OU RBY OU Ladder / "Jank" Discussion Thread

DAE Scyther is underrated?
Probably not. It has Slash, Agility, Hyper Beam, and Slash going for it. :Beedrill:, :Farfetch’d:, and :Scyther: are the only ones that have that trait Agility + SD. It has no good STAB options. Keep in mind that SD is for Hyper Beam, not Slash. I believe that SD mons prefer to have some sort of coverage for either :Rhydon: or :Gengar: which :Scyther: does not have. Its Flying type just kinda makes it worse.

It might be somewhat usable,... I've lost to :Seaking: and random stuff before. I've only used :Scyther: like one or two times.

A better physical Agility user would be :Dodrio: because it has STAB Body Slam + Hyper Beam and Drill Peck. It still gets walled by Rock Types though.
 
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Teh

the saint
is a Pre-Contributor
AS OF YESTERDAY (I forgot to post it) I HAVE WON WITH EVERY MONOTYPE ON LADDER!!!

Normal: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1682269472-vqvvqg2h0om7hve3pom7ijycnfnspeipw
Psychic: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1686843316
Water: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1681154989
Grass: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1686674986
Electric: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1686666205
Flying: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1686179653
Fire: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-16819970
Ground: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1686175256
Poison: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1682259171
Fighting: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1686810327
Rock: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1686816079
Bug: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1686830678
Ice: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1683415527-r0kpz8rpqd4oa87pq1kscjwta36ycjvpw
Ghost: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1683402938
Dragon: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1683379753
(i tried to avoid counting games where my opponent disconnects early but this is legit impossible)

Honestly, this challenge isn't nearly as hard as it sounds on paper. I find that people on low ladder (especially in RBY) have the intelligence of a rock. I won a lot of the challenges first try, too. Maybe I just got lucky.

MONOTYPE TIER LIST

Slowbro Tier:

  • Psychic
  • Water
Very easy, can be done in 1-2 tries:
  • Normal
  • Electric
  • Flying
Made significantly easier with Wrap:
  • Grass
  • Poison
Actually Difficult, takes some dedication:
  • Ice
  • Fire
  • Ground
Agony:
  • Rock
  • Bug
  • Fighting
  • Ghost
ACTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE:
  • Dragon
Almost 4 months later, I finally got a legit win using only dragon types on ladder. :)))

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1785985296
 
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And then there's Butterfree. Butterfree is a bit of a weird one in that I don't think there's any way of justifying using it, but it at least trades with something by clicking Sleep Powder. It has no significant strengths that can elevate it over other dual powder users- I even went as far as testing String Shot in a quest to find a point of differentiation, which predictably didn't achieve anything. The best selling point it has is that it's Psychic-neutral and outspeeds most slow pokemon, though the former doesn't mean much with how awful its bulk is
Interesting fact: Butterfree is the only sleeper that can switch in completely safely on Earthquake (Though exeggutor already resists it and it's completely helpless against Tauros so this only helps with what it already outspeeds and even then not that much)

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Coming soon... but probably not to a tournament lol, Seaking may be the worst of the 5 pokemon noted in this post, still testing though
Seaking is interesting in that it has access to Agility combined with alright (not great) offensive stats. 92/80 is a passable offensive statline. There's also Seadra, who outranks it in Special and Speed but has poor attack and is less bulky (I think? I'd have to run the numbers).

Also their movepool differences literally do not matter (Seadra learns Smokescreen if you want to be a total dick but that's basically it)

EDIT: apparently their movepool differences DO matter because Seaking does not learn Hydro Pump. They're both probably gonna use Surf anyways but it's worth consideration
 
Interesting fact: Butterfree is the only sleeper that can switch in completely safely on Earthquake (Though exeggutor already resists it and it's completely helpless against Tauros so this only helps with what it already outspeeds and even then not that much)



Seaking is interesting in that it has access to Agility combined with alright (not great) offensive stats. 92/80 is a passable offensive statline. There's also Seadra, who outranks it in Special and Speed but has poor attack and is less bulky (I think? I'd have to run the numbers).

