Resource RBY Simple Questions & Simple Answers Thread

If it's a true 1v1 situation, hope that your opponent prioritizes paralyzing you, but avoid using T-Wave yourself (you can use T-Wave PP while your opponent rests to avoid actually paralyzing) . If you get "lucky" you'll take a couple FPs in a cycle when it would be impossible for your opponent to - that means you're conserving PP on turns while your opponent is forced to burn PP. That can allow you to win the PP war.
 
Maybe this is a stupid question, but why is Raichu’s viability THAT bad? I mean, I’m not expecting it to be an OU threat, make no mistake. I’m just somewhat confused that an Electric type that can easily defeat one of the preferred answers to Electric Types 1 on 1, is somehow worse in OU than PORYGON, a Pokémon that, as far as I can tell, should be inferior to Chansey in every way. I guess the ability to swat Exeggutor is considered more important for OU zappers than swatting Rhydon? Or am I missing something more important?
 
Maybe this is a stupid question, but why is Raichu’s viability THAT bad? I mean, I’m not expecting it to be an OU threat, make no mistake. I’m just somewhat confused that an Electric type that can easily defeat one of the preferred answers to Electric Types 1 on 1, is somehow worse in OU than PORYGON, a Pokémon that, as far as I can tell, should be inferior to Chansey in every way. I guess the ability to swat Exeggutor is considered more important for OU zappers than swatting Rhydon? Or am I missing something more important?
Since there isn't even an analysis of Raichu OU, I'll stick to the most obvious aspects of its form in order to answer your question. Raichu is an Electric-type Pokémon with a base 100 Speed and a base 90 Special. It also has access to offensive moves like STAB Thunderbolt and Surf and utility moves like Thunder Wave or Agility. As such, Raichu is a fast Pokemon that matches Zapdos in speed and can threaten Water-types and Rhydon alike. The problem with Raichu is that unlike Zapdos, it can be easily walled by some extremely common Pokémon in OU like Exeggutor, Chansey or Alakazam and this makes it difficult to use as a sweeper and limits it to being a simple defensive response to STAB Thunderbolt users in OU. However, in OU there are other Pokémon that can be used to counter STAB Thunderbolt users much more efficiently than Raichu, and they don't let it stand out even as a defensive response. On the other hand, Porygon has normal typing, base 40 Speed, access to Recover and Snorlax Body Slam only 3HKOes him, therefore Porygon's form makes him an efficient defensive response to Snorlax as he can switch into Snorlax Body Slam. without risk of being paralyzed and the next turn absorb damage with Recover easily. Also, Recover's 32 PP beats Body Slam's 24 PP so in most situations Porygon can force Snorlax out of the field with just Recover. This makes Porygon an outstanding performer against one of the most common and powerful offensive threats in RBY OU. Raichu, on the other hand, doesn't really excel in any role other than being an Electric-type Pokemon with the ability to OHKO Rhydon with Surf and if Raichu becomes paralyzed, Rhydon OHKOes it with Earthquake easily.

Raichu, on the other hand, doesn't really excel in any role other than being an Electric-type Pokemon with the ability to OHKO Rhydon with Surf and if Raichu becomes paralyzed, Rhydon OHKOes it with Earthquake easily.
If Paralyzed Raichu has used Agility, beat Rhydon. But Raichu still offers less than Porygon from my point of view.
 
