It would be fluidly chosen as a part of the movepool stage of the CAP process. This means that it would naturally occur after such things as Stat distribution, abilities, typing, etc. It would be among the last competitive things done for the CAP, but of course before the final movepool submission stage.Dominion said:
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Policy Review Policy Review - Movepools
- Thread starter DougJustDoug
- Start date
- Status
I have a concern regarding imposing ranges on the number of good moves. It DEFINITELY helps us to cut down on the unnecessary fluff that can float into movepools, but it does not necessarily prevent the pokemon from getting overpowered. Just having 150 "good moves" in the movepool might make something unnecessarily bloated, but power comes from how effectively it can use all its moves.
Looking at good moves alone doesn't really give us too much of an idea regarding a pokemon's strength. Efficiency rating also has no bearing on it, and the "most used moves" stat is the same. Taking Doug's definition, "most used" simply means that out of the pokemon's movepool, these moves have been used the most often by that pokemon itself. So even though Lapras has 27 moves that commonly show up across its movesets, it doesn't mean that all of them are very effective. An example of an effective move would be Lucario's CC, or Skarmory's WW.
So to determine a pokemon's overall power, we need to see how well a pokemon can utilize its most common moves, which is a very qualitative measure.
Compare Ursaring and Infernape, for example. Ursaring gets 59 "good moves" to Infernape's 60, making them nearly even. But Ursaring has a much larger 23 "most used" moves to Infernape's 16. And yet, Infernape turns out to be the more versatile of the two attackers because its stats and typing allow it to make far better use of its moves. At the end, what Infernape ends up with is a very versatile set of "excellent moves", not just good moves. Infernape can use any of its top 15 moves reliably, and all to deadly effect, which is what makes it such a varied and feared threat.
Many other pokemon, such as Gallade, suffer the same fate as Ursaring. Gallade, in fact, has one of the most ridiculously "bloated" movepools (it even gets Calm Mind, Signal Beam, Shadow Ball, Vaccum Wave, and Thunderbolt!) and yet fails to make "excellent" use of all but a very small handful.
So I feel that what would make a CAP get too well rounded for its own good is the presence of too many "excellent" moves. And this excellence cannot be measured by the moves themselves, as it is greatly affected by stats, typing, and ability. So, the efficacy of "excellent" moves combined with the number and variety of "excellent" moves available are what you can call "weighted efficacy". So even if we limit a CAP to just 30 good moves, it will still become obscenely overpowered if 20 of them are "excellent". The "good moves" that go unused by a pokemon have no effect whatsoever on its actual usage in competitive play.
So I definitely agree with the limit on "good moves", but we need something more in order to keep it from getting overpowered. In fact, a tendency might arise to cram a lot of very effective moves into the quota of good move options available, so we need to watch for that.
Looking at good moves alone doesn't really give us too much of an idea regarding a pokemon's strength. Efficiency rating also has no bearing on it, and the "most used moves" stat is the same. Taking Doug's definition, "most used" simply means that out of the pokemon's movepool, these moves have been used the most often by that pokemon itself. So even though Lapras has 27 moves that commonly show up across its movesets, it doesn't mean that all of them are very effective. An example of an effective move would be Lucario's CC, or Skarmory's WW.
So to determine a pokemon's overall power, we need to see how well a pokemon can utilize its most common moves, which is a very qualitative measure.
Compare Ursaring and Infernape, for example. Ursaring gets 59 "good moves" to Infernape's 60, making them nearly even. But Ursaring has a much larger 23 "most used" moves to Infernape's 16. And yet, Infernape turns out to be the more versatile of the two attackers because its stats and typing allow it to make far better use of its moves. At the end, what Infernape ends up with is a very versatile set of "excellent moves", not just good moves. Infernape can use any of its top 15 moves reliably, and all to deadly effect, which is what makes it such a varied and feared threat.
Many other pokemon, such as Gallade, suffer the same fate as Ursaring. Gallade, in fact, has one of the most ridiculously "bloated" movepools (it even gets Calm Mind, Signal Beam, Shadow Ball, Vaccum Wave, and Thunderbolt!) and yet fails to make "excellent" use of all but a very small handful.
So I feel that what would make a CAP get too well rounded for its own good is the presence of too many "excellent" moves. And this excellence cannot be measured by the moves themselves, as it is greatly affected by stats, typing, and ability. So, the efficacy of "excellent" moves combined with the number and variety of "excellent" moves available are what you can call "weighted efficacy". So even if we limit a CAP to just 30 good moves, it will still become obscenely overpowered if 20 of them are "excellent". The "good moves" that go unused by a pokemon have no effect whatsoever on its actual usage in competitive play.
So I definitely agree with the limit on "good moves", but we need something more in order to keep it from getting overpowered. In fact, a tendency might arise to cram a lot of very effective moves into the quota of good move options available, so we need to watch for that.
I agree, Shraven, that is the second half of the dilemma that we've been trying to address in these past few pages. Just to clarify, there are three problems that we're facing with movepools.
It's very difficult to address this problem, however, as a lot of the statistics we use to describe it are derived from after-the-fact playtesting - when it's too late to fix anything. There definitely does need to be something, though.
Deck and I were discussing possible solutions, and we came up with something akin to the following:
- CAP movepools are bloated.
- CAP movepools are overpowered.
- CAP movepools are unnecessarily large and excessive.
It's very difficult to address this problem, however, as a lot of the statistics we use to describe it are derived from after-the-fact playtesting - when it's too late to fix anything. There definitely does need to be something, though.
Deck and I were discussing possible solutions, and we came up with something akin to the following:
Each movepool submission must justify a top X number of moves that they think will be useful for the given CAP, where X is defined in this thread, by the TL for each CAP, or maybe by vote for each CAP. Once they justify these X moves as useful, they can not use any other potentially 'great' moves on that movepool.
Thoughts?
One thing would be to look at the CAP's stats and typing and have the TL, as a part of the same process by which allowed and disallowed moves are chosen, make a list of these "useful" moves.
Look at Skarmory, for example: a Pokemon with a lot of power from a small group of moves it utilizes very well. A TL would look at the great defensive typing of Flying/Steel, plus the extreme bulk, and see an effective wall that will force a lot of switches. As such, the TL would list things like Roost, the three entry hazards, the phazing moves, Taunt, Yawn, Aromatherapy/Heal Bell, and any attacks strong enough to deal good damage off the lackluster 80 base Atk. After all, adding just one move in the form of Toxic Spikes or Close Combat would be huge for Skarmory, whereas giving it a ton of "good" moves in the form of elemental beams, etc. would make little difference if any.
How exactly these limits would be implemented is another question. One option would be a point system, where a "useful" move costs more points than a merely "good" move, and useless flavor moves like Water Gun or whatever are free. The TL could assign the Pokemon a number of points based on its needs. For example, Krilowatt and Fidgit would have had a large number of points, while Arghonaut would presumably have had fewer.
The best thing about this approach is that it would allow us to be subjective about how well a certain Pokemon could abuse a certain move. Roost is a much, much better move on Skarmory than it is on Ninjask, even though both are strong OU Pokemon, and our system should reflect that sort of thing.
Just for the purposes of this discussion, I want to emphasize that Pyroak, Syclant, and Revenank's curent movepools are entirely irrelevant. The most dangerous elements of these Pokemon were all decided during our revisions process, and not in the actual movepool threads. Since Rev and Oak are the two most cited examples, I thought it'd be wise to point out there problems are entirely outside out Movepool process. IIRC, only Howl managed to get through as a boosting move in Pyroak's original movepool.
Here's what Pyroak looked like before revisions (repeats are excluded):
Good Levelup: 8 (Wood Hammer, Flare Blitz, Growth, Leech Seed, Synthesis, Energy Ball, Lava Plume, Flash Cannon)
Good Egg: 4 (Aromatherapy, Howl, Leaf Storm, Seed Bomb)
Good TMs: 28
Good Tutors: 13
So Before revisions and after Tutors, Pyroak had 53 "Good" Moves, and lacked Dragon Dance (and high Atk power), making the Rock Head set a very limited threat. 99% of Pyroak's "broken" status came from revisions, not any flaw in our normal process, period.
Here's Rev pre-revisions:
Good Levelup: 11 (Ice Punch, Wrap, Mean Look, Glare, Ancientpower, Shadow Punch, Revenge, Power Whip, Hammer Arm, Curse, Moonlight)
Good Egg: 10 (Shadow Sneak, Mach Punch, Memento, Destiny Bond, Ominous Wind, Pursuit, Knock Off, Night Shade, Nasty Plot, Force Palm)
Good TMs: 25
Good Tutors: 4 (Earth Power, Superpower, Vacuum Wave, Zen Headbutt)
Total Good Moves: 50.
So in point of fact, the only good example of a CAP creation that's overpowered because of the movepool process is probably Strategem, and maybe the original Syclant (which was still largely unfocused, being the first time).
In short, it's mostly the third and first concerns we need to address. If we address those there will be a lot less breathing room for the second concern.
To summarize, I support:
1. Range Limits on "Good Moves" Set by the TL via the same "persuasion process" used to determine BSR categories.
2. Specific submission section in final movepools of the "most competitive moves."
3. "Prove It isn't Superfluous Rule" in final movepools justifying a highly competitive Good Move isn't redundant with other selected highly competitive moves mentioned in aforementioned section.
This should address all three problems with minimal difficulty, complexity, or confusion.
Here's what Pyroak looked like before revisions (repeats are excluded):
Good Levelup: 8 (Wood Hammer, Flare Blitz, Growth, Leech Seed, Synthesis, Energy Ball, Lava Plume, Flash Cannon)
Good Egg: 4 (Aromatherapy, Howl, Leaf Storm, Seed Bomb)
Good TMs: 28
Good Tutors: 13
So Before revisions and after Tutors, Pyroak had 53 "Good" Moves, and lacked Dragon Dance (and high Atk power), making the Rock Head set a very limited threat. 99% of Pyroak's "broken" status came from revisions, not any flaw in our normal process, period.
Here's Rev pre-revisions:
Good Levelup: 11 (Ice Punch, Wrap, Mean Look, Glare, Ancientpower, Shadow Punch, Revenge, Power Whip, Hammer Arm, Curse, Moonlight)
Good Egg: 10 (Shadow Sneak, Mach Punch, Memento, Destiny Bond, Ominous Wind, Pursuit, Knock Off, Night Shade, Nasty Plot, Force Palm)
Good TMs: 25
Good Tutors: 4 (Earth Power, Superpower, Vacuum Wave, Zen Headbutt)
Total Good Moves: 50.
So in point of fact, the only good example of a CAP creation that's overpowered because of the movepool process is probably Strategem, and maybe the original Syclant (which was still largely unfocused, being the first time).
In short, it's mostly the third and first concerns we need to address. If we address those there will be a lot less breathing room for the second concern.
To summarize, I support:
1. Range Limits on "Good Moves" Set by the TL via the same "persuasion process" used to determine BSR categories.
2. Specific submission section in final movepools of the "most competitive moves."
3. "Prove It isn't Superfluous Rule" in final movepools justifying a highly competitive Good Move isn't redundant with other selected highly competitive moves mentioned in aforementioned section.
This should address all three problems with minimal difficulty, complexity, or confusion.
After talking with Deck more on IRC, I have to say that I agree with all 3 of his end conclusions. If the movepool process requires any further tweaking after these adjustments are made, we will know after CAP11 and can do it then. I think this is a great and objective way to address movepools and should ameliorate many of the issues movepools currently face; I support it entirely.
I agree that we should limit the number of total good moves. I'm not convinced that setting ranges is going to do much good. Because, just like BSR -- no TL will ever choose the low range. Even though they probably should occasionally. I fear that every TL will concoct some reason to choose the high range -- just like BSR, pretty much. We act like we are "roughing it" when the TL chooses "Very Good" instead of "Excellent" -- when both of those ranges are really huge. I'm not saying the TL's are bad. It just seems like when push comes to shove, no one ever wants to step up and force anything less than the very best on a CAP in any area.
Which is why here in between CAP's -- when we are all level-headed and looking at stats and stuff -- we actually have a contingent of people that agree "Yeah, our movepools are way too big." But in several weeks, those same people will be clamoring "But <whatever concept> just HAS TO HAVE a good movepool! Otherwise it will be beaten by <whatever>!" So, I'd like to capitalize on this period of lucidity, and put some things in the process that we can't easily overturn when we get in the heat of making our next pokemon.
One other reason I want to set some "harsh limits" on movepools is because I believe the CAP project will push every inch of the rules and still end up with very powerful movepools. That's just the way CAP works. Submitters will always exploit every little nuance of the rules to give their submissions the best chance to win. And when it comes to movepools, the best chance to win is almost invariably tied to the movepool with the most high-powered moves. So we have to set the rules, taking into account that they will be exploited mercilessly.
I don't think a "Prove It isn't Superfluous Rule" is any real limitation at all. People will give half-baked explanations for the their movepools and rely on the TL's to call them on it. In practice, that just won't have any real teeth -- particularly if the moves in question are favored by a few vocal voters. I'm all for persuasion and debate, but I fear this rule will be nothing more than politicking.
Capping good moves is definitely something we should do. I'm just leery of setting ranges. But, perhaps we give it a try and see how it works out.
In my next post, I'm going to present some more movepool stats and add a new proposal in the mix here.
Which is why here in between CAP's -- when we are all level-headed and looking at stats and stuff -- we actually have a contingent of people that agree "Yeah, our movepools are way too big." But in several weeks, those same people will be clamoring "But <whatever concept> just HAS TO HAVE a good movepool! Otherwise it will be beaten by <whatever>!" So, I'd like to capitalize on this period of lucidity, and put some things in the process that we can't easily overturn when we get in the heat of making our next pokemon.
One other reason I want to set some "harsh limits" on movepools is because I believe the CAP project will push every inch of the rules and still end up with very powerful movepools. That's just the way CAP works. Submitters will always exploit every little nuance of the rules to give their submissions the best chance to win. And when it comes to movepools, the best chance to win is almost invariably tied to the movepool with the most high-powered moves. So we have to set the rules, taking into account that they will be exploited mercilessly.
I don't think a "Prove It isn't Superfluous Rule" is any real limitation at all. People will give half-baked explanations for the their movepools and rely on the TL's to call them on it. In practice, that just won't have any real teeth -- particularly if the moves in question are favored by a few vocal voters. I'm all for persuasion and debate, but I fear this rule will be nothing more than politicking.
Capping good moves is definitely something we should do. I'm just leery of setting ranges. But, perhaps we give it a try and see how it works out.
In my next post, I'm going to present some more movepool stats and add a new proposal in the mix here.
Doug, you are absolutely right. I'd like to a teeter-totter effect with BSR and this new idea but it most likely will never happen. Such as if one is made large, the other is affected by it (most likely negatively).
We must also not forget limiting certain moves based on the CAP in general. Taking CAP10 for example, bug moves were a hot debate due to them hitting Celebi like a truck (A pokemon that threatened CAP10 no matter what). If this concept is put to use, then will it be affected or affect the process of banning certain moves on newer CAPs. Such as if move X is banned for whatever reason, does that give the TL the right to make the movepool limit higher? or visa versa.
Simply implementing this idea into the process wouldn't have much effect if it wasn't completely entwined into the process or atleast was affected in some way by other choices. This would help balance out other parts of the creation process.
We must also not forget limiting certain moves based on the CAP in general. Taking CAP10 for example, bug moves were a hot debate due to them hitting Celebi like a truck (A pokemon that threatened CAP10 no matter what). If this concept is put to use, then will it be affected or affect the process of banning certain moves on newer CAPs. Such as if move X is banned for whatever reason, does that give the TL the right to make the movepool limit higher? or visa versa.
Simply implementing this idea into the process wouldn't have much effect if it wasn't completely entwined into the process or atleast was affected in some way by other choices. This would help balance out other parts of the creation process.
Ok, so I wrote some more programs and ran some more stats. Here is the motivation behind this latest round of research...
If we simply cap the total good moves in a movepool, I think any savvy movepool submitter will respond by eliminating a bunch of "good moves that aren't very good on this pokemon". Basically, they will cut down the number of "official good moves" -- but in reality, they will not reduce the "true good moves" on the pokemon. Does that make sense?
