PU Council Updates

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Hi! This thread will exist to give us a spot to post council updates as we would like to have somewhere easy to find that makes it easy to see the council activity history.

With that in mind, the main point I want to share is that we'll be holding a council vote this Sunday on a number of Pokemon that we deem problematic enough to be considered for a quickban. I'm briefly going to run through each one of these and give our reasoning as to why we're considering them for the current slate. Just a reminder though, this is still a vote and no Pokemon have been banned yet. For any ban to pass we need at least a 2/3rds majority, or 5 out of 7 votes in the case of our 7 person council.

Oricorio-Pa'u, much like Baille earlier in the gen, sets itself apart from the other Quiver Dance threats mainly by its main stab Revelation Dance, which allows it to change its stab typing when it undergoes a tera change. The big issue with Pa'u is the unpredictability of its tera type and as a result the variety of checks to it a team must run just to be able to answer every option. This replay is a good example of the issues Pa'u presents, as Chloe is very well prepped for the more common ground tera type, but loses on the spot because it was fighting instead.

It is however very reliant on Tera which lets it down a bit and can constrict you in gameplay as you want to save your Tera for Pa'u usually in games.

Haunter has come to our attention more and more as people have begun to use different sets than just choice locked and Nasty Plot. Haunter has a huge range of support moves this generation in Encore, Substitute, Wisp, Disable and of course, Tera. This allows for it to tailor its sets to beat its defensive answers, which is particularly problematic when Skuntank is the only true answer it has. We think the set diversity of Haunter, and the near necessity of Skuntank on teams because of it, may make it problematic.

However it does struggle in terms of bulk and can be tricky to bring in some games as a result, which can be damaging when it wants to get in multiple times a game to really put pressure on teams. The raw damage output of non choice locked sets can also be disappointing at times, forcing it to be careful about when it comes in as it can present opposing teams with opportunities to trade directly into it when it doesn't do enough damage.

Magneton stands out for its bulky Eviolite set, who's statistic profile is far greater than that of the rest of the tier, allowing it to come in very easily. Combine that with a very potent both offensive and defensive typing, two great abilities in Analytic and Magnet Pull and the ability to pressure Ground-types even more this gen with Tera and it can be considered too difficult to defensively handle. Here's a replay showing that, as Sensei Axew brings a Camerupt and a defensive Ampharos, yet Magneton is still able to have its way, getting in multiple times on Quaxwell and being able to freely Volt Switch despite the presence of a Ground-type thanks to Tera Water.

The notable drawbacks though are that its middling speed tier and lack of recovery means it can be pressured in a lot of games, limiting it to one or two chances to come it. Its common weaknesses also force it to rely on Tera to a degree.

:lilligant: :vivillon: :houndoom:
These are some other Pokemon that we are keeping an eye on and are aware that many people see issues with, but as of right now the council doesn't deem any of them to be problematic and as such we will be holding them off of this slate. However we're definitely aware of them and won't rule out future action for them.

Quiver Dance
The last thing I want to touch on is Quiver Dance as a move. There have been more and more calls to ban Quiver Dance as a move so we feel its important we address this. The big hurdle in this proposal is that Smogon's tiering framework heavily favours banning Pokemon over moves. As such, if we were to get a Quiver Dance ban approved, we would need to show that every Pokemon that gains access to the move is broken, and even if we can do that, we would need to still get such a ban approved by Smogon's tiering section, which isn't a guarantee. As of right now, we feel we can't justifiably prove that for Lilligant and Vivillon so we're holding off on making a push for it.

If Pa'u does end up getting banned and the remaining Quiver Dance Pokemon do end up being broken, we do intend on exploring this option however. As it happens, council in general would prefer to go down a Quiver Dance ban route if possible, but we simply don't feel we currently have the justification needed to make it happen. We'll revisit the topic at a later date anyway but I mainly wanted to communicate that we're aware of it and explain why we haven't done anything.


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As the above post stated, we held a vote on whether the Pokemon of Haunter, Magneton & Oricorio-Pa'u were balanced in the metagame; or whether they warranted a quickban. Due to xaxgb/stresh not having too much playtime under his belt, we included rien and Toy Time King as rotational council members for this vote in his place. A reminder, in SV: Pokemon require a majority of at least 66% ban (6/8 here) in order to be removed from the tier. Here are the results:

(DNB = Do Not Ban)

As a result, Oricorio-Pa'u has been banned from SV PU.

Tagging Kris & Marty to implement this. Thank you so much!!


