OU RBY OU Discussion Thread

[TC]

idk why should be something wrong with fishing freezes, i mean its pokemon lol

 

[Ortheore]

I also have no problem with freeze fishing, but I honestly thought it only really became a thing as a means of threatening status without throwing early para, at least until you're in a position to put something to sleep without substantial repercussion. I guess if that's your plan then your team is probably coincidentally geared to fish for freezes after sleep is used (there's not really too much difference), but I still value para's (relative) reliability far more than freeze, so once sleep is no longer a concern, I'd generally prefer to spam para

edit @below: eh fair enough, the only reason I talked about freeze fishing post-sleep is because people were referring to freeze-fishing in general, so I assumed that to encompass post-sleep. As far as freeze-fishing being a point in general, I responded because it was somehow a topic of discussion, but as I alluded to in my post, my only experience with it being a substantial trend is in the context of pre-sleep manoeuvring.

 

[Amaranth]

Fellas nobody who's playing RBY has a problem with freeze fishing, not sure why this is a talking point

I feel like these posts are misinterpreting the arguments that were brought forth re: 2021 meta being higher variance, it was analysis rather than call to action for a majority of it - pretty much only samy0w has pushed the notion that something needs to be done, others have entertained it but never really supported it

Another blatant thing is that nobody ever mentioned freeze fishing after sleep as anything that's remotely problematic or even any different than it's always used to be. If anything, the one really viable strategy to play for sleep then freeze - which was jynx into mono ice beam lax + chans bull mie jolt, Nails farmed kids for years using this - went massively down in viability as a result of higher Cloy popularity. The entire discussion revolves around current sleep meta encouraging ice moves to fly before any sleep moves are clicked, which is new and high variance, not much what happens after sleep lands because it doesn't take a genius to tell that para spreading is more consistent from that point onwards in a vast majority of situations

Also the "people talk about old meta highly because it's old" thing doesn't really resonate with my perception of things at all, maybe if you spoke to people who quit in the last couple years you'd get that sentiment, but I feel like most people are happy to embrace meta developments in this thread. Personally speaking my desire to innovate and bring RBY closer to a fully optimized state is a huge reason why I keep playing, and I know for a fact a lot of other people here are similarly forward thinking

So yeah I feel like you guys defending things that nobody (except maybe samy0w) is attacking

 

[samy0w]

Fellas nobody who's playing RBY has a problem with freeze fishing, not sure why this is a talking point

I think it was a bit misunderstood, since I was referring to a combination of sleep and freeze.

I feel like these posts are misinterpreting the arguments that were brought forth re: 2021 meta being higher variance, it was analysis rather than call to action for a majority of it - pretty much only samy0w has pushed the notion that something needs to be done, others have entertained it but never really supported it

Sure, why not. I was pointing out that it makes sense to also take a closer look at sleep mechanics since other gens either banned it or are discussing to get it removed (ADV currently)

Another blatant thing is that nobody ever mentioned freeze fishing after sleep as anything that's remotely problematic or even any different than it's always used to be. If anything, the one really viable strategy to play for sleep then freeze - which was jynx into mono ice beam lax + chans bull mie jolt, Nails farmed kids for years using this - went massively down in viability as a result of higher Cloy popularity. The entire discussion revolves around current sleep meta encouraging ice moves to fly before any sleep moves are clicked, which is new and high variance, not much what happens after sleep lands because it doesn't take a genius to tell that para spreading is more consistent from that point onwards in a vast majority of situations

This is what I completely disagree with, if anything it went up in viability since Cloyster most of the times either fires Blizzards or trys to Clamp you -> higher Cloy popularity
2) reflect chansey dropped in usage because it was replaced by sing chansey. So if you are running sing you probably will pick ice beam as your attacking move
3) reflect ice beam snorlax, you dont want to be stuck in a lax mirror without ice beam. I cant say if this is just bothering me but dropping ice beam on lax currently feels like puts you automatically in a losing matchup

Its high variance in the sense of that if you manage to freeze something the game becomes more of a dice roll later on but I elaborated on that earlier on here. Fishing for freeze is more free than ever also because some people did manage to spread the starmie+cloy+jolt team so much which is basically nails team but he just plays it with jynx or so. What you are trying to suggest is that Cloyster stops that freeze fishing which might be true but then you are a freeze fisher yourself because Cloyster contributes a lot to this strategy. Ill kind of agree that spreading para is better on paper if you can catch a tauros/snorlax but otherwise its not even really needed since you have enough tools to block the enemy from advancing through spreading para.