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Since there isn't even an analysis of Raichu OU, I'll stick to the most obvious aspects of its form in order to answer your question. Raichu is an Electric-type Pokémon with a base 100 Speed and a base 90 Special. It also has access to offensive moves like STAB Thunderbolt and Surf and utility moves like Thunder Wave or Agility. As such, Raichu is a fast Pokemon that matches Zapdos in speed and can threaten Water-types and Rhydon alike. The problem with Raichu is that unlike Zapdos, it can be easily walled by some extremely common Pokémon in OU like Exeggutor, Chansey or Alakazam and this makes it difficult to use as a sweeper and limits it to being a simple defensive response to STAB Thunderbolt users in OU. However, in OU there are other Pokémon that can be used to counter STAB Thunderbolt users much more efficiently than Raichu, and they don't let it stand out even as a defensive response. On the other hand, Porygon has normal typing, base 40 Speed, access to Recover and Snorlax Body Slam only 3HKOes him, therefore Porygon's form makes him an efficient defensive response to Snorlax as he can switch into Snorlax Body Slam. without risk of being paralyzed and the next turn absorb damage with Recover easily. Also, Recover's 32 PP beats Body Slam's 24 PP so in most situations Porygon can force Snorlax out of the field with just Recover. This makes Porygon an outstanding performer against one of the most common and powerful offensive threats in RBY OU. Raichu, on the other hand, doesn't really excel in any role other than being an Electric-type Pokemon with the ability to OHKO Rhydon with Surf and if Raichu becomes paralyzed, Rhydon OHKOes it with Earthquake easily.
Alright. It still feels really weird to me, but I guess in hindsight, it is TECHNICALLY tied with Zapdos for the second slowest fully evolved electric in RBY, while offering way less bulk and power. Maybe if there was more than one or two ground types in OU, it’d have a better niche use, or if it had a bit more speed or special, or a better option to hit psychic bacon&eggs, but that’s just me waxing. I’ll admit that I’m the kind of dumbo that also kinda thought SD Zard would have a small niche in OU, so this isn’t the first time I’ve been dead wrong, and it won’t be the last.
 
For NU, were Poliwrath and Golduck ever around the same time? From what I read, it seems Golduck was banned and then Poliwrath when he dropped to NU. Will there be new testing to see if it matters if Poliwrath and Golduck (and Raichu) can be used at the same time in the sense of a healthy meta?
 

Plague von Karma

Banned deucer.
For NU, were Poliwrath and Golduck ever around the same time? From what I read, it seems Golduck was banned and then Poliwrath when he dropped to NU. Will there be new testing to see if it matters if Poliwrath and Golduck (and Raichu) can be used at the same time in the sense of a healthy meta?
In modern NU, no, Golduck got banned super early while Poliwrath dropped afterwards. In the super old UU they were together, though.

There were promises to retest Golduck (and eventually the others) down the line given this was all early days, but it just kind of didn't happen, so...
 

AM

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Resource threads/links to explain Stadium and Tradeback ? (preferably not video sorry youtubers lol)
 
In some cases, a Pokémon is purposefully set to have as low of an Attack stat as possible while keeping other stats at maximum, to reduce self-inflicted Confusion damage. This generally means an IV/DV of 1 and an Attack stat experience value of 0, with all other stats at 15/65535.

However, I don't see how it's possible to keep Attack stat experience at 0 while raising all other stats. Vitamins only take you part of the way, up to 25600, so the rest needs to be obtained from battling. The problem is, the act of battling will raise all stats, including Attack, at the same time.

From what I can tell, the way to keep Attack at its lowest is by only battling a combination of Chansey and Magikarp, which have the lowest base Attack. If you battle 247 Chansey and 704 Magikarp, you can reach 65535 in all stats (after vitamins) except Attack which reaches 8275. From the standpoint of evaluating a Pokémon for its legitimacy, 8275 seems to be the true lowest Attack stat experience, not 0, assuming you're maxing all other stats out.

This affects GSC as well, though for Pokémon that can only be trained in GSC games, the calculations are a bit different because of a slight change in Pokémon base stats.

Is there some trick to raising stat experience I am missing, or is the community collectively turning a blind eye to impossible stats when battling competitively? Given how dedicated the community is to preserving mechanic accuracy, it's strange that this is glossed over, which makes me think I'm missing something.

(Also, is 65535 really needed? Wouldn't a stat reach its max potential by 63504, and anything further is unnecessary? If that's the case, Attack stat experience could go a bit lower than 8275, assuming I'm not going crazy.)

emma edit - moved to SQSA
 
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Plague von Karma

Banned deucer.
In 2020-2021ish, Enigami realised that the Exp. All's division is actually faulty and can result in 0 Stat Exp through switching between multiple Pokemon.

