Lower Tiers Potential Rises and Drops in GSC UU/NU

[dawnbuster]

Hi there! With this thread, I would like to discuss potential changes to GSC UU and GSC NU, as I (and have seen a few others say stuff about this) believe some Pokemon should be moved tiers. In 2018, GSC UU dumped a lot of UU Pokemon that did not belong there into NU, such as Raichu Poliwrath, and Weezing, and rose NU Pokemon Mr. Mime, Haunter, and Pikachu to UU as they were being effectively used in UU.


As it stands, Vileplume and Arcanine can barely be considered UU Pokemon. Both, especially Vileplume, are pretty useless in GSC UU, seeing like 4 uses in all UU tours combined over the last few years. Vileplume in particular is borderline unviable, being virtually entirely outclassed by Bellossom, Victreebel, and Hypno in what roles it wants to do, and there are several NU Pokemon better than it. Arcanine is also very bad in GSC UU, being virtually never seen as Fire types are just quite bad in GSC UU and generally being a worse special tank than Pokemon like Hypno and Lanturn. It is also easily walled by the Water type on every team, including letting in Qwilfish to setup Spikes and Blastoise to freely spin.


On the contray, Shuckle should be moved up from NU to UU. It has seen a lot ton of usage in the past few GSC UU team tours, even more than several UU Pokemon, and while it has a lot of flaws and is only really seen on one team style in stall, it is very tough to KO for most of the tier and walls a huge amount of key Pokemon like Granbull, and its clearly proven itself to be solid in UU.

There are a few other changes that could be considered, such as dropping Pikachu to NU or rising Wigglytuff to UU, but I would like to just stick with these two noms rn.

Recently RBY UU and RBY NU have done similar changes in dropping and rising Pokemon, so I dont see why GSC UU and NU can’t do the same. They already did what I am proposing a few years ago, so lets do it again. Let me know your thoughts.

Tl;dr: of my proposal
UU to NU
NU to UU

 

[cherryb0ng]

stuff

I second everything said here. In GSC UU Arcanine is only remotely viable in some skewed cases, Vileplume is outclassed by the presence of a number of actually decent grass types. In terms of movepool it has to compete with a pokemon that shares exactly the same moves in Bellossom, which does not have a psychic weaknesses and does have a ground resistance, making it a much better option as a special wall. Furthermore, its slowness doesn't help it at bringing anything to the table.

I haven't played much GSC NU for the past year so what I write on this should be taken with a grain of salt, but I do believe that Vileplume and Arcanine might be worth trying in the tier, as the meta has only one viable grass type (it's pre-evolution in Gloom) and Arcanine could be a new tankier fire type over Ninetails or Rapidash.

As to how Shuckle works, I am not sure I like it in NU at all. Despite the presence of Water types, the meta game seems to have fewer tools to handle its presence because in lower tiers there is just less power. Shuckle is actually tanky to the point of being a nuissance for special attackers and physical attackers to break through (off the top of my head Xatu has limited Psychic PP and Primeape cannot safely stay in on Shuckle without getting Toxic'd). The GSC NU tier itself has gotten to a point where Water type pokemon like Octillery and Dewgong are not free to just come in willy-nilly given any opportunity, as they are often the first line of defence vs special attackers including Xatu, Fire types and opposing Water types. As a result, though they may not be threatened by Shuckle, scenarios where the player doesn't actually have a Water type to potentially break through it aren't uncommon, making it a very tall task and even leading to very passive situations.

In terms of usage, Shuckle clearly shows that it can handle GSC UU's threats, despite the presence of even stronger water types and its biggest counter being Qwilfish.
Shuckle is a great presence in the UU metagame, being the sole normal resisting pokemon of the tier that isn't weak to Ground typing. Shuckle has been seen at the top level play stalling out even opposing Nidoqueen and Piloswine out of their Earthquake PP all while maintaining a sufficient amount of health to repell attacks from the likes of Granbull and Dodrio. It's basically considered obbligatory in GSC UU stall and a defining of this style of play. This might just be a sign that it's too much for NU to handle.

 

[FNH]

Just because something sucks in UU doesnt mean its gonna be a healthy addition to NU. You do realize that all the stuff holding Arcanine back will now be gone if you drop it NU? It has equal speed to Xatu with better defenses and HP. Oh ye its also got better attack. If Octillery wasn't mandatory on every team, well it would be now. It's not gonna suck, its going to be a fucking bitch to stop. I don't understand Vileplume either. Gloom is good, so let us introduce the better version of it because the current version is already pretty good.