Also their movepool differences literally do not matter (Seadra learns Smokescreen if you want to be a total dick but that's basically it)

EDIT: apparently their movepool differences DO matter because Seaking does not learn Hydro Pump. They're both probably gonna use Surf anyways but it's worth consideration
Yeah none of the typing advantages for Butterfree really matter that much. Obviously Egg exists and switches into EQ way better, but even if it didn't Butterfree couldn't really switch in on EQ regardless, since anything running EQ will have powerful physical attacking tools to destroy it.

Seaking is absolutely awful and imo the worst non-Ditto pokemon in the game. I'm planning on posting more substantially once I've tested a few more shitmons, but it's hopelessly outclassed by other Water types (particularly Seadra due to Agility), as well as Articuno. It provides literally no value aside from attacking, which would be fine except it's incapable of dealing substantial damage thanks to its terrible stats and bad attacking options- no physical STAB means it can't deal much damage that way and Surf from base 80 SPC is atrocious, it really needs HPump.

For the record I think Seadra's optimal set is Agi/HPump/Surf/Blizz, but I haven't actually used it
 
Seaking is absolutely awful and imo the worst non-Ditto pokemon in the game.
That's an injustice to Seaking. It's miles better than seadra. Agility plus decent physical attack make it a threat to frail pokemon like chansey and zam - agility, double edge, Hyper Beam, surf/blizard.
 
Lead Tauros is OP:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1796073959

Beats cowardly Jynx/Gengar leads.

Lead Aerodactyl is semi-OP:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1782857107
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1787316121
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1782885725

Terrifies opponent from turn 1, the ultimate psychological weapon. Walls Lax if it doesn't have Ice Beam. Out speeds everything that matters and crits all the time.
Aerodactyl resists Normal, is immune to Ground, outspeeds Tauros and Persian, and has Fire Blast. No other Flying type, nor any other mon that learns Fire Blast, can outspeed Tauros. Aero does have a few unique and very valuable tools to deter physical attackers, especially the most prominent ones in OU. Movepool limitations aside, Aero can put in work on ladder if played to its strengths.
 
That's an injustice to Seaking. It's miles better than seadra. Agility plus decent physical attack make it a threat to frail pokemon like chansey and zam - agility, double edge, Hyper Beam, surf/blizard.
Is this theorymon or practical experience? Calling it a threat to chansey and zam is greatly exaggerating Seaking's potential. It needs max rolls to 2HKO Zam and isn't even guaranteed to 3HKO Chansey since HB caps out at 46.6%. That's incredibly mediocre given its average crit rate and inability to spread status, like they just paralyse it and wall it until it kills itself and/or FPs- hax might remedy this except Seaking's hax potential is so bad it's losing to both Chansey and Zam on that front by a large margin.

It really doesn't compensate for how badly it shits the bed vs literally everything that isn't weak to Water. At least Seadra can substantially dent whatever switches into its STAB. If it could be used as a direct response to those pokemon, that might be a different matter, but it's still easily losing those matchups and does nothing else of value- it's just too weak to threaten things unless it's given so much support that anything else could also find success
 
Ranking the fossils, I have to say Kabutops > Aerodactyl > Omastar.

Kabutops is just a solid mon. It's not amazing or anything, but it's always lurking, and when Reflect Chansey/Reflect + IB Lax rise it'll be there to exploit them. Aerodactyl having both a Normal resist and a Ground Immunity, combined with outspeeding every physical attacker in the game gives it the slightest bit of utility even in spite of its bad movepool and total reliance on crits to actually hurt things. It works alongside Rest Gengar as an Anti-Normal core that stops all common Snorlax sets, and Aero can even sort of switch in on Tauros after Gengar baits EQ. I wouldn't call it reliable but it can do stuff no other mon can. I've tried Omastar and in basically every case outside of the odd Moltres matchup I'd rather just use Cloyster or Lapras. I don't see the point of Omastar. I'd put Kabutops D tier, Aerodactyl E tier, and Omastar unranked.
 
Ranking the fossils, I have to say Kabutops > Aerodactyl > Omastar.