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It's been a while since we last looked at things and now that drops have happened and we have a good idea of what the tier is going to look like for the next little while we're planning on holding another voting slate. The vote will be tomorrow night, and once again will require at least 2/3rds of what we expect to be a 7-person voting group for any ban to go through. With that in mind let's look at the culprits!

Vivillon stood out as a potential issue as soon as Pa'u got banned, as Pa'u provided both the best counterplay in the tier to Viv, while also giving it competition for a place on a team, which led to Viv not being used all that often. Now, with a general lack of defensive counterplay when an offensive Tera is considered, Viv can be a nightmare for teams to handle and that's amplified by its access to an accurate Sleep Powder, meaning it will usually at the very least cripple a team if it's not going to outright sweep. Additionally, the 30% confusion chance of Hurricane means it can sometimes just power through answers with luck, due to it usually only needing one confusion to be successful.

It lacks recovery though and is somewhat weak unboosted, while also sitting just behind the 95 Speed tier that a lot of the tier's fast threats occupy, making it somewhat difficult for it to impact games when it's not setting up. It's also frail and as a result is susceptible to the priority options of the tier, like Basculin and Quaxwell's Aqua Jet and Cacturne and Skuntank's Sucker Punch.

Magneton finds itself on the slate once again for the same reason as last time, that being its bulky Eviolite set. To see a more detailed explanation you can check the previous update.

Basculin finds itself on the slate due to its breaking power and set versatility. Its raw power combined with a fantastic speed tier makes it so that defensive answers are very limited, and this gets narrowed even further when you have to guess which set it is. It can reasonably run physical Reckless, Adaptability and Rock Head sets, as well as a special Adaptability set, while also being a fantastic scarfer. This can make the guessing games somewhat challenging, although generally the answers to these sets will be the same anyway, with the likes of Quaxwell and Gogoat being the main stoppers.

Basculin does find itself susceptible to hazards though and can have trouble getting in multiple times a game as a result, especially when its poor bulk is considered alongside this. It often serves the role of a heavy hitter that you can only really use once which can make it manageable in games.

Misdreavus isn't here for how threatening it usually is in games, but rather for what it enables in games as a bulky ghost with levitate. It has become clear these past few weeks that hazard stack is a dominant playstyle right now and this is a team composition that mainly exists due to how effective Misdreavus is as a spinblocker. Currently, the best (and only decent) hazard removal option in the tier is Quaxwell, which against a well-played Misdreavus, will never be afforded the opportunity to spin. As a result, hazard stacking builds have become rather oppressive recently and the council is considering taking action to help balance this with a potential Misdreavus ban.

That being said though, metagames tend to move in cycles and there's no saying that this isn't just another cycle that will cause teams to make use of more offensive Heavy Duty Boots users, with the aim of pressuring these more defensive teams while not worrying about the issues hazards present.


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The results of the above vote are in! We voted on Basculin, Magneton, Misdreavus, and Vivillon this time. termi and stresh haven't really been playing lately so they've sat this one out. We've added rien and KJ Corp as rotational council to vote in their place this time around. A reminder, in SV: Pokemon require a majority of at least 66% ban (5/7 here) in order to be removed from the tier. Here are the results.

As a result, Magneton has been banned from SV PU.

Tagging Kris & Marty. Thank you so much in advance.


We plan to hold a survey very soon to gauge meta opinions, and potentially hold a suspect test as a result of that survey so please stay tuned for that! Thank you everyone for continuing to play the metagame, and I look forward to seeing all your opinions as time progresses.

Below are the reasonings as to why people voted the way they did:

Not Banned - 1/7
Chloe: DNB - i'm really yet to see this do anything substantial despite being initially pretty scared of its potential impact. i'd love to see how its preferred sets develop as time goes on. feel like it struggles substantially in a meta plagued by gogoat, quaxwell, etc. doesn't stand out as an amazing offensive breaker to me despite all it has going for it. has to choose between adapt boosting damage to an acceptable level or rock head preventing it from dying two turns in. feels like it either does no damage or dies way too easily. i definitely do feel like i've had less than suitable exposure to other people using this pokemon, despite using it myself a substantial amount; i'd like to see how it is in the coming weeks.

