benefits from Wrap more than any other Pokemon (I think Dugtrio benefits a little more) and (2) Hypno invalidates Kadabra so long as it is alive (I think it's better to say the two mutually check each other, and in some cases, Kadabra has the upper hand in the encounter).
That being said, the two Pokemon have essentially "maxed out" in terms of viability. I think usage is a pretty good predictor of viability, but that theory kind of runs into trouble at the upper bound. In other words, if two Pokemon have basically 100% usage, can you really meaningfully discriminate them? You can make the argument that one is better than the other, but does it really matter if both Pokemon are equally prominent? These questions are only kind of rhetorical, as they have subjective answers. Nonetheless, I think they point in the direction of Hypno and Tentacruel being treated as equals. For now, I firmly believe Tentacruel is superior to Hypno, but the distinction is basically arbitrary. I am in favor of this nomination; Tentacruel and Hypno should share S. At the very least, it tidies up the ranks a little.


Now that we discussed the two best Pokemon in the tier, let's discuss some bad ones! So the RBY Lower Tiers Discord (link in OP by the way) has been on the hunt for any Pokemon we may have missed in designing this tier. Unearthing hidden gems, if you will. I want to start with the two that have been getting the most attention.

-> D (I guess? I don't really have a horse in this race.)
I personally am not overly impressed by either of these two, but they have some appeal on paper at least. The main draw with both of them is their speed stats, as both happen outpace Dugtrio. Both are severely handicapped by genuinely awful movepools (Electrode is close to forced to Explode on Dugtrio), but they are some of the most potentially potent revenge killers. Contrary to my initial reaction, I'd say Aerodactyl is probably the better of the two. Electrode tends to find itself pinned in situations where it can't really do anything simply because it is neither strong enough to revenge kill consistently nor bulky enough to switch in. Aerodactyl at least has a typing that allows it to sneak into battle here and there. I'm not totally convinced that either of these Pokemon deserves to be ranked, but I wanted to at least in some way chronicle the discussions that have been happening over Discord. If we end up voting or something to settle the rankings, these two should at least be on the slate.


I also put together a list of other currently unranked Pokemon that could potentially be useful. There hasn't been much testing or even theorizing with these Pokemon, but they all seem at least "usable." If you have used any of these Pokemon, speak up and make it clear if they are any good (or not good). If you haven't used any of these Pokemon, consider trying them if you're bored. The list is alphabetized.

• Blastoise
• Charizard
• Exeggcute
• Kabutops
• Kingler
• Mr. Mime
• Nidoking
• Nidoqueen
• Ninetales
• Rapidash
• Sandslash
• Staryu

I don't really have much hope for any particular Pokemon on this list, but I could see one or two of them finding a home in C or D Rank.


So, that's about it for now. I don't really have any preference for any other nominations, aside from those that have already been made (and I have commented on accordingly). If you have any nominations or want to try any new Pokemon, now is the time as the ladder will be closing soon and I assume we will be putting the latest VR together soon and I suspect it will be set in stone for some time. Cheers!

 

[Plague von Karma]

UR -> D Rank | Support

Aerodactyl is a surprisingly good Pokemon if used alongside an Electric-type like Electabuzz. It's faster than Dugtrio and hits surprisingly hard (DEdge 2HKO Kadabra among other bits is great w/speed), while surviving pretty much anything thrown at it. Rock/Flying is an incredible typing: absorbs Hyper Beam and Explosion while allowing it to switch in on Earthquake for free. This lets it deal with Kangaskhan very well, surviving its physical coverage just fine while only being 3HKOed by its special coverage. Can also double switch to fish for Counter or use Fire Blast to fish for burns and Haunter switches. The typing alone gives it a ridiculous amount of utility, but considering it's also faster than Tentacruel, there's a lot more here than meets the eye overall. You can even run a Reflect+Rest set to stonewall physical attackers more if you really want to, it's not bad at all. Considering Moltres is sitting on its fat arse in D Rank doing nowt, I think these qualities make Aerodactyl a perfectly fine Pokemon to place there.

Here's an AeroBuzz team I built with EB0LA, and a replay he did with his own spin on it.

Here's a replay showing how Aerodactyl limits Dodrio's progress nicely as well.

 

[Sevi 7]

I didn't do a complete indepth use of every mon to get a good idea of where everything should fit on the VR, but I got most of them, and I might take a break from mons, so I'll post this list now.