Kabutops is just a solid mon. It's not amazing or anything, but it's always lurking, and when Reflect Chansey/Reflect + IB Lax rise it'll be there to exploit them. Aerodactyl having both a Normal resist and a Ground Immunity, combined with outspeeding every physical attacker in the game gives it the slightest bit of utility even in spite of its bad movepool and total reliance on crits to actually hurt things. It works alongside Rest Gengar as an Anti-Normal core that stops all common Snorlax sets, and Aero can even sort of switch in on Tauros after Gengar baits EQ. I wouldn't call it reliable but it can do stuff no other mon can. I've tried Omastar and in basically every case outside of the odd Moltres matchup I'd rather just use Cloyster or Lapras. I don't see the point of Omastar. I'd put Kabutops D tier, Aerodactyl E tier, and Omastar unranked.
If we are going by the lables by the current viability rankings, I think these might be a little low.
The reason I don't personally use Omastar much is because it does not feel that interesting so I don't have much to say about it, but it's currently sitting in D rank.

Kabutops probably deserves a spot in D to C. It's more of a wall breaker than a Sweeper, it helps to deal with reflect mons with Slash (Body Slam should not be used in OU imo), and I've had it run through a team like once. If Venusaur gets to stay in D+ than so should Kabutops in my opinion.

Anyway here is the only set I currently feel Aero would run in OU:
Aerodactyl
Ability: No Ability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Serious Nature
- Double-Edge
- Fire Blast
- Sky Attack/Hyper Beam
- Rest
Hyper Beam helps to pick off mons, while Sky Attack is for dealing a bunch of damage to Snorlax. Not sure how I feel about it being outclassed by porygon as porygon just kinda sits there and then maybe paralyzes another mon after it deals with Lax. Which is sort of similar to what Aero does, except Aero goes for a crit/burn/Hyper Beam after it deals with lax. While porygon has to sit and recover against Lax, Aero can be spamming Double Edge, Fire Blast, and Sky Attack to get rid of it. Aero also can take some damage and status from other mons as Snorlax's Body slam is like a 5HKO which gives Areo time to rest. I suppose one negative about Aero is that it hates ice Lax while Porygon can handle the Ice Beam+Reflect Lax. So Aero kinda forces you to use a mon to cover its weakness if your goal is to wall out Lax with non-Lax mons. I presume the same happens with porygon and Amnesia sets. One other flaw that Aero has is that it is easy for Rhydon to switch into it, making Aero hope to crit/burn it with Fire Blast. Porygon can T-wave and Ice Beam switch-ins if it is lucky enough to get the right call. You need to keep Porygon pretty healthy, so I'm not sure how well it does when Rhydon switches in. Also, Rest may seem worse than recover, but Aero needs it to remove its inevitable paralysis and snorlax is likely to stay in and Rest as well if it has taken enough damage.

So to summarize: Aerodactyl functions similarly to porygon, its crit rate and speed are nifty, it does not have to be as healthy as porygon, but it is unable to wall ice Lax.

I think D to C is where Aerodactyl can be if Porygon is allowed to be in C.

Idk tho, I feel that E is at least better than it being ignored.
 
Are we locked to discussing SPL results? I believe that we can discuss ladder play as well no?
I personally find more enjoyment out of figuring out what different mons can be used rather than using the same select mons. If SPL is team based, I can see why players would shy away from using lower tier mons as you don't want to let your team down. But I think we are talking about OU in general.
At least for accuracy's sake, I think we can talk about the viability of lower tier mons.

Though I apologize if everyone already knows how to use the mons we are talking about.

If I were to add anything to those statistics, as heavylobster said, Alakazam having a higher win% than Exeggutor is somewhat interesting. I'm not too surprised with Jolteon dropping with Rhydon running around. I am a bit surprised that Zapdos is at 11 in both lists. I figured it would drop in favor due to Rhydon.
I think Nail's pick of Amnesia+Reflect Slowbro is interesting.

Outside of that, I don't think I have much to say, I'm not really sure what goes into decision making in a best of 3 situation.
 
theres a difference between talking about lower tiers (persian, cuno) and shitmons (aero, oma)
Kabutops isn't a shitmon, it has a very real albeit small niche. Mind you it's only really worth using when IceLax and Reflect + Ice Beam Chansey are prevalent, which is not now, but its utility is real. And I maintain that Aerodactyl isn't completely useless either, about as usable as a lot of mons listed in D or E rank.
 
