Actually, I used to use a set (different spread) like that when I began Ubers, and I got the idea from other players who essayed it successfully in the Smogon Tour. The main criticism I have of it is that it worked well when the only leads people ever used were Deoxys-A and Darkrai, it unfortunately has suffered due to the rise of Groudon leads.
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Project Uber: Leads
- Thread starter Theorymon
- Start date
Hey! The mix/lead Giratina-O...
As it was stated that Darkrai gives it problems and Outrage is used to smash Thunderwavelead Kyogres, would it be worthwhile to drop Outrage for Magic coat?
As noted with Machamp it gives a shot to take down Darkrai with its own medicin.
Also, as Theorymon stated Choise scarf Kyogre takes the Renegrade ghost down anyway, could it at least be slashed to the set?
As it was stated that Darkrai gives it problems and Outrage is used to smash Thunderwavelead Kyogres, would it be worthwhile to drop Outrage for Magic coat?
As noted with Machamp it gives a shot to take down Darkrai with its own medicin.
Also, as Theorymon stated Choise scarf Kyogre takes the Renegrade ghost down anyway, could it at least be slashed to the set?
This is a good thought. But the problem for magic coat giratina-O is that Darkrai can just dark pulse you. Of course if you can predict that you can hit it with Draco Meteor (+shadow sneak if it hold focus sash). I think it is not very reliable and the winner depends on who has good prediction. Plus, Magic coat is fairly useless when not leading, so I think Outrage is still a better choice
My thoughts in bold.This set has NOT been tested, but I feel that it can do at least decent against the top leads.
Jirachi @ Lum Berry
Nature: Careful
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave / Wish / Screens
- Iron Head / Ice Punch / Fire Punch
- U-Turn
What it does
Vs. Deoxys-s
This set walls Deoxys-s, but sadly cannot prevent it from setting up. The best option is to U-Turn out to break the sash, while Deoxys-s uses Taunt.
Vs. Groudon
This is where it has the most trouble. You can set up SR, or try to flinch it a bit. Without an Impish nature though, Earthquake will OHKO :/
Vs. Darkrai
Lum Berry will fix the sleep problem, allowing you to Thunder Wave. From there, Iron Head is a garunteed 3HKO. You lose against trick scarf, if you set up sr, and Jirachi is slow as hell, even with a scarf, thanks to no speed. Although a scarf Jirachi that can't even revenge +1 Jolly ray is a loss in my book. Although paralyzing Darkrai early in the game is helpful, you still lose something.
Vs. Shaymin-S
Earth Power cannot 2HKO, and you can cripple it with T-Wave and then Ice/Fire Punch or Iron Head.
Vs. Deoxys-A
Deoxys-A typically only has stealth rock, and you can destroy the sash minimum.
Vs. Kyogre
It will be able to set up SR no matter what set it is. Kyogre is mostly t-wave lead, and paralyzing it is basically useless. I'd just sr and u-turn to something like Palkia.
Vs. Dialga
It's STAB moves are resisted by Jirachi, and will a Careful nature it won't take much damage from any special attacks. Flamethrower will 2hko, and it still sets up sr, and won't be crippled much by Paralysis thanks to lum, and even the leftovers variety isn't hurt much thanks to no speed.
Vs. Scizor
Fire Punch is listed up there for this Pokemon. Scizor has no SE moves vs. Jirachi, and it won't be expecting the Fire move.
The main use of this Jirachi is to set up SR, and cripple faster leads with Thunder Wave. U-Turn is great so Jirachi can be used later game, since steel types do well in an environment containing many Dragon and Ice-type moves.
Another option instead of a bulky set would be a Trick(Scarf) lead. The only down side I noticed has been that it cannot outspeed Deoxys-s.
If someone is willing to test this lead, or criticize it/make it better, that would be great ^_^
Hi, I'm sorry, do you mean 252 Sp.Def or just 252 Defense?This set has NOT been tested, but I feel that it can do at least decent against the top leads.
Jirachi @ Lum Berry
Nature: Careful
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave / Wish / Screens
- Iron Head / Ice Punch / Fire Punch
- U-Turn
I just assumed you meant Sp.Def after seeing careful nature, and that Skymin will not 2HKO with earth power.
Well, this lead isn't too bad. It seems alittle outclassed by Dialga in a sense of lum berry, thunder wave, SR. Groudon does that better also.
I suppose this Rachi does have U turn on those two though.
This Rachi takes between 33.7% - 40.1% from Lead thunder wave Ogre's surf, and 42.6% - 50.5% from hydro pump, assuming you meant 252 special defense. Those calcs are pretty good, but then you don't hit Kyogre back for much, not to mention it carries a lum berry of it's own.