gum: DNB - there's enough answers for it and have of all its sets have pretty noticeable flaws. it's obviously very good, but between mons like gogoat and quaxwell as well as random tera water / dragon mons I've found it to be pretty manageable. it's also very frail, so if it's slower or cant threaten an ohko it'll usually be forced out or crippled. adapt/reckless sets hit very hard but they also die rather fast, which is an issue in a metagame where hazards and skuntank are so common. rock head sets on the other hand kinda struggle with breaking unless u decide to preserve ur tera for it. special sets dont hit as hard and also have a weaker aqua jet. also I think it might be even easier to deal with if missy does end up banned, as that'd free up quaxwell more. overall a very welcome addition to the tier imo, it's a great offensive check to a lot of different mons that I thought were kinda annoying before but not quite broken (vivillion included!)

sensei axew: DNB - Basculin has been less than stellar for me personally. Although it can viably run 3 different abilities that all make it a powerful wallbreaker while being pretty fast for the current meta outspeeding Vivillon, Houndoom, and Haunter, its frailty+lack of coverage makes it very prediction reliant. It also heavily struggles with choosing its ability, going rock head makes wave crash relatively weak as Basculin's attacking stat is not that strong and going adaptability/reckless makes Basculin pretty much dead after dropping 1 or 2 attacks. Furthermore, although the water resists are not the greatest in the tier as of current, there are still a bunch of very viable ones such as Quaxwell, Cacturne, and Gogoat. Moreover, tera water is probably the most common tera type with pokemon such as Perrserker, Camerupt, and Magneton using it viably. When combining all of these factors, alongside the fact that Basculin's stats are pretty awful besides its speed, Basculin has not cemented itself as a banworthy mon for me as of currently.

Shaneghoul: DNB - While hard to answer to defensively, very common and good Pokemon like Gogoat and Quaxwell do a solid job at keeping it in check. Additionally, it can have trouble coming in multiple times due to its low bulk and the meta being dominated by spikes, meaning it usually has a hard time putting significant pressure on in a game.

Vulpix03: DNB - From my experience both against and with it, it hasn't felt banworthy yet. It hits incredibly hard but is often easy to wear down with hazards.

rien: BAN - incredibly stupid mon with an incredibly stupid speed tier that in a meta with almost no bulky waters simply has no reliable switch-ins. quax can eat a hit from band but is forced to roost while the opponent gets a free turn to bring in something like magneton and it gets 2hko'd by specs tera blast fighting, and lumineon and cacturne both die to head smash. strong priority is nice to have in the metagame for stuff like boosted viv but basc is just way too much for the meta's current power level to handle.

KJ Corp: DNB -
Pro stay: Offensive utility vs mons that you cant really switch into like houndoom and vivillon, especially if it has tera grounded. Outspeeding and 1 shotting without necessarily needing to scarf or play sucker punch guessing game, while also not feeling *too* fast. Hazard stacks with offensive skuntank or cacturn/scarf duck can usually reliably beat it, though they get nuked if the basculin player wins guessing games.

Pro ban: Offensively overwhelming for a tier that already has so much trouble reasonably covering every threatening meta relevant playstyle. Means of revenge killing can often be linear, or even checkmated by aqua jet, and rock head sets can surprisingly last longer than they should. Water type has been a fantastic STAB to spam as the main check people run is quaxwell, whom I don't consider a really great pokemon. I'd say the closest thing to it pre-shift was scarf golduck which was very deadly in its own right. But basculin can freely choose between more power and versatility without needing as much team support.

Personal Verdict: This is the hardest vote for me as it's been manageable with the styles of team I'm personally most comfortable with. It's a strain on the builder certainly, however I do think good teams should be prepared for the possibility of scarf golduck/rain which should make them sturdier against basculin. However its checks are a bit shakier than duck checks like gogoat that are genuinely great mons. I'm very 50/50 on this one, but I'll go with my personal experience and vote no ban, with hopes of a suspect test to feel it out more.

Banned - 5/7
Chloe: DNB - i still really don't think this pokemon is all that broken. my opinions have not shifted since the last shift where i voted dnb on this. it's a very good pivot, it's a soft steel that can switch into a bunch of random threats with eviolite. i appreciate its benefits a lot. sure it has great damage output, and loves clicking volt on everything, but have never thought this was a real issue personally. its tera types are mostly predictable, and rarely an issue for me. i have never found its magnet pull sets to be any good (what steels do we even have or use). have kind of accepted im in the minority on magneton, and will be fine if it goes, i just don't think it deserves to.

gum: BAN - it's impossible to reliably answer; eviolite sets in particular are momentum machines that can also make use of tera to get past the little answers they have, while also allowing it to 1v1 a huge amount of the tier if it desires to thanks to its bulk. other sets like specs and scarf are generally less good but have mus where they can sometimes just win. nothing really appreciates switching into its dual stabs + tera blast, and analytic makes it even scarier. imo part of the issue is also magnet pull - in a tier with barely any steel-types, magneton being able to trap all (just 3) of them very well while also being a threatening breaker regardless of whether or not there's a steel on the other side makes it uncompetitive to boot

sensei axew: BAN - Magneton is by far the most broken mon in the current PU metagame. All three of its sets, Specs, Scarf, and Bulky Eviolite, are completely warping in both the builder and the battlefield. Furthermore, it's above average stats, phenomenal abilities, and ability to severely abuse tera by rendering it basically unwallable with another stab of Water or Ground, make it completely broken and easily bannable.