Movepool submitters will circumvent the rules by making their movepools more efficient. The topic of efficiency has been tossed around quite a bit in this thread, but we really haven't come up with a workable solution for it. All of the solutions would require some level of subjective evaluation of which good moves are "true good moves" for the pokemon we are creating. That's a direction I'd rather avoid. I started this whole PR in an attempt to use objective statistics to drive some process rule changes, and I want to keep to that goal as much as possible.
So, I was thinking of a different way to use some other stats to reduce movepool submitters ability to abuse movepool limits.
The good move limits we are considering are based on statistical averages of good moves in the movepools of top pokemon. In those ingame movepools, there are certain trends that pertain to good moves, that we could force all CAP movepool creators to observe. One key point here -- we would not enforce the trends because our movepools should "fit in the game" or any other flavor reasoning. This is an effort to increase the number of objective criteria required for the movepool, thus reducing the ability for movepool creators to "game the system" by targeting good moves selectively. There will be a secondary benefit that CAP movepools will look more like a "real movepool" -- but that is mostly a side-effect.
So I ran some reports to answer two questions:
Move Combinations
Every pokemon player knows that certain types of pokemon get certain types of moves, and that certain moves always appear together in movepools. Yes, there are always exceptions to any rule. But for example, no one fundamentally disagrees with the general statements "Electric types get Thunderbolt", "Fire Blast and Flamethrower go together", or "Water types get Surf". It may be less obvious to all but fanboy geeks that "Pokemon that get Air Cutter also get Ominous Wind". It gets harder to achieve general consensus when you say "Water types get <whatever ice move>" or "Fighting types get <whatever rock move>". But, amongst the competitive pokemon in the game, I suspected there were many clear statistical trends when it comes to pairing certain types with certain moves, and pairing certain moves with each other. So I wrote a program to find out for sure.
I wrote a program that reported any Type-Move pairing that met the following criteria:
Here's the list of Type-Move Combinations that meet the criteria above:
Here's the list of Move-Move Combinations that meet the criteria above:
So those are the ironclad or near-ironclad trends of good moves amongst competitive pokemon movepools. I really don't want to argue why these trends are in place. Some of these combos are driven by pokemon morphology, others may be coincidental. But whatever the reason -- these have a 90% occurrence rate or higher ingame for good pokemon, and could serve as a great concrete base for movepool creators to manage. Not for flavor reasons, but mainly to prevent gaming the limits.
My proposal is that in addition to a limit on the total number of good moves -- that we also force all movepool creators to adhere to these move combinations (where applicable, in the case of the typing combos) in their final movepool. We can allow the TL to give some special exemptions in certain extreme cases. But, otherwise, we enforce the combinations above as an assumption in every movepool discussion and submission. These moves WOULD count against the total good moves allowed in a movepool -- that's the whole point here.
I realize some of these combo requirements may be controversial, others not so much. For example, I doubt many people will really care that every Psychic gets Sunny Day. On all but the most specialized pokemon, Sunny Day is baggage and wastes a "good move slot". That's a good thing, for purposes of this rule. It forces the movepool creators to include a move, and thereby forces the final movepool to take shape in a way that is more consistent with the statistical averages that generated these CAP movepool limitations in the first place (see the OP). I really hope this point sinks in with readers here -- because I have a feeling a lot of people may mistakenly think that I want CAP movepools to be more like real pokemon movepools because I'm a game canon fanboy. And that's not true. Well, it is true... but not in this case.
On the other hand, I was a bit shocked to see that every competitive Grass pokemon gets Swords Dance. I can envision that raising eyebrows as a "requirement" on every future grass CAP pokemon. If it is simply too extreme, the TL can reject it. But my preference would be for us to pretty much "set this in stone" and plan around it. My reasoning is this -- If Swords Dance is not broken on ANY of the existing good Grass Pokemon in the game -- then what the hell are we doing on our CAP that would suddenly make it so broken? If it really is broken, then perhaps the problem is with the other aspects of the CAP, not the fact that it can Swords Dance.
I think the Move-Move combos are less controversial, but there may be people that get bent out of shape on stuff like Discharge and Signal Beam being paired together. If you want Celebi to counter something, this could be an issue for example. But for the most part, I think the Move pairs are inconsequential except for filling out the movepool (which is a good thing) or they are consistent with general competitive expectation. Others may disagree.
I realize there are sometimes reasons to exclude certain moves that are "always on a certain type" or that "always go together" -- but I think we should consider those to be extreme exceptions, not unlike making a new move entirely. Because, whether it is collectively acknowledged or not, the move trends listed above DO represent a facet of playing the standard metagame.
For example, it is common practice in teambuilding and standard play, for Dragons to avoid Water pokemon. Not because Water is particularly problematic for Dragons -- but because every Water type in the game can carry a potent Ice move. And if Abomasnow hits the field before or after that Watermon shows up, you likely assume that the Watermon is packing Blizzard instead of Ice Beam -- because everything that gets Ice Beam also can carry Blizzard. If we make a Water pokemon without said Ice moves (which DK tried to do with Krillowatt) -- I think we should regard that as an "extreme departure" from the standard metagame. I think we should consider that long and hard, because bucking those trends is more pervasive than just making CAP X better/worse against Pokemon Y. It shifts CAP away from the standard strategies and tactics of OU pokemon, and therefore reduces accessibility, diminishes the value of what we learn, etc.
I don't want to be too dramatic about it, because for most of the moves I listed above -- people aren't going to care too much. Would you really give a darn if a new Rock pokemon didn't get Mud-Slap? Probably not. But some of those other trends may not be so easy to swallow automatically on every CAP. But, what I'd like to do is put these restrictions in place and see how it works. I think it will reduce some exploitation by movepool submitters by reducing their leverage to create "perfectly optimized" movepools. It may also make CAP pokemon more playable in the competitive pokemon metagame, because the "good move profile" will be statistically more consistent with what competitive players consciously or subconsciously expect.
If we simply cap the total good moves in a movepool, I think any savvy movepool submitter will respond by eliminating a bunch of "good moves that aren't very good on this pokemon". Basically, they will cut down the number of "official good moves" -- but in reality, they will not reduce the "true good moves" on the pokemon. Does that make sense?
Movepool submitters will circumvent the rules by making their movepools more efficient. The topic of efficiency has been tossed around quite a bit in this thread, but we really haven't come up with a workable solution for it. All of the solutions would require some level of subjective evaluation of which good moves are "true good moves" for the pokemon we are creating. That's a direction I'd rather avoid. I started this whole PR in an attempt to use objective statistics to drive some process rule changes, and I want to keep to that goal as much as possible.
So, I was thinking of a different way to use some other stats to reduce movepool submitters ability to abuse movepool limits.
The good move limits we are considering are based on statistical averages of good moves in the movepools of top pokemon. In those ingame movepools, there are certain trends that pertain to good moves, that we could force all CAP movepool creators to observe. One key point here -- we would not enforce the trends because our movepools should "fit in the game" or any other flavor reasoning. This is an effort to increase the number of objective criteria required for the movepool, thus reducing the ability for movepool creators to "game the system" by targeting good moves selectively. There will be a secondary benefit that CAP movepools will look more like a "real movepool" -- but that is mostly a side-effect.
So I ran some reports to answer two questions:
- What good moves are always in the movepools of certain types of good pokemon?
- What pairs of good moves always appear in tandem in a given movepool?
Move Combinations
Every pokemon player knows that certain types of pokemon get certain types of moves, and that certain moves always appear together in movepools. Yes, there are always exceptions to any rule. But for example, no one fundamentally disagrees with the general statements "Electric types get Thunderbolt", "Fire Blast and Flamethrower go together", or "Water types get Surf". It may be less obvious to all but fanboy geeks that "Pokemon that get Air Cutter also get Ominous Wind". It gets harder to achieve general consensus when you say "Water types get <whatever ice move>" or "Fighting types get <whatever rock move>". But, amongst the competitive pokemon in the game, I suspected there were many clear statistical trends when it comes to pairing certain types with certain moves, and pairing certain moves with each other. So I wrote a program to find out for sure.
I wrote a program that reported any Type-Move pairing that met the following criteria:
And it reports any Move-Move pairing that met the following criteria:
I removed the following moves from the good moves list for these reports, because they are contained in so many movepools that they spam up the lists. And I believe the movepool guide virtually guarantees their inclusion in most CAP movepools anyway.
Code:
Hidden Power
Protect
Rest
Toxic
Substitute
Facade
Return
Hyper Beam
Sleep Talk
Giga Impact
Swagger
Frustration
Endure
Attract
Code:
+----------+------------+--------------+------------+--------------+
| Type | Type Count | Move | Pair Count | Pair Percent |
+----------+------------+--------------+------------+--------------+
| bug | 11 | Double-edge | 11 | 100% |
| bug | 11 | Sunny Day | 11 | 100% |
| dark | 11 | Dark Pulse | 11 | 100% |
| dark | 11 | Mud-Slap | 10 | 91% |
| dark | 11 | Payback | 10 | 91% |
| dark | 11 | Sunny Day | 10 | 91% |
| dark | 11 | Taunt | 10 | 91% |
| dragon | 12 | Aerial Ace | 11 | 92% |
| dragon | 12 | Draco Meteor | 12 | 100% |
| dragon | 12 | Dragon Claw | 11 | 92% |
| dragon | 12 | Dragon Pulse | 12 | 100% |
| dragon | 12 | Earthquake | 11 | 92% |
| dragon | 12 | Mud-Slap | 11 | 92% |
| dragon | 12 | Outrage | 12 | 100% |
| dragon | 12 | Rain Dance | 11 | 92% |
| dragon | 12 | Sunny Day | 11 | 92% |
| dragon | 12 | Swift | 12 | 100% |
| electric | 18 | Charge Beam | 18 | 100% |
| electric | 18 | Discharge | 17 | 94% |
| electric | 18 | Light Screen | 17 | 94% |
| electric | 18 | Rain Dance | 18 | 100% |
| electric | 18 | Shock Wave | 18 | 100% |
| electric | 18 | Signal Beam | 18 | 100% |
| electric | 18 | Swift | 17 | 94% |
| electric | 18 | Thunder | 18 | 100% |
| electric | 18 | Thunder Wave | 18 | 100% |
| electric | 18 | Thunderbolt | 18 | 100% |
| fighting | 15 | Brick Break | 15 | 100% |
| fighting | 15 | Bulk Up | 15 | 100% |
| fighting | 15 | Focus Blast | 14 | 93% |
| fighting | 15 | Focus Punch | 14 | 93% |
| fighting | 15 | Mud-Slap | 14 | 93% |
| fighting | 15 | Rock Slide | 15 | 100% |
| fighting | 15 | Rock Smash | 15 | 100% |
| fighting | 15 | Sunny Day | 14 | 93% |
| fighting | 15 | Vacuum Wave | 15 | 100% |
| fire | 13 | Fire Blast | 13 | 100% |
| fire | 13 | Flamethrower | 13 | 100% |
| fire | 13 | Heat Wave | 13 | 100% |
| fire | 13 | Mud-Slap | 12 | 92% |
| fire | 13 | Overheat | 13 | 100% |
| fire | 13 | Rock Smash | 12 | 92% |
| fire | 13 | Solarbeam | 13 | 100% |
| fire | 13 | Sunny Day | 13 | 100% |
| fire | 13 | Will-o-wisp | 13 | 100% |
| flying | 26 | Double-edge | 24 | 92% |
| flying | 26 | Sunny Day | 25 | 96% |
| flying | 26 | Swift | 24 | 92% |
| ghost | 15 | Dream Eater | 15 | 100% |
| ghost | 15 | Ominous Wind | 14 | 93% |
| ghost | 15 | Psych Up | 14 | 93% |
| ghost | 15 | Rain Dance | 14 | 93% |
| ghost | 15 | Shadow Ball | 15 | 100% |
| ghost | 15 | Sucker Punch | 14 | 93% |
| ghost | 15 | Sunny Day | 14 | 93% |
| ghost | 15 | Trick | 14 | 93% |
| ghost | 15 | Will-o-wisp | 14 | 93% |
| grass | 18 | Energy Ball | 18 | 100% |
| grass | 18 | Giga Drain | 18 | 100% |
| grass | 18 | Grass Knot | 18 | 100% |
| grass | 18 | Seed Bomb | 18 | 100% |
| grass | 18 | Solarbeam | 18 | 100% |
| grass | 18 | Swords Dance | 18 | 100% |
| grass | 18 | Synthesis | 18 | 100% |
| ground | 21 | Body Slam | 19 | 90% |
| ground | 21 | Double-edge | 20 | 95% |
| ground | 21 | Earth Power | 21 | 100% |
| ground | 21 | Earthquake | 21 | 100% |
| ground | 21 | Mud-Slap | 21 | 100% |
| ground | 21 | Rock Slide | 21 | 100% |
| ground | 21 | Rock Smash | 21 | 100% |
| ground | 21 | Sandstorm | 20 | 95% |
| ground | 21 | Stone Edge | 20 | 95% |
| ice | 11 | Avalanche | 11 | 100% |
| ice | 11 | Blizzard | 11 | 100% |
| ice | 11 | Double-edge | 11 | 100% |
| ice | 11 | Hail | 11 | 100% |
| ice | 11 | Ice Beam | 11 | 100% |
| ice | 11 | Icy Wind | 11 | 100% |
| ice | 11 | Rain Dance | 11 | 100% |
| normal | 21 | Double-edge | 20 | 95% |
| normal | 21 | Rain Dance | 21 | 100% |
| normal | 21 | Sunny Day | 21 | 100% |