Also, this is best for the simple answer simple question thread.

emma edit - moved to SQSA
 
In 2020-2021ish, Enigami realised that the Exp. All's division is actually faulty and can result in 0 Stat Exp through switching between multiple Pokemon.

Also, this is best for the simple answer simple question thread.

emma edit - moved to SQSA
This is great, thank you very much. Does Exp. All behave the same way in GSC, allowing Pokémon trained in those games to stay at 0 Attack experience and level 5 while maxing everything else?
 

Plague von Karma

Banned deucer.
This is great, thank you very much. Does Exp. All behave the same way in GSC, allowing Pokémon trained in those games to stay at 0 Attack experience and level 5 while maxing everything else?
Exp. All isn't in GSC if I recall correctly, but I think having 6 across your party against super weak wild Pokemon would still replicate the effects. We never tested GSC. It shouldn't be difficult to test, just Gameshark 6 Exp. Shares in and use your entire party against a Magikarp or something.
 
I started playing RBY OU for quite some time now, and as any Pokémon player, I read a lot of topics and people talking about differences in cartridge and PS. Some things really make me confused. At the end, I show my personal thoughts and propose some changes.


Freeze Clause and Sleep Clause

This was implemented in Pokémon Stadium, but we use them in RBY OU. We also divide the RBY scenario in "OU" and "Stadium OU", but use these rules in both. This is really strange.

Right now I'm not discussing here the importance of each competitive rule, I'm just showing how things are done to adjust what some people think is better. If we would stick to what we are really saying, "play the game as faithfully as possible to the cart", it just makes no sense since no rule of any kind exists in the cart.

Do you know what other rules didn't exist in the cart?


Desync Rule, Cleric Rule, Species Clause, HP Percentage Mod, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause and Endless Battle Clause

Ok, now we stumbled upon some really important things. These rules didn't exist but we implemented them to simply make the game playable.

The Desync Rule is absolutely essential to RBY meta. And if we would stick to "as faithfully as possible to the cart" the game would have countless matches ended without a result because Counter is a very prevalent move and can cause desyncs.

If we would stick to the cart, every match would start with Chansey paralyzed or burned to not get frozen and a lot of absurd and stupid things. That's why the Cleric Clause exists.

I read a rumor that there was a tournament in Nintendo Cup where a team consisted of 6 Chanseys, and I really think that it is perfectly possible. Not game changing or anything, but what about substituting the last Poké to another Tauros? Or Persian? Or maybe 2 Chanseys on a team can be good too. Imagine 2 Slowbros? It is definetely stupid.

Horn Drill and Double Team is where things get really childish. To use them means zero skill, despite Pokémon being a game which involves skill AND luck. These two rules nulls dumb luck and child play.

The Endless Battle Clause for me is 100% self explanatory.

But the confusion still gets further.


The HP Glitch

We corrected the game to be playable with Desync, Cleric, OHKO, Evasion Clause and more, but we can't do that to that simple mistake of programming that says "if a Pokémon received 255 or 511 damage it can't heal with any recovery move", because the cart has it.

That made possible the infamous Lv. 85 Chansey, which used 3 Seismic Toss on enemy Chansey/Slowbro to block them from using Soft-Boiled/Rest. This is hilariously stupid!

I've watched a match one time where Tauros decided the game once more, by using Hyper Beam on a Chansey and when she used Soft-Boiled it failed. Why?

Tauros Hyper Beam vs. Chansey: 442-520 (62.8 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Possible damage amounts: (442, 444, 446, 448, 450, 452, 454, 456, 458, 460, 462, 464, 466, 469, 471, 473, 475, 477, 479, 481, 483, 485, 487, 489, 491, 493, 495, 497, 499, 501, 503, 505, 507, 509, 511, 513, 515, 517, 520)

Look at 511 damage right there (I think it did 72% damage... Idk).