Shaneghoul: BAN - I simply think Magneton is too difficult for the tier to handle defensively, and its great bulk with Eviolite means it can get in multiple times a game to pressure teams. The ground types of the tier are too limited to prevent it from freely Volt Switching on any switch in and the only reliable answer we have (Camerupt) gets blown away by tera.

Vulpix03: BAN - The variety of sets + ability to run different tera types makes this Mon too strong. Specs has no switch ins, especially if you nab the camerupt with tera water. Eviolite is stupidly bulky and scarf can be a surprise revenge killer. Simply too strong and unpredictable with tera.

rien: DNB - my thoughts on magneton haven't changed much since the last slate in which i also voted dnb, it's an excellent mon and one of the best momentum generators but tera is a very double-edged sword for it, it can bypass a lot of its checks with it but it's often forced to use it because so many of its checks can comfortably outspeed it (which means that even if it performs a successful tera, it often gets worn down to the point that it's easy to revenge kill) and it ends up losing a lot of its defensive value in the process by opening it up to mons like gogoat.

KJ Corp: BAN -
Pro stay: Being a good steel types offers teams so much utility I can't name it all but among others a multitude of useful resistances and an immunity which can really tie teams together and make them generally sturdier. As a defensive utility pokemon it's a great addition to the tier.

Pro ban: Surprisingly good speed tier and insane offensive power is very overwhelming for this tier. Nothing switches into this pokemon long term as it either nukes or volt switches out into another threat. A decent mag switch in is magneton itself but that creates a very awkward volt switch war. Magneton is also an insane abuser of tera blast. Being able to tera blast any would be checks and escape super effective fire type/ground moves. With eviolite it has immense bulk shrugging off many powerful hits and responds with absurdly outdamaging.

Personal Verdict: Unfortunately I think magneton has to go. Too little can come in, it's too bulky and too strong, and abuses tera in what I deem to be an unhealthy way.

Not Banned - 4/7
Chloe: BAN - i hate this thing's effect on our tier and i really hope it goes. absolutely destroys the potency of our singular removal option. it's responsible for teams being monotonous, and it restricts building an insane degree. the arguments for resulting to drakloak and sandygast once missy goes are silly to me. they're substantially worse, harder to fit mons. they're all much more easily impaired by your own hazards, they are all potentially overwhelmed a lot easier. teambuilding in this tier is an absolute chore thanks to this pokemon and i would very much appreciate it gone. if for some reason drakloak/sandygast were to rise up after this and do the exact same job (they won't), then we can look into this but i find misdreavus's impact on the builder currently to be unquestionably unhealthy. i've heard comparisons to doublade? if it were more like swsh doublade i'd be even more pro-ban but the issue with that comparison is that we actually had defoggers back then. misdreavus is so much more restricting in a metagame where our only viable removal option gets completely blocked.

gum: BAN - our removal is terrible and missy just makes it way harder to justify running quaxwell on certain teams. this just leads to the current metagame being a hazard fest and while idt that's an inherently bad thing, I think it's bad for the tier due to how much it restricts building simply by existing. if this does end up getting banned, I doubt defensive haunter and drakloak would get anymore near as much usage as missy currently does, and if they do then we can revisit this anyway. but yeah, imo its presence makes it harder to account for certain things and can force u into awkward structures

sensei axew: BAN - Misdreavus is completely unhealthy for the tier as it perma spinblocks the only viable removal option in the current tier, Quaxwell. With the recent addition of Vespiquen, the PU tier now has a total of 5 viable spikers that, if paired with Misdreavus, cannot be removed unless you are using a complete shitmon of a defogger like Fletchinder or Drifloon..? Therefore, you are basically limited to running Heavy-Duty Boots on almost every single mon which is a gigantic strain in the builder as it renders sets that would be viable, such as Scarf Houndoom, Band Sneasel, or even Leftovers Gogoat as practically useless as they will just get worn down with every hazard in the book. Not only this, but Misdreavus itself has way more use outside of perma spinblocking Quaxwell. It's Nasty Plot+Draining Kiss set with Tera Fairy is also almost unwallable and can easily sweep teams if it's very limited checks get weakened.