Lead Flareon

KO's Jynx if Jynx sleep isn't successful (Fire Blast + Quick Attack). If it is succesful, cool they just wasted their sleep.
Threatens Alakazam and Starmie with body slam Paralysis. On first turn, your body slam basically forces them to use recover on the second turn.
Switchins won't like being burnt or paralysed
 
:venomoth:

As pathetic as it is, Venomoth has some really interesting traits: It's the second faster sleeper with a 75% accurate sleep move. What sets it apart from Jynx, though, is that it can follow up with paralysis (Jynx can Body Slam, but that isn't really that reliable). It also takes physical hits better than Jynx does (though mildly). If you really want to be an asshole, it learns Supersonic and Flash as well.

I might try it, but it doesn't seem to have much more niche than that? 90 is too slow to be a lead, it sorely lacks the offense Jynx has (though depending on what moves you choose, you can theoretically still revenge kill Rhydon or Exeggutor), and also its typing is not really all that useful, while Jynx has a really good typing.

As for moves outside Double Powder, Psychic is generally the best general damage option, Mega Drain lets it fight Rhydon (though it needs to be weakened or put to sleep), Leech Life hits Exeggutor, and Double-Edge exists if you want to pressure Psychics more - If you crit Zam or something, they'll have to recover, which is a decent spot to be in.

Venomoth in all likelihood wants to try to pick on Lax, Veno can repeatedly put Lax to sleep and try to chip it with Psychic. This can be combined with Flash to force a switch, which Venomoth really wants to spread its statuses. Alternatively, you can use Leech Life and Mega Drain to bully Exeggutor and Rhydon, or as mentioned earlier, Double-Edge or Hyper Beam can go with any of these options, Venomoth doesn't mind the downsides too much, as it's bound to die anyways.

Venomoth really wishes it was pure Bug.

EDIT: Here's some exportables

Venomoth
-Psychic
-Mega Drain
-Sleep Powder
-Stun Spore
Clyde Cash (Venomoth)
-Psychic
-Flash
-Sleep Powder
-Stun Spore
big SUCC (Venomoth)
-Mega Drain
-Leech Life
-Sleep Powder
-Stun Spore
ow the edge (Venomoth)
-Psychic
-Double-Edge
-Sleep Powder
-Stun Spore
Smogon-Approved (Venomoth)
-Supersonic
-Flash
-Sleep Powder
-Stun Spore

EDIT2: Forgot to nickname the troll set
 
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:venomoth:

As pathetic as it is, Venomoth has some really interesting traits: It's the second faster sleeper with a 75% accurate sleep move. What sets it apart from Jynx, though, is that it can follow up with paralysis (Jynx can Body Slam, but that isn't really that reliable). It also takes physical hits better than Jynx does (though mildly). If you really want to be an asshole, it learns Supersonic and Flash as well.

I might try it, but it doesn't seem to have much more niche than that? 90 is too slow to be a lead, it sorely lacks the offense Jynx has (though depending on what moves you choose, you can theoretically still revenge kill Rhydon or Exeggutor), and also its typing is not really all that useful, while Jynx has a really good typing.

As for moves outside Double Powder, Psychic is generally the best general damage option, Mega Drain lets it fight Rhydon (though it needs to be weakened or put to sleep), Leech Life hits Exeggutor, and Double-Edge exists if you want to pressure Psychics more - If you crit Zam or something, they'll have to recover, which is a decent spot to be in.

Venomoth in all likelihood wants to try to pick on Lax, Veno can repeatedly put Lax to sleep and try to chip it with Psychic. This can be combined with Flash to force a switch, which Venomoth really wants to spread its statuses. Alternatively, you can use Leech Life and Mega Drain to bully Exeggutor and Rhydon, or as mentioned earlier, Double-Edge or Hyper Beam can go with any of these options, Venomoth doesn't mind the downsides too much, as it's bound to die anyways.

Venomoth really wishes it was pure Bug.

