Policy Review: Proposal for CAP 27: A Framework Ultra Beast (UB) CAP

[Deck Knight]

Thread Approved by Birkal
Policy Review: Proposal for CAP 27: A Framework Ultra Beast (UB) CAP.


Introduction

With CAP 26 coming to a close soon, we’ll be getting SwSh information at an increasingly rapid pace. June 5th there will be a direct, and the usual release date for main series Pokemon games is Mid-November. This timeline puts us at out at mid-October for a usual CAP Project. This strikes me as too close to release date to get much play time with the final Gen 7 CAP.


My proposal is that for our last Generation 7 CAP, we model after a pre-selected Framework of an Ultra Beast CAP. For purposes of clarity, that is what this means:

An Ultra Beast CAP has 570 total BST comprised of 6 individual Prime Numbers, Beast Boost as its sole ability, is single stage, 100% genderless, learns moves in a set pattern of 7/13/19/23/29/31/37/43/47/53/59/67/73 and is otherwise confined only to general restrictions like movepool limits. We will also add a brief flavor stage to determine the UB’s Codename concurrent with the name stage. (EG UB02: Absorption) These specifics conform to all the Ultra Beasts released in SM (Naganadel, Blacephalon, and Stakataka differ but streamlining is necessary and this structure actually allows more moves.)

This will modify the TLT structure to exclude the Ability Leader.

Reasons to do a UB CAP as our last Gen 7 project:

Ultra Beasts were a unique addition to the 7th Generation, serving as very unique Pokemon that broke Gamefreak’s general mode of balance with wacky and exaggerated stat distributions and unique artistic designs. Therefore, the project overall offers the following benefits:

• Reduced Timeframe by removing the Ability Stage entirely and bounding flavor stages for smaller submission windows
• Explores an added element to the franchise with a CAP spin on it.
• Additional structure makes the process more challenging and invigorating for working within the constraints, much like the CAP 25 starters
• Excitement for Artists who want to submit original and kind of “out there” designs.

I understand this framework as presented impacts a number of stages, most prominently ability, but it does give us time to create the 27th CAP before the end of the generation and it will serve as a nice capstone for this generation.

I want to use this thread to gather feedback and assess the support of this idea for our last CAP this generation.

 

[Bughouse]

If we want to fit in another project into gen 7, I'm not sure it really is 100% necessary timewise to use this predetermined framework. I think with some aggressive timelines, CAP 27 could probably start around the 2nd week of July and still finish in time. This idea would help make it maybe need to be just a little less aggressive though by saving let's say 2-3 weeks total on abilities. It's not huge, but it's something. And I do want to make clear that I don't fundamentally oppose this. Beast Boost and wonky stat spreads are not inherently bad for the CAP process.

That said, I think I'd oppose doing another project at all. I think it would probably be better to do a final review of Gen 7 CAP and do more updates if necessary. The last ones were in 2017 - 4 CAP projects ago, but really 6 CAP mons once 26 ends, because of the trio for 25. Those are big changes. 3 in particular are relevant forces in the metagame that didn't exist the last time revisions were done. Pajantom is in A rank, Jumbao is in A-, and Caribolt is in A-.

Additionally, several CAP mons remain totally unviable. Some may want to revise them to increase their viability.

I know that the process PR approved about updates called for them at the start of a new gen - which makes sense - but I think the end of a gen calls for them too. Old gen CAP metas do continue to get played and balancing them at the very end seems to me it would be a positive.

 

[snake]

If we want to fit in another project into gen 7, I'm not sure it really is 100% necessary timewise to use this predetermined framework. I think with some aggressive timelines, CAP 27 could probably start around the 2nd week of July and still finish in time. This idea would help make it maybe need to be just a little less aggressive though by saving let's say 2-3 weeks total on abilities. It's not huge, but it's something. And I do want to make clear that I don't fundamentally oppose this. Beast Boost and wonky stat spreads are not inherently bad for the CAP process.