That's all I have to say on it, nice idea though :]
Alright after this April Fool's madness is over, the following leads are being added to the OP.
Rayquaza
Hariyama
Abomasnow
Additonally, I have been testing a rather strange Mew lead.
Mew@Life Orb / Black Glasses
Adamant 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
-Fake Out
-Payback
-Stealth Rock
-Explosion
The idea here is that I wanted a more offensive Mew lead. Black Glasses may seem like a strange choice, but with that boost, Fake Out + Payback will always KO max HP Deoxys-S. Deoxys-A will also never OHKO you with Shadow Ball, while Fake Out + Payback will easily lead to its demise. Another big selling point so far for this set is that Payback 2HKOs Giratina-O, who is a common switch-in for Mew leads. This Mew will survive against Modest Kyogre's Surf, but as usual, be careful about Choice Scarf Kyogre! Sadly, this Mew lead can get owned pretty hard by Darkrai de to the lack of lum berry, while Dialga totally resists this moveset (though it wont like taking a Life Orb boosted Explosion!). unfortnately Groudon will set up Stealth Rock unless you Explode on the first turn with Life Orb, while lead Rayquaza will KO you before you KO it. Finally, Shaymin-S can flinch you to death. I'm still unsure about this lead because of its short commings, but Payback has been extremely useful. I may test out other versions without Stealth Rock, potentially something like Low Kick for Dialga.
Rayquaza
Hariyama
Abomasnow
Additonally, I have been testing a rather strange Mew lead.
Mew@Life Orb / Black Glasses
Adamant 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
-Fake Out
-Payback
-Stealth Rock
-Explosion
The idea here is that I wanted a more offensive Mew lead. Black Glasses may seem like a strange choice, but with that boost, Fake Out + Payback will always KO max HP Deoxys-S. Deoxys-A will also never OHKO you with Shadow Ball, while Fake Out + Payback will easily lead to its demise. Another big selling point so far for this set is that Payback 2HKOs Giratina-O, who is a common switch-in for Mew leads. This Mew will survive against Modest Kyogre's Surf, but as usual, be careful about Choice Scarf Kyogre! Sadly, this Mew lead can get owned pretty hard by Darkrai de to the lack of lum berry, while Dialga totally resists this moveset (though it wont like taking a Life Orb boosted Explosion!). unfortnately Groudon will set up Stealth Rock unless you Explode on the first turn with Life Orb, while lead Rayquaza will KO you before you KO it. Finally, Shaymin-S can flinch you to death. I'm still unsure about this lead because of its short commings, but Payback has been extremely useful. I may test out other versions without Stealth Rock, potentially something like Low Kick for Dialga.
Once Deo-A knows your set, can't it just Xspeed on the Fake Out and then finish you with Shadow Ball before you can kill it with Payback?
Yes, but the lead is supposed to be a surprise. Although on paper, it seems like a gimmick.
gimmick leads dont really work in ubers. since you usually end up playing the same person around 10 out of 15 games you need a reliable lead, not a gimmick lead to beat people
It seems reliable enough if you plan on alternating between that and the standard Mew. Think if you play the same guy twice and he's ready to open with Extremespeed to beat you to the punch, then you are free from being taunted and can either Stealth Rock or use taunt yourself. Other than that it does seem a little limited in options if someone is 100% sure which Mew you are running.
Despite Mew's movepool, there's only so much it can do due to base stats. It's bulk isn't that great due to psychic typing. It's attacking stats are crap at best. Infact, due to these limiting factors, Mew can only play as a lead or baton pass support. The only tricky part is what moves it carries.
I just considered this set this morning so it hasn't been tested but I believe it can be a decent lead for the Ubers metagame.
Ubers Lead Lass
Timid Froslass@Focus Sash
252 Spe /252 SpA /4 HP
~Icy Wind
~Shadow Ball
~Taunt
~Destiny Bond/Spikes
This is either a suicide anti-Lead or a sucide Spiker depending on the last slot.
If Spikes is run instead of Destiny Bond you simply throw them out after Taunting the opposing lead until you're KOed.
Spikes can also go instead of Taunt in which case you forgo disruption for your own hazards and the opportunity for mind games with Destiny Bond.
Strategy against common leads:
Deoxys-S: beaten by Icy Wind followed by Shadow Ball, getting up at most one hazard due to the Speed drop from Icy Wind.
Also, it is likely that you will survive the encounter with your Focus Sash in tact since neither Superpower nor Extremespeed can hit Froslass.