S
These are the best mons in the tier. They’re mandatory and do more for a team than anything else.

Tentacruel
No explanation needed.

Hypno
I’m going to be controversial and put Hypno and Tentacruel into the same subrank. I think Hypno is inferior to Tent and that there is a margin between them, but not enough to put Tent into a new sub rank than Hypno. Hypno provides invaluable defensive help and helps check monsters like Dugtrio and Kangaskhan. Having a healthy Hypno in the back, always means that you have a defensive pivot and can threaten whatever, with the exception of a sleeper, opposing Hypno and Kadabra. Hypno provides invaluable positioning and is beaten only by Tent, because of Wrap. I can see an argument for Tent to S+, because Tent’s speed does stop some mons from being viable, but the more I play, the less I see that as a strong enough argument.

A+
These are the other best mons in the tier that are worse enough to be a rank below S. They’re not as mandatory as the S ranks, but they certainly are close and every team needs to account for them.

Kadabra
I think Kadabra is the third best mon in the tier. It’s got a lot of offensive power and utility with T Wave, but it also has a lot of defensive utility by walling Hypno and other Kadabra. Taking a paralysis and being able to sit on Hypno, is huge. With Tent and Hypno healthy and Kadabra paralyzed or poisoned, you have a solid defensive core that can really form the backbone for Dragonite balanced teams.

Dugtrio
Despite Dugtrio being the best late game sweeper in the game and one of the best mid-game offensive threats, I’m putting right behind Kadabra, because of Dug’s lack of bulk and diversity compared to Kadabra.

Dragonite
Dragonite barely finishes off the A+ rank thanks to AgiliWrap. Without Wrap or Agility, Dragonite can still be a fearsome foe to face. However, AgiliWrap puts it over the top, as it’s a mon that can just win games after coming in against a sleeping mon.

A
These are really strong mons, some of the best in the tier, but don’t live up to the strength of the A+ due to some weakness. They’re not staples like the ranks above, but are really close. You don’t have to account for them as much as the above mons, but they’re something to keep in mind.

Kangaskhan
Kang is a monster and is the best wall breaker in the game. I’m putting it in A, instead of A+, because it lacks Special, and can’t deal with Wrap well. I can see an argument for A+, but I’m putting it at the top of A, personally.

Persian
The second best fast physical attacker. Slash and H Beam do a ton of damage and TBolt and BB are actually good support. Having to give up a slot for Toxic does hurt it, but not too much. Persian can sweep in the late game, support in the mid game and even can be scary in the early game. Definitely one of the best mons in the game.

Gyarados
Gyarados is arguably the best tank, or at least on of the best tanks. It’s got good defense, a good typing, good stats and a good movepool. The weakness to TBolt sucks and being slower than Kang do really stop it from being a total monster, but Gyara definitely falls just a little shy of some other mons, putting it at the bottom of A.

A-
Not quite as good as the other A ranks due to a lack of a couple of things, these mons are still solid and great additions to the tier. These mons are definitely great and don’t rely on some sort of niche, but just can’t be strong enough to kick it with the other A mons.

Vaporeon
A great defensive pivot and working as a “second tent” (at least defensively), Vaporeon is a great mon. It’s low speed and reliance on B Slam to hurt Tent does get in the way, but Vap is definitely a top mon in UU and is a great choice for balanced teams who are worried about Blizzard.

Articuno
Great Special and STAB Blizzard are a great combo. Articuno is a powerful mon that can set-up Agility and wreck in the late-game. This is a mon that I wish I had more experience with, but I have enough playing with and against it to say that it belongs in the A ranks. However, it’s reliance on Blizzard and DE for attacks, does mean that it can’t get over bulky waters without some luck and is just a little too weak to join the upper subranks of A. I’d say it’s the worst of the A mons, but still an A mon nevertheless.

B+
EB0LA said that all you need are A rank mons. You don’t need anything else to win. I don’t disagree with that per say, but I do think that B+ mons are ones that could win you a game just as well, but may be a little more specialized. Due to weaknesses, they’re not quite as universal as the A rank mons, but B+ are still fearsome and game winning mons that are basically psuedo-A ranked mons.