That said, I think I'd oppose doing another project at all. I think it would probably be better to do a final review of Gen 7 CAP and do more updates if necessary. The last ones were in 2017 - 4 CAP projects ago, but really 6 CAP mons once 26 ends, because of the trio for 25. Those are big changes. 3 in particular are relevant forces in the metagame that didn't exist the last time revisions were done. Pajantom is in A rank, Jumbao is in A-, and Caribolt is in A-.

Additionally, several CAP mons remain totally unviable. Some may want to revise them to increase their viability.

I know that the process PR approved about updates called for them at the start of a new gen - which makes sense - but I think the end of a gen calls for them too. Old gen CAP metas do continue to get played and balancing them at the very end seems to me it would be a positive.

Updates' primary purpose it to add any appropriate new moves to CAPs from a new generation. However last updates went with competitive changes, I strongly oppose any future competitive updates. It's not worth the time and effort when we can be doing actual CAP Processes and developing the metagame as a whole. Pokemon naturally fall off in viability, and CAPs are no different - there's not much of a reason to inflate their viability and overturn the metagame for no real reason. It just increases the viability of some CAPs, pushes out others, and then you've got a whole new list of unviable CAPs. Or, you've got a metagame that's even more top-heavy and hard to build for. Neither are good situations. I'd like to make a separate PRC thread on updates, though, so that we don't derail the potential of CAP27 in Generation 7. If we want to balance broken Pokemon, though, we have the nerfing process, which we could do after CAP26 ends.

An Ultra Beast CAP sounds pretty interesting honestly. It would shorten the time of a CAP Process and ensure that we have enough time to playtest CAP27 before the generation ends. It would be a good way to close off Generation 7 as well. I sorta like this idea.

 

[Jordy]

I know that the process PR approved about updates called for them at the start of a new gen - which makes sense - but I think the end of a gen calls for them too. Old gen CAP metas do continue to get played and balancing them at the very end seems to me it would be a positive.

I don't have time to make a big post and would prefer to not discuss this here because it kinda derails this thread, but I wanted to respond to this. I believe that there's no reason to artificially adjust a metagame at the end by unnecessarily buffing Pokemon. Increasing a CAP Pokemon's viability artificially does not "balance" the metagame, at all. I think that we should leave metagames in full legacy, unless there's a significant issue that we couldn't handle before the end (not necessarily the end, just the end of it being the main gen) of the gen, like Aurumoth in ORAS. Another big issue that I have is that this idea directly clashes with itself. This is exactly how old gens will die. Doing competitive updates and implementing them into a soon-to-be old gen heavily messes with various resources such as the VR and analyses and probably won't give us enough time to accurately update them all. If you haven't noticed, ORAS CAP is pretty much dead outside of CAPTT because of how outdated all the resources are. I won't talk about doing competitive updates before gen 8 to implement them in gen 8 because I don't really have a stance on it, but I'd far more prefer that than change a soon-to-be old gen by the time updates would start rolling out.

I'm sorry if this seemed a bit rambly, but I just wanted to get my thoughts out.

 

[Bughouse]

Yes my proposal is semi derailing the thread in that it proposes an alternative path, but I think the two thoughts are related since CAP can't be introspective about the current meta at the same time as making a new CAP. It really is an either or.

My point is that we often wait a month, maybe two, before making a new CAP. The meta is not really allowed to be settled and examined.

You'll notice I said "do a final review of Gen 7 CAP and do more updates if necessary". I'm certainly not proposing a rehash of the full updates done in 2017... much more so on the review of the metagame and only making tweaks where necessary.

You complain that ORAS CAP resources are bad. Well, one way to make sure SM resources are good so that it's a playable metagame after Gen 8 has come around is to actually invest time into the SM metagame and not just keep pumping out another CAP mon that will go live around a month before Gen 8 is released. You do that and you all but guarantee that SM resources will not be accurate to the metagame since there's just not enough time before all interest turns to Gen 8.

It's an awkward timeline in that we probably don't want to wait all the way from June to like... January at the earliest when Gen 8 CAP updates would have wrapped up. But I think the alternative of making another CAP and then rushing into Gen 8 is worse.