Also the "people talk about old meta highly because it's old" thing doesn't really resonate with my perception of things at all, maybe if you spoke to people who quit in the last couple years you'd get that sentiment, but I feel like most people are happy to embrace meta developments in this thread. Personally speaking my desire to innovate and bring RBY closer to a fully optimized state is a huge reason why I keep playing, and I know for a fact a lot of other people here are similarly forward thinking

Its not thaat bad okay. It used to be better in my opinion though. Meta developments are a good sight but I wouldnt support meta developments that are causing the game to become higher variance (which you kinda agreed with, not sure if you changed your opinion on that)

 

[Amaranth]

This is what I completely disagree with, if anything it went up in viability since Cloyster most of the times either fires Blizzards or trys to Clamp you -> higher Cloy popularity
2) reflect chansey dropped in usage because it was replaced by sing chansey. So if you are running sing you probably will pick ice beam as your attacking move
3) reflect ice beam snorlax, you dont want to be stuck in a lax mirror without ice beam. I cant say if this is just bothering me but dropping ice beam on lax currently feels like puts you automatically in a losing matchup

Its high variance in the sense of that if you manage to freeze something the game becomes more of a dice roll later on but I elaborated on that earlier on here. Fishing for freeze is more free than ever also because some people did manage to spread the starmie+cloy+jolt team so much which is basically nails team but he just plays it with jynx or so. What you are trying to suggest is that Cloyster stops that freeze fishing which might be true but then you are a freeze fisher yourself because Cloyster contributes a lot to this strategy. Ill kind of agree that spreading para is better on paper if you can catch a tauros/snorlax but otherwise its not even really needed since you have enough tools to block the enemy from advancing through spreading para.

Man what are you on about, Cloyster is horrible at fishing freeze. It gets to click one (1) ice move before something with twave switches in and you are immediately forced out. Even sleeping Mie can force you out in a lot of cases because you don't want to give it free chances at waking. The presence of Cloyster at high levels of play is absolutely a net positive in diminishing freezes as it completely removes mono IB Snorlax from viability (Nails still runs it because he's a complete nutcase).

IB Chansey is a lot more frequent yes, can't disagree with that, but it still wants to run TWave in its last slot and it's still easily better to click that in a lot of cases than to just fish as the opponent puts pressure on you. As for IB Lax, I genuinely don't remember the last time I ran it and I'm winning plenty of games, so maybe you should reconsider your teambuilding - a set that's fully useless vs both Cloy and Gengar can't be that good. It only works when you're facing neither, but my meta read is that they're both really fucking good and should be even more popular than they already are, so yea. You don't need to win the Lax mirror nearly as much if you have better Lax checks ready.

You also demonstrate here that you don't know what you're talking about when you compare standard MieCloyJolt to the Nails team. Look at how the Nails team actually plays:

vs Serpi (SPL XII) - quick Mie wake allows Serpi to stop the Lax from sweeping, game was over otherwise
vs Kiichikos (SPL XII) - Snorlax was going to PP stall Starmie and clean up the rest, but it gets some nasty FPs and a crit
vs SadisticNarwhal (SPL XII) - perhaps one of the most instructive games in this list, Nails engages in a freeze war knowing that if he loses it he can almost guarantee to get his own in return with the Lax set. Proceeds to drain a ton of Chansey PP + land minor chip on frozen/sleeping targets + land heavy chip on Exeggutor before going down.
vs spies (SPL XII) - Lax forces a freeze on Slowbro and after bro gets sacked Chansey forces a freeze war (which it wins) against the oh-so-irreplaceable IB Snorlax
vs HML am (SPL XI)
vs MetalGro$$ (SPL X)
vs Sceptross (SPL X) - it's the Omastar game, you should at least already know this one, but just for posterity I'm including it. Do notice how the freeze on Snorlax actually turns out to be undesirable - if Lax was just forced to Rest for a sec and Nails had the option to keep freeze clause open to hit frz on Chansey or Omastar, that would've led to easy cleanup by Starmie or Tauros respectively
vs FOMG (SPL X) - another textbook example of forced freeze, FOMG literally has no options but to sit there and wait for it to land
vs FOMG (SPL X), part 2 - this is less an example of how the team forces freezes and more of an example of how the team is absolutely toothless into Cloyster
vs Beds (SPL X) - another cloyster, another game where lax is a literal sack
vs kingler12345 (SPL X) - lax does nothing here but this game is really funny, consider this your entertainment break from rby class
vs kingler12345 (SPL X), part 2 - another instructive game, if you use boomlax to try and stop the freeze from coming you can easily run out of weapons to stop chansey from icebeaming
vs BHARATH_THEBEST (SPL X) - Nails gets his Jynx brutalized by double-edge eggy, and yet is still in a commanding position until his Lax refuses to freeze chansey even after 11 shots at it
bonus footage:
me vs SMB (SPL XI)
me vs HML am (SPL XI)
me vs Troller (SPL X) - pretty much the entire game relies on a relatively forced freeze war