EDIT: Here's some exportables

Venomoth
-Psychic
-Mega Drain
-Sleep Powder
-Stun Spore
Clyde Cash (Venomoth)
-Psychic
-Flash
-Sleep Powder
-Stun Spore
big SUCC (Venomoth)
-Mega Drain
-Leech Life
-Sleep Powder
-Stun Spore
ow the edge (Venomoth)
-Psychic
-Double-Edge
-Sleep Powder
-Stun Spore
Smogon-Approved (Venomoth)
-Supersonic
-Flash
-Sleep Powder
-Stun Spore

EDIT2: Forgot to nickname the troll set
Venomoth is something I've actually been testing lately, I really disagree that it's all that useful against Lax- you'd really want more bulk and a usable STAB to be taking it on. Where Moth is least terrible is against Chansey. BoltBeam neutrality is one of the few advantages it has over other dual Powder users, plus its Double-Edge is strong enough to be bothersome, though it falls short of actually threatening Chansey- your best bet is forcing it to click Softboiled so something comes in without risking status.

Moth's biggest issue is that it struggles against sleepblockers, which means you generally want to get it in asap to land status. That's a problem when the early game is dominated by Psychic types, which makes it really awkward. It's still substantially better than Butterfree thanks to its DE being usable against Zam/Jynx/Chansey and therefore it can somewhat do stuff if they have status, but otherwise it has a lot of the same issues

Flash is a neat tech option for Moth, but I suspect it would be difficult to actually leverage its potential to force switches. Basically anything can switch into it, and the opponent can just stay in and try their luck with the impaired accuracy since Moth is so pathetic
 
Okay guys hear me out with this one…
BDE57054-BEBF-424D-AC07-FEB267A72017.png

Lead Ninetales
Now you may be thinking “What the fuck is Ninetales supposed to do as a lead” and I wouldn’t blame you. Arguably the most common leads at the moment are Starmie and Alakazam, and what’s Ninetales supposed to do to them? Well for all of its negatives as a lead, Ninetales has one amazing trait that helps it in the lead metagame, and is the main reason why I’m making this:

D4477739-9EAE-4DBF-8CE2-E7BF5F82EB81.png

It beats Jynx​

Ninetales is tied with Tentacruel and Charizard for the second fastest user of a partial trapping move in RBY, and along with Rapidash are the only PT users with a speed stat higher than Jynx. Both Tentacruel and Charizard are much less equipped to beat Jynx, however, as they are both weak to Jynx’s STAB combination. Even Rapidash has a small chance of being 2HKO’d by Blizzard. Meanwhile Ninetales is only 3HKO’d by both Blizzard and Psychic, so it can afford to miss Fire Spin.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that’s how its able to beat. One sequence of Fire Spin is enough to bring Jynx into KO range of both Fire Blast and Flamethrower, although its more consistent with Fire Blast which is just barely unable to OHKO by itself. Fire Blast’s 85% accuracy can be a bit of a pain sometimes, but it also has better numbers against everything in general compared to Flamethrower so I’d say its likely better.

Lastly for the Jynx MU, Jynx can obviously put Ninetales to sleep, but if you can get your opponent to put your fucking Ninetales to sleep instead of something actually valuable then I’d say Ninetales did its job anyway.

Outside of that Ninetales isn’t exactly useless after the start of a game, and it’s mid game utility is probably better than Jynx’s, mostly coming from its access to PT as well as Confuse Ray, letting it act as a check to Exeggutor and acting as a pivot against a predicted Tauros Hyper Beam. This goes for most Pokemon but Ninetales is way more likely to be at full HP by the time the Tauros war happens. Ninetales can also spam Body Slam to spread paralysis, which can be extra annoying with Ninetales’s unique combination of partial trapping and confuse ray.

Anyway yeah, I don’t know how to end these so I just want it to be known that I absolutely despise Jynx.
 
While I think Ninetales does slightly better in the Jynx matchup than Flareon, I think Flareon does better or evens against Starmie/Alakazam/anything thats speed isn't below Ninetales but above Flareons. Flareon takes hits a little better and dishes out just enough more damage to make up for the speed loss.
Flareon vs Starmie Slam Slam Hyper can KO
Flareon vs Alakazam Slam Hyper can KO
I guess Ninetales is switching out in those situations.
Whenever I've used Ninetales, like I want Ninetales to work but 70% accuracy on fire spin is tough. Like I actually don't mind using thunder on certain mons (Lapras to 2KO Starmie, bolt is 3KO, similar enough odds to take the risk for instance), but Ninetales missing always feels deadly for me.
 
