OU RBY OU Ladder / "Jank" Discussion Thread

Tree69420

早上好中国、现在我有bing chilling!
is a Tiering Contributor
i think nidoking and nidoqueen should be run together so you have two broken pokemon with perfect coverage that can come in against lightning moves
you might want to pair them with onix who can use bind to chip down checks like exeggutor who can live a blizzard, and also come in against current moves
 
you might want to pair them with onix who can use bind to chip down checks like exeggutor who can live a blizzard, and also come in against current moves
Onix might look good in theory because it's defense stat, but Rhydon is better defense because it's HP stat, it has to do with how damage is calculated, look at the damage calculator. Bind isn't that good, and rhydon can cover with ice beam
 
I think nidoking and nidoqueen should be run together so they can both bask in the warmth of each other’s company and savor the deep love that has bloomed between them over the past 26 years. The world is cold. Blizzards don’t hit as much as they used to, but it still feels like every day is a little colder as the first digits in their age threaten to tick from a 5 to a 6. The only warmth that can cure it is the two of them sitting together on a porch patio, swinging, sharing body heat. A long span of pleasant winter afternoons staring out into the woods, reminiscing about how fast their little tyke grew up and learned bubblebeam after the second gym, telling stories as the sun dips to night, it’s all how they would run their lives. I would wish no sweeter fate on the duo as they grow old in sweet peace and relaxation, enjoying one another’s coverage, despite their really bad base stats and exploitable typing.
 
Alright, time for an update on my trashmon experiments
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Kadabra is obviously just a broke man's Zam, so I think the question around Kadabra's viability revolves less about how it performs, and more around whether or not you can run it alongside Zam without your team being shit. I think the answer is unequivocally yes. Kadabra is easily the best trashmon I've tested, however that's not really saying much.

Firstly, despite its best set being fairly obvious, what isn't obvious is how you use it. Should you lead with it? Should you reveal Zam early and try to preserve Kad as a sweeper, or use Kad to set up a Zam sweep? There's actually a very clear answer to the latter question- Kadabra is totally unviable as a sweeper due to being outsped and OHKO'd by Tauros, which proves extremely difficult to play around.

That means it's supporting a Zam sweep, whether from the lead position or not. I run Kadabra as both a lead and non-lead, however it is unambiguously better as a lead, purely because your team is so much more balanced. I'm still not sure if non-lead Kadabra is even viable due to an overabundance of physically frail pokemon, but I still think it's better than stuff like Pidgeot. As a lead, it basically does the same stuff as Zam, just being outpaced by Zam and Star. Being slower than the rare Gengar lead does seem like it would be an issue, but in practice it isn't that bad- if Gengar stays in and misses it's in a world of pain.

Anyway, as I mentioned, Kadabra is a broke man's Zam, making it a solid, though unspectacular choice. It's capable of spreading status and can opportunistically hax its way through checks, however its absurd vulnerability to physical attackers does limit its potential
https://pokepast.es/71dc310ce00ff866 (non-lead)
https://pokepast.es/f262de9c833b5d41 (lead)