I'll let you do the math on the average of freezes per game in games where this team shows up, but I'm pretty sure it's way way higher than the average in MieCloyJolt games

Its not thaat bad okay. It used to be better in my opinion though. Meta developments are a good sight but I wouldnt support meta developments that are causing the game to become higher variance (which you kinda agreed with, not sure if you changed your opinion on that)

Any meta developments are good because it means we are getting stronger and the tier is progressing, if it brings on higher variance so be it (to a certain limit ofc, if we find some strategy that beats everything else and the mirror is always decided by RNG then obviously that's toxic)

 

[dice]

I find that Confuse Ray + HB is easily the most effective Lapras set. I'm not sure it provides enough to a team without 4 moves. Whereas Cloyster has more 'free' turns against Snorlax/Tauros and general utility with Explosion, Lapras can't even Rest loop against Thunderbolt Chansey and lacks much potency with one free turn before its forced back into the cycle--doesn't seem like a great Rest user to me.

 

[Ortheore]

I think Sing Lap can work, it's just dependent on meta conditions... and also good predictions. Like even if you expect Lap to have Sing, if you're trying to block sleep with Star or Zam or something you basically have no good options, since Lap can seriously threaten those two if it correctly anticipates the switch. Of course, that scenario is not particularly reflective of the current environment which is far more hostile to Sing Lap, so yeah it kinda sucks. Also even when Sing was not shit, you wouldn't ever consider it your main sleeper imo.

I find that Confuse Ray + HB is easily the most effective Lapras set. I'm not sure it provides enough to a team without 4 moves. Whereas Cloyster has more 'free' turns against Snorlax/Tauros and general utility with Explosion, Lapras can't even Rest loop against Thunderbolt Chansey and lacks much potency with one free turn before its forced back into the cycle--doesn't seem like a great Rest user to me.

I don't think Rest looping against Tbolt Chans is that big a deal, given that literally every other Chansey variant gives Rest Lap free turns to heal/wake. Like it's such a buzzkill to whittle down Lapras, only for it to heal up for free because you tried to make use of your Chansey. I also somewhat disagree with the lacking potency for its one free turn point in that I don't think it's universally valid. I'm not disputing that there will be a significant portion of scenarios where this holds true, but there are still a large number of scenarios where its power/coverage mean that it's able to deal significant damage, or where you can simply get more than 1 free turn, especially late game once Chansey's dead and/or para is everywhere. Basically I think Rest is probably its best least terrible 4th option, though I won't deny that it lives in the shadows of Cloyster atm.

Also what value do you see in CRay? I've long considered it to be thoroughly unviable

 

[Amaranth]

The big problem with Rest Lapras is that it doesn't really switch in on anything happily. Cloyster is happy to hard switch into Lax, Jolteon is happy to hard switch into Zapdos or recovering Starmie or Chansey. When they get forced out after resting, they have ways to come back in relatively unscathed and finish waking up. Lapras is just not bulky enough to eat Body Slams like they're nothing, and even running Reflect doesn't help this very much because the opponent will still force you out with an electric move and it's not going to be switching into body slams while sleeping after that. Waking up Lapras is only slightly easier than waking up Jynx, and we know how impossible that is when you're not playing into mono IB Chansey.