While I think Ninetales does slightly better in the Jynx matchup than Flareon, I think Flareon does better or evens against Starmie/Alakazam/anything thats speed isn't below Ninetales but above Flareons. Flareon takes hits a little better and dishes out just enough more damage to make up for the speed loss.
I was mainly focusing on the Jynx matchup when talking about lead Ninetales (because I hate Jynx and want her to die) and Ninetales’ faster speed than Jynx is the main selling point for me, but after putting it into practice I found it to not be terrible against everything else. Ninetales is the only mon in RBY with access to partial trapping and Confuse Ray, which is more useful than I expected. Unless Starmie runs Surf (which it almost never does) it can nail it with Confuse Ray and more safely fish for a Body Slam para. It sounds stupid (because it is) but you’d be surprised with how well it can sort of work kind of

Ninetales also notably outspeeds Moltres, so it can act as a check to it similar to how Jolteon does against Zapdos, something Flareon cannot replicate due to being slower
 
I was mainly focusing on the Jynx matchup when talking about lead Ninetales (because I hate Jynx and want her to die) and Ninetales’ faster speed than Jynx is the main selling point for me, but after putting it into practice I found it to not be terrible against everything else. Ninetales is the only mon in RBY with access to partial trapping and Confuse Ray, which is more useful than I expected. Unless Starmie runs Surf (which it almost never does) it can nail it with Confuse Ray and more safely fish for a Body Slam para. It sounds stupid (because it is) but you’d be surprised with how well it can sort of work kind of

Ninetales also notably outspeeds Moltres, so it can act as a check to it similar to how Jolteon does against Zapdos, something Flareon cannot replicate due to being slower
Lead Raichu is a decentish option, as it scares off Starmie without letting Rhydon in free, and can outspeed and OHKO Jynx with a crit Hyper Beam(or be sleep fodder if you don't get the crit). It's not that great, but it's better than what the standard meta leads except Gar can do to Jynx. Eggy matchup sucks but otherwise it's serviceable.
 
Just some general other observations.......

Lead Flareon generally baits out Earthquake users, Rhydon in particular, which in turn can enable Articuno/Eggy/Tangela basically a free switch in.
Tangela is high risk high reward. I think you need to run rest/mega drain/growth and either sleep or stun. Sleep makes it easier to get growths up earlier, but stun is more useful once you're set up. I've had more success with 2 initial growths followed by mega draining until you need to use rest. I think you need rest, as painful as taking the second status move away is, because without rest you are too liable to death by crits (Which is why boosting to 3x special generally isn't worth it, at some point you will receive a crit, ruining your defences).
Poliwhirl may be the only pokemon with an evolved form you might not want ? Poliwhirl has more speed AND doesn't die to a crit psychic, compared to Poliwrath. You do need to run hydro pump to make it work though. (Hydro/Hypnosis/Rest/Amnesia).
Counter Hypno is also fun, although maybe not jank. People seem to switch out a lot after they KO you, knowing that Hypno can run double status. You can also win vs Tauros/Snorlax going Twave -> Counter -> Psychic.
Lickitung is the only Swords Dance user with STAB Hyper Beam. Use that information however you want lol.
I used to use Magmar a bit with confuse ray / smokescreen stall. Probably can't dish out enough damage to really make useful though.
Sweep Sandslash goes alright
 
This may be a bit too practical for this thread, but I wanted to make an appreciation post for what have become my two favorite mons to use in RBY OU and how they can work together

C532D1DD-E8E1-41C1-8006-D4527C45D146.png
831F6642-452B-4885-93F6-06CBDD589390.png

If you’ve seen me on the RBY Discord, you’d know that its no secret that I absolutely adore Jolteon. His ability to outspeed the entire metagame, possessing a crit rate that can feel downright unfair at times, and lets you wall Zapdos without having to use the second worst mon in RBY (Rhydon isn’t bad I just hate him) make him one of my most used mons outside of the Big 3. Even outside of RBY, I tend to use the fastest Pokémon in the metagame that I’m playing because that trait is so valuable to have (I use Dragapult all the time in SV for example). I’d go as far as to say that a Choice Scarf or priority user is basically required on any non-stall team Gen 4 onwards

To be completely honest, it took me a while to figure out why Jolteon was considered OU when I got into RBY. I mean, why not use Zapdos right? And until recently, I also felt the same way about Moltres. The way they both surprised me with how strong they are may just be the reason why I love them so much. I’ve been using them together a lot, and I want to show that they even have synergy with each other.