I understand that you want to try some new stuff and change it up. Keeps the meta refreshing and fun while possibly attracting greater attention, but surely this is not the way to do.


btw Im fine with no shuckle.

 

[dawnbuster]

Just because something sucks in UU doesnt mean its gonna be a healthy addition to NU. You do realize that all the stuff holding Arcanine back will now be gone if you drop it NU? It has equal speed to Xatu with better defenses and HP. Oh ye its also got better attack. If Octillery wasn't mandatory on every team, well it would be now. It's not gonna suck, its going to be a fucking bitch to stop. I don't understand Vileplume either. Gloom is good, so let us introduce the better version of it because the current version is already pretty good.

I understand that you want to try some new stuff and change it up. Keeps the meta refreshing and fun while possibly attracting greater attention, but surely this is not the way to do.


btw Im fine with no shuckle.

This post entirely misses the point of what I am proposing. I have seen a few people in the past talk about rises and drops in GSC UU and GSC NU, and that is why I made this thread, to discuss Pokemon I think (and have seen others say) should maybe change positions in tiers. I am not proposing dropping Vileplume and Arcanine to NU simply to shake up the tier, I am doing it because both Pokemon are terrible in UU so we should drop them to NU. That is what was done in the 2018 GSC NU revamp, dump terrible UU Pokemon to NU. Speaking of, it does not matter how good either Pokemon seem to be in NU, as if they are broken…we can just y’know ban them to NUBL, and this is not a test of can these Pokemon fit in NU, no, it is dropping bad UU Pokemon to NU. If they both (or just one) end up having a positive presence, then hussah, but if not, then we can just ban them. (Btw I highly doubt Vileplume is broken, in fact, i think it could bring a lot of good into the tier).

Speaking of, I would like people to join the GSC Discord (link), and discuss the effect Plume / Arcanine have on GSC NU if that is ok :))

 

[Blaine500]

After reading this thread over a couple of times, here are my thoughts on the matter!


I could see Vileplume being dropped to NU as a positive addition to the tier and since Gloom would become entirely outclassed it would probably have to be dropped down to PU (tho the question remains if it would be too OP there). Given that NU has Xatu as the alpha of the tier and many fires types to boot, I think a stronger grass type should honestly be welcomed with open arms.


As for Arcanine, however, I think it'll be way too strong for the tier. It quite literally has a higher BST than Snorlax the king of GSC himself and was originally planned to be a legendary by the developers at one point. I agree with the point that FNH made about Octillery and to a lesser extent Dewgong becoming almost forced onto every team just to deal with the added fire power (pun intended lol) that Arcanine would bring with it and I don't think it would be healthy for the meta from a teambuilding standpoint.

Besides, if that fact wasn't enough on its own NU as a whole already has an oversaturation of fire types with the likes of Rapidash, Magmar, Magcargo, Flareon, Ninetales and even Houndour. Any more competition for the "fire type" spot on the team and it might just become too much. The thing is that I just don't even see any of the pokemon that I just mentioned being dropped to PU if their useage went down considerably as a result of introducing Arcanine in NU. They're all too powerful for the lower tiers imo. If anything I think Arcanine should either stay in UU or go down to NUBL.


When it comes to shuckle I'm actually open to the idea of it going up from NU -> UU. Outside of the few water types present in NU (mainly Octillery and Dewgong) there's really not that many ways of dealing with it in the lower tiers and all its done there is unnecessarily extend matches for stall teams. It could easily do well in UU against Granbull, Nidoqueen and others imo and I'm interested in seeing it :)


On a side note, I think Pikachu & Wigglytuff are perfectly fine in the tiers they're in currently.

 

[FeraSaur]

i think crobat should be dropped to nu heres why

1 it has no offensive pressure at all

2 it doesnt counter or check anything exept scyther and pinsir

3 its not good defensively its weak to ice psycic and electric all common types in uu and the onl good things it resists is ground since grass fighting and poisne are all almost non existent in uu

 

[FeraSaur]

agreed vileplume cannot be used in uu its offers no defensive/offensive utility cannot sweep with swords dance effectively due to low speed is weak to flying which is seen on common mons like scyther and gyra and weak to pilo and queens ice beam aswell as all the psycics from mine and sometimes hypno and vileplume also wouldnt e overbearing in nu due to having a few common weaknesses like fire and psycic and as for arcaine it is weak to ground and water all very common types in gsc uu from mons like nidoqueen piloswince scyther quaqsire and pinsir aswell as the hydro pumps/surfs of lanturn omastar gyrados qwilfish blasitoise politoed i do think arcaine might be overbearing in uu but it has no coverage to hit waters aside from hidden power and being unable to hit opposing fires and being hit hard by dugtrio dewong octilery and chincou although its strong fire blast with good bulk would make a pretty mcuh better nine aside from a bit lower spdef and speed.