For that reason Lapras is essentially recoveryless, with no Explosion button to bail him out, and you need to have some very elite qualities to be playable if you're both recoveryless and boomless. You need to be an insanely strong offensive presence (Tauros/Zapdos/Rhydon/even Articuno) and Lapras just doesn't have that sort of threat on teams in a lot of scenarios, sure you can get there with HB and a lot of setup occasionally but it's a bit too unreliable to be good. He was significantly more threatening when people tried to sleep block with Mie/Zam because he can muscle through them, now that they're sleep blocking with Chansey he's very often just lame

 

[Hipmonlee]

I think rest Lapras made a lot more sense when Chansey was most commonly using seismic toss. The problem at the moment is the main thing you can rest on is mono-ice chansey, except you never need to rest against a pokemon that can't KO you before running out of PP without like, 10 crits or something.

The fact that confuse ray's damage is nerfed these days is pretty bad for lapras too. But, it still can be useful for distribution. Lapras as something that comes into icebeams, fires a confuse ray and eases the switch to something with more attacking presence is probably its best use at the moment. Aside from blanking mono ice chansey, which you get no matter what set you run.

 

[gastlies]

Freeze is a stronger status effect, but Moltres spreads burns at a much higher frequency. Tauros and Snorlax are 2HKO'd and 3HKO'd respectively and neither of them will appreciate a burn. Rhydon can't even switch in safely, Fire Blast does around 30% and burn cripples it.

Yeah while this is true, you need to think of what mons are affected by a burn vs a freeze. Apart from the 3 mons you mentioned, there aren't really any other mons that are severely crippled by a burn. Sure mons like Gar and Egg don't like their booms being nerfed, and Zapdos doesn't like having it's Drill peck weakened, but they can still function when burned. Also you'll probably think the damage is nice, but remember it's only 1/16 in RBY. In addition, a burned mon becomes immune to other status, meaning it can sometimes be a good thing to be burned for some mons like Chansey and Mie.

Compare that to Freeze now. Although Freeze is 3 times less likely, the consequences are much more severe. In addition, unlike Burn. No mon likes being Frozen, apart from of course the Ice types, which I'll get to later. This means that 11 of the 13 mons that are ranked OU suffer from Blizzard, while only 3 mons are severely crippled from Burn. Even Snorlax isn't that bad since most sets carry rest, meaning it can just rest the burn away.

While talking about Freeze, let's not forget that you have to be careful you don't accidentally thaw something. If a Moltres player gets a freeze, they have to be extra careful when using it since their opponent might switch in their frozen mon. I know Fire Spin doesn't thaw, but as you said, fire spin isn't Moltres's main move. You want to try to nuke your opponent with fire blasts, and freezing a mon puts Moltres at a halt due to potentially thawing it out.

One of the most important calcs in favor of Moltres over Articuno:
Articuno Blizzard vs. Cloyster: 41-49 (13.5 - 16.1%) -- possible 7HKO
Moltres Fire Blast vs. Cloyster: 168-198 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Articuno's Double-Edge does more due to Blizzard being quad resisted, but it will never break Cloyster even with 3 crits in a row.

This is a fair argument. Especially with Cloyster's uptick in usage, it does hard wall Articuno, while Moltres can blast right through it (no pun intended). However, that is the only OU mon that Moltres has a better Matchup against Articuno in. You may be thinking of Jynx, but Jynx outspeeds it and 2HKOs it with Blizzard, meaning it can't switch in. That also brings up my next argument:

Defense
So I just talked about how offensively, Moltres isn't as far ahead of Articuno as you might think. However, defensively, Articuno has a huge advantage over Moltres. First of all, 10 extra base points in Defense isn't a lot, but it is something. The main advantage Articuno has is it's Typing. Unlike Moltres, it's Neutral to Ice and Water. Having an Ice Neutrality is huge in RBY. Take something like Mono IB Chansey for example.

Chansey Ice Beam vs. Articuno: 61-72 (15.9 - 18.7%) -- possible 6HKO
Chansey Ice Beam vs. Moltres: 122-144 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 92.1% chance to 3HKO

As you can see, Articuno can just use rest and freeze fish against Chansey, while Moltres can't rest loop and... what can it do against Chansey? Burning it doesn't do a whole lot, actually making it immune to sleep and freeze. What about PsyBlizz Mie?

