Project Uber: Leads

imo ninjask leads are too dependent on the opponents lead so its not worth it imo. since it does beat deoxys-s and mew (both top 5 leads), its much more successful in ubers than ou but like shrang said groudon and dialga put ninjask to waste and it becomes useless
To add insult to injury, it's also extremely predictable, you know it's going to attempt to baton pass attack/speed boosts.
 
To add insult to injury, it's also extremely predictable, you know it's going to attempt to baton pass attack/speed boosts.
That's true, but not everyone can stop it. Everyone knows what Ninjask wants to do, but surprisingly few are actually capable of stopping a Ninjask-user who knows what he's doing, to speak from experience (...not that I'm calling myself that person, but... you know). They know they know what it's going to do, and sometimes people underestimate it because of that.

Mostly I ask because the prospect of a +2/+2 Rayquaza sweep makes me drool, but... who knows, I guess I'll just have to try it and see.
 
Not that it's a great achievement, but my Ninjask team put me over 1600 when I was testing it for the analysis, and many other players have done better than I have with it, such as Name1 (dunno where he went).

Basically, it's all about the metagame, and the team you face. If it's in a stallish phase, and everybody and their dog has 2 phazers, you probably won't do well, but if the metagame is in an offensive phase you have a better chance.
 
I guess the question is, then, how common are phazers in Ubers? ...seeing as I'm not playing much right now, I don't really know.
 
I guess the question is, then, how common are phazers in Ubers? ...seeing as I'm not playing much right now, I don't really know.
If we were in a stallish phase, Groudon would be at #2, so I don't think that we're in one yet, though since Jibaku made his team stall has gained popularity. The problem is that Lugia is somewhat popular, but fortunately it's setup fodder for DS Mewtwo, who should ALWAYS be used alongside Ninjask.

You can probably still find success with DS/BP teams, but bear in mind that if the opponent has the tools to stop you, it's gonna be an uphill battle.
 
Is Scarf Mewtwo does not work well as a lead now? I read the updating analysis and it does not mention it as a lead anymore. Why is that?
 
Yes it is on there but I think it is quite a joke, as everything outspeed it and can 2HKO it, letting it set up only one toxic spike. It can only beat deoxy-S. Just don't use it.
Referring to Ariados: It's more of an "interesting" lead who may just give your team the support it needs, don't expect a great antilead out of it against the majority of leads.

It takes on Deoxys leads and has Insomnia for Darkrai with a good stab attack to use on both them.
Toxic spikes is a huge help in Ubers, and Ariados might just be that toxic spiker you are looking for, not to mention that it also can get rid of toxic spikes being set up against you.
I personally haven't used it, but I won't knock it.
 
Referring to Ariados: It's more of an "interesting" lead who may just give your team the support it needs, don't expect a great antilead out of it against the majority of leads.

It takes on Deoxys leads and has Insomnia for Darkrai with a good stab attack to use on both them.
Toxic spikes is a huge help in Ubers, and Ariados might just be that toxic spiker you are looking for, not to mention that it also can get rid of toxic spikes being set up against you.
I personally haven't used it, but I won't knock it.
The problem for Ariados is that everything besides deoxy-s just 2HKO you and outspeed you at the same time. So Darkrai dark pulse(I don't think bug bite has the power to OHKO Darkrai, right?), Groudon EQ, Kyogre Surf, Shaymin-S air slash, Deoxy-A extremespeed, Dialga dragon pulse/meteor all outspeed Ariados and at worse 2HKO you (Shaymin-s has a high chance to completely stop you setting up). Mew also complete stop you setting up by taunting you. You are only setting up one toxic spike layer at most.

If that is really all you want, why don't you use a lum berry Qwilfish or Cloyster with max speed? They can still deal with Deoxys-s and set up T-spikes. They can also set up at least one layer and in general more useful. Cloyter can even set up two against Groudon. Thanks to lum berry, they can still set up one layer against Darkrai. Of course, their ideal item should be focus sash as they can set up two layer against more lead, in exchange of losing to Darkari.