Groudon can be taunted then either taken down with Destiny Bond or used to set up 1-2 layers of Spikes depending on whether it attacked.
Darkrai prevails since Froslass cannot absorb sleep or hurt the much faster scarfed Darkrai.
Shaymin-S wins as it is much faster with a scarf and is likely to prevent you from moving at all.
Deoxys-A is quite easily beaten as it would likely fall to the first Icy Wind if not for the Focus Sash.
However, it will be made slow enough to be picked off on the next turn.
Kyogre can be taunted to prevent Thunder Wave and taken down by Destiny Bond or used to get some Spikes on the field.
However, with a scarf, Kyogre will foil the above strategy by outrunning and dispatching Froslass on the next turn.
You could actually beat scarf Kyogre with Icy Wind followed by Destiny Bond but you'll likely be caught by surprise.
Dialga is best taunted then bonded or used for a layer or two of Spikes.
The Bottom Line
This Froslass loves preying on the Deoxys-[A|S] leads which is not too bad since they are among the most common.
Additionally, its speed allows it to foil the setup of bulky leads while threatening them with Destiny Bond or stacking Spikes.
However, Froslass fares badly against the faster scarfers: Darkrai and Shaymin-S.
Though not among the most common in Ubers, Metagross and Scizor will also prevail easily due to their Steel priority.
EDIT: Went back and noticed the Froslass in the OP. They are basically the same with a slash of Icy Wind for Ice Shard.
The only consequence of that is beating max HP Deoxys-S more easily with Icy Wind while losing to Shaymin-S and vice versa with Ice Shard.
I suppose one could include both moves to get the best of both worlds are far as countering those two but then something is lost as well.
Ubers Lead Lass
Timid Froslass@Focus Sash
252 Spe /252 SpA /4 HP
~Icy Wind
~Shadow Ball
~Taunt
~Destiny Bond/Spikes
This is either a suicide anti-Lead or a sucide Spiker depending on the last slot.
If Spikes is run instead of Destiny Bond you simply throw them out after Taunting the opposing lead until you're KOed.
Spikes can also go instead of Taunt in which case you forgo disruption for your own hazards and the opportunity for mind games with Destiny Bond.
Strategy against common leads:
Deoxys-S: beaten by Icy Wind followed by Shadow Ball, getting up at most one hazard due to the Speed drop from Icy Wind.
Also, it is likely that you will survive the encounter with your Focus Sash in tact since neither Superpower nor Extremespeed can hit Froslass.
Groudon can be taunted then either taken down with Destiny Bond or used to set up 1-2 layers of Spikes depending on whether it attacked.
Darkrai prevails since Froslass cannot absorb sleep or hurt the much faster scarfed Darkrai.
Shaymin-S wins as it is much faster with a scarf and is likely to prevent you from moving at all.
Deoxys-A is quite easily beaten as it would likely fall to the first Icy Wind if not for the Focus Sash.
However, it will be made slow enough to be picked off on the next turn.
Kyogre can be taunted to prevent Thunder Wave and taken down by Destiny Bond or used to get some Spikes on the field.
However, with a scarf, Kyogre will foil the above strategy by outrunning and dispatching Froslass on the next turn.
You could actually beat scarf Kyogre with Icy Wind followed by Destiny Bond but you'll likely be caught by surprise.
Dialga is best taunted then bonded or used for a layer or two of Spikes.
The Bottom Line
This Froslass loves preying on the Deoxys-[A|S] leads which is not too bad since they are among the most common.
Additionally, its speed allows it to foil the setup of bulky leads while threatening them with Destiny Bond or stacking Spikes.
However, Froslass fares badly against the faster scarfers: Darkrai and Shaymin-S.
Though not among the most common in Ubers, Metagross and Scizor will also prevail easily due to their Steel priority.
EDIT: Went back and noticed the Froslass in the OP. They are basically the same with a slash of Icy Wind for Ice Shard.
The only consequence of that is beating max HP Deoxys-S more easily with Icy Wind while losing to Shaymin-S and vice versa with Ice Shard.
I suppose one could include both moves to get the best of both worlds are far as countering those two but then something is lost as well.
Went back and noticed the Froslass in the OP. They are basically the same with a slash of Icy Wind for Ice Shard.
The only consequence of that is beating max HP Deoxys-S more easily with Icy Wind while losing to Shaymin-S and vice versa with Ice Shard.
I suppose one could include both moves to get the best of both worlds are far as countering those two but then something is lost as well.