Dodrio
This is the most fearsome sweeper if left unchecked. Drill Peck + Hyper Beam can sweep teams on it’s own. Agility means that it doesn’t get outsped and can shake of paralysis. The only things stopping it are Rock-types and fragility. Without a Rock-type, I think a Dodrio going on a crit crusade is much scarier than Dug, imo. Dodrio is probably the most scary mon against an unprepared or poorly played team.

Tangela
I remember a year or two ago, I was suggesting we put Tangela from D to C on the VR, and now here I am suggesting it up to B+, only behind Dodrio. This little plant has certainly grown on me. Being the most definitive counter to Dugtrio and Electrics, while also sporting dual powder, growth and bind, Tangela really shines as a way to balance off offense, who otherwise might be weak to those two mons. I actually find that Tangela has enough to really hold it’s own on a team and not just feel like a glue or defensive pivot.

Electabuzz
I’m a little confused on why some other players are talking down on Buzz so much. STAB Thunderbolt is great and that Speed Tier is amazing. T Wave gives it utility and really Body Slam, Psychic, and S Toss prevent Buzz from being useless against anything. Albeit you are relying on 30% secondary effects, but it’s not as bad as what people say, at least in my opinion. Buzz can replace Kadabra with success and can function as a lead and a mid/late-game mon. I don’t see how Buzz can’t get some serious credit for things.

B
The B ranks are good mons that serve a purpose that goes beyond gimmicky or niche, but still aren’t fitable on a lot of teams due to one reason or another. They’re generally for more specialized strategies and don’t compliment normal strats that A rank mons generally prefer. However, they’re still good and can hold their own.

Haunter
This was my favorite 6th mon at one point, taking on the ability to check Normals while also being a pseudo-electric-type and putting everything to sleep with Hypnosis. However, it’s Psychic and Ground-type weakness and weakness to paralysis and crits have made it harder and harder to use. Now I have not used Haunter as much as I would like to, and it’s on my list of mons that I would like to test more, but I have played it some, and those games really made me think less of Haunter, and putting at the top of the B subrank.

Poliwrath
I didn’t touch Poli for a while and it dropped to B- on my personal VR. However, after playing it some, I’ve found that it’s a lot better than I remember it being. Obviously it can outspeed Hypno and use Hypnosis first. Really it finds its place as it works as a Dug check, that’s also bulky enough to take Wrap. And it’s typing let’s it take it on Surf and Blizzards. It’s also got great physical defensive bulk and can take hits from any physical attacker except Dodrio. It does have a weakness to Psychic and Thunderbolt and relies on Rest for recovery, if it uses recovery at all. It also has ok attacking, but may not take advantage of it’s STAB. But it gets itself a place in the meta, and Poli needs to be respected imo.

Omastar
Omastar is one Pokemon that I haven’t used very much. I almost always go for Vap, because Rock-typing isn’t something I usually need. Omastar not checking Dug also means that I even use Poli before it. It’s ability to wall Articuno and wraps cannot be denied though. I’m not sure if it should go before or after Poli. I’m putting it after, because Poli gets Hypnosis, a better movepool and can check Dug, but I can see an argument for both sides, and would be ok putting Oma before Poli.

B-
These are the niche mons that barely fit into UU. They’re good enough to be in the tier and have their own defined niche, but it’s hard to want that niche or to find a reason to use it.

Raichu
Some of you are talking about moving Raichu to NU, and I don’t know why. Agility with BoltSurf coverage makes Raichu a good sweeper. T Wave gives it utility throughout the whole game, but really Thunderbolt + Surf is great, as long as you don’t run into Tangela. Raichu is the ultimate anti-Rock-type, which makes it great with Dodrio, but also Nite and even Articuno. Raichu is a lot more niche than Buzz, but I never think of Raichu as a lesser mon. It can still scare, weaken and even sweep a team. If nothing else it speed-ties Tent and hits things hard. I think suggesting it comes down to NU is a huge disregard to its abilities.

Golem
Honestly, this is one of the mons I wanted to test, but never got the chance. I’m going to keep it in B-, but honestly I could see the argument for it going lower and thus dropping to NU. I really think that needs to be done with testing though, and since I don’t see people use it, I don’t think we should just theorymon it down. Otherwise we end up with another Tangela situation, where after finding its place, most players are good with it being UU.

C+
Nearly as good as the B mons, C+ is just a chip below the rest and ends up being not good enough for proper UU. Should definitely be feared as much as proper UU mons though.