 

[Blaine500]

i think crobat should be dropped to nu heres why

1 it has no offensive pressure at all

2 it doesnt counter or check anything exept scyther and pinsir

3 its not good defensively its weak to ice psycic and electric all common types in uu and the onl good things it resists is ground since grass fighting and poisne are all almost non existent in uu

I disagree with this idea cause being x4 resistant to Scyther's & Pinsir's stab is no small thing from a defensive standpoint in a tier filled with psychic types and those waters you mentioned in your later post are typically addressed with grass types, which Crobat also x4 resists such as Victreebel and Bellossom.

Being able to shut down Baton Pass through haze while being faster than even Quagsire after agility is also a massive plus side (tho I don't know the current state of baton pass in terms of what is still allowed or not in UU). Its got many things going for it to make it a prime part of UU defensively and although many things hit harder than it there's usual always a bigger fish in any tier you play.


I don't think sending it down to NU would work as its meer presence would mess with the current balance of things imo. Mons such as Machoke, Primape, Arbok would probably be massively effected and Gloom would definitely not be able to deal with Crobat either.

 

[FeraSaur]

i already mentioned it is only able to shut down pinsir and bp is extremely rare in uu and mons having walls is natrual like all those mons youve mentioned are walled by poisions like weezing exept arbok who has limited defesnive use despite being a pretty good mon we can discuss what an nu with crobat would be on discord PorydonZ#0818 also grass types like bellesom and victrbell dont see much serious use plus the only thing that is valuable is countering scyther and pinsir thats it and we can discuss how it would be in nu on discord i think it would be a fine choice just unspectcular since it doesnt get the coverage weezing gets and its stab is nearly non existent.

 

[Siatam]

To address the immediate question of Crobat, access to Haze and 130 base speed make it one of the most reliable checks to baton pass scyther - a common threat in UU. While the banning of speed passing has diminished the importance of a speedy Hazer, Crobat still has a small niche on defensive UU teams.

To address the topic of GSC UU and NU tiering as a whole: it is true that UU and NU are tiered on a viability based system. The community's perception of the viability of mons can result in tiering drops and rises. However, recent feedback from the GSC UU tiering survey and the general feedback from the GSC NU community have demonstrated a lack of enthusiasm to explore and potentially rebalance the tiers after any bannings/unbannings. While tiering changes to GSC UU and GSC NU are not impossible, it is undesirable to destabilize these established tiers if the current communities are uninterested in dealing with the consequences.

I will leave this thread open for others to voice their opinions on tiering changes in GSC UU and NU. If there is significant community and tour player support, tiering changes may be implemented.

 

[I am New]

Why cant we unban venusaur? It is just a better vileplume a pokemon thats pretty outclassed. Its checked easily by mons like mr.mime and hypno. Its weak to moves like ice beam fire blast psychic drill pecks and hp flyings.
Its not even oppressive offensively either.

 

[FeraSaur]

cause bl was made awile ago people just guessed if mons were broken or not

 

[Blaine500]

Why cant we unban venusaur? It is just a better vileplume a pokemon thats pretty outclassed. Its checked easily by mons like mr.mime and hypno. Its weak to moves like ice beam fire blast psychic drill pecks and hp flyings.
Its not even oppressive offensively either.

You know what?!? This isn't the craziest idea I've heard. Venusaur in UU could be interesting for sure, especially since all it has over things like Vileplume is Roar, Light Screen and higher stats in general. The question then becomes what happens to the things it ends up outclassing? As I stated in a previous post, I'm definitely open to the idea of trying Plume in NU but that's still a notion that has to be fleshed out more before just "going for it" I would think.

 

[Blaine500]

I was watching Dawn's most recent video on the current stat of UU and they suggested freeing Aerodactyl from BL to check Scyther who is proving to be overbearing in the tier. After thinking it over, I think that running tests on this idea could only be positive for UU.

Blastoise, Slowbro, Piloswine, Electrode and several others could definitely deal with it and if this can help make the tier more playable, why not?

 

[BigFatMantis]

I was watching Dawn's most recent video on the current stat of UU and they suggested freeing Aerodactyl from BL to check Scyther who is proving to be overbearing in the tier. After thinking it over, I think that running tests on this idea could only be positive for UU.

Blastoise, Slowbro, Piloswine, Electrode and several others could definitely deal with it and if this can help make the tier more playable, why not?