| poison | 13 | Sludge Bomb | 13 | 100% |
| psychic | 28 | Dream Eater | 26 | 93% |
| psychic | 28 | Grass Knot | 26 | 93% |
| psychic | 28 | Light Screen | 27 | 96% |
| psychic | 28 | Psych Up | 27 | 96% |
| psychic | 28 | Psychic | 27 | 96% |
| psychic | 28 | Rain Dance | 26 | 93% |
| psychic | 28 | Sunny Day | 26 | 93% |
| psychic | 28 | Trick | 26 | 93% |
| psychic | 28 | Zen Headbutt | 26 | 93% |
| rock | 11 | Ancientpower | 11 | 100% |
| rock | 11 | Double-edge | 11 | 100% |
| rock | 11 | Earth Power | 11 | 100% |
| rock | 11 | Mud-Slap | 10 | 91% |
| rock | 11 | Rock Polish | 11 | 100% |
| rock | 11 | Rock Slide | 11 | 100% |
| rock | 11 | Rock Smash | 11 | 100% |
| rock | 11 | Sandstorm | 11 | 100% |
| rock | 11 | Stealth Rock | 11 | 100% |
| rock | 11 | Stone Edge | 11 | 100% |
| steel | 15 | Flash Cannon | 15 | 100% |
| steel | 15 | Iron Defense | 14 | 93% |
| steel | 15 | Sunny Day | 14 | 93% |
| water | 33 | Blizzard | 33 | 100% |
| water | 33 | Hail | 32 | 97% |
| water | 33 | Ice Beam | 33 | 100% |
| water | 33 | Icy Wind | 32 | 97% |
| water | 33 | Rain Dance | 33 | 100% |
| water | 33 | Surf | 33 | 100% |
| water | 33 | Water Pulse | 33 | 100% |
+----------+------------+--------------+------------+--------------+
113 rows
Code:
+--------------+----------+--------------+------------+--------------+
| Move 1 | M1 Count | Move 2 | Pair Count | Pair Percent |
+--------------+----------+--------------+------------+--------------+
| Aerial Ace | 76 | Double-edge | 69 | 91% |
| Aerial Ace | 76 | Sunny Day | 73 | 96% |
| Air Cutter | 26 | Aerial Ace | 24 | 92% |
| Air Cutter | 26 | Ominous Wind | 26 | 100% |
| Air Cutter | 26 | Sunny Day | 26 | 100% |
| Air Cutter | 26 | Swift | 26 | 100% |
| Amnesia | 31 | Double-edge | 29 | 94% |
| Amnesia | 31 | Mud-Slap | 29 | 94% |
| Ancientpower | 50 | Mud-Slap | 46 | 92% |
| Aqua Tail | 42 | Double-edge | 38 | 90% |
| Aqua Tail | 42 | Mud-Slap | 38 | 90% |
| Aqua Tail | 42 | Rain Dance | 41 | 98% |
| Aqua Tail | 42 | Rock Smash | 38 | 90% |
| Avalanche | 40 | Blizzard | 37 | 93% |
| Avalanche | 40 | Double-edge | 38 | 95% |
| Avalanche | 40 | Ice Beam | 39 | 98% |
| Avalanche | 40 | Rain Dance | 40 | 100% |
| Baton Pass | 28 | Sunny Day | 26 | 93% |
| Bite | 36 | Double-edge | 34 | 94% |
| Bite | 36 | Mud-Slap | 33 | 92% |
| Blizzard | 73 | Ice Beam | 72 | 99% |
| Blizzard | 73 | Icy Wind | 66 | 90% |
| Blizzard | 73 | Rain Dance | 72 | 99% |
| Body Slam | 118 | Double-edge | 115 | 97% |
| Body Slam | 118 | Mud-Slap | 108 | 92% |
| Brick Break | 85 | Mud-Slap | 78 | 92% |
| Brick Break | 85 | Rock Smash | 82 | 96% |
| Brine | 29 | Blizzard | 28 | 97% |
| Brine | 29 | Hail | 28 | 97% |
| Brine | 29 | Ice Beam | 28 | 97% |
| Brine | 29 | Icy Wind | 27 | 93% |
| Brine | 29 | Rain Dance | 29 | 100% |
| Brine | 29 | Surf | 29 | 100% |
| Brine | 29 | Water Pulse | 28 | 97% |
| Bulk Up | 26 | Brick Break | 26 | 100% |
| Bulk Up | 26 | Focus Blast | 24 | 92% |
| Bulk Up | 26 | Mud-Slap | 24 | 92% |
| Bulk Up | 26 | Rock Slide | 25 | 96% |
| Bulk Up | 26 | Rock Smash | 26 | 100% |
| Bulk Up | 26 | Sunny Day | 24 | 92% |
| Calm Mind | 47 | Psych Up | 45 | 96% |
| Calm Mind | 47 | Rain Dance | 45 | 96% |
| Calm Mind | 47 | Shadow Ball | 43 | 91% |
| Calm Mind | 47 | Sunny Day | 44 | 94% |
| Charge Beam | 57 | Rain Dance | 56 | 98% |
| Charge Beam | 57 | Shock Wave | 53 | 93% |
| Charge Beam | 57 | Thunder Wave | 54 | 95% |
| Charm | 38 | Mud-Slap | 36 | 95% |
| Counter | 75 | Double-edge | 71 | 95% |
| Counter | 75 | Rock Smash | 68 | 91% |
| Crunch | 31 | Mud-Slap | 30 | 97% |
| Crunch | 31 | Roar | 28 | 90% |
| Crunch | 31 | Rock Smash | 29 | 94% |
| Curse | 45 | Double-edge | 41 | 91% |
| Dark Pulse | 38 | Sunny Day | 36 | 95% |
| Defense Curl | 56 | Double-edge | 53 | 95% |
| Dig | 75 | Mud-Slap | 71 | 95% |
| Dig | 75 | Rock Smash | 69 | 92% |
| Discharge | 20 | Charge Beam | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Rain Dance | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Shock Wave | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Signal Beam | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Swift | 19 | 95% |
| Discharge | 20 | Thunder | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Thunder Wave | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Thunderbolt | 20 | 100% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Aerial Ace | 20 | 100% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Dragon Pulse | 20 | 100% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Earthquake | 20 | 100% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Mud-Slap | 19 | 95% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Roar | 19 | 95% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Sunny Day | 19 | 95% |
| Dragon Pulse | 33 | Roar | 30 | 91% |
| Drain Punch | 28 | Focus Punch | 27 | 96% |
| Drain Punch | 28 | Sunny Day | 28 | 100% |
| Dream Eater | 64 | Psych Up | 60 | 94% |
| Dream Eater | 64 | Rain Dance | 59 | 92% |
| Dream Eater | 64 | Shadow Ball | 58 | 91% |
| Dream Eater | 64 | Sunny Day | 61 | 95% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Body Slam | 58 | 94% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Brick Break | 60 | 97% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Counter | 56 | 90% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Double-edge | 60 | 97% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Focus Blast | 57 | 92% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Focus Punch | 59 | 95% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Mud-Slap | 58 | 94% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Rock Smash | 58 | 94% |
| Earth Power | 44 | Mud-Slap | 43 | 98% |
| Earth Power | 44 | Rock Smash | 41 | 93% |
| Earthquake | 93 | Mud-Slap | 86 | 92% |
| Earthquake | 93 | Rock Smash | 91 | 98% |
| Endeavor | 26 | Mud-Slap | 25 | 96% |
| Energy Ball | 42 | Sunny Day | 39 | 93% |
| Fire Blast | 50 | Flamethrower | 50 | 100% |
| Fire Blast | 50 | Mud-Slap | 46 | 92% |
| Fire Blast | 50 | Rock Smash | 47 | 94% |
| Fire Blast | 50 | Sunny Day | 49 | 98% |
| Fire Punch | 52 | Mud-Slap | 48 | 92% |
| Fire Punch | 52 | Sunny Day | 50 | 96% |
| Fire Punch | 52 | Thunderpunch | 52 | 100% |
| Flail | 32 | Double-edge | 30 | 94% |
| Flamethrower | 52 | Fire Blast | 50 | 96% |
| Flamethrower | 52 | Mud-Slap | 48 | 92% |
| Flamethrower | 52 | Rock Smash | 48 | 92% |
| Flamethrower | 52 | Sunny Day | 49 | 94% |
| Fly | 24 | Aerial Ace | 23 | 96% |
| Fly | 24 | Double-edge | 22 | 92% |
| Fly | 24 | Mud-Slap | 22 | 92% |
| Fly | 24 | Steel Wing | 22 | 92% |
| Fly | 24 | Sunny Day | 24 | 100% |
| Fly | 24 | Swift | 24 | 100% |
| Focus Blast | 72 | Brick Break | 69 | 96% |
| Focus Blast | 72 | Focus Punch | 68 | 94% |
| Focus Blast | 72 | Mud-Slap | 66 | 92% |
| Focus Blast | 72 | Rock Smash | 67 | 93% |
| Focus Punch | 73 | Brick Break | 70 | 96% |
| Focus Punch | 73 | Focus Blast | 68 | 93% |
| Focus Punch | 73 | Mud-Slap | 67 | 92% |
| Focus Punch | 73 | Rock Smash | 69 | 95% |
| Foresight | 23 | Double-edge | 21 | 91% |
| Gyro Ball | 25 | Rollout | 23 | 92% |
| Hail | 49 | Blizzard | 49 | 100% |
| Hail | 49 | Ice Beam | 49 | 100% |
| Hail | 49 | Icy Wind | 48 | 98% |
| Hail | 49 | Rain Dance | 49 | 100% |
| Hail | 49 | Water Pulse | 46 | 94% |
| Heat Wave | 26 | Double-edge | 24 | 92% |
| Heat Wave | 26 | Sunny Day | 26 | 100% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Blizzard | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Double-edge | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Hail | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Ice Beam | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Icy Wind | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Rain Dance | 26 | 100% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Surf | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Water Pulse | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Waterfall | 24 | 92% |
| Ice Beam | 79 | Blizzard | 72 | 91% |
| Ice Beam | 79 | Rain Dance | 78 | 99% |
| Ice Punch | 60 | Mud-Slap | 57 | 95% |
| Ice Punch | 60 | Rain Dance | 59 | 98% |
| Icy Wind | 85 | Rain Dance | 83 | 98% |
| Iron Head | 41 | Double-edge | 37 | 90% |
| Iron Head | 41 | Rock Smash | 37 | 90% |
| Iron Tail | 88 | Mud-Slap | 80 | 91% |
| Last Resort | 32 | Mud-Slap | 30 | 94% |
| Last Resort | 32 | Sunny Day | 31 | 97% |
| Light Screen | 65 | Rain Dance | 60 | 92% |
| Night Slash | 23 | Aerial Ace | 22 | 96% |
| Night Slash | 23 | Double-edge | 22 | 96% |
| Night Slash | 23 | Sunny Day | 21 | 91% |
| Ominous Wind | 44 | Sunny Day | 43 | 98% |
| Outrage | 37 | Double-edge | 34 | 92% |
| Outrage | 37 | Earthquake | 34 | 92% |
| Outrage | 37 | Rock Smash | 34 | 92% |
| Overheat | 21 | Flamethrower | 19 | 90% |
| Overheat | 21 | Mud-Slap | 20 | 95% |
| Overheat | 21 | Sunny Day | 20 | 95% |
| Poison Jab | 35 | Mud-Slap | 32 | 91% |
| Psych Up | 88 | Sunny Day | 80 | 91% |
| Pursuit | 38 | Sunny Day | 37 | 97% |
| Quick Attack | 36 | Swift | 35 | 97% |
| Reflect | 49 | Sunny Day | 45 | 92% |
| Refresh | 35 | Double-edge | 34 | 97% |
| Reversal | 20 | Double-edge | 19 | 95% |
| Reversal | 20 | Rock Smash | 19 | 95% |
| Roar | 67 | Mud-Slap | 63 | 94% |
| Roar | 67 | Rock Smash | 62 | 93% |
| Rock Polish | 25 | Double-edge | 24 | 96% |
| Rock Polish | 25 | Earthquake | 23 | 92% |
| Rock Polish | 25 | Rock Slide | 25 | 100% |
| Rock Polish | 25 | Rock Smash | 25 | 100% |
| Rock Polish | 25 | Sandstorm | 24 | 96% |
| Rock Polish | 25 | Stealth Rock | 24 | 96% |
| Rock Slide | 91 | Mud-Slap | 85 | 93% |
| Rock Slide | 91 | Rock Smash | 91 | 100% |
| Rock Smash | 129 | Mud-Slap | 117 | 91% |
| Roost | 28 | Aerial Ace | 28 | 100% |
| Roost | 28 | Double-edge | 28 | 100% |
| Roost | 28 | Sunny Day | 28 | 100% |
| Roost | 28 | Swift | 28 | 100% |
| Sandstorm | 70 | Mud-Slap | 64 | 91% |
| Seed Bomb | 27 | Double-edge | 25 | 93% |
| Seed Bomb | 27 | Mud-Slap | 25 | 93% |
| Seed Bomb | 27 | Sunny Day | 25 | 93% |
| Seismic Toss | 62 | Body Slam | 60 | 97% |
| Seismic Toss | 62 | Brick Break | 60 | 97% |
| Seismic Toss | 62 | Counter | 58 | 94% |
| Seismic Toss | 62 | Double-edge | 62 | 100% |
| Seismic Toss | 62 | Focus Punch | 58 | 94% |
| Seismic Toss | 62 | Mud-Slap | 56 | 90% |
| Seismic Toss | 62 | Rock Smash | 58 | 94% |
| Shadow Ball | 87 | Rain Dance | 83 | 95% |
| Shadow Ball | 87 | Sunny Day | 81 | 93% |
| Shadow Claw | 39 | Mud-Slap | 37 | 95% |
| Shadow Claw | 39 | Sunny Day | 37 | 95% |
| Shock Wave | 81 | Rain Dance | 78 | 96% |
| Shock Wave | 81 | Thunder | 73 | 90% |
| Shock Wave | 81 | Thunderbolt | 75 | 93% |
| Signal Beam | 68 | Rain Dance | 65 | 96% |
| Skill Swap | 34 | Dream Eater | 32 | 94% |
| Skill Swap | 34 | Psych Up | 33 | 97% |
| Skill Swap | 34 | Psychic | 34 | 100% |
| Skill Swap | 34 | Rain Dance | 32 | 94% |
| Skill Swap | 34 | Shadow Ball | 31 | 91% |
| Skill Swap | 34 | Sunny Day | 32 | 94% |
| Solarbeam | 68 | Sunny Day | 66 | 97% |
| Stealth Rock | 53 | Mud-Slap | 49 | 92% |
| Stealth Rock | 53 | Rock Smash | 48 | 91% |
| Steel Wing | 27 | Aerial Ace | 27 | 100% |
| Steel Wing | 27 | Double-edge | 25 | 93% |
| Steel Wing | 27 | Roost | 25 | 93% |
| Steel Wing | 27 | Sunny Day | 26 | 96% |
| Steel Wing | 27 | Swift | 26 | 96% |
| Stone Edge | 59 | Earthquake | 55 | 93% |
| Stone Edge | 59 | Mud-Slap | 54 | 92% |
| Stone Edge | 59 | Rock Slide | 57 | 97% |
| Stone Edge | 59 | Rock Smash | 59 | 100% |
| Sucker Punch | 32 | Sunny Day | 29 | 91% |
| Superpower | 36 | Double-edge | 36 | 100% |
| Superpower | 36 | Mud-Slap | 34 | 94% |
| Superpower | 36 | Rock Smash | 34 | 94% |
| Surf | 57 | Double-edge | 52 | 91% |
| Surf | 57 | Ice Beam | 53 | 93% |
| Surf | 57 | Rain Dance | 57 | 100% |
| Synthesis | 20 | Energy Ball | 20 | 100% |
| Synthesis | 20 | Giga Drain | 20 | 100% |
| Synthesis | 20 | Grass Knot | 20 | 100% |
| Synthesis | 20 | Seed Bomb | 20 | 100% |
| Synthesis | 20 | Solarbeam | 20 | 100% |
| Synthesis | 20 | Swords Dance | 20 | 100% |
| Thunder | 77 | Rain Dance | 75 | 97% |
| Thunder | 77 | Shock Wave | 73 | 95% |
| Thunder | 77 | Thunderbolt | 77 | 100% |
| Thunder Wave | 73 | Rain Dance | 71 | 97% |
| Thunder Wave | 73 | Shock Wave | 66 | 90% |
| Thunderbolt | 80 | Rain Dance | 77 | 96% |
| Thunderbolt | 80 | Shock Wave | 75 | 94% |
| Thunderbolt | 80 | Thunder | 77 | 96% |
| Thunderpunch | 62 | Mud-Slap | 58 | 94% |
| Thunderpunch | 62 | Sunny Day | 57 | 92% |
| Tickle | 21 | Body Slam | 20 | 95% |
| Tickle | 21 | Double-edge | 20 | 95% |
| Tickle | 21 | Mud-Slap | 19 | 90% |
| Trick | 47 | Dream Eater | 45 | 96% |
| Trick | 47 | Psych Up | 45 | 96% |
| Trick | 47 | Rain Dance | 46 | 98% |
| Trick | 47 | Shadow Ball | 46 | 98% |
| Trick | 47 | Sunny Day | 45 | 96% |
| Trick Room | 31 | Dream Eater | 29 | 94% |
| Trick Room | 31 | Psych Up | 31 | 100% |
| Trick Room | 31 | Psychic | 29 | 94% |
| Trick Room | 31 | Rain Dance | 30 | 97% |
| Trick Room | 31 | Sunny Day | 30 | 97% |
| Trick Room | 31 | Trick | 28 | 90% |
| U-turn | 27 | Sunny Day | 26 | 96% |
| U-turn | 27 | Swift | 26 | 96% |
| Water Pulse | 76 | Rain Dance | 74 | 97% |
| Waterfall | 36 | Blizzard | 34 | 94% |
| Waterfall | 36 | Ice Beam | 36 | 100% |
| Waterfall | 36 | Icy Wind | 36 | 100% |
| Waterfall | 36 | Rain Dance | 36 | 100% |
| Waterfall | 36 | Surf | 36 | 100% |
| Waterfall | 36 | Water Pulse | 36 | 100% |
| Will-o-wisp | 35 | Sunny Day | 35 | 100% |
| Wish | 23 | Body Slam | 21 | 91% |
| Wish | 23 | Double-edge | 23 | 100% |
| Wish | 23 | Mud-Slap | 21 | 91% |
| Wish | 23 | Rain Dance | 22 | 96% |
| Wish | 23 | Sunny Day | 21 | 91% |
| X-Scissor | 20 | Sunny Day | 19 | 95% |
| X-Scissor | 20 | Swords Dance | 19 | 95% |
| Yawn | 27 | Mud-Slap | 26 | 96% |
| Zen Headbutt | 51 | Rain Dance | 46 | 90% |
| Zen Headbutt | 51 | Sunny Day | 48 | 94% |
+--------------+----------+--------------+------------+--------------+
275 rowsMy proposal is that in addition to a limit on the total number of good moves -- that we also force all movepool creators to adhere to these move combinations (where applicable, in the case of the typing combos) in their final movepool. We can allow the TL to give some special exemptions in certain extreme cases. But, otherwise, we enforce the combinations above as an assumption in every movepool discussion and submission. These moves WOULD count against the total good moves allowed in a movepool -- that's the whole point here.