The game already involves luck and there's nothing we can do about it... We do everything to lessen the effects of luck (what characterizes the definition of "skill" in Pokémon), but not fixing this bug only adds more luck to the meta. Everyone complains about the luck and all that, but the meta doesn't correct this bug to "remain as close as possible to the cart"... At the same time, we implement OHKO and Evasion Clause and that's ok. :)


HP Percentage Mod and more

One thing I see as the most important thing in competitive Pokémon is the percentage. The most important turns in any match are those in which you calculate if you can do that positioning to finally use this attack that is guaranteed to KO this specific Poké. But if we played "as faithfully as possible to the cart" this would be impossible.

The only game that lets you see the opponent's HP is Stadium (and some other spin-offs), and isn't in %, is in full numbers.

This would change the meta. If it was "as faithfully as possible to the cart", any calc would not be possible because in Link Battles you only see the opponent's health bar, not number nor percentages. You know what other thing could change the meta, even the slightest?

Using moves like Wrap. In the cart, you use it and it starts attacking. If the opponent stays in, you don't know if the next turn the attack will continue. You have to click on "Battle". I don't know if the move has ended and you click on "Battle", you'll be able to choose other moves (which would show to you that the move has ended) and if you click in "Battle" and immediately the turn goes on, it would show that the move continued. If it is so, the existing mechanic in PS is perfectly done because it just saves time.

If this is not true, this would change the way Victreebel, Cloyster and others are played.

Another little detail that is non-existent in the cart that we always used is the option to cancel a move we did. Did you miss-click a move? That's it, you basically lost a turn.

The last one I'll bring is the enormous commodity of seeing opponent's moves used with PP, status, HP, and everything else with the mouse. This is something very important that doesn't exist in the cart but if it wasn't implemented, we would write it all down on paper (which I always did when I played competitively in my region years ago); with the clear exception of HP.


Conclusion

We want to replicate the cart mechanics exactly, but we don't want to replicate the cart mechanics exactly. That's the divided and mad meta that is RBY today.


My personal opinion

If you want to play with exact cart mechanics, why do you play on PS? Play in the cart. Why have all the trouble to maintain a lot of errors the devs didn't have the time and/or capacity to correct 20+ years ago in a game in which we can do it nowadays? It just boggles my mind thinking like this.

Ah, if you'd play on the cart you'd need to travel the world to play with people, right? Bring your GameBoy or GameBoy Color and Link Cable... I know. That's yet another motive for you to forget about this 20+ years old cart. We can do things better today; to cling to the cart, for me, is very, very, very absurd and illogical.

But I would agree if this "Cart Meta" existed as a separate meta, not RBY OU. I don't know about "OU" and "Stadium OU", though.

In Pokémon Stadium a LOT of errors that didn't mean to be in the cart were fixed, that's true. I never played Stadium OU, but I wouldn't mind starting to play it if RBY OU didn't exist.

I know that there are people that play this thing for ages and don't want to change, but that only says a thing about them, not me or all the players.

Now, I'm certain that Freeze Clause, Sleep Clause, Evasion Clause, OHKO Clause, Desync Clause, Cleric Clause, HP Percentage Mod and Endless Battle Clause are the rules that need to stay in order to maintain the competitiveness in the game, and increase the odds of skill impacting the game more than luck does.

We really need to discuss these things because they are fundamental to the development of the meta. First, the most important question:

Who is the person or group of people that dictates today what rules should exist in Pokémon RBY?

Because if we can't reach them to change or at least have a civilised conversation and hear their motives to maintain certain things, we could create our own meta. Which meta? That's the second important question:

Are we sticking with cart mechanics or "fixed issues OU"?


What would be fixed? Everything that was a bug that Stadium fixed. Stadium didn't fix the sleep mechanics, be careful: it just changed them. But they did fix Substitute mechanics. There is a big difference between fixing and changing; that's why we use two different words.

After answering these 2 questions, the meta would finally have SOME direction in its crazy life.

I definitely want to hear what you all think about this.

emma edit - moved to SQSA
 
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Amaranth

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Who is the person or group of people that dictates today what rules should exist in Pokémon RBY?
The community that has been playing RBY on simulators for 20+ years. Everything here is community consensus. Some things may look off to someone coming from your perspective and that's fine, but no fundamental changes to such things are going to happen any time soon.