Shaneghoul: BAN - I wasn't super on board with a Misdreavus ban initially but the more I thought about it the more convinced I became. I think hazard stack teams have gotten to an unhealthy point in this meta, to where nearly all teams have converged to a Misdreavus hazard stacking build + 5 Boots users. I think as a ghost type Missy is just too bulky and too good at what it does and I think the metagame would look much better without it here.

Vulpix03: DNB - It's a spinblocker that is very good at its job but I don't find misdreavus to be unhealthy outside of that. I view it in a similar way to doublade in gen 8, but I think misdreavus overall is not as good and not as warping to the tier as doublade is. Yes it spinblockes, but outside of that it's not anywhere near broken.

rien: DNB - i simply don't think spikestack is this overwhelming archetype that requires missy (admittedly its very best enabler) to be removed. due to how easy it is to put boots on virtually any non-choiced fully evolved mon, as well as having a slew of very good levitate mons (missy, haunter, fantom), viable teams often end up with just 1-3 spikes weak mons (and one of them is usually skunk that helps with tspikes, which are currently more common than regular spikes). the lack of good removal options is simply not the bane of this metagame's existence and a lot of teams do really well without quaxwell. while bulky haunter and drakloak and even banette won't be quite as good as missy outside of merely spinblocking, they will still get heavy usage on spikestack teams and the issue with quax getting spinblocked for days will prevail. besides spikestack, missy is a genuinely good balanced mon that imo brings a lot of good variability to the tier and removing it would only make a lot of stupid mons more stupid and we'll be all the more miserable for it.

KJ Corp: DNB -
Pro stay: Great utility being able immune to 2 good offensive types, being able to tera steel or fairy can provide teams with the necessary tools to get some extra cushioning vs the plethora of threats. It's also quite passive and exploitable. Being free real estate for pokemon that don't care about the burn, houndoom in particular. Or just giving free turns in general.

Pro ban: Misdreavus enables the hazard stacking playstyle, which can feel very constricting as the only decent hazard removers aren't really great pokemon besides their ability to remove hazards.

Personal Verdict: I think misdreavus, while a great pokemon, isn't too much for the tier as its passivity can be exploited. Removing it from the tier wouldn't destroy hazard stacking strategies as there are still usable ghosts that block quaxwell long term. Albeit it would nerf the strategy. However I'm not convinced hazards in and of themselves are the end of the world. They're a way to force progress and this tier's stackers aren't super top tier anyway.

Not Banned - 3/7
Chloe: BAN - i am still of the opinion vivillon is stupid, an opinion i've held from before the last slate. i find it forcing me to run mons like vigoroth way too much, or forcing me to tera rock whatever random mon and hope it doesnt catch me with its own tera, or some absurdly stupid counterplay. its detrimental impact on the teambuilder is insane alone. this pokemon wins games for free way too often, its combination of sleep powder, quiver dance, 91% hurricane and offensive tera potential is absurd to me. i really dislike how it plays, and how powerful it is in the grand scheme of things. it feels like it offers nothing of value to the tier. i would very much appreciate it gone.

gum: DNB - I simply don't see it ever doing anything that I'd deem broken. I think I dislike it more in the builder, but even there I dont think it's as oppressive as it once was. it sits at an awkward speed tier and can sometimes struggle to find setup opportunities. it feels very reliant on sleep powder / tera blast at times which I think isn't really ideal. it can also lose to random tera mons as well; its poor bulk means u might end up with an useless slot if ever u get punished for clicking the wrong move or being too hasty vs like, tera rock/water gogoat. we also have more than enough offensive answers, with mons like pyroar, houndoom, dugtrio, and raichu all being able to pressure it well pre-setup, while it usually dies to priority users like sneasel and basculin after minor chip, and most of these (+ haunter) can run choice scarf