I realize some of these combo requirements may be controversial, others not so much. For example, I doubt many people will really care that every Psychic gets Sunny Day. On all but the most specialized pokemon, Sunny Day is baggage and wastes a "good move slot". That's a good thing, for purposes of this rule. It forces the movepool creators to include a move, and thereby forces the final movepool to take shape in a way that is more consistent with the statistical averages that generated these CAP movepool limitations in the first place (see the OP). I really hope this point sinks in with readers here -- because I have a feeling a lot of people may mistakenly think that I want CAP movepools to be more like real pokemon movepools because I'm a game canon fanboy. And that's not true. Well, it is true... but not in this case.
On the other hand, I was a bit shocked to see that every competitive Grass pokemon gets Swords Dance. I can envision that raising eyebrows as a "requirement" on every future grass CAP pokemon. If it is simply too extreme, the TL can reject it. But my preference would be for us to pretty much "set this in stone" and plan around it. My reasoning is this -- If Swords Dance is not broken on ANY of the existing good Grass Pokemon in the game -- then what the hell are we doing on our CAP that would suddenly make it so broken? If it really is broken, then perhaps the problem is with the other aspects of the CAP, not the fact that it can Swords Dance.
I think the Move-Move combos are less controversial, but there may be people that get bent out of shape on stuff like Discharge and Signal Beam being paired together. If you want Celebi to counter something, this could be an issue for example. But for the most part, I think the Move pairs are inconsequential except for filling out the movepool (which is a good thing) or they are consistent with general competitive expectation. Others may disagree.
I realize there are sometimes reasons to exclude certain moves that are "always on a certain type" or that "always go together" -- but I think we should consider those to be extreme exceptions, not unlike making a new move entirely. Because, whether it is collectively acknowledged or not, the move trends listed above DO represent a facet of playing the standard metagame.
For example, it is common practice in teambuilding and standard play, for Dragons to avoid Water pokemon. Not because Water is particularly problematic for Dragons -- but because every Water type in the game can carry a potent Ice move. And if Abomasnow hits the field before or after that Watermon shows up, you likely assume that the Watermon is packing Blizzard instead of Ice Beam -- because everything that gets Ice Beam also can carry Blizzard. If we make a Water pokemon without said Ice moves (which DK tried to do with Krillowatt) -- I think we should regard that as an "extreme departure" from the standard metagame. I think we should consider that long and hard, because bucking those trends is more pervasive than just making CAP X better/worse against Pokemon Y. It shifts CAP away from the standard strategies and tactics of OU pokemon, and therefore reduces accessibility, diminishes the value of what we learn, etc.
I don't want to be too dramatic about it, because for most of the moves I listed above -- people aren't going to care too much. Would you really give a darn if a new Rock pokemon didn't get Mud-Slap? Probably not. But some of those other trends may not be so easy to swallow automatically on every CAP. But, what I'd like to do is put these restrictions in place and see how it works. I think it will reduce some exploitation by movepool submitters by reducing their leverage to create "perfectly optimized" movepools. It may also make CAP pokemon more playable in the competitive pokemon metagame, because the "good move profile" will be statistically more consistent with what competitive players consciously or subconsciously expect.
Looking over Doug's stats, these are the following "chains":
Note: Very Rare moves like Eruption and Water Spout are going to read "No Chain" because Doug's criterion for Move-Move was >20 movepools.
Notes: Double-Edge, Rock Smash, and Mud Slap abound, but the most relevant chain is probably Dragon's. Dragon is a go-ahead on Outrage, Draco Meteor, Earthquake, Double-Edge, and Roar. Granted Double-Edge looks like the ugly man out in the face of Dragon STAB, but regardless four 100+ BP Moves are available based on type alone. Poison is also notable for being essentially a blank slate, only Sludge Bomb is required.
Special Attacks (especially the TMs) are what fill this list, the physical attacks (and Steel/Flying STAB) have their own rules.
I think the n you selected on move-move is too low Doug:
Note: Very Rare moves like Eruption and Water Spout are going to read "No Chain" because Doug's criterion for Move-Move was >20 movepools.
Code:
[B]Type Chains:[/B]
These are chains of moves based on type alone.
[B]Normal Chain:[/B]
Double-Edge
Rain Dance
Sunny Day
Total Good Moves: 3
[B]Bug Chain:[/B]
Double-Edge
Sunny Day
Total Good Moves: 2
[B]Dark Chain:[/B]
Dark Pulse
Mud-Slap
Payback
Sunny Day
Taunt
Total Good Moves: 5
[B]Dragon Chain:[/B]
Aerial Ace -> Double-Edge
Draco Meteor
Dragon Claw -> Roar
Dragon Pulse
Earthquake -> Rock Smash
Mud Slap
Outrage
Rain Dance
Sunny Day
Swift
Total Good Moves: 13
[B]Electric Chain:[/B]
Charge Beam
Discharge
Light Screen
Rain Dance
Shock Wave
Signal Beam
Swift
Thunder
Thunder Wave
Thunderbolt
Total Good Moves: 10
[B]Fighting Chain:[/B]
Brick Break
Bulk Up
Focus Blast
Focus Punch
Mud-Slap
Rock Slide
Rock Smash
Sunny Day
Vacuum Wave
Total Good Moves: 9
[B]Fire Chain:[/B]
Fire Blast
Flamethrower
Heat Wave -> Double-Edge
Mud-Slap
Overheat
Rock Smash
Solarbeam
Sunny Day
Will-O-Wisp
Total Good Moves: 10
[B]Flying Chain:[/B]
Double-Edge
Sunny Day
Swift
Total Good Moves: 3
[B]Ghost Chain:[/B]
Dream Eater
Ominous Wind
Psyche Up
Rain Dance
Shadow Ball
Sucker Punch
Sunny Day
Trick
Will-o-Wisp
Total Good Moves: 9
[B]Grass Chain:[/B]
Energy Ball -> Sunny Day
Giga Drain
Grass Knot
Seed Bomb -> Double-Edge, Mud Slap
Solarbeam
Swords Dance
Synthesis
Total Good Moves: 10
[B]Ground Chain:[/B]
Body Slam
Double-Edge
Earth Power
Earthquake
Mud-Slap
Rock Slide
Rock Smash
Sandstorm
Stone Edge
Total Good Moves: 9
[B]Ice Chain:[/B]
Avalanche
Blizzard
Double-Edge
Hail -> Water Pulse
Ice Beam
Icy Wind
Rain Dance
Total Good Moves: 8
[B]Poison Chain:[/B]
Sludge Bomb
Total Good Moves: 1
[B]Psychic Chain:[/B]
Dream Eater -> Shadow Ball
Grass Knot
Light Screen
Psych Up
Psychic
Rain Dance
Sunny Day
Trick
Zen Headbutt
Total Good Moves:10
[B]Rock Chain:[/B]
Ancientpower
Double-Edge
Earth Power
Mud-Slap
Rock Polish -> Earthquake
Rock Slide
Rock Smash
Sandstorm
Stealth Rock
Stone Edge
Total Good Moves: 11
[B]Steel Chain:[/B]
Flash Cannon
Iron Defense
Sunny Day
Total Good Moves: 3
[B]Water Chain:[/B]
Blizzard
Hail
Ice Beam
Icy Wind
Rain Dance
Surf -> Double-Edge
Water Pulse
Total Good Moves: 8Special Attacks (especially the TMs) are what fill this list, the physical attacks (and Steel/Flying STAB) have their own rules.
Code:
[B]Power Move Chains:[/B]
These are chains of powerful attack moves of each type. This is A-F
[B]Brave Bird:[/B]
No Chain
[B]Close Combat:[/B]
No Chain
[B]Crabhammer:[/B]
No Chain
[B]Crunch:[/B]
Mud Slap
Roar
Rock Smash
[B]Dark Pulse:[/B]
Sunny Day
[B]Discharge:[/B]
Charge Beam
Rain Dance
Shock Wave
Signal Beam
Swift
Thunderbolt
Thunder Wave
[B]Draco Meteor:[/B]
No Chain
[B]Dragon Claw:[/B]
Aerial Ace -> Double-Edge
Dragon Pulse
Earthquake -> Rock Smash
Mud-Slap
Roar
Sunny Day
[B]Dragon Pulse:[/B]
Roar
[B]Drill Peck:[/B]
No Chain
[B]Dynamicpunch:[/B]
Brick Break
Counter
Double-Edge
Focus Blast
Focus Punch
Mud-Slap
Rock Smash
[B]Earth Power:[/B]
Mud Slap
Rock Smash
[B]Earthquake:[/B]
Mud-Slap
Rock Smash
[B]Energy Ball:[/B]
Sunny Day
[B]Eruption:[/B]
No Chain
[B]Explosion:[/B]
No Chain
[B]Extrasensory:[/B]
No Chain
[B]Extremespeed:[/B]
No Chain
[B]Fire Blast:[/B]
Flamethrower
Mud-Slap
Rock Smash
Sunny Day
[B]Fire Punch:[/B]
Mud-Slap
Sunny Day
Thunderpunch
Fire Fang:
No Chain
[B]Flamethrower:[/B]
Fire Blast
Mud-Slap
Rock Smash
Sunny Day
Flare Blitz:
No Chain.I know for damn sure Brave Bird and Flare Blitz should be getting me chains of Mud Slap at least, if not Roost (though maybe not because of Blaziken/Dodrio and a low representation) or Heat Wave. If it's possible to run it again with an n of say, 7 (which should cover these moves, if not Water Spout/Eruption)DougJustDoug said:
Doug, if we enforce these combinations, then perhaps you should put the combination lists in a sticky thread or keep it handy. Because once CAP11 rolls around and the TL just so happens to remind people of these combinations, people are going to want a reference.
Also, I don't think we should be so strict when enforcing these combinations. If we, say, pick a concept that is very specific; a certain chain of moves could break the concept if we are unable to single out certain moves and say 'this move is too strong on this cap, we shall banhammer it' Of course reasonable arguements can be made for or against such tough decisions.
Also, I don't think we should be so strict when enforcing these combinations. If we, say, pick a concept that is very specific; a certain chain of moves could break the concept if we are unable to single out certain moves and say 'this move is too strong on this cap, we shall banhammer it' Of course reasonable arguements can be made for or against such tough decisions.
I have participated in, and observed CAP since the beginning, and while generally quiet because most of the time other people have stated points I would have made much better, I feel like I should comment here.
My personal opinion is that every level of complexity adds an additional hurdle to more people being able or willing to participate, and I feel that the net gain from adding this additional step would be negligible. To me this seems like a solution looking for a problem, and while the CAP move pools do tend to be on the large side of normal, they have not been game-breakingly so.
While the move pool submission processes is time consuming and complex already this will only make it more so; and even though the movepool step is not a major attraction to newcomers any needless complexity that could turn off newcomers seems more harmful than helpful.
My personal opinion is that every level of complexity adds an additional hurdle to more people being able or willing to participate, and I feel that the net gain from adding this additional step would be negligible. To me this seems like a solution looking for a problem, and while the CAP move pools do tend to be on the large side of normal, they have not been game-breakingly so.
While the move pool submission processes is time consuming and complex already this will only make it more so; and even though the movepool step is not a major attraction to newcomers any needless complexity that could turn off newcomers seems more harmful than helpful.
The total time added for this new step is probably somewhere on the order of 48-72 hours for a 6-9 week project. The proposals at current apply to two people: The TL (who needs to be persuaded of a range, though I prefer the exact text to be "persuaded out of the low range") and the movepool submitters. If you want to win movepool submissions you already have to have level of detail roughly equivalent to what is being proposed as a requirement now. The best movepool submitters already do what we're asking, we're just asking them to be more specific about it.
CAP Movepools have always been a huge problem. Initially it was because we were entirely unfocused and it was new to everyone. Now we have a process that works but it's standards are so lax that everything gets through.
I like the idea of forcing combos to an extent. It's another layer of forcing people to limit their movepools by making them pay twice or sometimes three times as much just to get one move in there. I also like the idea of forcing type requirements on movepools. In conclusion, I support the following notions in this thread:
Lastly, I want to make one suggestion:
- Fixed upper limit for good moves
- Type requirements placed on movepools
- Move-Move requirements placed on movepools
- The TL, in the discussion stages, may refute certain Type or Move-Move requirements based on the given CAP in extreme cases
- For these move-move requirements, disallowing one move would subsequently disallow others. For instance, an example:
- Krilowatt cannot learn Flamethrower as decided by the TL
- Overheat is a move that requires Flamethrower by move-move requirements
- Krilowatt therefore cannot learn Overheat because it cannot learn Flamethrower
- Mud Slap and Double-edge should really be cut out and made mandatory for all CAPs whose typing requires them; they pair with basically everything and clutter the reports
- It would be good if we could find a way to weave moves with relatively low distributions but that are critical to many good Pokemon into the reports, such as Close Combat and Brave Bird.
- Definitely reduce the N from 20 for number of good Pokemon to something more like 10. I think this would help fix my second point as well.
Lastly, I want to make one suggestion:
- All changes decided upon by this PR be acted upon all old CAPs retroactively in the form of a "final revision" for them.
- Will balance out a lot of the hyper and overpowered CAPs we currently distress over in the CAP metagame
- Will reduce the obscenity of many of the CAP movepools at large. Things like Fire Blast on Colossoil or Overheat on Krilowatt would go away.
- Will help accessibility of the CAP metagame at large
- Will keep new CAPs made after this PR from being completely inferior to the old CAPs in the CAP metagame
I reran the Move-Move combos with a few changes. I removed the following moves from the Move-Move list:
I also reduced the occurrence threshold to 5 for all moves with 80 BP or higher. This added several "very good moves" to this list, and really fills out the list more consistent with the original intent. Here's the new list:
You'll notice that big moves like Close Combat, Flare Blitz, and Brave Bird are in the list now -- along with a whole host of required moves. So, now if movepool creators want to include some of the high-BP moves in the game -- they will have to include several other moves, just like all the other ingame pokes that have those moves in their movepools.