Are we sticking with cart mechanics or "fixed issues OU"?
No fundamental changes to such things are going to happen any time soon.

Smogon rules are extremely consistent with patching as little as is needed to keep the game functional (Desync) and competitive (OHKO/Evasion), it makes one vital exception in Sleep/Freeze clause which have been there for 20+ years, and it does not go out of its way to patch hardly relevant issues like 1/256 misses and recovery fails. It uses its own UI (with %HP, integrated timer, PP trackers/displays, etc) as opposed to cart-accurate ones. All of this is extremely unlikely to change.
I'll give you the point about Wrap's implementation - it is an issue that programmers are working on fixing (or should be, at any rate).

I appreciate that Smogon customs can be offputting at the start but I promise you it's much easier for you to get over it than for us to change such longstanding habits. I really do understand where you're coming from, but these debates have no real place on these forums. If you have more questions about why we do things the way we do them, try the Simple Questions, Simple Answers thread - but know that change of the kind you propose in this post is unimaginably unlikely. Locking this thread.

emma edit - moved to SQSA
 
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Hey everyone,

As a new player to comp pokemon I want to start with RBY as it seems like a good place to start and also is nostalgic. I love love Gengar and want to first learn all the Gengar teams (fav mon in RBY). With that being said I was listening to a BKC YT video and titled, "2021 RBY: Starmie usurping Exeggutor & other changes with Troller, Amaranth and Nails." While listening to this I heard one of them mention a Gengar + Articuno + Zapdos + "3 normal mon" (I'm assuming Chansey, Snorlax and Taurus) and this team got me really excited. I assume it has some holes and may not be as consistent as other teams but want to learn how to play this team as optimal as possible. Also this team is listed on sample teams but I was hoping someone could please go into detail of how exactly this team wants to play (it's game plan),the checks and counters, the other options if any (moveset wise), what version of each mon you'd use for this team, how the team synergizes with one another and anything else important to note.

Thank you in advance for taking your time with this.
 

emma

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Hey everyone,

As a new player to comp pokemon I want to start with RBY as it seems like a good place to start and also is nostalgic. I love love Gengar and want to first learn all the Gengar teams (fav mon in RBY). With that being said I was listening to a BKC YT video and titled, "2021 RBY: Starmie usurping Exeggutor & other changes with Troller, Amaranth and Nails." While listening to this I heard one of them mention a Gengar + Articuno + Zapdos + "3 normal mon" (I'm assuming Chansey, Snorlax and Taurus) and this team got me really excited. I assume it has some holes and may not be as consistent as other teams but want to learn how to play this team as optimal as possible. Also this team is listed on sample teams but I was hoping someone could please go into detail of how exactly this team wants to play (it's game plan),the checks and counters, the other options if any (moveset wise), what version of each mon you'd use for this team, how the team synergizes with one another and anything else important to note.

Thank you in advance for taking your time with this.
Here's what Amaranth (creator of the team) said about it when he included it in a team dump after winning the 2020 RBY OU Global Championship:
Amaranth said:
Paste
Like the other Gar+Chans, but this time you're not sitting back scratching your balls for 200 turns autopiloting, you're trying to actively break with your other goons. Articuno SMACKS most Rhydon teams, Zapdos SMACKS most back Mie teams, and for teams that pack Cloy+Jolt there's TBolt Tauros teched in to eat some ass there as well. I guess this is Lapras weak but lol does that pokemon exist anymore? Counter over TWave because you'll want to boom your Gar on Chansey to open for Cuno, so a semblance of Lax match up is needed there. Your defensive Cloy check is scaring it with Gengar, exploding Gengar on the inevitable Chansey, and never allowing Cloy to hit the field again. This team realllllly hangs on getting the first sleep and snowballing with 1 for 1 trades very quickly, take your foot off the accelerator for a turn and you'll realize you don't have switchins for many situations. I love piloting this thing, big shoutout to Lapras for disappearing and allowing this to exist.
I theoried up a version with Jolteon over Zap too, think it might be better but it's not heavily tested. Match ups are pretty similar all around, Eggy + back Mie is rare nowadays so you don't need a mon in the back to beat both as much as you used to. And no Jolteon's main draw is not checking enemy Zapdos, we don't do defensive checking here, it's to outspeed Tauros while still shitting on waters. In fact, fuck it, might be better to use the old fashioned Pin Missile Jolt here even. Really untested stuff but hey, it's out there if you want to try, and the Zap version works
edit: oh yeah I noticed that my paste here has HB Zap because I was feeling quirky and epic. agility is fine, hb is a Cool Tech to snipe chanseys and zams sometimes and it comes into play a bit more often with these kinds of offenses - you don't need the agility cleaner zap as much since you also have cuno to agility clean, but yeah both moves work just fine, agility is the staple for a reason
This should be a pretty solid explanation but I'll see if he or anyone else wants to add anything! Hope this helps ^^
 