If people are deadset on making another Gen 7 CAP, then a UB is fine by me, as I already said.

 

[Birkal]

Well this PR thread took a hard left immediately out of the gates LOL

As a CAP moderator, it’s our job to approve threads for PR, even if we don’t necessarily agree with them. Such is the case here: I’m personally not into this proposal, but if it’s something the community wants, then I wouldn’t be opposed. Let me try to pin down why I’m overall against the idea of making CAP27 an Ultra Beast by addressing your four points.

Reduced Timeframe by removing the Ability Stage entirely and bounding flavor stages for smaller submission windows

Reduced timeframe is a straight downgrade for a project that is built around meaningful conversations. Smaller submission windows also discourage community involvement. I understand the pressure to release before a new generation, but we have to understand that people will have waning interest in CAP months before the release of Gen8, not weeks. Shaving that time doesn’t really address the fact that we’re building for a meta that is on its final legs before being archived.

Explores an added element to the franchise with a CAP spin on it.

This actually continues to work at odds (for me) with how ramping up to a new generation should feel. GameFreak will announce their new crazy mechanics over the next few months (mega stones, Z-crystals, Alolan, UB, etc), and it will get people hyped about the new thing. That would make CAP27 feel outdated even as we’re building it. It’s not the next “new” thing anymore.

Additional structure makes the process more challenging and invigorating for working within the constraints, much like the CAP 25 starters

I would argue that just about every CAP participant has had their fill of frameworks for the time being. CAP25 as a Celebration CAP was an awesome way to blow off steam, but I’d argue that we as a collective community are still recovering from its massive process. I would personally rather CAP27 have merit based on its interesting concept, rather than its framework.

Excitement for Artists who want to submit original and kind of “out there” designs.

This is entirely subjective, but as someone who has submitted more art designs than the OP, I will say that I have no personal interest in drawing an Ultra Beast. More specifically, it makes no difference to me what I draw, just that I’m drawing and enjoying the process.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

I fully agree with Birkal that doing an Ultra Beast framework would likely not result in a fun project for a few reasons.

When looking at doing a framework, using the example of Megas (which I consider to be a precursor to the whole framework idea) and Starters most recently, I think a large part of what makes one interesting is how the framework effects the process itself. The Mega Evolution process meant that we had to consider both a base form and a mega form for usage in CAP, and what possible different roles they may have due to the Mega Evolution, which I would say is/was a fun prospect. Starters was mostly based in flavor, but still offered some interesting opportunities in the herculean task of simultaneously creating 3 CAPs at once, as well as creating a mon with a significantly lower BST than what ends up being used in CAP processes as well as exactly one competitive ability choice. Each framework effects the process and offers new challenges to it, resulting in a vastly different experience for the CAP.

I do not see the same type of potential for UB Framework. A UB actually has significantly more restrictions than Starters did, with its very specific stat limitations and non-existent ability stage, which would absolutely make it a) harder to design and follow a concept with it in mind, and b) result in a much linear process with a higher chance of concept failure and at best only limited concept success. These restrictions mean that a lot of the interesting stat and movepool submissions we see for CAP will be significantly narrowed down in variety, especially in stat as they have to use prime numbers and must hit a very specific BST. Not to mention the complete removal of the Ability stage, which has been a consistently fun and integral part of the CAP Process, even with concepts that have significantly less focus on it.

What would most likely happen after Typing is that the process will become far less focused on actually fulfilling the concept and more on making sure that we fulfill the upteen different checkmarks to making a UB. Not saying that the concept will completely disappear, as it will still be able to exert its influence in stat and will have limelight in typing and movesets, but its very likely it will become a backseat focus.

This UB framework seems less like an actual chance to explore an interesting new idea like a Mega Evolution or Starters, and more like a way to squeeze out a CAP quickly in these last 5-6 months before Sword and Shield's inevitable release. I absolutely do not think it would be a fun process for a lot of the common submitters for various different stages, and it seems unnecessarily restrictive to the point of losing any modicum of unique challenge and becoming tedious.