Double-edge
Mud-Slap
Rock Smash
Sunny Day
Rain Dance
These moves were very prevalent in the lists, and were mostly coincidental due to massive distribution in the real game. And they are well-represented in the Type-Move lists already. So, these moves are going to be on almost every CAP movepool anyway. We should probably add Double-edge, Mud-Slap, and Rock Smash to the "always required list" anyway -- and leave it up to the TL to remove them if there is a serious competitive reason to exclude them.Mud-Slap
Rock Smash
Sunny Day
Rain Dance
I also reduced the occurrence threshold to 5 for all moves with 80 BP or higher. This added several "very good moves" to this list, and really fills out the list more consistent with the original intent. Here's the new list:
Code:
+--------------+----------+--------------+------------+--------------+
| Move 1 | M1 Count | Move 2 | Pair Count | Pair Percent |
+--------------+----------+--------------+------------+--------------+
| Aura Sphere | 8 | Swift | 8 | 100% |
| Blizzard | 73 | Ice Beam | 72 | 99% |
| Blizzard | 73 | Icy Wind | 66 | 90% |
| Brave Bird | 6 | Aerial Ace | 6 | 100% |
| Brave Bird | 6 | Swift | 6 | 100% |
| Bug Buzz | 8 | Aerial Ace | 8 | 100% |
| Close Combat | 14 | Brick Break | 13 | 93% |
| Close Combat | 14 | Bulk Up | 13 | 93% |
| Close Combat | 14 | Earthquake | 13 | 93% |
| Close Combat | 14 | Rock Slide | 13 | 93% |
| Close Combat | 14 | Stone Edge | 13 | 93% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Brick Break | 9 | 100% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Earthquake | 9 | 100% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Focus Blast | 9 | 100% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Focus Punch | 9 | 100% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Rock Slide | 9 | 100% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Thunderpunch | 9 | 100% |
| Crunch | 31 | Roar | 28 | 90% |
| Discharge | 20 | Charge Beam | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Shock Wave | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Signal Beam | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Swift | 19 | 95% |
| Discharge | 20 | Thunder | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Thunder Wave | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Thunderbolt | 20 | 100% |
| Draco Meteor | 13 | Aerial Ace | 12 | 92% |
| Draco Meteor | 13 | Dragon Claw | 12 | 92% |
| Draco Meteor | 13 | Dragon Pulse | 13 | 100% |
| Draco Meteor | 13 | Earthquake | 12 | 92% |
| Draco Meteor | 13 | Outrage | 13 | 100% |
| Draco Meteor | 13 | Swift | 13 | 100% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Aerial Ace | 20 | 100% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Dragon Pulse | 20 | 100% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Earthquake | 20 | 100% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Roar | 19 | 95% |
| Dragon Pulse | 33 | Roar | 30 | 91% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Body Slam | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Dragon Pulse | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Earthquake | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Fire Blast | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Flamethrower | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Iron Tail | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Outrage | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Roar | 8 | 100% |
| Dream Eater | 64 | Psych Up | 60 | 94% |
| Dream Eater | 64 | Shadow Ball | 58 | 91% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Body Slam | 58 | 94% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Brick Break | 60 | 97% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Counter | 56 | 90% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Focus Blast | 57 | 92% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Focus Punch | 59 | 95% |
| Extrasensory | 14 | Swift | 13 | 93% |
| Extremespeed | 8 | Swift | 8 | 100% |
| Fire Blast | 50 | Flamethrower | 50 | 100% |
| Flamethrower | 52 | Fire Blast | 50 | 96% |
| Flare Blitz | 8 | Fire Blast | 8 | 100% |
| Flare Blitz | 8 | Flamethrower | 8 | 100% |
| Flare Blitz | 8 | Heat Wave | 8 | 100% |
| Flare Blitz | 8 | Overheat | 8 | 100% |
| Flare Blitz | 8 | Solarbeam | 8 | 100% |
| Flare Blitz | 8 | Will-o-wisp | 8 | 100% |
| Fly | 24 | Aerial Ace | 23 | 96% |
| Fly | 24 | Steel Wing | 22 | 92% |
| Fly | 24 | Swift | 24 | 100% |
| Focus Blast | 72 | Brick Break | 69 | 96% |
| Focus Blast | 72 | Focus Punch | 68 | 94% |
| Focus Punch | 73 | Brick Break | 70 | 96% |
| Focus Punch | 73 | Focus Blast | 68 | 93% |
| Hammer Arm | 13 | Body Slam | 12 | 92% |
| Hammer Arm | 13 | Brick Break | 13 | 100% |
| Hammer Arm | 13 | Dynamicpunch | 12 | 92% |
| Hammer Arm | 13 | Earthquake | 13 | 100% |
| Hammer Arm | 13 | Focus Blast | 12 | 92% |
| Hammer Arm | 13 | Focus Punch | 12 | 92% |
| Hammer Arm | 13 | Ice Punch | 12 | 92% |
| Hammer Arm | 13 | Rock Slide | 13 | 100% |
| Hammer Arm | 13 | Thunderpunch | 12 | 92% |
| Hi Jump Kick | 6 | Brick Break | 6 | 100% |
| Hi Jump Kick | 6 | Bulk Up | 6 | 100% |
| Hi Jump Kick | 6 | Bullet Punch | 6 | 100% |
| Hi Jump Kick | 6 | Counter | 6 | 100% |
| Hi Jump Kick | 6 | Foresight | 6 | 100% |
| Hi Jump Kick | 6 | Rock Slide | 6 | 100% |
| Hi Jump Kick | 6 | Swift | 6 | 100% |
| Hi Jump Kick | 6 | Vacuum Wave | 6 | 100% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Blizzard | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Hail | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Ice Beam | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Icy Wind | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Surf | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Water Pulse | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Waterfall | 24 | 92% |
| Ice Beam | 79 | Blizzard | 72 | 91% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Earthquake | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Fire Blast | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Flamethrower | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Heat Wave | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Overheat | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Rock Slide | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Solarbeam | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Will-o-wisp | 6 | 100% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Energy Ball | 11 | 92% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Giga Drain | 11 | 92% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Grass Knot | 11 | 92% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Leech Seed | 11 | 92% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Seed Bomb | 11 | 92% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Solarbeam | 11 | 92% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Swords Dance | 11 | 92% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Synthesis | 11 | 92% |
| Muddy Water | 6 | Blizzard | 6 | 100% |
| Muddy Water | 6 | Body Slam | 6 | 100% |
| Muddy Water | 6 | Dig | 6 | 100% |
| Muddy Water | 6 | Hail | 6 | 100% |
| Muddy Water | 6 | Ice Beam | 6 | 100% |
| Muddy Water | 6 | Icy Wind | 6 | 100% |
| Muddy Water | 6 | Surf | 6 | 100% |
| Muddy Water | 6 | Water Pulse | 6 | 100% |
| Muddy Water | 6 | Waterfall | 6 | 100% |
| Outrage | 37 | Earthquake | 34 | 92% |
| Overheat | 21 | Flamethrower | 19 | 90% |
| Sky Uppercut | 6 | Focus Blast | 6 | 100% |
| Sky Uppercut | 6 | Focus Punch | 6 | 100% |
| Sky Uppercut | 6 | Thunderpunch | 6 | 100% |
| Stone Edge | 59 | Earthquake | 55 | 93% |
| Stone Edge | 59 | Rock Slide | 57 | 97% |
| Surf | 57 | Ice Beam | 53 | 93% |
| Thrash | 17 | Earthquake | 16 | 94% |
| Thunder | 77 | Shock Wave | 73 | 95% |
| Thunder | 77 | Thunderbolt | 77 | 100% |
| Thunderbolt | 80 | Shock Wave | 75 | 94% |
| Thunderbolt | 80 | Thunder | 77 | 96% |
| Waterfall | 36 | Blizzard | 34 | 94% |
| Waterfall | 36 | Ice Beam | 36 | 100% |
| Waterfall | 36 | Icy Wind | 36 | 100% |
| Waterfall | 36 | Surf | 36 | 100% |
| Waterfall | 36 | Water Pulse | 36 | 100% |
| X-Scissor | 20 | Swords Dance | 19 | 95% |
+--------------+----------+--------------+------------+--------------+
137 rowsOK, I think we are getting closer to conclusion here. But we need to figure out how to set limits for the movepool.
As I mentioned before, I'm skeptical of ranges being selected by the community or the TL. But, I'm also not too keen on imposing a fixed limit for all CAP projects, because that doesn't allow the community to tailor the pokemon to concept, if necessary. But, and interesting suggestion was made that could allow us to have both...
On IRC we discussed making the Movepool and Base Stats inversely proportionate to each other. Basically, if we give the pokemon great base stats, then the movepool will have to be smaller. If we give it lesser base stats, then we can increase the size of the movepool.
This is not being mentioned as an all-purpose "rule of ingame pokemon" -- we all know there are many pokemon with great stats and great movepools. However, all those pokemon with both stats and moves -- they fall into two categories:
Well, on CAP -- that's exactly what we do. We never give our pokemon bad typing. We never give our pokemon a bullshit ability. We never waste stats or waste moves. CAP pokemon are literally "perfect" in every way.
I don't see us ever forcing the community to give a CAP crappy typing. Nor do I ever see us intentionally giving a pokemon a poor ability. But, we can impose a directly inverse relationship between stats and movepool, ensuring that either of them can be incredible -- but not both of them at the same time. Or they both can be somewhat balanced in the middle.
My suggestion is that we alter the process to pick the Stat AND Movepool limits near the beginning of the project. We take the current "Stat Bias Discussion" step, and make it "Stat and Movepool Limits Discussion". In that thread we discuss the following 7 combinations of limits:
These would be the ONLY combinations that are allowed. So, for example, if you want the pokemon to have Fantastic stats, then it is forced to have a merely Above Average movepool. That means the BSR could be no higher than 450, and the Movepool could have no more than 55 moves total AND no more than 38 good moves (as defined in the OP of this thread). The movepools would also be forced to conform to the movepool guide and the pairing requirements I posted above.
People would argue back and forth and try to persuade the Topic Leader what is best for the concept. At the end of the discussion, the Topic Leader would pick one of those seven Stat-Movepool Limits, and all stat spread and movepool submitters would have to abide by the limits. The rest of the stat spread and movepool process would proceed normally, just like we do currently.
I think this is good for a variety of reasons:
As I mentioned before, I'm skeptical of ranges being selected by the community or the TL. But, I'm also not too keen on imposing a fixed limit for all CAP projects, because that doesn't allow the community to tailor the pokemon to concept, if necessary. But, and interesting suggestion was made that could allow us to have both...
On IRC we discussed making the Movepool and Base Stats inversely proportionate to each other. Basically, if we give the pokemon great base stats, then the movepool will have to be smaller. If we give it lesser base stats, then we can increase the size of the movepool.
This is not being mentioned as an all-purpose "rule of ingame pokemon" -- we all know there are many pokemon with great stats and great movepools. However, all those pokemon with both stats and moves -- they fall into two categories:
1) They have some fundamental weakness or limiting factor. Whether it be typing, ability, lack of the "right moves" for their stats, or whatever.
OR
2) They are uber.
In the real game, a pokemon cannot have great stats and great moves and no real weaknesses elsewhere -- without being uber. OR
2) They are uber.
Well, on CAP -- that's exactly what we do. We never give our pokemon bad typing. We never give our pokemon a bullshit ability. We never waste stats or waste moves. CAP pokemon are literally "perfect" in every way.
I don't see us ever forcing the community to give a CAP crappy typing. Nor do I ever see us intentionally giving a pokemon a poor ability. But, we can impose a directly inverse relationship between stats and movepool, ensuring that either of them can be incredible -- but not both of them at the same time. Or they both can be somewhat balanced in the middle.
My suggestion is that we alter the process to pick the Stat AND Movepool limits near the beginning of the project. We take the current "Stat Bias Discussion" step, and make it "Stat and Movepool Limits Discussion". In that thread we discuss the following 7 combinations of limits:
Code:
+---------------------------------------------+
| Base Stats Rating | Movepool (Total/Good) |
+---------------------+-----------------------+
| Below Average (200) | Amazing (105/75) |
| Above Average (250) | Fantastic (95/68) |
| Good (300) | Excellent (85/60) |
| Very Good (350) | Very Good (75/53) |
| Excellent (400) | Good (65/45) |
| Fantastic (450) | Above Average (55/38) |
| Amazing (500) | Below Average (45/30) |
+---------------------+-----------------------+People would argue back and forth and try to persuade the Topic Leader what is best for the concept. At the end of the discussion, the Topic Leader would pick one of those seven Stat-Movepool Limits, and all stat spread and movepool submitters would have to abide by the limits. The rest of the stat spread and movepool process would proceed normally, just like we do currently.
I think this is good for a variety of reasons:
- It sets the direction of the pokemon early on, without deciding the specifics. I think it would really help us decide things like ability, if we know the general size of the movepool at the beginning.
- It curbs the tendency to make CAP pokemon "too perfect"
- It preserves the ability for the project to adjust stats and movepool to the concept at hand
I like it mostly, Doug, as we discussed on IRC. However, for the movepools, I feel like the Amazing rating is too obscene and the Below Average just too small. I am suggesting the following table, which varies the good moves by +/-5 and the total moves by +/-8 per rating. With Type-Move and Move-Move requirements placed on each CAP, 35 good moves fills up incredibly quickly, giving you virtually no serious coverage options.
In addition to this "balancing" that must be done at the new BSR/Movepool Limit stage, I want to reiterate things I want to see from my old post.
Code:
+---------------------------------------------+
| Base Stats Rating | Movepool (Total/Good) |
+---------------------+-----------------------+
| Below Average (200) | Amazing (100/65) |
| Above Average (250) | Fantastic (93/60) |
| Good (300) | Excellent (85/55) |
| Very Good (350) | Very Good (78/50) |
| Excellent (400) | Good (70/45) |
| Fantastic (450) | Above Average (63/40) |
| Amazing (500) | Below Average (55/35) |
+---------------------+-----------------------+- Type-Move requirements for movepools put in place
- Move-Move requirements for movepools put in place
- Required-Move list including Mud-Slap and Double-Edge as retcon'd Tutor Moves just to fill up slots. (So they don't detract from the level-up or Egg movepools)
- All changes decided upon by this PR be acted upon all old CAPs retroactively in the form of a "final movepool revision" for them.
I entirely oppose the "curve" being places on movepools because it's the most laughably exploitable thing I have ever seen. All it will do is lead to extremely minimalist movepools that cut out all the flavor and become nothing more than a scientific process whereby unscrupulous persons such as myself cut out every instance of Shock Wave, Aerial Ace, and Sludge Bomb to pick up slots to use.
Lets take Doug's most restrictive version, we have 16 required Good Moves (with DE and Weathers) along with general Pokemon. Now lets go with the two most "expensive" types, Dragon (13) and Rock (11). [For now, ignore this type combination is fairly suspect defensively.]
But there's crossover.
So we have 16 +
Aerial Ace
Draco Meteor
Dragon Claw -> Roar
Dragon Pulse
Earthquake
Mud-Slap
Outrage
Swift
Ancientpower
Earth Power
Rock Polish
Rock Slide
Rock Smash
Sandstorm
Stealth Rock
Stone Edge
(17)
17 + 16 = 33.
So we can't select Doug's "Amazing" variant (we can select Dusk's).
Here's the thing. This already has Dragon, Rock, and Ground moves, with a 2 move leeway for Dusk. If we go to the next category (Fantastic), we have room for 5 moves (8 with Dusk). This leaves us room for Fire Blast and Close Combat.
Close Combat
Brick Break
Bulk Up
(Stone Edge and EQ already required)
(3)
Fire Blast
Flamethrower
(2)
Which puts us square at 38. There are other powerful moves we could add that aren't nearly as restrictive as Fire Blast. Close Combat for instance only adds Brick Break and Bulk Up, since all of Close Combat's other moves are already type-included. Assuming no other bans we could have a Dragon/Rock Pokemon with "Fantastic" stats, and "Above Average" Movepool comprised of Rock Polish, Outrage, Earthquake, Stone Edge, and either Close Combat/Bulk Up or Flare Blitz + Fire Blast/FT. If any other moves on any of these lists were barred, you could even add Flare Blitz (since it chains with the other Fire Moves).
X-Act's calculator isn't working for me now, but suffice it to say we could essentially rebuild Salamence or Garchomp under these metrics without all the flavor and fluff.
My ultimate point being, even with all these restrictions you basically turn CAP into a formulaic project. I entirely oppose this new metric, I like the way stats were selected in CAP 10, since the only real leeway you had with it is if you wanted to hang around with mind-bending HP and dismal speed to pump up every other aspect. Such extremism would probably leave you without popular support. Going back to "BSR Island" to fix movepools would be a crap chute. If we tried to implement this and kept our current system on selecting stat categories, we'd be selling people a bill of goods, since we could never reach the promised BSR category but our movepools would be forced into this formulaic model. I think CAP loses everything it's supposed to be if we basiclaly create the project when we decide Types and use this Stats/Movepool metric.
Movepools definitely need to be changed, but this metric turns movepool into just another playground for efficiency nerds like me and makes CAP Pokemon more like machines than Pokemon. You would basically choose between which of the allowed power moves and stat-ups you preferred.\
Addendum:
Talked to Dusk on IRC a bit. I'm still opposed because it potentially brings back "BSR Island," but the best way forward would just be to remove "Amazing" and "Fantastic" ranges from both ends of the spectrum and proceed with Good, Very Good, and Excellent. This gives enough room for flavor and doesn't just leave it to a contest of the efficiency wonks.
Lets take Doug's most restrictive version, we have 16 required Good Moves (with DE and Weathers) along with general Pokemon. Now lets go with the two most "expensive" types, Dragon (13) and Rock (11). [For now, ignore this type combination is fairly suspect defensively.]
But there's crossover.