Here's what Amaranth (creator of the team) said about it when he included it in a team dump after winning the 2020 RBY OU Global Championship:

This should be a pretty solid explanation but I'll see if he or anyone else wants to add anything! Hope this helps ^^
This is nice but if anyone wants to go a bit further I'm all ears XD also the jolt option over Zap sounds interesting as well. If anyone ever got around to testing this version I'd also be curious about it as well. Thanks again!
 

Amaranth

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This is nice but if anyone wants to go a bit further I'm all ears XD also the jolt option over Zap sounds interesting as well. If anyone ever got around to testing this version I'd also be curious about it as well. Thanks again!
I explored Jolt>Zap a little bit, found it generally uninspiring. Zapdos is just a lot better in many endgames due to the bulk, Agility, and Drill Peck to break Alakazams - the Jolt versions can struggle quite a bit with Zam.

I dug up a few replays of the team in action to give you an idea of how it's usually played and what it looks like when it works:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1361640858
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-540118
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-535669
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-532880
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1207435191
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1206843606
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1202579288
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-498332

Probably easier to learn through these than with any paragraph I could write, especially if you're a beginner
 
I explored Jolt>Zap a little bit, found it generally uninspiring. Zapdos is just a lot better in many endgames due to the bulk, Agility, and Drill Peck to break Alakazams - the Jolt versions can struggle quite a bit with Zam.

I dug up a few replays of the team in action to give you an idea of how it's usually played and what it looks like when it works:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1361640858
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-540118
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-535669
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-532880
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1207435191
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1206843606
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1202579288
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-498332

Probably easier to learn through these than with any paragraph I could write, especially if you're a beginner
Thank you so much for these replays this will help out tremendously.

Amaranth do you by any chance have a replay of you opening gengar vs zam? if no what would you try to do like first 1-2 plays
 
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Amaranth

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Amaranth do you by any chance have a replay of you opening gengar vs zam? if no what would you try to do like first 1-2 plays
Immediately Chansey and Sing it, you're happy if they let it take sleep, if they switch out then ok he'll be a problem later on. You want to pressure it offensively and make sure it never really gets a chance to come in and freefire Psychics, maybe by luring and exploding it with Gengar; if he does get that chance, Chansey should generally be able to switch in, heal off a bunch, fire off a few Ice Beams, and either score a lucky freeze or get him low enough that he's forced to Recover and you can take that turn to go Snorlax. It's definitely one of the more uncomfortable match ups and needs careful and/or fortunate piloting to end well
 
Apologies, this might be the wrong place to post this (in which case please redirect me and I'll delete this post), but in Gen 1, Lapras, Slowbro and Victreebel are listed as UUBL, UUBL and UU respectively, however they are still shown as OU on this page.

emma edit - moved to SQSA
 
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Plague von Karma

Banned deucer.
Apologies, this might be the wrong place to post this (in which case please redirect me and I'll delete this post), but in Gen 1, Lapras, Slowbro and Victreebel are listed as UUBL, UUBL and UU respectively, however they are still shown as OU on this page.
The smogdex has yet to be updated with the PS side. I don't know why they're desynchronised, as it usually updates automatically.

emma edit - moved to SQSA
 
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I'm a brand new RBY player that is interested in learning the UU tier. What are effective counters against Hypno and how do you use them?
 

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