But my point is that both of these pokemon can just set up that one layer you want with Ariados when holding lum, and they have superior stat over Ariados. And Qwilfish can still absorb T-spike if that is what you want. So Ariados is pretty outclassed.
 
imo drapion leads are better than ariados leads, as hes bulkier
The only perks of Ariados is bug STAB and insomnia coupled with Toxic Spikes, Drapion gets one of those. It is also too slow to taunt any common taunters, and is weak to Groudon's STAB while not absorbing a hit from Kyogre well either. As far as leading goes, or maybe his usage in general, there are far better options.
 
If a lead has these three things:

1) Insomnia (or other way to stop Darkrai's sleep)
2) Way to prevent Deo-S from getting >1 layer
3) Utility role of its own

Then it can do decently as a lead. Ariados does all of these things, as does Banette.

But then why do things like Leftovers Groudon, who fail criterias 1 and 2, do well as a lead?

Because Groudon has multiple utility roles. Sets up Sun, sets up SR, provides a check to things like Rayquaza, etc.
 
I've just tested a scarf mewtwo as lead and it has worked very well for me.
Scarf Mewtwo has the ability to be decent, but way to easy to beat imo. As lead darkrai and dialga can easily take aura spheres. Kyogre isn't dying to unboosted grass knots, and twave = gf mewtwo. Deoxys-s would lay down 2-3 layers of hazards, so loss there. Skymin and groudon would die quickly. Deoxys-a would die after 2 turns, but still attack and lay down sr. Gira-o would sneak to death.
 

shrang

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Scarf Mewtwo's only real catch is that gets a really quick Taunt on Deoxys-S, then just gives you and your opponent a free double switch.
 
Scarf Mewtwo's only real catch is that gets a really quick Taunt on Deoxys-S, then just gives you and your opponent a free double switch.
The more popular scarf deoxys-s is meant to counter this obscure and cripple opposing leads. Although ironically, Scarf Mewtwo can win if the opponent is stupid enough to select trick or taunt, and not select spikes.
 
Scarfed Taunting to beat Deoxys-S isn't worth it, seeing as you don't get anything out of it. Furthermore, DX-S can just come in later, Sash intact, to set up layers. Better to attack it, IMO, limiting it to one layer. That's why I dont like Groudon leads, DxS can get 2 layers on them.
 
Scarfed Taunting to beat Deoxys-S isn't worth it, seeing as you don't get anything out of it. Furthermore, DX-S can just come in later, Sash intact, to set up layers. Better to attack it, IMO, limiting it to one layer. That's why I dont like Groudon leads, DxS can get 2 layers on them.
You can say the same for Kyogre, who doesn't even set up entry hazards at all, at least Groudon can set up sr. The biggest reasons Groudon and Kyogre are even leads is to set up weather, not much else. The sheer fact they attack and set up hazards/ thunder wave is a bonus. They may lose to Deoxys-S, but they get their objectives done. Not every lead is meant to crush Deoxys-S, although a huge portion of anti-leads are meant to.
 
this is my lead, its a variant of trick scarf deoxys-s. there are many variants but to my knowledge none the same as this one.



ThrustSSC @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 236 SpA / 22 Spd
Timid nature: (+Spd, -Atk)
- Ice Beam
- Extremespeed
- Stealth Rock
- Trick

to my knowledge this is the only ev spread and nature that can get guaranteed ko on dd ray while still outspeeding max speed scarfed deoxys-a. so i figured why not take advantage of that with ice beam and extremespeed?

mandatory max hp evs so it can take a hit from deoxys-a lead or most other common leads besides kyogre for that matter.

stealth rock is there as an afterthought so it can get sr up if i successfully trick opposing lead, or if i really want to get sr up against an unusual lead.

and yes i ran the damage calcs, even a deoxys-s with no atk evs and a hindering nature does 63.2% - 74.8% to deoxys-a with extremespeed, and of course 100.3% - 118.1% to dd ray with ice beam. also guaranteed ko,s shaymin-s, garchomp and salamence except for the specially bulky variant (89.2% - 105.6%.)

other options are hidden power fire, devastates but doesnt ko scizor and forretress unless in the sun (did 80% to forretress in no weather and 40% to scizor in the rain in the 2 battles i have seen a deoxys-s use hp fire.) and of course shadow ball for opposing deoxys-s and spikes if you really want multiple entry hazards.
 