Venusaur
Razor Leaf is amazing and hits better than Thunderbolt, which makes Venusaur great for offensive teams. It has a strong niche in the meta, being able to sleep Hypno or Kadabra and straight up kill Dugtrio, which are usually the electric-type checks/counters. This is one I’ve really only played against, so I might be overestimating it, but in the matches I played against it, it did really well.

C
This rank is more niche, but still holds a viable strength that can be used well in a serious game. They’re not quite as good for proper UU, but they’re definitely good mons with solid niches.

Dewgong
Dewgong is a lot like Omastar. The difference is Omastars better anti-wrapping utility and Rock-typing help it out more than STAB Blizzard. Dewgong is definitely a good mon that should not be underestimated, but it’s still not good enough for proper UU.

Raticate
This is a mon that I haven’t used in a long time. Super Fang and B Slam paralysis immunity are really good for offensive teams who want to break bulky mons like Kang and Vap. Sometimes a single Super Fang is enough to open the floodgates. But Raticate is really fragile and has a lot of competition for a slot. I wish I could use this mon some more, because it’s really cool, but it’s just another one that I haven’t gotten around to.

D*
I do not have enough experience with these mons to properly say if they should go into a rank or not. I want to make it clear that just because a mon can win you a game, and no other mon works in that strat, I don’t thnk that’s enough for it to come to D. If something can be used to win games, I would put it into a theoretical E rank -full of mons that can help win games. In order to be D Rank and show up on the VR, the mon would have to be good enough to bring to a serious game and not be a pick and pray choice. Unconventional and daring, but not just hoping your strat works.
* because all these mons I haven’t used enough to say if they belong or not.

Venomoth
I have only been on the receiving end of Veno, but it can do something and shouldn’t be totally underestimated. Psychic, Dual Powder is pretty decent and can do something to a team. This is a cool mon at the bottom of the barrel, that might just be good enough to belong here.

Aerodactyl
So I was told that Aero was a decent Dug niche and spent many games trying to see if that was true (It wasn’t; it’s a poor dug check); however, EB0LA has been having some success with Aero when used with Buzz. I haven’t really gotten a chance to test out this idea But I do see EB0LA and plague like it. I do have to wonder if Aero is really doing something that something else can’t do better. For me personally, the difference between a rankable D and an unrankable E, is that D Ranks are doing something that truly feels like a niche you could bring to a serious game and not feel weakened at all going in. I haven’t seen enough evidence one way or the other to really say how I feel about Aero being D or E, but it’s where my mind is at rn.

Dragonair
Played a little bit with this. I’m not confident enough to say if it should be here, but I’ll at least humor the idea. It’s a support mon that isn’t going to uproot games like NIte, but it can be annoying and potentially dangerous, especially with the right amount of luck.

UR
Honestly, I haven’t touched these mons recently, but they’re not good enough for a proper VR ranking. I could see it for E Rank, but we don’t go that low on here for good reason.

Pinisr
Can’t really say much about this since I don’t see it or play it, I think it’s UR until it can prove itself though

Moltres
I haven’t seen this thing in a long time. It might be viable, especially on something like Toxic Wrap, but it’s just not explored enough to say one way or another imo.

Golduck
I haven’t seen this do enough to consider it rankable up to D Rank. Haven’t really touched it or played against it though.

Clefable
Haven’t touched Clef in a while, but based on previous experience and playing against it, I’d put it into the E Rank (so ur). Might need more testing and playing though. It has something, but not quite enough for me to rank it.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Aerodactyl
So I was told that Aero was a decent Dug niche and spent many games trying to see if that was true (It wasn’t; it’s a poor dug check); however, EB0LA has been having some success with Aero when used with Buzz. I haven’t really gotten a chance to test out this idea But I do see EB0LA and plague like it. I do have to wonder if Aero is really doing something that something else can’t do better. For me personally, the difference between a rankable D and an unrankable E, is that D Ranks are doing something that truly feels like a niche you could bring to a serious game and not feel weakened at all going in. I haven’t seen enough evidence one way or the other to really say how I feel about Aero being D or E, but it’s where my mind is at rn.