Hasty Froslass@Focus Sash
6Atk / 252SpA / 252 Spe
~Icy Wind
~Ice Shard
~Shadow Ball
~Spikes/Taunt
The above would handle Shaymin-s and max HP Deoxys-S well but no more Taunt or Destiny Bond so you'd just have to Spike against the bulkier leads.
Nonetheless, as long as you keep going first you'll be guaranteed three layers if they do not attack you at once and two otherwise.
EDIT: Decided Taunt is still viable since you can stop rocks/status and switch rather than Spike.
It really depends on the player's particular priorities but I think Spikes allows it to have more of a long term battle effect.
Of the top seven leads, I think only Scarf Darkrai would completely shut this set down from turn one.
The only consequence of that is beating max HP Deoxys-S more easily with Icy Wind while losing to Shaymin-S and vice versa with Ice Shard.
I suppose one could include both moves to get the best of both worlds are far as countering those two but then something is lost as well.
Hasty Froslass@Focus Sash
6Atk / 252SpA / 252 Spe
~Icy Wind
~Ice Shard
~Shadow Ball
~Spikes/Taunt
The above would handle Shaymin-s and max HP Deoxys-S well but no more Taunt or Destiny Bond so you'd just have to Spike against the bulkier leads.
Nonetheless, as long as you keep going first you'll be guaranteed three layers if they do not attack you at once and two otherwise.
EDIT: Decided Taunt is still viable since you can stop rocks/status and switch rather than Spike.
It really depends on the player's particular priorities but I think Spikes allows it to have more of a long term battle effect.
Of the top seven leads, I think only Scarf Darkrai would completely shut this set down from turn one.
FYI, ExtremeSpeed + Shadow Ball fails to KO a max HP Mew.
I've been testing a different Darkrai lead and it's been working quite well.
Double Status Lead
Darkrai @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 HP/252 Spd/4 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Dark Void
- Trick
- Thunder Wave/ Will-o-Wisp
- Hidden Power [Fire]/ Dark Pulse
The idea of this set is not only cripple the opponent's lead with Trick or Dark Void but also spread status. Most of people will switch after Darkrai put a Pokemon to sleep (unless it is a Sleep Talker) so I'll have a free turn to paralyze or burn the switch. With this EVs Darkrai can survive even Dialga's Draco Metor, use Trick and put it to sleep with Dark Void. I use HP Fire because Darkrai tends to lure steel types like Scizor and Forestress after putting something to sleep, so it is a good lure for teams that have problems with those two pokes. Thunder Wave is a better choice than Will-o-wisp because in Ubers paralyzis is more useful than burn status. In some matches I was able to cripple 3 pokemons using only Darkrai by Tricking Choice Scarf in a lead using Stealth Rock, putting the second one to sleep and paralyzing the next.
This is the strategy I use agaisnt some common leads.
Deoxys-S: I usually Trick locking it into Stealth Rock or Spikes, then I start spreading status. If I don't want Deoxys-S to set-up I just use Dark Void in the first turn.
Groudon: Trick in the first turn. EQ will never OHKO Darkrai. If Groudon uses SR or Thunder Wave I have a free turn to use Dark Void on the next Pokemon and paralyze another.
Darkrai: A bit tricky here. If the opponent's Darkrai is scarfed too he has a chance put mine to sleep before I can do anything. I usually switch here.
Shaymin-S: If it's Modest I can outspeed and put it to sleep. If is Timid goes to a speed tie. I usually switch.
Kyogre: Dark Void in the first turn. Even if Kyogre has Lum Berry, the Thunder Wave leads won't be able to OHKO with Surf. So I'll be able to use Dark Void again. Kyogre usually will be sleeping unless I get a parahax or a miss.
Dialga: Dialga leads can't OHKO with Draco Metor. So I'll be safe to use Trick then Dark Void. Again only a miss or a Critical Hit will make Darkrai lose here.
Double Status Lead
Darkrai @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 HP/252 Spd/4 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Dark Void
- Trick
- Thunder Wave/ Will-o-Wisp
- Hidden Power [Fire]/ Dark Pulse
The idea of this set is not only cripple the opponent's lead with Trick or Dark Void but also spread status. Most of people will switch after Darkrai put a Pokemon to sleep (unless it is a Sleep Talker) so I'll have a free turn to paralyze or burn the switch. With this EVs Darkrai can survive even Dialga's Draco Metor, use Trick and put it to sleep with Dark Void. I use HP Fire because Darkrai tends to lure steel types like Scizor and Forestress after putting something to sleep, so it is a good lure for teams that have problems with those two pokes. Thunder Wave is a better choice than Will-o-wisp because in Ubers paralyzis is more useful than burn status. In some matches I was able to cripple 3 pokemons using only Darkrai by Tricking Choice Scarf in a lead using Stealth Rock, putting the second one to sleep and paralyzing the next.