Starmie Blizzard vs. Moltres: 148-174 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Starmie Psychic vs. Articuno: 84-99 (21.9 - 25.8%) -- 1.9% chance to 4HKO

Again, Articuno can rest loop and Freeze Fish Mie, while Moltres again does nothing, and takes way more damage from Mie's attacks.

Articuno does have upsides but I think Moltres' traits outweigh what Articuno can bring, especially when one of the current metagame Pokemon, Cloyster, hard walls the former.

I agree that Art is walled by Cloyster, but again, that's like the only advantageous Matchup Molt has. Having a hard counter doesn't make something unviable, take Zapdos for example, it's hard-walled by Don but it's still 7th on the current VR. Speaking of Don, you mentioned that Molt has a 30% burn chance. Assuming Don switches in to Molt, it has a 45% chance to be burned after 2 fire blasts. That might seem good but don't forget that Art just outright kills it with Blizzard. I will give Moltres the edge on Stats, since that 15 extra base attack is useful, but in RBY, Ice is just a way better typing than Fire, both offensively and defensively. If fire resisted Ice in RBY, I could see arguments for Moltres, but where it stands, Articuno is the superior bird.

 

[Amaranth]

I believe Moltres is being very underrated and is better than Articuno. [cut]

As one of the biggest Articuno enthusiasts around, its main draw is synergizing with Zapdos in a way that covers almost every match up possible. If you run Zap+Cuno you're running a Zapdos team that still overruns Rhydon teams if played properly; that trait is the main reason to play Articuno and it is something Moltres cannot provide.

Standalone you are definitely correct, Moltres's matchups aren't particularly worse (pretty much trades getting walled by Cloyster with getting walled by Rhydon) and the higher attack + ability to climb out of bad situations with FS and burn chances are really notable upsides, but it's a 6v6 and you have to factor in how the pokemon synergizes with the other mons you can bring, and not being able to be played alongside Zapdos due to the threat of Rhydon is a really huge reason for Moltres being uncommon.

Also a smaller but still quite important thing, Moltres is fairly likely to die to Tauros slam crit -> HB, while Articuno is fairly likely to live. The extra 10 defense isn't worthless and we all know how good you are vs Tauros is a key element in determining viability in this tier. Not that Moltres is bad vs Tauros, far from it, but Articuno is so dominant that you could maybe even hard switch it on a Body Slam from full if you're very desperate, and you can definitely stomach a crit or your own Blizzard missing in the 1v1 a lot better than Moltres can handle the same sort of luck.

I really see Articuno as a very specific mon that you can use to enable Zapdos and not much more than that, I've tried using it standalone before and it's decent but hard to justify. Moltres is slightly better standalone, but still hard to justify, and doesn't synergize that well with any of the top mons.

 

[Ortheore]

Sorry if I'm being pedantic, but Rest Lap benefits from mono-IB Chans in the sense that it's a free opening to do whatever the hell it wants, but more specifically using Rest and subsequently waking. It's not really damage from opposing Chansey that's the issue, most of the damage is probably coming from random BSlams/EQs. And honestly I think having free turns to heal/wake is a huge deal for Rest Lap, because although I disagree with the extent to which Amaranth has characterised waking Lap as difficult, it's definitely still an extremely valid concern, since otherwise you're probably depending on para support or something

 

[PokeTrainer16]

Am I the only one who feels like teams are preparing more and more for Sing Chansey and it isn't as good as it used to be? It loses a coverage move and mono-attacking leaves you walled either by any paralyzed mon (if IB) or by opposing Chansey (if ST).

 

[pac]

pretty much trades getting walled by Cloyster with getting walled by Rhydon

While Rhydon certainly does better versus Moltres than Articuno, its not completely 1 to 1 since Moltres can pivot out/chip with Fire Spin, Rhydon hates Burn, and also just deals more damage to Rhydon than Art does to Cloy.