SkullCandy

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Here's a Deoxys-S set I've been theorymoning for a while a I think it can cause quite a bit of havoc amongst most common leads. This is more of an anti-lead set that also sets up entry hazards with ease.

Deoxys-S @ Focus Sash/Lum Berry
Pressure
Modest
6 HP 252 Sp.Atk 252 Speed
Shadow Ball
Extreme Speed
Spikes
Taunt/Hidden Power [Fire]

Modest is used beacuse you want opposing Deoxys-S to outspeed and Taunt you letting you to Shadow Ball them then KO with Espeed..
Agaisnt Dialga, Groudon and Kyogre you get two layers. Against Mew, Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A you kill their lead. The only leads who are problematic are ScarfRai and ScarfMin. Scizor and Forretress are difficult w/o HP Fire and Giratina-O can survive a Shadow Ball.
HP Fire is a better choice than taunt because it allows you to defeat Forretres and Scizor. Lum berry is a better option to deal with Kyogre and Groudon but Focus Sash can sometimes ensure you get that second layer of spikes up.

Bold RestTalk Kyogre is a good team mate because it cen deal with Darkrai easily as well as dealing with Scirzor and Forretress if you go for taunt.

This is very rough I know but will update it pretty soon.
 

firecape

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Ummm....how does that set function any better then Deoxy-A or just regular Deoxys? Your not using the extra bulk and im pretty sure you lose out on a lot of things thats Deoxy-A can kill easily. This is just the spiker lead with an attack thrown on over SR, the Evs moved from Attack to SpA, and a Modest nature. I don't think you even put much thought into this because you say you beat Mew, and you do 36.6% - 43.6% to the standard lead Mew.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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The Lv. 1 Smeargle lead needs to be added to this. It has clear wins against so many leads, and can cause problems for almost all of the most common leads. It turns Deoxys lead matchups into a prediction war, which is always fun.

The set is
Smeargle@Focus Sash
- Spore
- Trick Room
- Endeavour
- Dragon Rage

At Lv. 1 with the EVs not mattering.

Against Deoxys (Speed and Attack) it can go many different ways.

If they attack and you Spore, the break your sash at the cost of you sleeping their lead and getting Trick Room up on the switch. Unless they bring in a priority user or a ghost, you can Endeavour it to 1 HP.

If they attack and you Endeavour they go down to 1 HP and they have the choice between KOing your lead and being easy to revenge so not getting SR or any Spikes down or getting SR down as you KO them with Dragon Rage.

If they Taunt while you Spore, they can either KO you as you bring them to 1 HP, break your sash and get up one layer, or set up two layers and leave you with your sash.

If they Taunt as you Endevour they either break your sash and die or set up one layer and die. Switching is an option for them, but they still failed to get anything up.

Darkrai will almost always beat this lead. The only way you win is if they Dark Pulse for some reason or Dark Void misses.

Non-Lum Groudon is perfect, even Lum is beatable. You Spore straight off and they either SR or break your sash. If they had Lum and used SR, you're free to Spore again. Once they are asleep set up TR and have fun with Endeavour. The only way you lose is if they have Lum and use EQ twice, however you do have the option of Endeavouring turn 1 which would bring them to 1 HP. Watch out for leftovers recovery taking them out of Dragon Rage range after a few turns.

Shaymin-S is annoying, if it flinches you lose and lose one Pokemon. If it does not flinch, you sleep it and get up TR and can bring any non ghost switch in to one HP. Fairly even since you do more damage, but they have a getter chance.

Kyogre Endeavour beats Lum variants, Spore beats all others. I've not encountered many with Lum, so it has been ideal setup fodder.

Dialga: See Groudon.

Lum Mew can beat you, but you can still bring it to 1 HP and KO if it uses Taunt/SR first turn.

The best setup fodder has been Lead Giratina-O, and Forry, but from the list of other leads the following can be spored and set up on:Mamoswine, Metagross, Lucario, Infernape, Tyranitar (if it attacks, you die and it is asleep. If it SRs, you sleep it and set up), Cloyster, Qwilfish, Froslass. Actually, that's all of them, lol.
 
Isn't there already an analysis for this set on smogon? Besides, many people have actually thought up that set, including me.
 

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