 

[Deck Knight]

I posted this before the June 5th Direct in part because I wanted to get an initial feel of the community before we got a huge news dump. It is very possible that UBs or something similar will be coming back. Ultra Beasts were originally revealed in the September before the Gen released so it might be too early, but having already been established there may be some comment on it.

On the specifics of the proposal:

I made the specifics initially with the most restrictive model, as that model would have the most impact on the time variable. Limiting to one stage removes a flavor poll. Limiting the ability to Beast Boost removes about a week's worth of ability discussions and polls. The stat / movepool restrictions are flavorful, but arguably too strong or confining in structure rather than discussion. If too rigid a structure is cloying, that can be relaxed and our flavor submitters are incredibly savvy and aware.

I still believe several benefits are retained even by loosening the structure.

1. Greenlight for more focused (or indeed, more balanced ala Celesteela) stat spreads. The assumption of Beast Boost has clear implications for a variety of concepts, as well as an inherent interaction with existing CAPs like Tomohawk which can priority Haze away boosts and Arghonaut with ignores non-Speed boosts. The idea we will not learn anything from such a framework doesn't pass muster, Beast Boost is not a bland ability with only one facet.
2. Art and flavor excitement. One of the hardest things to keep in CAP during the transition of generations is the excitement when you know a new release and leaks and spoilers will be a regular occurrence. The uniqueness of UB designs can retain a higher level of excitement and interest and will have an interesting interplay with stats and all the other discussions. Moreover, there are usually a number of new Pokemon designs released in the months before a generation and UBs will definitely be unique compared to Gen 8 revealed designs like starter Evos or cover legends or random new mons.

To address a few specific things:

Reduced timeframe is a straight downgrade for a project that is built around meaningful conversations. Smaller submission windows also discourage community involvement. I understand the pressure to release before a new generation, but we have to understand that people will have waning interest in CAP months before the release of Gen8, not weeks. Shaving that time doesn’t really address the fact that we’re building for a meta that is on its final legs before being archived.

Much of this generates a self-fulfilling prophecy. "People will have waning interest, therefore doing something unique and exciting will have no effect." Depending on concept we end up having a more focused discussion on a particular stage, Concept Assessment is always one of them and in this case I think the focus will naturally fall on stat limits and movepool.

This actually continues to work at odds (for me) with how ramping up to a new generation should feel. GameFreak will announce their new crazy mechanics over the next few months (mega stones, Z-crystals, Alolan, UB, etc), and it will get people hyped about the new thing. That would make CAP27 feel outdated even as we’re building it. It’s not the next “new” thing anymore.

By definition, which you even argued in your last response, is that there will be waning interest anyway. You have made an inherent disinterest your null hypothesis. I think LucarioOfLegends had a good point that UBs are not directly comparable to Megas mechanic-wise. Megas of course make the process a longer process because it adds additional stages and makes interactions between stages more complicated (in CAP this is often a good, not a bad thing.)

I would argue that just about every CAP participant has had their fill of frameworks for the time being. CAP25 as a Celebration CAP was an awesome way to blow off steam, but I’d argue that we as a collective community are still recovering from its massive process. I would personally rather CAP27 have merit based on its interesting concept, rather than its framework.

CAP25 was exhausting because we basically triplicated the CAP Process. If we are still recovering, it's because the framework that ended up winning drastically increased strain on resources. The UB framework inherent reduces them. It's the difference between night and day, or Moon and Sun if you prefer. More importantly, UB CAP still has a concept stage. It is extremely likely the community will select an interesting concept against the backdrop of a UB CAP.

This is entirely subjective, but as someone who has submitted more art designs than the OP, I will say that I have no personal interest in drawing an Ultra Beast. More specifically, it makes no difference to me what I draw, just that I’m drawing and enjoying the process.

This is a fair criticism. As an observer and not an artist it was out of place for me to speak for "excitement for Artists." However I do know the community at large would take a huge interest in a UB themed art submission stage, and it would be a different sort of design process because the Ultra Beasts as a group look vastly different to the general tone of "most" Pokemon.