Most of these replays were saved prior to the replays being lost, so they might not work. Sorrry!
Tournament
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1790610569-gifhar0oj2th2hlp9znmq55w6xgj17ypw
Played way too fucking risky and got burned by luck as a result. I was still trying to remember how to play this team, which really isn't a good sign. A more balanced team wouldn't have been screwed as badly by luck. Also we can add Zap to the list of sweepers that body Kadabra lol, I was lucky to break through it here
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1854057601-00ilkupglbjm3o1aaek4oes3y14vhu0pw
Kad actually went pretty well. I got rather lucky with it so it's not fully representative of what it can do, but it's not as though it isn't capable of severe hax either. Basically drastically weakened both Jynx and Chansey to the point where they were almost useless for the rest of the match
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-690040
This set kinda illustrates the flaws with this team. Zapdos is super awkward to deal with, since I don't have TWave on Chansey, Kadabra isn't that great against it either, and I don't want to compromise Zam. Anyway, Kadabra was able to apply some pressure, but I didn't really manage to properly capitalise on it
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-694155
Kad actually put in a decent amount of work, being a solid defensive piece and status/chip spreader
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1886528662-uxo15ywan0rf3f2dec8va9qbrwymb86pw
Second tournament match with my new Kadabra team (ChansL) and it actually went really well! Kadabra was able to break through Chansey, which helped me set up my Zam to take a very threatening position. I can't say for sure exactly how threatening, as Medeia decided to forfeit early. Anyway, Kadabra breaking down walls to set up Zam is the theory behind running Kadabra in the first place, so it's great to see it realised
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1887120768-qtor21bv5frwkgmw041n2iopc27uunvpw
Tour match vs Stunner047 using my KadL team. Kad didn't do a whole lot here, given that it was a Jynx matchup, but the team ended up working well overall
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1891602493-ni9uuo9uxng3z61fakpkcdzjhnuprjwpw
Lead Kadabra match where it managed to put in work. Did what I expect from it, forcing Rests from both Jolteon and Egg before being slept. Later on it woke up and applied some pressure to Chansey, before I carelessly left it on an Egg HB (wasn't expecting HB, but I definitely considered DE a possibility, which would've been equally fatal)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-710981
Fairly typical match with Kad vs a Jynx lead- got early para and sleep foddered it. Was still able to use it to bait a predictable Lax switch, allowing me to safely bring in Egg. Later in the game it was used as fodder.

Ladder (note to self- all ladder replays came after swapping to ChansL)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1896007995-gbf4e2xt55riyz47dhmsfz9cred8f30pw
This was a brutal loss to a bad opponent with my non-lead Kadabra team. I got unlucky in the Tauros ditto but this team just caved to physical attackers. Although I was playing terribly today, I don't think my play this match was that bad- I definitely played Lax a little too carelessly, but reading an Egg switch I think is defensible
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1898576882-jy2w4idn49zxc01lldihpckkzct76p0pw
Battle against a strong player (apparently they're not Ebola??? Lol). Kadabra was more of a liability in this match. It spread a bit of para and got a little bit of chip damage on Egg, but was heavily abused by physical attackers and I never quite managed to recover. Admittedly I don't think I made the right choices in defending against them, but these match ups have a very slim margin of error for this team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1900474178-esv96x0wkuv6f5c7nzz85br64q9zgekpw
Battle against a respectable opponent with my KadL team. Kadabra actually went fairly well this match, paralysing and weakening their Jynx before taking sleep. Afterwards I was then able to use it as a tool for switching, and it got an early wake that let it apply pressure and eventually set up a KO on Lax
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Poliwhirl is actually a really potent Pokemon, it's just supremely unreliable. Hypnosis+Amnesia is just an insane combo, even on a Pokemon as weak as Whirl. It does need an Amnesia to be dealing substantial damage, however that's really easy to achieve. The potency of this combo alone is enough for me to consider it worth using... but its flaws mean that it only barely achieves this status, and I rank it alongside Magneton.

The biggest issue is its dependence on Hypnosis and Hydro Pump (Surf doesn't deal enough damage), which are obviously prone to missing, an issue that's only compounded if it gets paralysed. On top of which its stats just aren't good enough. 90 base SPE falls just short of every notable fast Pokemon in RBY. That in conjunction with its poor defenses mean that it's easily revenge killed, while those same defenses make bad luck all the more punishing.