I’ve been thinking for a while that freeing or at least testing Aerodactyl is the right thing to do. I know a lot of others prefer to free Muk but I’m not totally sold on Muk and would prefer to see an Aero test. But maybe it’s best to just test both at the same time since Aero would also probably help with the annoying Muk sets.

Hopefully we can get some testing done in the upcoming GSC tour. I don’t think there’s enough support for a massive drop but Aero honestly should be just fine and solve some issues by itself, while Muk would change the way offense is played but it might be in a positive way, not sure, but worth a try to test.

 

[corvere]

we should definitely see something happening with uu, be it unbanning some BLs, banning mons (scyther) or even both things at once.
freeing aero would make scyther a trillion times worse, which is always fantastic. it would also be an amazing non thunder bull counter and it would absolutely ruin sd pass + normal spam teams. this gets even'd out by it being somewhat weak and being food for some of the more common walls in uu (pilo and the slow twins come to mind; then you also have stuff like blastoise and omastar). it would even be an ok check to muk, if both were to be suspected at the same time.

muk in my eyes would probably be a bit too much tho. yes, its slow. but its just a behemoth of an offensive pokemon. poison is amazing as an offensive typing in a tier without steels(mag is not a real steel) and coupled with curse and boom, it would always force at least one for one in every game. its also bulky enough to eat hits comfortably from stuff like queen and pilo and scare them with a potential boom. boom curse fire blast sludge bomb hits everything extremely hard and is very difficult to switch into.

regardless id love to see action in uu. i love this tier but nowadays its been very boring both to play and spectate/build. just my thoughts.

have a nice day.

 

[Blaine500]

After reading through all of the responses on here I've come to the personal conclusion that the following pokemon should be suspect tested in their respective tiers at some point in the future:

from NU -> PU

from UU -> NU

from BL -> UU

from BL-> UU

These would be my suggestions concisely put all into one place. If anyone agrees or disagrees with these ideas please leave a Luvdisc (for agree) or a

angry Primeape (for disagree) on this post. This gives the moderators more information to work with for if or when tiers changes get voted on and they can always come back on discussions such as this for reference in their decision making.

 

[TLTK]

I don't agree with moving Vileplume and Gloom to NU and PU respectively, Vileplume would be a huge concern for bulky water mons that makes the tier into balance, and forcing some more tiering actions on mons such as Dugtrio, as an example. On the other side Gloom would be super annoying as a para spreader utility role with non-passive recovery, Leech Seed pressure and a STAB that hits with neutral/high effectiveness on most of the tier (yeah, Sludge Bomb ofc).

Aerodactyl on UU? Come on, it would be an insane SD pass taker, if you hated Scyther get prepared for something that Crobat can't reliably Haze on.

Some suggestions I have:

from NU > UUBL
This thing is the king of late sweeps at NU, super reliable on spikes offense teams, sub/screech is pain, I know it's frail and Octo/Dewgong/Bayleef are viable checks at early/mid game for the lil mole, but it also has great synergy with Explosion/Self-Destruct removals and it is well paired with Weez/Xatu/Chou, those are great for constantly cripple the most common Duggy checks so one way or another you just end up removing them checks for successful late sweeps. We all know what it is to build something on NU and being afraid of making it "too Duggy prone". Not a huge concern on UU tho.

from OUBL > UU
This fella is just a budget Rhydon at OU, not as good for soft-checking monolax, but certainly a better answer for curse EQ lax. Why to pull him into UU? Two reasons: 1) the lack of enough spinner options in a meta in where stall is becoming quite popular, and 2) a low speed tier Curse user with access to Roar which means another great setup option for teambuilding, not too overpowered since Pilo, Blastoise and Slowbro can deal with it, and Omastar, Politoed, even Bellossom can revenge kill easily. Oh and it has Encore. Donphan is basically Sandslash but with better.

from OUBL > UU
Kinda mid at OU, decent at OUBL, but in UU would be kinda interesting. A reliable Piloswine check (guess you can count Slowbro here aswell), nice Scyther answer, and really interesting movepool utilities: Dragon Breath/Toxic/Sing for status spreading, Curse for physical options, Perish Song, Nightmare, Reflect, etc. Not overpowered since it suffers 4th slot syndrome in a tier that lacks of flexible role mons, and this turns it into a nice glue on most teams. Checked by Lanturn, Chansey, AND ITSELF!... And also scared of high electric-type moves usage in the tier (Buzz, Magne, Lanturn and Amphy as STAB users, Mime, Gyara and Queen as common users). A whole fresh new meta if you drop it.