Aerodactyl works as a Dugtrio check because it's faster than it and DEdge -> HB is a guaranteed 2HKO. As a result, it's forced out from then-on and is chipped into your own Dugtrio's Earthquake range. It takes one less Rock Slide than Gyarados and Dragonite, but neither is faster than Dugtrio, which matters so, so much more than you may think. Furthermore, it KOs Kadabra from ~88% with Hyper Beam which is flat out absurd considering the Speed. I went pretty in-depth on what else it can do here just now, for what it's worth. It's absolutely a D Rank.

--


D Rank -> UR | Neutral

Pinisr
Can’t really say much about this since I don’t see it or play it, I think it’s UR until it can prove itself though

I'm not outright against unranking it, but I really dislike the use of anecdotal evidence as the basis for the entire argument. It proved itself enough to get ranked, so the responsibility is on you to give constructive points against it. I'll tack on my thoughts, but I'm neutral, personally.

Pinsir's niche is being an Earthquake resist that has a death ray in +2 Hyper Beam, which can OHKO Hypno if it's taken any amount of damage, for scale. It's one of the better D Ranks in that it can clean house the second an opposing team is paralyzed while serving as an Earthquake resist for dealing with Dugtrio. Access to Bind makes it fit seamlessly into the Tentacruel + Dugtrio core that's popular in the meta as well, giving it a lot of opportunities to pivot around and increase a team's momentum until it can smash through in the end-game. It can speed tie Articuno which is cool too, I guess...not that it matters much. I have a WIP analysis if you wanna view that.

The main issues holding it back are as follows;

• That speed tier is really awkward...it can't boost, is slower than Tentacruel...eh.
• It has to find a turn to set up to pose a threat, though it can run Slash to alleviate this (which I encourage)
• It can't touch Haunter without Seismic Toss, which sucks real bad. Like Persian, Pinsir can't make progress itself until it's gone.
• Has to pick between Bind, Slash, Submission or Body Slam for the 3rd and 4th slots, which can change its matchups pretty significantly.
• Paralysis completely fucks it up due to what it wants to do: mow down a paralyzed team.

Which can definitely be a case for removing it.

 

[EB0LA]

VR Updates:

Tentacruel S+ -> S

Articuno B+ -> A-

Dodrio B -> B+

Omastar B- -> B

Tangela C -> B

Raichu B+ -> B-

Venusaur C -> C+

Dewgong D -> C

Aerodactyl UR -> C

Dragonair UR -> D

Electrode UR -> D

Golem B -> UR

Golduck D -> UR

Moltres D -> UR

 

[Plague von Karma]

Golem B -> UR

Since I know there'll be questions from people not in the loop...

Golem sucks. Real, real bad. This metagame was completely inhospitable to it; Tentacruel's chokehold over the metagame is so tight that it rarely finds opportunities to do anything. Not to mention the other waters - many teams have 2 or 3 - and everything outspeeds it. Look at that VR and tell me a Pokemon Golem checks on that list without paralysis. Having issues? Not a shocker. Golem mandates extensive paralysis support which while possible to pull off, is nowhere near as easy as in RBY OU. Dugtrio has been considered the UU's resident Ground-type to the point that the most common win con is chipping things into Earthquake range for it. We've tried so hard to make viable teams featuring Golem but it can't function on its own at all; hell, Electabuzz, the best Electric, has been dropping a good bit in viability for a hot minute. Even that purpose just...isn't there. There's no niche.

"But Plague, what about those Normal-types?! Surely Golem helps against them!"

What about those Normal-types...frankly, all of them take heavy damage from special attacks already, and Haunter is often what you go to for a "resist" if you need it. Not some big lug that takes heaps from Persian's BubbleBeam and Kangaskhan's Blizzard, or Surf if Kangaskhan really wants to see this poor bastard suffer. Even then, Omastar is much more viable for the fact it doesn't fold to a stray Water-type move or get walled by Tangela. Can Golem do the role? Absolutely. Is it the best? No, the viability of Normal resists drops off a cliff after Haunter and Omastar. Even Explosion isn't too reliable considering Wrap is going to delay it from going off.

It's a crying shame considering its legacy, but Golem just isn't worth it here. I can see it being an incredible boon to the Fire-infested NU though.

 

[Volk]

Alright, a nice revamped Viability Rankings is a great way to start off a new year. I'm posting just to offer my two cents on all of the recent changes.