Moltres Fire Blast vs. Rhydon: 119-141 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 1.7% chance to 3HKO
Articuno Double-Edge vs. Cloyster: 43-51 (14.1 - 16.8%) -- possible 6HKO

burned Rhydon Rock Slide vs. Moltres: 214-252 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(funny thing: if Rhydon switches in on Molt FBlast and gets burned, its quite possible for it to then lose the 1v1)

Still think Moltres is worse than Art, just with higher peaks. Slot machine chicken. Thought stuff was worth pointing out tho.

 

[spies]

Some metagame takes:

A very broken mon. Its ability to 1vs1 every other OU mon (except maybe Slowbro) is an unmatched trait. Better than Exeggutor? Sure.

Turn 1 TWave: viable. Way too risky to do it if you don't know the matchup or opponent's tendencies. If they have Sing Chansey + double Lax check (Lax + Cloyster or Gengar) you won't ever get to make progress. Do it if you have a plan: double amnesia, monolax (if they aren't Gengar users), boom spam, etc.

An oddly unexplored mon. Not so much in movesets but in how to actually play it. If you are Twaving T1 Egg will be backup to control Snorlax or a setup mon. You need to be spot on with your prediction though. If you somehow kill the paraed Chans, Backegg becomes broken. Double sleepers + explosion teams seem strong on paper but may not be able to perform consistently, need more testing.

Try sleepsacking Singchans if you already got your sleep, usually it is better to keep Alakazam/Starmie awake. Boltbeam is a very strong mon, maybe the best use of Egg/Jynx is freeing Chansey to be Boltbeam.

A big mon to achieve midgame balance and a lategame wincon.

basically a matchup fish, but a good one. Cloy+Don is the biggest fish as it matches up favorably with both Zap and Don builds.

 

[pac]

Since weirdos on Low Ladder love to continue using Confuse Ray for some ungodly reason, I made an easy to read resource to help you calculate Confusion dmg.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZTEoMtq1ZxuHyBcyKQL05SBQnWpBElqPVx0PxpH3MJE/edit?usp=sharing

There's a page for each Confuse Ray learner, as well as Supersonic Aerodactyl.

Each page looks something like this, calculating the dmg for a Pokemon that has min ATK dvs or a Pokemon that has Max ATK dvs. Easily downloadable for easy pull-up on a phone and the like. Its a cheat sheet of sorts!

 

[Party B0y]

I think it would be constructive to review the ban on moves 'dig' and 'fly' in Gen 1.

The justification for banning these moves is that Pokémon can become invincible if they're paralysed during the first phase of those moves (when the Pokémon is in the air/underground).

A solution would be to prevent players from choosing a move other than dig/fly until the Pokémon is no longer invincible/paralysed by greying out the other buttons. This wouldn't require a 'mod' as the rule could be applied to games played on a cartridge.

Another argument is that no-one wants to use Dig/Fly so we don't need to unban them. In addition to being patronising, this argument doesn't take into account that dig/fly provide a novel way to avoid damage from explosion/self-destruct and provide some UU Pokémon with additional coverage.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on this topic. Do you think these moves should be banned/unbanned and why?

 

[Serpi]

I think such a thing (restricting which moves the player can choose in specific situations by rule) is almost unprecedented? You could make the argument that sleep clause works the same way though - ingame it's applied by not clicking the sleep move, while on sim it's basically part of the game mechanics. But it's a cool idea, idk if this was brought up before.

 

[gastlies]

It looks like the dig/fly glitch isn't implemented on showdown (I just tested it, only with fly tho), but even if it was, that change wouldn't work. The problem is that if you get full para'd while flying, the next time you click fly, it requires and consumes PP. Meaning if you click fly with 1 PP left, then get full para'd, you have 0 PP the next turn, meaning it's physically impossible to click fly again, thus resulting in you remaining invincible forever. (Not true)

Edit: Just tested dig, that isn't implemented either
Replay

 

[Serpi]

Not exactly, in-game and during the period before sleep clause was made a mod the rule was if you sleep a second Pokemon you lose. This rule is much better then outright barring me from using sleep moves because in-game if I risk using Sleep Powder when I already slept something and it doesn't hit anything, you wouldn't say that I used a sleep move and that I lost. The risk-reward is skewed in favor of not clicking sleep moves, but it's not a hard clause that stops me from it.