sensei axew: DNB - Ah, the Vanilluxe of SV PU. Vivillon is by no means broken in my opinion. Vivillon completely relies on Tera to be any kind of useful making it almost a dead slot if you are forced to tera a different Pokemon earlier in the game. Even after tera it's still easily checked defensively by a multitude of viable pokemon such as Rotom-Fan, Sliggoo, and Vigoroth while also being checked by Gogoat, Crabdominable, and Ampharos after a tera themselves. While I do understand Sleep Powder does put a strain on some of these pokemon being able to check Vivillon, it is not very hard to fit 2 or even 3 of these checks on a team, so even if one gets foddered to sleep there is always a back up. Also on that note, Ampharos and Crabdominable can reliably run sleep talk as well. Furthermore, Vivillon's frailty makes it extremely susceptible to being revenge killed pre and post tera. In fact, after Vivillon teras to its by far most common tera type in Ground, it generally becomes even weaker to being revenge killed as it assures common priority in the tier (Quaxwell, Basculin, Wugtrio Aqua Jet and Fraxure/Falinks First Impression) swiftly OHKOs it. Regardless of whether or not it teras, however, it's terrible bulk still makes it easily revenge killed by the aforementioned priority with minimal chip as well as the plethora of other priority in the tier such as Sneasel's Ice Shard, Squawk's Quick Attack, and the bazillion of Pokemon that use Sucker Punch. It's mediocore speed also makes it slower than very common scarf users after a Quiver Dance, notably Haunter, Raichu, Basculin, and Sawsbuck. While I do understand the strain Vivillon has in the builder, I think it's overall a healthy addition to the metagame as it encourages strategic teambuilding and, more importantly, is the best way to handle the Misdreavus hazard spam teams that are poisoning the tier.

Shaneghoul: BAN - Vivillon is the ban vote I feel least strongly about, but I still think the sweeping power it brings to the tier is unhealthy, especially with tera. My main problem with it is how uncompetitive it can feel to play against it when it gets favourable sleep turns. A one turn sleep Vivillon is a manageable Pokemon but oftentimes you can straight up lose games if you get a 2 or even 3 turn sleep. I think this dichotomy is very unhealthy and I believe the tier would be much better off without it.

Vulpix03: DNB - I've been 50/50 on this Mon. I think the addition of strong priority in basculin + alternative quiver dancers like masquerain has hurt vivillion just enough for me to vote do not ban, for now.

rien: DNB - vivillon can be very annoying to face if it gets every single move right and rng goes its way, but in so many matches it just ends up not doing a lot. it's really held back by its poor bulk, mediocre spa and lack of a usable secondary attack pre-tera. tera variability is another thing that didn't pan out despite post-pa'u predictions and we're seeing it heavily rely on tera ground, which has its fair share of very viable answers. while it has the easiest time setting up compared to the other qd mons in the tier, it simply doesn't have the means to snowball games like pau's bulk and recovery, lilli's sheer power or masq's expansive coverage allow them to. i'm aware that i'm likely in the minority opinion among the wide playerbase so i'd be down to hold a public suspect test for it in the near future.

KJ Corp: BAN -
Pro stay: Plays linear and can be revenged with strong priority or a faster scarfer, or beaten by gogoat. Sometimes a lot easier to handle in practice.

Pro ban: Vivillon offers almost nothing positive to the metagame, its sole purpose is to set up sweep. Its a pokemon you have to account for in the teambuilder even though it feels like it shouldn't be necessary with so much other roles that need to be filled and so many threats to check. Tera really puts it over the edge as tera ground or fighting kills a lot of its would be checks. It also haxes through games it shouldn't be winning with hurricane confusion and clutch sleep turns from its highly accurate powder. Quiver dance is one of the most absurd moves when paired with tera as well, and has been polarizing since volcarona in gen 5. It can dominate otherwise very good teams that try to check everything else in the meta.

Personal Verdict: I think this pokemon is unhealthy out of principle of what it does and has to offer the tier. It reduces player interaction with sleep, It preys on teambuilding necessities and has a restricted pool of true answers. It can be deadweight, but when it's not it truly threatens to win the game when given a chance. It's not beyond broken, but its effects are very negative, adding nothing but another hard to counter mon and making teambuilding harder.


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PU's 1st SV Tiering Survey

And as listed above here is our first survey of the gen! We'd love to hear your opinions on the Pokemon listed above, in addition to any other concerns you have about the state of the metagame. It will only take you about two minutes and you get to have your voice heard!


Please fill it out before Thursday 11:59PM EDT. Thank you in advance!


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Hello!! The survey results are in. Thank you to everyone who took the time out of their day to fill out our survey. We had 159 respondents which is an insane number. It's really great to see all your opinions on how we can better the metagame and I've made sure to read every single reply. I won't be writing too much as these graphs are mostly self-explanatory. Anyway, without further ado, here are the results.

Enjoyment & Competitiveness
This section usually doesn't have much to discuss but I will give a brief overview as we go through.