I think the comparison with Poliwrath is interesting. Wrath's superior bulk gives it a larger margin of error, while it can generate some value from its Fighting typing. However if you maximise the value of that Fighting typing with Submission, you're making an already unreliable Pokemon even more unreliable, and also Fighting typing is already probably scaring Normals out. I still think Poliwrath is probably better, but the margin may not be as large as expected. Also Poliwhirl is better into Victreebel, which isn't a huge deal but it's not nothing either

Side note: I personally found that people rarely try to block sleep with Poliwhirl (which is probably the correct call), so you're generally best to just fire off a Hypnosis once it's in
https://pokepast.es/16c9f7666a2de136

Most of these replays were saved prior to the replays being lost, so they might not work. Sorrry!
Tournament--------------
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-690039
The team debut. I managed to win but it wasn't pretty. Poliwhirl had a dream matchup and managed to put Chansey to sleep, while setting up a really threatening position, before falling short due to bad luck. I suspect that will be a recurring theme with Poliwhirl
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1869489719-jczvu8pi857v0cwphb8kg648yvrebiwpw
Whirl kinda did things? I was able to exploit a mono-IB Chansey to make it into a large threat, then leveraged that threat to predict high risk options from my opponent (Cloy boom, Taur HBeam). Also Whirl managed to luck its way through Chansey which was cool
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-710980
Whirl played a small but vital role in this game, utilising its fast Hypnosis to incapacitate and take down a problematic Victreebel. Worth noting that Poliwrath couldn't have performed nearly as well in that role due to speed tying Bel
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-712153
Real lowlight for Poliwhirl here. Brought it in more or less for free, and it died without achieving anything
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1939608122-jbbahio90zwnnk6k0evw8zn2zya9swxpw
Poliwhirl didn't accomplish too much here, as a lack of paralysed opps meant it didn't have much in the way of openings
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If you look at Pidgeot and think that it's totally outclassed, you'd pretty much be right, I had a tough time finding a way for it to stand out from Dodrio and Fearow, who are themselves obviously mediocre at best. I initially thought a Rest+Reflect set would be a good way to capitalise on Pidgeot's superior bulk, while also theoretically being able to sweep with decent speed and STAB HB. However I cannot stress enough how terrible that idea was. Pidgeot's bad typing makes it vulnerable to everything and a monumental liability once Resting, while its bulk, despite being superior to the competition, is still pretty bad. Additionally it struggles against the physical attackers you'd want a Rest+Reflect set for. Tauros, Rhydon, IBLax and AmnesiaLax all murder it, while it can't actually beat any form of RefLax. That really only leaves PhysLax that it's capable of walling

In the end I resorted to DE/HB/Mirror Move/Sand Attack. STAB options are an obvious choice, Mirror Move gives it an edge over Drio, and lets it use Rest+Reflect without actually running it (it's theoretically a super versatile move, but that was the best use I found with it). Sand Attack looks bad and it is a lot of the time, but it's surprisingly useful for Pidgeot. This is because Pidgeot is hard countered by stuff like Rhydon, but it also struggles to force switches, meaning calling out a switch with a switch of your own can be very risky. In that scenario, Sand Attack has value as an option that provides a small amount of value no matter what the opponent does.

Anyway Pidgeot sucks, and is only barely above the bottom of the barrel
https://pokepast.es/558c89ebbcffb4d2

Ladder---
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1947708132-cynp636c4rp2f9cf9y4ipz0vdejcepvpw (ladder)
Disaster of a match for Pidgeot. Got hard countered by Gengar, while fully highlighting just how cumbersome Rest+Reflect is for something with obvious weaknesses. It was kinda forced to go for Rest+Reflect to do anything vs Lax, but every time it tried Gengar came in and forced it out before it could heal or do anything. I could've tried predicting those switches, but they were far from forced, which meant such a prediction would be incredibly risky. I've since stopped trying to use Reflect Pidgeot
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1958490336-qx0wxidxa8jlrxz60clppwg2hhr1tocpw
Pidgeot wasn't useless, but it also didn't achieve anything in this game. I was able to leverage the Gengar-Flying combo to give it a bit of defensive utility against Lax, but offensively it did nothing because it got countered by Starmie every time it came in. Not having Body Slam sucks lol
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1982842042-tndc3oc4lbnidep1zt3tqgakqn11zbypw
At this point I was so sick of Pidgeot but I wanted another half decent replay, and this one gives an accurate depiction of the Pidgeot experience. I was able to use it here, but it doesn't really do anything, since it can't beat Reflect, and it can't deal with Recover users (or really anything faster than it). I wasn't happy with my play this match, but my opponent did well to maximise the value of their luck