Yeah, you're technically right. Even still, new Dig/Fly rules could be implemented the same way in-game aka if you successfully use a move other than Dig/Fly while invincible, you lose - just like successfully sleeping a mon. The import bit is that it's a rule you could follow in-game which sets the basis for implementing the clause on Showdown, just like with sleep clause. The 1 PP problem could be addressed in a similar way - in-game, you're simply risking to lose the whole game if you click Dig/Fly while paralyzed at 1 PP, which sets the basis to implement a comparable solution on sim. Tbh idk what that would have to be like, I guess you can reduce the PP of the moves by 1 to simulate the last one not being clickable lol? It's tough to find a correct solution for this absurd problem

 

[Hipmonlee]

It looks like the dig/fly glitch isn't implemented on showdown (I just tested it, only with fly tho), but even if it was, that change wouldn't work. The problem is that if you get full para'd while flying, the next time you click fly, it requires and consumes PP. Meaning if you click fly with 1 PP left, then get full para'd, you have 0 PP the next turn, meaning it's physically impossible to click fly again, thus resulting in you remaining invincible forever.

Edit: Just tested dig, that isn't implemented either
Replay

My understanding is that selecting dig/fly while in the invulnerable state does not consume PP. Have you tested this on cart?

 

[Ortheore]

Hi, I think that a theoretical Dig/Fly Clause that requires the use of Dig/Fly if invulnerability is triggered is a legitimate option, but I nonetheless think that a ban is preferable in this case. The reason is that most of our rulesets function at the teambuilder in the form of bans, and they're also applied consistently (rather than situationally), making them simple to communicate and understand.

A Dig/Fly clause I think is sub-optimal because it only applies in very specific situations and is only encountered mid-match rather than in the teambuilder. This means that communicating this very specific rule would likely be a problem, and it's the kind of thing that would cause frustration and confusion since I would assume a significant portion of people using these moves might get caught out whereby these moves are limited in unexpected ways due to rules that we've implemented.

That's not to say that mid-match restrictions shouldn't be considered at all, just that I think it needs to be worth it. For instance a cart-accurate sleep clause would function similarly, while the best solution to thaw desyncs is to implement a rule saying that you can't thaw a frozen pokemon unless it wasn't in play at the start of the turn (i.e. it switched in). These would be worthwhile implementations of a mid-match restriction*, since the most likely alternatives would be to ban an entire status effect and practically ban an entire type, which is incredibly egregious, making a mid-match restriction worthy of consideration. Dig/Fly on the other hand, I just don't think are worth implementing such a rule. These moves obviously see barely any use, and regardless of their competitive viability, the scope of these bans just isn't comparable to the examples I just mentioned- it really is more analogous to OHKO and evasion.

That said, if someone has any ideas for replicating sleep clause or resolving thaw desyncs that don't involve mid-match restrictions, excessive bans or some atrocity of a mod, that'd be super cool and I'd love to hear about it

*Technically the mid-match restrictions could alternatively be implemented in the form of a DQ condition with an appropriate warning. I used to favour restrictions rather than DQs, but that's no longer the case. I think restricting options to avoid DQs isn't an accurate representation of how you'd play on cart, and is instead an instance of adopting rules to maintain our simulator experience, rather than having the simulator represent cartridge play.

 

[Party B0y]

I think such a thing (restricting which moves the player can choose in specific situations by rule) is almost unprecedented? You could make the argument that sleep clause works the same way though - ingame it's applied by not clicking the sleep move, while on sim it's basically part of the game mechanics. But it's a cool idea, idk if this was brought up before.

I was thinking it could work the way wrap works i.e. just grey out the other buttons. It's not my idea, Beelzemon 2003 came up with something similar in 2019: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/semi-invincibility-clause.3650376/

would any viable mon use dig/fly?

I'd mostly use it to avoid explosion, but there are definitely mons who could benefit from it:

• Raichu can use fly on Egg when it switches in for more damage than seismic toss
• Dig give Arcanine, Golduck, Parasect, Raticate, Ninetales and Primape more coverage (they don't learn Earthquake)

A Dig/Fly clause I think is sub-optimal because it only applies in very specific situations and is only encountered mid-match rather than in the teambuilder. This means that communicating this very specific rule would likely be a problem, and it's the kind of thing that would cause frustration and confusion since I would assume a significant portion of people using these moves might get caught out whereby these moves are limited in unexpected ways due to rules that we've implemented.