Overall a pretty healthy spread, glad to see the vast majority of the playerbase enjoys the tier. Almost 90% placing the tier in the upper half is very nice to see!


I always find this question to be a little ambiguous, so I might change the wording next time, but again a fairly positive spread.


Much more mixed and I can definitely see the logic behind this. Teambuilding can definitely feel a little monotonous right now, especially with the lack of removal, the presence of incredibly powerful breakers lacking substantial counterplay (namely Vivillon right now), and the lack of effective defensive Pokemon in general. I personally find myself struggling not to make my teams look similar sometimes and I know I'm not the only one to feel this way.

Individual Pokemon
Now we dive into the real MEAT of the poll, the Pokemon. Overall, no real surprises to me personally other than the sheer volume of votes something got. We'll get to that in due course!


Overall very very very even split for Basculin. Not enough support to really act upon it unless it were to become an insane menace overnight. Not a very surprising result to me.


Much more leaning do not support on Misdreavus which I definitely understand. Even if you agree with tiering action on Misdreavus, it can be hard to argue it's conventionally broken. More just a major inconvenience. Not a Pokemon many would think of as "broken", love or hate the mon.


This was the real standout to me. Vivillon at 71% supporting tiering action. That is such an insane number. I'm glad that people agree this Pokemon is insane. It's such a potent sweeper and one that I think is very clear cut in comparison to a Pokemon like Misdreavus.

We plan to vote on what action to take in the coming days. It's very clear that something has to be done when it comes to Vivillon, sooner rather than later.


We added this to the survey with no intent to act off of the results (we can't really do that effectively). We were interested to see what people thought though. Pleasantly surprised to see most people thinking it's fine; and only roughly an eighth thinking it's completely iredeemable. I have to admit I've personally come around on the mechanic a lot, even

Most other responses are "the abusers are more broken than the mechanic itself", which is a fair take but is pretty much identical voting wise to it being healthy.


  • Houndoom got 12 votes and was by far the main answer other than "Chloe" which got a ton (skype rolling eyes emoji). I'm surprised so many people thought of the same joke, but alas. I don't believe Houndoom is broken, I feel like the metagame has progressed substantially past the days we thought Houndoom was an overwhelming threat. It's definitely still a very strong breaker, and benefits off our lack of fire resists currently.
    • Pyroar got 3 votes for a similar reason, some people believe both special fires fit this criteria. I definitely see Houndoom as a more understandable concern, but neither really push themselves over the edge in my eyes.
  • Haunter got 5. A lot of this is people retaining their belief in its unhealthiness from the first slate. Someone mentioned Knock Off's scarcity making it an issue, another said that it's too versatile.
  • Crabominable, Lilligant, and Masquerain all got two votes.
  • Banette, Lycanroc-Midnight, Raichu, Rotom-Fan Squawkabilly, Vigoroth, Wugtrio all got one.
  • Three people suggested we should ban Quiver Dance; this is not a possibility currently. We would also require all its abusers to be broken to even attempt to make a case for it and Lilligant and Masquerain do not fit this criteria.

There was a lot of positive feedback here, a lot of gratitude for making the survey in the first place. I appreciated reading all the great comments.
  • One of the main points of contention at the moment is the lack of removal in the tier currently. Unfortunately this isn't something we can really do much about, and just have to wait until NU lets us have something. :(
  • There were a few people that told us we were too banhappy, a few others told us we were too afraid to ban things. I appreciate that we've been taking our time and ensuring things are broken, especially when we have no ongoing tours and can afford to.
  • The other response that stuck out to me was Heracross2.0 being very impressively clairvoyant and posting this four days before he was promoted:

Thank you everyone for responding to the survey! I appreciated seeing all the replies and people voicing their opinions. I look forward to proactive discussion following this, and using this data to better the metagame. Thank you again for responding and reading. Until next time!


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PU Leader
Taking into consideration the recent survey results which showed overwhleming support for tiering action, the council has decided to quickban Vivillon from SV PU. We expect this to be the last quickban relating to the early generation, however we won't rule out future quickbans on Pokemon dropping from NU.

Tagging Kris & Marty to implement, thanks!


is a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributor
PU Leader
The council will be voting on Sneasel-Hisui over the weekend, with a 2/3 majority required for a quickban to take place.

Sneasel-Hisui finds itself on the slate due to its incredible combination of speed, strong STABs, great typing, decent bulk with Eviolite and access to boosting moves in Swords Dance and Trailblaze. It can also very effectively use Tera to prevent revenge kill attempts, making it very hard to check either offensively or defensively.