So we have 16 +
Aerial Ace
Draco Meteor
Dragon Claw -> Roar
Dragon Pulse
Earthquake
Mud-Slap
Outrage
Swift
Ancientpower
Earth Power
Rock Polish
Rock Slide
Rock Smash
Sandstorm
Stealth Rock
Stone Edge
(17)
17 + 16 = 33.
So we can't select Doug's "Amazing" variant (we can select Dusk's).
Here's the thing. This already has Dragon, Rock, and Ground moves, with a 2 move leeway for Dusk. If we go to the next category (Fantastic), we have room for 5 moves (8 with Dusk). This leaves us room for Fire Blast and Close Combat.
Close Combat
Brick Break
Bulk Up
(Stone Edge and EQ already required)
(3)
Fire Blast
Flamethrower
(2)
Which puts us square at 38. There are other powerful moves we could add that aren't nearly as restrictive as Fire Blast. Close Combat for instance only adds Brick Break and Bulk Up, since all of Close Combat's other moves are already type-included. Assuming no other bans we could have a Dragon/Rock Pokemon with "Fantastic" stats, and "Above Average" Movepool comprised of Rock Polish, Outrage, Earthquake, Stone Edge, and either Close Combat/Bulk Up or Flare Blitz + Fire Blast/FT. If any other moves on any of these lists were barred, you could even add Flare Blitz (since it chains with the other Fire Moves).
X-Act's calculator isn't working for me now, but suffice it to say we could essentially rebuild Salamence or Garchomp under these metrics without all the flavor and fluff.
My ultimate point being, even with all these restrictions you basically turn CAP into a formulaic project. I entirely oppose this new metric, I like the way stats were selected in CAP 10, since the only real leeway you had with it is if you wanted to hang around with mind-bending HP and dismal speed to pump up every other aspect. Such extremism would probably leave you without popular support. Going back to "BSR Island" to fix movepools would be a crap chute. If we tried to implement this and kept our current system on selecting stat categories, we'd be selling people a bill of goods, since we could never reach the promised BSR category but our movepools would be forced into this formulaic model. I think CAP loses everything it's supposed to be if we basiclaly create the project when we decide Types and use this Stats/Movepool metric.
Movepools definitely need to be changed, but this metric turns movepool into just another playground for efficiency nerds like me and makes CAP Pokemon more like machines than Pokemon. You would basically choose between which of the allowed power moves and stat-ups you preferred.\
Addendum:
Talked to Dusk on IRC a bit. I'm still opposed because it potentially brings back "BSR Island," but the best way forward would just be to remove "Amazing" and "Fantastic" ranges from both ends of the spectrum and proceed with Good, Very Good, and Excellent. This gives enough room for flavor and doesn't just leave it to a contest of the efficiency wonks.
I agree with you that the BSR limits are too obscene. I wanted to make them move in 25 BSR increments instead of 50, but it made sense at the time to follow the actual BSR limits as set by X-Act's calculator. Let me fix that up a bit and see what we can get.
Truth be told, as you mentioned on #CAP, we could fix this just by getting rid of Amazing and Fantastic BSR as categories altogether. Check this.
In this regard, we would see a few Excellent BSR CAPs because they are intended to be very focused, we'd see a few Very Good BSR CAPs because they just demand a certain level if move-diversity, and we'd see on a few Good BSR CAPs for the need of even more diversity.
I doubt we'd ever legitimately see 200 / 250 BSR limits put on CAPs, because unless we are trying something akin to Smeargle, but not that extreme, it just wouldn't happen.
What do you think of that?
Truth be told, as you mentioned on #CAP, we could fix this just by getting rid of Amazing and Fantastic BSR as categories altogether. Check this.
Code:
+---------------------------------------------+
| Base Stats Rating | Movepool (Total/Good) |
+---------------------+-----------------------+
| Below Average (200) | Amazing (100/65) |
| Above Average (250) | Fantastic (93/60) |
| Good (300) | Excellent (85/55) |
| Very Good (350) | Very Good (78/50) |
| Excellent (400) | Good (70/45) |
+---------------------+-----------------------+I doubt we'd ever legitimately see 200 / 250 BSR limits put on CAPs, because unless we are trying something akin to Smeargle, but not that extreme, it just wouldn't happen.
What do you think of that?
I've stated before that i'd like to see something similar to what Rising_Dusk is trying to put on the table. (Hopefully he got the idea from me).
The biggest problem I see with this, is that it's too ridged. I feel that a table such as your's should simply be a guideline. Remember that Typing(s) and Ability(s) also affect the BST and Movepool discussion. So, while I completely support the idea of High BST-Low Movepool. I cannot support a set-in-stone graph for it simply because of the other variables that go into the CAP process.
The biggest problem I see with this, is that it's too ridged. I feel that a table such as your's should simply be a guideline. Remember that Typing(s) and Ability(s) also affect the BST and Movepool discussion. So, while I completely support the idea of High BST-Low Movepool. I cannot support a set-in-stone graph for it simply because of the other variables that go into the CAP process.
Yesterday we were talking on IRC about the number of not-spectacular moves that are listed as "good moves" in my movepool stats. I decided to run a different sweep of stats, in an attempt to identify the "very good moves" in the competitive game.
In the OP stats, I used all commonly used moves from the movepools of all pokemon played on any competitive ladder (OU, Uber and UU). So, for this stat run, I identified the common moves used only by "OU Pokemon" (defined as any pokemon ever used more than 25,000 times in a month on the OU ladder). I wanted to include moves from ubers too, and basically just exclude the moves used in UU -- but that was not very straightforward. I'm sick of running stats, and didn't want to spend too much additional time doing this -- and I don't think it would change the top moves that much anyway. There are very few (if any) great moves in ubers that have distribution amongst a significant number or pokemon that ARE not moves used in OU as well.
Here is the list of "Very Good Moves":
That is 108 less moves than the "good moves" list. By just eyeballing the list, it appears to be an accurate representation of "very good moves".
So, then I ran movepool counts of the "very good moves" in the movepools of ALL "good pokemon". I also included the total movepool size for each pokemon, and I omitted breaking the very good moves down into categories (Levelup, TM, etc). Here is the list of good pokemon sorted by the number of "Very Good Moves" in their movepool:
Here are the very good move counts for CAP pokes:
No surprise there -- CAP pokemon outclass the normal competitive game by a considerable margin, just like every other movepool statistic. Here's the averages for very good moves:
I then reran the Move-Move combination stats for all good pokemon, but only accounted for very good moves:
You'll notice all the different counts for "Very Good Moves" are significantly less than my earlier lists that were using "Good Moves". I think these numbers may be appropriate for setting limits here on the CAP project. I don't know if we should replace the "Good Move" limits with "Very Good Move" limits, or use both of them. Using both may be too complicated. I definitely think the very good moves should be used for Move-Move combinations, since any move combination that involves anything other than the best moves, is really just a nagging annoyance for movepool creators.
I'm not exactly sure of what I'm proposing with very good moves. I just wanted to get the stats out there, and get some feedback.
In the OP stats, I used all commonly used moves from the movepools of all pokemon played on any competitive ladder (OU, Uber and UU). So, for this stat run, I identified the common moves used only by "OU Pokemon" (defined as any pokemon ever used more than 25,000 times in a month on the OU ladder). I wanted to include moves from ubers too, and basically just exclude the moves used in UU -- but that was not very straightforward. I'm sick of running stats, and didn't want to spend too much additional time doing this -- and I don't think it would change the top moves that much anyway. There are very few (if any) great moves in ubers that have distribution amongst a significant number or pokemon that ARE not moves used in OU as well.
Here is the list of "Very Good Moves":
Code:
+--------------+
| move |
+--------------+
| Acid Armor |
| Aerial Ace |
| Agility |
| Air Slash |
| Aqua Jet |
| Aqua Ring |
| Aqua Tail |
| Aromatherapy |
| Aura Sphere |
| Avalanche |
| Baton Pass |
| Belly Drum |
| Blizzard |
| Body Slam |
| Bounce |
| Brave Bird |
| Brick Break |
| Bug Bite |
| Bulk Up |
| Bullet Punch |
| Calm Mind |
| Charge Beam |
| Close Combat |
| Confuse Ray |
| Counter |
| Cross Chop |
| Cross Poison |
| Crunch |
| Curse |
| Dark Pulse |
| Destiny Bond |
| Discharge |
| Draco Meteor |
| Dragon Claw |
| Dragon Dance |
| Dragon Pulse |
| Dragon Rush |
| Drill Peck |
| Dynamicpunch |
| Earth Power |
| Earthquake |
| Encore |
| Endeavor |
| Endure |
| Energy Ball |
| Explosion |
| Extremespeed |
| Facade |
| Fake Out |
| Fire Blast |
| Fire Fang |
| Fire Punch |
| Flamethrower |
| Flare Blitz |
| Flash Cannon |
| Focus Blast |
| Focus Punch |
| Giga Drain |
| Grass Knot |
| Gravity |
| Gyro Ball |
| Haze |
| Heal Bell |
| Heat Wave |
| Hidden Power |
| HP-Electric |
| HP-Fighting |
| HP-Fire |
| HP-Grass |
| HP-Ground |
| HP-Ice |
| HP-Water |
| Hydro Pump |
| Hyper Beam |
| Hypnosis |
| Ice Beam |
| Ice Fang |
| Ice Punch |
| Ice Shard |
| Ingrain |
| Iron Head |
| Knock Off |
| Lava Plume |
| Leaf Storm |
| Leech Seed |
| Light Screen |
| Low Kick |
| Lunar Dance |
| Mach Punch |
| Magic Coat |
| Magnet Rise |
| Mean Look |
| Meditate |
| Megahorn |
| Meteor Mash |
| Mirror Coat |
| Moonlight |
| Nasty Plot |
| Night Slash |
| Outrage |
| Overheat |
| Pain Split |
| Payback |
| Perish Song |
| Poison Jab |
| Protect |
| Psychic |
| Psycho Boost |
| Psycho Shift |
| Pursuit |
| Quick Attack |
| Rain Dance |
| Rapid Spin |
| Recover |
| Reflect |
| Refresh |
| Rest |
| Return |
| Reversal |
| Roar |
| Rock Blast |
| Rock Polish |
| Rock Slide |
| Roost |
| Seed Bomb |
| Seed Flare |
| Seismic Toss |
| Selfdestruct |
| Shadow Ball |
| Shadow Punch |
| Shadow Sneak |
| Signal Beam |
| Slack Off |
| Sleep Powder |
| Sleep Talk |
| Sludge Bomb |
| Softboiled |
| Spider Web |
| Spikes |
| Spore |
| Stealth Rock |
| Stockpile |
| Stone Edge |
| Stun Spore |
| Substitute |
| Sucker Punch |
| Super Fang |
| Superpower |
| Surf |
| Swords Dance |
| Taunt |
| Thunder |
| Thunder Fang |
| Thunder Wave |
| Thunderbolt |
| Thunderpunch |
| Toxic |
| Toxic Spikes |
| Transform |
| Tri Attack |
| Trick |
| Trick Room |
| U-turn |
| Vacuum Wave |
| Waterfall |
| Weather Ball |
| Whirlwind |
| Will-o-wisp |
| Wish |
| X-Scissor |
| Yawn |
| Zen Headbutt |
+--------------+
172 rowsSo, then I ran movepool counts of the "very good moves" in the movepools of ALL "good pokemon". I also included the total movepool size for each pokemon, and I omitted breaking the very good moves down into categories (Levelup, TM, etc). Here is the list of good pokemon sorted by the number of "Very Good Moves" in their movepool:
Code:
+------+------------+----------+----------+
| | | | Very |
| | | Total | Good |
| | Pokemon | Moves | Moves |
+------+------------+----------+----------+
| 1 | Rhyperior | 100 | 55 |
| 2 | Tyranitar | 95 | 53 |
| 3 | Mewtwo | 102 | 53 |
| 4 | Aggron | 98 | 52 |
| 5 | Gallade | 104 | 51 |
| 6 | Clefable | 106 | 49 |
| 7 | Gengar | 84 | 47 |
| 8 | Dragonite | 89 | 47 |
| 9 | Nidoqueen | 96 | 47 |
| 10 | Nidoking | 98 | 46 |
| 11 | Blissey | 100 | 46 |
| 12 | Absol | 94 | 46 |
| 13 | Snorlax | 90 | 46 |
| 14 | Dusknoir | 90 | 45 |
| 15 | Lucario | 84 | 44 |
| 16 | Kangaskhan | 96 | 44 |
| 17 | Rayquaza | 75 | 44 |
| 18 | Mr. Mime | 93 | 44 |
| 19 | Chansey | 98 | 44 |
| 20 | Blaziken | 87 | 43 |
| 21 | Infernape | 82 | 43 |
| 22 | Slowking | 92 | 42 |
| 23 | Blastoise | 84 | 42 |
| 24 | Slaking | 82 | 42 |
| 25 | Primeape | 88 | 42 |
| 26 | Lugia | 85 | 42 |
| 27 | Togekiss | 95 | 42 |
| 28 | Rampardos | 80 | 42 |
| 29 | Lickilicky | 92 | 42 |
| 30 | Slowbro | 90 | 41 |
| 31 | Metagross | 70 | 41 |
| 32 | Charizard | 90 | 41 |
| 33 | Medicham | 81 | 41 |
| 34 | Darkrai | 78 | 41 |
| 35 | Latias | 80 | 41 |
| 36 | Muk | 76 | 40 |
| 37 | Latios | 79 | 40 |
| 38 | Toxicroak | 77 | 39 |
| 39 | Sceptile | 87 | 39 |
| 40 | Feraligatr | 84 | 39 |
| 41 | Hariyama | 76 | 39 |
| 42 | Jirachi | 76 | 39 |
| 43 | Ursaring | 87 | 39 |
| 44 | Weavile | 88 | 39 |
| 45 | Gliscor | 81 | 39 |
| 46 | Electivire | 73 | 38 |
| 47 | Hypno | 78 | 38 |
| 48 | Swampert | 83 | 38 |
| 49 | Azelf | 68 | 38 |
| 50 | Machamp | 74 | 38 |
| 51 | Gardevoir | 80 | 38 |
| 52 | Drapion | 73 | 38 |
| 53 | Ambipom | 86 | 37 |
| 54 | Celebi | 74 | 37 |
| 55 | Palkia | 69 | 37 |
| 56 | Regice | 68 | 37 |
| 57 | Alakazam | 79 | 37 |
| 58 | Groudon | 75 | 37 |
| 59 | Raichu | 80 | 37 |
| 60 | Dialga | 68 | 37 |
| 61 | Miltank | 76 | 37 |
| 62 | Aerodactyl | 73 | 37 |
| 63 | Ho-oh | 73 | 36 |
| 64 | Gyarados | 66 | 36 |
| 65 | Marowak | 81 | 36 |
| 66 | Salamence | 76 | 36 |
| 67 | Poliwrath | 78 | 36 |
| 68 | Hitmonlee | 70 | 35 |
| 69 | Pikachu | 76 | 35 |
| 70 | Steelix | 74 | 35 |
| 71 | Regirock | 69 | 35 |
| 72 | Lapras | 69 | 35 |
| 73 | Registeel | 69 | 35 |
| 74 | Crobat | 68 | 35 |
| 75 | Magmortar | 71 | 34 |
| 76 | Ludicolo | 79 | 34 |
| 77 | Qwilfish | 66 | 34 |
| 78 | Cacturne | 76 | 34 |
| 79 | Breloom | 78 | 34 |
| 80 | Garchomp | 70 | 34 |
| 81 | Lopunny | 73 | 34 |
| 82 | Quagsire | 77 | 34 |
| 83 | Mesprit | 64 | 34 |
| 84 | Mismagius | 74 | 34 |
| 85 | Uxie | 64 | 34 |
| 86 | Kabutops | 78 | 34 |
| 87 | Claydol | 66 | 34 |
| 88 | Azumarill | 77 | 34 |
| 89 | Bronzong | 63 | 33 |
| 90 | Honchkrow | 74 | 33 |
| 91 | Empoleon | 78 | 33 |
| 92 | Froslass | 70 | 33 |
| 93 | Starmie | 64 | 33 |
| 94 | Typhlosion | 75 | 33 |
| 95 | Exeggutor | 69 | 33 |
| 96 | Scizor | 69 | 32 |
| 97 | Banette | 71 | 32 |
| 98 | Torterra | 70 | 32 |
| 99 | Porygon-Z | 64 | 32 |
| 100 | Tangrowth | 75 | 32 |
| 101 | Hitmonchan | 66 | 32 |
| 102 | Altaria | 74 | 32 |
| 103 | Drifblim | 69 | 31 |
| 104 | Forretress | 62 | 31 |
| 105 | Sharpedo | 70 | 31 |
| 106 | Ampharos | 66 | 31 |
| 107 | Floatzel | 65 | 31 |
| 108 | Abomasnow | 66 | 31 |
| 109 | Heatran | 57 | 31 |
| 110 | Hitmontop | 64 | 31 |
| 111 | Porygon2 | 60 | 30 |