RBY is full of weird rules/glitches. How many new players are "caught out" allowing wrap to roll over to 64pp? Or get instantly put to sleep because they used hyper beam? Or...recovery failures. I don't think greying out some buttons is going to be any more confusing for players than all the other RBY craziness (which isn't explained in the teambuilder and requires extensive research to understand).

Dig/Fly on the other hand, I just don't think are worth implementing such a rule.

I think this is what it boils down to, and I disagree that it's not worth it.

It looks like the dig/fly glitch isn't implemented on showdown

Maybe a more simple solution would be to just remove the glitch, the way counter is modded? I appreciate that a lot of people want an accurate simulation, but with all the clauses etc. it's hardly accurate anyway.

 

[Ortheore]

RBY is full of weird rules/glitches. How many new players are "caught out" allowing wrap to roll over to 64pp? Or get instantly put to sleep because they used hyper beam? Or...recovery failures. I don't think greying out some buttons is going to be any more confusing for players than all the other RBY craziness (which isn't explained in the teambuilder and requires extensive research to understand).

Hi, so I have a couple thoughts regarding this. Firstly, just because RBY has many intricacies and mechanics that behave strangely, doesn't mean we should just say "stuff it, let's add more". Just because the game has complex and unintuitive mechanics, does not mean we shouldn't seek to make things as simple and readily understandable where possible.

The second thought I had is that mechanical complexity is not remotely the same as complexity arising from the rules we create. When players click find battle for RBY OU, they know that they are playing a simulation of a game that is riddled with glitches, and we can say that it's largely up to them to educate themselves as to how the game works. By contrast, forcing players to swap out or use Dig/Fly again after triggering the glitch is a rule that we've implemented that doesn't exist on cartridge. Its existence is our responsibility. This means that we've created a mechanic that simply doesn't exist in the original game, so for someone seeking to play RBY, they can reasonably assume that they wouldn't have to encounter these restrictions, and when they do it will be especially egregious. I think that when we implement our own rules we have a duty to make them as clear, simple and concise as is possible, since we ultimately have a duty to explain those rules to anyone looking to play.

Lastly, I would say that picking these moves to dodge boom is beyond esoteric and I would argue a waste of a moveslot (it's a cool idea too, just not worth it in practice imo). Additional coverage also means little if it never actually hits a target that is substantially harmed by it, which one would expect to be the case the majority of the time given their multi-turn nature. I simply don't see the examples you list as anything but ultra-niche theorymon that sees no practical value. In order to justify implementing a clunky rule like this, it should only be done to preserve elements that are so large in scope and fundamentally intrinsic to competitive play that an alternative of banning those elements should be absurd. Dig and Fly don't come remotely close to that standard given their lack of any substantial use and general lack of viability. Sorry to rag on your ideas for using these moves btw, I actually think using it to circumvent boom is quite creative and something I hadn't previously considered, I just don't think it's enough to warrant use and when niche stuff is used to argue against an optimal solution (imo), that really bothers me

I would also once again like to thank smogon staff for fucking up the Counter dilemma, I really do enjoy hearing people say "Well there's so many mods anyway, who cares if we add more?". A true slippery slope indeed!
edit @below: Community isn't the word I'd use given how they screwed with the voter pool. Questionable whether it should've ideally been put to a vote as well, but there was so much dithering on the issue that it was probably necessary for anything to happen

 

[Hipmonlee]

I would also once again like to thank smogon staff for fucking up the Counter dilemma, I really do enjoy hearing people say "Well there's so many mods anyway, who cares if we add more?". A true slippery slope indeed!

Community voted how it voted dude... Not much that staff can do to magic that away.

Also, in terms of the competitive value of Dig and Fly, in NU they are extremely relevant moves. A lot of B tier mons learn them and it might be enough to push them up into A.

And for the complexity of enforcement, the sim would enforce them. It would only be hairy for people doing actual cart battles. And it would be fairly hairy for them, but one upside is that it's not all that likely that they will get into this situation. So I have kinda warmed to the idea a bit, but I am still pretty ambivalent about it.