Right now, S Rank, A Rank, and B Rank are all pretty much perfect. I don't have any qualms with any Pokemon's position at this time and the whole set matches my personal VR almost perfectly. I have no proposals to make here. So let's instead focus on the mediocre Pokemon.

As for C Rank, I'm glad Venusaur received its own sub-rank. This Pokemon is really quite good in my opinion and serves as a good borderline between the solid RBY UU picks and more niche and fringe options. Quite frankly, with a few more advancements, I could even imagine this Pokemon finding a home somewhere in B Rank. It's much more consistent than most of the C Ranks and even some of the B Ranks.

Aerodactyl was an interesting, somewhat unexpected addition to C Rank. This Pokemon has a lot of issues, most notably a dismal movepool. However, it seems to be a recent graduate of the Tangela School of Effective Role Compression. This Pokemon offers you a decent Dugtrio check, a Rock-type wall, and and a >100 Speed Sweeper all rolled into one. I, and I believe many others, still have a lot more testing to do with this Pokemon and I think its viability may be subject to change. I could see this Pokemon becoming a soft B Rank staple or an unranked failed experiment in a month or two, who knows.

I'm glad to see Dewgong in C I suppose. I'll admit I may have overrated it a bit in the past, but I still think C Rank is a better home for it given the stuff in D Rank. Raticate didn't move, but still definitely strikes me as C.

Entering D Rank, I begin to raise a few more questions. First things first, Golem should be D Rank. While I definitely do acknowledge that Golem was quite the disappointment, dropping it off the VR entirely was not the appropriate thing to do. I have built quite a lot with the Pokemon, especially historically, and it is just way easier to work with than most of the other stuff we let linger in D. I think Golem stands pretty far above the likes of Clefable, Electrode, and Pinsir as of now. Golem is significantly more tested and proven than any of these three and should be ranked as such. Frankly, I don't think C Rank is entirely out of the question either. Give the poor rock some of the justice it deserves. It's not great, but it has its utility.

I'm pretty surprised that both Clefable and Pinsir survived the D Rank purge. I really would not have been bothered if either or both of these dropped off. Clefable is pretty good on paper, but really struggles to fit on any type of team or in the metagame at large. I feel like D Ranks are mainly those Pokemon you use specifically to surprise or counter-team your opponent or to fulfill one very specific niche that only a select few usable teams exhibit. Clefable just isn't really either, as it's not that threatening and doesn't have any notable matchups. Pinsir is a bit more justifiable, as it punishes off-guard opponents much more effectively, but it still lacks a real place in the meta to settle. Both these Pokemon can be contrasted with Venomoth and the new recruit Electrode, as while they are not particularly powerful, they do have clearly defined niches and can be used to make good teams. I'm not saying Clefable and Pinsir should necessarily be unranked, but it is pretty difficult to argue that they are solidly better than say Golem, or even the other new unranked Pokemon, Moltres and Golduck. This is just something to think about.

Finally, let's speak briefly of Dragonair. I hate that this Pokemon is genuinely usable in this metagame. The paperwork and theory don't really point in Dragonair's favor, but this Pokemon kind of just finds a way when thrust onto the field. While it is pretty objectively outclassed by Dragonite, this Pokemon does have a niche as either a supplement to it or, oddly enough, as a downright viscous late-game sweeper. Lacking a 4x weakness to Ice gives Dragonair more ability to consistently set up with Agility. While it lacks the sheer damage output of Dragonite, in late game scenarios, where the opponent has a mere two or three Pokemon left, Dragonair can just close games and there really isn't much that can be done about it. So yeah, this Pokemon unfortunately does merit the D Rank it received and, while I hope not to derail conversation too much, makes me increasingly sure that Agility + Partial-Trapping deserves a swift axing.

So, overall I am very happy with the changes that have been made. I just think we should really make sure we arranged C Rank and D Rank to be just the way we want them. They're pretty much the only sections left that could maybe use a few revisions. Cheers, and enjoy using Golem in NU!

edit: After thinking about it quite a bit, I am retroactively nominating Golem to C Rank. It's still a reasonably effective Pokemon and significantly better than pretty much all of the stuff in D Rank. This is not to mention that there are a few peculiar Pokemon that are lingering in C and even B Rank. For example, I still like Poliwrath, but it's pretty hard for me to say that it is way better than Golem (as well as other stuff like Venusaur). The fringes of B- could probably still use some help.