| 112 | Bibarel | 70 | 30 |
| 113 | Manectric | 57 | 30 |
| 114 | Flygon | 72 | 30 |
| 115 | Heracross | 64 | 30 |
| 116 | Skarmory | 70 | 30 |
| 117 | Houndoom | 69 | 30 |
| 118 | Sandslash | 68 | 30 |
| 119 | Donphan | 68 | 30 |
| 120 | Camerupt | 65 | 29 |
| 121 | Milotic | 60 | 29 |
| 122 | Tauros | 61 | 29 |
| 123 | Torkoal | 58 | 29 |
| 124 | Walrein | 65 | 29 |
| 125 | Kyogre | 57 | 29 |
| 126 | Lanturn | 62 | 29 |
| 127 | Vaporeon | 69 | 29 |
| 128 | Omastar | 67 | 29 |
| 129 | Jolteon | 66 | 29 |
| 130 | Roserade | 68 | 29 |
| 131 | Weezing | 60 | 28 |
| 132 | Cresselia | 56 | 28 |
| 133 | Manaphy | 59 | 28 |
| 134 | Cradily | 61 | 28 |
| 135 | Scyther | 60 | 28 |
| 136 | Mamoswine | 68 | 28 |
| 137 | Raikou | 55 | 28 |
| 138 | Tentacruel | 57 | 27 |
| 139 | Spiritomb | 57 | 27 |
| 140 | Hippowdon | 53 | 27 |
| 141 | Gorebyss | 57 | 27 |
| 142 | Linoone | 73 | 27 |
| 143 | Relicanth | 61 | 27 |
| 144 | Arcanine | 60 | 27 |
| 145 | Gastrodon | 58 | 27 |
| 146 | Glaceon | 63 | 27 |
| 147 | Venusaur | 68 | 27 |
| 148 | Espeon | 68 | 27 |
| 149 | Pinsir | 64 | 27 |
| 150 | Leafeon | 68 | 27 |
| 151 | Umbreon | 69 | 27 |
| 152 | Ninetales | 59 | 27 |
| 153 | Magnezone | 57 | 27 |
| 154 | Persian | 81 | 27 |
| 155 | Venomoth | 61 | 26 |
| 156 | Kingdra | 57 | 26 |
| 157 | Suicune | 60 | 26 |
| 158 | Zapdos | 57 | 26 |
| 159 | Electrode | 45 | 25 |
| 160 | Magneton | 54 | 25 |
| 161 | Swellow | 57 | 25 |
| 162 | Meganium | 63 | 25 |
| 163 | Cloyster | 58 | 25 |
| 164 | Shaymin | 53 | 25 |
| 165 | Yanmega | 64 | 25 |
| 166 | Snover | 53 | 24 |
| 167 | Articuno | 57 | 24 |
| 168 | Jumpluff | 54 | 24 |
| 169 | Shedinja | 62 | 24 |
| 170 | Rotom | 45 | 24 |
| 171 | Butterfree | 61 | 23 |
| 172 | Dugtrio | 58 | 22 |
| 173 | Moltres | 52 | 22 |
| 174 | Staraptor | 52 | 22 |
| 175 | Ninjask | 61 | 21 |
| 176 | Hippopotas | 46 | 21 |
| 177 | Shuckle | 53 | 21 |
+------+------------+----------+----------+
177 rows
Code:
+------+-----------+----------+----------+
| | | | Very |
| | | Total | Good |
| | CAP | Moves | Moves |
+------+-----------+----------+----------+
| 1 | Krilowatt | 107 | 54 |
| 2 | Cyclohm | 92 | 51 |
| 3 | Pyroak | 95 | 51 |
| 4 | Syclant | 97 | 50 |
| 5 | Stratagem | 86 | 48 |
| 6 | Kitsunoh | 94 | 47 |
| 7 | Colossoil | 87 | 47 |
| 8 | Arghonaut | 96 | 45 |
| 9 | Fidgit | 95 | 42 |
| 10 | Revenankh | 79 | 40 |
+------+-----------+----------+----------+
Code:
+---------+---------+---------+
| Average | Average | Average |
| Good | OU | CAP |
| Pokemon | Pokemon | Pokemon |
+---------+---------+---------+
| 33.8870 | 35.3600 | 47.5000 |
+---------+---------+---------+
Code:
+--------------+----------+--------------+------------+--------------+
| VG Move 1 | M1 Count | VG Move 2 | Pair Count | Pair Percent |
+--------------+----------+--------------+------------+--------------+
| Blizzard | 73 | Ice Beam | 72 | 99% |
| Brave Bird | 6 | Aerial Ace | 6 | 100% |
| Close Combat | 14 | Brick Break | 13 | 93% |
| Close Combat | 14 | Bulk Up | 13 | 93% |
| Close Combat | 14 | Earthquake | 13 | 93% |
| Close Combat | 14 | Rock Slide | 13 | 93% |
| Close Combat | 14 | Stone Edge | 13 | 93% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Brick Break | 9 | 100% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Earthquake | 9 | 100% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Focus Blast | 9 | 100% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Focus Punch | 9 | 100% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Rock Slide | 9 | 100% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Thunderpunch | 9 | 100% |
| Crunch | 31 | Roar | 28 | 90% |
| Discharge | 20 | Charge Beam | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Signal Beam | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Thunder | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Thunder Wave | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Thunderbolt | 20 | 100% |
| Draco Meteor | 13 | Aerial Ace | 12 | 92% |
| Draco Meteor | 13 | Dragon Claw | 12 | 92% |
| Draco Meteor | 13 | Dragon Pulse | 13 | 100% |
| Draco Meteor | 13 | Earthquake | 12 | 92% |
| Draco Meteor | 13 | Outrage | 13 | 100% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Aerial Ace | 20 | 100% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Dragon Pulse | 20 | 100% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Earthquake | 20 | 100% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Roar | 19 | 95% |
| Dragon Pulse | 33 | Roar | 30 | 91% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Body Slam | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Dragon Pulse | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Earthquake | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Fire Blast | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Flamethrower | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Outrage | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Roar | 8 | 100% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Body Slam | 58 | 94% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Brick Break | 60 | 97% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Counter | 56 | 90% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Focus Blast | 57 | 92% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Focus Punch | 59 | 95% |
| Fire Blast | 50 | Flamethrower | 50 | 100% |
| Flamethrower | 52 | Fire Blast | 50 | 96% |
| Flare Blitz | 8 | Fire Blast | 8 | 100% |
| Flare Blitz | 8 | Flamethrower | 8 | 100% |
| Flare Blitz | 8 | Heat Wave | 8 | 100% |
| Flare Blitz | 8 | Overheat | 8 | 100% |
| Flare Blitz | 8 | Will-o-wisp | 8 | 100% |
| Focus Blast | 72 | Brick Break | 69 | 96% |
| Focus Blast | 72 | Focus Punch | 68 | 94% |
| Focus Punch | 73 | Brick Break | 70 | 96% |
| Focus Punch | 73 | Focus Blast | 68 | 93% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Blizzard | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Ice Beam | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Surf | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Waterfall | 24 | 92% |
| Ice Beam | 79 | Blizzard | 72 | 91% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Earthquake | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Fire Blast | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Flamethrower | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Heat Wave | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Overheat | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Rock Slide | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Will-o-wisp | 6 | 100% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Energy Ball | 11 | 92% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Giga Drain | 11 | 92% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Grass Knot | 11 | 92% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Leech Seed | 11 | 92% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Seed Bomb | 11 | 92% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Swords Dance | 11 | 92% |
| Outrage | 37 | Earthquake | 34 | 92% |
| Overheat | 21 | Flamethrower | 19 | 90% |
| Stone Edge | 59 | Earthquake | 55 | 93% |
| Stone Edge | 59 | Rock Slide | 57 | 97% |
| Surf | 57 | Ice Beam | 53 | 93% |
| Thunder | 77 | Thunderbolt | 77 | 100% |
| Thunderbolt | 80 | Thunder | 77 | 96% |
| Waterfall | 36 | Blizzard | 34 | 94% |
| Waterfall | 36 | Ice Beam | 36 | 100% |
| Waterfall | 36 | Surf | 36 | 100% |
| X-Scissor | 20 | Swords Dance | 19 | 95% |
+--------------+----------+--------------+------------+--------------+
81 rowsI'm not exactly sure of what I'm proposing with very good moves. I just wanted to get the stats out there, and get some feedback.
I like the new list of "Very Good Moves" a lot, from what I can see all of them should be at the very least somewhat viable on any competitive Pokemon with the right kind of stat distribution (unless you have something like Meditate+Swords Dance, where one move outclasses the other).
And with an old BSR/BST/Usage comparison sheet I had.. have some more stats. :)
Usage is from a few months ago, and I removed Ubers since we're not aiming to copy them (and this is to get an idea of the linked BSR/Movepool limits). Can be sorted by whatever, if wanted. Sure RD will have fun making extra stats :)
Edit: there is a problem with the bsrs, i was using the old formula or something. Still, BST/slightly dated usage Usage is something. I'll try and fix the BSR column and add that when I get a chance. Thanks to RD for pointing it out.
So, yes. I like the idea of linked limits and the new good moves list, would prefer to have community decide but the TL should be listening closely to them anyway so it's not too bad for it to be TLs choice, should probably allow some flexibility in the limits (e.g. if we want to use Wonder Guard, probably best to use a lower BSR/Movepool combo), but they will help a lot overall.
And with an old BSR/BST/Usage comparison sheet I had.. have some more stats. :)
Usage is from a few months ago, and I removed Ubers since we're not aiming to copy them (and this is to get an idea of the linked BSR/Movepool limits). Can be sorted by whatever, if wanted. Sure RD will have fun making extra stats :)
Edit: there is a problem with the bsrs, i was using the old formula or something. Still, BST/slightly dated usage Usage is something. I'll try and fix the BSR column and add that when I get a chance. Thanks to RD for pointing it out.
Code:
Pokemon | M | VGM| BST | Usage
Scizor | 69 | 32 | 500 | 217219
Tyranitar | 95 | 53 | 600 | 168542
Salamence | 76 | 36 | 600 | 167840
Heatran | 57 | 31 | 600 | 161064
Gyarados | 66 | 36 | 540 | 152909
Jirachi | 76 | 39 | 600 | 140890
Metagross | 70 | 41 | 600 | 135745
Gengar | 84 | 47 | 500 | 128249
Swampert | 83 | 38 | 535 | 110599
Lucario | 84 | 44 | 525 | 108579
Infernape | 82 | 43 | 534 | 107548
Starmie | 64 | 33 | 520 | 107524
Blissey | 100| 46 | 540 | 91560
Gliscor | 81 | 39 | 510 | 87757
Azelf | 68 | 38 | 580 | 82044
Magnezone | 57 | 27 | 535 | 78160
Skarmory | 70 | 30 | 465 | 74714
Vaporeon | 69 | 29 | 525 | 72901
Suicune | 60 | 26 | 580 | 68829
Breloom | 78 | 34 | 460 | 68472
Machamp | 74 | 38 | 505 | 64431
Flygon | 72 | 30 | 520 | 62374
Celebi | 74 | 37 | 600 | 57877
Zapdos | 57 | 26 | 580 | 56763
Dragonite | 89 | 47 | 600 | 53758
Jolteon | 66 | 29 | 525 | 51481
Forretress | 62 | 31 | 465 | 51447
Kingdra | 57 | 26 | 540 | 50355
Empoleon | 78 | 33 | 530 | 49918
Bronzong | 63 | 33 | 500 | 48265
Togekiss | 95 | 42 | 545 | 47223
Electivire | 73 | 38 | 540 | 43999
Aerodactyl | 73 | 37 | 515 | 41911
Snorlax | 90 | 46 | 540 | 40043
Weavile | 88 | 39 | 510 | 38934
Roserade | 68 | 29 | 505 | 38421
Mamoswine | 68 | 28 | 530 | 34220
Dusknoir | 90 | 45 | 525 | 33742
Tentacruel | 57 | 27 | 515 | 33361
Hippowdon | 53 | 27 | 525 | 31799
Ninjask | 61 | 21 | 456 | 30891
Heracross | 64 | 30 | 500 | 28882
Porygon-Z | 64 | 32 | 535 | 24276
Cresselia | 56 | 28 | 600 | 21972
Uxie | 64 | 34 | 580 | 21243
Umbreon | 69 | 27 | 525 | 20414
Porygon2 | 60 | 30 | 515 | 20397
Dugtrio | 58 | 22 | 405 | 18863
Crobat | 68 | 35 | 535 | 18290
Abomasnow | 66 | 31 | 494 | 18281
Rhyperior | 100| 55 | 535 | 17675
Alakazam | 79 | 37 | 490 | 17105
Arcanine | 60 | 27 | 555 | 16632
Ambipom | 86 | 37 | 482 | 15645
Froslass | 70 | 33 | 480 | 15297
Yanmega | 64 | 25 | 515 | 15006
Milotic | 60 | 29 | 540 | 14986
Raikou | 55 | 28 | 580 | 14865
Gallade | 104| 51 | 518 | 13902
Clefable | 106| 49 | 473 | 13651
Ludicolo | 79 | 34 | 480 | 12927
Sceptile | 87 | 39 | 530 | 12891
Donphan | 68 | 30 | 500 | 12828
Charizard | 90 | 41 | 534 | 12703
Spiritomb | 57 | 27 | 485 | 12348
Claydol | 66 | 34 | 500 | 12265
Registeel | 69 | 35 | 580 | 12099
Walrein | 65 | 29 | 530 | 11466
Honchkrow | 74 | 33 | 505 | 11380
Hitmontop | 64 | 31 | 455 | 11371
Blastoise | 84 | 42 | 530 | 11066
Mismagius | 74 | 34 | 495 | 10962
Weezing | 60 | 28 | 490 | 10585
Shaymin | 53 | 25 | 600 | 10379
Slowbro | 90 | 41 | 490 | 10297
Venusaur | 68 | 27 | 525 | 10288
Feraligatr | 84 | 39 | 530 | 10108
Lanturn | 62 | 29 | 460 | 9215
Cradily | 61 | 28 | 495 | 9140
Kabutops | 78 | 34 | 495 | 8834
Azumarill | 77 | 34 | 410 | 8582
Shuckle | 53 | 21 | 505 | 8189
Aggron | 98 | 52 | 530 | 8096
Blaziken | 87 | 43 | 530 | 8009
Typhlosion | 75 | 33 | 534 | 7835
Absol | 94 | 46 | 465 | 7702
Electrode | 45 | 25 | 480 | 7646
Steelix | 74 | 35 | 510 | 7615
Marowak | 81 | 36 | 425 | 7333
Houndoom | 69 | 30 | 500 | 7066
Medicham | 81 | 41 | 410 | 6936
Moltres | 52 | 22 | 580 | 6797
Staraptor | 52 | 22 | 475 | 6673
Magmortar | 71 | 34 | 540 | 6669
Tangrowth | 75 | 32 | 535 | 6668
Espeon | 68 | 27 | 525 | 6563
Gardevoir | 80 | 38 | 518 | 6269
Shedinja | 62 | 24 | 236 | 6213
Drapion | 73 | 38 | 500 | 6075
Torterra | 70 | 32 | 525 | 5953
Lapras | 69 | 35 | 535 | 5897
Slowking | 92 | 42 | 490 | 5689
Poliwrath | 78 | 36 | 500 | 5508
Miltank | 76 | 37 | 490 | 5506
Ursaring | 87 | 39 | 500 | 5498
Swellow | 57 | 25 | 430 | 5442
Glaceon | 63 | 27 | 525 | 5435
Toxicroak | 77 | 39 | 490 | 5153
Quagsire | 77 | 34 | 430 | 5059
Hariyama | 76 | 39 | 474 | 4975
Nidoking | 98 | 46 | 495 | 4948
Mr. Mime | 93 | 44 | 460 | 4942
Cacturne | 76 | 34 | 475 | 4841
Hitmonlee | 70 | 35 | 455 | 4822
Rampardos | 80 | 42 | 495 | 4753
Floatzel | 65 | 31 | 495 | 4658
Nidoqueen | 96 | 47 | 495 | 4634
Jumpluff | 54 | 24 | 450 | 4591
Ninetales | 59 | 27 | 505 | 4510
Primeape | 88 | 42 | 455 | 4438
Exeggutor | 69 | 33 | 520 | 4400
Qwilfish | 66 | 34 | 430 | 4374
Cloyster | 58 | 25 | 525 | 4300
Drifblim | 69 | 31 | 498 | 4239
Omastar | 67 | 29 | 495 | 4195
Tauros | 61 | 29 | 490 | 4117
Gastrodon | 58 | 27 | 475 | 3757
Lickilicky | 92 | 42 | 515 | 3583
Leafeon | 68 | 27 | 525 | 3519
Regirock | 69 | 35 | 580 | 3436
Linoone | 73 | 27 | 420 | 3364
Slaking | 82 | 42 | 670 | 3359
Muk | 76 | 40 | 500 | 3326
Banette | 71 | 32 | 455 | 3235
Sandslash | 68 | 30 | 450 | 3177
Mesprit | 64 | 34 | 580 | 3148
Hitmonchan | 66 | 32 | 455 | 3087
Persian | 81 | 27 | 440 | 2926
Meganium | 63 | 25 | 525 | 2853
Pikachu | 76 | 35 | 300 | 2712
Lopunny | 73 | 34 | 480 | 2689
Kangaskhan | 96 | 44 | 490 | 2687
Scyther | 60 | 28 | 500 | 2647
Hypno | 78 | 38 | 483 | 2605
Gorebyss | 57 | 27 | 485 | 2545
Pinsir | 64 | 27 | 500 | 2545
Camerupt | 65 | 29 | 460 | 2540
Relicanth | 61 | 27 | 485 | 2510
Regice | 68 | 37 | 580 | 2492
Butterfree | 61 | 23 | 385 | 2425
Sharpedo | 70 | 31 | 460 | 2369
Altaria | 74 | 32 | 490 | 2342
Articuno | 57 | 24 | 580 | 2326
Bibarel | 70 | 30 | 410 | 2106
Ampharos | 66 | 31 | 500 | 2035
Torkoal | 58 | 29 | 470 | 2028
Manectric | 57 | 30 | 475 | 1999
Magneton | 54 | 25 | 465 | 1911
Raichu | 80 | 37 | 475 | 1827
Venomoth | 61 | 26 | 450 | 1754
Chansey | 98 | 44 | 450 | 1670
Rotom | 45 | 24 | 440 | 1304
Hippopotas | 46 | 21 | 330 | 178
Snover | 53 | 24 | 334 | 163Conclusion
Here is the list of BSR-Movepool relationships that we "suggest" for CAP pokemon.