We do not anticipate needing to vote on any of the other new Pokemon received through home or tier shifts.


is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
PU Leader
Hisuian Sneasel has since been voted on! Below are the votes by each council member. sensei axew hasn't been available lately, so it was only the six of us that got to vote this time around. His vote would not have changed the outcome however.


Sneasel-Hisui has been banned from SV PU.
Tagging Kris and Marty to implement this on Showdown. Thank you so much!!!

If you'd like to read the reasonings for each council member, you can do so here:
asa: BAN - Hisuian Sneasel lacks substantial counterplay, both offensively and defensively, while also being flexible enough to deal with many of its few reliable answers. Swords Dance makes the already nuts STAB combo hit even harder, and it has enough options in the last slot (Trailblaze to shaft what little outspeeds you, Night Slash or Shadow Claw to hit Misdreavus, even niche stuff like Substitute to further exploit free turns) to where playing around it feels too difficult without doing a lot of guesswork. Hisuian Sneasel also doesn’t struggle as much with setting up as its Johto counterpart thanks to Eviolite and its oddly good and useful defensive typing. Finally, it can viably run a couple of different Tera types: Fighting for the extra power, Dark or Ghost to boost Night Slash/Shadow Claw and turn the tables on stuff like Choice Scarf Indeedee-F or Zangoose, and Grass in tandem with Trailblaze for easier setup on Ground-types. All of these options are good and require different counterplay, and even a foe’s defensive Tera might not help if Sneasel-H is running the right Tera type and coverage. I also think Choice Band is a bit ridiculous, though it’s obviously not as consistent as SD. CB is pretty good at taking advantage of the switches Sneasel-H forces, though, having enough power to 2HKO most of the tier with some prediction. Getting to run an extra coverage or utility option like Tera Blast or Switcheroo is also huge, since this allows you to ruin some of the more specific answers to Sneasel-H, like Swalot and Mareanie.

Chloe: BAN - Sneasel-Hisui's immense power level at such a high speed point, in tandem with its insane coverage, access to Swords Dance and impressive bulk, make it a force to be wreckoned with. This Pokemon has everything going for it, the best ways to answer it are generally sacking a Pokemon and revenging it with Dugtrio or Scarf Indeedee-F; which is of course not good enough. Alternatively, it could force you to run Tera Poison and dedicate your tera to answering it, again, not good enough. Both its Swords Dance and Choice Band sets are too much for the tier to handle; lead to monotonous teambuilding defensively and are both improved tenfold by tera, allowing them to avoid certain revenge killers from forcing them out. This Pokemon is just beyond the power level of the others in PU and I don't believe we should keep it around any longer.

gum: BAN - the tier simply can't handle it; it's too fast for how strong it is and also isn't that frail with eviolite. dealing with it is a nightmare and nothing can really switch into it anyway. the only "counterplay" has been tera in my experience, which I guess works fine enough but also restricts u a ton in practice. it's also a very good tera abuser itself, and can afford to run multiple types or even moves in the last slot. night slash gets past misdreavus and other ghosts with relative ease but trailblaze sets are also very good and can win pretty much instantly. don't really see the tier adapting to it and I think it's like the most broken threat we've had to deal with this gen

rien: BAN - probably the most stupid mon we've had in the tier since the oricorios :sob: not only is it extremely fast and has very potent stab moves, but it's also surprisingly bulky with eviolite (which it can run comfortably due to resisting rocks and being immune to tspikes) which makes setup with sd super easy. tera dark is super reliable for hitting just about anything while also surviving most ground/psychic moves thrown at it in (often futile) attempts to ko it.

Shaneghoul: BAN - The combination of incredible speed tier, brilliant typing, solid bulk with eviolite, incredibly spammable stabs and most importantly access to Swords dance is what makes sneasel broken to me. If it didn't have access to swords dance I could maybe see a world where it stays (though even then I have my doubts), but the ability to boost, and then even further boost its great speed stat with trailblaze makes this pokemon super broken. There are really no answers to it at +2 and revenge killing isn't an easy task due to its solid bulk with eviolite. This is all amplified by tera allowing you to dodge revenge kill opportunities, with tera dark being especially dangerous as this makes it so that two of our best fastmons in dugtrio and scarf indeedee fail to revengekill. In my eyes this is as clear cut a quickban as we've ever had.

Vulpix03: BAN - Its speed coupled with its great stab combo and access to swords dance make it way too strong for the tier.
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