Tour-----
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1939604640-97uq8ir1om7bnyhwzlmjbkzhpzlmocspw (tour)
Pidgeot actually kinda filled its role for once! Walled Lax and was able to land a few clutch crits. It was an absolute liability against their Zapdos though. If I hadn't gotten lucky with that Explosion 255 I probably wouldn't have won this game
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-721172
This was a funny match for Pidgeot in that it almost looked threatening with a weakened team and key paralysis spread, except Green had a Rhydon in the back. Because of that, Pidgeot was practically useless. I started running Sand Attack as a tech for this scenario, but that only has a small effect of making things slightly less bad- Don still destroys Pidgeot

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Ahhh Beedrill, wielding the strongest Bug type attack in the game in a generation dominated by Psychic types. This might be a reason for hope, which makes it all the more tragic that Beedrill is absolute garbage. Its stats range from awful to mediocre, and for a Pokemon defined by being able to hit Psychic types super effectively, it sure does suck being OHKO'd by literally every Psychic attack in the game. On top of which, Twineedle is just a terrible move with an effective base 50 power.

Beedrill does get some good boosting options which can make it a threat, the trouble is that it needs to spend multiple turns boosting to be a threat (either +4/+2 or +2/+2 against a heavily weakened team), as it needs SD to be a threat and Agility to have a hope against faster Psychics/revenge killers. All while being OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by almost every relevant Pokemon, thanks to its pathetic bulk and lack of resistances. If that sounds unrealistic to you, that's because it is. It is possible for Beedrill to be made into a threat, with the right matchup and extensive para/chip but it's far more likely that it will just die. At least it's good against Victreebel?

I consider this Pokemon to be a deadweight in the majority of scenarios, and not worthy of use even in my trashmon era. Having said that, I think it's the slightest step above stuff like Golbat, as I was able to get a sliver of value out of it. I put it a subrank above Golbat, and retrospectively decided that I was slightly too harsh on Butterfree and decided they can share a rank
https://pokepast.es/b7696a8dd0c598ce

Some of these replays were affected by the issues at the end of last year so they may not work, sorry!
Ladder-------
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1987520664-oyjg87sxmr3e0jlinuf2b9giqyxx23fpw
Beedrill couldn't even force a switch against Egg so it just fucking died lmao. So much for Bug attacks. The worst part is, that's a fair play from my opponent, because Beedrill doesn't KO there without a crit. Also I really played like ass this game lol
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1990325250-ib957hc9k0z4uimsy83txbtjy3wg2lypw
I think I really executed the Beedrill game plan well- maintained status on the opposing Psychics and pressured them as much as possible. And guess what? It got me nowhere and I got fucking destroyed. Bee didn't have enough power to actually gain an advantage over the opposing Psychics, who were consistently able to leverage the threat of an OHKO to prevent Bee from getting anything going
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1990332668-nxca6qoi1byfavajobxnl74whqu0mfppw
Got a Beedrill sweep! My opponent wasn't at a high level though, and it involved an unreasonable amount of turns spent boosting (Bee needs to get to +4 to OHKO Chansey and 2HKO Tauros). I don't care, I'm just glad I managed to pull it off
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1994015272-lst86zj9qchnzodblgt4yt12t3slqhqpw
Had a match against an opponent at a respectable elo. What's notable about this one is that Beedrill actually had a fantastic matchup. Victreebel is basically the only pokemon that Beedrill provides defensive value against, which meant it really contributed this match, walling Bel and eventually dealing a ton of damage to it. It's a shame a HB miss robbed me of the win, cool team from my opponent though.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2005119477-9qjmyqxcoedjq6qj68e24tetel6drmdpw
Unsure if I should include this replay- I'd like to because they're a solid opponent, but Bee did nothing in this match. I ended up losing when their 10% Tauros OHKO'd mine from full (4.7% chance)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2011742111-cs5dhys53qfwt5guaz2ci6rzeksuweepw
I'd like another replay where Bee does something, but this opponent was respectable and this is illustrative. Bee had a reasonable chance to do something, boosting up on a weakened, paralysed non-Psychic Star. I could've gone for the KO at +2, but I needed to also Agility to avoid the immediate revenge kill. As a result, Bee got crit and fucking died to a neutral attack bc it's so frail
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Tbh I was looking forward to using Marowak. Not because I thought it would be good, but because it has some semblance of defensive utility, a rarity at this level of viability Anyway, I think Marowak is pretty clearly a bad pokemon, but not bottom of the barrel. It's slow, a mediocre attacker and a liability against strong special attackers. Its movepool isn't great, as it's able to attack and not much else. Its main utility is as a speed bump for Rhydon, Electrics and Gengar, however its matchups against Don and Zap aren't as good as you might think.