If the TL deviates from these, there should be a strong competitive reason for it -- presumably because of some other limiting factor associated with the concept, typing or ability.
We will enforce the following Type-Move Combinations on every movepool:
We will enforce the following Very Good Move Combinations on all movepools:
- Change the process and set Stat and Movepool limits in a single step towards the beginning of the project.
- Movepool limits will be based on Total Moves and V.Good Moves. Type-Move combos and Move-Move combos will also be enforced.
- List a table of BSR/Movepool combinations, that are inversely proportional. Encourage the TL to use the combinations, but don't force it
- The TL will set the Stat limits and Movepool limits at the conclusion of the step.
Here is the list of BSR-Movepool relationships that we "suggest" for CAP pokemon.
Code:
+----------------------------------------------+ +----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Base Stats Rating | | Movepool |
+---------------+-------+----------------------+ +---------------+-------------+----------+-----------------------+
| Description | Limit | Examples | | Description | Total Moves | VG Moves | Examples |
+---------------+-------+----------------------+ +---------------+-------------+----------+-----------------------+
| Above Average | 250 | Spiritomb, Azumarill | --> | Fantastic | 95 | 45 | Tyranitar, Togekiss |
| Good | 300 | Swampert, Gliscor | --> | Excellent | 85 | 40 | Sceptile, Swampert |
| Very Good | 350 | Infernape, Lucario | --> | Very Good | 75 | 35 | Mismagius, Steelix |
| Excellent | 400 | Mew, Heatran | --> | Good | 65 | 30 | Walrein, Heracross |
| Fantastic | 450 | Deoxys, Garchomp | --> | Above Average | 55 | 25 | Jumpluff, Swellow |
+---------------------+------------------------+ +---------------+-------------+----------+-----------------------+We will enforce the following Type-Move Combinations on every movepool:
Code:
+----------+------------+--------------+------------+--------------+
| Type | Type Count | Move | Pair Count | Pair Percent |
+----------+------------+--------------+------------+--------------+
| bug | 11 | Double-edge | 11 | 100% |
| bug | 11 | Sunny Day | 11 | 100% |
| dark | 11 | Dark Pulse | 11 | 100% |
| dark | 11 | Mud-Slap | 10 | 91% |
| dark | 11 | Payback | 10 | 91% |
| dark | 11 | Sunny Day | 10 | 91% |
| dark | 11 | Taunt | 10 | 91% |
| dragon | 12 | Aerial Ace | 11 | 92% |
| dragon | 12 | Draco Meteor | 12 | 100% |
| dragon | 12 | Dragon Claw | 11 | 92% |
| dragon | 12 | Dragon Pulse | 12 | 100% |
| dragon | 12 | Earthquake | 11 | 92% |
| dragon | 12 | Mud-Slap | 11 | 92% |
| dragon | 12 | Outrage | 12 | 100% |
| dragon | 12 | Rain Dance | 11 | 92% |
| dragon | 12 | Sunny Day | 11 | 92% |
| dragon | 12 | Swift | 12 | 100% |
| electric | 18 | Charge Beam | 18 | 100% |
| electric | 18 | Discharge | 17 | 94% |
| electric | 18 | Light Screen | 17 | 94% |
| electric | 18 | Rain Dance | 18 | 100% |
| electric | 18 | Shock Wave | 18 | 100% |
| electric | 18 | Signal Beam | 18 | 100% |
| electric | 18 | Swift | 17 | 94% |
| electric | 18 | Thunder | 18 | 100% |
| electric | 18 | Thunder Wave | 18 | 100% |
| electric | 18 | Thunderbolt | 18 | 100% |
| fighting | 15 | Brick Break | 15 | 100% |
| fighting | 15 | Bulk Up | 15 | 100% |
| fighting | 15 | Focus Blast | 14 | 93% |
| fighting | 15 | Focus Punch | 14 | 93% |
| fighting | 15 | Mud-Slap | 14 | 93% |
| fighting | 15 | Rock Slide | 15 | 100% |
| fighting | 15 | Rock Smash | 15 | 100% |
| fighting | 15 | Sunny Day | 14 | 93% |
| fighting | 15 | Vacuum Wave | 15 | 100% |
| fire | 13 | Fire Blast | 13 | 100% |
| fire | 13 | Flamethrower | 13 | 100% |
| fire | 13 | Heat Wave | 13 | 100% |
| fire | 13 | Mud-Slap | 12 | 92% |
| fire | 13 | Overheat | 13 | 100% |
| fire | 13 | Rock Smash | 12 | 92% |
| fire | 13 | Solarbeam | 13 | 100% |
| fire | 13 | Sunny Day | 13 | 100% |
| fire | 13 | Will-o-wisp | 13 | 100% |
| flying | 26 | Double-edge | 24 | 92% |
| flying | 26 | Sunny Day | 25 | 96% |
| flying | 26 | Swift | 24 | 92% |
| ghost | 15 | Dream Eater | 15 | 100% |
| ghost | 15 | Ominous Wind | 14 | 93% |
| ghost | 15 | Psych Up | 14 | 93% |
| ghost | 15 | Rain Dance | 14 | 93% |
| ghost | 15 | Shadow Ball | 15 | 100% |
| ghost | 15 | Sucker Punch | 14 | 93% |
| ghost | 15 | Sunny Day | 14 | 93% |
| ghost | 15 | Trick | 14 | 93% |
| ghost | 15 | Will-o-wisp | 14 | 93% |
| grass | 18 | Energy Ball | 18 | 100% |
| grass | 18 | Giga Drain | 18 | 100% |
| grass | 18 | Grass Knot | 18 | 100% |
| grass | 18 | Seed Bomb | 18 | 100% |
| grass | 18 | Solarbeam | 18 | 100% |
| grass | 18 | Swords Dance | 18 | 100% |
| grass | 18 | Synthesis | 18 | 100% |
| ground | 21 | Body Slam | 19 | 90% |
| ground | 21 | Double-edge | 20 | 95% |
| ground | 21 | Earth Power | 21 | 100% |
| ground | 21 | Earthquake | 21 | 100% |
| ground | 21 | Mud-Slap | 21 | 100% |
| ground | 21 | Rock Slide | 21 | 100% |
| ground | 21 | Rock Smash | 21 | 100% |
| ground | 21 | Sandstorm | 20 | 95% |
| ground | 21 | Stone Edge | 20 | 95% |
| ice | 11 | Avalanche | 11 | 100% |
| ice | 11 | Blizzard | 11 | 100% |
| ice | 11 | Double-edge | 11 | 100% |
| ice | 11 | Hail | 11 | 100% |
| ice | 11 | Ice Beam | 11 | 100% |
| ice | 11 | Icy Wind | 11 | 100% |
| ice | 11 | Rain Dance | 11 | 100% |
| normal | 21 | Double-edge | 20 | 95% |
| normal | 21 | Rain Dance | 21 | 100% |
| normal | 21 | Sunny Day | 21 | 100% |
| poison | 13 | Sludge Bomb | 13 | 100% |
| psychic | 28 | Dream Eater | 26 | 93% |
| psychic | 28 | Grass Knot | 26 | 93% |
| psychic | 28 | Light Screen | 27 | 96% |
| psychic | 28 | Psych Up | 27 | 96% |
| psychic | 28 | Psychic | 27 | 96% |
| psychic | 28 | Rain Dance | 26 | 93% |
| psychic | 28 | Sunny Day | 26 | 93% |
| psychic | 28 | Trick | 26 | 93% |
| psychic | 28 | Zen Headbutt | 26 | 93% |
| rock | 11 | Ancientpower | 11 | 100% |
| rock | 11 | Double-edge | 11 | 100% |
| rock | 11 | Earth Power | 11 | 100% |
| rock | 11 | Mud-Slap | 10 | 91% |
| rock | 11 | Rock Polish | 11 | 100% |
| rock | 11 | Rock Slide | 11 | 100% |
| rock | 11 | Rock Smash | 11 | 100% |
| rock | 11 | Sandstorm | 11 | 100% |
| rock | 11 | Stealth Rock | 11 | 100% |
| rock | 11 | Stone Edge | 11 | 100% |
| steel | 15 | Flash Cannon | 15 | 100% |
| steel | 15 | Iron Defense | 14 | 93% |
| steel | 15 | Sunny Day | 14 | 93% |
| water | 33 | Blizzard | 33 | 100% |
| water | 33 | Hail | 32 | 97% |
| water | 33 | Ice Beam | 33 | 100% |
| water | 33 | Icy Wind | 32 | 97% |
| water | 33 | Rain Dance | 33 | 100% |
| water | 33 | Surf | 33 | 100% |
| water | 33 | Water Pulse | 33 | 100% |
+----------+------------+--------------+------------+--------------+
113 rows
Code:
+--------------+----------+--------------+------------+--------------+
| VG Move 1 | M1 Count | VG Move 2 | Pair Count | Pair Percent |
+--------------+----------+--------------+------------+--------------+
| Blizzard | 73 | Ice Beam | 72 | 99% |
| Brave Bird | 6 | Aerial Ace | 6 | 100% |
| Close Combat | 14 | Brick Break | 13 | 93% |
| Close Combat | 14 | Bulk Up | 13 | 93% |
| Close Combat | 14 | Earthquake | 13 | 93% |
| Close Combat | 14 | Rock Slide | 13 | 93% |
| Close Combat | 14 | Stone Edge | 13 | 93% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Brick Break | 9 | 100% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Earthquake | 9 | 100% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Focus Blast | 9 | 100% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Focus Punch | 9 | 100% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Rock Slide | 9 | 100% |
| Cross Chop | 9 | Thunderpunch | 9 | 100% |
| Crunch | 31 | Roar | 28 | 90% |
| Discharge | 20 | Charge Beam | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Signal Beam | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Thunder | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Thunder Wave | 20 | 100% |
| Discharge | 20 | Thunderbolt | 20 | 100% |
| Draco Meteor | 13 | Aerial Ace | 12 | 92% |
| Draco Meteor | 13 | Dragon Claw | 12 | 92% |
| Draco Meteor | 13 | Dragon Pulse | 13 | 100% |
| Draco Meteor | 13 | Earthquake | 12 | 92% |
| Draco Meteor | 13 | Outrage | 13 | 100% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Aerial Ace | 20 | 100% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Dragon Pulse | 20 | 100% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Earthquake | 20 | 100% |
| Dragon Claw | 20 | Roar | 19 | 95% |
| Dragon Pulse | 33 | Roar | 30 | 91% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Body Slam | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Dragon Pulse | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Earthquake | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Fire Blast | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Flamethrower | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Outrage | 8 | 100% |
| Dragon Rush | 8 | Roar | 8 | 100% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Body Slam | 58 | 94% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Brick Break | 60 | 97% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Counter | 56 | 90% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Focus Blast | 57 | 92% |
| Dynamicpunch | 62 | Focus Punch | 59 | 95% |
| Fire Blast | 50 | Flamethrower | 50 | 100% |
| Flamethrower | 52 | Fire Blast | 50 | 96% |
| Flare Blitz | 8 | Fire Blast | 8 | 100% |
| Flare Blitz | 8 | Flamethrower | 8 | 100% |
| Flare Blitz | 8 | Heat Wave | 8 | 100% |
| Flare Blitz | 8 | Overheat | 8 | 100% |
| Flare Blitz | 8 | Will-o-wisp | 8 | 100% |
| Focus Blast | 72 | Brick Break | 69 | 96% |
| Focus Blast | 72 | Focus Punch | 68 | 94% |
| Focus Punch | 73 | Brick Break | 70 | 96% |
| Focus Punch | 73 | Focus Blast | 68 | 93% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Blizzard | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Ice Beam | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Surf | 24 | 92% |
| Hydro Pump | 26 | Waterfall | 24 | 92% |
| Ice Beam | 79 | Blizzard | 72 | 91% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Earthquake | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Fire Blast | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Flamethrower | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Heat Wave | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Overheat | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Rock Slide | 6 | 100% |
| Lava Plume | 6 | Will-o-wisp | 6 | 100% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Energy Ball | 11 | 92% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Giga Drain | 11 | 92% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Grass Knot | 11 | 92% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Leech Seed | 11 | 92% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Seed Bomb | 11 | 92% |
| Leaf Storm | 12 | Swords Dance | 11 | 92% |
| Outrage | 37 | Earthquake | 34 | 92% |
| Overheat | 21 | Flamethrower | 19 | 90% |
| Stone Edge | 59 | Earthquake | 55 | 93% |
| Stone Edge | 59 | Rock Slide | 57 | 97% |
| Surf | 57 | Ice Beam | 53 | 93% |
| Thunder | 77 | Thunderbolt | 77 | 100% |
| Thunderbolt | 80 | Thunder | 77 | 96% |
| Waterfall | 36 | Blizzard | 34 | 94% |
| Waterfall | 36 | Ice Beam | 36 | 100% |
| Waterfall | 36 | Surf | 36 | 100% |
| X-Scissor | 20 | Swords Dance | 19 | 95% |
+--------------+----------+--------------+------------+--------------+
81 rows- Status