This is the strategy I use agaisnt some common leads.
Deoxys-S: I usually Trick locking it into Stealth Rock or Spikes, then I start spreading status. If I don't want Deoxys-S to set-up I just use Dark Void in the first turn.
Groudon: Trick in the first turn. EQ will never OHKO Darkrai. If Groudon uses SR or Thunder Wave I have a free turn to use Dark Void on the next Pokemon and paralyze another.
Darkrai: A bit tricky here. If the opponent's Darkrai is scarfed too he has a chance put mine to sleep before I can do anything. I usually switch here.
Shaymin-S: If it's Modest I can outspeed and put it to sleep. If is Timid goes to a speed tie. I usually switch.
Kyogre: Dark Void in the first turn. Even if Kyogre has Lum Berry, the Thunder Wave leads won't be able to OHKO with Surf. So I'll be able to use Dark Void again. Kyogre usually will be sleeping unless I get a parahax or a miss.
Dialga: Dialga leads can't OHKO with Draco Metor. So I'll be safe to use Trick then Dark Void. Again only a miss or a Critical Hit will make Darkrai lose here.
Pirika, does Darkrai live the second Draco Meteor? Because you trick a Choice Scarf onto it which makes it faster, no?
Darkrai still outspeed Dialga without Choice Scarf (Support Dialga with a Choice Scarf tricked hits 324 speed). So it'll be able to use Dark Void before Dialga use Draco Metor again.
Ah, gotcha.
I've been testing a different Darkrai lead and it's been working quite well.
Double Status Lead
Darkrai @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 252 HP/252 Spd/4 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Dark Void
- Trick
- Thunder Wave/ Will-o-Wisp
- Hidden Power [Fire]/ Dark Pulse
Shaymin-S: If it's Modest I can outspeed and put it to sleep. If is Timid goes to a speed tie. I usually switch.
.
Shaymin-S is faster than Darkrai, Timid maxes at 388.
The lead is a kinda cool idea, but it would appear to struggle with most leads. The only beneficial part about this would be the bluff part. But that isn't even great, since against Deoxys-S leads, you trick/dark void, and they will either get an entry hazard up or stay in to possibly wake up while you have to switch, respectively.
It just struggles a lot, but it could be an annoyance thunder waving the unexpected..I just wouldn't use it.
Most of leads won't stay after Darkrai uses Dark Void because everybody expect Darkrai setting up Nasty Plot or firing powerful Dark Pulses while the opponent's pokemon is sleeping. The idea of this lead is not to stop entry hazards, but to cripple at least two Pokemons in the begining of the game with Trick, Dark Void and Thunder Wave/Will-o-Wisp. Choice Scarfers and Scizor are common checks to Darkrai after the Sleep Clause is activated, and nobody will like to have a Choice Scarf user paralyzed.
I can see it being very successful in coherence with a Spinner.
Well, what I meant is Deoxys-S will stay in because after outspeeding and Dark voiding the thing, they know you're scarf. Giving them their free turn while you switch to waste sleep turns.
I see what you're saying though.
How does Ninjask function as an Uber lead? I know he tends to be overlooked and underrated, and even not that good because of his vulnerability to Taunt/Roar and priority, but I've been borrowing a standard non-attacking Ninjask with the non-standard spread of 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef in OU (hold Liechi), and it's been performing like a champ by taking Scizor's banded Bullet Punches and Mamo's STAB (non-Banded) Ice Shards, even after damage from putting up a Sub.
The reason I bring it up is, might Ninjask be an effective Uber lead with a similarly-bulky spread tailored to the Uber environment? I'm absolutely horrible with EVs, so I wouldn't know where to start with it apart from the moves... I know it definitely needs Protect to block Taunt and Roar, and I don't know about Sub VS X-Scissor, but I'm thinking the standard non-attacking set is best. Any thoughts on this? Maybe someone wants to help me out by whipping up a usable EV spread...? o__o
The reason I bring it up is, might Ninjask be an effective Uber lead with a similarly-bulky spread tailored to the Uber environment? I'm absolutely horrible with EVs, so I wouldn't know where to start with it apart from the moves... I know it definitely needs Protect to block Taunt and Roar, and I don't know about Sub VS X-Scissor, but I'm thinking the standard non-attacking set is best. Any thoughts on this? Maybe someone wants to help me out by whipping up a usable EV spread...? o__o