Jolteon gets help from Moltres in a similar way it does to Cloyster. Jolteon can struggle to switch in, but Moltres is able to let it in with Fire Spin. In addition, Jolteon can struggle against Exeggutor, but it comes as no surprise that Moltres is extremely good against it. You can run Pin Missile to overcome this, but Rest is also useful in this synergy. Zapdos is a good check to Moltres, because Moltres fears paralysis and takes a lot from tbolt. Jolteon also doesn’t like paralysis, but running Rest allows it to shrug it off in the long run. One of Jolteon’s main flaws against Zapdos is that it tends to take a twave on the switch, but if Zapdos switches into a Moltres Fire Spin, Jolteon can switch into Zapdos and be immediately threatening a twave against Zapdos first, which also helps Moltres who appreciates a paralyzed team to make up for its only okay speed tier. Jolteon can safely paralyze everything in the tier that outspeeds Moltres, with the exception of Tauros who fears a burn from Moltres anyway, and you could totally argue that putting your Jolteon in danger to paralyze Tauros is a good trade. This rarely happens anyway; the Tauros player usually switches against Jolteon form my experience.

The main flaw with this synergy is that it doesn’t do much against Rhydon which is a big deal. I‘ve actually used Articuno or Lapras sometimes instead of Moltres solely to cover this weakness, but Fire Spin is what makes up for it. So although those two cover Jolteon’s weaknesses better on paper, they don’t do so as well as you’d expect in practice. You can always use Cloyster anyway, so they don’t offer that much outside of Articuno’s sheer power and Lapras’s mixed bulk. They are fun though, so I may make a post about it some other time

Oh yeah here have a team: https://pokepast.es/80a77b25d24a0eea
 
Pinsir is a beast. I've topped the ladder with him various times over the past year (currently as meme legend 69) and I can't imagine playing without him.

Compared to other swords dancers, he's clearly the best of them on paper (highest attack, high physical bulk, no special weaknesses - fire is not a real attacking type in OU). But what really sets him apart is bind. Bind allows him to get meaningful chip damage to bring targets into KO range. And bind by itself can just flat out win games that you would otherwise lose.

+2 hyper beam falls just short of a KO on a 100% health Starmie... but bind + hyper beam is a guaranteed KO. You do have the miss chance, but assuming Starmie is paralyzed, you have extremely high odds to win this interaction.

Pinsir's main downsides are his inability to touch Gengar - you NEED to make sure they don't have Gengar before you reveal Pinsir - and the limited number of team structures that work with him. You still need Snorlax and Tauros if you want to run Pinsir. That means you have 3 slots to play with, and since you already have 3 physical attackers with limited defensive utility, you will most likely need to run either 3 psychics or 2 psychics + Chansey in those final slots.

The set is swords dance + hyper beam + bind + submission. Slash is a trap. Reflect Chansey and Snorlax are losing to swords dance + bind regardless. You don't need to waste a spot on slash.
 
While I disagree that Pinsir is the best SD user, he is definitely up there with the others. I do agree with the set for Pinsir, I honestly never got why people say that Pinsir has “4 moveslot syndrome”. Like sure you can run stoss to damage gengar, but you’re probably fucked in that situation anyways. Its like saying Jolteon runs dkick for rhydon, you’re just losing a terrible matchup a little less. Slash was also weird to me. You‘re using a swords dance sweeper, so you might as well go all in to make use of its niche. Slash is worthless when you have a SD up, which you often do
 
None of the swords dancers sweep like Pinsir. They might have niche defensive utility (Kabutops, Sandslash) or a better speed tier (Charizard) but they can't come in and sweep paralyzed teams like Pinsir.

Kingler is comparable, but his only real advantage is beating Rhydon without any setup or chip damage... in exchange for being better at that one specific matchup, you lose bind and you're weak to random thunderbolts. I've played with both and Pinsir sweeps more often.
 

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