It obviously doesn't resist Don's EQ which limits its ability to switch in, however it also struggles to 2HKO- it needs Bubble Beam to be likely to 2HKO, as Blizzard has an unfavourable roll. Meanwhile Zap 4HKOs with DP over 85% of the time, meaning Marowak usually loses. That said, Wak's still really useful in those matchups, as even if it has issues, it's at least setting up for a revenge kill on a potent threat.

Unfortunately in a meta where Egg and Star are both popular, it's going to struggle to deal much damage and that's the reality of Marowak. It offers far more defensive value than it does offensive. Also I mentioned Bubble Beam earlier- I honestly think that's Marowak's best 4th option because it's a difference maker in the Don match up. I tried Counter as well, inspired by Tarvold's post about Counter Nidoqueen, and ended up throwing countless games as a result. Some of this is a skill issue, but I think it's genuinely a terrible option, as the risk-reward of trying to use Counter (which is almost exclusively to catch a HB) is insane

https://pokepast.es/1827c01e928f75e6

Tour--------------
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-706245
Think this is my second tour match with Wak, and the first where it actually did anything. It helped stymie the opposing Zap, but its pathetic special stat was on full display, as although Blizzard did reasonable chip damage to Egg and Zap, it was less than what other Ground types can achieve and it's still probably losing to Zap
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-736814
A very frustrating tour match tbh- early hax on my Chansey put me way behind in the match and I was playing catch-up the whole time when I should've gone on the aggressive. In any case, Wak performed with precise mediocrity. It helped defensively against Zap, but it struggled to do any substantial damage
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-740535
This match came against someone participating in their first tournament, so playing me and my trashmons would've been interesting. Anyway, this was a relatively typical use case of Wak in that I was able to bring it in vs Gar early in the game. Where this was atypical is that I was neither slept nor met with a Ground resist- instead Wak got to go toe to toe with Lax. I could've spammed EQ to put Lax in range of a revenge kill after Wak lost the 1v1, but instead I went for Counter to try to win the 1v1 and got screwed by luck as a result
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1ou-741748
Standard use of Wak against Zap. Surprisingly it survived the matchup, but was on such low HP it wasn't good for much. I was hoping to preserve it to use against Lax, but that ended up not eventuating

Friendly----------
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2049115260-h8ewtebj27mzp1lt1a57pqruknace9fpw
Wak came in handy as a check to Zap, but the duo of Star and Egg shut it down completely. Admittedly, not clicking BS when I could was a misplay. Later on I tried catching a HB for Counter and died as a result. Counter Marowak is sooooo fucking bad.

Anyway, if you're curious, here is my personal VR for the trashmons that I've tested
Usable--------
Kadabra
Magneton, Poliwhirl
Bad-------
Hitmonchan
Venomoth, Marowak
Farfetch'd, Pidgeot
Never------
Beedrill, Butterfree
Golbat, Seaking
Ditto-------
Ditto
 
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